>Sablenite is not banned
>Shadow Tag is banned
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-suspect-process-round-5-voting.3558425/page-8#post-6568060
Good. That's the result I was hoping for.
>>24810059
WE LOST BROS
>>24810059
>sablenite cutting it close
wew
>>24810059
All according to keikaku. Time to cut some Pursuit trappers.
I can feel the Manaphy suspect coming now though, since it wipes the floor with stall.
>>24810059
thank god
my clef isn't at risk against sableye teams anymore so whatever
that's pretty much what I expected and agree with.
>>24810059
Perfect, Smogon's first rational decision since banning Mega Kangaskhan
>>24810059
Maybe sableye won't be cancer now that its checks can come in safely. But didn't mega charizard totally counter it in every way?
What about other pokemon? I'd imagine strong physical attackerss immune to wilowisp would stomp that core.
>>24810059
Everything is as it should be
Shadow Tag is cancer in its purest form
>>24810161
They also recently allowed non-Mega Pokémon in lower tiers.
>>24810250
Foul Play hits X hard. Chansey hard-walls Y. Quagsire is the proper X switch-in.
>>24810090
Manaphy is the most likely cadndate, even though I would hardly say it mops the floor.
>Rain Dance+3 Attacks is weak.
>Rain Dance+2 Attacks can be walled by either Ferrothorn, Venusaur, or even Zapdos.
>Tail Glow+3 Attacks can be Paralyzed.
>Calm Mind is shit.
Tbqh familia I think the next test will beto bring Blaziken back.
>>24810359
Now that megas are tiered differently, the Baton Pass rules are so specific and there's a STAB 120BP priority flying move going around, there's no reason Blaziken should still be uber.and neither should the mega
Because Wobbuffet really need another nerf.
>>24810359
Calm Mind is fucking amazing against Stall and offense. It only struggles against teams with proper stops like Water Absorb or Encore or really strong, faster Physical Attackers which you shouldn't try to be setting up on anyway.
>>24810359
It's time to retest Genesect too. xDDDDD
>>24810359
Well, I particularly said it wiped the floor with stall, due to the playstyle's passiveness. The only 'sure' answer stall has with Goth gone is SpDef Unaware Clefable, who can be pressured immensely by its recovery PP and Scald burns.
In general, the trouble with Manaphy is not knowing what set it's running, since making a wrong move gives it a free turn of setup or lets it hit a coverage move on you. HO usually doesn't mind it since things like Latios and Raikou can dance around it, but the surprise factor against balance (and potential to sweep) and the panic it instills in stall definitely raise eyebrows.
Blaziken won't come back for the same reason Aegislash won't (and beyond). It's too centralizing. You'll get Slowbro and Starmie and Lati@s in a greater abundance. And guess who'd love to play with these switch-ins?
Just for reference, Metagross was:
>Number of eligible voters: 335
>Number of votes: 314
>Ban: 180 (57,3%)
>Do Not Ban: 134 (42,7%)
>>24810421
It's not about Wob. Wobb is nowhere near as fucking gay as Gothitelle (but it's still annoying and can abuse its ability. A full ban makes more sense, since we all know that Stallfags will end up resorting to things like Gothorita and shit given the chance)
>>24810421
Wobbuffet is garbage anyway, no one used it.
Just shows you how cancerous Smogon and Showdown is. Judging by the discussion thread, it was obviously leaning towards no-ban on Sablenite with most well thought out discussions being in favor of keeping him OU. But then all the brazilian sperglords came out of nowhere and started voting for Sablenite bans. Probably couldn't form a proper arguement other than "muh stealth rocks"
Good lord, the shadowtag is shit is gone for good.
To really add insult to injury, someone make a thread teaching the 53% that voted against Sablenite on how to counter a Pokemon that's weak to half of the metagame
>ban shadow tag with no care for collateral
>don't just ban protean
>don't just ban speed boost
>don't just ban sheer force
lol consistency.
BUT MUH STONES
>>24810703
Because Shadow Tag is broken. It removes the competitive aspect of switching from the game. Same with Moody. It makes the controlling factor of the game luck.
Sheer Force I shouldn't have to explain. Tauros isn't broken despite Sheer Force. It's not inherently broken.
Speed Boost isn't either. It's good but relies on the Pokemon's stats and movepool to actually do anything.
Protean is on Kecleon too. Yeah it's a fucking amazing ability but it's just the icing on the cake for Greninja's 122 Speed and deep as fuck movepool. It's not the broken part.
>My mono psychic team is now kill
Fuck you guys.
Why not just ban Shadow Tag Gothitelle? What the fuck? Why ban Shadow Tag 100%? Now Wobbuffet and Gothitelle are worthless.
>>24811212
Shadow Tag was already banned in UU and below, so Wobb and Goth were already worthless in every tier below OU.
>>24811226
And now they're worthless in OU too.
>Smogautists killed my favorite pokemon
Well fuck you too then.
>Seriously expecting Smogon to ban M-Sableye when it's on so many stall teams and Smogon loves stall
>Expecting them to not ban Gothitelle when they hate it because it fucks over their Ferrothorn
>>24810465
Gothorita is a four foot tall little girl with a defense of 70. If you can't deal with shadow tag gothorita, you don't deserve to win.
Should have been a Gothitelle suspect from the start, but this was the best outcome given the options. Now Wobb is rendered useless even though everyone agreed that the problem was with the Goth line.
>but shadow tag is uncompetitive
True, but the ban isn't practical. As retarded as the ability is, it's simply not close to broken on Wobbuffet and Wynaut, It just makes more sense to ban the broken abuser(s) than to completely ban the ability.
>but that would take gothitelle/gothorita from the lower tiers
Nobody used them without Shadow Tag anyways, the difference is that banning Shadow Tag takes away a legitimate set while banning Goths leaves them around.
>>24810475
It was C+ or B- before the suspect test, it was legitimately useful. Really nice on/against offense.
>>24811288
You do realize that they were suspected because of Gothitelle+Sableye stall teams, right?
Wobbuffet was my Sableye/M-Sableye counter. Now I've got nothing.
Thanks Smogon.
>>24811288
>expecting people to ban an entire playstyle just because they don't like it
Gothitelle was broken. Sableye was not. That is all I took into consideration when voting.
Remember when they suspected Metagross, and later it turned out to be just average?
It sucks that there's nowhere else to play singles. I miss ADV when people just adapted.
>>24811357
>oh no I can't mindlessly throw out my Ferrothorn anymore
Could literally just ban Goth line with Trick instead of an entire ability.
>>24811370
Difference being that they actually let this go for quite a long time before the suspect. There's no way to adapt to something that traps you without running 6 things that beat it which doesn't make sense.
>>24811375
Shadow Tag is cancer and removes a fundamental part of the game
>>24811393
I think Gale Wings Talonflame is cancer but you don't see me asking for it to be banned. I think genies are cancer but they're still on every team.
How many mons have Shadow Tag? Like three? And one is banished to Ubers, one only gets five moves ever, and Goths are only a problem with Trick, which is effective one time.
All you had to do was ban Goths with Trick. Whatever happened to Smogon bitching about "collateral damage?"
>>24811330
0/10
>>24811375
>I'll just defeat Gothitelle by never sending out or attacking with anything that it beats! Stupid Smogon!
>>24811330
You must be over 18 to post here fucktard
>>24811385
Yeah, that's point of using Gothitelle. What's the problem again?
>>24811428
>"I'll just defeat Talonflame by never using something weak to flying! Stupid Smogon!"
>>24811436
Being able to switch out of a bad match-up into a favorable one is a fundamental part of the game
Being able to make a Pokemon that might present a problem to your team moot by simply trapping it is unacceptable
>>24811408
Gale Wings Talonflame doesn't remove a fundamental part of the game with no risk involved, Gothitelle does.
>banning a specific move on one Pokemon instead of banning it entirely
>trying this hard to defend your shitty waifu
>>24811459
So why not ban Infiltrator since it also removes a fundamental part of the game in using Substitute?
>>24811459
>Being able to switch out of a bad match-up into a favorable one is a fundamental part of the game
Abilities are also a fundamental part of the game and instead of accepting it, just ban it.
Smogon/10 reasoning.
>>24811472
>fundamental part of the game
>substitute
Pick one. Making one specific move useless is not at all similar to making an entire mechanic useless.
>>24811450
You can use something flying-weak with Talonflame around, you just need one of Talonflame's counters.
It doesn't matter if 5/6 of your team beats Gothitelle, if it ever switches in on that sixth mon you're going to lose it.
>>24811472
Substitute is not a fundamental part of the game. That is like saying Earthquake is a fundamental part of the game because it has been a popular move throughout generations.
Substitute is a popular move, switching your Pokemon is a core mechanic.
Might as well ban Hoopa because Hyperspace Hole bypasses Protect, removing a fundamental part of the game.
Ban Volt Switch and U-Turn since they let you attack while switching, removing a fundamental part of the game in making you choose whether to damage or switch.
Ban Infiltrator since it bypasses subs, ruining a fundamental part of the game.
Why is Talonflame being able to throw around 120BP STAB priority moves not banned?
Why are weather abilities not banned since they let you set up weather with no risk? It's all about risk, right?
>>24811505
Because they're not "uncompetitive", you see. You can beat those by throwing 6 OU together.
If something makes me think a bit on how I build my teams and how I play, then it's uncompetitive and should be banned.
>>24811550
You are absolutely retarded.
By your logic 90% of the pokemon in the game should be banned because almost every pokemon has a pokemon that counters it. In fact every fucking Smogon moveset page for a pokemon has an entire section on this at the bottom on what checks your mon.
Are you seriously telling me that when you were building a team, you never thought "well how am I gonna deal with Gliscor?" or genies or Talonflame or Ferrothorn, Slowbro, any number of OU mons? If you say yes you're a liar.
>This is the type of person who thinks they are entitled to decide how the game is played and what is fair
>>24811505
>>24811550
Samefag.
Protect/Sub aren't "fundamental parts of the game," you autist. Switching and attacking are fundamental to how the game is played, individual moves are not. I could explain this to a third grader, it's so basic.
You can counter Talonflame reasonably, you don't need to let something die every time it comes in (if you've prepared well for it).
>taking a turn to set up weather is the same as throwing Gothitelle at something until you trap it
It's funny that you're talking about lazy teambuilding when Gothitelle is the epitome of lazy play.
>opponent sends out Clefable
>switch in Gothitelle
>if they stay in they're crippled, if they don't they can't do anything useful or heal
>repeat until Clefable is dead/crippled
>>24811603
Smogonites are desperate. You're so afraid of actual competition, it shows.
>>24811550
Man, I'm sorry, I thought you were being serious.
This is how bad Smogon is.
>>24811630
>can't refute my argument
>YOU'RE JUST AFRAID OF COMPETITION :^)
Verlis pls go
>>24811630
Enjoy your groudon-deer-fug metagame
It's funny how VGC is going to let people run Mega Fug and Primals but Smogon is this upset over Gothitelle.
How long until the stag ban gets reversed again?
>>24811505
>protect is a fundamental part of the game
>in singles
Ayy lmao
>>24811187
wobb is broken confirmed.
>>24811705
Because GF doesn't even know their game and add things to break everything just because.
Can you just not double switch to bait in the Gothitelle, thus letting you kill it or immediately forcing it out to get a free hit on the next mon? Switch in Ferrothorn, then switch to Pursuit Bisharp and then laugh in the Gothitelle player's face while they have to decide between Knock Off or Pursuit?
>>24811459
>Being able to make a Pokemon that might present a problem to your team moot by simply trapping it is unacceptable
Yeah, they should ban Magnezone as well
>>24811757
Prediction goes both ways, they could double switch predicting Ferrothorn.
>>24811770
Except Magnezone traps one specific type of Pokemon while Goth can trap any non-ghost with varying success.
>>24811772
So then how is that not "random and luck" but Shadow Tag reduces the game to just luck? You guess every time you make any switch anyway.
>>24811773
Magnezone destroys two of the most prominent stallers in the game.
>Ferrothorn
>literally no answer
>rev up those Charge Beams
>Skarmory
>Nice bird you had there
There are so many other things that could have been done. Like just banning the Gothitelle line, or Shadow Tag on Gothitelle. Instead Wobbuffet is now banned.
>>24811784
Again, it traps them but only them. Goth can trap anything from Clefable to Manaphy if it needs to.
>There are so many other things that could have been done. Like just banning the Gothitelle line
Yes, they should have done this.
Just play VGC. Why are you still entertaining entitled babies who ban everything that beats them?
>>24811187
>because X is broken
More like, because wah wah I want my team of Landorus, Ferrothorn, Heatran and Chansey to always win if anyone can upset this core by adding an element of strategy (trapping) then it should be banned wah wah
Same reason baton pass was nerfed, same reason mgengar got banned, etc. etc.
>>24811825
>wanting to play VGC2016
I sure hope you like seeing Geomancy Xerneas and Primal Groudon/Primal Kyogre weather teams fucking everywhere
I don't actually play competitive pokemon
I just read these threads to laugh at and absorb all the butthurt
thx 4 reading my blog
>>24811833
>thinking that megagar was banned because it defeated some hypothetical "Smogon: The Team"
>being this delusional
>>24811187
>switching is a "competitive aspect"
I don't think I have ever laughed so hard at one post in my entire 20 year history on the Internet.
>>24811784
Unrelated, but I love using Bulldoze Ferrothorn. It's complete shit and a waste of moveset, but the fact that it trounces Magnezone and Heatran every now and then makes it all worth it.
>>24811466
Talonflame removes the speed stat.
>But you can run priority too!
You can also run a Ghost-type or use Shed Shell.
This is one of the few times i will be totally on board with a Smogon ban. Fuck that Perish Song strat that 70% of japs on battle spot use.
Now it's just time to unban Greninja, Blaziken, and Aegislash and i can start to fuck with Smogon again.
>>24811872
By your logic you should be complaining about extreme speed or something. It has fast priority, it doesn't "remove the speed stat." Meanwhile, Gothitelle does remove the option to switch unless you're using something like Shed Shell which is 100% useless in any other match-up.
Running a Ghost doesn't stop Gothitelle from trapping anything else on your team.
>>24811840
>wanting to play Smogon
I sure hope you like Landorus, Scizor and Garchomp teams everywhere.
>>24811851
Show us how superior you are for not playing the game
>>24811894
Extremespeed isn't common, Talonflame is. The only way to beat Talonflame without losing a Pokémon is to put a counter you're able to switch into on your team.
And by your logic, that deserves a ban, because that Pokémon isn't good against other Pokémon on the opponent's team so you shouldn't be forced to run it.
You're as retarded as Baton Pass ban advocaters.
>>24811885
>I agree with Smogon
>because they banned something I don't like
>that's impossible on singles
Literally what
>>24811935
>that's impossible on singles
The fuck are you on about?
>>24811925
>And by your logic, that deserves a ban, because that Pokémon isn't good against other Pokémon
But that's wrong you fucking retard.
Bulky grounds/waters + tyranitar are perfectly usable.
You're pretending that bringing a counter to a sweeper is the same as running a useless item on all of your Pokemon. It's a blatant false equivalency.
>>24811964
Maybe you should just run the item on the Pokémon most likely to receive a Goth switch-in.
Also how is it useless if it protects you from a major threat?
>>24811964
The bulkiest waters in the game still get hit for 50% by Talonflame. You have to chain switch to wear it down. You can chain switch to fuck Gothitelle.
You're just crying because now you can't just roll your core of Ferrothorn, a genie, and some other pseudo-legendary bullshit anymore. Now because of this borderline shitmon you have to think, and it scares you.
>>24811972
It's useless in every other match, why should you need to run an item that will be completely useless in 90% of your matches just to avoid getting cheesed by one Pokemon?
Would you run Scarf Golduck and act like Primal Groudon isn't broken?
>>24811925
>The only way to beat something is to have something that can stop it on your team
No fucking shit
Defensive counters to literally any set and can switch in throughout the game:
Rock attack Heatran
CM Manaphy
Rotom
Mega Slowbro
Rhyperior
Mega Ampharos
Quagsire
Defensive checks:
Stone Edge Hippo
Defensive Lando
Bulky Garchomp
Gliscor
Foul Play Sableye
Bulky Starmie
T-Tar
Offensive counters (can't switch in throughout the game, but can once or twice):
Diancie
Mega Manectric
Thundurus
Mega Aerodactyl
If you can't put one of these on your team, it's your fault.
>>24811986
People run Earth Power on M-Diancie literally just for the purpose of countering Heatran. Is Heatran broken? Should we ban that?
>>24811986
If it's just one Pokémon why don't you just ban that one Pokémon then instead of an entire fucking ability?
>>24811977
>The bulkiest waters in the game still get hit for 50% by Talonflame.
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 118-139 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
>You can chain switch to fuck Gothitelle.
If you mispredict once, you lose a Pokemon. If they mispredict, they lose almost nothing and can try again later; They still stopped you from accomplishing anything with X threat because you can't stay in for any reason.
>you're just mad because you can't use our ferrothorn team
Opinion discarded, kill yourself shitter.
>>24811996
>1 pokemon forces you to put one of 18 pokemon on your team
>totally fair I love my smogonbirb
>Gothitelle fucks dedicated stallers
>BAN THE ENTIRE ABILITY FUNDAMENTALLY RUINS THE GAME
>>24811925
>The only way to beat Talonflame without losing a Pokémon is to put a counter you're able to switch into on your team.
>The only way to beat Geodude without losing a Pokémon is to put a counter you're able to switch into on your team.
>You're as retarded as Baton Pass ban advocaters.
This sums you up. You were obviously one of the Baton Pass fags on Showdown getting easy wins by a stupid, cheap and mindless strategy that blames it on Smogon when they can no longer abuse broken strategies.
>>24812009
>implying I don't agree with that
There's nothing wrong with Wobbuffet and they should have banned Gothitelle and maybe Gothorita.
>>24812000
You don't need to run that though. You can run HP Fire and try to wear Heatran down or lure it with something else.
There's a difference between "I'll use a coverage move that hits X threat" and "If I don't use this otherwise useless item, this Pokemon will be rendered useless."
Earth Power isn't just for Heatran by the way.
>>24812028
>>Gothitelle fucks dedicated stallers
It's used BY stall, and it doesn't just fuck stall mons. Manaphy rapes your average stall team, but you don't need to even think about it because you can just Trick it a scarf and render it useless.
>>24812033
Keep sucking Smogon cock then, maybe they'll ban your least favorite Pokémon next so you can love them even more.
>>24811947
>Fuck that Perish Song strat that 70% of japs on battle spot use.
Last I knew Gothitelle and Wobbuffet couldn't learn Perish Song.
Reading is not that hard bud
>>24812063
Sucks that you can't just Tail Glow and win 6-0
>>24812063
Then ban Trick Gothitelle, or just Gothitelle. Ban Sableye and Gothitelle on the same team. There's a million other ways.
Face it, they fucked up.
>>24812088
Sucks that you can't just Trick and win 6-0
>>24812092
I am agreeing with you, they should have just banned Gothitelle.
See >>24812055
who's honestly surprised about Shadow Tag, smogonbabbies can't play the game without being able to play on auto pilot
>>24812028
You're missing the point. Those Pokemon are all COUNTERS. To ANY normal set. I didn't put in checks or lures.
Here goes:
Sash Alakazam
Azumarill
Scarf-Edge Bisharp
Sash Rock Tomb Breloom
Outrage Zard X
Dragonite without Rocks
Sand Rush Excadrill
Kyurem-B
Scarf Mag outside of Jolly Flare Blitz (Scarf Magneton beats this)
Any manaphy
Raikou
Regular Slowbro
Crawdaunt
Terrakion
Bolt Strike/Thunder Victini
Mega/Regular Gyarados
Mega Blastoise
Suicune
Mega Swampert
Zapdos
These all stop Talonflame in a 1v1, but can lose if it's already +2 or +4 or a rarer set. If you really don't want to lose to it, use one of the counters I listed. If not use one or two of these and still almost always beat it
>>24812108
Gothitelle teams are autopilot though.
You can just throw it at X threat until you trap it.
>>24812065
Ah yes, the answer you all resort to. By doing this you admit you're wrong.
>>24812099
Except you couldn't.
Now that Goth is gone you can go ahead with your HO braindead gameplay.
>>24812136
Found the stallfag that's mad about the ban
>>24812133
>Y-Y-You're wrong
Keep sucking Smogon cock then.
>>24812148
Provide a fucking response to what I said in the first place rather than 'keep sucking Smogon's cock'
>>24812136
Yes you could. Goth stall is cancer because you could trap almost anything that threatened you without thought. Easily as braindead as HO if not moreso.
>if you disagree with me you just want to spam X playstyle
>>24812168
You gave a shitty analogy about Geodude, I don't see what there is to reply to, you're just desperate to defend daddy Smogon.
>>24812181
You made it out to be some kind of terrible crime that the only way you could beat Talonflame is to have something that stops it. I pointed out that, in fact, you could use this logic with anything. Just because you need to have something to stop it doesn't mean it's broken.
Do you comprehend it now?
People like you are so unbelievably dumb.
>>24812201
You're complaining about how you need something to stop Gothitelle and that makes ti broken.
People run Shed Shell Skarmory sometimes to counter Magnezone, but it's perfectly fine because Magnezone doesn't affect YOUR team, isn't it?
>>24812118
only because the rest of smogon are either too shit or too lazy to actually learn how to adapt to it
>>24812261
There is no "adapting." It either traps and cripples you or it doesn't, the only way to "adapt" is to run Shed Shell, which is a complete waste against any team that isn't running Goth.
>>24812227
The fundamental difference between Gothitelle and Talonflame is that, even if you do have something that stops it, which isn't actually that hard to have, you can't fucking switch into it. And if you're implying that I should just run Shed Shell on literally everything, you're fucked in the head. If the approximately 1 in 20 chance of playing Gothitelle forces people to forgo items, then Gothitelle is broken and you are fueling my argument.
Beyond that, Megas can't hold Shed Shell anyway so it can still invalidate a ton of things.
The difference between Magnezone and Gothitelle is that Goth can trap almost everything that threatens Sableye stall (I could list them all but I don't want to). Magnezone only really traps Ferrothorn and Skarmory, neither of which are win conditions very often.
Imagine if Street Fighter introduce a character that prevented the opponent from blocking. How about Mario Kart having a character that was immune to items. That's what Shadow Tag is. It prevents a core game mechanic from being used.
>>24812319
Then ban that character.
What Smogon did is like if Street Fighter came out with a character who prevented characters from blocking by having a 0 frame command grab, so EVO banned command grabs, period.
>>24812352
No, what they did is ban something that has very little relevance to OU at all except in Gothitelle. They blocked it at the root because Stallfags might just go grab Trick Gothorita instead.
It's not like it has any relevant impact on the game other than the Gothitelle ban, and well, this issue would just keep coming up. Gengarite was the same. They stopped it at the source.
I know fuck all about Street Fighter but I'm assuming command grabs are more important to the game than just 5/721 of the character options.
>>24812284
>this one dimensional view on what "adapting" means
you'll never learn
>>24812386
I am so fuckign confused. What are you saying we should do outside of running Shed Shell on literally fucking everything? How else could we adapt?
>>24812382
M-Gengar is already banned.
Gothitelle was banned.
The only other Pokemon that aren't Goth line that have Shadow Tag are Wynaut and Wobbuffet.
Now you can't use Wobb in OU because Shadow Tag is banned, rather than Gothorita/Gothitelle. How is this not absolutely fucking stupid?
>>24812386
Explain exactly what you think could be done to adapt, I'm genuinely curious. Not using mons that can be trapped? Pursuit on every team? Completely changing playstyle?
>>24812418
What I'm saying is, in the future there will most likely be more Shadow Tag users added to the game. This ban stops that from the source.
Wobuffet is kinda dumb as well, but just nowhere near as easy to abuse as Gothitelle, nor does it trap as much. I think that it being gone isn't completely necessary, and I honestly don't care either way, but I can see where both sides are coming from. Like I said before, it doesn't really have a big impact on anything in OU.
>>24812284
>which is a complete waste against any team that isn't running Goth.
If Goth isn't everywhere, then it wasn't that strong to begin with. Why is Smogon banning what isn't broken?
>>24812454
So why not ban Magic Bounce and Contrary too? In the future I'm sure more pokemon will have those abilities and be stronger than Xatu and Espeon. Stop it at the source, right?
I'm fucking salty because I use Wobbuffet and now I can't because of shitters crying over Gothitelle, a pokemon you never see below 1500 ELO and even then see maybe once every 20-30 fights.
>>24812464
Usage =/= Power
Goth was usually found on one archetype (Sableye Stall), it's not as splashable as your average fat ground or Heatran. Naturally, it didn't get as much usage as them. Doesn't mean it wasn't brainless cancer.
>>24812407
>>24812423
adapting in smogon terms apparently means simple things like "what item or move should I change on the stuff I'm already comfortable using?" instead of looking at the bigger picture, like how you construct teams and even how the game is played. If your team auto loses because a Gothitelle traps you then who's to really blame except you and your team choices?
Smogon's biggest problem is they have passed down their 10 year+ old ideals and style of play onto newer players when it shouldn't even be relevant to newer games, eg. it's retarded that they still think needing to switch in a defensive counter 100% of the time is a fundamental part of singles in 2015
>>24812482
Because Magic Bounce and Contrary don't remove competitive aspects of the game. They are only broken with the correct thing behind them. Shadow Tag removes the ability to switch, and it applies to literally everything not Ghost. It's so broad and effective that it is inherently unhealthy. Shadow Tag on anything not called Wobbuffet or Unown (and maybe some other shits I can't think of) would instantly be banned. Wobb is pushing the line as well. I can see your side of the argument but you should try to see the other side of the argument as well.
>>24812512
The other side of the argument is retarded because there are a million ways they could have fixed this without banning the whole ability. Instead they went for the laziest, quickest, shittiest path.
>>24810059
>shadow tag banned
Lol. This is like banning Arena Trap in ADV because Dugtrio was a hundred times more common than Gothitelle was now.
>>24812503
Here's where you're wrong. You have 6 pokemon. What you're saying is we should dedicate minimum 2 of our 6 pokemon to absolutely, 100% countering a single team you would expect to counter once or twice every 30 or so battles. It's not feasible and makes you lose to other teams.
>>24810059
embarassing simulator and leadership
>>24812563
Just realised:
You can't counter Goth with just 2 Pokemon.
A lot of the time, you need 3, unless you can catch it on a switch, but this is usually a 50/50 situation.
Goth's most annoying feature was the fact that it could lock you into a move and, at the end, when your Pokemon was about to die, trick back the scarf and kill you, giving it the ability to then trap and cripple something else later.
This means that you need 2 stallbreakers. Almost every Stallbreaker is tricked or just Psychicd by Goth, and if not it usually gets Thunder waved anyway. So your first wallbreaker gets trapped. You have no option to switch, so you let it die.
Now, your plan comes into play. You send out your Pursuit trapper and remove the Gothitelle.
Now, you're all set. Except for the fact that you've lost your Stallbreaker so you can't actually break the stall team anymore.
So now, your final option comes into play. You have to take a second stallbreaker with you.
So you need a pursuit trapper and 2 stallbreakers to make sure you can usually beat Goth stall. Tell me that isn't being forced to bring a counterteam, and I know you karenfags or want-to-win-using-broken-and-overly-easy-strategies-fags hate this word, so i'll use it, overcentralizing.
What does uncompetetive ever means? They repeat this world over and over and never properly explain.
>>24812319
You mean a grappler? Because SF has those.
>>24811466
Strategic denial of a competitive aspect IS a competitive aspect in and of itself. Shadow Tag is is no less competitive than immunities or Knock Off.
>>24812720
It means that something takes away from skillful play.
Moody removes the competitive aspect of the game by making it about luck rather than skill.
Shadow Tag removes any kind of skillful choices because it removes the ability to switch.
Greninja, Landorus, Mega Lucario, Mega Kangaskhan etc. remove from skillful play because regardless of skill, they are able to win due to their inability to be countered/switched in on.
>>24812534
People would laugh at you so hard if you suggested that Dugtrio was broken.
Smogon just lost its way without chaos, jumpman and the rest.
>>24812738
Underrated post.
Who even cares about shitgon?
They have at least one of every mechanic banned at this point, even with the fucking stats themselves.
Face it, you don't even want to play these games. You just want to play baby chess.
people really need to settle finally on whether smogon bans things for "muh HO" or "muh stall"
it's getting annoying hearing it go back and forth
>>24812720
it's a catch-all phrase smogon uses when they can't form a proper argument against a Pokemon they don't like facing
>>24812534
>implying smogon didn't retroactively try to "fix" dead metagames for years now
it's only a matter of time
>there are people retarded enough to claim Gothitelle removal was not necessary
Banning Wobbuffet was questionable, but it was a choice of whether you want it gone from OU or non-STag Gothitelle from PU.
Remember: Why adapt when you can ban - the Smogon slogan
>>24812993
>j-just adapt to this ability that disallows the opponent from adapting!
>>24812984
>>24812919
>>24812534
People complain over Gothitelle for "crippling stuff" while Dugtrio just outright killed them. Not to mention there was no team preview so he came out of nowhere and suddenly your Tyranitar/Blissey/Heracross/Blaziken/whatever was gone.
>>24812993
But you can't adapt to this shit because it cripples you against teams that doesn't run it. Most people here really doesn't understand what meta game is.
And in case somebody had any doubts that /vp/ is the pinnacle of knowing shit about any pokemon-related topic, here we have a bunch of retatrds thinking that this series of bans favour stall.
>>24812563
You are still under the scrubby mindset that one particular Pokemon on your team needs to be a 100% guaranteed win against a certain Pokemon in order for it to be beatable at all times, that's just not how the game is played, and this is the case for any team strategy game where different things have different roles
Instead of thinking "wahh it can trick an item onto one of my pokemon" you should think about your strategy after Gothitelle has lost its purpose and becomes much shittier
>>24810059
What makes Shadow Tag so great????
You're saying Roar/Whirlwind/Dragon Tail/etc. can't counter it?
I seriously don't understand.
>>24811925
>2015+1
>still
>crying
>on
>based
>bird
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAND YOU FAGGOTS CALLED ME SHITTIER WHEN I TOLD YOU IT'S OU
>no even with gale wings Talonflame is a shitmon who's going to end UU
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH
>>24813286
they're just making up excuses like "pokemon with an ability that alters one of the game mechanics is uncompetitive" to ban shit they don't like battling against
there isn't any real sense or logic to it
>>24813323
people seriously thought talonflame was going to be bad?
i had to do a double take after I saw what it's hidden ability does for the first time
it was also the first Pokemon I ever IV bred in gen 6
>>24813344
You have no idea.
people here really thought it's not OU, hell, even Smogonfags didn't realised it at first.
This fucking thing was literally the best thing in early XY.
>keep sweeping 6-0 after a one sword dance
>going to lose 6-0, nope, Talonflame come out on Scizor, Sword Dance, proceed to sweep the entire team
That fucking moment i know this shit is the best bromon of all time.
>>24813355
it's top tier even today, it just found some different uses (stallbreaker set comes to mind)
i too love talonflame, it's very refreshing to see a competitively viable Pokemon that isn't a (pseudo)legendary and has a sweet design to boot
>MUH ROCKS
>MUH COMPETITIVE
>MUH EXCUSES
>>24813286
Sure, but it who says it's coming in on your phazer? Things like Manaphy and Clefable are common Goth targets, and they can't phaze it.
Also, if you don't phaze while it switches in, it can just Trick you.
>>24813457
Oh no I got a Choice Scarf it's all over ban pls
>>24813527
This is what makes me hate you anti-smogonfag-fags. You seriously have next to no knowledge on actual competitive battling.
>>24813081
This person is correct
>>24813344
Before its horribly broken hidden ability was revealed? Hell yeah, and for good reason. Without Gale Wings I doubt it would even be RU.
>>24813344
Without its HA no one thought it was going to be good, and that's very reasonable to think. Remember XY was only released in Japan like 3 days before everywhere else.
>People call Gothitelle braindead
>Because it shuts down Manaphy
>Manaphy isn't braindead
Oh no I can't Tail Glow and kill whole teams.
>>24813656
>>24813676
it was even well after we knew of its ability that people thought it would be shit, on Smogon at least because >muh stealth rock
>>24813677
I didn't want to do this but you've pushed me over the line
Here's a list of things that Gothitelle can cripple with Trick or kill with Psychic. This isn't even accounting for the fact that it runs Thunder Wave:
Tricked and crippled:
Azumarill
Bisharp
Celebi
Chansey
Clefable
DD Nite
Defensive Drill
Ferrothorn
Defensive Chomp
Gliscor
Defensive Tran
Hippo
Hoopa
Defensive Jirachi
Klefki
Lati@s
Manaphy
Mew
Rotom
Serperior
Skarmory
Slowbro
(especially Defensive) Starmie
Cleric Sylveon
Most Talonflames
Things it straight up traps and Psychics to death:
Breloom
LO Conk or weakened AV Conk
Keldeo
Lopunny (outspeeds Scarf but doesn't KO with Return)
Medi
Mega Venu
And those are just the things in OU it traps. So shut the fuck up about Manaphy.
>>24813694
Speaking of Stealth Rock, it was pretty reasonable to think that it would still be a pain in the ass to remove in Gen 6 before the Defog buff was revealed. That's also why most of us assumed Charizard was going to suck too.
>>24813641
Because I don't consider getting a Choice Scarf to be the end of the world?
>>24813774
You would depending on the move you chose after getting Tricked. Enjoy being locked into Swords Dance.
>>24813774
Because it completely breaks most Pokemon. If you don't understand that, you shouldn't be trying to voice your opinion on this topic.
Think about it. How can a stallbreaker break stall when it is locked into a single move? Stall has resists for everything.
>>24813677
I was using Manaphy as an example of something that usually gives stall trouble, but becomes completely useless while Goth is alive. Instead of thinking about how you deal with it (Running Unaware Clef+Ferrothorn, etc.) you can just slap Gothitelle on without a second thought.
>>24813774
>use a wallbreaker with a set up move to break stall
>gothitelle gives you a scarf
>no longer able to set up
>>24813701
Trapped and Killed:
Alakazam
Arcanine
Blaziken
Breloom
Celebi
Chansey
Entei
Espeon
Exeggutor
Gardevoir
Heracross
Houndoom
Jirachi
Jynx
Magneton
Medicham
Metagross
Raikou
Rhydon
Tyranitar
And those are just the OU and BL things it traps.
Where was the outrage?
>>24813792
>Think about it. How can a stallbreaker break stall when it is locked into a single move?
So you can't just slap a stall breaker in a team and expect it to kill every stall team? Geez, who would've guessed.
>Stall has resists for everything.
Yeah, that's the point of running stall.
>>24813838
Not to mention Magneton easily trapping and OHKOing Skarmory/Forretress which were integral to almost every defensive team
Smogon playerbase has just spiralled downwards into a community of lazy shitters
>ban shadow tag completely
>when there are only two pokemon with shadow tag and only one is a problem
>when wobbuffet is entirely balanced around having shadow tag and deliberately allows for adequate counterplay despite trapping the opponent
>refuse to ban baton pass entirely and instead place multiple complex restrictions on it because of "muh dry pass Celebi"
It should've been a sableye + gothitelle suspect, and if gothitelle got banned UU should've retested wobbuffet.
>>24813831
>b-but it's your fault for needing to set up!
>>24812028
>1 move (stealth rocks) requires you to put 1 of 6 pokemon (rapid spin) on your team in the previous generations
>1 move (stealth rocks) makes it such that 85% of bug, flying, fire and ice pokemon are completely unusable
>1 pokemon (landorus) puts just as much pressure on the metagame just by being so much better than most previous gen leads
Same shit, sorry son, but Smogon tolerates Landorus an Stealth Rocks because the people voting for this shit like easy thoughtless wins.
>>24813701
THEN BAN TRICK ON GOTHITELLE.
IT'S THAT EASY.
>>24813980
This is as dumb as the people trying to set up rocks against Sableye, having them bounced back then starting a suspect test because it's "uncompetitive".
>>24814008
>ban move+pokemon!
No.
>>24813985
>requires you to use a rapid spinner
No it doesn't, Spikes didn't either. It was nice, but not needed.
>stealth rock makes most rock-weak pokemon completely unusable
Name one. Name one Pokemon that isn't used for the sole reason that rocks destroy it.
>landorus is so much better than other leads
You're drastically overstating how good it is as a hazard setter. Garchomp, Clefable, Heatran, Hippo, and Ferrothorn are just as effective. Obviously it's good, but you're overplaying it.
>>24814056
How is banning a move on a pokemon worse than banning an entire ability?
How is that worse than banning any one pokemon or banning item+pokemon, which smogonshitters approve of?
>Name one. Name one Pokemon that isn't used for the sole reason that rocks destroy it.
Mega Beedrill.
>>24813838
you've literally never used dugtrio
>>24813838
>Breloom
>Celebi
>Chansey
>Exeggutor
>Heracross
>Medicham
>including Rhydon
Just stop talking.
>>24811833
Trapping is not a strategy
Arena Trap is fine because Flying-types/Levitate users are unaffected
Shadow Tag traps anything that isn't a Ghost-type
Combine this with Trick + Choice Scarf, and Goth is a one way death ticket for any non-attacker
>>24814064
>Mega Beedrill
>Not Articuno
Mega Beedrill gets plenty of use in UU. You just don't see it in OU because of Priority Bird in Jaguar
>>24814091
>arena trap is okay because it has a restriction
>shadow tag is broken because it has a different restriction
>>24814008
Complex bans are not allowed unless no simpler solution exists
Trick was the entire reason Goth was such a threat, without it, no one is going to use it anyway, hell, it already dropped to PU because Shadow Tag was banned in UU and below
No one is going to use Gothitelle without Trick, much like no one is going to use Blaziken withou Speed Boost, or Greninja without Torrent, so it's not worth doing a complex ban for
>>24814064
Banning move+pokemon opens pandora's box, where suddenly it's now okay to speculate rampantly about what wouldn't be broken with X move.
"Mewtwo wouldn't be broken without Recover, Genesect wouldn't be broken without U-turn, Zekrom isn't broken without Bolt Strike, etc."
You either ban X Pokemon, Y ability, or Z move. You don't ban X Pokemon with Y ability, or X Pokemon with Z move.
>or banning item+pokemon, which smogonshitters approve of?
What are you referring to, the mega stones? They're banned as a whole.
>Mega Beedrill
It does, in fact, get use. It's not top-tier OU for a number of reasons, from frailty to lack of coverage to competition for a slot.
>>24814097
So then ban Priority Bird too, why don't you?
>>24814104
It's worth doing a "complex ban" because banning Shadow Tag fucks over Wobbuffet too. In fact the "complex ban" isn't even complex. How in the fuck is banning Trick on one pokemon complex? Isn't Eviolite Slowbro banned?
>>24814083
I hope you know he was obviously talking about gen 3, though medicham and rhydon do win 1v1 if they're at full
>24814119
>Isn't Eviolite Slowbro banned?
No (You) for you.
>>24814119
>Isn't Eviolite Slowbro banned?
No? Slowbro is a fully evolved Pokemon, so Eviolite has no effect on it. Why would it be banned?
>>24814083
he forgot to specify it's ADV meta, it ran hp bug and aerial ace back then
still, the difference is that duggy can't even switch in on anything, you'll have to let something die first or make a very good double, whereas goth can come in on most mons it wants to trap, including flying/levitators, trick, let it struggle to death while keeping healthy with rest and repeat the process later
also some of these mons he listed like celebi, metagross and ttar had spreads to survive duggy eq and KO back and most others aren't relevant in that meta at all
>>24814119
Actually I wish they would ban Talonflame.
>>24814104
Should have been a gothitelle ban instead of a shadow tag ban honestly. Gothitelle and Wobbuffet are the only two shadow tag users, and wobbuffet is very specifically limited and meant to allow for counterplay despite shadow tag.
If Gothitelle were banned, wobbuffet could be retested for UU, especially now that megas and base forms were separated, putting pokemon like sableye in UU.
>>24814097
Articuno is horseshit, rocks or not. It's weak and slow with a bad typing.
>>24814076
Enough to tell you underage BW fags how retarded you are for crying over the smallest metagame changes.
>>24814083
Why, because it makes your scrubby ass uncomfortable?
It's almost funny how you cited the easiest targets for Dugtrio to trap and kill.
>>24814138
Shadow Tag was already banned in every tier below OU.
Because of this, Goth and Wobb were already in PU.
>>24814151
Shadow tag was only banned in UU and below BECAUSE of gothitelle though. If gothitelle was banned, UU could retest shadow tag because wobb is its only user.
>>24814101
>Number of Pokemon that are Flying-type or have Levitate: 126
>Number of Ghost-type Pokemon: 35 (of which only two (Gengar and Sableye) are viable in OU)
>>24814131
ADV didn't have team preview so it wasn't hard to switch in Dugtrio on a predicted Leech Seed from Celebi, Rock from Heracross, Thunder Wave from Blissey or whatever.
And those spreads were unreliable at best when it was so easy to set up Spikes.
I'd say Dugtrio was worse since ADV had a much tighter meta where you needed stuff alive to switch around and couldn't just priority spam out of a losing situation.
>>24814138
>>24814156
No UU player above 1400 elo would ever want to see Wobbuffet in the tier. It's stupidly bulky and easily removes most of the tier's offensive mons or turns them into setup fodder for a sweeper waiting in the back. The fact that it's legitimately usable in Ubers should speak miles about how good it is.
>>24811833
If you're arguing the fact that Mega Gengar was balanced enough to stay in any Singles format, you clearly have no experience playing against it.
I really don't know why Shadow Tag in its entirety was banned. Why not just ban Goth+Trick, or Gothitelle, or Shadow Tag Goth, or Goth and Sableye on the same team?
It's pathetic that people are trying to even defend this shit. You even have team preview now so you can see Goth coming, the thing is a total shitmon anyway except for the combination of these. Dugtrio was worse because you never knew if they even had it or not.
Apparently you only see Goth in 1 out of every 20 fights at worst too. Sometimes I run into Weavile and it hard counters a third of my team. Should we ban that too since it fucks you if you have genies?
Smogon has just gotten so fucking lazy.
>>24814204
>I really don't know why Shadow Tag in its entirety was banned
Because the ability is cancer, that's why
>>24814216
There is so much shit in this game that is "cancer" but you don't see me crying for a ban. I think Regenerator is cancer. Genies are cancer. Gliscor is cancer. Eviolite Chansey is cancer. Keldeo is cancer. It goes on and on.
>>24810059
smogon banning everything that works against stall while keeping everything that works for stall, what an unexpected result :^)
>>24814216
>cancer
You depend on a catch-all term to argue why something should be banned. I think this is proof enough that it wasn't.
Also, a lot of people were used this term for Sableye and it wasn't banned. Inconsistent much?
>>24814216
>having problems with wobbuffet
>>24814204
>Why not just ban Goth+Trick, or Shadow Tag Goth, or Goth and Sableye on the same team?
All of these are retarded and set shitty precedent. Any of those would pave the way for arguments like "Genesect isn't broken without U-turn," "Deo-D isn't broken without Bisharp," and "Lugia isn't broken without Multiscale."
You either ban the Pokemon as a whole, ban the ability as a whole, or don't do anything.
I agree that they should have banned Goth and not Shadow Tag.
You can run counters to Weavile, you don't lose a Pokemon if it's in against something it beats. At best it can Pursuit trap. Even then, you can't switch Weavile right in to the things you're trying to trap, and you still have to guess between Pursuit and Knock Off.
>>24814255
>he doesn't know that Goth is the reason Sableye stall is so successful
Wait are smogonbabies too dumb to run banded dugtrio?
>>24814314
yes but on the flipside you just need gothitelle to trick on some wall on a stall team, get to +6 and ko it, even if they take care of the goth they'll have lost a team member which is generally detrimental to a well-built stall team (stall teams are known to either win 6-0 or lose). And on smogon if something is a threat to stall teams it will get suspected and likely banned.
>smogon can't handle Mega Fug
>VGC can
>>24814407
vgc is not competitive though
>>24814416
What was the top prize for the Smogon World Championships last year again?
>>24814434
An enthusiastic e-peen stroking
>>24814255
Except Shadow Tag Goth was primarily used ON stall teams
Satan (Gothitelle) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 80 HP / 176 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Trick
- Calm Mind
- Rest
GG
>>24814449
Double switch into Bisharp.
Personally, I voted ban on both. Gothitelle could be used to trickscarf anything, and thus weaken it, without the opponent having any say in the matter. When you take control out of the hands of the player to that degree, it's unhealthy.
As for Sableye, it is broken, but not in a traditional sense. The thing is that it is a broken support pokemon, and people are notoriously bad at spotting broken support pokemon. Just look at DeoS having to be suspect twice to get a ban, and Aegislash only getting the boot by such a small margin. The fact that some tour players, who to be honest, don't really play ORAS that much anymore, decided to pitch in and say that voting ban was "against the integrity of the suspect process" or whatever the fuck was just the nail in the coffin.
You see, what Sableye does isn't sweep a team outright, or wall half the metagame, which is why it's not easy to put your finger on exactly why it is broken. What it does is negate all general options against stall, and to make matters worse, it not only negates these moves, but bounces them back as it switches in. By general options, I mean things that are effective against all stall builds: hazards, taunt, toxic, will o wisp to get chip damage, or negate certain moves. Essentially, you either blow through the Sableye build with extremely powerful attacks, or not at all, there is no happy medium. What it basically boils down to is that Sableye offers such huge support for its team mates at every point in the match, and requires you to pack extremely powerful breakers to fuck up the whole team, or lose to it, rather than have some kind of interaction between the players.
ORAS isn't actually that matchup based without Sableye, and on the suspect ladder you usually had room to outplay a bad matchup. This is rarely the case with Sableye, where you either pack the big bad breaker, or you don't. The tier could have been less matchup based, but alas. At least we still have banded HSF to make stall cry.
>>24814479
>DeoS deserved to be banned
>>24814464
>having to run Pursuit trapper on every team
The only other way to beat SabGoth stall is using some gimmick three wallbreakers hyper offensive team, probably with dual screens to avoid autolosing to every offensive team ever.
>excadrill used stealth rock!
>>24814449
so what you get to +6, bop one mon and then get revenge killed immediatly? Goth works incredible against stall (and to a lesser extent balance), offense couldn't give a shit.
>>24814533
>offense couldn't give a shit
It gives a shit when you ruin one of their wallbreakers.
This thread is filled with underaged posters that hate Smogon because it's Smogon and people playing devil's advocate just for shits and giggles. This ban is correct.
>>24811370
On your cartridge smogon baby, enjoy showdowns dictated by retards.
>>24814708
Tier baby, get gud
>>24814708
>oh no my precious site surely can do no wrong
literally brainwashed cult
>>24814752
>I like to gargle balls in the morning.
See, I can also do it.
Smogon is not always right, but in this, they are and everyone who is arguing the opposite here is either an anti-Smogon fanatic or baiting hard.
Smogon has been going downhill after gen 4. The amount of pokemon that break singles meta will just keep increasing as new generations come and there's no way smogon can keep up with banning all the broken shit. It's time to move on and embrace doubles
>>24815237
>It's time to move on and embrace doubles
I agree. Check these
>/vp/ defending PP Stall cancer because "WAH FUCK SMOGUN"
>completely ignoring that this ban hurts stall because they can no longer stick Goth on a team and just cancer away their team weaknesses
Wobbuffet has Destiny Bond and Encore too, you retards.
>>24813838
Moron, you forgot Heatran. That's, like the only reason to use Dugtrio in OU, to kill Heatran.
>>24814056
>Name one pokemon that's unusable because Rocks Destroy it
Moltres. Articuno to a lesser extent as well. Also Vivillon, but Sleep Clause actually holds it back more than rocks. You ever use it in Anything goes? Better than fucking Darkrai most of the time. Sleep Powder with 90% accuracy and Quiver Dance. Hurricanes are nice and accurate too.
>>24815435
>Vivillon is better than Darkrai
No.
>Articuno
Weak as shit even with Hurricane, bad defensive typing, and low speed.
>Moltres
I struggle to see why I'd use this over ZardY, Tornadus-T, or fat Talonflame. I guess it could be nice on rain teams?
>>24810421
Forget Wobb, anyone who voted to ban Shadow Tag is implicitly saying they feel more threatened by Gothita (no, not Gothitelle, GOTHITA) than the likes of Magnezone and Dugtrio.
Don't get me wrong, Gothitelle is cancer but the suspect wasn't for Gothitelle, but for Shadow Tag as a whole. And I'd be more inclined to consider a blanket Shadow Tag ban once the trappers I consider more dangerous have also been suspected.
Gothita and Wynaut are nowhere near as threatening as Zone and Dugtrio, and I can't believe no one saw this huge flaw in the suspect process. I know they tried pushing the fact that removing the Ability to switch if you aren't a Ghost type or wearing Shed Shell is uncompetitive, but it just doesn't sit well with me.
>>24815421
Didn't knew Heatran was a gen 3 pokemon.
I can imagine Smogon banning shit in gen 7 with the only argument being that it is "cancer".
>>24812990
No, it was a matter of holding the community at ransom to ban an entire Ability even though everyone seemed to think that Gothitelle was the only real problem, not the other STag users.
You can read it right there in the suspect thread. A bunch of people pleaded to correct the issue by making it a Sable + Gothitelle suspect but they wouldn't allow it. I believe it was AM who swept in after the fourth or fifth plea to tell them it wasn't gonna happen.
>Shadow Tag as a whole or nothing, we don't give a fuck what you might think of it
There's been a crusade against that fucking Ability since that while fiasco with the Ubers suspect.
Bah humbug. They broke my Wobb/Kyurem-B core. Not happy.
>>24815616
This. It's very obvious this is some corrupt bullshit. They were looking to remove Shadow Tag from day 1, this was their excuse.
Why don't chaos come back and slap some sense in those entitled dipshits?
>>24811862
>>24811906
>what are tiers
>Rain Dance + 2 attacks walled by zapdos
how the fuck does +3 STAB Scald in the rain not shit on Zapdos and every single one ofits hopes and dreams you stupid fuck?
>>24815485
except half the fucking game is immune to Arena trap and even more are immune to magnet pull
dugtrio is only ever used as a revenge killer, and is less threatening as a revenge killer than Weavile and Scizor. Since your argument is that "Gothorita should be allowed since it's not as bad as Dugtrio", would you also argue that Scizor and weavile should be bad since they're better than Dugtrio?
Magnezone is ridiculously easy to see coming and even then it's Analytic set is the more dangerous.
meanwhile, the only things in OU immune to shadow tag are another gothitelle, sableye and gengar
>>24815485
Wrong. Magnezone and Dugtrio are used to kill off Pokemon who actually can hold Shed Shell and still do their job. Skarmory for instance can Roost and shit, no Leftovers isn't the end of the world. Compare this to Goth's targets, who need their items to break through the rest of the stall team. (read: Mega Sableye, which is why it was suspected)
Mag and Dug make their targets maybe 85% as useful, Goth makes them 0% as useful.
>>24816376
Samefag here. I'm wrong about Dugtrio, Ttar and Heatran definitely don't want to run around with Shed Shells.
>>24810059
>Gothetile will never be useful again
F
>>24816340
>>24816376
I think you're confusing the issue a bit. Just answer this question: in the following list of mons, if they all have to be banned, what order would you ban them in starting with the most threatening and working your way down?
>Dugtrio
>Gothita
>Magnezone
>Wynaut
It's not a question of what it is they do and do not trap, it's a question of are those baby pokemon with Shadow Tag more ban worthy than other trappers in the tier? Indeed, are they even more banworthy than the entirety of OU? Personally I find every OU pokemon more threatening than Wynaut and Gothita. I only really brought up Zone and Duggz because they have a similar trapping niche (and yes, I know it's an inferior trapping niche).
If you would choose to ban the two baby STaggers before Zone and Dugtrio, I don't know what to tell you. And if you wouldn't choose to ban them before the other two, then you shouldn't be voting for a blanket STag ban. Imo desu SENPAI.
