Deepest Lore edition
Previous Thread: >>128523015
Dominions is a fantasy turn-based strategy game created by two dudes. One of them is a teacher.
The game combines a simple presentation with an extremely wide array of strategic options, including over 2800 units, 800 spells and 300 magic items. Turns are resolved simultaneously, with players planning battles rather than directly controlling them.
It has simplistic graphics but is easily moddable and extremely deep.
Basically, it's an autist’s wet dream of a strategy game.
>Steamgroup
Join the steamgroup for multiplayer
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/vanheimageofvidya
>Group chatroom
steam://friends/joinchat/103582791434709795
>Our work-in-progress wiki
http://dom4.wikia.com/wiki/Dominions_4_Wiki
>Dom4 Manual
http://jaffa.illwinter.com/dom4/manual_dom4.pdf
>Dom4 Inspector
This is a community resource that has every unit, spell, and item in the game in an accessible database.
http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/
>Play by email guide:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=202096551
>Pastebin
http://pastebin.com/JMmSrpdE
>Debug Mod:
For testing battle formations and spells
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/debug-mod
>Where do I get it?
It is available on Gamersgate and Steam. Desura is ded.
>THE BASICS
>Read the manual
>Read the pastebin
>Read
Submit completed games here:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1jHX_ZoJi6zIvDq6ANdp-W1Y89W5_fmShuDyHmAj5qC4/viewform
Results Here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dlrvyEqLFYIaXRc49TheMmfdoP8jEh1m5rZJHJAzDWQ/edit?usp=sharing
First for aboleth traps
/r/ing the old ctis/caelum diplomacy screenshot
>>128848659
>>128848843
This one?
>>128848938
Yes, thank you.
Does anybody know if the teleportation tag affects movement in combat, or just on the map?
>>128849778
It does, yes. It's like flying, except it also allows units to disengage in melee.
>>128849850
Shit. I'm trying to figure out a way to give a unit teleportation/flying on the map, but not be able to do so in battle.
>>128849904
Give it a cursed item that can cast Teleport?
>>128849989
wait, nvm, this only works in provinces with labs.
>>128849904
What's the lore behind its movement?
>>128850072
Can travel through hades.
Basically, I'm trying to make a unit that can effectively use a cut-rate stygian path with a much lower range (no gem cost), and during movement phase (preferably).
>>128850207
>>128850072
I'd be happy with flying that only worked on the strategic map. The alternative is doing it with a ritual only that monster can cast, and I really don't want to do that.
>>128849778
The only time the difference between teleportation and flying matters is when Perpetual Storm is up.
>>128855875
That's not true. Teleportation doesn't need to make morale checks to pass units on the battlefield.
>>128856065
Those are not morale checks
>>128856065
Neither does flying. I don't understand how this misconception has stayed alive for this long. Attack rear starts from the back and gives a % chance of attacking that squad, then moves forward until the check passes. That there is no morale check is trivially easy to test, since you get 100% certainty of attacking archers or cavalry or whatever, and longdead and other 50 morale units will not always attack the rearmost squad with mass flight.
>>128856065
In terms of province movement. Not in battles.
I know battle teleportation was broken on some horrors (they didn't flit about properly), but no idea if all teleportation is broken/if that flitting about thing is unique to horrors or the other extremely rare teleporting units are supposed to do that too.
>tfw seriously considering creating x-men mutants nation
>create like 30 mutant troop types, from mostly useless ones like spines to useful ones like beam blasters, flyers, etc
>have them freespawn at extremely low rate
>national commanders are more useful mutants, no magic paths, for huge gold cost, troops are 'human followers'
> two pretenders, Magneto and Professor X, huge newpathcost, their innate paths let them cast one of two branches of national spells
>Magneto gets to create Bio Men, hordes of weaker mutants, various monstrosities, and has a popkill ritual to summon a meteor from space, and is a personal powerhouse
>Professor X can create more elite mutants from his 'training academy', cast a national Eyes of God, Gateway with his troops to places, and cast a remote-spell Enslave, in battle is weak but has an aoe paralyze attack
>candles cause unrest, and magneto's summoned units all have Chaos Power, so if you're going the path of the Brotherhood of Mutants you're going to have unrest issues, and even with Order scales you're going to have some unrest issues
>the x-men are all hero units with better stats and powers than average, and they show up to fight for either pretender
>>128859676
Nations without mages tend to be pretty imbalanced. If you're going to actually make it, you should find some way to fit mages in.
Order vs Chaos sounds pretty interesting, but the summons would need to be really good for people to actually consider chaos when there's a constant unrest effect.
Anyone interested in new pbem game?
>>128854382
>and undead troops are pretty easy to counter in general
Noob here. Please explain.
>>128861203
Undead troops aren't easier to counter than any other kind of troop, but people have a lot of practice at it thanks to >Ermor
Dust to Dust/Wither Bones oneshots elite undeads, solar brilliance/other battlefield wipe kills huge undead hordes, and mind blast shoots commanders in the rear leaving the mindless undead leaderless, which means they stop moving and slowly die.
>>128861203
There's a bunch of specific spells which don't allow resistances/armor/MR/anything to protect you which only target undead. These are extremely effective against elite undead troops. From memory: Dust to Dust, Wither Bones, Solar Rays, Cleansing Water (also affects demons)
Priests of any level have the spell Banishment, which has a large AoE and has an MR-based chance to do irresistible damage. It also only affects undead (also demons), and is extremely good at clearing large hordes of weak undead chaff because it uses next to no fatigue and can therefore be spammed every turn until the fight ends. Stronger undead/demons tend to have good MR and resist the damage, but it's still decent against them too.
Finally, there's battlefield clear like Rain of Stones/Earthquake/Fire Storm. The main type of undead chaff, longdead, has low hp and only moderate protection and is therefore much more vulnerable to these tactics than most troops.
>>128861338
>>128861612
Great advice thanks. So spells like wither bones are great against lone casters looking to summon a lot of skeletons on the field but battlefield clears like earthquake are great against large hordes of longdeads.
>>128862287
No, wither bones is a very hard to cast aoe undead soul slay. You use it on Lictors, and Wights, and Ghosts.
Against skelespam, you just kill enough skeletons to get things over with, RoS the casters, or mind blast the casters.
>>128862287
>So spells like wither bones are great against lone casters looking to summon a lot of skeletons on the field
They'll work, but priests using banishment is way better for that situation.
Wither Bones and similar spells are more expensive to deploy than banishment and are usually overkill against just skeletons (D2D does 22 damage while longdead have only 5 hp). Ideally you want to use them against targets which have decent HP and are hard to kill with other methods (i.e. elite troops).
dead cucks.
>>128848824
as in, coaxing an astral mage to teleport into a province full of aboleths hellbent on casting magic duel, or transvestite aboleths?
This has perplexed me for months
>>128869163
The latter.
>>128869163
>This has perplexed me for months
The thought of you genuinely pondering this for months has me in stitches
>>128862879
>Tfw people actually thug undead troops
Why would you do it.
>>128871304
because thugs die to mages anyways and undead chasses are cheap and still good enough to beat PD.
>>128871428
Oh, sorry I meant heavy thugs and SCs.
>>128871304
>why would you thug an enc 0 tough chassis
thug: a unit designed to take out PD/unsupported raid squads
mage: a unit that nearly always has a spell to kill thugs with
you: bad at dominions
The actual reason you don't thug bane lords/banes much anymore is because prot is weaker in dom4, so they need more gear to take out PD, and you might as well just use a scout with water bottles.
>>128871551
Tartarians? Those and wraith lords are the only ones I've seen, and while everyone knows that Herald Lances will annihilate them, a good tart can transition between SCing and spellcasting with an army when the counter-thugs start coming for them. Wraith lords are at least immortal and stuff.
>>128871663
I've recently had success with black servants equipped with only a vine shield. The life drain attack seems to be enough to beat PD since it adds enough HP to survive a lucky hit and the shield prevents those hits from happening in rapid succession.
>>128871551
Because
>some nations don't have access to those spells
>people generally don't script them unless they see the SC coming
>range/accuracy is generally low enough you can sit the SC in the back row until off-script skellyspam starts
>enc 0 and undead native resists are pretty useful
>tarts are just such a great chassis it's worth dealing with that weakness
>>128871551
Because an SC has mobility. And uses that to confront enemies not scripted with anti-undead-SC spells.
If the enemy is scripted against your SC, it doesn't matter what flavour of SC it is. It's gonna die.
And if your enemy is terrified of your tarts and scripts big piles of mages with anti-tart spells, and you bring a tart or behemoth just to get shot at while your mages do all the work on the distracted enemy mages, that's good times.
>>128871834
Using a wraith lord to thug seems like a waste of a wraith lord. You want them as defensive fuck-you casters, putting up rigor from behind PD or something. I mean, not that I buy them much, I generally use my D for other stuff.
That black servant really sounds like it would die a lot. Vine shield applies after initial hits, so i'd think it would just get first-rounded a bunch. Black servant with armour and just a vine shield sounds to me like it would work, but just the shield? I'll have to test that.
>>128872161
It depends on the nation that it's raiding, but the initial hit thing includes attacks that the ethereal prevents from dealing damage so that's less of a problem than you'd think. I've mostly been just fighting 1-2 PD with them, but I beat 6PD once (weak indies). They'll definitely die to an unlucky hit, but so far I've been doing just fine. It might be worth shelling out another 5 gems to go with the 15 that you've already invested.
>>128872464
>5 gems to go with the 15 that you've already invested.
At that point you're barely cheaper than a Bane Lord, though stealth has undeniable benefits.
>>128873018
bane lords take a brand and a vine shield, I thought, so they're at 27 without stealth.
>>128872464
A scout with a skelly charm will defeat 1-2 PD. Generally a stealthy thug you want to take out 8-10.
>>128875275
Yeah, I think Armor of Knights would actually be enough to do that, albeit with a risk of dying to a lucky first hit before it has the chance to lifesteal above its max HP. I'll try it out and let you know how it goes in a few days if I remember.
>>128875459
If you're armouring, it needs head armour.
ded
>>128854382
>Shardwights aren't good and are undead are easy to counter in general
Shardwights don't have a great statline, but for they're really cheap for elite undead. A 27 damage magic slashing attack at atk 12 (prior to exp) is respectable, their coldaura helps shut down enemies, and they've got huge globs of hp along with decent prot, so they're not that easy to cut or blast through.
Also, they're surprisingly effective underwater.
>Undead are easy to counter
Not really. There are lots of direct counters to undead (banishment, solar rays, cleansing water, wither bones), but Shard Wights are tanky enough to shrug these off unless really massed- and Agartha is fully capable of spawning massive massive amounts of other undead chaff.
>>128880762
>meme shield and meme brand
DUDE I GET IT HAHAHAHAHAHA NICE ONE MAN I JUST PEED MYSELF LAUGHING
>>128881065
You should get that looked at. You might have a urethral infection of some kind.
>>128881065
It's Lugh, you fucking retard.
>>128880762
Do you have an image of frost brand and vineshield ready to put in images?
>>128882128
There's a sprite dump on desura.
Also, I didn't make those.
>>128879171
Fuck you
>>128869163
>>128869221
Can aboleths become transvestites?
>>128888123
>can boy aboleths wear dresses
Probably, but it's like putting a dog in a dress.
why is it so dead today
are we all playing ddda
>>128891870
Everyone is in church. Because this is a christian board.
>>128891870
I HAVE 26 GAMES NO TIME TO SHITPOST
team 4, please submit your nation picks.
This game was planned to start in january, lets keep it that way.
You have the wonderful postion of getting to pick 2 nations at once, you should use it.
>>128891870
I know I am, this game is pretty fun
>>128894431
Xibalba, Machaka, done.
>>128894431
Ermor,
Abysia
>>128893746
The absolute madman.
>>128894995
>>128895083
picks must be made in steam thread. nice try.
>>128893746
please stop joining games. you're probably not any better than the AI at this point.
>>128895335
Lemuria and R'lyeh
>>128891870
>are we all playing ddda
Yes.
>>128895376
You cheeky cunt.
>>128896170
What games are you in, anyways?
>>128896672
Dude if he is in 26 hes in EVERY game.
>>128896736
There are approximately 200 games on llamaserver. If earlier ratios hold, that means about 35 of them are /domg/ or /v/anheim games.
>>128896672
>>128896736
I just have a save called "latest turn" and delete emails after I do the turn.Or I don't have time to type out the 26 games in full on my phone.
Blitz in chat in 2 hours.
>>128896930
> I don't have time to type out the 26 games in full
Do it
Kuso thread, /domg/
>>128899316
You aren't worth 25 gems
>>128900403
>telling people how many gems they are worth
>>128900403
>n3 with bitching randoms
>not worth 25 gems
Git gud skrub
>>128901835
>>128900403
It's 30 gems
>>128894431
i'm doing it right now, I know it but my grandma died this weekend and had to go back to home so I couldn't either send turns or think dominions stuff. Sorry.
ded
>>128904241
That sucks anon, I hope you're coping with it and if any extensions are needed just say.
>>128904241SBS Jotun?
>>128903716
I just assumed he was right without actually checking. Point still stands 30 gems for an N3 with good randoms is still very worthwhile, especially on a nation with little to no A/S anyways.
What does domg think about ports in order to let more water into the map, while not screwing over land nations as much by still letting them have some mobility
>>128908360
They're good, but like everything they need moderation.
Is Conquest of Elysium 4 any good and how often does it go on sale if it is good?
>>128908989
It's got about an hour's worth of novelty value, but nothing much beyond that.
>>128908989
It has the promising of something good, but needs an overhaul mod to bring up the pacing enough to be good. If you doubled the AP of every unit in the game, (while doubling ritual cost) and doubled income, you'd be on the right track.
>>128908624
They make ritual ranges really wonky sometimes.
>>128897909
Now as I'm not on a phone, here's the /DOMG/ games I'm in:
All_Yesterdays
Castle_Doc
CliffsofDivinity
Domgeagame
Domgmagame
Firstbreath
FlatusIIElectricBoogaloo
Gopher_holes
MapmakingIsHard
MoMoM
NewYearNails
NoStallers
SkeletonsBeScary
Stalewarriors
>>128913269
but why
>>128913331
I didn't realise I joined so many until I checked how many I was in.Also Dominions is fun.
>>128913601
I barely have enough time to do turns for the two games I'm in. I'm not complaining, Dominions is one of the only games I can manage around a busy schedule.
>>128907385
nope
>>128913269
who are you in stalewarriors, cutie?
also who are you in NewYearNails?
>>128913269
How's the neetlife? Crippling depression set in yet, or have you managed to distract yourself away from it?
>>128915449
I'm a student, and going slowly insane due to the amount of turns + uni work, thank fuck for christmass.
>>128913269
In Domgmagame are you Shinuyama? If you are do your turn mate.
>>128918468
Nope,Monkies, hence the God name, I really shouldn't have joined.
>>128918928
Dont worry I believe you will be able to do it :)))))))))
>>128919219
Cheers anon, also Ermor removed soon.
>>128919647
More or less true actually, Jotunheim is in Ermors cap ring.
>>128920061
How's your crossbreeding going?
>>128920061
He also killed Agartha's anti-ermor force by NOT COMMUNICATING
>>128920226
Slowly I did a split between Thaumaturgy and Blood magic. For now I am just focusing on blood magic and thinking about getting more mages.
>>128920423
Communicating is for nerds that aren't getting that sweet 15 D gems / turn.
>>128920575
You should definitely get more mages. Always max mages.
i'm new
How to be necromancer like
>>128920061
?
>>128921628
die then wait 3-6 months to become skeleton
>>128921628
In the mid age, play Ermor.
>>128913269
Huh who are you in Gopher?
>>128921628
For necromancy with living mages - Sceleria, C'tis, Jotunheim, Utgard, Machaka, Yomi, probably more that I'm forgetting about
For cooler vine skeletons and crazy forest things - Asphodel.
For pure skeletons and a global war against you from the word go - Ermor
>>128922928Fomoria
>>128923649
Huh doing surprisingly well.
>>128923876
Why's that surprising?
>>128913269
Holy shit man. Who are you in SBS, if I may ask?
>>128925210
The nation which is doing really stupid stuff to see what actually works when indies are directly better than any national troops.
>>128925389
You the firemans?
>>128913269
>Firstbreath
Which nation?
>>128925640
Machaka, Abysian troops aren't THAT bad.
>>128925871
Therodos.
>>128926250
>Therodos.
I now know exactly who you are. The only man that plays Therodos.
So what does /domg/ think about the new balance mod that's on Desura? The one by sum1won?
Any games using that?
>>128926620
>The one by sum1won?
Everything he does will a priori be shit.I didn't see it. Mind posting the link?
>>128926620
I will be when I run my next games. It'll be a bit before then, though. Most of the changes are uncontroversial improvements, and while it does value the win rates very highly the changes look great overall. I think it has the potential to be the new CBM if he continues to iterate on it.
>>128926858
>Everything he does will a priori be shit.
Huh, why?
>link
Everything he does will a priori be shit.
>>128926250
Ah. Just making your last stand then?
Haven't seen much discussion of FirstBreath in the thread, so maybe I should post some battle reports. Had a couple interesting large battles with Lanka in the last few turns.
>>128927031
Whoops.
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/overhaul-mod
>>128926620
Everything it does is good. It's very incomplete but it's better than vanilla already.
>>128927113
Please do. I'm also interested in your spell use, since my very first MP game was as Xibalba, I had no clue what I was doing, and I haven't played as them since.
>>128927196
Hm. I don't see anything that could be biased thus far. The thing is, we don't have too much data for LA nations. Gotta make more LA games.
>>128926250
You the Therados in AY too?
>>128926620
I like/am-fine-with basically everything I see in it. Really wanna see how he messes with nations.
>>128927342
Step 1. Hunt slaves
Step 2. Summon Ozelotls
Step 3. Use Ozelotls to kill things
Step 4. Repeat
>>128927570
True. I also frequently read well reputed players saying that LA Ulm is strong, with one saying that it's "Ulm's game to lose" and another listing that as the reason for his not playing them. I think that good players should actually play Ulm more to see if the reputation that it somehow earned with barely any wins actually has any substance to it or if it's just fluff and smoke.
Reminder that all crusades against Ermor fail.
>>128927827
LA Ulm won quite a lot on Goon.
>>128927764
Yeah, Ozelotl's are absolutely fantastic, but everything needs mage support and I wanted to see what was used in that regard.
>>128927976
Blood, nature, and death.
Imps, bugs, and skeletons.
>>128927973
Someone needs to get goon stats incorporated in this then.
I've also read that they have a very rush oriented meta, but I'd think that that'd make Ulm even more vulnerable.
>>128928132
>rush oriented
Ulm can get blizzard and cascades by turn 12, so yeah.
>>128927715
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-0lPGb5Kwf9uPX0MQAm5WG2dU6tg7RpmNL7osenOce4/ here you go friend
The problem with winrates is that it doesn't take player skill, diplomacy, or map into account.
>>128927342
This is my first game as Xibalba, so I'm probably doing at least some things horribly wrong.
I'm going out for now, but I'll post about the fights when I get back in a couple of hours. For now, I'll just leave you with the battle reports.
Here's the first fight, which was a pretty big loss for me even though I managed to hold my ground. I underestimated how much firepower Lanka would bring, so I didn't put up a number of spells which I should have.
>>128928275
>Rlyeh 0/19
>Would be improved by being removed entirely.
>>128928442
No, but it doesn't have to. It just needs a large enough sample size to account for that. The real problem is that the sample sizes are WAY too small, and that's unlikely to change given that this is a game with a tiny playerbase whose games take months to finish.
It's also still (slightly) better than operating based on feels.
>>128928559
And here's the second fight, which happened just this turn and went much better for me.
>>128928559
Yeah, that is like the definition of a pyrrhic victory
>>128928787
>1 dead mage and 4 friendlies
>21 dead mages including their pretender and 2 friendlies
Yeah, that's pretty good. What was the deciding difference? Firestorm?
>>128929048
>Firestorm
Mainly that, but also Thunder Fend to reduce damage from Thunderstrike.
>>128927113
Yeap, messed up early on, got to bleed Marverni a bit though so...
>>128926519
Yeap.
>>128927595
Yeap.
>>128929253
Ah yeah. I learned about how much of a difference that makes. It's still an AoE1 killer, but it's no longer an AoE6 evo.
>>128928693
It won't mean anything at all since it's so badly skewed. You say "feels" are bad, but you can just boot up the mod inspector for stats to understand where those "feels" come from. The stats are true and unbiased data, not the badly drawn winrates.
>>128929260
Make sure to post your thero losses so that the stats start getting unfucked.
>>128930140
I haven't lost as them yet.
Though unless R'lyeh shits the bed it'll happen in firstbreath.
>>128930123
Not him, but while stats are objective, the conclusions you (or anybody) can draw from them are not.
Therodos and Ermor winning often just proves that bless nations that can tank scales are strong.
>>128930768
It's retarded since it lists both EA R'lyeh, Hinnom, and Kailasa all in the same category as garbage.
>>128931060
No, it lists them as underperforming. There's various degrees of underperforming.
>>128931060
Just because they can all use buffs doesn't mean they're on the same tier.
>>128931224
None of them except R'lyeh needs buffs.
>>128931505
Do you think that the proposed buffs will make them overpowered, or simply raise them from lower third tier to upper third tier?
>>128931963
They're not awful, they just don't need buffs.
>>128932057
So is it just a purism thing, or do you think that of the two versions of the game, the one without the proposed buffs is better?
>>128932172
It's a knee-jerk reaction stemming from poorly organized data
>>128932365
Ok. Well, if you get the chance to read through the buffs and think that they are unreasonable (as in, they would make the nation too strong) then you should comment on the design document to explain why.
>>128932365
Not the other anon, but why not stop a moment and think through the knee-jerk and about the actual changes proposed?
>>128932579
>>128932620
This is way too reasonable for my /domg/ browsing experience. One of you needs to call someone else a retard or something.
>>128932746
shut up baka
>>128932620
Because the changes stem from a lack of understanding and wants to push the nation in a certain direction rather than help it in a meaningful way.
Hinnom doesn't need more blood and slower chariots, Kailasa doesn't need cheaper summons and cheaper troops, and Helheim certainly doesn't need more buffs due to being an elf nation.
>>128933838
To elaborate, people thought MA Aby and MA Ermor were mid to low tier nations until people figured out how to play them well.
>>128934039
And lastly, all the "strong" nations are all just heavy bless nations.
>>128934213
>>128934213
All in all, it just proves /domg/ is bad at fighting easy to play multibless nations. See pre-nerf Nascar for example.
>>128934039
>MA Aby
>play them well
How? Demon spam?
Being able to take a heavy bless is actually a pretty big advantage. It means that you're likely to be able to expand very well, since high tier blessed sacreds need hilariously few units to expand and you can keep spewing out expansion parties to a degree that can match an awake god. It means that you're likely to win an early war and be resistant to an enemy rush by having units that the opponent will need magic to fight. This means that you're likely to be big and strong for a midgame advantage, and when your god wakes up you've got level 9 paths to cast globals and end game magic with.
>>128934684
Pre nerf Nazca was fucking stupid mate.
>>128934779
Horror and Fiends spam.
>>128934996
Fiends of Darkness? What? With no Darkness?
>>128934996
>>128935345
Also, used how? Raiding all over the place? What about actual army vs army fights?
>>128935345
Even with no darkness, they can chew up most armies just fine if they've been horror bombed beforehand. Heliophages can cast darkness as well.
>>128935610
Are horrors that effective, then? Never used or had them used against me.
>>128935610
Also, huge fiend stacks smash down forts incredibly fast.
>>128935981
Horrors are cheap and attack in the magic phase so you can immediately scout cap the provinces in the same turn. Astral Corruption is also crazy.
Pre nerf AC had a 25% chance to send a doom horror with send horror. Now it's 10%
>>128935981
It really depends. Later on in the game, armies with mage support will clear out horrors and barely notice that they were cast. They do help out with some circumstances, though -
If you catch reinforcements on their own, you can kill them.
You can use them to raid and set provinces independent for scout capping.
You can bop WoD traps
You can sometimes trigger gem spending (the enemy army has to be fairly small for this to work)
Certain horrors will inflict mage casualties with their damage reversal
Armies that are scripted specifically to answer your demons can sustain heavy damage, and your opponents will need to prep for horrors as well with all of their armies which uses up mages.
>>128936460
Are you sure? Never had a doom horror show up with Send Horror with AC up.
>>128936460
>>128936535
post nerf, I mean
>>128936535
It does happen even outside of AC. 5% without AC up.
Send Lesser Horror sometimes sends a Greater Horror as well.
>>128936151
I know, and that's why they're great raiding/reinforcement smashing tools. I still don't see how they're that useful against a proper army.
>>128936535
So their use against armies is mainly to force the enemy to employ more resources (mages, gems, etc.) per stack?
>You can bop WoD traps
You mean Wind of Death?
>>128937635
Yeah, it's like Ermor/Sceleria's version of RoS except it's vastly more effective against some nations like Abysia.
>>128937635
>So their use against armies is mainly to force the enemy to employ more resources (mages, gems, etc.) per stack?
Pretty much. And then if they don't, they can take nasty losses.
>>128938269
Yeah, I know what it is (had middling success with it as Helheim). I was just unsure about the acronym.
>>128938823
Mhh. I'm still not totally convinced about what >>128934039 said about MA Abysia. Gonna have to try sooner or later.
>>128939054
It's really not great, but Blood is a fantastic school and Warlocks are fantastic blood mages. I would definitely not consider MA Abysia to be strong, given that its most efficient mage outside of its cap is like 180 gold for 9 RP, but Warlocks are good enough to win games.
>>128940064
Yeah. I wish they had apprentices recruitable in any fort, but they they might be too good.
>>128940064
MA Aby is the only hard blood nation in the MA outside Xib and Jotunheim, and the only one that gets dedicated horror casters.
>>128941169
>can only recruit blood mages from its capital
>hard blood
I mean, it has blood magic and it does use it ferociously, but Jotunheim is really the only hard blood nation.
>>128941329
They don't need SDRs to hunt efficiently unlike many other nations.
>>128938823
Triggering gem usage is a big component. Horrors aren't demon or undead, plus they often fly as well so they're a nightmare for unprepared or improperly scripted mages to deal with
Would anyone be interested in an LA game on this map?: http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/the-old-kingdom
I just stumbled across it and thought it looked really dope. It would need at least 8 players.
>>128946572
including picture so you don't have to copy/paste the url.
>>128946770
Maybe I'm bad, but that looks pretty agonizing, logistically speaking. Seems like very few places where you can move more than one map tile at a time.
>>128947276
Fair enough, although that sort of seems to be the trade off for most of the hand-drawn maps that I can think of.
>>128947725
True, I have noticed that. But the skellyton inside me just wants wide swathes of open terrain for that lovely, lovely 3 map movement.
>>128947276
>Seems like very few places where you can move more than one map tile at a time
Atha Avyn and Biddyn are pretty well designed for map movement.
>>128948375
Just meaning to point out that hand drawn maps aren't necessarily logistics nightmares.
>>128934834
>>128934684
Are bless nations OP then?
>>128931505
>kailasa doesn't need buffs
are you mentally handicapped?
>>128948375
Ooh, now that is a very nice looking map. Am I understanding right that the actual mountain tiles are open, but they have the temp-based border blocks? I tend to prefer totally opaque mountain tiles, but this is such a great looking map it'd be worth it.
>>128948550
They don't. Why would they?
Wizzz are you alive
>>128949020
monkey troops are shit, monkey sacreds are magic beings which require magic leadership, which is StR, their sacreds are also expensive for what they are (arrow bait) and they expand like shit.
>>128949412
They expand just fine from my experience. I use yogis and indie priests or shamans.
>>128948659
Red checkered means mountain pass, yeah.
>>128936535
>You can bop WoD traps
Does WoD last outside the battle? Tooltip makes it sound like it does but seems kind of unusual since I don't think there are any BE enchantments with effects that persist outside of the battle.
>>128950746
It doesn't but bopping them is by the horror being sent the turn you move your army in, so fights and makes the trapper dead/flee, so you army doesn't get WoD'd
>>128949642
Exactly you have to cobble together expansion in a way no other nation does. It's unique sure but it's also fucking pointless. Also their summons are a touch overpriced (5-10 over) or a tad under HPed, either way (10-15 under). Kinara is excluded from that, obviously.
>>128950746
Decay lasts a number of turns after the fight is over.
My friend Jotunheim how goes the fight against Ermor?
>>128952742
Post battle reportsand cute muuch
>>128952989
While I do have a spy heading there just to watch the battles I do not have any Ermor reports at the moment.
>>128951024
That's not the point. Their cap mages are amazing and their monkeys can stellar cascade spam. They're fine.
>>128953857
I know; we can see from your screenshot that you don't have a scout there. I was actually asking for battle reports in general from those that had them. I quite like battle reports.
Posting known battle reports.
>>128953947
so they have a good midgame, good luck getting to midgame, because you either get shit expansion and then rushed, or you have fine expansion but your research is gimped, because you have to use mages to lead sacreds.
End report
>>128954179
>buying tritons
>ever
Muuch no
Shamblers are usually a terrible investment too, but tritons are aquatic which makes them just unfathomably bad to buy
>>128954653
I was trying to do a quantity of quality deal and just throw them at my enemies which at the moment consist of independents.
>>128954653
>unfathomably
There's a fucking sea pun here, I know it.
>>128955029
It was less transparent than my usual muuch puns
>>128954993
so you could say you're justmuuching about?
>>128955332
boooooo
c-can I please borrow someone to set bats AI?
>>128928252
It's turn 14, really. Still very early, though.
That said, I'm a little reluctant to include SA data because they apparently had a serious cheating problem at one point. I'd also note that SA games seem to emphasize early game success, from recent AARs.
>>128930123
Skewing means it's shoved in a direction that can be corrected. In what way are the stats skewed? If you mean that there's too much noise, that's possible, except that the nations generally recognized as strong actually do really well.
>>128933838
This might not be clear from the design doc, since I didn't include the full disclaimer, but all of those changes are actually just a compilation of all the suggested changes from different players. I will not be implementing them. That said, hinnom's blood hunters are roughly as gold efficient as bloodhunting with scouts. If you think they have a different more pressing issue, though, please use the comment function in the doc to share it.
>>128934213
Not all of them are. EA agartha is doing rather well. The very top tier are strong bless, but they are usually good at a lot of things besides bless. It's worth noting that there are plenty of bless nations that aren't doing well. (Bandar Log, Kailasa).
>>128931505
They may not need buffs in the same way that Rlyeh does (As in Rlyeh is unplayable garbage otherwise) but they would benefit from buffs to bring them up from "substantially worse than most nations."
>>128932365
The data may have problems, but I didn't think organization was one. How would you suggest reorganizing it?
I also disagree that it was a knee-jerk reaction. The thread lays out some reasoning behind why I decided to use data - and why I'll also be combining it with my own judgment and feedback from other players.
>>128955468
>I'd also note that SA games seem to emphasize early game success, from recent AARs.
SA meta is
>Rush/get rushed turn 7 by the nearest neighbor
>Lose one battle, go AI
>Win, stay for 30 turns
>Are you top 2-3 nation on the map?
>If not, go AI
They play very agressively but they also give up at the drop of a hat.
>>128927342
>>128928559
Man, that took a lot longer than I thought.
Anyway, I'm only going to do a proper report for the first battle, since the second had both of us using mostly the same tactics. I'll just mention what things went different in battle 2 as I write this out.
First up, the armies. Mine is mainly ozelotl, with beast bats protecting the mages. My important mages (an onaqui with an amazon communion and an E2 spectre with earth boots) were scripted to buff them with Divine Blessing (N9B9), Army of Lead, and Rush of Strength. I wanted Mass Regeneration too, but couldn't get a N3 mage there on time for the fight.
The rest of my mages were scripted with anti-undead spells. Dust to Dust, Wither Bones, Cleansing Water., etc. Boring, but there's not much else to do with death mages against large hordes of longdead, and I had some spectres with water magic not doing anything so I threw them in there too.
Also, perpetual storm is up so nobody can fly.
>>128956658
Yes. There's still room for submissions in that, but that would explain why certain nations do better there than elsewhere. Ulm, for example, is a very strong early->midgame nation, when their lack of path depth, lack of crosspaths, and extreme numbers of mages required for a battle start to hurt.
>>128956737
why leogryphs?
>>128956737
Lanka's army.
Large numbers of longdead. Surprisingly few blood summons in there. He's used Dakini before, but not any other Lankan blood summons, and not even as many Dakini as I expected to see. His pretender had N9E5B2. He also brought a very large blob of priests.
He used more big spells than me. Mass Flight, Doom, Earthquake (only a single cast and most of my stuff flies anyway), Antimagic, Rush of Strength, Howl (made me very glad I gave my mages a bodyguard), Fog Warriors, Light of the Northern Star (no idea why, he had something like two astral mages on the field), and Ground Army.
>>128956961
When my pretender woke up I had an N9 caster and not much stuff to use my nature gems on, so I grabbed a few levels of Conjuration and summoned some extra troops. I've since found better uses for those gems, but I have animal summons left over.
In hindsight, I probably should have saved the gems. I recently reached Balams and don't have a lot of nature to summon them with. Stealing Gift of Health from Lanka is probably more to blame than my summoning habits, but even a few dozen more nature gems would be nice.
>>128958084
Gift of Health is massively underrated. It provides a huge bonus to fighting in your dominion / when attacking from your dominion, especially with an N9 bless (which you apparently have)
>>128958084
Lanka's strategy seemed to be spamming Banishment as much as possible while his longdead delayed my troops in melee.
I quickly began to regret putting my Spectre mages inside my Ozelotl blob, since Banishment was hitting them too. Their cold auras also added some fatigue to the Ozelotl, and even managed to freeze one.
My Arch Devils over to the side were geared to hit things in melee, and were buffing themselves.
>>128958497
It's really nice, but I mainly stole it so I didn't have to fight into it. My dominion is currently not even present on all of my own provinces, let alone other people's. Attacking from my provinces isn't an option either, because Perpetual Storm is up and the adjacent provinces are already captured.
This battle was in enemy dominion, so GoH had no effect.
>>128958497
>goh
>underatted
>goes up 90% whenever someone has Mother Oak
k
>>128956869
Ulm has blood though. And vamps are really, really good.
>>128955468
Bandar Log isn't a bless nation you fucking retard
>>128954294
Use diplomacy.
>>128958829
My leogryphs end up fleeing shortly after my ozelotl reach melee. At least they tanked some spells first.
Fog Warriors is now up, and is slowing down my ozelotl's kill rate considerably. My anti-undead spells and some misaimed banishment from Lanka is helping a little.
You may notice one of my Arch Devils has vanished. He got banished to inferno by the Prince of Lust, massacred a bunch of imps, and left inferno the next turn.
The second fight went so much better than this one because Fire Storm quickly removed mistform from everything. The actual kill rate on Fire Storm wasn't massive, but it made my ozelotl kill everything so much faster.
>>128959448
>The actual kill rate on Fire Storm wasn't massive, but it made my ozelotl kill everything so much faster.
Yeah, that's actually a big deal and why I had guessed that Fire Storm was the difference between the two fights when you mentioned that you put up additional spells. It also pops longdead fairly quickly.
>>128959259
>>128960336
If you're autistic I can't help you.
>>128959448
Constant Banishment from so many priests and melee combat with myriad longdead is taking its toll on my demons. The Prince of Lust has also set most of them on fire, which is not helping matters.
However, Lanka is losing large numbers of undead holding my ozelotl in place.
Because Lanka's priests are blessed with N9 and buffed with antimagic, blood vengeance is having much less of an effect than I'd hoped for. He ends up losing 4 priests total out of 33, and I'm not even sure they died to blood vengeance.
In the second battle I had fire resistance to prevent my troops being set on fire, and the battle ended much faster so my demons spent less time getting banished by priests.
>>128960578
Lanka's forces start routing, but most stay.
I'm running out of Ozelotl, and there are still many skeletons left.
>>128960447
no I just think "use diplomacy" is a ridiculous answer to a question of balance
>>128960934
Lanka's forces finally rout properly right before the death of my last ozelotl. Almost all of the skeletons are dead now, and the rest dissolve quickly once his mages have left.
>>128960568
It's not great. It's got trash mages outside of its cap and its infantry are expensive. What makes it playable is having very good blood mages in its cap and that's about it. Recruit them, do some blood hunting, get some demons going.
>>128960934
Why did he rout? Turn limit?
>>128961141
Last picture. Here's the remnants of my army after the battle. Luckily I had reinforcements within walking distance for the next battle.
>>128961209
I'm not certain. It might have something to do with blood vengeance hurting his priests, or maybe the vampires and markata which died.
It definitely wasn't turn limit since not all his forces routed, just a few priests. >>128961141 might have been turn limit.
>>128961129
It's saved my ass dozens of times. Yeah, Marveni probably wouldn't be played at all if everyone bum rushed them from the get go, but they tend to survive.
>>128961515
you could have just said "git gud" and it would have amounted to the exact same thing as "use diplomacy"
I will not partake in a discussion with someone who can't understand the difference between a tool a player brings to the table and the tools a nation has natively.
