I notice a common complaint with turn based games is that you have very little control over success and rely on random dice rolls but I think the problem is that many modern turn based games give you less control than older ones. In the original X-COM you can take snap shots, aimed shots, and auto shots and shoot anywhere you want. In modern XCOM, you only have one firing mode, can't aim where you want unless you use explosives, have only two moves and shooting takes up both moves, and you can't even manually set your soldiers to crouch out in the open. In JA2 you can mitigate the random chance of missing with all the tactical options you have while newer games feel more like dice roll fests. What do you think, /v/?
Turn-based are a shit relic of the past and should fuck off already. There's absolutely nothing a turn-based game does that real-time couldn't
>>344035292
I think Expeditions: Conquistador and Hard West did turn-based almost-no-RNG combat really well.
In Conquistador all melee hits have 100% chance to hit period so the game becomes more about positioning and class abilities.
In Hard West most weapons have decent accuracy and there are flanking mechanics. Also the combat is extremely lethal, two shots are enough to kill most enemies and player characters so cover becomes vital for survival.
>>344035876
Is it true that all enemies scale with you in Expeditions?
>>344035451
First post shit post, as always.
>>344035292
I love how you can spend more AP for a better chance to hit in JA2
>>344035451
Yeah, chess should just be two people frantically moving pieces around the board at the same time.
>>344037994
You know, I can't remember. I think they might, actually.
That's not a common complaint because most people aren't stupid enough to confuse being turn based with being RNG heavy.
And being determinist verses using an RNG has nothing to do with how casual modern games are.
>>344035292
>What do you think, /v/?
I think that dev are retarded. Take Wasteland 2, for instance. All they had to do is copy-paste JA2 combat (maybe with things from 1.13), and instead, gave us half-baked combat with no prone stance, shit aiming system, shit cover system, no real exploitation of verticality, no tactical option such as smoke, fire or post-apo flashbang-like grenade.
In overall, Turn-based devs don't copy JA2 enough. I know ""tedious"" bordeline clunky shit like the JA2 craft system aren't exactly what people want today, but come on, combat system is on point. Removing tactical option in a Turn-based system (which promote tactical depth) is ridiculous.
>>344038748
I liked how you could combine magazines in JA2. I wish Silent Storm turns moved faster.
>>344035451
>Turn-based are a shit relic of the past and should fuck off already. There's absolutely nothing a turn-based game does that real-time couldn't
i would have called you a fagget a decade ago, but then 7.62 High Caliber came out and proved once and for all that anything Turn based can do, RTwP can do miles better. 7.62 HC shits on any and all TB tactical games, including JA2 1.13.
However, really good RTwP systems like the ony used in 7.62 are very complicated and the game can become quite tedious if you have a large team to manage. TB systems can be used to make fast paced, squad-based tactical games that are much easier and less tedious to play, compared to a good RTwP squad-based tactical game. That's where the TB system shines and that's its niche.
The fact is that when RNG is a thing, people do their best to mitigate it, which isn't conducive to playing something casually.
So, devs remove the extra bits so that less time is spent planning and more time is spent doing, which naturally bothers people who enjoy the former. Of course, this can also frustrate the latter if there's not enough information, because more often than not players are in situations that would be better served with a more nuanced solution than a catch-all-type deal.
The solution, as always, is either mods or making your own game/supporting devs who make them for you, because the market otherwise is full of shit and people who enjoy (to varying degrees) eating shit.
That's just how it is, no positive or negative spins attached.
>>344035292
Most turn based games have nowhere as much RNG as XCOM to begin with either. JA2 feels the same at the start but quickly turns around once you get a few hours into the game and have better stats and weapons.
>>344038748
>no prone stance
Fuck, I was so angry that they couldn't do something as simple as this right.
>>344035451
That implies realtime games/RPGs are something new. I don't get this meme.
>>344039052
>there will never be another game with tactical depth on the level of High Calibre
>Western studios can't make anything even nearly as complicated while slavs are poorfags and don't have money for a sequel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg37XhwYlUI
>>344039225
Like OP nearly says though, the difference is between how much control you have over the outcome. A deterministic corridor doesn't and a pure random number generator are both effectively the same.
Even though shooting is done with an RNG in the original X-Com you have options about how risky you want your dice rolls to be verses managing a resource in the form of TUs. You can take cheap rolls that have a high failure rate or spend more to increase your odds (or save TUs for during the enemy's turn) .
Gollop's more recent game, Chaos Reborn, game does the same more directly. Everything's a dice roll but you can spend a resource to increase your odds of success (or bypass the RNG completely and hope the enemy doesn't notice).
>>344039052
>7.62 high caliber
fuck i was trying to remember the name of that game so I missed it in the sale and got silent storm instead
>>344039979
dungeon master is still simplified from wizardry or M&M to accommodate the realtime combat
>>344039052
problem with RE5 and 7.62 is player's awarness when controlling squad.
Your choices are either slowing down speed to snail slow and micro in it, play in reasonable speed and beign unable to react when it counts, or set game to pause every time something happes, which makes action even more cut than if game was actually turn-based.
>>344040658
>RE5
E5
>>344040658
Yes, that's what I was talking about. When you have a very complicated and tactically DEEP real time system, you literally have to micromanage every fucking millisecond for your entire squad if you want to milk the system for all it's worth and play to your best ability. It's great tactical gameplay, but it can get so fucking slow you can spend literally half a day playing one tough mission.
On the other hand, games like JA2 give you somewhat simplified, but fast paced and very addictive tactical gameplay that may be not as tactically DEEP, but it's fun as FUCK.
Both systems have their uses, so people shouldn't really discard turn based as a relic of the past.
>>344039052
>anything Turn based can do, RTwP can do miles better.
Blatantly not true. For a simple example, turnbased lets you mash your way through turns where nothing is happening extremely fats, and take as much time as you want when things are tense, allowing you to focus on the interesting parts of the game. RTwP can't do that remotely as well even with time accel/decel hotkeys and autopause, because shit is always going to happen that you wish you could have reacted to but the system screwed you over (either that, or you spend long times waiting and doing nothing).
Anybody who thinks turn based is somehow outdated is a fucking retard and knows nothing about game design or even game playing.
>>344035451
You're fucking retarded desu, imagine managing all the units in pic related in real-time. It just doesn't work.
>>344038354
what's fucking wrong with that you stupid fucking pussy cucky reddit cunt?
>>344039225
well like kinda makes sense
xcom rookies are volunteers that dont have that much combat experience they put you through more rng to exaggerate their "rookie-ness"
while ja2 has mercs who are implied to have combat experience
>>344041854
>xcom rookies are volunteers that dont have that much combat experience
That makes no fucking sense. high priority and high risk missions imply that only best of the best would get deployed each time to maximize the chances of success and I can't really think of anything of higher priority than a FUCKING ALIEN INVASION.
Deploying rookies as cannon fodder is justifiable only in the initial combat encounters when chances of success are next to zero and you just want to study your enemy via recon in force.
I like turn based combat like advance wars, fire emblem, shadowrun, dwarf fortresd or underrail.
It just can be frustrating to lose progress because of bad luck. You could have the best possible tactic but still lose due to a lucky crit/evade.
I like the idea of rare resources that could be used to re roll or up the chances for a specific action.
Those resources could be gained through completing missions well or rewarding exploration.
>there will never be a proper JA sequel with Silent Storm-esque destruction system
why even live
>>344035451
Do you happen to be a 90s kid who is also a consoletard?
>>344035292
Why are you playing shit games and complaining about why they are shit? That's what I think.
>>344038354
>anon claims turn-based is a relic of the past
>bring up chess
Well anon, funny story
>>344039052
RtWP is always a clusterfuck
>>344041029
this
you spend more time paused than playing in rtwp games
phase based like frozen synapse is more interesting
>>344041203
what game?
>>344045294
>>you spend more time paused than playing in rtwp games
>you are not playing when the game is paused
Huh... really made me think.
>>344039052
I think TB still has it's place, but 7.62 and Marauder were the best games I played in a lot of years
RTwP is really great and should be used more
Can't think of many games that have it besides RPGs
>>344046083
Yeah you are, you're thinking of the next move. Or taking a shit, whatever works man
>>344041203
Think of it this way: those battles didn't originally happen in turns. Someone had to manage those battles originally, and in real time; you're arguably giving yourself an undue advantage.
>>344038974
>I wish Silent Storm turns moved faster.
I was so fucking glad they added a turn speed option in Sentinels
>>344043406
>completely failing to understand the example
Well anon, funnier story
>>344047215
I gave playing regular S2 during a mission with dozens of friendly and enemy troops.
I dislike turn based games but not because of RNG, I dislike them because I like to be involved in what I'm doing.
If it's a game with soldiers, I want to be the dude shooting stuff. If it's with mecha like Front Mission I want to be driving the mech. Reducing combat to an abstraction isn't fun for me.
That said, this is more of an issue with strategy games than with turn based games. Just thinking, Worms is a turn based game yet that gives you full control over your actions and is a bunch of fun.
>>344035292
Valkyia Chronicles > Xcom
>>344046514
Damn...
