http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-oras-ou-suspect-process-round-5-run-the-jewels-check-post-168.3556762/
So, Suspect Test for Shadow Tag and, more specifically, M-Sableye. Thoughts? I went back 8 pages and saw no discussion about this; forgive me if it was already talked about, but I'm out of the loop.
What do you guys think? Do you want M-Sable and Shadow Tag in OU? Do you want them banned to Ubers? I personally don't know, beyond the fact that M-Sableye never seemed that bad to battle against. But then, I was never a big hazards user.
Shadowtag I can agree with, I don't inherently see it as healthy in the regard that controlling your opponent's actions to that degree is too powerful.
However, M-Sableeye in my opinion isn't. He's strong but he just isn't THAT strong.
At least some progress is being made on this.
Smogonites are too eager to keep their auto pilot Stealth Rock gameplay.
>>24727815
I feel like we just need more Fairy-types to come up to OU to kick Sableye's ass. And saying that, why isn't Sylveon viable as a counter? Surely the screaming, girly cade can take on PokeHeartless?
Now I'm not saying it solves anything; I'm no balance expert like the Smogon™ Technician™s, and I'm sure there's a reason that Sylveon doesn't work beyond "You shouldn't need to bring a Pokemon to counter a Pokemon" which is a sound reasoning in and of itself.
>>24727815
Gothitelle is an absolute shitmon though, you can KO it with any faster strong physical attacker, and its only reliable move is psyshock, which if its scarfed into its fucked if any dark type comes..
>>24727870
the problem is that sableye can switch out for free. It has no fear because between its bulk and Magic Bounce, you're not getting rocks or spikes up against it. So all the 2HKOs with SR and whathaveyou become 3HKOs, which it can just recover off with impunity.
>>24727945
>i literally have never fought a gothitelle
>>24727945
Yes, Gothitelle totally is a shitmon, that must be why it's one of the most centralizing Pokemon in the meta right now
>>24727815
Half of the game is about limiting the opponent's options, and guess what? SRs purpose is exactly that.
>>24727870
Why even. People just need to learn to fucking Lava Plume/Earthquake/Stone Edge/whatever instead of just thinking about muh rocks. Sableye still has low base HP and with enough beatings it won't be able to just come in every time. Then you can set le precious rocks.
>>24727988
>centralizing
Not nearly as much as Scizor, Heatran and Garchomp. Why smogontards likes to blow things out of proportion? Just say you don't like "thing" and want "thing" removed instead of trying to sound logical when you clearly aren't.
>>24727961
>So all the 2HKOs with SR
>m-muh rocks
>>24728023
>Not nearly as much as Scizor, Heatran and Garchomp
There are multiple reliable ways to stop these Pokemon. They're GOOD but they're not centralizing. The problem with Gothitelle is that any good opponent can guarantee remove or disable one of your Pokemon. There's a reason why Shadow Tag is getting suspected but they aren't.
>instead of trying to sound logical when you clearly aren't.
follow your own advice ;)
>>24728023
those things aren't centralizing because you can shit on them in any number of ways, most by exploiting their 4x weakness.
Scizor becomes completely useless after a burn and it's strongest spammable attack isn't Outrage, EQ or Stone Edge. It's fucking Bug Bite.
Heatran has no recovery to speak of and is an active hindrance with manaphy on every third team ready to ruin your day and is slow and vulnerable to spikes and SR.
Garchomp is generally bulky nowadays and suffers from a lot of the same issues as Scizor and Heatran, and basically every bulky Steel-type can come in on it without too much hassle.
>>24728030
Yes, muh rocks, you fucking moron. They are a key part of the game. Do you shitpost "muh EQ" or "muh Thunderbolt" or "muh Status effects" too? No? Leave.
>>24728067
>Yes, muh rocks, you fucking moron. They are a key part of the game.
It's like saying that a particular item in a moba is a key part of the game just because it's incredibly good.
If something counters that item, suddenly, that counter is bad. Something counters rocks too hard and the response is "OH NO, IT'S TOO STRONK!" If rocks are so strong and a key part of the game, why the fuck is it possible to remove them at all? Why aren't Defog and Rapid Spin banned?
Don't get me wrong. I understand that rocks break Sash/Sturdy, do 25% to Flying-types, 50% to 4x weakness, and 12% to any "normal" cases. I understand what it does. But to argue that it's a "key part of the game" and that M-Sableye somehow counters it in a way that Espeon, Xatu, or hazard-removers don't seems like bullshit.
Surely if you're relying on a fucking hazard set-up to guarantee you your win, you should re-evaluate, since all it takes is one Pokemon to completely ruin your entire set-up?
>>24728102
The issue with Sabeleye isn't that it counters rocks. Clefable is immune to rocks and no one insists that it's too strong.
The issue is that it's typing gives it exactly one weakness to exploit and it is incredibly difficult to wear down since it's immune to Leech Seed, Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave and Toxic and its bulk lets it recover most things you throw at it. Attempts to break it physically leave you feeling burned so your only option is a special Fairy-type, and unless it's something like Mega Gardevoir it probably won't have the killing power to get clean 1/2HKO.
Of course, the M-Sableye player knows this and is prepared for Fairies. If they play well then you will not wear down their team. Think back to any battle where the last tick of damage came down to any amount of passive damage. If you've played a lot of matches then you'd have a long list.
The issue isn't that "It counters muh rocks", it's "Mega Sabeleye is almost impregnable and Gothitelle can dismantle any one target and set up on it for free, and the combination of the two of them is pure cancer."
>>24728102
Evasion and ways to counter Double Tema/minimize spam are also a key part of the game, though, and smogon outright ignores it because they hate playing against it.
Really unless it's something dumb like passing chains of it or making it impossible to phase, evasion is actually a sorta crappy strategy. Smogon just bans what they don't like and tries to act like their opinions are facts with a bunch of technobabble statistics and talk of "competitiveness".
Stealth Rock requires hazard control on most teams. It's horrifyingly centralizing. Evasion Boosting would probably be LESS centralizing (top ladder Anything Goes teams don't even bother preparing for it most of the time), yet it is banned. Smogon should just be honest.
Leave Sablenite alone, it's not too powerful without retarded shit like Gothitelle.
Keep Shadow Tag too. It's "uncompetitive," but the only users that are potent enough to cause serious problems are Gothitelle and Gothorita. Wobb is decent but not nearly to the same degree.
Basically, ban Gothitelle (and Gothorita, which apparently can be used the same way) and don't touch anything else.
>Gen 5
>/vp/ complains about Smogonwashingmachine
>Gen 6
>Something comes along that has better defense than Smogmachine, Recover and additional utility
>/vp/ complains that smogon wants to ban it
>>24728173
Welcome to the world of pokemon! You seem to have encountered what we call "defensive core". Said things have existed ever since the second gen (Gold and Silver games) with Blissey, Suicune and a steel type. As you said, they're hard to break through and have good synergy.
So, let me offer you a piece of advice, trainer: deal with it. Like we did over ten years ago, and continued doing until your faggot entitled ass came along calling to ban everything you don't like.
Hope that helped :)
>MUH COVERT CONCRETE: The Thread
>>24728338
This.
>>24728274
>Evasion and ways to counter Double Tema/minimize spam are also a key part of the game, though, and smogon outright ignores it because they hate playing against it.
Evasion is 100% pure luck-play, that's why it's banned. Banning it removes absolutely nothing of value from the game.
>Stealth Rock requires hazard control on most teams
Any hazard requires hazard control on most teams. Unless you're running HO. And there are plenty of good ways to deal with it that doesn't force you to use shitmons.
Besides, hazards keeps the game progressing in a meta where you want to switch as often as possible. It adds a cost to an otherwise free action. All banning SR does create a meta full of flying types and focus sashes.
>>24728007
>physical moves
>on a Pokemon with Wil-o-Wisp
>bulky with recovery and one weakness
>magic bounce
No, he instantly shuts down 99% of support mons. Note that, despite what all the anti-Smogon contrarians think, magic bounce works on more than just Stealth Rock.
Off to ubers you go
>>24728274
>Evasion
RETARD ALERT
Evasion
- makes the Pokemon unaffected by status moves and damage alike
- forces you to run shit BP moves to deal with it otherwise you fucking lose
- ends up with a RPS matchup based "lose at team preview" meta; evasion > normal teams > anti evasion > evasion
- has a few deducted counters compared to how just about every Pokemon learns double team
- the only reliable counter with decent distribution is Roar/Whirlwind which at the very least forces you to take a hit
Hazards
- reasonable distribution of counters in Rapid Spin and Defog
- don't make or break the game; you can function even with 3 layers of spikes and rocks up, try winning against a +6 evasion anything without a counter
- if you have a specific Pokemon that is really crippled by stealth rock in particular, you can run one of the many Pokemon which can remove hazards
- hazards help prevent the game being a stall switchfest; without hazards you can just pivot back and forth endlessly between shit like Rotom and Chansey, using a modicum of prediction
>>24728274
Addendum: NOBODY GOVES A SHIT ABOUT YOUR STUPID FUCKING CHARIZARD BUT GAMEFREAK, KEEP ON MASHING DRAGON CLAW YOU DUMB FAGGOT
>>24727789
Why are you people getting so worked up over a fan meta? who cares. play pic related or you're just a casual
>Mega Sableye
>>24732746
>play pic related
god fucking no
at least Smogon has variety, YEAH, I SAID THAT, THE PEOPLE THAT BAN EVERYTHING HAS MORE VARIETY THAT VGC SHITFEST, VGC is literally
muh intimidate genie
muh twave swagger genie
muh mega mom
muh fire toad
muh moon psychic thing that never dies
muh yelling cade
muh spore spam mushroom
there, i just listed the whole vgc metagame
>options versus Mega Sableye team
>Use Mega Gardevoir or +2 CM Clefable, or Sylveon
>Lose
>Options versus Stealth Rock
>Use literally any pokemon with wings because they fucking all learn Defog
>Use one of the 5 or so viable Rapid Spinners
>Think more carefully about your switches
>Deal with it
how is this not abundantly clear
>>24734150
You have plenty of options against Sableye teams that don't have Gothitelle, it's obvious that we should remove the bullshit trapper that teams of every archetype use to lazily remove threats.
Early ORAS had tons of Sableye stall, then people adapted. You don't adapt to Gothitelle without using something like Shed Shell that's useless any time you don't run into it.
>>24728417
There's more than one person using this board.
>>24735651
it's lierally just you and me, I just shitpost a lot to make it seem like there's a lot of people here.
>vs Mega Sableye
>Gliscor used Protect!
>Mega Sableye used Will-O-Wisp!
>Gliscor protected itself!
>Gliscor was badly poisoned by the Toxic Orb!
>desperate Sableye user tries to set up CM
>Swords Dance all the way to heaven
>2HKO with Earthquake or Knock Off any mon that tries to switch in
>vs Gothitelle
>Protect against Trick
>Knock Off
Damn I love Gliscor so much.
>>24738246
>Protect + Swords Dance
hi 1k shitter
>>24738246
>CM Sableye
>Protect against Trick when Choice Scarf would actually be more useful and you could just spam Knock Off on the opposing team until death
>things that never happened
>>24727789
I'd imagine mega fairies would do the trick quite nicely. I mean the two or 3 that exist would likely overpower the common core.
The council's position that Shadow Tag is "inherently uncompetitive" is wrong. Gothitelle has the tools (like Trick) and stats to abuse Shadow Tag, in the same way Greninja has the tools and stats to abuse Protean.
Meanwhile, Wobbuffet is limited to Encoring opponents. It doesn't pair with Mega Sableye stall and it's closer to Whimsicott or Ditto than it is to Gothitelle.
>no one thinks wobb is broken and thinks gothitelle is the problem
The only reason Wobb doesn't wreck face right now is because of meta shifts. Wobb shits on offensive pokemon while goth shits on defensive pokemon. When the meta shifts to become more about offense wobb will shine, and shine hard.
The nature of shadow tag is probably the real issue
>>24734150
Nobody on offense uses Defog.
If you guys hate Smogon's rules so much, why not make your own 6vs6 singles server, where nothing is banned except legendaries already in Uber and the Endless Battle Clause?
Or play Battle Spot Singles.
>>24732746
No thanks
>>24738472
Offense was popular for a while and Wobb still didn't get much serious attention.
I've used it before and it's good, but far from broken. Offense is used to sacrificing Pokemon anyways, doesn't help your match-up when you struggle to actually switch in.
>>24738505
people like complaining about pokemon and shitposting than actually playing it, hence why Showderp and Waifu/Furry/PokePorn threads thrive while Competitive Pokemon General struggles for life for a few weeks and died and why VGC General is people complaining about Genies, Mega MILF and Protect: The Meta
>>24733438
>muh moon psychic thing that never dies
Every goddamn Gook has that thing on their team EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM!!!!!!!
>>24739539
People are using other bulky/offensive mons right now though, like Milotic, Aegislash, Sylveon and so on.
>>24739592
Well, good i guess because honest to god I stopped battlespot because of that shit.
>read pro-ban arguments
>MUH HAZARDS
Real compelling stuff.
