Did Diablo 2 inadvertently introduce skinner box mechanics / Pavlovian reflex into mainstream video games - with a plan to utilize it monetarily in the future - or was it just an inadvertent effect of Blizzard North trying to make a bigger, better Diablo 1?
Because the set up that D2 made is now the underpinning of ActiValve's massive profits. Did Blizzard purposefully experiment with digital economics? I don't think they foresaw third party website trading up to WoW.
>>345320613
Please bump it again in 5 minutes. I'd like this discussed.
Why do you think it was Diablo II? Didn't old RPGs and MMOs use it?
>>345320507
>>345320882
Yeah he's full of shit and trying to be "profound" by stating dumb shit that has no merit. Its reddit-syndrome at its terminal stage and there is nothing you can do for him.
>>345320882
Well, Diablo 1 used it to, I just think it came to forefront with D2. Especially through even more pronounced gambling elements such as Horadric cube, stuff that was purposefully put in there to create addiction. Nowadays that addiction is aimed at children using their parent's credit cards.
they learned nothing from D2, even D3 has barely anything to do with the design of that game
>>345321052
Don't remember how you can gamble with Horadric Cube, but there were literal Gambler NPCs.
>>345320507
Can you explain how your point is a point instead of a bunch of made up observations? I just don't understand how you're reaching these conclusions
Gambling in D2 was just a gold sink since the stuff was basically useless, It was completely ignored by most players and didn't influence the prices of items in multiplayer.
>>345321468
>made up observations
Diablo 2 is designed around skinner box mechanics and Pavlovian reflex. What do you think "Baal runs" are?
>>345321319
I think he means crafting, something that was added years later into D2.
Before that you could gamble items from a vendor in each town with a chance it'd be a magic or rare, or in some versions a unique.
>>345320507
Inadvertently I think. You ask a developer to design a huge set of dungeons and items. The developer takes the easy route and generates bunch of random dungeons and items. Then realizes, hey, why not put this generator built into the game and have it generate content real time while the player is playing.
>>345320507
You age giving them too much credit if you think it was intentional. They learned from it of course. Playing Diablo 3 feels like playing a slot machine, with all the shining effects and sounds. Colors flash es on the screen, you hear a distinctive sound when the legendary drops.
>>345323941
And with all the numbers popping up it looks like an accounting simulator.
>>345324171
In a slot machine hall the machine announces for everyone around that you won by displaying lights and loudly dropping coins into the metal sink. Diablo 3 has similar thing going on how it announces everyone on your guild of the legendary you just got. You get the feeling, that lucky bastard. I don't go to gambling halls but expect the players feel the exactly same thing when the guy next to them wins.
>>345320507
>skinner box
please stop using this term. literally every game is a skinner box.
>>345325279
Only if it has loot boxes and/or constant reward sounds / "achievements". Simple progression is not skinner box. Killing a Colossi in SotC is not a skinner box element. Having an achievement pop up and epic item drop after that would be.
>>345325630
not him, but you are wrong. A loot box or an achievement pop up is just the mode of feedback, narrative progression and many other forms of feedback (including those that SotC uses) can be seen as Skinner boxes. Perhaps you should read real psychology on this subject rather than watching idiotic videos of JBlow or other polemicists. This is why abstractions like the Skinner box should be kept away from retards like yourself, because without fail retards incorrectly use them to argue the value of the games they like and the against the ones they don't.
>>345327115
>Perhaps you should read real psychology on this subject rather than watching idiotic videos of JBlow or other polemicists
Perhaps you shouldn't talk in that manner if you wanted me to have a discussion with you.
>>345327115
Skinner boxes aren't subtle. They are very easy to spot in video games. Only spergs and histrionics try to equate every sort of progression with SB reward system. But have a (You).
who cares, they made only horrible fucking games since Frozen Throne
>>345327398
>>345327571
It is called respecting real science rather than carelessly applying abstraction that one does not understand (and likely does not care to understand outside of attempting to give authority to their own opinion). Blood splats, weapon sound effects, and death animations can all be considered a Skinner box given how loosely you are using the term.
If you want to be real discussion then you should realize that achievement pop ups are not Skinner box rewards and be willing to carefully consider how a loot system works with the rest of the game and the game economy. Also subtly has nothing to do if something is a Skinner box or not.
>>345328692
>respecting real science
Skinner box and pavlovian reflex are essentially outside of scope of social sciences because, unlike most of psychological themes, are based on empirical proof. Applying them to any sort of reward for overcoming interactive content paints you like an OCD sufferer. Achievements are designed as psychological triggers, same as XP points that got introduced as pop ups in "modern" FPS games.
>>345320507
Remember when they released that turd Diablo 3.
game was popular for a reason, duping and hoarding items to sell was a byproduct
>>345329252
I am not denying that Skinner boxes exist, I am saying you don't understand them and are incapable discussing these abstractions with any nuance. Everything in a game is design to psychologically trigger, there is nothing outside of psychological triggers in all of life. You either are not prepared or want a discussion on this subject, it seems to me that you want appear to be pseudo profound.
>>345320507
Diablo 2 gambling was just what they did with Wirt in Diablo 1.
>>345329813
You could argue that the gambling mechanics were the main reason for its prolonged popularity.
>>345329554
I'd say that Diablo 3's aesthetics, while being WoWified piece of shit didn't matter that much in the end, what was particularly horrible was the way the skills worked, because when you dropped more than one everything turned into yellow paste with numbers popping out. Compare it to Dota 2 where 10 characters can drop skills simultaneously and you can see exactly what's going on at any moment (because those skills actually matter most of the time).
>>345330029
>Everything in a game is design to psychologically trigger, there is nothing outside of psychological triggers in all of life.
I hope you understand that this is a relativistic fallacy of the most extreme sort.
>>345330101
I am merely applying relativism because of how shitty your generalizations are.
>>345330202
I am giving you explicit examples about loot drops, horadric cubes, xp popups and achievement design post-encounter. Not to mention the use of sound, say for creep last hits in Dota.
>>345330401
You seem to have issues with comprehension, is English not your first language? My issue is with your understanding of Psychology, your generalizations of Skinner boxes and of psychological triggers, and inability to understand mechanics in context. You are taking examples and shoving them into your generalizations with little care or understanding.
>>345331196
You seem to be constantly making ad hominem fallacies.
>>345321993
you'll have to define skinner box mechanics and pavloavian reflexrss for me
>>345331309
I don't think you know what an ad hominem fallacy is. Your ability to comprehend simple English and the depth of your understanding of Psychological is not irrelevant to this discussion.
>>345331460
no i won't they're well known psychological concepts.
>>345333241
what kind of pretentious asshole would know psychological concepts
>>345334228
Bump again
>>345325279
Life is a Skinner box.
