He's not wrong.
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He's not wrong.
>>342370589
who?
>AT LEAST IS BETTER THAN NOTHING
You cant make this shit up
>>342370589
>Telling people something they already
>You can't be mad because you already paid for it
what a fucking revelation
He's not wrong in the sense that you shouldn't give money to Kikestarters at all. And that if you do give money to con-men you should expect it to vanish into thin air.
>>342370589
Really makes you think.
>twitter drama
I wish mods would ban these threads
He is wrong.
Don't promise a game and then spend the money on a TV series and other stupid shit no one wants or agreed to pay for.
The final product was shit because the developers were incompetent. They absolutely deserve to get their shit pushed in by "investors"
>>342370589
>Give us money without any compensation
>>342370589
>Did you enable cool folks to make cool thing? YES <3
but you just said that they fucked up
By the way, wasn't the result of Dina fiasco the fact that you couldn't ask for a refund, because people started massively asking for them?
>>342370589
He had a point with the investment part, as much as it pisses me off. But he should have stopped there.
>>342370589
He's wrong on at least three points
>Kickstarter is an investment
>MN9 is a cool product
>MN9's team tried their best
I'd also argue his idea that consumers aren't righjt to be annoyed is flawed and that if he really thinks MN9 was worth four years and four million dollars, he's fucking crazy.
No, he is wrong, but I can't really feel sorry for those who got conned by those hacks hard either. They should have known that investing money without any way to enforce the results meet your expectations is just insane.
>>342371836
>>342371892
>Investment
It isn't.
His argument is a mess.
Nobody is immune to criticism, least of all from people who invested. Just because they apparently "tried their best" and "everyone makes mistakes", it doesn't make investors assholes for not being happy with their delayed, shitty product.
>>342372121
And why is that?
You give money to creators so they could create a product that does not yet exist. Your expectation is that they will deliver the product and you will enjoy it. That sounds like an investment to me. If you mean that you will not make more money from the invested money, sure, but that's just arguing semantics.
>>342372217
>Invest
There's that word again.
No one invested. They donated.
>>342372342
That's sounds like a preorder to me.
With the added caveat that the game you preorder may never exist.
>Arguing the definition is just semantics
Nope. This isn't an investment. Its a gamble.
>>342370589
Will game devs ever not be autistic fuckheads?
>>342372548
>Arguing the definition is just semantics
fuck off
>>342372342
Investors give for a stake of something in return. e.g. I will give you ten thousand dollars in return for however much of the company/resulting profits
None of the donators own any part of MN9, Comcept or the resulting profits. Inafune is therefore technically not beholden to them.
I guess that's this guys argument; you were only promised "a game", nothing more. The idea that people shouldn't be angry at their fuck-up is ridiculous though.
the part where kickstarter is a gamble and not a real store is true though.
He's right in the sense that spending on a kickstarter is an investment, not a purchase so you need to be prepared for the investment to go bust.
He's also wrong in saying that we shpuld be happy that we got anything at all. Investors tend to have a right to hold the investee accountable if a project fails, so their reputation should drop, especially if the project fails due to massive fuckery on the devs behalf.
>>342372342
its a donation not an investment
I frankly don't understand how people still fall for the scam starter ruse.
Anyone that says kickstarter is a investment has already failed whatever argument they're trying to make. It's a fucking donation faggots, get it right.
>should be seen as an investment
why do people keep using this word like this? investments product returns. holy shit
>>342370589
>don't be a dumbass and spend money on a hope and expect it all to be exactly what you wanted
Good point
>I tried! that justifies all the pants on head retarded choices I made!
Bad point
>>342370589
>pledging to Kickstarter should be seen as an investment
Where are my dividends?
>Kickstarter is; a platform where you can pledge financial support
A pledge (donation) is not an investment, though.
>>342370589
>let's not criticize anything, even when we're entitled to something because we financed it
God-fucking-dammit, this honestly pissed me off
Who the fuck is this dipshit anyway?
I want all these people to be sent away on an island where they can all live together in an environment where if you fuck up you get a pat on the back and are told 'you did your best'. Really would love to see how it turns out.
>>342372769
You didn't say "fuck off" to the Twitter twat who opened up with a string of Twitter semantics, retard.
>>342373553
This.
Kickstarter is a preorder where the game may never be released.
>>342373510
This.
Kickstarter is more like a retarded early pre-order. Project Cars was an actual investment that paid off.Buy the game today! :^)
>>342373661
I get tat he's saying that donating to Kickstarter is supposed to be a gamble, that's fine
But the fact that you can't just criticize awful products will just encourage mediocrity
ALRIGHT /v/ TIME TO PICK YOUR ENDING
>Kick starter is shut down
>Crowd funding dies out
>Huge publishers go unopposed and openly intergrate commericals and marketing in the game as well as deepening existing jew trends like cash shops
vs
>Crowd funding becomes the dominant method
>There is no quality control, devs put out whatever the fuck they want with no consequences
>Everything is of varying quality.
>>342370589
>kickstarter is not a store front
Sure, good advice
>pledging is a gift
Nah
Also just because someone is given money to make something doesn't mean they're magically exempt from criticism when the thing they make is shit.
And as always
>literally who?
kickstarter is not a shop, it's an investment center. he is right there.
if the money you invest is mismenaged and the product didn't live up to the promise you are right to be enraged with the developer, but also with yourself for falling into a shitty investment.
and that's it: it's ok if you are angry and it's ok if you affect negatively the reputation of the developer as a result of that failure.
He deserves to get his reputation damaged but that's it. you can't get anything more than that.
the biggest problem is that you invested into something without getting any real control checks and insurances over it.
it's up to you to realize if there is any legal system in place to get back your money, and you know really well that kickstarter is barebone on that front.
Developer don't even show anyone how much everyone in the team is paid, they won't let you know what they spent the last 2000$ they got on. A real businessman would run away screaming from an investment with this kind of conditions, so why shouldn't you do the same?
>>342374074
I choose...
Things carry on exactly as they are and within a month Shitty Number 2 is forgotten except for the saltiest """""" investor""""""" and the most die hard memesters.
>>342370589
>JUST SPEND YOUR CASH ON A RELEASED GAME NEXT TIME
now that's some good advice
>>342370589
Thing is, if there wasn't such a reaction any time a project falls on it's face, the project creators would be less motivated to get it right. This is the same form of videogame development they've had, but they're beholden to the fans and not shareholders.
>>342370589
>Kickstarter is not a storefront.
He is 100% right about this. People treat it like some sort of preorder system like it's gamestop and not like they're a person funding the project to be made.
>Saying you can't call the devs out on doing a shitty job.
He can fuck himself.
>>342374074
Ending A, because
1) Publishers are unopposed anyway and are already going full jew.
2) The market being flooded with shitty games will push people towards publishers, who will then get their numerous flaws even more ignored due to being at least competently put together. A few gems won't stop that tide
3) People are, albeit INCREDIBLY slowly, waking up to jew tricks.
4) Indie games will always exist, and denial of crowdfunding will weed out the laziest shits among them, leaving a few good games alonside the phone tier games and/or cash grabs
>>342374489
>INVESTMENT
REEEEEEEEEE REEEEEE
THAT AINT HOW YOU SPELL GIFT GAMBLE OR PRE ORDER.
>>342370589
obviously they didn't try their hardest though
>>342370589
People arn't complaining because they think that'll magically make the game better. They are complaining so a piece of shit who thought he could get free cash by exploiting a fanbase is globally known as a piece of shit.
>You got robbed, why the fuck are you filing a police report
>WHY ARE YOU SENDING A GOOD NIGNOG TO JAIL
>YOU GOT A GOOD EXPERIENCE OUT OF IT, LEAVE HIM ALONE TO ROB OTHER PEOPLE
What a fucking faggot.
>>342370589
A small loan of four million dollars.
>>342374661
Pretty much this. For it to be an investment you would need to see a possible return on the money. You don't. if the game makes it huge? Congrats now you get to buy a copy. You won't own stock in it, you won't a portion of the licence.
It's literally donating money to a project you want to succeed.
>>342371582
dat strawman
it's more like
>decide between giving us money and having a % chance at compensation, vs giving us nothing and having a 0% chance at getting anything.
How much does the game cost anyway ?
>>342370589
>Pledging to Kickstarter should be seen as an investment, that you're willing to write off there and then.
WHY THE FUCK DO RETARDS KEEP THINKING DONATING TO KICKSTARTER IS AN INVESTMENT. HOLY FUCK.
>>342370589
The main difference with Kickstarter and real investment is that the creator doesn't have to deliver anything. They have no obligation beyond a promise.
Plus the obvious problem that most KS projects are driven entirely by nostalgia and doomed to fail.
>>342374849
Either way that's stupid. They're asking for people to give them money so they can complete a product that they will in turn sell to you. That's not how patronage works
>>342371619
It can still be cool even tho it doesnt reach your expectations!
>>342374849
>give us nothing and get nothing
I personally did t need to donate, the game exists.
If he hadn't crowdfiunded, maybe a worthwhile game could have been financed the traditional way by a company pushing him and expecting results.
>>342370589
>people who tried their hardest
sure
Kickstarter needs a more open system when it comes to how money is spent. Like have the person report all their financial records dealing with the donations to KS or something then KS makes that open and viewable to the backers
Because at this current state, you can get $10,000,000 to make a book, spend $100,000 getting some shit printed at kinkos and pocket the rest for yourself and KS won't do anything because "lol hey he made the book so he didn't violate anything"
>>342374980
except that pretty much every kick starter gives copies of their games to backers
>>342375067
it's the same with everything like this: we are fortunate that tons of people don't think like you do or there would be less of these creations in the world. whether you actually like them or not, it's hard to argue that it makes the world a better place.
>>342370589
>Did they fuck up? Yeah, sure, but who hasn't?
That they fucked up is unfortunate, but no one should give them a free pass for it.
>an express ticket to Hurtsville
does this guy write for Marvel movies?
>>342374849
>0% chance at getting anything
Except I can spent these money on acclaimed games and have 100% of getting something.
>>342375131
Why? You're just donating money to a project you want to succeed. You have no actualy vested interest in it.
>I want to have all the rights of a stock holder for no reason
>>342374897
Well you are investing money hoping for a good game in return
>It's an investment
>B-B-BUT DON'T BE MAD AT THEM IF THE INVESTMENT WASN'T WORTH IT
If an investment goes wrong, sure I can't get my money back, but I can still choose to call you a fucktard and not invest with you anymore. Saying "well, did you get something at least? Yes? Good!" is the up the on the list of Most Anti-Consumer Phrases of All-Time, because it's an underhanded attempt to get you to ignore the quality of the product if it fails.
Kickstarter is a gamble. Never take a gamble you don't have a chance of winning.
I think kickstarter( the website )
Should ask a demo of the game they wish to crowd fund ,like they ask for a prototype if you wish to crowd fund an object /invention
>>342371887
Kixkstarter is a donation
>>342375131
>KS staff expected to do work for their cut
Pfffft, no. That's precisely why there's no oversight. The biggest winners here are kickstarter, all profit no effort.
>>342375261
>except that pretty much every kick starter gives copies of their games to backers
right, so you're getting something for your donation.
just because he's correct doesn't mean he's right
>>342370589
He hits it dead on but stumbles on the run to first base. It's entirely right that Kickstarter is a glorified donation service and backers shouldn't think they're buying a finished product.
However shitting on Inafune for making a hilariously terrible and mismanaged game is justified.
>>342375261
I do back things on kickstarter though. I just make better choices.
>>342375356
I wish I could donate you some reading comprehension.
>Kickstarter is just donations!
>These are just promises!
You are literally saying "Here's my idea, give me money so I can do it." It's an investment. I give money in order to see a product/project happen, not because I care about the people (otherwise I'd use Patreon). If there is no return on my investment (or it's shitty, delayed, and full of drama) then it's certainly a reasonable expectation that they'll receive complaints. I don't care how hard they "tried", they failed to deliver what I paid for, and while not illegal, it still deserves ire, and their shitty reputation is earned.
Not that it matters, I didn't back this shit show.
>>342375284
Even charities have to report financial information faggot. It's nothing about having rights as a stockholder. It's about accountability.
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/kickstarter-embezzlement-saskatchewan-house/
>>342370589
>Yeah the game sucks
>Enabled cool people to make cool shit
A contradiction in the same fucking tweet. I legit hate that he and I are of the same species.
He's right in that the retards who fund Kickstart er projects don't understand the dynamics of investment and the downsides that come with it
The game looks like utter shit though
Has any kickstarter ever given out shares of revenue for your contribution?
>>342370589
> Kisckstarter is like an investment
This is a good analogy,
Here's another one for you, imagine after 3 years you come back to see how you're investment it doing and not only have you not made any money, but half your initial investment is gone and the firm says "well, it's better then nothing". You have a right to be more then upset.
I've never backed a game but people do have to realize that your money is gone the moment it leaves your hands and the company has no obligation to deliver you anything.
>>342375715
Accountability for what? You give them money with literally no strings attached. If they decide to scrap the project and keep the money it is well within their rights.
>>342370589
I agree with everything except the bottom Tweet.
They deserve to hear about it.
>>342371552
Welcome to investing
Do you research and due diligence or lose your money, retard
>>342375953
>If they decide to scrap the project and keep the money it is well within their rights.
but that's wrong fucktard.
>>342375689
It's not an investment, with investment you gain ownership of something, be it part of a company, land, etc.
Kickstarter is giving money to a project in exchange for a glorified IOU in the case they succeed. It's a donation at best.
>>342374841
>Investment
>the action or process of investing money for profit or material result
>material result
And there it is. Stop splitting definitions and being a semantic autist.
>>342372884
>investing requires return to *you*
Wrong
>>342375953
> If they decide to scrap the project and keep the money it is well within their rights.
Actually no. That's straight up fraud.
You have to be 18+ to post here.
>>342375953
that's straight up fraud and they'd get sued
>>342375953
To be on a Kickstarter they have to promise to deliver something to you. If they fail to do that you can sue them. Their game can be the biggest garbage ever but they have to deliver it.
>>342370589
> 4 million dollar project
> side scroller 2d megaman knock off
> fails
> it's better than nothing
It's stories like this that remind me I am higher on the food chain than most of you idiots.
>investors shouldn't balk when the product is subpar or non-existent
hope this dude never encounters the real world
I'm convinced that only complete morons care about kikestarter
>>342376068
>glorified iou
Literally every investment ever
>>342370589
>kickstarter should be seen as an investment
>you should put your money into something and should be lucky to get anything in return
Why do retards keep referring to Kickstarter as an "investment"? Investment implies that there are profits to be made, with Kickstarter at best you get exactly what you pay for, and at worst, you get nothing. Being a fanboy that is so desperate for a product that you are willing to throw your money years in advance with no promise of even getting what you pay for does not make you an "investor". Sounds like this guy wants crowdfunding to be seen as charity work.
>>342375881
i don't think so and i don't think that they can do it with their legal setup.
however you get something back directly proportional to the amount you donated. If you get lucky and the game is successful the hand-signed poster the devs mailed to you might be worth twice what you donated when sold on ebay.And so on.
Access to closed beta or tradable items in multiplayer games can grow a lot in price as the playerbase expands too.
Two questions:
1. Who is this chucklefuck?
2. Why should I care what he has to say?
>>342376068
>>342376101
Obviously kickstarter backers aren't Shark Tank, you fucking pedant. You are "donating" money while expecting a return. Just because it's not ownership or profit doesn't mean the concept no longer applies.
So many people falling for the investment meme.
Crowdfunding is nothing more than a glorified preorder for something that is still in its earliest stages of development.
>>342376452
>a literal who
>because le /v/ bait threads
>>342375820
>being this edgy
>legit
I agree that he's retarded and pulling strawman arguments hardcore, but you are an even bigger faggot than him. Hope highschool goes well for you. Ilegit/spoiler]imatelyhate you.
>>342376227
>tfw you know a literal autistic neckbeard weeaboo who dumped over £1k into a kickstarter game, got invited to lunch with the developer and physically spaghetti'd everywhere because he couldn't handle his drink
>>342376506
it doesn't
just because you donated 1$ doesn't mean you're entitled to anything
>>342371552
This is why publishers are actually important. They would have gone in and slapped Inafune about for even suggesting that shit.
>>342376407
You could on that shitty vidya only kickstarter site that tim schafer made.your game would have to sell what the original psychonauts did in it's entire lifespan for you to get your $500 investment back though
>>342376738
So like ten copies? Doesn't seem too hard.
>>342376737
Kickstarter was supposed to be a revolution. Vote with your wallets. Contribute to things you want to see get made. Get an insight into the development of a game. Loosen the shackles publishers imposed onto game devs.
I don't know a single kickstarter game that has been released on time that hasn't been total horseshit.
>>342370589
And here I thought the point of kickstarter was to allow devs to code games without publisher's meddling.
Turns out it was all about being unaccountable.
>>342370589
This is from a generation that's been constantly told they're special and given participation trophies. Even as an adult in the real world, they think that they're entitled to other people's money to fund their dream job in the entertainment industry. It doesn't matter if product is shit, but people should fund and applaud them merely for "trying".
>>342377130
shovel knight was good but got delayed several times.
>>342374074
2nd option, with an added point of
>all final game releases will be free
think about it.
It's also pretty dumb to say "there's no quality control, devs put out whatever the fuck they want with no consequences" because that is absolute bullshit. The quality control is the people; good studios that stick to their promises and have good quality will stand out and people are more likely to fund their new projects. Or do you seriously think that another kickstarter from scamafune would succeed?
I'll back 10% of your game under the condition you call me Lord Kevin of Wonderful for the rest of your life.
>>342377130
REALITY CHECK
>people who can and will develop worthwhile games have the money or can get it somehow
>the average consumer is a fucking moron, this goes hand in hand with them donating minimum amounts in large quantities on shitty "projects"
>people asking for the money are in turn shit developers with no backing or real team which is why they need to beg for money
Kickstarter is a ball of awful things. It sounds good on paper but it is absolutely retarded, you vote by buying good games you like not by funding a fucking project. Retards.
>>342370589
First 3 are right, the rest are trash
>>342377323
this a thousand times
fucking spoiled little shits, if someone invests money and you fail to deliver or deliver a subpar product, no fucking shit they're going to be pissed. try pulling that shit with the real world and see what your investors think. in certain cases you can even get sued for it.
>>342370589
>investment
theres that word again
Also note how he straight out says giving free shit to companies/devs is A-OK and heavily implies it is a good thing and the right thing to do. Don't know who this faggot is but he's probably a dev himself
>it's an "OP posts some cringy OC on another site, screencaps it, and tries to trigger /v/"
Stop acting underage OP
>>342377598
kickstarter has produced some good things but people should be real fucking skeptical of projects on it.
>>342376736
You can say that as many times as you like, but you'll never be right when the people starting kickstarters go
>IF YOU GIVE ME X MONEY HERE IS WHAT I GUARANTEE YOU IN RETURN
>>342378030
at this point you should question yourself if its possible or is the guy just bullshitting
almost always its the second one
>>342376736
you're not entitled to anything
the dev is also not entitled to not have people bitch at them for wasting their money, though
>>342370589
Why does he talk like a 14 year old girl on tumblr?
>>342378391
Maybe so, but rarely does "You should have been more pessimistic" hold up in a court of law.
Definition of investment according to some retards in this thread:
>Giving people money and maybe receiving something that's worth that amount of money or anything at all back.
>Excuse me while I go make some investments at those slot machines.
>>342370589
He is correct in that people aren't entitled to finished products on Kickstarter, seeing how the devs have no legal obligations. HOWEVER there is a problem with his argument. People should absolutely be allowed to rage and bitch about products that fall short or don't come out, at all.
People shouting and being assholes is an extra incentive for the devs to not fuck up and release what they've promised.
Although developers stand to gain "free" money, they also stand to lose reputation which is far more important in this industry than a couple of thousand of bucks.
>>342377130
There have been lots of Kickstarter games released that have turned out pretty good. Probably some you've played and never even knew they were kickstarted.
It's just that the big flops like these cause the platform to end up looking worse than it is.
>>342378539
Investments aren't guranteed rewards though
>>342378539
>Excuse me while I go make some investments at those slot machines.
At least you have a minuscule chance of winning some money with slot machines. Not only are you not profiting from Kickstarters, but you're usually over-paying when stretch goals are stuff like $50 T-shirts and $10 000 to have lunch with the developer (travel expenses not included).
>>342374897
Why the fuck are you so adamant about letting everyone know that you haven't the slightest idea of the definition of an investment.
>>342378675
and that's exactly why investors can criticize who they invest in as well as warn others.
>>342378868
what a cute
>>342378675
That's not a free pass for them to fail, you dumb shit. Investments are made based on faith and the promises of the one being invested in. Letting down that faith and breaking your promises is business suicide.
>>342378675
Yes, but investments have the possibility of getting more than what you put in. There is zero chance of that happening when you back a Kickstarter.
>>342378868
>Non-monetary profits do not exist.
>>342370589
>investment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOVXUmX0CJI
>>342378556
To be fair (I'm only playing devil's advocate here), the phrase "buyer beware" exists for a reason.
I remember thinking, when MN9 was announced, that this was all way too good to be true. They set the bar for themselves too high and I knew full-well that they'd never make good on the bulk of what they were saying.
Especially since Inafune was the one who was pretty much the one who sent Capcom down the road they were on ("DMC5 looks too similar to DMC4, do something crazy!" "Outsource more!").
Still though, people are very right to be wary of kickstarter. Between this and "Cans Without Labels" and a host of other projects that either failed to do what they said they would or flat-out disappeared.
>>342378675
With crowdfunding you know you won't make any profit out of this deal right from the get go. You might break even at best if you only choose to get the product. How do people see that as an investment is beyond me.
Kickstarter is not an investment platform, it's a very clear-cut donation platform.
Anyone who even remotely associates the word "investing" with Kickstarter is an uneducated retard.
>>342379165
>Non-monetary profits do not exist.
Name one example of this. Getting what you pay for is not making a profit. Pledging $50 and getting a copy of the game you backed is not "profiting", it's getting what you paid for.
>>342376360
>every investment ever is a glorified iou
I wish you could punch your dumbass face in.
>>342370589
He's not wrong that Kickstarter isn't a store front.
The rest of his posting is pure autism written like a teenager.
Did you forge it for him, or does a grown man in 2016 write like tumblr?
>>342370589
>people who tried their hardest to please you
But that's wrong.
The dude spent the money in an animated series and other shit nobody cares.
>>342370589
>keji inafune
>cool people
>mn9
>cool thing
>TRIED THEIR HARDEST
oh im laffin
>>342377631
Giving money to a Kickstarter would fit the definition of an 'investment' under any legal framework.
>It is not the same as a purchase because, at the time, there is no product for the Kickstarter to offer as valid consideration.
>It is not a Gift as the donor expects material gain from the 'gift'
>It is not a Trust as it is for a commercial, not charitable purpose.
It remains a bizarre investment scheme where the entrepeneur retains absolute discretion over funds, 100% share, and is not required to provide the investor with information, profits or chattels.
Kickstarter Schemes are a creature of their own wherein the investor forfeits all the legal rights that an investor would normally assure themselves.
TL;DR - You are literally throwing your money away into investment schemes where you have no rights.
>>342378675
An investment implies profit. Like some people here said, paying $ 50 and getting a $ 50 dollar game is not profit and thus is not an investment. It's just the most retarded thing ever: a pre-order on a game that doesn't even exist yet.
>>342379553
>implying it isn't
You have no expectation of a return with an investment, just like a donation
Literally the only difference is that you expect an investment to give a return at some point. The return doesn't need to be money
>tried their hardest
if that was going to be trying their hardest, I would have preferred they not tried at all desu
>>342374074
The second route is better so I'll take it.
What people choose to do with their own money is their problem, not mine.
>>342379476
>Getting what you pay for is not making a profit.
So then getting money back from your investment is not profit by your definition.
>>342376736
yes it does, you fucking imbecile.
Kickstarter is not a charity, it is peer-investment. Money in - product out that's the whole gig.
If you invest enough money into a project for a kickstarter 'reward' then you're fully entitled to be pissed off and call the devs out for their shit.
If you donated but not enough for a 'reward' then you're still entitled to complain because you're helping someone make something, and if that something turns out not as advertised then you were misled.
"not entitled" fuck you, you dumbass.
>>342370589
>MN9 devs
>tried their hardest
Kekerino champerino
>>342379172
Mecha is so great, he never fails to make me laugh.
>>342379871
It's a donation because the dev doesn't even have to give you the product. A lot of people donate and doesn't get their games even if the project is complete. You donate money to a person to make HIS project and in return he acknowledges your help by giving you a copy of his work and sometimes something extra.
>>342370589
Kick starter exist to fund people who have been fired from everywhere else.
>>342380310
>"An investment is an asset or item that is purchased with the hope that it will generate income or appreciate in the future." -Investopedia
Unless you think that you'll be able to make money off your digital purchase of MN9 - it's not an investment.
>>342380310
I don't know what's so hard to understand, an investment means you put in money with the chance of getting something more in return. Kickstarters you get either nothing, or something equal in value to what you put in.
>>342380045
Let me stop this conversation right here because you clearly doesn't know what an investment is.
>>342380045
>better pump money into MSFT, can't wait to receive zero, or negative return for my share in the company.
you royal dickweed
/v/ - Twitter
>>342380575
>-Investopedia
>what is context
>>342380575
>or appreciate
>'to recognise the full worth of'
So it IS an investment, thanks for clearing that up
I think every indie game should follow minecraft instead of this kickstarter bullshit
>have a job outside of game development, start off with the game as a hobby
>let people download the unfinished version for free and give feedback
>when the game feels more complete and it starts gaining traction you can sell it for money
>dev doesn't stress themselves the fuck out over deadlines and make a shit game
>players get to be involved in the development process
>its not a total waste of time if your game doesn't succeed
>>342380670
>nuh uh
Truly enlightened
>>342380710
>all investments are the same
>Hurr muh colloquial understanding of what an investment is
>>342380327
>entitled to be pissed off
You're entitled to that even if you didn't DONATE anything. We all, as human beings, can get angry at the abuse of the good will of others.
>>342380849
>Buying a thing with hopes of it increasing in value or generating you more money than you've put in is investing.
>Everything else is not investing.
What more context do you need?
>>342380857
Please tell me you're not actually this retarded.
>>342370589
Its shit like this which is why I have never in my life even considered backing a Kikestarter.
>>342381145
This.
>>342381145
Its nowheres near that easy. You've never made a game and Minecraft was voxel
>>342371619
>"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""INVESTMENT"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Actually generally investors expect way more influence than a kickstarter. It is at best: a bad gamble in a slot-machine that only pays in possibly-good usually-bad games.
Every fucking time a kickstarter uses "invest" I want to invest in a company that breaks the legs of kickstarters.
>>342381250
>uses the definition for investment from a purely financial source
>see look it says money
Lol
>mfw you'll say taxing only pertains to money too next
>>342380595
>Invest $20
>Hope you get a good game in return
>???
>Profit (get an amazing game in return)
What's so hard to understand here?
>>342381145
The problem with this is that it only works with simple games.
If you want to develop a 50 hour RPG within a reasonable time frame you'll want to hire employees and that requires money.
>>342370589
>people who tried the hardest
They did not try at all. This fucking guy does not even know what is iterative design.
>>342381594
>buy a donut
>it tasted better than I thought
Wow, what a wise investment!
>>342381558
Alright, what quantifiable return do you get for your "investment" in a Kickstarter?
>>342381250
> Investing only has one definition
> the first place you look is fucking financial wiki
i invest a lot of time in maintaining friendships, but i can't fucking sell them at the end of the quarter
Does Kickstart call what happens there investment? Because if they fucking do, why haven't they been sued yet? There are people there who just take the money and go. If it's a donation, that shit's fine, but if you called it an investment you HAVE TO GIVE SOMETHING BACK EVENTUALLY.
>>342381964
read: >>342381916
By your definition every purchase everyone has ever made has been an "investment".
>>342381964
>i invest a lot of time in maintaining friendships
and i'm investing on my will to not track you down and kill you.
>>342381832
>Moving the goal post from non-monetary profit not existing, to how wise or not they are to invest in.
>>342370589
NICE VIDEO GAMES
/twt/ board when
>>342370589
>PEOPLE WHO TRIED THEIR HARDEST TO PLEASE YOU
If Inafune had tried his hardest to please people then he would have spent the money on developing the game he promised instead of cashing in on a TV series and voice acting and other stupid shit.
>>342381916
>quantifiable
Why does it need to be quantifiable?
Education is form of investment
Time can be an investment
Returns don't need to be financial
>>342382073
>Does Kickstart call what happens there investment?
Hahaha, of course not.
>>342381832
Buy =/= invest
When you buy something you have a guarantee to get something in return by law.
Investment, not so much.
>>342381594
Getting what you paid for still isn't a profit just because the product you're getting is better than you expected.
>>342370589
> tried their hardest
> shoved people's money into retarded shit
Heh, no.
>>342382164
No, but they're related
An investment can fail, and the [reward] is deferred into the future.
A purchase can't "fail" unless you get a faulty product, but that's a different subject. The reward from a purchase is instant
>>342377130
>I don't know a single kickstarter game that has been released on time that hasn't been total horseshit.
So you don´t know shit then. good that you participate in this discussion.
>>342370589
>Give your hard earned capital for someone to make a quality thing
>that person badly manages the thing, doesn't meet the deadlines given by himself and shits out a poor product that doesn't meet what he said he'd do
>STOP COMPLAINING, I MEAN WHO HASN'T COMPLETELY FUCKED IT ALL UP SPECTACULARLY WITH THE MONEY OF HUNDREDS? STOP BEING THE ASSHOLES, GUYS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhYehxJjcRc
>>342370589
I fucking hate twitter, which way do you even read this?
>>342382470
Education (knowledge) is quantifiable, time is quantifiable as well. Explain to me how donating at the 30$ tier with intent to get a copy of the game is in any way, shape or form an investment. AND if you actually believe that it is an investment, following your logic - how is buying a can of tuna from the supermarket not an investment?
>>342382497
Thanks.
If kickstart actually protected people who donated we would be in a better place. I see that shit crashing down in a few years.
>>342382498
You have some guarantees when you invest too, Anon. You can have at least part of your money back.
>>342382164
what. nothing i said relates to purchases.
>>342383034
Not in all investments. At least not by law.
>>342382664
Getting what you paid for still isn't a profit just because the amount of money you're getting is greater than you expected.
>>342382891
>explain how
The benefit of possibly being able to play the game in the future
Vs. A donation where you can't expect any return in any sense of the word ever
>buying
Already wrote against this
>>342382791
>>342382470
Education is quantifiable. There is a measured correlation between education and income.
Time is inherently quantifiable. That's why income is measured annually.
If there are no tangible gains to be had then you're not making an investment, you're just consuming. In this case, consumption = eating shit.
>>342382791
Weather or not something is an investment doesn't depend on weather or not it can "fail", but on the benefit it can provide that EXCEEDS the value you've invested.
>>342383237
>A donation where you can't expect any return in any sense of the word ever
That's exactly what Kickstarter is.
>>342383168
People can't just get money from investments and then give nothing back. Getting money for nothing or for something symbolic is a donation.
Don't try to disguise a scam
Con Man no.9 scammed everyone. It's impossible to fuck up with so much money on a platform as easy to develop as UE4
He shat out a turd and bailed with the money. At least his reputation is damaged enough.
>>342383192
>manchild thinks he's a business investor just because he really likes the video games and movies that he buys.
I thought that much was obvious from the start.
so maybe people will finally wise the fuck up about backing video games through kickstarter.
Do we live in such a bizarre world where people learn from their mistakes?
>>342383364
(You)
If you disappoint your investors expect to see your name dragged through the mud. Not complicated.
You don't have to succeed, failure happens, but you are going to lose all honor. That's the consequence.
>>342383292
>eat shit
>absorb shitty nutrients
>???
>profit by gain additional time to live by not dying from starvation
>kickstarter
>tried their hardest
>>342383292
You can invest into education and still lose money in the long run, but gain a benwfit that isnt quantifiable, like working in a field you enjoy
>time is quantifiable
That's not my point. You can invest your time into ventures that reward something other than money. Like raising children or something.
>if the gains aren't tangible it's just consuming
>what is fame
>>342383296
Yes this is true, only your idea of value is wrong. Value isn't solely monetary, it just often is. Like when you buy something, value is created on both sides of the transaction, not just the seller.
Holy fucking shit I just said this >>342373479 and yet anons are STILL WILLINGLY DESTROY THEIR ARGUMENTS BEFORE THEY BEGIN BY DOING THE EXACT MISTAKE I SAID YOU SHOULDN'T DO.
And you guys wonder why your own post deserve nothing but mockery.
>>342383528
This. That idiot on twitter is trying to make the dumb-dumbs who gave someone money to develop a game look bad when the dev shat out a smelly turd instead of delivering a good product. Fuck those people.
>>342383364
>Kickstarter being shit renders the idea wrong
No, and it's not wholly shit for some people, myself not included
>>342383768
>I don't know about all the crowdfunding horror stories that happened.
>>342383920
>my word is law, if you disagree you're wrong
>>342383979
Also an investment also expects to give you something back. Maybe not as good as you hoped for but certainly NOT THIS BAD.
iF YOU TOLD ACTUAL INVESTORS "WELL IT'S BETTER THAN NOTHING" YOU WOULD BE CRUCIFIED
So if I choose a payment tier that explicitly states "You get a copy of this game if you pay this much" then they're not required to give me anything in return because there are "no strings attached"?
Help me understand.
>>342384145
Everyone does.
>>342383920
>Paying tax is just a donation
>Paying tax is not an investment in your country
How fucking retarded are you m8?
You are propably one of those MLP loving faggots who jiff themselves off to girls from your school on facebook.
>>342384198
>"You get a copy of this game if you pay this much"
yep. which makes it a purchase, according to a lot of people in the thread.
>>342383542
Nice projection, ad hominem and lack of arguments.
>>342383768
Investment is an intent of "gaining more value later on", not an intent of "hopefully not losing value while having absolutely no chance of gaining any", as you've implied here: >>342382791
And this: >>342383364 anon is correct. Backing a Kickstarter is a donation, not an investment.
>>342384198
>Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.
https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use
>>342384148
You can't disagree with reality, Anon.
>>342384158
>a donation expects literally anything to happen that will affect the donor
"At least it's something" is actually true. Kickstart cucks are getting more than literally nothing
>>342384351
>what is risk
Wow, I should start investing now since it's guaranteed returns.
>>342384198
>then they're not required to give me anything in return because there are "no strings attached"?
Yes, they are required to do that, because if they don't then they violate the contract between them and you. The problem is that kickstarter doesn't give a fuck, you have to sue them yourself.
>>342370589
This man deserves to be sodomized.
>>342370589
>promise to deliver cool thing
>don't have the experience to make cool thing
Should I kickstart some of the shit I dreamt up on the crapper too?
>>342384198
You can, and a lot of times will, get a huge 'fuck you, you get nothing, good day, sir!'
There's nothing on that website that obliges the receiver to give you anything.
>>342384351
>as you've replied here
Not me retard. And no, you monkeys keep using the word value wrong.
Investment carries a hope of appreciation of value. Value is an idea distinct from money.
>>342384631
https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use#section4
>When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
meckchate
>>342384604
Nothing is stopping anyone else from already doing it.
>>342384315
>Pay taxes
>Receive services like hospitals and education and protection by the law
>DONATE on Kickstart
>get jack shit/ a crappy product
>you can't even complain or else you're an entitled bitch according to twitter
>>342384787
>Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.
>>342384379
But if they can't finish it then the Kickstarter gets canned, right?
If the project meets its goal, is finished and I payed the amount required to get the game upon completion then I'm still not entitled to anything?
I know these are dumb questions, I've dealt with Kickstarter all of one time.
>>342384787
Con Man basically just fulfilled that part of the contract with something something and called it a day.
>Hey, they can't sue that way!
>>342384884
>conflates literal value with figurative value
Lol, I think we're done here Mr. Cuck
>>342384884
Don't blame us if you're retarded and don't choose wisely what you invest your money in. There HAVE been successful kickstarter projects.
>>342384884
>donate
>receive a product
JUST
>>342371552
>They absolutely deserve to get their shit pushed in by "investors"
They are not "investors" though.
I have no idea where this notion comes from that if a game comes from kickstarter it should be good, bad games are fucking everywhere and nothing is going to magically turn games from kickstarter into good ones.
Any fan of inafune can dislike the game, but anyone who backed the game and feels somehow robbed is a delusional tard.
>>342384952
He's not wrong. Kickstarter demands that the creator fulfils the donation rewards. They just don't give a fuck about making sure they do
>The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.
If they don't, it's up to the backers to fix it themselves through legal action. Kickstarter gives no shits.
>put money towards project cars
>10 euros became 25 euros
fuck kikestarter
>>342384884
But you might not need any hospitals, education or protection from anything.
You are getting nothing and you are donating money to the state for absoloutely noting ;^)
>>342384787
Not that anon, but who is going to enforce this? Kickstarter is the equivalent of China, a con-man's dream. Great tool for the people that actually want to deliver a product. For the rest of them an even easier tool to gather large sums of money, say you fucked up and run with it, aka China.
>>342384787
Good luck with making those faggots ship you your product.
>>342384983
>>342384952
not defending kickstarter, just showing the other anon that there is something on the website that appears to oblige creators to deliver something.
whether or not that obligation is met is another matter
>>342384884
>gambling = donation if you lose.
This is how retarded are on the internet.
I can do all of the things he wants me to do while still getting mad at hack frauds for squandering my money, though.
>Donate to charity
>Charity fucks up and barely helps anyone
U cant be angry cuz ur not an investor :^)
>>342384884
>it's only an investment if I like what I get in return. If I invested like a retard, let me just call it a donation instead...
>>342385081
>>342385053
>>342385048
>>342385020
You're a bunch of retards who can't even read.
>You're not actually buying something, you're investing in a project!
>Creatives have no obligations to their investors, and if they lied to get your money, don't complain!
>Mighty no 9 is cool, I promise.
>>342384498
>Buying
You buy an apple for $5. You, lose money but you now have an apple that costs 5$ dollars, so no value was lost and no value was gained.
>Investing
You buy an apple for 5$. You don't eat the apple and instead let it rot, hopping that the market for rotten apples will let you resell the apple for $6. You've lost value, but you have hopes of gaining value in the future.
>Kickstarting
>You pay $5 for the promise of an apple. Best case scenario: you get an apple, you break even. Worst case scenario: you don't get an apple and therefore lose $5.
Explain to me how Kickstarting an apple is more similar to investing into an apple, than it is to buying an apple with risk involved.
>>342385336
who said you can't be angry if a charity lies?
>>342381530
The only kickstarter I've ever done is Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2. One did not let me down, I expect 2 will be amazing as well.
Did I just get lucky?
Just treat Kickstarter like a pre-order that might fall through without getting your money back.
That also means not backing all kinds of stupid shit, obviously.
>>342370589
Just like buying a car is an investment lol
>>342385701
Kickstarting something can be very similar to pickpocketing.
So basically he's telling you to never use Kickstarter. Thanks, cucklord!
>>342385093
>a con-man's dream
What do you guys think Inafune's reputation is looking like after this colossal fuck-up?
The same thing will happen to him that happens to anyone else who squanders investment capital. I don't understand why some of you think that using Kickstarter somehow frees developers from being branded as failures and having their professional reputations thrown in the garbage if they screw up.
>>342385505
investing would be more like buying an appleseed. you hope it grows into an apple tree where you can sell lots of apples, but also runs the risk of dying instead. also may require additional work
>>342386325
Yeah, that would've been a better analogy, but I think my point still stands.
Will you niggers fucking stop being so incredibly goddamned retarded already jesus lord almighty
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/invest
This is like 300 posts late but still I can't fucking believe you are still arguing about this crap
>>342386443
you are definitely right on kickstarter != investment
>>342370589
Yes he is. While a person can't expect something good in return for their investment, they can very well bitch about how awful a bad one turned out and saying otherwise makes him a cunt.
>>342386325
An investment would actually be buying some land and a fuck ton of appleseeds to grow an orchard so you can sell apples in the near future and if that shit fails miserably, you sell your land to cut back on your losses. Donating money online is not an investment at all.
>>342386709
you qre just being captious. i was just pointing out how a rotten apple is not really applicable as an investment and does not translate well as an analogy
>>342386463
maybe they invested too much and are butthurt about it, just enjoy the ride man
>>342386998
Correct. We're not being loose in our definitions like some other Anos here.
anything you spend money on with the intention of getting some kind of a return is an investment, but it doesn't have to be a monetary return.
if you give money to a kickstarter in the hopes that it will produce a good game for you to play, that's an investment. buying a mattress that's better for your back is an investment. an oven in which to cook food is an investment.
"value" encompasses more than just hard currency.
>OP cut out the bit where he claimed Kickstarter money is a "donation"
I know it's not a store, or a preorder, but it's not a fucking donation like a charity
>>342387169
Like this faggot over here: >>342387170
>>342370589
it's not an investment, when you're guaranteed not to get your money back
>>342370589
>friend talking retarded shit about MN9 being amazing
>load 20xx
>friend hasnt spoken in 5 hours
>regrets: 0
Kickstarter is for idiots.
early access not much better, but so far only starbound has actually made shit worse than when paid for.
goddamn fuck starbound.
>>342387253
Actually, pre-order is probably the best description of what it actually does.
>>342386709
>there is only one kind of investment
Why do you cunts insist it's such a rigid concept
We're talking about an extra-legal idea that is applied to a variety of situations.
A donation is more strict of a concept because it necessarily means you will never get any semblance of a return whatsoever. Not a shit return, not a small one, it means literally nothing.
Just because it's a stupid and bad investment, doesn't mean the people who give money expect nothing in return
And fucking christ learn what value is and is not
>>342387169
>were not being loose
>with a word that has loose meaning outside of the law
Moron
>give someone money for a product
>product is shit
>DON'T BE MAD YOU INVESTED IN THE PRODUCT
what?
>>342387170
>"value" encompasses more than just hard currency
Completely meaningless statement given the context of K$ investments.
>>342387418
Nope. Pre-order you are guaranteed a product or your money back. Kickstarter you are guaranteed neither.
He's right about Kickstarter. It isn't a store, it's an investment. You wouldn't buy a stock without doing research and assessing the risk of failure, and neither should you back a game.
MN9 is shit and should be called as such though
>>342387418
Pre orders are just a delayed purchase of a specific product
There's nothing specific about a Kickstarter product
why don't we just call it scam?
>>342370589
>hard work in and of itself should be commended
Nah fuck that. It doesn't matter how hard they worked, what matters is the end result. If you work really hard on something and it turns out to be shit, oh well, move the fuck on and try something else, but don't expect a pat on the back because you tried.
>>342387817
No idiot, just because the input is currency doesn't mean the output has to be currency
In theory, he's right. Kickstarter isn't a storefront.
In practice, he's wrong. Mighty Number 9 is more than a bad game, its development is a fucking debacle on all ends. Comcept and Inafune deserve the fire they're getting because they wasted their money on shit that didn't matter trying to make a franchise rather than the game they pitched.
I dunno who he is, but he's astoundingly asshurt to be defending a bunch of con artists like this.
>>342387471
>Everything is an investment if you put your heart to it and believe so!
You fucking ape, we're talking in strict sense here. Kickstart is not an investor site to begin with. It's just the worst kind of pre-order you can actually make. It's a place to donate money to people with projects and that's it. A lot of people don't even get anything back.
>>342370589
Who is he again and why should I care?
>>342387902
>>342387913
You are "per-ordering" the specific rewards, the creator (not kickstarter) has an obligation to deliver.
>>342388084
Ok, friend. If you want to define "feelings and happiness" as value, so be it. But for all intents and purposes buying a 10 dollar game provides you with 10 dollars worth of "feelings and happiness" value.
If you get 20 dollars of "feelings and happiness" value out of it - good for you buddy, just don't brand it as an "investment" based on that fact alone, please.
>>342388125
>a lot of people don't get anything in return
So those are failed investments or donations. That doesn't speak for every project and definitely not for mn9
>were talking in a strict sense
No, you're trying to, but you have nothing by which to base it off of.
>kick starter isn't an investment site
I never claimed it was
>>342388359
If he doesn't want to deliver, he won't. And Kickstart won't do anything about it. If you take actual investment money and do the same, you'll end up in jail in no time.
>>342388562
>If he doesn't want to deliver, he won't
And that's when you can sue.
>>342388359
They have no obligation to deliver. The only obligation they have is to put their best efforts into delivering their rewards.
>>342388359
>Obligation
Obligation to deliver means nothing.
>>342388691
>sue
Based on which legal tender, exactly?
>>342370589
First off
>literal who
Secondly
>kickstarter is not a store front
>EULA states developers must provide a working product w/ deadline and at any time donators may redact their donation before deadline is met. If product is illicit all donators will be reimbursed.
Kickstarter is not actually a crowdfunding service. It's a commission service.
Patreon is crowdfunding. It was created for this purpose because artists can't use kikestarter for neet bucks.
>>342388535
>failed investments
You can't take people's investment money and run away with it. The reason people do it on KS is because the money is considered donations.
>>342388359
>a project can't fail
Not to mention dividends exist in financial investments. Perks and investing are not mutually exclusive
>>342388696
>>342388715
>>342388809
Consumer protection act, unfair business practices - you guys do realize that these lawsuits have already happened, right?
>>342388691
And he'll tell you to fuck off because that money was a DONATION. Have you ever seen a kickstarter go to jail?
>the product is complete, and in the stores, you can pay a price to get it
that's a purchase
>the product is incomplete, is in the stores, you can pay a price to get it
that's an early access purchase
>the product isn't complete, and isn't in the stores, but you can pay a price to get it
that's a preorder
>the products is in early/planning stage, but you can't buy it
that's development/trailers/hype
>the product is in a non-specific state, but you can risk a variable amount of money on the chance to get the product and maybe some other stuff
this is kickstarter videogames
>you can give someone money with both parties expecting nothing in return
this is a donation
>>342370589
He is.
>>342389148
>Kickstarter
>unfair business practices
You mean the same Kickstarer that blatantly states that there are no guarantees on receiving the product you paid for? I don't think so.
>>342389148
>Consumer protection act, etc
And have you seen any of these applied to the various kickstarter projects that already fell through? Save for one which made a couple small journalist headlines.
>>342388436
>I still don't understand how value works
If you purchase something for 10 dollars, you value the purchase at or more than 10 dollars. Yet you are not making money off of it? Hmm, really makes you think doesn't it?
Referring to intangible benefits in a condescending tone doesn't render them nonexistant anon. We are talking about video games here
>>342389371
This. A lot of people here don't understand how shitty KS really is.
>>342389371
No, you don't sue Kickstarter, you sue the content creator.
>>342389427
I can even link you the court decision if you want.
>>342389210
oh and
>the product is in some state where people can hand over money, and if you hand over some money in a specific way, you can get money back based on how well the game sells to everyone else
this is an investment
>>342389537
Sure. link all of them.
>>342389537
>you sue the content creator
Again, based on which legal tender? I'm not saying it doesn't exist.
>>342389371
>The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.
>>342370589
>Pledging to Kickstarter should be seen as an investment
Well yeah, that seems obvio-
>that you're willing to write off
that isn't how investments work
>>342389062
>the reason people do it
is because the retards funding these ventures are stupid and the contract stipulations are laughable
It's not a legal donation and you'd be fucking whats left of your thin sinew of an argument if you start trying to talk legally
>>342389914
>based in which legal tender
Lawsuits aren't based on legal tender
>>342389626
Here's the court decision
http://agportal-s3bucket.s3.amazonaws.com/uploadedfiles/Another/News/Press_Releases/201507221452.pdf
And here's another lawsuit by the FTC
https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/cases/150611chevaliercmpt.pdf
>>342389973
Tell me where on KS says what you're doing is an investment and that you're entitle for a product?
Literally just better than nothing
>>342389491
>you value
Case in point.
Nobody gives a shit what you value it at. If you're applying the term "investment" to K$, you're either:
>a)talking about objectively quantifiable values
>b)talking out of your ass about value that has no real meaning to anyone but you, ie how much fun you're having
So is it a) and you claim that K$ is an investment platform and donating money on it is actually investing, in which case you're incorrect. Or is it b) and you're talking about subjective, sentimental returns that have nothing to do with the discussion about K$ being labeled as an investment platform?
>>342390138
Oh, alright. Would you also consider suing a slot machine for robbing you?
>>342390467
>When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
Kickstarter does not enforce this. It's up to the backers to enforce it.
>The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.
https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use
>>342390872
>the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward.
>they may be subject to legal action by backers.
No fucking shit they can be sued! The terms of use are basically this:
>You have an agreement with a person that was made at this website that may or may not be taken as evidence in a court of law. Good luck to all, now excuse me while I get mine.
That's not how an investment plataform works.
>>342390467
I've tried explaining at length to you retards that investments don't entitle you to anything but protection against fraud
>show my on the website where it says
>Kickstarter can dictate what an investment is and is not
Lol
if you give [money] to somebody and HOPE for SOMETHING in return, resulting at least in part from your capital, it's an investment.
For legal liability, KS does claim that the money going to these ventures are not charity. It's possible that money for SOME projects can be donations for tax purposes, but that damn sure doesn't include MN9
>>342391480
I was just noting that you are, in fact, entitled to everything you pledge for.
>>342391639
You're a genuinely stupid person and I feel sorry for you. Hopefully you're still underage and will educate yourself come University.
>>342370589
>Investors
>shouldn't expect a product or a profit
Investors give money in return for a product that meets their expectations or gives them a profit. Investors dont throw money like their giving to charities.
If the investors dont make a profit or the product is now what was promised and they cant get their money right, damn right their gonna be angry.
Kickstarter isnt a site for investment, its gambling website with the worst kind of human beings on the planet
>>342390692
>you're talking about...a, b
According to what? Your ass?
>nobody cares about what you value
I want talking about what I value. I was talking about what value is, which is an apparently alien concept to you
Your b explanation is way off the mark. Just because the value the investors reap isn't quantifiable doesn't mean it isn't investment you retard.
>and donating is an investment
It depends on the project. Those two ideas are mutually exclusive
>in which case you're incorrect
t. Financial illiterate
>>342390851
What does that have to do with what a lawsuit is based upon?
You do know damages aren't solely monetary right?
>>342391893
Intellectual post
Not understanding something doesn't mean it's wrong anon-kun
Games that cost less than $3.8 million to develop:
>Twisted Metal
>Crash Bandicoot
>Crash Bandicoot 2
>Grim Fandango
>Thief
>Resident Evil 2
>System Shock 2
>Unreal Tournament
>Braid
>Shovel Knight
>Binding of Isaac: Rebirth
>>342390851
Depends.
If the machine has no disclaimer, then yes, you could. You likely won't win though as the casino has more money than you will earn in your entire life.
You could class-action the manufacturer if the "defect" is product-wide. If it's casino-specific, then you can take the casino to court for not reimbursing you.
>>342392337
>Just because the value the investors reap isn't quantifiable doesn't mean it isn't investment
Name one example of quantifiable returns that is relevant to this discussion.
>>342393272
Unquantifiable*
There are 3 kinds of game devs that use KS.
1. Those who have the money, but prefer to let the donators pay for the development cause they are scumbags.
2. Those who legit have no money, but they also have no idea about game development. Those fuckers know that they're gonna fail, but promise great things which makes them scumbags as well.
3. Those who have the talent and experience, but not the money aka the good guys.
They're less than 1%.
tl;dr 99% of KS are scammers that feed on the stupidity of the donators.
>>342393272
A game within the description of the kickstarter
I also reject your premise that subjective, sentimental returns have nothing to do with investment, which is what I was trying to refute
>>342393796
>Shovel Knight
>console versions (Playstation, Xbox) developed without disclaimer to backers
>console versions have exclusive content/features, also without disclaimer to backers
>stretch goal page altered post-deadline
There are no good guys. Just smarter con-artists.
>>342370589
Can't you guys post your bait threads without a one liner that makes you look like a total retard?
I mean, the twitter cap alone already guarantees 300 replies minimum anyway
>>342377130
yeah, the "released on time" condition kills it
Inafune literally conned a slew of assblasted Capcom haters alone and by his word alone. He didn't bother to confirm any talent in his new indie dev team, just himself. The only person that's widely known outside of the dev team is the woman who was just the fucking community manager and didn't even play Megaman games. Inafune himself hasn't done shit for the Megaman series except draw from concepts and he claimed himself as Megaman's creator.
I'm pretty sure everyone who backed knew that shit was going downhill fast after the Dina point but because they were so goddamn desperate for a Megaman successor they just brushed it off and continued pushing people for it. What a shame.
>>342396784
>kills it
http://observer.com/2015/09/three-years-later-kickstarter-scammers-still-holding-onto-1m-without-care-from-ftc/
>it's just some problems we're having guys! You'll get your watches!
>>342397273
No, the problem is that he had a vision entailed in his mind.
The money flew it, and he lost sight of his vision.
>the whole SJW bullshit with that moderator slut lying to Inafune and causing changes backers never signed up for.
JUST
>It's wrong to complain about mediocre products that fail to deliver on the initial promises of the developer
His argument is retarded to begin with without adding free money into the mix.
>>342398240
I still have no idea who that person is.
I can't find anything relevant on google.
He just seems like another rich neet who got his job thanks to friends-and-family and then started projected shit he has no business talking about.
It sickens me how many "Dina"s exist in the video game industry.
Faster California burns to the ground or sinks into the ocean the better.
>>342370589
>should be treated like an investment
>BUT FUCK YOU YOU DON'T MAKE ANY PROFIT BACK
So it isn't an investment is it? Gamers ladies and gentlemen.
>>342371887
People thinking 4 million dollars is a lot of money for making a game is the craziest thing to me.
>/v/ criticizes publishers for worrying about their shareholders who have thousands of dollars invested.
>/v/ chimps out over "investing" $10 3 years ago for a mediocre product.
>>342370589
>an investment
>guaranteed zero return
Kickstarter is a donation. I'm not even bashing the concept, I backed Bloodstained and regret nothing, but Kickstarter is anything but an investment.
The guy is complaining about people talking shit on devs when they don't deliver on shit like rewards for donations and shit.
Here's a question, take away all reward tiers and just have 1 that will get you the game if you donated above that line. How much money would some of these KS's actually gotten?
Kickstarter and devs have pushed these incentives because it's hard to get people to donate larger sums without some motivation, you can't fund games on good will alone.
He's fundamentally not wrong, kickstarter is very upfront, you invest money at your own risk, there is no guarantee the product will turn out good.
That said people have the right to get mad when they get scammed, blantantly lied to and their money seems to be wasted on hiring SJW sluts.
I'm pretty sure if Keji Inafune tried as hard as he could and made good decisions with the money people wouldn't be so butthurt.
Kickstarter has always been an investment platform and people who don't understand the risks of investing in something probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
>>342400442
>>342400246
Read the thread idiots, it's not investment.
>>342400246
I have to agree. It's at your own risk, yes, but sometimes the money is given because of the promises. Those promises in this case had more weight because of who they came from. The double fine shit was the exact same case. It's a slight abuse of your own fandom, and in the end does nothing but hurt the producer.This is why the only thing I ever give towards are creative projects, like music, or stage productions. Something I know will at least get done somewhat competently.
>>342399716
>average human being lucky to see a million dollars in their lifetime
>>4 million dollars isn't a lot of money
>>342370589
>cool folks
wrong
>cool thing
very wrong
>tried their hardest
VERY wrong
>>342399797
You must provide evidence of a working product on Kickstarter to receive funding.
Patreon is donations. You're giving someone neet-bucks to live their dream.
The retard that OP screencapped has no idea what the word investment means, or what constitutes as an investment.
Not sure you do either.
>>342400569
You bet your money in order to get a benefit. In this case a product. If the product is good you spent your money well, if it's shit you lost. It seems like an investment to me.
It's not an "investment" in the finacial sense as you don't get any money back but still an investment by the commonly used sense.
"I invested in a good PC" is a perfectly valid sentence.
>>342400569
It's investment for a different kind of return. Instead of money, you get the game.
>>342401569
"An investment is an asset or item that is purchased with the hope that it will generate income or appreciate in the future. In an economic sense, an investment is the purchase of goods that are not consumed today but are used in the future to create wealth. In finance, an investment is a monetary asset purchased with the idea that the asset will provide income in the future or appreciate and be sold at a higher price."
>>342399716
People who think 4 million is "tight budget" for a fucking cheapass megaman clone is the retardest thing to me.
>>342401715
>>342401653
You guys don't get it. Kickstarter *is* much closer to an online shop than an investment company. Using semantics to get away from this fact is retarded.
>>342401837
Linking the dictionary doesn't mean you understand.
It just means you're a parrot.
>>342402287
>the dictionary
It's not from a dictionary. This is an explanation of the concept. Feel free to continue being wrong.
>>342401653
>>342401715
>>342402195
Anon is right, kickstarter is closer to a pre-order than an investment.
The difference is the product might not happen if not enough people want it, but then you get your money back and all is well.
>>342402195
Correct.
The problem is that the person OP is mocking doesn't understand what an investment is.
>Kickstarter should be seen as an investment
correct statement
>that you're willing to write off there and then
incorrect addendum
An investment that is "written off there and then" is a donation.
There's no point even using the word investment at that point except to employ a pseudo-intellectual semantic fallacy.
>water is wet
>except when it's not
>>342370589
>cool folks to make cool thing
Jesus christ don't tell me that "DO YOU LIKE AWESOME THINGS THAT ARE AWESOME" shit actually has an audience.
>>342402729
Pre-order is an investment you idiot.
You getting your money back is not a difference.
The exception to the rule is when you don't get your money back. That's a legal loophole.
>>342403072
AND KICKSTARTER
IS
A
FUCKING
DONATION
YOU FUCKING BURST COLOSTOMY BAG
>>342403231
>pre-order is an investment
Pre-order is an early purchase, nothing more.
>>342403072
Water isnt wet though, something wet is when is covered in water, water can't be covered by itself
>>342402492
Then why did you quote it?
Choke on a cracker.
I would agree more if Kickstarter itself, and the creators using it, had not used it like a preorder platform themselves. Or at least something that is made to look like it.
That beign said, yeah, as much as I find MN9 mediocre, the schadenfreude on display is way overblown.
Seems like the entitled children who backed the game wanted the staff to work for free on 80 hour weeks to stretch that $4,000,000 as far as possible. Its a bit sad, really.
>>342402729
Don't donate, product doesn't exist. How is that not investment?
If you donate you "invest" in order to get potential benefits from it, the benefit being a product you want to exist. It gets further, if your bet was good, you get the benefit of having a good game to play, if your bet was wrong, you wasted your money. You should stop reasoning in purely financial terms. You can invest in something without necessarly wanting to get money out of it later as you may seek different advantages.
>>342403417
You can't call it donation when you get a product in return, you twat.
>>342403417
It's not, and never has been.
>>342403451
>>342403494
Semantics.
>>342403417
If it was a donation, I would be able to write if off in tax exemption. So, at the very least, my government doesn't recognize it as a donation.
And I think KS has been walking a voluntarily ambiguous line.
Is it too late to get in on this kickstartering scam?
>>342403578
Because it's not my explanation, but one from investment professionals?
Why the buttfrustration over being wrong?
>>342403696
Donate, product exists, you get zero profits. Only the product you bought.
This is not an investment, it's a pre-order. Kickstarter does not appreciate over time.
>>342403895
Nope, there are new scams every week.
>>342403752
>I have no argument so I'll call it semantics
Aight.
>>342370589
No. Not even in the slightest.
1) they are not cool people. They are wage slaves trying to milk you for money
2) it is not an investment. Paying some wage slave to make a game is not an investment. AN investment by definition means that I get more out of it than I put in
3)kikestarter IS a store front.
4) why should we gift money to developers?
5) MN9 is not a cool thing made by cool folks
>>342403906
So you don't understand what you even linked?
Choked on that cracker already, you meme spouting waste of fetus.
>>342404169
>no argument
>using scamstarter
http://nymag.com/selectall/2016/05/this-kickstarter-user-embezzled-enough-money-to-build-a-house.html
LOL
I liked the idea of Kickstarter when the idea was basically allowing crowds to be patrons of the arts.
In a way acting like a semi-democratic process that would allow people that have the cash in aggregate to finance art/craft that wouldn't be made otherwise.
But then that's not exactly how it's been used really.
>>342404184
I'm assuming this is 400 posts of both sides seeming like entitled assholes from this post a...
Wait. Forgot where I was. I'm gonna go have a tea party in /u/
>pay 1 dollar
>receive the possibility to have 8 hours of fun
It's an investment but a shitty one. You're paying to get something back. Just because it's not monetary doesn't mean there isnt a return.
>>342404241
>if I link a professional explanation, that means I don't understand it
Hahahahahahah
I don't know why so many of you bitch about kickstarters being scams. Just don't back anything and let other people do it. I for one love that other people throw their money at them, because I have been able to play some good games as a result. I won't ever back anything and if it dies I don't care, but I like that it's there.
>>342405616
seems he was correct
>>342405218
There isn't. A cheap product, or a product on sale doesn't magically become an investment just because.
>>342370589
>it's an investment!
It's an investment that gets the investors almost NOTHING.
>>342405792
It's like a fun forward contract. If you can't handle the risks then gtfo of fun futures
>>342370589
Why do twitter people use caps lock so much?
>>342406263
Dullards.
>>342371582
They gave.. too bad many manchildren gave money to Keiji
Actually it was good, at least the game came out :)
>using twitter for rants
>millennial baby talk
Not only is what he said wrong but he is wrong as a human being.
I only know one thing:
I would understand if it was unexperienced hip goons making some retarded similgame, but when you can't trust long time professional devs making a clone of a game they themselves once made, something is very wrong about the whole system.
Kickstarter is actually an investment because it's such low people don't consider
When you have 10 million dollar investments, you think about it for months and months and talk to dozens of lawyers
If it's 20 bucks you don't.
You wanted Mighty no 9? there you go
(However they should fix the frame rate issues fucking lazy jap retards)
>>342406374
LOOK AT ME I'M TOTALLY AWARE I'M A DULLARD BUT I'M NOT THO #dullard
>>342406107
What risks?
>>342371436
>Really makes you think.
What did he mean by this?
If MN9 was about a transgender on her way to a Bernie Rally the game would have 10/10 scores even here
that's the reality of 2016
>>342370589
/v/ - idiotic twitter screencaps
>>342406886
Your money and the fun rates moving against you obviously. If it's less fun you overpaid and if it's more fun then you underpaid and good for you
>>342407058
You literally can't talk about videogames though, the moment a videogame thread is made there are two outcomes:
>If is older than a week:
NOSTALGIA FAGGOTS SHIT GAME
>Not even a week after release
SHILLS SHILLS SHILLS SHILLs
PROTIP: anything over $100 rewards is for autistic manchildren, they don't care for the game at all they just want merchandise from the japenese jews.
>>342407271
>your money
Which you get back if it doesn't happen.
>fun rates
This still doesn't make it an investment.
Anything you buy has the potential of being worth the price or not.
Question: Have you paid more than $60 for Mn9?
>Yes?
Then you don't have anything to say here , you belong to a psychiatry hospital.
P
R
O
B
L
E
M
__________ SOLVED
Sure he is.
>PEOPLE WHO TRIED THEIR HARDEST TO PLEASE YOU
If Comcept actually tried, Mighty No. 9 might've been good.
>Most people that complain about MN9 $20 bucks budget title paid 40 obongo's dollars for physical copie of Shovelware Knight
>>342407661
This image only proves that there are so many retarded people on this planet, and I'm talking about those who pledged for that autistic RPG, that is not even worth trying to argue over anything
Those people's brain already died.
Kickstarter is a place for people to give other people money for promises that they don't have to keep.
>>342399716
It's more than enough for the game they were trying to make. Half Genie Hero got less than 1m.
More importantly, 4m is, what, four times as much as they asked for in the first place?
>>342408078
People think that for some reason a japenese cares for someone who gave 20 bucks and lives in Canada smocking weed and masturbating to Justin PM pictures
>>342408103
Releases: PS3, PS4, 360, Xbox One, PC, MAC, Linux, Wii U
That killed the game
>>342407538
There is also significant counter party risk.
Fun rates are a quantifiable measure of fun that can stimulate your endorphins. Don't even argue, I go to purdue
>>342370589
Who is he and why do I care?
>give Juan Carlos 15 bucks to trim my hedges
>also throw in 10 extra so he can buy some new pruning shears
>he said it would take an afternoon
>takes him four weeks
>he spent the money I gave him for pruning shears on gas
>he just ran over my hedges with his pickup
>"Juan Carlos what the shit this isn't what I paid you for"
>"Is better than nothing ese"
>>342373392
Because Yooka-Laylee, Shantae: Half Genie Hero and Bloodstained are actually looking like good games?
>>342370589
>willing to write off
>investment
I could convey how retarded that statement is better if I had a multiple image option.
>>342385062
>but anyone who backed the game and feels somehow robbed is a delusional tard.
>You can't criticize because you put invested money on it.
Do you know how retarded you sounding?
>>342375953
Fuck off, Keiji. No one likes you anymore.
>>342371342
kickstarters are pretty cool outside of the cancerous vidya industry. that world's coolest cooler is pretty neat, and my sister got me a weed cookbook.
![[BAK Hyeong Jun] Sweet Guy.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/d2oxG42.jpg "[BAK Hyeong Jun] Sweet Guy")
