So in JonTron's 'Worst Bosses' video, this guy was on the list, with the reasoning being that it was trial and error in a game that is mostly just genuinely difficult platforming. Now I think he exaggerated a little (after the first few attacks you get the just of how to fight him, but he will probs get a cheap kill or two if you do a blind run), but he has a point about trial and error being a shitty part in any videogame. What videogames are the worst offenders in tihs regard?
>>344582321
The point and click genre, while I still love it, is almost entirely trial and error, with a lot of games having big leaps of moon logic. As for the worst offender, probably Discworld. Fantastic game, impossible to beat without a guide.
>>344582321
That boss is a piece of shit.
>>344582551
Would you include Fallout 1 and 2 in that? I mean, a lot of RPGs could fall under that if a boss is annoying enough or if a dialogue option starts up a shitstorm (assuming it is one that you wouldn't expect to start up a shitstorm).
>>344582321
>So in JonTron's
Jontron is a faggot.
>>344582756
>>344582776
Nice meme friendo :^)
genuine trial and error is extremely rare, but when it happens I think it's usually excusable because if it truly is, it won't be that punishing and won't ruin your game, otherwise it's just people not looking properly for contextual clues, the most common example being dark souls.
>>344582721
I felt the Fallout games were well written enough as to know when an option would start a fight or not, and even then, the point of those games was to roleplay, and the fun of roleplay was to see what would happen with the options you chose.
>>344582321
>e-celeb shit
>>344582940
Agreed, just knew that they were technically point and click.
SMT games can sometimes be a bit trial and error based in some fights. Early on when you don't have a lot of skills or good demons bosses can often times completely destroy you within a single turn. So for some fights you have to go in, find their weakness, figure out what attacks they use, then try again.
A good example is the infamous Matador from Nocturne. He's one of the first bosses where you really need to buff, debuff, and work with the weakness system. You can easily walk into the battle with demons that have weaknesses to wind, and element he uses, or lacking buffs/debuffs that deal with his evasion shit. Similarly, in SMTIV the Minotaur can be a pain in the ass since he can hit one of your weaknesses, smirk, then completely wipe out your party in a single turn. So unless you came in knowing about the boss' weakness or what to protect yourself against it can be difficult to do it the first time.
>>344582921
Some parts of Dark Souls do fall under this though. There is nothing giving you a heads up to the skeletons at the beginning unless you talk to people about the game beforehand. You're also not going to know about this asshole until you either play it or get told about it.
>>344582847
But he is a faggot and a cuck.
Dark souls
>>344583441
Not as much as this site's founder.
>>344583525
What does that have to do with anything?
>>344582321
Trial and error shit is probably the entire reason I hate the point and click adventure genre. I've only played a couple of games where none of the puzzles were stupid and I could finish the game without dropping it.
A more specific example that I don't like is fog of war maps in Fire Emblem games. I don't think they're necessarily hard, I just think that in a game like that a lot of strategy comes from knowing the enemy locations and when you're denied that information you're forced to play more passively than normal.
If they had something like in the XCOM reboots where nearby moving enemies make a "sound" and give you a direction then it would be a bit more interesting.
>>344583283
lautrec isnt at all trial and error though
>>344583639
Idk, but he isn't really that bad tbqh senpai. I've seen more intense faggotry on most of this site or board then in his vids (ex. OMG TF2 IS KILL!).
>>344583283
Lautrec isn't anywhere near as bad as Yurt was, you only temporarily lose firelink, Yurt just ruined everything
>>344583864
Old Jontron is less of a faggot than new jon
>>344583525
hey man, back off of hirohito-san! don't make me beat you up!!
>>344583796
He at least fits into beginner's trap territory, which, while not quite as bad, still kinda bullshitty.
>>344583779
Fog is probably the worst part of fire emblem besides the asshole enemy getting a crit at just the wrong moment. However, I think it is really just trying to give the player pressure to not overextend and use some classes that get around fog (I know thieves/rogues are examples, forget if mages can do it). Will agree though, some of the big enemies coming from the fog or enemies that come out of nowhere in a large group are bullshit.
I dunno how that faggot played SMB but I practiced every level until I got every jump down perfectly
>>344584174
the thing about laurtrec is that any of the decision is viable from the beginning
if the first run is blank without any advice its possible to miss him in general, RP as a douche and kill him for loot, or let him out
letting him out is imo the lease obvious choice considering he's shady as fuck and in a jail cell
As much as I love this game, it's "trial and error" at its finest.
>>344584343
> RP as a douche
> letting him out is obv bad
I mean, clearly the best method to not getting fucked is killing him and you just said yourself that is the douche RP (I mean, that is what I do, but some people want to be the good guy).
>>344584527
Then what about it do you like? The fappable characters?
>>344584532
I'm saying as a beginner without advice
you dont actually know he's bad but the game sort of implies it in a weird way
I'm just saying that its hard to call it trial and error when all three of these methods are equally possible on a first runthrough
>>344584648
>trial & error automatically means bad
ebin
>>344582321
It's anything but trial and error, shit gets telegraphed like crazy.
>>344584662
I'm not sure about equal, but definitely gives you a big punishment for something that you can't possibly know beforehand, which is bullshit. Heck, trial and error is arguably less obnoxious because at least with mr skeletal in the graveyard you go back to the bonfire by crestfallen warrior (unless you find the one by the skeletons, in which case you're fucked).
>>344584920
The first few attacks aren't something you would necessarily be able to predict that well, but once you go through the first cycle, yeah, at that point it is telegraphed well enough that it isn't bad. Like I said, I think he exaggerated.
>>344583779
I fucking love point and click games but fuck I hate this shit. Half the time I just end up using a guide because I feel no sense of challenge or accomplishment once I think I've exhausted every option available to me.
It's like oh combine the sausage and the ginger ale to make a bubbly sausage and use that the lizard to launch the rocket. Nigger what
Hm?
Trial and error can be part of the game design legitimately, learning from your mistakes and all that.
I understand being pissed off when you're playing a game that isn't focused on it and you encounter some inane bullshit.
>>344585250
> It's like oh combine the sausage and the ginger ale to make a bubbly sausage and use that the lizard to launch the rocket. Nigger what
...what?
And yeah, point and click games have this issue, and also a 'where the fuck does this go?' 'what can i poke around in?' issue.
How could any boss ever not be trial & error? You gotta learn its attacks first
>>344585283
I feel like a game that is meant to be skill based should give you some sort of hint, even a small one, that you could use to not commit said error. That or have some sort of precedent before giving you something that would punish you greatly for committing said error (like say, a boss has a trap set up in his room, it shouldn't be the first trap of its kind in the game).
>>344585283
problem is more often than not the type of trial and error is that of a choice with a wrong answer and no hints towards what the wrong answer is
like say 3 doors, each identical, one of them leads to the exit the other 2 kill you. That's bad game design under any and all circumstances, there's no justification for it
>>344585563
The difference is with other bosses in the game, or in a game like Zelda, usually you don't have to actually die before getting the first parts of the pattern down. Like this guy might have a pattern you need to get, but he doesn't get a giant area attack that kills you the first time if you are on some 60+% of the land.
>>344585914
That's just due to meat boy having 1 HP, the entire game relies on perfect jumps and positioning
>>344584662
>>344584932
What? NIgga I didn't get into the series until Dark Souls and it was super obvious Lautrec was going to pull some bullshit, and that's coming from a retard who fought the skeletons for about 30 minutes solid the first time I played. His sinister dialogue and that fucking laughter were enough to make me murder his ass my first playthrough. I also don't think the skeletons were that bad, considering you don't really have any souls to lose at that point, and you respawn about 8 feet away. I think it's meant to be a light slap on the wrists for new players who then know to try another route immediately, as well as a secondary path right off the bat for experienced players. Honestly the best use of trial and error I can think of, though I remember Limbo's being acceptable despite being rampant.
>>344585563
Some are so laughably easy you never learn the strategy. Take this nigga for instance, the only thing you do is mash E or M1 at him until he's dead.
>>344583441
>If I call somone a faggot and a cuck without proof I win
I don't think a bit of trail and error is inherently bad, that's how you learn, but it's annoying the case of that boss since you get one shot every time.
>>344586198
Eh... I wouldn't call it that obvious. And it would maybe be a bit less bad if the game didn't also make all of your mistakes like that permanent because of its autosave. I just can't think of another game where people seem so excited to tell you to avoid something like it's some kind of 'you're going into a trap a lot in this game!' kind of dealie.
>>344582321
I wanna be the guy
For reals tho, LIMBO
Defs Dark Souls
>>344588296
>>344583475
Agreed.
Some of the best-handled trial and error I've ever played was in Wario Land 2 and 3, simply because of how those games are designed. Instead of dying you just have to start over whatever section or boss you lost to, it's essentially the same thing but a million times less annoying because you don't have to sit through a level restart.
>>344588296
>>344588386
Yeah, no idea why it's so popular.
>>344588932
I suppose it isn't that bad if you aren't punished much for it.
>>344588978
Where the fuck am I?
>>344589035
Trial and error where you still have another chance is always a lot better than where you just have to start over because fuck you.
>>344584532
>>344584343
>>344584174
>>344583283
What about Lautrec is trial and error? You either keep him in there and nothing happens, or you let him out and briefly lose a bonfire right before getting a new bonfire a couple seconds away. You really don't suffer at all for the choice you make. As far as RP is concerned, being the good guy or bad guy has both been punished in several games. You can't really make an argument that making the "good" choice never led to hardship down the path.
>>344589506
>He will kill Anastacia even if he hasn't moved to Firelink Shrine. This will not happen if you kill him first, of course.
Still a trap and total bullshit.
>>344589128
You are on /v/.
>>344589917
>trap
>total bullshit
Why? Who cares if he kills the dumb slut? The player does not suffer at all.
>>344584527
Man, I bought this game when it came out and hated it. It had some weird frame rate problems or something and would sometimes freeze very briefly. In any other game it wouldn't be gamebreaking but since this is a hard and punishing platformer it meant you would just barely miss a jump or mistime something and get killed. I know the game got fixed some time later, but I was so frustrated I never picked it up again.
>>344585250
I hate point and click games where you're missing something and the reason you haven't found it is because the hitbox or whatever is so fucking tiny. Like, you want to check under the couch but clicking there did nothing so you think it's not an option. It is, but you need to click in a specific area.
Wasn't there some old point and click game that had this problem? You had to pick up a needle on the floor, which had a tiny hitbox and was barely visible anyway. It was the one with designs by H.R Geiger, I think. Plus you had to be fucking psychic and make an emergency escape route for your house at the very start of the game, before anything even happens to you
>>344589142
*cough* Dark Souls
>>344587150
the whole game is about your consequences
you have these two options
let laurtrec die
or let him live
on one hand this ass is sketch as fuck
on the other hand he might have been thrown in there by some other asshole and is just butt hurt about it
both sides are pretty equal
>>344591810
So you get punished for what you say is 50/50 chance? Seems fair.
>>344592432
>Seems fair
Well 50/50 gives you both equal opportunity so yeah.
>>344582321
Hotline Miami is by far the biggest offender I know.
>gameplay is literally built around trial and error
>full of things you can't watch out for that will catch you the first time around such as offscreen enemies who flood the area with high speed instakill bullets
>vague hitboxes and RNG
