How do you make a turn-based RPG hard?
lvl 50 monsters when your party is lvl 10
lots and lots of grind
>>344843109
How do you beat them then?
RNG
Game can't be beaten by mashing attack
>>344842954
I found that Final Fantasy 13 was a hard RPG to play.
Couldn't even get past the first hallway before I threw that game in the trash.
>>344843353
grind
Pic related is an example of a good hard RPG.
>>344843353
Buffs and debuffs.
>>344842954
Like FF IX did, put over leveled bosses in every area so to make you game over force you grind xp and items.
>>344842954
grinding isn't hard, it's tedious
you make a turn based RPG hard by introducing mechanics which force the player to utilize strategy/tactics to succeed, and punish the player for not using strategy/tactics. you can do this at level 1 or level 100 and not doing it is called bad game design.
>>344842954
make it so that enemies don't respawn when they die, so if you spec your character incorrectly or buy the wrong shit, you're fucked
if that's too hard: allow you to respec at any time, enemies drop scaling mid-tier gear so you're never completely fucked
>>344842954
item/effect denial and immunities and shit during fight
>>344843570
I never grinded in IX, what are you talking about. That game is piss easy if you learn useful abilities for the characters
>>344842954
Permadeath.
>>344842954
Ask Sir Tech
Read up on the Wizardry series. Western devs perfected the art of hard turn-based RPGs (and inventing turn-based RPGs) back in 1981 by looking for ways to constantly fuck over the player every keystroke.
/r/'ing the Wizardry pasta
>>344845605
>/r/'ing the Wizardry pasta
yeah, I want this too. Haven't seen it in a while.
>>344843512
>just grund your way up senpai xd
>>344842954
Give all enemies instant kill attacks that always hit and give them a lot of speed.
I don't know this Wizardry pasta, but I want it.
>>344842954
Random encounters that force dwindling resources. The challenge is making through the dungeon without running out of what keeps you alive.
The death of random encounters was the death of the genre.
>>344847216
I don't see how encounters being random are the only way to force dwindling resources.
>>344843640
This. You have to make the player think about what they're doing.
Higher level enemies just means more grinding, it's not actually harder, it's bigger numbers.
Also, having a bullshit RNG just makes the game "wait for the RNG to let you continue."
gimmick battles like jecht and seymour in x
>>344843640
This
Even simple shit like a bosses with patterns that will kick your shit in if you're not careful in how you deal with them, like Dullahan in Golden Sun
>>344842954
Mgq is a good example of making them harder
>>344847458
Because you can't avoid them, thus you are forced to take damage and use resources. If you can just not fight you're playing the game by your own rules and there is never any danger of you being put in a bad position.
Play XCOM UFO.
It's all about playing intelligently, and the game telling you why you failed.
Make enemies strong enough to wipe your party out in a few turns instead of '10 chip dmg which is negated by a spammable 250 hp heal', but also make them vulnerable enough to defeat quickly if you know what you're doing (exploiting weaknesses, good use of buffs/actually useful debuffs etc) so it's not just garbage artificial difficulty.
Or just go the cheap way and make combat involve shitty RNG.
>>344846984
>>344845720
I prefer the 4chan screencap, but this took long enough since googling "4chan wizardry" brings up a lot of unrelated things.
>ENTERING THE CHAMBERS OF * W * E * R * D * N * A *
>OFFICE HOURS 9 TO 3 PM
>VISITS BY APPOINTMENT ONLY
>THE WIZARD IS * IN *
make it impossible to grind past obstacles.
Mind you, I don't approve of how obtuse and wiki-heavy TLR/Saga games are, but they have the right idea about grinding.
>>344842954
By using Wizardry IV's design
>>344847768
The way EarthBound did it seemed to work just fine.
And you could have forced encounters.
>>344842954
Go play Romancing SaGa 2 and find out.
>>344847832
This doesn't sound fun to play at all.
Make it impossible or at least very dangerous to grind forever (or perhaps grind at all) and force the player to use all the tools and abilities available to him. Like in DCSS (a roguelike, I know, but still) if you spend too much time on a dungeon floor the chance of the game spawning really dangerous enemies starts to increase. The game also has lots of hazards which can't be beaten with just a high level character, you need to have buffs/resistances and such too to survive.
>>344847832
>non-euclidean maps
>>344843640
Note taken.
>>344843640
Do you know a game that does this effectively, where you have to really think every battle?
I'm a lot more interested in that than an RPG that's just playing the numbers game.
>>344842954
Limited progression so you can't grind
See FFXIII
>>344847624
I'm playing Bravely Second right now, and I'm really impressed by the bosses. Each one has some special mechanic you need to watch out for. You can also tweak your party to perfectly counter them if you understand the battle system really well.
First boss: Does three attacks in a row then sits idle for 3 turns. Defend when he is able to act.
Midgame Boss: Attacks one party member each turn for huge damage. You can either dispel his buffs or make everyone on your team the base class which cannot die if they have more than 1 hp, and can do a weak AoE heal each turn.
Midgame Boss: Boss himself is weak but has strong bodyguards that respawn if killed. Bodyguards are extremely weak to Charm. Also one character in the party is debuffed so they can't use weapons or items.
Bonus Boss: Huge health pool. Spawns 3 minions that take some of his health, buff themselves, then go back into the boss who gets the buffs. Do AoE damage and status effects and the boss will get triple the effect.
Bonus Boss: Has an 85% chance to dodge any attack, attacks everyone in the party each turn. Hitting him once makes him fall over, lose dodge, and take double damage for a turn. Raise accuracy and put Wall spells on everyone for as many attacks as possible.
Avoid patterns.
The problem with many turn based games like SMT is that it is very easy to find the "ideal solution" that works for a good chunk of the encounters.
Every encounter should be as unique as possible. What worked last time shouldn't work this time. There should never be a point in the game where you are playing on autopilot.
>>344842954
enemy AI cheats, ally AI are worse than retards that open their resources like arses for enemy to plunder.
And oh, the instant you wage war on an ally, it turns into the most merciless cunt that deals low blow thru your least defended places.You know what game i'm talking about
>>344847860
>>344848343
There are traps in deliberately avoiding patterns too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIjVvnO5lgM
>>344848279
A decent number of bosses in the Dragon Quest series. Off the top of my head, Dhoulmagus, Rhapthorne, Ruin, Empyrea, Captain Crow, and the Dragovian Lord in DQ8 are all good examples.
Golden Sun, especially optional bosses.
Final Fantasy 5 actually has some boss fights I really like, the job system is really abusable but there's still some good shit in there gameplay wise.
>>344848343
What if there's a pattern, but the boss always starts at a random point in the pattern? Dullahan in Golden Sun does that and he's a fucking cunt. His pattern has like 13 steps to it and he acts three times a turn.
Pic related.
Combat is not particularly hard or fun but your build grants you a lot of out-of-combat abilities.
Mages can use magick in a lot of useful ways, summon the spirit of a corpse to have a chat with the dead and know who killed him, open doors and chests, see alignment and figure out who is most likely lying to you out of two people arguing against each other etc etc.
JRPGs need no apply.
It really depends on how much customization and what tools you give the player access to. If you give them enough choices then they'll probably be able to find a way to cheese their way out of anything, and while that might not be "difficult" it certainly has its own appeal. Just look at Final Fantasy Tactics or Xenoblade, you can pull off some fucking bullshit in those games and it's great.
>>344848457
TLR is still one of the easier SaGa games.
>just don't let the player grind
What a shitty non-answer.
>>344848736
I still need to do a mage run. I had way too much fun being a Molotov-chucking fedoralord.
>>344848490
I mean that's more bad game design in that having a move that gives you extra turns in a game where there are already tons of ways to get extra turns is silly.
>>344848994
Mage is so much fucking fun. It feels like you have a vast array of tools for dealing with most situations and picking the best one is so much fun. Seeing random NPCs alignment in cities is a nice touch, like you see some homeless dude with a +15 alignment or an Orc thug with -100
>>344848839
>tfw Vita SaGa will never come out
>>344848335
>the base class which cannot die if they have more than 1 hp
wait what, really? was that in default or is that new
>>344847959
>And you could have forced encounters.
Ones that you can prepare for, taking all the difficulty out of it? Remember OP's question was how to make the games hard. Gambling your life every step of the way instead of having certainties ('I can do this' vs. 'nope I won't succeed I'll have to come back later') is what gives older games their challenge.
>>344842954
>How do you make a turn-based RPG hard?
By implementing a level cap and increasing it gradually as the story progresses. This ensures that the player does not overlevel via grinding, but still allows the player to grind for optimal, if they want.
By preventing saving during combat.
By focusing on good encounter design with enemies that have different abilities and actually use them, instead of just auto-attacking forever.
By not giving enemies overpowered abilities or stats ala BG2 Tactics, so that the game does not devolve to a game of rock-paper-scissors or RNG.
>>344852072
>grind for optimal gear
Dragon Quest on the whole does a pretty good job at making encounters more than contests of brute force. Often the party will encounter groups of enemies which could cause tons of damage if not dealt with quickly. The Snooze and Dazzle spells do a great job of reducing the effectiveness of the enemy offense, giving your party enough time to chip away at the monsters. There are also instances where using Buff / Debuff spells like Kabuff and Sap will turn the odds in the party's favor, even when the enemy has a Disruptive Wave which cancels out all the party's buffs or if Sap rarely manages to work on them. Casters in Dragon Quest prove to be valuable in this way, even if their offensive magic leaves a lot to be desired.
>>344842954
add positioning
>>344852072
I hated both of BG2's difficulty mods because both of them were pretty much abuse casters or lose.
I recently started playing South Park Stick of Truth and I noticed it isn't too difficult. But holy fuck do I love it, only game in years that I can actually stick to.
Make the enemies FUCKING BULLSHIT
>>344848994
Playing mage is fucking ridiculous in a good way. The incredibly varied spells allow for interesting combat.
>>344847797
>Play first mission, lose 2 cannon fod-I mean rookies
>Get a couple promotions
>Use new recruits to check for aliens with their faces
>Rinse and repeat
I like XCOM as much as the next guy but yu are bound to lose a lot of rookies.
>>344843512
It's not hard.
