>If the central narrative is meaningfully interactive, I would classify it as an RPG. That is, I consider interactive storytelling to be the primary defining characteristic of RPGs.
>You would not consider old dungeon crawlers as RPGs, then? And do not many adventure games center around interactive storytelling?
>I would consider them RPGs by the definitions of their time. If someone were to make Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord today, I would not consider it to be an RPG.
Is he right /v/? Is Wizardry not a real RPG?
>"If the game isn't balanced, it must be destroyed."
What did he mean by this?
>>342719001
I've always used RPG to describe any game with meaningful character development options. Do you level up, kill shit and loot shit in Wizardy? Then that's an RPG too.
Dungeon Crawlers didnt always have their own genre per-say, to my mind they're an RPG stripped down to purely gameplay
>>342719156
As head of the Obsidian order, it's his job to spread balance across the land and bring order to chaos.
>>342719001
>rpg
>ROLE PLAYING GAME
Literally any game is an RPG if it lets you pick a role and play it meaningfully.
>>342719001
Yes he's right. Choice and consequence is the cornerstone of RPGs.
>>342719001
>I listen to mentally ill while pretending there's nothing wrong with corporate culture of fear instilled by cultural marxism so prevalent in Western society that we prostrate ourselves before comissars in campuses, workplaces and media as to not look like we're harboring doubleplus ungood thoughts because there is no pause in real time
What did he mean by this?
>>342719373
This, there is "interactive storytelling" in any game with a story since games are by definition interactive.
You again? I guess now that there's new janitors you figure you're free to spam again.
He's right. There isn't much to Wizardry outside of the combat and dungeon crawling. Occasionally you get an odd puzzle, but that's it.
They aren't bad games however.
>>342719561
Pressing buttons isn't interactive. Changing the story is.
>>342719001
If storytelling is your primarily goal in the piece of work you are doing, it's not a game. Or at least it's a very shitty one.
>>342719508
>he fell for the choice and consequence meme
So would that mean this game is an RPG?
>>342719001
He's right
Many of these J"RPG"s are really just strategy games. There's no actual role playing involved, you just move from point A to point B fighting whatever's in your path.
>>342719735
Not the same person that's just the best picture of Josh Sawyer.
Having static genres is what has ruined games. Zelda was sold as an RPG back in its day. Modern games look at what a genre is supposed to be then try to mimic the top game in that genre. as a result, everything is shit
>>342719001
yeah RPGs with no roleplaying are just dungeon crawlers or adventures (like most JRPGs)
>>342719897
Define role-playing and why Wizardry doesn't have any.
Isn't roleplaying just making up your own story in the context of your choice? Be it tabletop or video games.
What stops me from roleplaying in any game?
>>342719813
retarded opinion
>>342720409
Game without gameplay is nothing.
>>342719001
Wizardry as a whole is more complex and challenging that 90% of modern RPGs today with extensive character building but cucks like Sawyer won't consider them an RPG because they don't spoonfeed you story every 5 seconds. Roguelikes will be more interactive than any of your shitty visual novels you now call RPGs nowadays.
>download.jpg
Why is this still allowed?
>>342720408
Playing pretend is not roleplaying. RPGs facilitate the role you want to play through in game mechanics.
>>342719001
I thought you were that same guy that kept making threads about "lol is this guy a cuck guys?" but you're not, and this time he's actually wrong. Nice
>>342720556
>Playing pretend is not roleplaying.
But that's literally what tabletop games such as DnD are. And that's called roleplaying by everyone.
>>342719373
Ya you play roles in games so if you want to just go with semantics than yes every game is a "role playing game".
I think of an RPG as any game where the primary focus is on leveling up characters of varied classes generally with an overarching narrative involved. So this is why a game like CoD:MW can have "RPG elements" without being an actual RPG.
>>342719771
Pressing buttons fits the baseline definition for interactivity. You can pretend the somatic component of gaming is irrelevant, but there's a reason gimmicky motion gaming died.
>>342720409
retarded opinion
>>342720651
Not the same person.
>>342720651
No its not. In table top games your roleplaying is facilitated by in game mechanics. Are you a sneak thief? Well guess what, you're going to have attributes that reflect that often time feats/perk/skills depending on what rules you are playing with
>>342719771
Every time mario jumps is part of the story dickass.
>>342720408
It is. That's why roleplaying is a flimsy justification for a game being good or bad. You should be able to defend the systems of the game, not the LARPing you do.
>>342721103
In fact roleplaying leads to content void as evidenced by slew of survival games powered by facecam people, a design that really should have come with a dedicated empty space for the aforementioned void be filled with a visage of a content creator.
RPG is a vague, useless definition so pretty much anything anyone says is an RPG is an RPG. In the colloquial sense when someone says RPG they generally mean a game with a bunch of menus and stat sheets to keep track of attached to a clearly defined genre.
The only concrete thing a person can ascertain from statements about what's an RPG and what isn't is more about what the individual finds valuable in a game, rather than the classification of the game in question. The guy in the OP is actually making a value judgement, what he's trying to say is that he doesn't believe that dungeon crawlers are any good under the guise of saying they're not RPGs.
>>342720491
Game with only gameplay is a toy.
>>342721760
Better than playing interactive children's books.
>>342721858
Why?
>>342721760
Nope a game with only gameplay is a game.
Makes some sense to me. RPG is a meaningless term nowadays. It can mean The Witcher 2 or it can mean Dark Souls, they are completely different games.
>>342721760
>Game with only gameplay is a toy
Explain. Tell me your definition of a toy and your definition of a game and from there walk me through why one is not the other.
>>342721760
>>342721962
I'll actually make it even easier for you and feed you examples. Go is a game, an old one. A doll is a toy. Tell me how Go is the same as a toy such as a doll.
>>342719342
>grinding for boons and killing shit is the essence of role-playing
I can't believe you're old enough to post here.
>>342720537
>Wizardry as a whole is more complex and challenging that 90% of modern RPGs today with extensive character building but cucks like Sawyer won't consider them an RPG because they don't spoonfeed you story every 5 seconds.
you're making the mistake of assuming that "not being an RPG" is a bad thing.
>>342721962
Toy - A system built solely on mechanics and rules.
Video game - an audio visual experience which is interactive through mechanics.
>>342722076
A doll is a toy but not all toys are dolls.
I've assumed since we're on /v/ and not /tg/ you'd understand the distinction.
>>342722237
Your definition of "toy" would also include sports, which are not toys.
A video game of pure gameplay is closer to a virtual sport than a toy.
When the game does not have a win/lose condition, it can be considered a toy or hobby.
This is why sports without scorekeeping are considered hobbies.
>>342722237
>Toy - A system built solely on mechanics and rules
>A doll is a toy but not all toys are dolls.
So a doll is a system built on mechanics and rules? What are the rules of doll? How about a ball?
>Video game - an audio visual experience which is interactive through mechanics
Speedrunners can play video games blindfolded with the sound muted, does that mean they cease to experience the video game and are no longer playing a video game?
>I've assumed since we're on /v/ and not /tg/ you'd understand the distinction.
What distinction? I need you to educate me
>>342721926
Rainbow Six and Doom are both considered FPS games despite being worlds apart, why can't that extend to RPGs?
>>342719001
Who's this asshole?
>>342722518
That win/lose condition definition of gameplay is way too abstract to be taken seriously until eventually it boils down anything that can be interacted with and changed from one state to another is a win/lose condition.
Video games that are entirely gameplay are not sports. Consider playing monopoly by yourself (or with others, it doesn't really matter), that is obviously not a sport and is closer to a toy.
>>342722797
Obviously, when I say toy I mean a system whose main purpose is entertainment.
The doll looks the way it looks, you can change the way it looks, you can change its posture, move it around, vocalize it, talk to it, etc.
A ball isn't a toy.
Yes, speedrunners don't see the game, but that's only because they memorized it so well they don't need to, that doesn't mean the visuals have vanished.
With that being I would speedrunners don't experience the video game at all nor are they playing it, they're just trying to achieve a shorter time and are not playing within the game's rules or mechanics.
The distinction between games like Go, chess, checkers, poker, etc and video games like Zelda, Witcher, Persona, Fire Emblem etc. Obviously two entirely different mediums.
>>342722912
Joshua "le balance man" Sawyer
>>342719001
not used to seeing this picture without that ridiculous JUST edit
He's right, people just use RPG to refer to anything with an experience system now.
>>342723326
>win/loss conditions are arbitrary
>even if system-defined
There's no arguing with this level of stupid, time to depart.
>>342719001
So based on this desciption, Life is Strange and Heavy Rain are RPGs? Who would have thought.
>>342723767
>Heavy Rain
>Life is Strange
>meaningfully interactive
orly
SEMANTICS
Who gives a shit about the definition of a genre? Literally no impact on anything. It's really just his opinion of a definition. He's not even saying one his good or bad.
Genres are broad categories to make grouping things easier, not to get elitist and start segregating things.
>>342723929
>RPG
>role-playing game
>most in this genre involve no interactive role-playing at all and are merely linear story games with grinding in lieu of "character development"
>semantics
>>342723705
Because you think "Oh darn, I've lost!" every time you die in an open world RPG then immediately reload your save?
No, what makes them video games is not only the ability to die- lose and kill- win, but also lower price through bartering- win, discover a new location- win, get a new skill- win, fail a quest- lose, get a bad ending- lose, lose favor with a character- lose- until eventually all win/loss conditions that make the player feel as if he's actually experiencing something just boil down to the level of interaction with the game.
>>342723326
>That win/lose condition definition of gameplay is way too abstract
In a Quake duel the winner is the one with more kills at the end of the round. What's abstract about this?
>until eventually it boils down anything that can be interacted with and changed from one state to another is a win/lose condition
What's the thought process to reach this conclusion?
>I mean a system whose main purpose is entertainment
So a doll is a system? What is a system?
>The doll looks the way it looks, you can change the way it looks, you can change its posture, move it around, vocalize it, talk to it, etc.
Are you saying that the ability to interact with an object makes it a system?
>A ball isn't a toy.
What is a ball?
>With that being I would speedrunners don't experience the video game at all nor are they playing it, they're just trying to achieve a shorter time and are not playing within the game's rules or mechanics.
It's actually as if they've created a different set of rules that they're competing in
>The distinction between games like Go, chess, checkers, poker, etc and video games like Zelda, Witcher, Persona, Fire Emblem etc. Obviously two entirely different mediums
Why are games different from digital ones? Does a digital, video form of Chess become something completely different from it's original?
>>342724147
>Because you think "Oh darn, I've lost!" every time you die in an open world RPG then immediately reload your save?
That sounds more like there's no lose condition in an open world RPG like there are in games such as Chess or multiplayer Starcraft. Or Street Fighter
>>342724147
>what are side-activities and mini-games
Don't try to re-define my terms to suit your limited scope of comprehension, I've been using them correctly since before you were born.
>>342724076
Semantics - the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. You are arguing about the meaning of a term. This is literally and by definition an argument of semantics. So is this post.
>>342724076
that's my point. just because it's called "role-playing game" means absolutely nothign about what the genre is about. it's just a name, and the genre is more of a "i know it when I see it" kind of thing, but this guy is just arguing "no it means this" as if it really matters what he thinks an RPG is.
You guys are being autistic.
You are taking definitions WAY TOO SERIOUSLY.
They are made up human concept, so there might be GREY AREAS.
Accept it, and move on.
>>342719342
So you consider FarCry 3/4 to be RPGs too?
>>342724449
And you're belittling semantics in this case when it's seemingly quite important for differentiating products.
Diluting a genre or tag makes it meaningless.
Perhaps RPGs that involve no role-playing should stick to "action / adventure" as their developers are wont to do, but then how would you find your grind-fests if not for the usual "RPG" tag?
I propose a new one, just for you: "Grind-fest".
>>342724638
>definitions are not important
Spoken like a true heedless plebian.
>>342719342
>per-say
I wish you faggots would take a moment to look up phrases like this before using them
>>342724762
Bro, they're literally Skyrim with guns, of course they're RPG's.
>>342724638
>You are taking definitions WAY TOO SERIOUSLY
Defintions are, by definition, strict.
If you can't strictly define something it only means you don't have enough knowledge to do so.
>>342719813
there's literally nothing wrong with story driving game play which is what obsidian does well
>>342724312
>In a Quake duel the winner is the one with more kills at the end of the round. What's abstract about this?
There's nothing abstract about this, but there are video games with more complex win/loss conditions than that but you don't see people calling them walking simulators.
>What's the thought process to reach this conclusion?
>>342724147
>So a doll is a system? What is a system?
>a group of related parts that move or work together
>Are you saying that the ability to interact with an object makes it a system?
No, but an object made with a purpose- in this case to entertain, is usually a system.
>What is a ball?
It's an object, a sphere made out of matter. It's most commonly made to be used in team sports which can be considered its purpose, and if people use it to entertain themselves like bounce it around for mindless entertainment that doesn't make it a toy because it wasn't made to be used like that.
>Why are games different from digital ones? Does a digital, video form of Chess become something completely different from it's original?
Boiled down to essentials digital games shouldn't be different than physical ones, but the more complex design you can have with a digital game makes it have a discrete meaning that developed from how modern video games actually are in contrast to physical games, the meaning which I'm referring to.
>That sounds more like there's no lose condition in an open world RPG like there are in games such as Chess or multiplayer Starcraft. Or Street Fighter
Like I said, it doesn't have the same loss conditions but that doesn't make it any less of a video game.
>>342724393
Define side-activities and mini-games.
>>342724771
For every retardation there is an equal and opposite retardation. Sticking to genres and 'tags' as strictly as you are is the opposite retardation.
>>342724892
Who are you quoting?
>>342724638
>2+2=5
>no it doesn't
>wow stop being so AUTISTIC math is just a HUMAN CONCEPT you are taking this WAY TOO SERIOUSLY it's a GREY AREA GET A LIFE YOU NERD
>>342725074
I can't believe Americans are actually this stupid.
>>342719001
I knew he looked familiar
>>342725043
>>342725074
This isn't stem fags there are no strict definitions.
>>342725057
>story driving game play
Too bad only few games use gameplay as storytelling tool in a good way. And no, choices are not good gameplay as storytelling tool.
If you want to tell a story, but are not willing to make good gameplay to suplement it, tell it in a different medium. Want to give detailed description of what goes on the characters minds? Write a book. Want to tell the story trough visually impressing scenes? Make a movie. Want the story to have multiple paths and endings depending on choices? Make a VN.
It's not that hard.
>>342725286
Smarter than you dude.
>>342725043
We're talking about Genres and Video Games. As evidenced by this thread, no one is ever in agreement of the definitions of these. They are inherently broad to encapsulate a large group of things. They are strictly defined as broad groupings.
How many times are we going to have this nonsense about win/lose, then offer counter examples, then move the goalposts, which creates another set of counter examples?
>>342725316
Again, defintions are by definition strict.
Non-strict definition is an oxymoron. If there are any exceptions from the rule they are going to be included in the definition.
>>342725595
Then what I just said can be read as 'there are no definitions' for genres which is also true.
>>342719813
I really can't think of much games with good story and shitty gameplay outside of Dragon Age or Fallout, and even then the latest entries have shitty story too.
>>342725316
>doom-clone becomes FPS to suit publisher's marketing needs in advertising and avoiding mention of a competing product with the same play-style, even though modern FPS have barely changed from the original Doom formula
>RPG remains as-is because the lowest common denominator has latched onto the least significant aspects of previous games in the genre, and publishers want to continue capitalizing on that familiarity despite modern games being nothing like their supposed progenitors
You're just another brand of shill.
>>342725347
Imagine a section in a video game in which you commit a massacre. You stand there and look at the dead bodies and move around, experiencing what you've done and reacting to it exactly as you feel like reacting to it.
Would it have been the same experience watching a character in a movie commit a massacre, watching the scene unfold and given enough time exactly as only the director intended to?
These are two entirely different situations, and just because someone wants to tell a story in a video games through visually impressing scenes doesn't make it less of a video games nor does it warrant a movie instead.
>>342725758
Chrono Trigger
>>342725841
Literally what.
Games can be more than one genre.
Mind = Fuck You
>>342725757
Hardly, since then genres wouldn't exist at all.
Any genre is defined by a set of specific qualitites.
>>342725928
What's your point?
This doesn't change the fact that a game needs specific qualites to fit in a specific genre.
>>342725925
>its tumblr-tier brain can't grasp retroactive commentary
Go back to your safe-space, child.
>>>/reddit/
>>342725925
>Literally what
Not him but he has a good point.
RPGs are being stripped of basic RPG elements because of people like you who think that the definitions don't matter.
People like you are the reason whythings like Fallout 4 passes as an "RPG" these days.
>defining RPGs by anything other than "repeating actions makes stat numbers go up"
>>342726293
Thsi is a literal defintion of "grind", not "RPG".
>>342725937
Then it follows that a game can have all or some or none of the qualities from any number of sets, so it will be very rare for a game to strictly belong to a single one. Therefore you have to accept that there will be a lot of gray area and little room for strict categorization.
>>342726116
No you just can't articulate your thoughts well.
>>342726245
You act as if Bethesda would have made what you consider a RPG if the term hadn't been what you consider misused. In reality they would have just called it something else and you would still hate it.
So is Banjo-Tooie part "shooter" because it has some shooting segments?
But does that mean Xenoblade Chrnoicles is part "walking simulator" because it has walking, adventurous parts?
But does that mean Half-Life is an RPG because you choose your equipment and explore a world and talk to NPCs?
Or is there like a 50% rule?
Also, how is the adventure genre defined? Why are Monkey Island and Legend of Zelda both adventure games? They're totally unrelated. Zelda is clearly a puzzler since most of the game is solving puzzles (Bosses are puzzles too).
Can someone point me to the list of specific qualities and how many of these specific qualities you need to qualify to be that genre? Where can I find this list?
But then we often say something has "elements" of a genre. Does that mean it only has one genre and only elements of others? How much % of the gameplay differentiates "elements" vs being in that genre? And how do you tally that up in the game? Do we get an average player and time the amount of gameplay where he is doing puzzles vs racing vs adventuring? And if these elements overlap, do we only consider one of the elements or do we consider both at half-value? For example, if we are gaining EXP in God of War, does that count both to RPG elements and Action elements and Third-person Adventure Elements? Or are they each valued at a 3rd based on the time? And what about quality of that experience? Maybe time isn't necessarily the best way to separate it.
Why are people so triggered by him?
>>342726542
>In reality they would have just called it something else and you would still hate it
A litltle less acually, as the only thing left to hate would be the fact that they tuned an RPG series into something else.
If they stopped using the Fallout franchise I would be fully satisfied.
But this doesn't change the fact that it's still wrong and dilutes the genre.
>>342719373
Its named after tabletop rpgs. You know, from before videogames.
If you play one of those, you know what a rpg is.
>>342726681
Why is your mom triggered by my massive dong?
>>342726846
You have the right idea but often RPGs that are similiar to tabletop are called cRPGs these days.
>>342726846
>Its named after tabletop rpgs. You know, from before videogames.
>If you play one of those, you know what a rpg is.
Exactly this. An rpg has to be creating your own character, not a predefined one. Like overwatch or some shit. World of warcraft, yes is more RPG than overwatch because you at least make your own avatar.
>>342727126
>An rpg has to be creating your own character, not a predefined one
What about P:T then?
I mean, you can only shape the Nemeless One by the choices he makes and picking specific stats/class, but beyond that he is in fact a pre-set character.
>>342727126
>overwatch
lolwut
also you can have predefined characters in a tabletop campaign
>>342719001
If its not based around systems its not a real RPG but rather just a glorified adventure game
This faggot is completely wrong
>>342719897
You're playing the role of a dude who has to murder-hobo a dungeon. Duh.
>>342726342
"RPG Elements" is code for "grind", why shouldn't RPG and grinding be synonymous?
I can't think of a single RPG that doesn't feature grinding/leveling as an integral mechanic.
>>342719001
He's right.
>>342720049
Genre classification doesnt ruin games. when people make game they try to think of cool things and systemise them. Or they try to think of profitable thing and throw them in. The genre classification is always an afterthought made for marketing purpose.
>>342720556
Nigga tabletop games are all about playing pretend.
>>342719001
>wizardry is not an rpg
This guy is a fucking idiot, without wizardry RPGs as we know them wouldn't exist fucking jrpgs wouldn't exist at all
>>342719373
only literal retards classify genres based on literal interpretations of their names
>game where you shoot the first person you see
>hurr its a first person shooter :^)
>>342726658
Adventure is using tools in an environment.
Action is real time reaction like swinging a sword.
Point and click games are mostly adventure. Zelda is action-adventure.
With rpgs, the outcome of your choices are determained by dice rolls or a battle formula based on stats.
So imagine a shooter-rpg. You pull the trigger, but your accuracy stat is so low you not only miss, but you shot your foot .
>>342727870
Zelda (excluding 2)
>>342727454
>chris avellone became a systemsfag that believes story should always be put behind gameplay
>Obsidian can't even get sequels to their succesful games and are now working on a shitty flash game tier RPG
What went so right?
>>342728071
A sword is a tool and swinging it is using it so action = adventure
>>342728083
If Zelda is an RPG, then "action adventure" is a non-genre.
Zelda is an action-adventure game, not an RPG.
>>342728287
>That game doesn't count as an RPG because it doesn't have grinding
>Hey I just noticed all RPGs have grinding what's up with that? ;^)
>>342728254
Only if theres something to cut or break. Hiting an enemy just lowers points.
>>342727870
>"RPG Elements" is code for "grind"
Not it's not.
>I can't think of a single RPG that doesn't feature grinding/leveling as an integral mechanic
You didn't paly a whole lot of RPGs then.
>>342719001
I thought this was gonna be another one of those "Josh Sawyer is a cuck" threads. Are those still being posted?
>>342719001
Source on this article. So great to hop on to see a thread about a great series.
>>342728394
Name literally ANY other game that plays like a LoZ title and it will be uncontroversially labeled an action-adventure game. It shares no mechanics with any other game labeled "RPG" and it shares all of its mechanics with other games labeled "action adventure".
Why some people treat Zelda (not II) as an RPG I have no idea.
So, according to /v/, is fallout 4 an rpg? If no, why?
>>342728691
It is an RPG by definiton, but its RPG spect is very barebones and clearly not the focus.
It's a shitty open world FPS first and RPG second.
>>342728691
Godd said it is, so it is.
>>342728543
Name 3 or 4.
Seriously, apart from Zelda titles (which people like to call RPGs for some reason) I can't think of ANY RPGs that don't have grinding.
Maybe not for experience; maybe for loot or for money to buy upgrades, but the effect is the same. Kill random enemies so your stat numbers go up.
>>342728662
Because it invests long wordy bits into world building like an RPG.
>>342728602
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Ausir/J.E._Sawyer_talks_about_Strength_requirements_and_defines_RPG
Pasted the quote in google and got this
>>342727870
Shadowrun, VTMB
>>342729024
So does Myst. More than Zelda, actually. Anyone call that an RPG, rather than an adventure (/ puzzle) game?
i know wizardry 8 had you make choices in the game and by those standards it would still be an rpg today but im not sure if the older ones we're actually anything more than a dungeon crawler with characters that level up so yeah probably
>>342729225
I'm sure a lot of people would if as many people talked about Myst as do about Zelda.
I wasn't expecting autism in this thread
>>342729204
Add Underrail with the oddity system
>>342719001
Does this mean Wizardry 1 through 5 are coming to GOG finally?
Return of Werdna with nigh impossible achievements?
>>342729378
why not?
>>342728662
Before action mechanics became its own playstyle, zelda was labled a rpg in the classical sense of you decided what to do.
The important thing to remember is that game genres are defined by gameplay. Not what the look like. Although there are misnomers. Throwing puppies still qualifies as a shooter because you play it by aiming and firing.
>>342729001
THe fact that many RPGs incorporate the leveling as means of defining your character doesn't mean it's a core quality of rolepalying.
Not ot mention you are confusing "grinding" with "progressing",
Fuck I will even include a few modern ones:
Underrail (the oddity experience system relies on exploration rather than killing anything)
Age of Decadence (gaining skill points is a direct effect of progressing further into the story and roleplaying, not the same action repeated Ad nauseam)
VTMB (same deal as with AoD)
You are confused. The increase in stats is not the point of RPGs. It's merely means to an end, be it progression of the interactive story or give you a way to roleplay.
>>342729001
Not that anon, but leveling doesn't have to involve grinding. It's kind of your own fault for even considering it in most RPGs.
For example, just because you can, in theory, "grind" for exp in FNV, doesn't mean you aren't retarded for even thinking about it. Same with Fallout 1-3, the Witchers, Dude Sexes, etc.
>people mix up book and movie genres with games.
Action and adventure mean something else in games than movies.
>not knowing they're called adventure games after the atari game "adventure"
>>342730389
Peope call it zelda clone these days. As if nothing existed befor nintendo.
>>342719001
I understand where he is coming from. It's like JRPGs are always considered these prime RPG examples even though you are playing predetermined characters saying predetermined things instead of creating your own protagonist and personality.
If roleplaying is the focus then combat focused RPGs could be split off into another label. Ultimately that's what it is anyway. A label.
>>342722816
Because the first person perspective is a constant. What exactly is constant about all RPG's? You play a role? You do that in every game ever. You have some sort of stats or skill trees? That's also quickly applying to everything ever.
I think we should be more focused on what RPG means.
>>342731394
I wouldsay RPGs are focused on picking a specific role rather than playing a pre-set one.
>>342731808
You always play the role of Adam Jensen in Deus Ex HR.
>>342731394
>You play a role? You do that in every game ever.
>I think we should be more focused on what RPG means.
I think we should be more focused on what "you play a role" means. The main point of a comedy is to make you laugh but other genres can incidentally make you laugh as well, and this doesn't make it a comedy or diminish comedy or comedies. The main point of an RPG is to give you the experience of playing a role but you can incidentally play a role in other genres as well.
>>342731808
The Witcher games disagree with you
Think the main point of an RPG is the agreement between game and player that your decisions can shape the story. Devil May Cry is not an RPG, nor is Zelda, because the story is fundamentally immutable. You kill the enemies to progress. Dying is a failure state, not a real option.
Deus Ex:HR has minor roleplay elements. The story is largely the same, but there is decision-making that influences things.
Witcher 3 is an RPG. Even though Geralt is to some extent immutable, and the broad strokes of the story remain the same, a lot of it can change based on decisions.
>>342719342
>I've always used RPG to describe any game with meaningful character development options.
>level up, kill shit and loot shit
>meaningful character development
That is not character development, that is statisitical improvement. This is an ancient technique of RPGs and certainly one if its most defining hallmarks, but in no way an essential part.
An RPG can easily exist without any gear, quest or XP. All that it needs is roleplaying.
>>342732324
Indeed.
To expound on that, an RPG in which you play a military commander would have you manage the army and its needs outside of combat as well, if not, it is simply a strategy game, even if it has unlockables with experience.
A roleplaying game confronts you with more than just the most obvious facets of the role, it is per description more about feeling like the role than just doing the mechanical stuff the role is about.
>>342731808
No.
Roleplaying is about trying to imagine to be someone else and how they perceive the world, no matter if the person is predifined or generated.
Usually the predefined roles are actually more nuanced roleplaying, since the fixed character allows for more in depth work on meaningful interactions with the world.
>>342732769
This whole thing is pointless because we are dealing with
1. A divergence of socio-linguistic tokens
2. The adherence of humans to their particular tokens
RPGs to most people means explicit statistical improvement with a story overlaid.
The meaning you're trying to aim at is the domain of PnP RPGs. The problem is that computers suck as flexible DMs who can handle novel player actions without totally breaking a scenario.
A simple tactical game or a simple action game with a story overlaid. You might get to see different dialogue scenes if you choose the other option. That's what an RPG means outside the PnP realm, for the most part.
>>342732019
>>342732374
Both of those let you define your character by the choices you make, and that's their only spect of roleplaying. They are not very roleplaying-heavy games, they are clearly more focused on action.
>>342733417
>Roleplaying is about trying to imagine to be someone else and how they perceive the world, no matter if the person is predifined or generated
No it's not since then every single game could be called an RPG.
Roleplaying is not playing pretend in your own head, it has to be implemented in the game mechanics.
RPGs are wargames with adventuring
>>342733206
That's a bingo.
>>342719001
He's wrong, because you can't just change definitions to suit yourself. Wizardry is an RPG because it contains all the elements found in the genre of computer games that were labelled RPGs.
Tracing the word 'RPG' back to pen & paper games is pointless, computer games are a different medium and the games that first labelled themselves RPGs therefore must define what a computer RPG is. And one of those games is Wizardry.
tl;dr he's a dumb cunt, whoever he is.
>>342735354
Lead Director for Pillars of Eternity
>>342719342
So is GTA 5 an RPG?
>>342732538
Choice and consequences are not a requirement for RPGs although they're nice to have when done well.
