/evn/ - 50 hours of "gameplay" edition

Wait, is "the letter" actually claiming to be 50 hours long? Have these people ever made anything before?

threadly reminder to go make a real game instead

Whenever I see games from new devs promising that many hours of story I just think the clock is ticking until their failure. Writing it is only one aspect of the problem.

>>122965191

now I can't help picturing the letters appearing on screen one by one, with a full transitition

>>122967342
What range of words fits into an hour of reading anyway?

>>122969651

the average reading speed is 200-300 words per minute.

>>122969651
15k but people will argue 10k-20k. You'll need 500-600k for a 50 hour VN. Again it's not the writing that's going to kill your time but the polish.

bump ;-;

>>122972962
That's a lot of words.

>>122978168
Yeah. I'm expecting to see a lot of failed tags on the VN KS list in two years. Even WW spends many years on his 200k word rpgs and he's seasoned and got a support group of writers.

Why did The Letter get funded? I didnt see that coming.

>>122979059
No one knows. 500 backers for 30k is pretty insane. 66$ average when most KS are 15-25

>>122979360
14k of that was between 6 people in the higher backer tiers. Whether those were legit backers or some kind of outside funding is open to interpretation, I suppose.

>>122979059
If you look at the chart, something must have happened in the last few days.

So anyone play the demo for quantum suicide?

>>122985040
I tried it but it felt pretty barebones and rushed up. I don't know how this is supposed to convince me to back them.

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I don't know if I should talk about this here, since it's an english VA, or /d/, since it's about fetishes.
http://growthacademy.socialparody.com/pg/forum/topic/15007899/first-time-visitors-read-this
It seems really good so far.
I think this is the most appropriate place to talk about this. If it isn't I apologise.

>>122987941
>english VA
>VA
This mistake really threw me off. I was lagging for like five minutes trying to understand the meaning of this post.
Silly me.

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>>122987941
wut

>>122988279
Ha, really sorry about that.

>>122987941
Are you paying for talent or looking for volunteers?

>>122989236
I myself am doing nothing. Just saw that project and got interested. I think they're only looking for volunteers, though.

>>122985040
Nope, haven't heard of it.

>>122978168
For you

Somebody reply to this.

>>122998343
Here you go.

Post progress

Figuring out channels is hard. I take back what I said about music directing being easy.

>>123001794
Started coding. Understood that making labeled rectangles in MS Paint is easy but long and boring, considering how many rectangles should be in there. Imagined how much time art is going to take. Proceeded to drink and watch dota.

>>123001794
I'm sometimes tempted to make an unassociated project to post on here.

/evn/ do you think we'll ever grow enough to have it be safe to post dev stuff here?

>>123010136
No, Because it's never safe to post dev stuff anywhere, no matter how "big" your market is?

>>123010136
Do you think you'll ever stop being a pussy and making excuses for not having the backbone to?

>>123011179
What about you? Lets see your game.

>>123012121
I'm not working on one.

>>123012870
You cheeky shit, go make an evn right this minute or else.

>>123012870
Hi JP

>>123010136
Depends on what you mean. Like, things that usually fall under NDAs?

>>123014437
There's a stigma for posting here

>>123014973
Which is funny as most of the devs on here know the other devs on here.

>>123015483
Thats still plausible deniability

does everyone have lives, of something...?

>>123022586
/evn/ having lives, doing any work or having something? Don't think so.

>>123022586
No, I just have Boston Legal and body pain.

>>123022586
yes

>>123022586
I have just a little bit.

>writing romance route
>its the same character back to back in scenes

Fuck.

Question: What were your motivations for first getting into making evns?

>>123027150
VNs let me arrange writing, art, and music to tell a story cheaply and relatively quickly. If I wanted to make a film I would almost certainly have to compromise my vision to get funded. With the VN format I have complete creative control and nobody can stop me.

*evil laughter*

Safety bump

>>123027150
I saw some shitty ones

>>123027150
anime boobs

Why is editing so mind numbing....?

>>123032631
*raises paw*

>>123027150
Money.

>>123038669
Anyone play this? It any good?

>>123039983
Yeah it is. It's free too

What should I do if my games are never longer than 30 mins? I could see complaints over charging even $0.99 if it's not 2 hours long minimum. Should I make a bundle of short stories so I can reach the two hour mark? But then people might not want all the games in the bundle.
I don't want to water down a game with useless things to extend playtime. What options are there?

>>123045116
Keep it free dummy. Then when you make another longer game, charge.

>>123045116
30 mins too short for commerical.

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Threadly reminder to NAME AND SHAME (con)artists.

I chickened out at the last second.

HEY

Why it so dead past few days? Wake up.

>>123045116
Why are your games never longer than 30 minutes? Obviously you don't just spread out 30 minutes of content to make 2 hours, but making 2 hours worth of genuine content isn't that hard, especially if you are asking people to pay for it. Even a lot of Nanoreno games sit at around 2 hours.

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>>123014973
what kind of stigma? Can you provide an example of people shitting on a project because a progress post was made on /evn/?
If you say "it was in our sooper secrit skype chat/hangout/whatever", I'll stab you in the eye. No one cares about those things, and people who do still wouldn't have played your VN.

>>123058553
Leave it, anon. It's an excuse people give because they don't have any actual progress to post. Source: me.

I had an idea, though I'm not sure if it would be better served as a traditional book rather than a VN, but I like the multimedia elements of visual novels. At any rate, what do you think of it?

So you have this empire with a legislative senate and lots of mostly independent governors in a fantasy setting. And then a usurper rises from within the Senate to have the king's ear but ultimately betray him and seize power. So, the governors and nobles raise their armies to oust the usurper, and eventually prevail.

However, once the dust settles, it is revealed that the Imperial family was killed. So, with no clear succession, different forces come into play for who will rule next and how they will rule.

You have the Oligarchs, who are Senators that want to elect one of their own to the position as a "constitutional" monarch. They feel that the failing of the old system was the dynastic element allowed for a simpering idiot of a boy to be manipulated and eventually disposed of. If a bunch of old statesman of good breeding a distinguished careers pick one of their own, this scenario will not be an issue.

On the other, you have the Royalists, who are headed by a barbarian king. They think the failing was that the Emperor had too little power. In delegating his authority so leniently to people like senators, it gave rise to excessively intrigue and gave the opportunity for the usurper to amass the power for his coup.

Finally, you have the Republicans, led by a general of common blood, who think the issue should have been resolved by letting the people choose their leader - no more violent coups and bloodier civil wars for the sake of bloodlines. They think the problem is that the previous system ensured that any outsider taking power would need to do it violently.

And these three factions cannot agree, and so they fight to determine the future of the empire.

Basically, this scenario is Romance of the Three Kingdoms meets The Legend of Galactic Heroes.

>>123060606

First issue is where did the barbarian king come from.

What you've provided is an extremely barebones outline, and so there's no other clear reason it might not work as a story. Political dramas are fanatastic breeding grounds for betrayal, intrigue, and philosphical discourse.

There's no reason it couldn't be good, unless it's written poorly. However, unless you have an extensive knowledge of history and/or political machinations, it probably will be.

Research as much as you can and plan extensively, is my advice.

>>123062303
It's a Roman sort of situation where they've paid off and sort of assimilated barbarians on one of their borders to keep other barbarians out.

>>123062773

Mongol kinda thing?

But muh enriching barbarians.

>>123063297
I was thinking more about some of the Byzantine interactions with different steppe people

>>123063428

Pardon me, missed the Roman part. Sounds neat. Have you studied history in depth?

>>123063508
I'm an enthusiast, but I also do some analytical writing about current events

>>123063582

Cool. Do you have any experience with VNs?

>>123063668
I've read some stuff like FSN, Muv Luv, and a few other titles. I've also dicked around with Renpy and have some programming experience.

>>123063760

That's a good start. What's your plan for getting a team together?

Holy fuck somebody might just have a team here.

>>123063864
Fuck if I know. This would be my first attempt at a polished, team-based creative endeavor, though I did do some novel-length fanfiction back in the day and tried to push myself creatively as a writer. It's not like I haven't spent extended periods of time to finish a project.

I guess I would hit up the Lemmasoft forums after getting a significant chunk of the writing down and perhaps having written for someone else's project to have established myself somewhat. The preparation would involve a detailed outline with character notes, worldbuilding details, and perhaps a quarter of the script written.

>>123064157

Well shit, you actually do sound like you know what you're doing. Musicians are easy to find, though you should try to find one who already works on stuff that will sit your project. Programmers are also reasonably common, given each project only really needs one.

All I'd add is that you might want to consider deviantart for artists once you're ready.

Would you consider crowdfunding, and are you expecting to go commercial? Both those things will also impact how you manage the project.

>>123064360
I've always wanted to write a novel since I was a kid, and I've fallen in love with the potential of the VN medium because of the multimedia elements it can add to hit the audience in the feels.

Commercial? Maybe. I just don't totally trust that my writing is worthy of money, and I have other significant time commitments. I tried running a quest on /tg/ but essentially ran out of time

>>123064838

No EVN writer's work is worthy of money, believe me, but here we are. You won't make any real money, but it might help if you're considering paying your artists, which you will probably need to if you want people who are good and consistent. A good background artist is impossible to find without paying one or having the devil's own luck.

>>123065072
Commercial or not, I would be fully prepared to drop money. With money, I can likely get better art to realize the vision and hopefully worry less about flakes.

>>123064838
>I just don't totally trust that my writing is worthy of money

Stop right there. This is the worst mindset you can have. Self awareness is good and it prevents you from sounding like a tool, but if your writing is good enough of us to read, it's good enough for you to sell.

Otherwise it makes it sounds like "hey, it's not good... but it's free!" .

If you want it to be free, it should be because the team agreed to it or because you want it free on principle, not because it's not good enough.

>>123065375

That's admirable. You may want to consider using your own funds to finance a demo, and try to crowdfund the rest. A few projects have done it that way. You may want to do some research into how much art is going to set you back - bear in mind most good BG artist usually charge at least $100 per. Sprite artists and CG artists can also be hella expensive.

The alternative is as you said, gain a good reputation, and gather an art team that way. If you have artists who are working with you out of passion and friendship, you have something enormously valuable. Getting your name out there as someone known for quality and being enjoyable to work with goes a long way.

>>123065376

In the grand scheme of things, it isn't. For what I charge, people can read Joyce, Heller, or DFW. For free, they can read Shakespeare. I'm exaggerating, I suppose, but the point I was making was that the standards for visual novelists are very, very low.

I fully expect that someday what I write will be good by all standards, not just those of the insulated EVN community. I've improved meteorically, but I am still very, very far from being a great writer.

inb4 people at LSF are shouting "higher prices for objectively bad art."

>>123065763
If I were to do a demo, it would cover the setup: taking back the throne from the asshole usurper, introducing the key players for the main conflict.

>>123066165

I'll admit I only know the rates of the artist's I've worked with, who have exhibited an almost 1:1 correlation between price and quality.

>>123066000
None of those have waifus.

I'm just saying, you're coming from a false-equivalence of mediums here. You wanting to improve is admirable, but you comparing yourself to people who weren't aiming for the same public is just silly. The authors you listed would be absolutely fucked writing something for comics or television. If you want to write a book or screenplays, do that. If you're writing a VN, you're writing for the public that reads VNs and the expectations are different. I won't argue most VN writers are shit, and almost every EVN writer is even shittier, but it's a different form of entertainment and should be treated like such. Oranges and apples.

>>123066000

Yeah, but unless you market your vn as a "shakespearean experience" then the comparison is null. VNs are a whole, multimedia experience - books HAVE to have good writing because that's what they offer the reader.

VNs can get away with 'decen't writing because you can compensate with art, music. A lot of things.

It's like comparing a movie to a play. Are they similar? yes. Can they be measured using the same standards? No.

(It's also entirely possible that you are good enough to charge, but you don't see the value in your own work.)

>>123066327

Good call. I'd suggest planning it out, then examining what you'd need for sprites, BGs, CGs, and music, if you plan to pay for that. You can hire cheaper people if that's what your budget covers, and possibly up the standards with future work. Alternatively, you can use the cash you have now to hire good artists, and hope the higher quality brings you a higher kickstarter return if you go that route.

All told, however, I'd defitely suggets getting experience with VN development and team management before you consider dropping cash, so joining an established project for a while would be a great first move.

>>123066463

The fundamental rules of good writing are similar, regardless of medium. A great novelist can transfer skill with characterisation and prose to a VN format effortlessly, and it takes little time to undertsand it's possible to reduce prose and rely on the visual element. I suppose if people really want waifus, then I have waifus to spare, so there is an argument to be made there, I admit.

>>123066492

Several identical standards can be applied to both film and play. Each requires skill in pacing and characterisation - as too do visual novels.

Again, you're right, the art elements do add an extra layer, and I suppose to people who enjoy the waifu life, EVNs do offer something not found elsewhere.

>>123066391
I still follow that thread and investigate the posters.

>>123066894

I haven't seen it, but it sounds like I'm missing out.

>>123067164
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=32809 this is one of them.. I think I came across another one just recently.

>>123067164
And this http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=34513

And this
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35568

>>123068969
>http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=34513

> that market analysis

well, that was actually a nice read.

>>123069242
Tempus save us from the psuedo-unions of LSF.

Short protagonists are annoying to get the sprite perception correct. I've got tall guys who have their heads off-screen because she wouldn't see anywhere near eye-to-eye with them.

>>123068850

I'd listen to Tempus. Dude is unbelievable at what he does, thinks hard, and is a top bloke to boot.

>>123068969
>>123069242
>>123069919
Shots fucking fired, God bless Tempus.

>>123070380
>I'd listen to Tempus.
There's a bunch in that I'd disagree with in that post. First off, if you don't post prices, I'm very likely to pass you over automatically. If you don't know what you're worth, you probably don't know the workload involved. It is a warning sign.

The other big one that annoys me is the pricing part. In the words of an HR friend, "I've got 100 people in the hall and half of them have more impressive art than you. Why should I hire you?" Assuming things are equal (and a lot of the time they are), I'll play this government style and be a lot more likely to go with the lowest bidder.

That's why I always stress people to make the field uneven. Make friends! If someone is vouching for you, I'll take the increased cost if it means less risk. Have a portfolio related to what is commonly commissioned in VNs. Get your name out there and attached to projects. The more experienced artist is going to have an easier time landing the better paying jobs. Sometimes that means taking the lesser job to build that network.

There's not a ton of good paying artist spots in EVNs. If you don't try to prove and distinguish yourself, it is going to come down to price and that's a losing game for an artist. It's not what you know, it is who you know and who knows you.

>>123071918
>First off, if you don't post prices, I'm very likely to pass you over automatically. If you don't know what you're worth, you probably don't know the workload involved. It is a warning sign.
This is exactly the kind of client I want to avoid by not posting prices, and I make a living off making assets for games. If you'd pass on someone for not having rates publicly available instead of inquiring based on quality, you're just not the kind of person i'd like to work with.

To each their own, and it seems both our selective manners are working out for us. I just wanted to show it isn't as one-sided as you think, from the freelancer perspective you're also being passed on precisely because of what you're passing others on.

>>123072347

EVNs do have tight budgets, though, so unfortunately, cost does play a large part in who can be commisioned. I agree that in a perfect world, we'd grab the artist with the style best suited for the project, but that's rarely realistic.

>>123072347
But that's the key point here. In a perfect world where there is only a couple people, I could take the time and inquire. When I literally have hundreds of options and most of them are within the same skill frame, it becomes competitive. Little things matter. That's why my stress point is more find ways to build yourself up as a better option.

Once you have those extra factors that distinguish you, you can afford to be selective since you have the extra stuff that makes you stand above the tide. If you are Rookie McRookerson, there's only so much selectivity you can afford before you're going hungry.

>in equal partnership
>partner friend really wants to hire someone pricey and whose work I think is mediocre

Hilarious the topic is commissions and price for once. I'm sure he'll budge on it if I press but he really likes the guys work.

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What do I really want?

>>123072347
>>123073662

Unless you have a rare skill. At that point, you can basically demand the commissioners bend to you because they have no other options. There aren't too many skills like that though since this is the internet.

>>123073351
An inquiry for a quote costs nothing to the client. It's not a marriage proposal, it's business. If you like what I do a lot, you'll ask me what is my going rate. If it's something you can afford, great. If it's not but negotiable, even better.

It's only a big deal if you can't afford my services or don't think they match your expectations based on the price if you let it be. However, to avoid future issues with people with that mindset, I prefer not make my rates public. I really hate the idea of being picked based almost entirely on price because it tends to make clients try and use me to emulate someone else as a poor man's X or knockoff Y rather than what they see me do.

>>123073662
Of course, I don't mean every rookie should just stomp and roar when they don't get picked because their shit doesn't stand out. I don't think the hundreds of options are equivalent in quality, and those that are tend not to be so in a positive shared quality either.

Not advocating for picking just anyone in the slightest. Picking a freelancer you like a lot (as opposed to someone who is cheap only because they're cheap) seems to be the best way to prevent frustration for everyone and wasted money for you.

>>123073743
I'd say vn logo is a rare skill. There's two good logo people on lemma and one wont do anything thats not wholesome content while the other is $250-350

>>123073991
>An inquiry for a quote costs nothing to the client. It's not a marriage proposal, it's business. If you like what I do a lot, you'll ask me what is my going rate. If it's something you can afford, great. If it's not but negotiable, even better.

It's still a waste of both our times.

>>123073991
>An inquiry for a quote costs nothing to the client
Time.

>>123074089
>Hey, I saw your ad for commissions on Lemmasoft. I have a project coming up that I feel could use your skills. Could you give me an estimate on your rates? Thanks in advance.

Copy and paste this. There, your time at least is saved.

>>123074232

> artist responds "depends on the amount of time and your budget."
> I now have to summarize the project
> artists responds with rates
> have to go over rates

and that's not even accounting for a possible negotation.

>>123074304
Yep. Not to mention the fickle ones who see a promising project and bring up royalties.

>>123074304
You didn't take it literally, right? Because you could summarize those in the first e-mail and just copy and paste that to other artists.

You guys act like sending out e-mails is the hardest thing in the world when it's for something that should interest you, as it pertains to getting someone that catches your eye to work in your project and make it better.

Is it any wonder why there's a certain fear on the freelancer side someone who doesn't even want to send out an e-mail when it benefits them won't be very effective/responsive when it comes down to feedback or payment?

I'm sorry guys, but this is why I don't list my rates. If you're not interested enough to engage in a conversation with something that will affect your project that much, I can't trust you to do it when it's time to take care of my productivity or interests either.

>>123074540
If someone can choose between a great artist that lists their rates and a great one that doesn't, why would they ever take the latter?

>>123074540
Sometimes you have to just admit you're wrong.

>>123074540
Can you post some of your art? Just curious.

>>123074540
I'm also an artist and agree with you. You've done a good job explaining. I don't think you'll change their minds, but at least they know about this now.

>>123075023
It doesn't sound like you're choosing the artist based on their work. You're seeing equal quality, but which style is best for your game?

>>123075286
>but which style is best for your game?
Ah, so this is how you talk yourself into thinking the way you do.

>>123075023
Different styles? I can't honestly say I know two artists I would rank the exact same on everything.

>>123075181
Yes, and sometimes you get told that by people who are objectively wrong. If you have a serious business proposal addressed to one individual, it makes perfect sense to give them a sense of scope when asking them their rates. If you are advertising your skills to everyone but don't know the scope of the projects you'll get coming your way, it is not necessary for you to say how much you'd charge because you just don't know yet. or because you want people to contact you only if they like what they see rather than settling for your prices right off the bat.

>>123074540
Dude come on. You're making backgrounds/music/whatever for shitty weeb games. Come off it. We're all indie devs here, no one is working for a corporation.

>>123075286
I don't think anyone on the dev side really gives a shit about style. They're just happy to be able to afford assets.

>>123075450
No one working in EVN is so uniquely talented that someone matching their skill who lists their rates can't be found.

>>123075589
>>123075629
>>123075657
If you don't give a shit about style and just want any assets of a certain category, you're just not a good match for the type of person who doesn't list their rates. That's my whole point.

Okay guys so I think if he or anyone else doesn't want to say his rates thats perfectly fine. I also think he is wrong implying people who dont inquire are shitty commissioners.

Does that about sum it up?

>>123075629
Okay. I was wondering why so many evns look undistinguishable from each other.

Why is this an argument if both sides are happy bypassing each other

>>123075992
Indistinguishable* I'm half asleep

>>123075905
But I do care about style. The thing is, none of you have a unique enough style to warrant this whole discussion.

;_; tfw having a hard time condensing plot to imply something else other than just humans.

>>123076264
give us more details and maybe we can help.

>>123075992
Indistinguishable in that they (almost) all look awful? Beggars can't be choosers. The vast majority of us can't afford to commission professional art, or even decent quality art for that matter. When a decent level artist with affordable prices does come along, they're bogged down in projects within a week.

>http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=35682
This, for example, I imagine has a ton of projects already.

>>123077147
>help
Ew, I'd rather yell at artists and writers I'll never work with.

>>123077267
Hot damn those BGs. Fair price point and quick turnaround. Damn.

>>123077267
Yeah they'll be full until mid 2016.

>>123077147
It's shitty as hell mang, after all, it's a product of my weebo teenage years. Anyway, I'm almost done with updating my recruitment thread.

Is anyone else here not writing a conventional "romance" VN?

>>123078974
No but i'm worried my conventional romance vn will be too cheesy for the masses.

>>123078974
I'm worried my conventional romance vn isn't too progressive and colorful.

>>123078974
I'm not. I don't find that genre interesting and I wouldn't be very good at writing for it anyway.

>>123078974
Would you consider netori conventinally romantic?

>>123081139
>netori
Game? This is my fetish.

>>123078974
Is it a conventional romance VN if it barely rises above subtext?

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LMR devs showed their BGs.

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WTF IS THIS SHIT

>>123087038
Does arsenixc work for free for them because they're fellow ruskies?

>>123088423
Why would he work for free for a commercial game?

>>123088138
>bunnysuit
>heterochromia
>bikini maid
My next EVN purchase, looks like.

>>123088490
I don't know. I just don't see where they'd get the money to pay what he charges.

>>123088512
you are why we can't have nice things

>>123088138
Oh god this is disgusting.

>>123088138
The colours look all wrong.

>>123088729
How much does he? Where did you get the info from?

>>123088939
It's really inconsistent in the steam screenshots, some look much worse than others.

>>123088423
>for free
What gave that impression?

>>123088729
Their CG artist is pretty pricey, too. There's lots of resources for devs; previous games money, gov grants, running russian scam rings, etc.

>>123088803
The only thing stopping you from having nice things is you.

>>123089561
I'm just discouraged by people spending money on obviously terrible games while neglecting ones that work hard to be better.

>>123088138
Looks like an aj tilley game.

>>123089743
The shocking thing is that it apparently isn't.

They're spawning.

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>>123088138
>charging almost ten dollars for this ugly piece of shit
>only two choices
>one of the reviews says "Clealry trying to be a sakura game but without the writing or good art."

>>123089274
Who's their CG artist?

>>123089973
>without the writing or good art.

> people that have played a total of 1 VN

>>123089684
No one cares how hard you work. They just care if it's good. And they don't care what you think is bad, either.

>>123088138
>Clealry trying to be a sakura game but without the writing or good art. Seems like it was drawn by amatuers which is a real shame because good art would have helped hold my interest a lot more. Where the sakura games are sexy, these women are just grotesque. Story also seems like it was someone's first attempt. The time traveling concept is interesting, but the jokes aren't funny. At least there aren't any terrible grammar or puncutation errors. That's one thing this has over the sakura visual novels.

Holy shit this review was so fiery and burn filled I came a little

>>123090203
>They just care if it's good.
No, they don't.

They just care if it's tits.

>>123091194
And that's good in their eyes. Like I said, they don't care if YOU think it's bad.

>>123089684
Which game is working hard to be better? Yours?

>>123092504
gosh, I'm so wounded by your edge. i will go rethink my life.

No, I'm talking about EVNs on Steam in general. It's not difficult to look through the list and pick out a few games that are clearly putting in a lot more heart and yet getting less response than the latest AJ Tilley nightmare.

And the reason why that matters to me is that I would like more people to make games that I want to play. I want good games to get good sales. I don't want Steam to be flooded with terrible bug-eyed scrawls, I want to see good stories.

I mean, it's frustrating enough when people buy games with godawful writing just because the art is pretty but at least teh Sakura series is making SOME effort.

>tfw making "classy" fanservice game

Maybe I should just make it trashy after all..

>>123093446
Was your only reason for making it classy to seem better than the rest? Then yes, just make it trashy and stop lying to yourself.

>>123091941
I agree, but I want to follow up on this point because I think it wasn't totally clear in your original post, and because I think it's something that gets lost a lot when we talk about our art form.

When you say
>They just care if it's good
this sounds like there's an objective goodness to be measured. And many people fool themselves into this trap, when they talk about stuff like "if you make a good game, it will create its own market".

But it's perfectly possible to create a game that everyone who plays it agrees is 'good' and yet no one wants to buy. Or worse - no one wants to play it at all.

What makes people desire games is complicated. It's hooks, it's marketing, it's a lot of things, and any individual metric of quality is often going to turn out to be irrelevant.

Sometimes we say "there are no good EVNs" but that's often because we've chosen to define "good" as "not EVN" and made it impossible.

>>123093446
Depends on whether the classiness itself is appealing. If you're just trying to cover up what you actually think the selling point is, you're probably shooting yourself in the foot.

>>123088138
Kind of reminds me of that Order of Ataxia game, except much worse art.

>>123093630
>>123093790
Yeah... well my art isnt as crappy as the other imo but i guess i should just embrace it and make everyone J cups and whores.

>>123094028
>make everyone J cups
Now that's just all wrong. You have to have cup sizes for everybody, from the flat lovers to the obscene.

>>123094028
>>123094260
You have to have diversity in your boobs. Cover all the bases.

>tfw chocolate cock is kill

I love fanservice games that have dumb premises that aren't afraid of what they are.

>>123093357
You seem a bit sensitive. I was merely asking for an example of a game that "tries" harder so we can check it out, but obviously you can't even bother giving concrete examples to try an promote those games.

You're complaining that people focus on crappy fanservice without paying attention to other projects. You see, if you don't actually GIVE an example of an overlooked but otherwise decent VN, you're doing the same damn thing.

>>123094260
>>123094347
I've looked at the trends for these games and having identical body shapes seems to be the winning ticket.

>>123094484
And you can make that ticket golden if you throw in an obligatory pettanko or two.

>>123094652
I really don't see why the hell flat chest fans would want to play my big breasted bimbo game... It's like having an otome route in a yuri game; for what purpose?

>>123094957
>It's like having an otome route in a yuri game; for what purpose?
Putting yuri routes in otome games is common though - for the purposes of getting desperate yuri fans to buy your otome game, and/or because you actually like yuri but don't think you can sell a fully yuri game so you just cram a little bit in on the side.

If you like flat chests but are scared you'd be branded a pedophile if you made a game full of them, sticking one into a game otherwise full of luscious creamy mounds makes sense.

If you don't actually like flat chests then don't put one in your big breasted bimbo game because it's wasting everyone's time.

>>123095234
True breast lovers enjoy all sizes.

>>123096167
including lopsided, missing, and inverted nipples?

>>123096167
nah
go big or go home and drink some milk until they're big

>>123096376
Inverted nipples are god tier. If i have to make an h patch for my game i want one of the girls to have them.

Those other two not so much.

>>123096167
I love breasts but not bumps on ribcages

>>123096476
Too big just looks creepy. You want enough to squeeze and squoosh and wrap around things, but not so much that disembodied heads could be hiding inside.

>>123096750
>that disembodied heads could be hiding inside.
That some psychiatric ward shit who thinks about heads growing inside of breasts?

>>123097253
No one, but I couldn't think of a better guideline for the 'too big' cutoff mark. Bigger than a head is probably too big.

>>123096750
I think so too, but my idea of too big probably isn't yours. I like them biiiiiiiiiiig. Not amorphous and veiny, but big and a big saggy even.

>>123096376
Missing is not a size. Neither are nipples.

>>123097902
I think h cup is pretty good as the high mark. I cup+ and it always gets into actual balloon tier.

I like a little saggy, nothing extreme, but only because it tends to take more skilled artists to draw saggy vs balloons

> article about the game
> they use a screenshot from before the textbox padding was fixed

why.

I miss 90s anime torpedo tits.

>>123098059
True, but they're diversity in breasts

This conversation has me wondering- Is this thread mostly male or female?
http://strawpoll.me/6075665

>>123099236
/evn/ is 20% men and 80% women and foreigners. Utter scum.

>>123099236
>Other
Are you fucking kidding me?

>>123099634
Do you feel silenced?

>>123099236
I always forget that the majority of this scene is female. Does that make me an institutionalised sexist?

>>123098893
>review of the game
>uses screenshot of game version that hasn't been on sale in over a year

are they reviewing from pirate copies or what?

>>123099236
I hope you girls are all cuties

>>123099914
No, just a victim of the patriarchy which oppresses us all. We feel you, anon.

Now put on these tight jeans so we can feel you better.

>>123099914
It's easy to gloss over how many creative types are female. Even ajtilleys shit show seems to employ female writers and female artists. WC is similar.

>>123100220
It'll scan better if you write it as "AJ Tilley's Traveling Shit Show". Almost sounds like an HBO series.

>>123100403
I prefer the "AjTilley Scamstarter Association" myself.

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>>123100403
Carnivale, but with VN making.

Sounds awful, but we'd get thick females all the same.

>>123100049
>fujoshies
>cute
I'd like to think so myself, anon.

>>123100049
>girls in gamedev
>cute
The trend is either homely, fat, or unnaturally dyed.

>>123101248
I'm glad you separated fat from homely, but there's objectively nothing wrong with chubby qts.

>>123101248
Dont forget how ugly the guys are too anon. Gotta keep it fair.

>>123101349
Good thing cuteness is subjective .

>>123101248
But anon, homely girls are the best.
And I still love dyed hair even though it's become associated with SJW-nutjobs.

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>9 grills in this thread

>>123101509
Your standards are. Mine are the absolute truth.

God bless thick girls. They make life worth living.

Attractive and escaping into wish fulfillment fantasies dont really mix. Attractive people dont got time for waifu making because they usually have one.

>>123101937
Not necessarily true. Depends on the type of wish fulfillment.

>>123101937
I have to disagree, different people have different reasons for being unhappy. I'm more than reasonably attractive and that never stopped me from being a bitter piece of shit with negative relationships.

>>123101937
I have two waifus and I still enjoy spinning fantasies. I'm not attractive though.

>>123102885
Either you're using that word incorrectly or you haven't proven him wrong at all.

>>123100049
I'm horrendously ugly, would you like to be my valentine deito?

>>123103012
Would you wear a paper plate mask with one of the Sakura girls' faces on it?

>>123103012
If we're not talking some birth or accident deformation here, you just have low self-esteem.

>>123102404
>I'm more than reasonably attractive
Last guy who said this to me ended up being fat as fuck and spilled food on his shirt as he talked. If you're not getting a ton of poon you're ugly.

>>123105802
I'm thin and get more proposals from men and women I'm comfortable with. I don't fuck everyone because I'm not a slut, but hey, I guess that means I'm ugly.

>>123105802
Ugly fuckers can get laid if they're sufficiently pleasant to be around and/or not picky. The biggest problem is being the sort of jerk whose jerkiness isn't even sexy, so that no one actually likes you AND no one pities you. Some reasonably attractive sociopaths completely fail to get laid because everybody hates them.

>>123105802
Even ugly people can have lots of sex, anon.

>>123106181
Frigid bitch.

>>123106429
Please no reverse slut shaming.

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>>123106181
>anorexia
>attractive
maybe to fashion designers

>>123106619
You don't get it. Girls look their best when they're soft. Boys need to be lean and hard.

>>123106778
> boys need to be hard

l-lewd!

>tfw no cutie evn dev to cuddle and collab with
Why go on.

You're all beautiful and I wouldn't fuck most of you but I would happily look at you naked, probably, as long as you weren't doing anything too disgusting at the time.

>>123106929
No one cares what you think you ugly weeb fuck.

>>123106929
/evn/ nude tinychat when

>>123107018
You too can know the love of your neighbor.

This convo is pretty gross when i remember 80% of the ones talking right now are girls.

>>123107318
Really? To me it feels like a harem.

>>123107318
Oh, I'm sorry, are you straight? We'll try to be more sensitive to your feelings.

>>123107318
lol at your shit taste sweetheart
>no stinky fujos with Cheetos stains all over their folds
now i'm sad

>>122964562
Are there any resources out there how to ensure that English VNs aren't going to be offensive?

>>123107318
What do you have against the purest form of love?

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>>123107720
No but its really gross to think these neckbeardy fedora posts might be girls.

>>123108047
That's pretty hot, actually.

>>123107973

not offensive as "not terribly bad" or "sjws don't have complains" ?

>>123107973
Certainty does not exist.

> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/love-language-japanese#/

> 25,000usd for a vn steal- 'reusing' assets.

>>123110240
Do you still think they're stealing it? Action would have been taken by now.

>>123110689

Even if they are not, the fact that they refused to post proof beyond "we promise!" is shady as hell and I wouldn't give them 25k.

>>123110905
When you think about it, it makes sense. They wouldn't want to publicly admit they were too cheap to make new assets for a game for a new market instead of repurposing old ones.

>>123110240
Everytime I see this project my blood boils... fucking haha they had to use that shitshow indegogo. They're from china or something.

>>123110689
I don't think they stole anything, but I don't think they need free money either. Why should they get handed artwork and cash that others have to work for?

>>123111208
"They" being Will Plus, I mean.

>>123111231
>They're from china or something.
they're in Japan.

>>123107973
obviously these things exist but you're going to have to define "offensive" and what you're trying to avoid

>>123111231

What's wrong with indiegogo?

>>123111417
same thing

>>123111575
It's home of the scams.

>>123111575
They're mildly low-rent compared to kickstarter, and more favored by shysters since you can keep all the money whether you can reach a target and do anything with it or not.

Plenty of legit projects there though.

>>123107973
Not possible. The best you can do is get feedback from diverse groups of people. However, no matter what you do, someone will probably hate it, so don't stress over that.

However, if someone's looking over your script and tells you "X is offensive" you would be wise to research and listen.

>>123112776
>However, if someone's looking over your script and tells you "X is offensive" you would be wise to research and listen.
No.

>>123110240
>the budget is... the rewards

What the fuck

>>123112876
No? Why no? I'm not saying to take what they say as gospel, but if it's something that can be changed if need be, it doesn't hurt to look into it further and see if it's a one off thing or something you unintentionally fucked up on and WANT to fix so it doesn't bother people.

>>123113092
Because you shouldn't care if someone thinks something is offensive.

>>123113398

This. People will ALWAYS find something to bitch about, so might as well ignore them.

>>123113398
Well, that's usually how *you*, the writer, rationalize it. They're not really offended, they've dealt with this shit for the better part of their lives. They're just disappointed.

>>123114063
Tell me why I should care.

If people are offended, well, too bad. Steam has a refund system, it seems.

The product is what it is.

>>123114221
You don't have to. You have absolutely no reason to care about what random people on the Internet or Out There think. You have no reason to take me seriously either. Why are you taking me seriously? I'm a random Internet nobody.

>>123112776
>However, if someone's looking over your script and tells you "X is offensive" you would be wise to research and listen.

Not gonna pander to sheltered people whining about everything.

>>123114582
I'm not. If that's what you think, why did you just tell someone else to take random people seriously?

>>123114845
My entire original post was under the assumption that the writer DOES care.

If you don't give a shit then duh, you don't give a shit, this doesn't apply to you.

>>123115084
>Caring writers
>Probably with a checklist of restrictions
>2015
>Ah, times have changed indeed.

>>123114864
They asked first? If you don't care, you don't care, and no reason I could possibly produce will make you care and I wouldn't even consider trying to convince you.

>http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=560361856

This doesn't look bad-
>We’re planning on starting an Indiegogo campaign in January, mainly to raise awareness

Hope it fails.

>>123115376
If you try to avoid "offending" people with a checklist, you'll fail miserably and hobble your writing in the process. Don't bother.

I say this as someone who drafts advisory Don't Write This Shit On The Syllabus, You Moron brochures which ultimately boil down to a checklist.

>>123115376
>whining this hard over the thought of even briefly listening to anyone's opinion

I disnt nid 2 lern spllin either, my creative friidom!

And in fact, you don't. You are perfectly free to release a badly-written game about Otto The Nigger And His Five-Breasted Whoor. None of us will actually stop you. Maybe you'll find success.

> http://cliqist.com/2015/11/21/look-transgender-characters-video-games/

> include end game spoilers for the MAIN CHARACTER

why do this, it's not even a review of the game.

>>123116215
>If you try to avoid "offending" people with a checklist, you'll fail miserably and hobble your writing in the process.

You can't avoid offending people by following a checklist, this is just a plain fact. You can possibly avoid offending a particular person by following that particular person's checklist, but others won't agree.

That said, guidelines and restrictions do not always cause horrible damage to writing. Sometimes they can be to the benefit of your work. Sometimes they're simply neutral. If you're writing for a commercial release, you are already operating under certain restrictions, as you have to avoid writing certain things for legal reasons.

Most restrictions are conditional and depend on the audience you are speaking to and the marketplace you are presenting yourself in. There are many things you will want to avoid in specific stories because they clash with the style and the tone of that story.

If someone comes along and tries to tell you to excise major portions of your already-written story, it's a very different matter.

>>123117362
I didnt read or care about what you're complaining about but that list... no wonder trannies are always screaming at people to put them in games. It's just sad.

>>123117362
It's a pretty terribly-written article in general, not to mention that you could get a better listing of characters by just wandering over to TVTropes or something.

>>123117362
>putting a character that is not transgender and you clarify is not transgender in your article about transgender characters
?

>>123117875
Eh cliqist does a pretty good job. They also really like VN and have done non-crowdfunded reviews of some for fun.

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>>123117362
>I like to joke that there are fifty shades of gender but honestly this is very close to the truth

>>123118167
Yeah, nothing against the site and if you take it as this one blogger's personal fave characters (which she sort of specifies it is) then it's fine. But if you're looking at it in a hurry and think this is a list of the best trans characters in video games, it's a pretty sad list full of gender-bender jokes and missing a LOT.

>>123116872
Spelling and grammar is something you can't argue with though... unless you're catering to an audience with equally shitty standards.

>>123117362
3 VNs in the list... I get a feeling that their community flock to the medium because it's easy as hell.

>>123118867
A lot of people argue over grammar and writing-style a good bit, though. Cue the next fight over whether or not (insert VN here) actually has good writing or not.

>>123118867
>3 VNs in the list... I get a feeling that their community flock to the medium because it's easy as hell.
Again, this is not a list of trans characters in games, it's a list of a few trans characters in games which that particular blogger played and liked, and she clearly likes VNs.

"There's nothing better than spending my evenings resizing sprites", he said.

>>123119296
Have a cookie.

>>123125735
I want to date a cookie.

>>123126432

soon in siliconera "dating sim starring cookies"

>>123126583
Well, they have one for cakes.

>>123126432
>>123126978

Somebody made a bread gajinka VN in the LSF ideas section no so long ago.

>>123134443
I think I found what you're talking about but it's just bakery/bread themed, not human bread.

>>123135213
Human bread? Like humans being dried out, ground to a flour then baked?

I just realized i show way more of my vn art to my friend that actually likes it than the ones that say 'looks good' or have a more lukewarm response. I guess im insecure after all.

>>123136858
Honestly, the other friend is better than the first one because your "good" friend might be coddling you.

>>123139265
But I like being coddled.

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>>123139515
Time to grow up, anon.

>>123139265
I think he genuinely likes it hes the only one who wants to do a game with me, too. Art is hard i want to be coddled sometimes.

> writing from the perspective of a very intense character
> my stomach starts hurting from the intensity

Am I the only one?

>>123136578
Google gijinka.

Don't you die on me, Snake.

I hope you like cheese because my romance VN has toxic levels of it.

>>123145491
But i'm lactose intolerant

>>123145491
Is it the hipstery moldy cheese?
Is the toxicity level Britney Spears toxic or System of a Down toxic?

>>123145954
Smart.

>>123146183
You're a clever girl yourself.

>>123146321
Too bad, I'm a straight Asian guy.

Deciding on an artstyle, would Katawa Shoujo-artstyle characters go well with photographic backgrounds? I can be bothered drawing the characters but not with drawing backgrounds, and would much rather just take real-life pictures from online or around my living area instead.

>>123147381
Katawa Shoujo itself uses photos that have just been filtered

Do you lose interest in dating games after you're in a relationship? Do dating games seem like they're written by people who have never dated? Have you ever had a bf or gf?
http://strawpoll.me/6078988

>>123148961
1. No, I would prefer if games would follow what happens after. I hate unneeded drama that is just added for filler. I want to know what happens after. That's the reason I play (romantic) vn, so I can get the warm feeling in my chest whenever cute things happen (like hand holding/hugging/kissing).
2. Not that I've noticed, but that's probably because of question 3.
3. No, I am a pathetic kissless virgin. I do not think visual novels are even meant to be realistic anyways, more like wish fulfillment? Real people don't act like the ones in VN.

Rain is a writer's curse, lads.

We live in a time were Muslims are venerated and Christians are bigots by default. I'm just bumping.

Human trafficking simulator? Tell me to go back to /pol/ so I'll do away with the "sensitive" topics.

>>123158036
>>>/pol/
because I like being the only shitposter around

>>123158036
Can't we just have a fun sex slave game without having to try to be edgy about it?

>>123148961
>Do you lose interest in dating games after you're in a relationship?

No, lots of people still enjoy them even if they're in relationships. Plenty of people go with their bf/gf to romantic movies, after all. You can still appreciate other romances if you have your own.

I have the impression that people who have their own relationships are probably less obsessive about their game waifus, though. I wouldn't be surprised if they play fewer games and spend less.

>Do dating games seem like they're written by people who have never dated?

Sometimes, but a lot of 'romance tropes' bear no resemblance to reality anyway so it doesn't make that much difference whether you've been in a relationship or not.

In some games I protest that the writer has weird sexist ideas but that doesn't mean they've never dated, some people are actually like that.

The ones where I do wonder if the writer has ever seen a woman are usually when we get into physically impossible (or at least very unlikely) things having to do with bodies.

A bra with straps cannot simply fall off while a girl is running.

>Have you ever had a bf or gf?

Yes, but less than five of them, so not many.

>>123148961
>Do you lose interest in dating games after you're in a relationship?
Kinda. I usually spend all my free time with my significant other when I am in a relationship, and it's usually not a lot because I'm a workaholic. That cuts on the gaming time, that was already not a big time slot. In my last relationship I would play stuff like that if I'm playing together with her, before we broke up.

>Do dating games seem like they're written by people who have never dated?
Very much so. The majority come across as being written by people who have never so much as had an internet relationship, much less any physical action.

>Have you ever had a bf or gf?
A few gfs, no bf.

On that last thing, I got a serious marriage proposal by a close male friend a few months ago. He said it was for different factors than romance, but did not disregard the possibility of it being a real marriage and used the word "commitment" quite a lot.

I didn't exactly turn him down either, but I didn't respond to it other than saying "we'll see how it goes" because I'm afraid of ruining a good friendship and going gay together isn't exactly something we had in mind. It just seems like the convenient thing to do given the current situation, and that's scary as hell. So I'm kind of postponing the decision even though I know neither of us are ready for a new relationship, would most likely prefer it to not be with a guy even though we could deal with it, and I want more of actual marriage than a greencard and a friend I fuck deep down.

There, anyone looking for a BL plot, just go for it.

A character dies.
Another character was pretty close to him, and several have been working with him. How sad should the atmosphere be?
I'm asking because I've recently participated in a co-worker's funeral and the mood was a good bit lighter than expected, so I'm confused if the story should be realistic (>implying anecdotal evidence=realism) in this aspect.

Hard mode: the mentioned characters get serious problems of their own. Should the guy's departure lose much meaning?

>>123163093
It really varies. Grief comes and goes, and many people do not wish to display their emotions too openly in public. A light, joking atmosphere helps keep your mind off it (and sometimes, you think the person 'would have wanted' everyone to be happy and sharing good memories, not breaking down.)

So for a funeral or a wake or other general get-togethers, I'd mostly expect life to go on, with possibly a few characters falling into distracted sad looks occasionally and then pulling themselves back together. If they all have serious problems of their own, it may also have a tendency to segue into black humor. "Poor bastard! Better him than us!" "I'm not so sure..."

For someone who was particularly close, *especially* if this is the first time they've lost anyone they were close to, I'd expect things to be much more messy. Brittle cheer in public, perhaps, but with a lot of emotional variation in private.

>>123164372
The first time a friend of mine died (in high school) I was basically nuts for about a month. Couldn't sleep well, couldn't eat well, could barely manage personal hygiene, and every day I was constantly reliving where I was at that time on the day she died. It's like Ben Sisko on DS9 - "You Exist Here." And, you know, a couple of private screaming fits and other things.

But for the most part, people around me would just have seen me looking a little tired and distracted, telling too many self-deprecating jokes, and occasionally blatantly using the tragedy as an excuse to get out of things I didn't want to do. I'm sure I looked much better adjusted than I felt.

>>123166193
What the fuck is up with those gradient suits.

>>123166950
They call it 'ombre', it's all the fashion these days.

>>123166193
>DMMd fan game

Please find something better to do

welp, I created japanese names for my characters but ended up writting a scenario that could be anywhere in the world, but japan.

I guess my mistake was to think: "anime style, visual novel... JAPAN!" and now that I'm organizing backgrounds, it downed on me...
Good thing I can change most of their names...

>worried about sprites and style since i hate sameface/samebody/etc
>finally get a second sprite line/color sketch done
>looks different than the first but stylistically the same
THIS IS THE BEST.

>>123168838
Superior Nippon and How Dare You Even Reference Asia crowd are like SJWs and /pol/. You want to like at least one, but end up disgusted with both.

Help me, /evn/!
I'm not a native english speaker, but I'm (almost finishing) my first script. Should I send my script for professional proof-reading?
How do you guys do it?

>>123172983
Yeah, a professional would be best. However, its also very likely you could find someone to give it a once-over. They won't be as thorough as someone you pay unless they're really interested though, so the most they might do is fix spelling mistakes and a couple grammar issues.

>>123173096
I protest. Draco Malfoy would NEVER be seen with that many wrinkles in his shirt. Not even in the middle of the night.

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> when the color brings out mistakes that weren't obvious in the sketch nor in the lineart
> they are composition mistakes

Fuck.

>>123180197
The savior of BL!

What made you want to make a VN, anons?

>>123184067
Sagara Family made me aware of their existence.
Crescendo/KS showed me how the medium could be used for creative writing outside of porn.
Cradle Song confirmed my suspicions that it could be used outside of romance.

>>123184067
I want to kiss cute girls.
Without having to play some loser male.

>>123185690
That's sexist.

Background cost for my new game is around 1400... I'm a poor dev, too. Wonder if readers will even care about the backgrounds?

>>123186296
1400 for how many backgrounds?

>>123184067
I don't have enough contacts to get my own anime yet

>>123186720
>tfw you were born in the wrong country for your low budget project to become popular and get anime and manga adaptions
Not that it would, of course. But I wonder how Japan came to be so unique that such a thing can only happen there.

>>123185919
No, the writers who make all male protagonists losers are sexist.

>>123186964
>such a thing can only happen there
As counterpoint, I offer you:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2497834/?ref_=nv_sr_1

>>123186964
RWBY has a manga adaptation by a rather well known manga artist. Never give up.

>>123187080
Well I'll be damned. Still, pretty rare in comparison. The US seems to prefer live action for everything for some reason.

>>123186968
That too.

>>123184067

I realized that in the time that it would take me to learn japanese well enough to play all the BL titles I wanted, I could as well make my own.

>>123186341
Enough to get the game out I'll admit, but i could have had it done for less if i tried.

There's no such thing ass "too big" when it comes to breasts.

>>123189864
What about when they're bigger than the observable universe?