Why does everyone love Morrowind's dialogue? It has an appealing density to it, like reading a Wikipedia article, but they just don't talk like real people. I actually find it very immersion breaking. It seems like you could get rid of most of the NPCs and it would have no effect. At least in Oblivion and Skyrim, when you talk to an NPC they will have a few lines of unique dialogue
>>344637487
Because imagination
>>344637487
There are people who actually like Morrowind dialogue?
>>344637487
Click Ebonheart again.Click Ebonheart again, I dare you, I double dare you motherfucker, click Ebonheart one more Goddamn time!
>>344638562
People who hate Morrowind's dialog obviously haven't played Daggerfall.
>>344637487
Not a fan of Morrowind's dialogue either.
It does make sense for savants and nobles to have more wikipedia article dialogue, but some lowly farmer should tell you to piss off if you talk to him, or just give you directions to the nearest inn.
>>344639321
>talk to khajiit
>"me is hubasi, me like moon sugar"
>ask about balmora
>"balmora is the representative seat of house hlaallu and an important mercantile and political center sitting astride the odai river."
>>344639321
What's sad is that I genuinely prefer text dialogue to voice acting. If I were to design a game like Morrowind, I would give everyone their own unique dialogue and list of topics. Probably give the more "informational" wiki stuff to the city guards and guild stewards. But for the typical NPC citizen walking around, give them less dialogue that's more personalized. Bloodmoon and Tribunal actually did it a little better.
In Sadirth Mora if you go to the bottom of the council house you'll find a small room that serves as the temple, and the people there will tell you "Yep this is all we have, this is all house telvanni has given us, this tiny room down here". I was impressed by that because the characters were actually giving dialogue unique to their situation...Thats what most of the dialogue should be like.
>>344637487
>>344639802
I think the dialogue is fine. All you need to do is apply a little bit of imagination, as with the combat.
It's not supposed to be a direct representation of what the characters are saying. Think of it like the game giving you the information extracted from dialogue, not the dialogue itself.
>>344639802
>I was impressed by that because the characters were actually giving dialogue unique to their situation...Thats what most of the dialogue should be like.
Hey anon
Anon, listen
What if
Listen
What ifWe cut out all the unnecessary copypaste filler crap and kept only the unique dialogue relevant to the NPCs you are talking to? I imagine we might even be able to fully voice act it too...
>>344642290
But what if you wanted to ask around town for a topic? Local knowledge, directions? You can't just leave the player unable to discuss obvious or general things with most people simply because it's ''unnecessary copypaste filler crap.''
So what would you do? Restrict the topic to an arbitrary few? Give every npc variations on the information, varying degrees of informativeness?
Most NPCs just had rumour, secret and/or advice and maybe you could ask them about their trade. Well informed people like the woman in OP's pic were a rare delight.
The problem with the later games is just as you said they ONLY have a few lines of unique dialogue and you hear those lines over and over. At least in Skyrim they had more than a half dozen voice actors.
>>344642489
They could do it like Gothic. Have "generic" NPCs you can ask this stuff for canned replies, maybe with two or three variations.
Otherwise yes, have the other NPCs talk about only what is relevant to them. No more asking Divayth Fyr about what race is he only to have him patiently recite the "We are the Dunmer, yadda yadda" line. It's even more jarring than not having the option to ask him.
Basically, if you can't do it right, don't do it at all.
>>344639802
You know, I bet there's a mod there that does this. I mean sure, its not bethesda making the text but even they cant do it anymore since they either fired or lost most of their talent. So yeah, get a mod I guess OP. There's plenty of odds and ends to eclipse Skyrim in terms of lore, plot, and miscellaneous text.
I didn't have a problem with the text and so I don't know much about the text mods out there. It would be nice to have a mod that filters ubiquitous topics unless that's a mod also?
Its hard to fault Morrowind for its dialog limitations as the game itself was limited. You get a lot more for your trouble, like I said, than in other games.
im dyslexic, i dont read a lot of books and i can very easily get into morrowinds dialog system.
>>344642797
Voice acting is never an "at least", it soaks up budget to put that shit in so I'd rather they focus on meaningful things like a more dynamic world with deep mechanics and high skill ceiling character development.
>>344643171
Skyrim's gameplay wasn't simplified because of budget restraints. You can't just pour money into something and get complex roleplaying mechanics out either, just look how little money there is in anything /tg/.
>>344643482
I didn't say its a zero sum game and that you can trade things in or out. I am well aware they're incapable of making anything that could possibly appeal to an intelligent human. I'm just saying in a perfect world, that's where the focus should have been.
This sort of dialogue system would actually go pretty well with New Vegas-like reputation systems, alongside the already existing attitude bar. It would be especially interesting if having a higher reputation might lead to actual disadvantages - for example, if you were new to Balmora, the citizens may be more willing to help you out with general directions yet withhold some more explicit information. If you became more known around town, they'd be more generous with classified information but you might get a weird look if you asked how to get to the South Wall cornerclub, dropping the personal attitude by a few points. Too many weird questions would make you seem like some shady character and you'd have to prove your intentions again.This probably sounds more complicated than it should be
>>344643852
You could easily implement a conversation-node system like a game I only just recently played, Xenoblade Chronicles. Talking to two people who know each other can prompt extra dialog which makes finding and talking to people rewarding.
Very simple to code for as its just two boolean values compared (spitballing here) and you offer new topics.
>>344638297
>>344641376
Why does nobody pay attention to these posts? It's simple, but it's the answer. Sure, it'd be nice if all NPCs had unique dialogue, but it's a massive fuckload of work and what they did works quite well, imo.
>>344644726
Mods.
There are people out there that can actually write and that actually know Morrowind's/Tamriel's lore. And if the lore is wrong or if the writing is shit, you can let the author know and he/she/thon would actually listen and improve/change the shit, presumably.you shouldnt make a mod if you arent willing to take criticism
>>344645041
That new TR content is looking damn good.
Now I kinda want to turn the fame system into. A New Vegas Style system. Don't know how to mod OpenMW though.
Also the Multiplayer branch of OpenMW just got released
>>344637487
I don't think they like it as dialogue. They like it because it's full of TES lore that they love so much.
>>344642290
If you didn't need to voice act it, you could add even more non-filler dialogue.
>>344641376
That same logic could be used to defend pic related.
>>344642982
>Its hard to fault Morrowind for its dialog limitations as the game itself was limited. You get a lot more for your trouble, like I said, than in other games.
That's no excuse. Neverwinter Nights came out the same year and had a great dialogue system.
>>344647069
Not necessarily. Bethesda didn't use to keep dedicated writers, that was mainly a side task for for devs working on design/art/etc. It's not just the voice acting that's keeping them from writing more, but that they simply have other, more essential things to do.
>>344647993
But if they DID have dedicated writers, they'd have a lot more freedom without voice acting than with it. Not having them is a bad decision on their part, and it doesn't excuse the consequences that result from it. It's kind of like saying "Well of course the dungeons are bad! They didn't have level designers, just modelers who did dungeons on the side!"
I love Morrowind but the dialogue is not amazing. Sure beats voice acting, though.
>>344647993
Personally, I'd say writing is pretty essential for an RPG.
I know it's been said, but you're not supposed to take the dialogue as what is literally said by the characters.
As someone with a shit memory I really like being able to get that information when talking to an NPC.
Sure you could strip that stuff out of the dialogue system and have an encyclopedia type reference in game but I don't mind it this way.
Either way voice acting is cancer and severely limits both quality and quantity of dialogue in games.
>>344645041
>And if the lore is wrong or if the writing is shit, you can let the author know and he/she/thon would actually listen and improve/change the shit, presumably.
>you shouldnt make a mod if you arent willing to take criticism
Tell that to Arthmoor, who went on a vengeance crusade because someone made a patch that removed lore-breaking Oblivion gates from his Open Cities mod for Skyrim.
>>344649081
>voice acting is cancer and severely limits both quality and quantity of dialogue in games
Gothic without voice acting would be a much worse game.
>it's a companions rush into traps episode
>>344649081
Imagine Soul Reaver with even more dialogue but no voice acting.
>>344650079
Does that really work when it happens all the time? It's like looking at Star Trek and saying "It's a 'use technobabble to solve a problem' episode."
https://youtu.be/QuNrsk1rxeg
>>344651387
Not him, but Soul Reaver isn't an RPG where the player expects to make choices. It's completely linear and the player has no control over what Raziel says. So voice acting is fine for that game. It's more of a hindrance in RPGs, where people like to have a lot of options.
>>344651573
In that case Morrowind is hardly a good example either, since it almost completely lacks dialogue choices or even branch points in general. You are basically a silent protagonist following a more or less linear story path, your only choice being whether you want to do some specific content or skip it.
>>344651968
I agree. I wasn't defending Morrowind at all.
It's better than Oblivion's dialogue.
>Imperial City
>Rumors
That's it.
>>344652186
>It's better than Oblivion's
So is -nearly- everything else in the game.
>>344639024
What the fuck are you on about. Daggerfall had the best dialogue system in the franchise.
>>344652186
At least Oblivion NPCs would respond to those with something a person might say. You don't click "Imperial City" and hear "The Imperial City is the pride of CYRODIIL. It has several DISTRICTS arranged in a circular configuration, with the IMPERIAL PALACE at the center. Many different RACES live here. There are also SHOPS and an ARENA."
This is what happens when you add voice acting to a game.
>>344652535
I still don't get this shit
The well developed and written characters of Morrowind e.g. Neloth, Fyr, Yagrum, Dagoth Ur, Caius etc. are better than anything in Oblivion and Skyrim but Skyrim by far has the highest average quality in terms of NPC dialogue and development.
>>344652535
That's not the result of voice acting, that's just Bethesda trying to salvage a skill they can't really find any use for. It was a noble if unsuccessful attempt.
>>344652458
A person might also not consist of polygons.
Think that's retarded? So is your complaint. See >>344649081
The dialogue, for the most part, is not a direct representation of what the characters are saying. It's just the information within. Sure, it's a somewhat lazy solution, but it works. Perfectly well, in my opinion.
>played skyrim
>enjoyed it
>never played oblivion
>play it
oh god
this shit is awful as fuck man i know its an aolder game but holy fuck
>>344652640
I always thought this shit was easy
Try to click coerce and boast when the pieces were smaller, admire and joke when the pieces were larger
It's like a puzzle
>>344652673
Skyrim's Neloth is actually significantly better than the original though.
>>344652535
How is that relevant to having voiced NPCs and more logical dialogue depending on the person? Everyone hated the disposition changing minigame in Oblivion.
>>344652673
This a million times. The quality of Skyrim's voice acting is pretty good too. It's far less hit and miss than Oblivion (I went back and played it again recently). Though it's a shame some of the main characters like Delphine were so annoying.
>T-the dialogue is fine, just use your imagination
Bunch of shit eaters, trail to the sky have every goddamn npc in the world change dialogue after anything happens, causing even the random corner npc to be likeable because he eventually builds its own lore and reason to be there.
>>344652861
I guess it's because he got more screen time since he was one of the main characters of Dragonborn.
With all the "imagination" I'm apparently supposed to use in order to enjoy Morrowind, I might as well just daydream a fantasy world or make my own game.
>>344653089
But you can't, because you don't have an imagination.
>>344653089
I had this exact epiphany a few years ago.
They I went and printed a poster-size version of the TR map, calculated distances based on Daggerfall and Arena, put together a fairly freeform pnp ruleset, and never ever looked back.
>>344653089
Honestly this is what I felt when playing it.
The gameplay aged like milk so the story and lore is the only thing worth playing it for... You really may as well just read a book instead.
>>344652401
I kinda liked it too.
>>344637487
A large chunk of the writing might be dull, but the system was great.
>that UI
>clicking highlighted words in the sentences
>not designed for a console controller
>>344652986
look anon, TiTS is one of my favourite RPGs ever, and i've played many, but comparing it to morrowind is a wasted effort at best. both are two extremely different kinds of games; the similarities end at "they're both RPGs".
i'm not trying to defend morrowind's dialogue system, i think it's not that great either. if i had to suggest ways to improve it in a simple but noticeable way, it's to split each NPC into various groups of intelligence and wisdom, and change their dialogue to match. a random beggar shouldn't know as well as a learned scholar. it's not really even a matter of how /much/ someone knows, rather how /well/ they know the topic.
>>344653016
I'd say that's infinitely better than coming up with a character like Fyr and then doing fuck all with him. Guy has dangerously little dialogue or relevance to anything.
Meanwhile Neloth accompanied me to a dungeon crawl, cracked jokes about Herma-Mora, and casted a spell on me that had tentacles grow out of my eyes.
>a few lines of unique dialoge
Which is all they fuckjnf say, which is equally immersion breaking. Why the fuck do I have to ask Skyrim NPC's preset questions? Why can't I ask anyone about the town they live in even?
>>344652186
But is that really worse? If you asked an NPC about a city, they would tell you their unique feelings about the city, something related to them or personal to them, fleshing out the city a bit more. It was more immersive.
Why WOULD some random person walking around town have a lot to say, anyway?
>>344655824
I would like a combination of Morrowind and Skyrim when it comes to dialogue.
-text, not voice acting
-you can ask everyone about the city, little advice, latest rumors, and lore
>everyone has unique responses to these questions based on who they are
>you can also ask them more specific questions if the character has something else worth asking about
So basically, pre-set questions anyone can answer, but also special questions that differ.
>>344656406
>Why WOULD some random person walking around town have a lot to say, anyway?
Because you are new in the town and before the internet people werent as autistic and anti-social as today. Talking with a stranger would be probably the most interesting thing they had done during their normal day.
>all these posts in
>nobody mentions lgnpc
It's literally the fix to your problem
>>344657452
where's a mod like this for skyrim?
>>344657857
3dnpc
>>344657452
Strange how "mods can fix it" apparently isn't an excuse for Skyrim, but it's fine for Morrowind.
>>344658121
It also adds a lot of good quests, including one where I think you fuck Mephala in the form of a Dunmer prostitute.
>>344659715
Because everyone wants voice acting in Skyrim.
>>344660221
I don't. I mean, I appreciate it if it's there and it works well, but I'd gladly play a good quest mod without it if it means I get a good story and dialogue.
>>344637487
>It has an appealing density to it, like reading a Wikipedia article
this is why, it's for learned patricians. all you babbies get back to oblivion and its 5 word max sentences
>>344637487
One thing I never got about Bethesda games is why they have several different actors record the exact same line. Outside of common phrases, how often do you hear two different people word things the exact same way? How many NCR soldiers would say the exact phrase "Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter"? (I know Obsidian made FNV, but still).
Generic NPCs will inevitably share some dialogue, but by recording both male and female versions of this line they unnecessarily increased it. Why didn't they just have the female soldiers say something else?
They also write dialogue for generic NPCs that sound like they should be for specific characters only, e.g. arrow to the knee.
The only way this level of repetition makes sense is if these phrases became memes/in-jokes amongst the soldiers/guards.
>>344662064
>became a meme/in joke
And then if you join said faction you can ask about it and it gets explained to you
>>344659840
>>344658121
I hate NPC in that mod
There is one female altmer in one village, that one with graveyard near dark brotherhood hideout, she spews some shit like she is going to kill stormcloacks (Ulfric did nothing wrong) and she believes in survival of the strongest shit. Of course, I wanted to kill her, after all I AM stronger than she is.
But of course she is essential
Awful mod, that one NPC made me drop it, just because bethesda did that, doesnt mean modders had to do it again
Not to mention majority of the voices suck ass, but that is to be expected
>>344662982
It can definitely be very hit or miss, but I think it's a good mod overall. The quests are much better than anything in the vanilla game or in most mods. I haven't seen any other quest mods that even try to tell good character-driven stories.
>>344642290
>fully voice act it
NO FUCK YOU GET THE FUCK OUT
>>344637487
>finish the main quest
>almost every single NPC starts giving an identical speech thanking you when you talk to them
>generally replaces the only unique dialogue a lot of NPCs have which is usually them introducing themselves or telling you what their job is
I know it's a quick fix with a mod but holy fuck what a blunder
>>344655021
Morrowind has the best RPG UI ever implemented. I've never seen or played an RPG game with nicer UI than Morrowind.
