>If the central narrative is meaningfully interactive, I would classify it as an RPG. That is, I consider interactive storytelling to be the primary defining characteristic of RPGs.
>You would not consider old dungeon crawlers as RPGs, then? And do not many adventure games center around interactive storytelling?
>I would consider them RPGs by the definitions of their time. If someone were to make Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord today, I would not consider it to be an RPG.
Is Josh Sawyer right /v/? Is Wizardry not a real RPG? What about roguelikes?
RPG doesn't mean anything anymore.
>>343205558
>problem glasses
Opinion discarded.
He didn't say it's not a real RPG. He's saying the definition has shifted over time.
An old WWI tank was considered a tank, while now a tank is considered to be something more like an Abrams.
>>343205558
Well, the definition of RPG is fluctating. I'd agree with him. We really need a proper, hard defined definition of that word already.
>>343205786
And a WW1 tank is still a tank today. Your analogy is retarded unless your point is that Wizardry is still an RPG by modern standards.
>>343205786
A Renault FT is still considered a tank though. Your analogy is terrible.
Sawyer is a buffoon. You could easily say Pillars is not an RPG by making arbitrary comparisons to actual tabletop RPGs. Or Icewind Dale or Neverwinter.
>>343205638
The meaning never changed, the use just has become erroneous. If someone calls something an RPG it should be viewed sceptically, but that does not mean that there is no clear line between what is and isn´t an RPG.
>>343205786
I would agree in the sense that the first wizardry´s and the like were all there was in terms of what is most like actual roleplaying, even if they are basically mostly mechanical experiences by today´s standards.
>>343205558
If your definition excludes the games that birthed the genre, your definitions are fucking terrible.
>>343205558
>storyfags
>>343205558
CRPG != tabletop RPG
>>343205558
>meaningfully interactive
>4 endings and a dozen different slides
>meaningful
>>343207184
The hell do you describe as meaningful?
>>343207282
Actual in-game consequences that affect you, your party, NPCs, the world.
>>343205558
Video games have genres, from those genres come mechanics and concepts. RPGs are not some abstract concepts we can separate from the history of the media, whatever definition you cook up needs to adress the history of the genre in some way.
Sawyer's definition is just that: his personal reading on the medium. It's a belief. You can agree and disagree with it, but there is no truth to be had anywhere.
The better question would be: Does PoE have a meaningfully interactive narrative?
>>343207502
When was the last time that happned? Fallout 2?
>>343207807
AoD probably
>>343207807
Does it matter? Difficult or not, why should anyone listen to some hack faggot preach about 'meaningful' when his own works don't even meet the requirements. Might as well call Fallout 4 and Final Fantasy games meaningful.
>>343205558
>muh narrative
Fuck this guy. An RPG isn't just a story that you have control over. An RPG isn't just exploring and leveling up. It's a combination of the two that brings out the best in each other.
>>343207943
AoD sucks, the quest are literally auto-pilot.
>>343207740
>The better question would be: Does PoE have a meaningfully interactive narrative?
Well, as far C&C PoE has more stuff than some true classic like BG2 for example, but PoE problem is that the game is lacking in grip,
>>343205558
>PoE released
>doesn't stand for any of those points
Pls Sawyer fuck off
>>343207943
nice try Vince, all the major decisions/""""consequences"""" are right before you finish an area and shown in story slides.
He looks like the type of guy who exaggerates his mouth movements and his neck veins bulge out when he talks.
>>343205558
no, he is absolutely wrong.
narrative choices are the biggest meme in gaming. they rarely bring anything to the game. they are what the programmers think is writing, and the writers think is programming.
Visual Novels are my favorite RPGs.
>>343208929
nicely said, although I just love games that have choices in them, even though it's mostly just different ending cut scenes you get from them.
>>343205558
>mfw people think any game with character creation and customization is an RPG
No that means it is only a game with some nice customization
RPG basicly means "decision making" and the world you are thrown into changing because of how you play the game and what decisions you make
>>343208929
The best stories are the ones that come from gameplay experiences not exposition and dialogue options.
>>343208158
Doesn't really fucking matter. It's a consequence, and I find the ending of New Vegas very meaningful. Gives a feeling of resolution.
>>343205719
> >problem glasses
A what?
>>343207807
CoDBlOps2
>>343208954
Alpha Protocol is my favourite visual novel
>story fags
the central narrative of SimCity is meaningfully interactive. thats a dogshit definition.
>want to play BG1/2
>guy recommends I follow this http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-ultimate-baldurs-gate-experience/
>all the links are fucking dead
Choice and consequences are a meme and feel forced in most RPGs that feature them.
>>343210050
hi Todd,
jk, I agree with you, but most people on this board like the straight forward approach to narrative, with a "complex" story and some useless choices just to scratch their itch.
>>343210873
Just use big world setup
https://bitbucket.org/BigWorldSetup/bigworldsetup/overview
Every CRPG is lacking in depth compared to a proper pen and paper RPG.
>>343211327
I am. It also doesn't work because the sites it downloads from are dead.
>>343211226
Bethesda games have shit gameplay, shallow mechanics, and the environmental storytelling boils down to "lol skeletons in funny positions XD". Something like LGS games or tough encounters in dungeon crawlers is what I mean.
>>343205786
>tank
>not barrel
>>343211604
>Hello all. G3 and SHS are currently experiencing some server downtime. We're aware of the issue and it's being worked on.
Pretty much all IE games mods are hosted on those two sites.
the role in rpg is assignment of character's abilities
it's what makes one character have a different set of skills from different from another
>>343211845
It's been out for a week now, apparently, and they said it would only take a couple of days.
Where am I supposed to get my CRPG fix now?
>>343211648
I LOVE beth games the first 20 hours, then the curtain falls and you see the genericness all over the place. but morrowind in an exception to that still in my book.
the most recent game that had that feeling you're talking about was for me Dragons Dogma. Venturing out was fun and meaningful, I hoped that they would build upon that game, but the fuckers made an mmo instead.
>>343212363
Try the Might and Magic games or Gothic 1 and 2
>>343205558
In general I agree with him.
However, I think it would be more fitting to find characteristic names for the subgenres rather than to exclude games that at a certain point in history were without doubt regarded RPGs.
It is obvious that 'modern', or rather post Fallout style RPGs like the aforementioned, as well as Torment, Baldur's Gate 2, Bloodlines, etc. have a different focus in comparison with many older RPGs or roguelikes - or JRPGs for that matter.
>>343212516
Nothing he said was true or genre defining. Interactive storytelling is more in line with CYOA games or books than RPGs.
>>343211542
Every CRPG doesn't require you to sit in a room with fat, smelly, autistic neckbeards pretending to be Elves and Princesses, which makes them infinitely superior.
>>343206930
Only reason vidya RPGs focus more on number crunching is because there are only so many choices you can give a player in a static environment. Doesn't mean interactivity shouldn't be a central focus though. The numbers are there simply to represent how well your particular character will succeed in undertaking whatever choice you make
>>343212649
This isn't true though. The characteristic element which set D&D apart from the tabletop war games that came before was the focus on interactive storytelling and cooperative gameplay.
Books have no interactivity at all, they are a completely different medium. CYOA books are related but they're closer to VNs since the interactivity in them is usually fairly limited (i.e. few branches).
>>343208314
Not the guy you're talking to, but in terms of interactive storytelling and reactivity Age of Decadence is probably the most elaborate RPG ever made. If you know a more elaborate title, let me know.
>>343212698
RL roleplaying is the most awkward thing ever. I did it once with a craigslist older chick who I wanted to bang. Showed up to her apartment and some weird, autistic male "best friend" was there and they both suggested we play D&D. Had never done it before. We played from 9PM until 6AM. Then the best friend went into the spare bedroom after awkwardly expecting me to leave, then I fucked her. She had a kid who was locked in another room the whole time. Afterward, she told me about her fucked up background that included being sold to a drug dealer and pimped out when she was 13.
Fuck in person roleplay.
>>343213132
You didn't really say anything about how the game went, you just explained how the people you were playing with were shit
>the very definition of RPG tier
Games where you can create your own character, give them an origin and background, and that also contain non-combat ways to solve situations.
>JRPG tier
Set character with their own personality and motivations, heavy on combat and usually no way to talk your way out of things
>Action RPG tier
Barely any story, almost 100% combat
>RPG elements tier
Farcry, Infamous, Human Revolution
>Why would anyone call this an RPG tier
Zelda
>>343212462
mfw I'm actually arguing with some anon over G3 and Risen on another thread.
Grew up on MM-VII, fucking 3do cinematic still gives me the feels.
>>343213578
t. babby that started with black isle games
if it's just a pure dungeon crawler with no story it would probably be better to categorize it as a strategy game or something. you're not really role playing, you're making a squad with the skillsets necessary to achieve the objective of killing the beholder.
>>343213837
It's true that if you start with Black Isle games you've unfortunately ruined yourself for you've peaked and will never find rpgs that fill the void to the same extent.
>>343205558
Defining RPGs isn't that simple (since everyone has their own opinion now), but, honestly, I agree.
This thread would be more interesting on RPGcodex
>>343214579
yea, /v/ is getting boring. only stick around to shitpost these days
>>343205558
I don't think anyone who was associated with Pillars of Eternity should be considered an authority on what is and is not an RPG.
>>343206183
The use was also always vague and poorly define. People splitting hairs about what is or what isn't an RPG are usually just saying "IF THIS HAS THE ASPECTS OF AN RPG I PERSONALLY LIKE, THEN IT'S A TRUE RPG AND EVERYTHING ELSE ISN'T". There's no really a TRUE RPG on videogames simply because you cannot truly emulate a pen and paper RPG on consoles or PCs. So every "RPG" is in fact just a "*genre with RPG elements", and the argument is simply about which elements each side likes more.
I agree with him - one, about the definition of RPG shifting, and two, in saying that stuff like Diablo and dungeon crawlers aren't RPGs in that they don't really simulate what it's like to play tabletop (which is the point of an RPG, imo).
>>343205558
>sawyer
>>343215326
Well that explains Cass.
>>343215198
>dungeon crawlers aren't RPGs
Wizardry is a major stepping stone of the genre and it's not an RPG because you don't navigate prewritten dialogue trees?
I feel that games need to have meaningful changes that you can make to the story. I would argue that things like JRPGs are better called Narrative-Driven Character-Building games, because for the most part you don't do anything with the narrative beyond pushing a pre-set story along with pre-set characters. You can build the characters yourself so that they play differently, but ultimately you're still doing the same thing as someone else who plays.
An RPG proper has to let you decide who the characters are and what they do, in addition to how they do it. Games that have characters with stat-buillding or equipment selection are character-building games.
>>343215326
>oh hey he disagrees with me politically, this invalidates his opinions
Grow the fuck up.
>>343215326
Why are American liberals so concerned about the UK leaving the EU?
>>343216382
>that tweet about kooks
>anything political
are you okay?
>>343216382
>disagrees
>an american having a strong opinion about the UK and the future of the European Union
he has literally no business what happens there, just like I give 0 shits about american gun laws and don't go around on twitter saying they should be banned.
>>343205558
so by that token, doesn't Shadow the Hedgehog qualify as an RPG? The narrative changes entirely depending on who and how many of them you kill, right?
>>343216485
It hurts American interests. Plus, colonizing planets and getting off earth is way more likely the more unified we are than fragmented due to retarded cultures that, in a lot of places, haven't even existed for much more than a thousand years.
>>343216485
>>343216601
You guys should say that when /pol/ joins in on a thread. Fuckton of Americans are hardcore triggered by UK either remaining or not.
>>343216485
The UK's a pretty big giant but their economy's currently tanking. Regardless, the EU is in American interest as it is an economic giant. I really hope you don't think Europe is irrelevant in a time where everyone trades all over the world.
post Dungeonkino
>>343216382
>political opinion
>guy doesn't like Hunky Dory
>>343217130
True enough, but I think that anon is asking more about the people who see this as a victory for racism and not a loss for global economy. That is probably because right wing parties supported the exit, despite the exit not inherently carrying any right wing bias.
>>343217130
>their economy's currently tanking
it isn't
>>343217342
he doesn't like "kooks" because it reminds him of the word "cuck"
>>343217420
There has been reported a wave of racism and xenophobia after the leave votes won. I think it's a loss for both.
>>343216485
Even Bernie Fucking Sanders said Brexit was due to Britons being dissatisfied with globalist economic policies, which is why it's so bewildering to me that all my Bernie-supporting friends are so mad about it.
>>343217925
>There has been reported a wave of racism and xenophobia after the leave votes won
The fuck does this even mean?
>>343217342
David Bowie isn't good anyway
