Dueling Network General #2000
Waving goodbye to autism edition
Last Thread: >>123500238
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XTH FOR STRONGEST
Xth for Vet is the weakest
>>123572717
>they won't be monarchs in the TCG
You're a funny guy.
Accel is now the president of /dng/. Long may he reign.
Why isn't the structure deck called Monarch of Darkness in the TCG?
>>123572827
Why don't you shadow duel him if you're so tough?
>>123572848
>He can count the number of accounts this time
Heh
What other Generals do you sluts follow
>>123573061
>>123573271
Nek minnut
Going to war to save waifus
>>123573184
How about you crawl into a skunks asshole and duel yourself you pathetic little dipshit
Stop ruining the thread!
Guys I'm not the fuck accel guy. I hate accel but accel himself is false flagging to make me look bad. I won't post who I am because it's not important. Ignore accel and his alts but I'm not him.
What deck do you always quit against because of its bullshit?
Occasional reminder that having a waifu makes you better at card games and that you should apply at least 1 ancient philosopher's teachings in your everyday dueling.
Whatever happened to winking disorder general?
>>123573629
Whenever Yuuya smiles I believe it's a miracle of the universe. He usually looks punished.
Marcus Aurelius is my duel spirit.
>>123573271
Of course it is.
See? He stopped posting about accel already. Ignore him and his alys from now on and lets talk yugioh.
Can Yosenju make a comeback this format?
>>123573841
Way too slow to deal with PePe.
>>123573841
Fuck you accel Yosenju were never good
>>123573841
No way in hell.
>>123573990
What if I add the clown engine to it to speed it up?
Super Quantum Mirror Match is crazy!!! And kind of awkward. But mostly crazy!!!
>>123574057
Still too slow unless you toss the entire PePe engine in while you're at it.
>>123573271
>>123573061
I think a real Shadow Game/Duel would freak all the Dimensions because while being carded or potentially killed kind of sucks, getting your soul sent to hell to be ravaged by demons is arguably worse.
>>123573990
>PePe
Who?
Clearly you mean EMEm.
>>123574057
Rank 4's are yesterday's news. It's all about 6 and 7 now.
>>123573565
When Magicians manage to summon Apex Avian(s). They really ought to limit that one.
>>123574178
Having your entire being sealed in a strip of paper is pretty fucking grim. Who's to say Academia doesn't operate that way? We see all the cards being fed into some sort of machine.
>>123574381
Maybe they're going to pull a Dartz and try to feed all the cards to some kind of dormant super-demon.
How do I make a deck based around her viable?
>The extra NS Gem Knight is Level 5
>Clowns give great access to Rank 4
>Speedroids give amazing access to Rank 3
>All without taking up the normal summon you use to initiate combos with via Blue/E-Tele/Alphan
SpeedKnight Performangers.
What do you think?
>>123574471
Their objective is to Fuse the four dimensions into one, so the machine is probably related to that. In which case the souls are no doubt passing through oblivion.
>>123574591
Why are you bothering with XYZ spam now that Exciton is Excigone?
>>123574591
>Using Clowns and Brilliant Fusion for filthy black cards instead of glorious white cards
absolutely disgusting
>>123574305
>Apex Avian is unbalanced
>>123574471
>Super Demon
>Fusion Dimension
>Wishes to fuse all the dimensions to one.
Yubel?
Majik kaado, Chou Yuugo hatsudo?
>>123574810
Hmm, what's that I see on the right of the Extra Deck? It looks like a Synchro, except it's the wrong color.
>>123574591
well sentai is all about team work so it does make sense
>>123573565
Psy-frames. Fuck that shit.
>>123574653
I wish there'd be that one guy that would point out that it's kind of like they're trying to synchronise or overlay the dimension with each other.
>>123573216
Souls. Bloodborne. Not touching BBG until I'm done with DLC.
>>123573341
I'd make general on the anti-waifu armada.
>>123575546
Synchro is a technical amalgamation of a weak component overhauling a greater component, XYZ is a sort of 'our powers combined' shenanigan that breaches dimensions, and Fusion is just mashing things together; so you could make that argument.
>>123574531
You don't. You play Dark Magician Gaga with maybe one of her in it and make Magi Magi with the Gagagas and be damn grateful that you can even do that.
>>123573216
there are other generals?
>>123573184
>>123573087
>>123574009
>>123575075
all of these are accel telling himself to fuck off
>>123574305
found the pojo
>>123575856
>you play Magician's Valkyria
Fixed
>>123575872
Who even is Accel
judging by his popularity he must be a pretty cool meme
>>123575872
Dude you're annoying. Stop shitposting so much.
>>123575751
If you think about it, Tribute and Ritual are the most morbid form of Summoning. Because, y'know, the phrase and act of "sacrifice".
>>123575985
I dont know some ass-burgerking faggot who likes to reply to himself
>>123576119
you're confusing me with someone else
do I need to make a tripcode just so I dont have to deal with getting called some other asshole?
>not that making a trip wont automatically make me one
I need help
and I also miss Future Fusion
>>123576363
Where the fuck is your Montage Dragon
Where the fuck is your Star Eater
>>123576495
I killed them alongside by other copies of CED, Labradorite and Consonance
>>123576349
>>123576283
>do I need to make a tripcode just so I dont have to deal with getting called some other asshole?
It's pretty obvious you're false flagging to make this accel guy look bad. In reality you look desperate. It's pretty obvious with these posts you make after "he" shitposts.
>>123576916
I don't know what that is
>>123575012
>tfw summoning Super Quantum Magnas with 9 Xyz materials
>tfw ensuing Super Quantum rampage
You guys weren't kidding. That was amazing!
Does Montage Dragon come with free lensflair if I get an OTK with it?
>>123577152
im too stupid to understand what you mean
why am I desperate and why is "he" constantly shitposting
Anyone know what mat i should buy? I was thinking of just getting a battle pack 3 mat but I'd like to know your opinion on mats.any good ones with cute grills on them?
>>123577428
still in stock and now there's a farm girl score pad for only a cent
>>123577428
Inked Playmats has (had? I don't know if it ended yet) a 50% off sale on their custom playmats.
Otherwise, just use whatever the cheapest normal-sized mousepad-mat you can get until you actually win one.
>>123577575
aforementioned scorepad
there's also traptrix, ghost ogre/ usagi, ulti apelio, gungir mats
>>123576363
Really though, I need help here, I can't find out the sweet ratio for anything even after testing it over and over.
Not sure about the extra either, 50% of it is just shit only Ultimaya can summon
>>123577931
Here's the last Chaos-Dragon style deck that I've seen top.
Pretty far off from your build though.
>>123578049
>3 Gorz
the absolute madman
>>123578049
Well that works as a Chaos deck rather than, well, Chaos Dragons, seeing how there's only 6 maindeck dragons, I'm trying to keep it pure dragons here.
>>123578209
Take your unfunny absolute madman meme back to /v/eddit
>>123578303
You sure told him.
>>123578303
>/v/eddit
only accel would know that word you turd.
>>123578395
>tumblr image
Not as bad as /v/ memes at least
>>123578049
>3 gorz
but why?
>>123577789
Mind giving a link?
>>123578860
core tcg
amanda lapalme (Dragonduelistgirl) for artist
rate
Speaking of Shadow Games, what was your favourite one that didn't involve Duel Monsters?
Here's a list in case you need reminding:
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Shadow_Games_(manga)
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Games_of_Darkness_(first_series_anime)
>Ever paying more than $5 including shipping for a mat
absolutely haram
>>123579205
>42 cards 3 Into the Void 3 Upstarts
well meme'd, my friend.
>>123579205
>upstart
>2 trade in
>no opt for rank up
>those ratios
deck idea is good but fix your shit
>>123576363
>0 (zero) Felgrand
>0 (zero) of the new Blue-Eyes synchro
>0 (zero) of Dr. Red
>>123579501
don't know if ya'd count it cuz >zorc but it was a nice ending to the og/season0
>>123579523
do people seriously do this unironically?
fuck hoban I hope he gets cancer
>>123579523
>introducing money again
>$5
accel for the love of God, LEAVE
Rate
Are my ratios enlightened enough?
>>123579983
Wrong Gem-Knight in the Extra.
>>123579629
>>0 (zero) Felgrand
I hope you mean the Xyz
>0 (zero) of the new Blue-Eyes synchro
I didn't really see much use for it, but I can take out Twin Burst for it because to be honest with you, it's a trash card, but not one that suits me perfectly.
>>0 (zero) of Dr. Red
But I doubt I should take advice from blind people.
>>123580094
Whoops. Nice call.
>>123579983
>Lapis Lazuli in the Extra
>>123580116
My mistake on the REDMD one, but yeah the Felgrand Xyz is basically essential for Rank 8 decks. I'd include Heliopolis and Lancelot too to be honest but I can see how tight the Extra is in your deck.
Reminder that YCS Sao Paulo is this weekend but nobody will care because it's in Brazil.
>>123580701
BR? BR BR BR BR
>>123580701
will Accel be there?
>>123580479
Not him but I find Heliopolis useless since there are other 3000 beaters like Tachyon and Thunder end that BEWD.deck can use
I agree with Lancelot though. He helps to get in the last few points to steal games as well as shut nasty stuff like Dark hole and Castel down
>>123581150
too busy replying to himself
>>123581191
Lancelot is such a fucking bad card. If you're going to close out the game with one move, might as well CED them.
>>123580479
I don't see that much use for Heliopolis.
Lancelot... I've considered it, but the nigger can interfere with my plays as well, and I don't fucking want that.
Surprisingly I've found more consistency by going over 40 cards, the extra 4 cards don't feel as if they add noticeably bricking because I just ditch them for consonance/melody/trade/etc.
>>123581459
>6 ( S I X ) Vanillas
all aboard brick city
>>123581446
>might as well CED them.
CED can't really do shit now that it MUST be the only effect/card you activate during that turn, and the damage is based on your opponent's cards.
It's just a beatstick to me.
>>123581571
Holy shit I thought I just added one labradorite
>>123581150
>>123581345
FUCK OFF ACCEL
>>123581712
this meme needs to die
I dont know who you are but you're the biggest asshole here
fuck you
>>123581703
It doesn't die to battle traps and only needs to send 7 cards. Being forced to negate is the biggest downside and I'd rather use another copy of Prime since there's probably not going to be anything with more than 3600 ATK to make it deal less damage than a Lancelot direct.
>>123581459
>Surprisingly I've found more consistency by going over 40 cards, the extra 4 cards don't feel as if they add noticeably bricking because I just ditch them for consonance/melody/trade/etc.
That's the funny thing about BEWD decks. Due to all the search and draw engines, you can go about 2-5cards over and still gain decent consistency because the extra cards are either more resources or cost fuel.
>>123581446
>2015
>Using CED to close games.
CED sucks now since they neutered him, he's only good as a beater.
>>123582209
didnt he get reprinted in the new millenium pack?
heres to better cards, Ra phoenix mode was cool and all but I need more
>>123582579
Yeah, He and his buddy BLS are in it.
>>123582209
can we talk more about this?
I feel like theres more decks now that can run the extra 2 to 5 cards
when will percy fix angmar?
I've waited all week and its still broken
>>123583280
EMEm can run 60 cards and still be consistent
>>123583468
I almost believe this
>>123583281
don't forget all of the wrong pics and cardcar D fucking up
I still want to discuss magicians. Odd-Eyes build is so much fun but Performage build is better...
>no female only archetype has ever been tier 1
When will the misogyny end?
>>123583694
let's talk this over by posting a bunch of variants for me to steal and use
>>123583694
Then fuck off back to reddit.
>>123581864
it's not a meme you fucking shitposter FUCK OFF
>two 2000 threads
??????
>>123583659
its like he's purposely trolling with the ayy lmao
>>123583919
Harpies were meta when the new support came out
>>123584060
you know who you are, stop shitposting
>>123584015
2 part special
>>123583940
>>123584060
forgot pic
>>123584118
yes I do know who I am, and I'm not shitposting>>123584263
the real question is who the fuck are you
>>123584407
I hate it when people feign ignorance. just stop shitposting please.
>>123584630
put your trip on so I can filter you please
or should I just filter >stop shitposting please
>>123584990
you know very fucking well no one should fucking trip in this general, just leave us alone
>>123583280
Monarchs, MeMe, some LS builds are what come to mind.
Monarchs got that Pandiety card which is bullshit
MeMe has Monkeyboard, Joker and Sorceror
LS runs over 40 to prevent suicide.
>>123585401
>LS runs over 40 to prevent suicide.
no
>>123580116
>I didn't really see much use for it
It is almost objectively superior to summon the Spirit Dragon than to summon Azure Dragon. Since the Spirit Dragon can summon Azure Dragon by itself.
Its ability to negate graveyard effects is also quite fearsome. Since pretty much every deck uses them.
When they try to remove your Spirit Dragon and targets it or whatever, you tribute it for Azure Dragon and their effect fizzles.
And if they summon a fearsome monster you can't defend against with your current field or Azure Dragon, you summon Moonlight instead and get rid of it immediately.
>>123583280
Shaddolls used to be easily able to get away with running 42-45 cards. There was also that 60 card Shaddoll/BA hybrid build which made a little splash.
>>123585896
>Azure Dragon by itself.
>Its ability to negate graveyard effects is also quite fearsome. Since pretty much every deck uses them.
Such as? BA is dead, Infernoids are a joke, Chaos doesn't exist and synchron type decks are a joke
The only thing it can stop is monarch floaters but good luck summoning Spirit Dragon much less
>>123585896
>tfw Spirit's effect doesn't count as a Synchro Summon so you can't get out Sifr/Quasar
>>123587174
You've got to have balance somehow.
Floating into quasar is a near unbreakable wall which gives you a 3300 beater afterwards
Can Fluffals run over 60 cards?
What deck can regularly shit out beaters stronger than 3k?
>>123587618
Noble Knights
>>123587462
Holy shit accel fuck OFF
>>123587696
>TFW negating a 5-equip Noble Nerd
>>123587618
Galaxy
>>123587917
>negating a
Mexican pls leave
>>123587618
Trains and Malefics
>>123585739
its plausable
>>123585401
monarchs can do thjat now?
>>123586683
yea but we all know what happened to the big 4 that format. for once konami nerfed the archetype and not general cards
>>123587092
what about the unizombie + jet synchron.dek? ive seen it do cool stuff
>>123587917
>not summoning Dark Highlander for maximum butthurt
>>123587092
>Such as?
Trick Clown and Damage Juggler completely escaped your mind?
>>123587618
Skull Servants can theoretically Normal Summon a 14k King. In a regular duel, he can usually reach 8-10k. You can also just have 2 out, each with 5-8k.
>>123588781
Really? I never saw Spirit Dragon negate them on YGOPRO.
I guess the card is still bugged
>OCG exclusive boss monster for a TCG archetype
>non-americans using computers
>non-americans using internet
>non-americans browsing 4chan
>non-americans in /dng/ shitposting
The only people that should be allowed to post in this general should be americans and japanese, you know the only ones non-shit on this game.
>>123588940
That's because Spirit Dragon was bugged.
It should be fixed now. They fixed it on Salvation at the very least.
But before it would just tribute itself for the special summon effect whenever you tried to negate a graveyard effect. Without even giving you a choice. So it's no wonder you didn't see it since it wasn't possible.
Why the fuck is odd-eyes fusion spiking but odd-eyes vortex is dropping.
>>123589638
You're not even american why do you care?
>>123589713
I am american though...
>>123588962
>bring BA and UA to Nipland
>give OCG a new BA boss that greatly improves the already full power deck ft. Rhino
>don't give UA the 2nd L4 and L8
>not even the Fusion Boss Signing Deal would allow
>>123589881
You're a piece of shit canadian, not american.
>>123589638
Vortex is available as 2 rarities, so it's much more common.
>>123589881
>>123589638
Fuck off back to reddit.
>>123590128
I get the logic behind why its lower, but why is Fusion spiking by like 100% while Vortex drops by about 30%
>>123589964
Canada is still (North) America
>>123589940
Holy shit accel, FUCK OFF
>>123590368
Canadian =!= American
The only Americans are those born into the United States of America.
You can go back and kill yourself on your fake france.
>>123590374
That was Blu not accel.
Getter Robo archetype when?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uRUPEN8F9U
>>123590575
Manga did it already
>>123590575
Is that some rip off from Tengen Toppa?
>>123590528
Shit sorry. they post alike thou
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNAqdiOmxnM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN1_NRLb9Qw
>>123590662
But it sucked. We need a better Getter Robo archetype. One that becomes a tier 0 deck.
>>123580701
>MeteorD
>Date
That man only talks about sucking dick on skype calls.
>>123590968
They sucked but they looked cool.
We can't do a Getter Robo deck anyway now, Ritual Beasts took the gimmick they should have had.
Who on /dng/ regularly streams/has an active YouTube channel? I wanna watch the personalities behind this general.
Alright lads I'm finally ordering my cards
Is Troll and Toad safe and good to use?
>>123591081
Sadly.
>>123591290
It's fine
>>123591096
FUCK OFF ACCEL
>>123591290
I find them to be overpriced. For anything over $5 you might want to check eBay for better deals.
>>123591096
Me ;)
>>123590528
>implying I'm a good trip/avatarfag
I'm Iron Core, and I stopped using a trip.
>>123591310
I wanted a deck with that gimmick for many years, and I was so disappointed Ritual Beasts were the visual motif they decided to go with for it. I had built up this whole image of jets or vehicles in general swooping around combining and then separating to dodge shit and recombining (what Ritual Beasts didn't actually do since I always imagined the deck being able to re-contact at instant speed built in too, Ritual Beasts got Bonds to do it but it's not the same thing) and we just get Gusto 2; Electric Boogaloo
>>123591469
Fuck off you dum redditfag.
>>123591567
FUCK OFF ACCEL
>>123593548
I'm not Accel.
I'd Shadow Duel you if I was at a computer, stop shitting up the thread with non-Yugioh discussion.
If you had to pair a deck with these holidays, what would you pick:
New Year's Day
Easter
Independence Day (for any country with one)
Halloween
Thanksgiving
Christmas/Hannakuh/Kwanza (each one).
Your birthday :3
>>123593875
>anonymous shadow dueling anyone
That's not how it works you little shit.
![WFh62EX[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/hHaKx7p.png "WFh62EX[1].png")
When having to think in other card games gets me down, it's nice to make a tier 19 shit deck on a whim and consistently beat the only good deck of the format.
How do people like Hoban and Leblanc play this competitively
>>123593875
>I'd shadow duel you b-b-but I won't
>>123594191
Big fish in a small pond syndrome.
>>123593875
What a fucking pussy
>>123593875
>Easter
Madolche
>Independence Day
D/D/D
>Halloween
Ghostricks
>Thanksgiving
Noble Knights
>Christmas
Kaiju
>My birthday
Gravekeepers
>>123595540
>calling half the thread Accel
>repeatedly call me Accel
>think I won't get tired of it
Discuss Yugioh or get out.
>>123595573
>D/D/D Independence Day
Do explain
>Kaiju Christmas
>I got you a present! It's Godzilla!
>Owner's Seal it back and proceed to nuke their monsters
Pottery
>>123595573
>>123593875
>Independence Day
>Not Ayyliens
Fucking underage shitters.
>>123594191
Why did he quit?
>>123591664
Same. I could make the cards, but I know how much you guys hate CaC.
I'll just post more music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaJw6lqGFew
>>123595876
I showed my hand after gorzing
So, why aren't you guys playing Go Fish instead?
>>123596345
Requires more skill than yugioh players are used to
>>123596345
too hard t b h
>>123573216
emugen
ssbg
fgog (not recently though)
utg
>>123588381
needs life points
>>123596345
>play go fish
>Always lose
It requires too much skill.
>>123594191
My nigga Bboy how you been?
>>123596345
Too easy.
>>123596345
The meta is too competitive.
>>123596345
It's fucking expensive.
>too late to remove Sharpie
I wrote on the originals so that autists wouldn't get mad about me using a legal card as a token (I've had it happen at Regionals on multiple occasions). Now I have my 'full' sets of Scapegoat and Stray Lamb tokens. The Scapegoat one turned out poorly, going to make another. What cheap foils would be good choices for tokens?
>>123598910
Forgot image
>>123596345
Sorry, I play a superior game instead.
>>123599296
>>123579205
You can probably get away with running just two stardust in your extra deck.
>>123597236
>>123597248
>>123597520
>Think this was actually a joke and tried a game of Go Fish
>Got absolutely shitted on
well, fuck
>>123600332
Fucking lisa
>>123578209
>>123578617
Do you see any traps in that build, fucking retards?
>>123600843
You sure told them 4 hours later.
>tfw opening hand is scale 1/8 and 3 Apex Avians
>tfw still maining 3 Fiendish Chain because i'm mostly seeing rogue and PePe which still gets hit by it
>tfw watching PePe scoop up their cards real fast like when I first turn DDV them
Why are Blackwings SO BASED?
>>123601235
>Go first
>Open Kepler, fusion contract, Necroslime Vanity's and Errors
HOPE YOU OPENED MST FAGLORD
>>123600332
git gud
when will Odd-Eyes Vanity happen
>>123583659
>almost
believe it.
>>123600332
Git gud.
>>123601502
>>123601623
Look out guys, we got some pro Go Fish players in the thread.
>>123596345
If Go Fish had anime pictures I'd pick it up
>>123601745
>Not playing Japanese Go Fish where they have anime fish as the cards
>>123601662
I have been enlightened by Confucius.
>>123601809
>A-am I kawaii, fisherman-chan...
Does EMEm have a searchable answer to T1 Winda?
>>123596345
>Open the box
>There's actually fish on the cards
based
>>123602002
Why does it matter if it's searchable? Couldn't you play 6 cards that answer her instead of 3 and 3 searchers?
>>123601137
I sure fucking did.
>>123602154
Deckthinning and not having to devote 6 cards in your deck just to beat a dead meme deck.
>>123602154
I'm not asking as an EMEm player, I'm asking as someone playing Kaiju Dolls. I can't think of anything they can do in 1 turn that's searchable.
>>123602253
If it's a dead meme deck, then why waste deck space at all playing answers to it? Do you see how silly posing the question "does x deck have searchable answer to y"? If the deck was relevant you'd play more dedicated answers, and if it isn't then why waste space at al.
>>123602002
>>123602352
Mirror.
Normaling something and then special summoning something.
Use a floater to set up on opponent's turn, or swarming enough so you have enough monsters to special summon on your next turn.
Not really that hard.
>>123584015
The first one was created by a shitposter. It was actually 1999
>>123602002
Normal Skull
Search Partnaga
Skull is 2400
Beat over winda
>>123602736
It's highly unlikely this one is 2000 either so how you can be so certain this one is the REAL 2000 and the last one was DEFINITELY 1999 is beyond me. Whether it's too low or too high I don't know but it's very obviously not actually the 2000th thread.
>>123602998
Meet said shitposter.
>>123602736
>The first one was created by a shitposter
So it was you?
>>123603219
caught me ;)
>>123602962
Alright, they do have at least 1, thanks. Anything else?
>>123603136
Shut the fuck up, Pot
How would Kozmos fare against full power Nekroz?
Been playing a bit with this, looking for advice. Haven't played HERO since Hero Beat was a thing almost 3 years ago.
>>123603440
Nekroz deck's ace monster is Trishula. What the fuck do you think?
>>123596345
Requires more skill than yugioh, no thanks.
>>123603694
I thought you started playing FoW?
>>123603440
They lose.
>>123603742
Oh no, I'd never play anything but yugioh t.bh. Tried Mtg and Pokemon and they're ok, but I'm sticking with yugioh.
>>123603973
>t.bh
lmao desu
>>123603451
Have fun getting over Dark Destroyer without Excalibur
>>123604003
baka desu senpai
>>123590575
getter robo better be nothing but fusion and synchros that replace themselves that deal effect damage just to confuse everyone about burn actually being good
>>123604262
Ideally, it should be something like Ritual Beasts, with the Fusions being able to separate and combine at instant speed, just like the manga/anime.
>>123602119
>Lobster
>Whale
>Fish
Does Book of Moon stop Psyframe Circuit?
>>123602119
Better art than yugioh to be honest
This game's dead as fuck.
>>123605129
this. yes. do this
>>123606237
wrong board
see fighters general or blazblue/undernight/persona/etc.
>>123604262
>They all have different costs which create their advantage and are basically their real effects
>The effect for the cost is to inflict 100 damage
Sounds hilarious.
>>123606936
and taking advice from a few minutes ago they all act like ritual beasts to cycle effects and combo into your bad ass boss monster
>text like "You can only use the effect of X once per turn" is abolished
How fun is the game now?
>>123609031
BA all day every day
>1 Graff, 2 Cir
oh wait
