![holytrinity[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ZM3m24p.jpg "holytrinity[1].jpg")
Can a new MMORPG without the holy trinity survive in 2016?
In any group-based RPG they generally have to exist in some form. Damage mitigation (tank), damage dealing (dps) and healing. Support is just a form of aiding in either of the three.
Games that try to abolish the trinity, like GW2, fail to do so because they've simply compressed it into each individual player. There's no getting rid of it, but MMOs need to catch up to the rest of the RPG genre and diversify its execution.
>>342192443
>Can a new MMORPG ... survive in 2016?
Nope
>>342192443
Dragon Quest X is the best selling MMO in Japan without it. If anything, MMO fans are desperate for something new. And MMos are struggling because they won't stop shitting out WoW clones.
24 DPS is the true man's mmo
git gud or go home
Support, you moron.
Also wizards.
>>342192443
How about a buffer?
>>342192443
Path of Exile doesn't have one, and it is a reasonably popular game. *Everyone* is DPS, and some people are support.
If you don't want the trinity then you need to build the mechanics around not having it.
WoW works wonders witht he trinity in it's raid system cause blizz uses everythiung each role can do.
You look at GW2 as said and they fucked it up big time at the start so all you did was zerg.
ARPGS work because everyone is damage there's no healing. either kill them or they kill you.
Look at blade and soul. no healers but the game revolvers aroudn being able to counter or block mobs...... untill you get to the end game bosses that ignore player mechanics cause artifical difficulty. But B&S is more single player than large groups. The mechanics don't support large raids like WoW does.
The trinity works in mmorpgs. It's been proven over and over. You're not going to lose the trinity untill someone makes a breakout game that doesn't use it and is accessable to the casuals and hardcore.
>>342196048
>there's no healing. either kill them or they kill you.
how would something like this work though? person buffs everyone before the fight and is then useless?
It's already been done
PSO2 doesn't really have a healer class
>>342198148
accidental quoting great
You won't convince trinity babbies, so why even care to discuss.
>>342196254
"people"
>>342192443
>he never played EverQuest / II
>>342198407
>30k people remain
sounds like a pretty nice number. What's the problem?
>>342192443
Literally nothing wrong with the holy trinity. It's a great system that encourages a lot of diversity and provides lots of replay value. The only people who hate it are the kiddies that want to only play dps classes, but they suck so they get told to play something else instead. The removal of the trinity solves this problem for them and protects their precious ego, at the expense of the depth of the game.
>>342198487
4chan is the problem. If it doesn't have constantly 6 gorillion players, it's dead.
>>342198613
>encourages a lot of diversity
how so? When you're partitioned into 3 groups, that's it, done. The rest is just flavor
>replay value
in an mmo? I don't get you people
What happens if you remove healing?
>>342199487
literally nothing
only casuals and shitters need a fuckboi healer
>>342199487
the tank fails earlier. They're a damage sponge but rely on refreshing
>>342199656
>>342199487
to clarify, tanks are not designed to take infinite damage. They're designed to not die right away at the biggest hits (unlike dps and healer). So their job is to get the attention of said hits. It will still drain their health within seconds. That's where the healer steps in. tank and healer act as a union.
>>342199487
You balance your game around not having healers.
>>342192443
In 2016? No, the problem is that you have to completely rethink everything that has been tried and true in the MMO genre if you want to get rid of the holy trinity. It would be such a huge risk, and the first iteration of such an attempt is almost certain to end in failure.
>>342193587
>Dragon Quest X is the best selling MMO in Japan without it
Then GIVE IT HERE ALREADY
>>342200070
>you have to completely rethink everything that has been tried and true in the MMO genre
it's been done before
>It would be such a huge risk
woe is them. They want the riches, they got to take the risk
>>342200043
What would we have to change in order to do that? Nerfing enemy damage is the obvious choice, but would that make the game too easy?
Could we add a 100% damage soaking mechanic that makes tanks more effective? Maybe something like timed hits for defense?
>>342199487
Playing Battleground in world of warcraft without healers is a very fast way to lose.
>>342193487
wow is dead. the mmorpg is free again, after 10 years.
>>342200205
>Nerfing enemy damage is the obvious choice
that just lengthens the fights, making it more tedious.
>Could we add a 100% damage soaking mechanic that makes tanks more effective? Maybe something like timed hits for defense?
we could do a lot of shit. As long as you focus on damage dealing and damage taking though, the holy trinity it is. MMOs are a bit of a unique opportunity, in that players are, in theory, creative. Yet they rely on mechanics a bot could perform. Fix that, and you may have something that does not rely on the trinity, because the trinity relies on everybody acting like a bot, going through their predefined motions
>>342200304
>WoW is dead
LUL Why are there so many people playing it then?
>>342192443
The secret world was meant to be free of the trinity.
>>342200205
It depends on what type of MMORPG you want to make.
You can emphasis block/dodge functions.
Potions/healing items.
Life steal traits.
>>342200428
We're talking strictly about combat, right? So what can you do in combat that isn't related at all to damage?
>>342192443
>>342198148
>>342199487
>>342200043
Fucking Guild Wars 2 before they added Raids.
Everyone gets one or two small heals and thats it.
A possibility to do bigger enemys without healing in general would be a valkyre thing, you have a tank, who can hot himself, and than you need several pple, who use CC, so the tank can regenerate his health
>>342192443
I don't know the original GW did right, but right it did.
>>342200692
>We're talking strictly about combat, right?
not necessarily. Part of why the trinity exists is that combat is the primary interaction, so player characters are exclusively built for combat.
>So what can you do in combat that isn't related at all to damage?
environmental manipulation, avoidance, control manipulation
No MMO will ever thrive again because WoW destroyed any potential for innovation. Every fucking MMO has to be a rollercoaster now. God forbid you leave the players to their own fucking devices and figure shit out for themselves once in a while.
That's what made games like SW: Galaxies great. Because if you wanted to use a fucking lightsaber you had to work for it, and those people were fucking targets- just as they should be in an empire dominated galaxy. You don't instantly get your wish fulfillment fantasy of being the biggest badass ever. It actually held weight.
>>342200187
That's why I said in 2016, I think eventually enough good ideas can come up and get polished. Technological advances might make other ideas more viable, its going to take years though.
>>342200894
That's essentially defense, which is a form of reducing damage taken. Specifically, avoiding combat entirely. Unless you're actually talking about farming resources, in which case you need a reason to do that, which is usually to support combat.
So why would you manipulate the environment that has nothing to do with combat?
>>342200973
>SW: Galaxies great. Because if you wanted to use a fucking lightsaber you had to work for it
Work is an understatement. That Jedi unlock system was complete fucking bullshit, but I just equate it to getting a relic in FFXI during 75 cap days.
Actually scratch that, a relic takes way longer than mastering BH and Commando + other shit professions ever did
>DPS (Damage)
what did he mean by this?
>>342200973
can't blame WoW as much as you can blame all the devs that imitate it without thought or care
>>342192443
No, because niggas who can't live with out the trinity will keep forcing it into to games that don't have it or focus on it in the first place, then call the game shit for poor "basic mechanics"
>>342201180
>That's essentially defense
if you say so
>Unless you're actually talking about farming resources
during confrontation?
>So why would you manipulate the environment that has nothing to do with combat?
I didn't say that
nintendo has been wearing this badge for like 10 years
>>342201420
What do you mean then? What exactly is 'environmental manipulation, avoidance, control manipulation'?
>>342200205
Dragon Age Inquisition actually did that, although it is obviously not an MMO (though it kinda plays like one lul).
Basically, Tanks have abilities that absorb a moderate amount of damage through their abilities which generate "Guard", basically "extra" health, but not *all* of it, even against equal-level enemies.
Mages help mitigate damage with a "Barrier", which is basically a shield around party members that absorbs a lot of damage, but it also deteriorates quickly (so you can't just stack it, and have to time it somewhat). They also have a lot of CC abilities to slow/disable enemies to prevent them from attacking you. The game uses *actual* hit boxes for attacks, so enemies being slowed is actually a big deal (you can move out of the way of a huge attack before it hits you).
Rogues have a lot of abilities to avoid damage, by moving or generally not being in the way of the guys swinging the big weapons.
There is healing (in the form of Health Potions), but they only represent a small amount of healing (compared to full health etc.), and they are strictly limited in how many you can have.
The game gets a little degenerate later on (you can stack enchants that add a small amount of Guard *per hit* on your rogues/mages so their reserve health is basically untouched), but the game did a fairly good job with balancing around it. You actually have to take dangerous fights carefully, not just "oh shit, I fucked up gotta play defensive until I heal back up."
>>342201640
using skills of the characters that are not primarily for combat, do not deal any damage, do not heal, and by characters that are naturally squishy. Using them creatively to deal with the given circumstances. I could give you plenty examples and you'd just shoot them down as irrelevant. Placing decoys, destabilizing platforms opponents are on, disconnecting chains in a hurry, picking locks on a timer, while the rest of the group distracts the big bad, there's plenty of options. When's the last time you had to check for climbing skills in an mmo? pickpocketing? fucking smooth-talking the opponent before combat, or anybody else for that matter? It's all part of RPGs, and completely ignored in MMOs. The only things you're left with are dealing damage, taking damage, and applying modifiers to both of them. That's it. With such an extremely simplified RPG, the trinity is all that's viable.
>>342196048
if you're buffing health it's just healing, if you're buffing defense it's just tanking, if you're buffing damage it's just dps.
The problem with trying to remove "the holy trinity" is that it's just the three possible ways of interacting with health points.
DPS takes away the points, tanks prevent them from being lost, and healers give them back.
raising it, lowering it, or preventing a change. Those are the three possible ways of meaningfully interacting with a number. As long as your mmo has combat, and that combat is abstracted with a numeric value for health, then you're going to have the trinity in some way or another.
The whole point of open-world multiplayer RPGs is exploration, freedom, and social interactivity.
Most popular MMOs, such as WoW, have gone completely in the wrong direction by making it almost completely unnecessary to interact with other players, and de-incentivized exploration in favor of the fastest route to the next grindfest.
>>342202447
>Most popular MMOs, such as WoW, have gone completely in the wrong direction by making it almost completely unnecessary to interact with other players
Well, this sounds reasonable, and you are right to an extent. The whole leveling process right now is pretty "on rails" (although the old "fetch quest" #43 style wasn't really better).
That being said, this is largely a reaction to one of the primary problems with its predessor Everquest. It took fucking FOREVER to do *anything*, because everything required a group, and everything required a large group, and because traveling was a pain. Only like two classes out of 20+ could even level solo competently, and it got so much worse once you reached endgame.
Personally, I think Timeless Isle was when a time when they really got it right.
>>342201775
That's mostly what I was talking about for the no-healers thing. Rather than having a dancing health bar, give combatants the ability to handle the damage they receive. If anything, feature healing as a mid-term, out-of-combat mechanic.
>>342202040
So, setting traps, timed battles and non-combat options. Traps are essentially just pre-combat debuffs, which is still combat. Similarly with the timed battles, they're just combat with an alternate win condition. You could even stretch it to have its own form of 'damage', in this case lock-picking speed. Even the smooth-talking could be governed by the Trinity. A smooth-talker (DPS) tries to wear down a stern, resolute character (Tank) with his own ally talking in his ear, bringing the character back to their original mindset (Healing). It all still goes back to the same formula. Maybe in different forms, but the same formula.
>>342192443
A bunch of Japan-only MMOs are doing fine without it. It's only Americunts who think that copying WoW is the only way to MMO.
>>342193587
So theres no tanks, healers and dps?
>>342203171
Mhmmm. My *ideal* trinity is:
Tank (Possibly unnecessary)
*Support (Not just healing)
DPS
The problem with the Trinity is that Healing sucks. Playing support, however, is fun. Watching the person you just supercharged kick ass is a lot more satisfying than just healing them and reacting to fuckups.
>>342203171
>>342203650
Without a healer, give each combatant some way of dealing with damage *themselves*, rather than having one player responsible for everyone's health.
>>342203753
The problem is the more you take away things like healing people, the less it becomes a team effort in that regard and it has to become a team effort in some other way to compensate or it might as well be a single player game.
>>342198148
>there's no healing.
Who said that? Put everybody in charge of their own survival. In normal RPGs healing items are cheap as chips and don't have ridiculous cooldowns. Dedicated healers are not needed.
PSO2 does this well. Everyone has the chance to stock up on heals before a quest, you can carry 35 healing items (10 25%, 10 50%, 10 100%, 5 AOE 50%) so you're rarely in a position where you can't heal, but using the item causes you to stand still and play out an animation so you can't just pop them mindlessly in front of a giant monster or you'll be swatted down and probably killed.
So you get to a safe spot, right? While you're running away you're not generating hate but the people still attacking are. Look at that, tanks just became obsolete as well as healers.
>>342204269
Is PSO2 just like the japanese anime?
>>342203103
Good example, Timeless Isle hit the right balance I feel, as opposed to WoD's outdoors content which mostly became zergy messes that encouraged people to form full 40-man raids to do a quick quest and then immediately disperse.
On the time factor, while vanilla WoW is considered archaic at this point, I think it really did hit or came close to the balance between time investment and appropriate rewards. Modern WoW suffers the problem of a lot of new MMOs in that the average player is able to consume most of the content too quickly and gets bored fast. Yeah, there's always hard modes, but they only really cared about doing the raids in the first place. In a push for accessibility and widening the audience, I think they're losing one of the points that drew people in, even if it was unconsciously doing so. The focus, ironically enough, became even more hardcore, and the content adjusted to that: if reaching endgame is much less challenging, then players are told to do all the hard modes, collect all the battle pets, mounts, etc. This isn't as satisfying or fun for people.
>>342204431
Vanilla was as successful as it was because of one thing, and that is adventure. Everything you did felt big and grand, and no one was bulldogging through because what they were doing NOW was the reason for doing it. The entire experience just felt awesome.
idk how they never figured that out. They took away the west and gave us rail roads. It's fucking boring when you know where you're going, man.
I guess the biggest issue is honestly end game content became the be all end all.
>>342204040
The 'team effort' part is better felt with coordination rather than playing roles. Even an all-DPS squad can feel like a team if everyone striking at the same time has a significant positive effect. Support buffs work toward that, as the 'healer' has to reorganize everyone once the buffs begin to wear off. Similarly, a group of tanks can buff themselves by boosting adjacent tanks' defense as well as their own, essentially creating a wall of armor. And as >>342202040 was trying to suggest, this could have a use beyond straightforward combat, rendering your party incapable of dispatching enemies but invulnerable to the point where you could simply walk through dangerous areas looting chests. It's a team effort without having to rely on the DPS/Tank/Healer setup.
>>342192443
I've never understood the holy trinity. It's basically "hurr durr let's make some status bars" for aggro, health, and damage. If you make different status bars, guess what? now you have different classes that take advantage of them.
>>342204040
Oh, that's bollocks. People will instead focus on group efficiency. Herding monsters together so they can be killed with AOE, that sort of thing. You just have to design the game with ways that make the different classes work well together. Again with the PSO2 examples: technique users can suck all the monsters together allowing other classes to quickly kill them all as easily as if they were killing just one. Rangers can plant a weak point on a monster (even on top of an existing weak point for absurd damage) that all players can hit.
All of these classes can play solo, but they work best when allied with different classes that compensate for their weaknesses.
>>342204364
It's a bit less gay. Just a bit. At least it still has some good gameplay to make up for the poofery.
>>342198798
three groups is more diverse than one blob of damage dealers.
There is nothing wrong with the holy trinity.
It needs to be expanded, not removed.
>>342197979
GW2 doesn't use the trinity and remains the second largest MMO in the west.
No matter how many bandwagon WoW memes you spout, the game is top shelf, this is undeniable.
There's a ton of MMOs without the Trinity what are you smoking
>>342203435
>MMOs
Name please?
>doing fine without it
Also define fine.
>>342205073
>It needs to be expanded, not removed.
Fun game then:
/v/, invent a class. In random fantasy setting, the usual.
>Diviner
A mage sub class which uses skills that avoid a certain amount of incoming hits, melee or magical, because they can see the future. Can cast the future-seeing on allies too, increasing their crit hit rate and increasing evasion/dodge stats, these last 2 stats dont work on tanks.
>>342205550
PvE in GW2 is pretty bad though, at least it was, I haven't played since HoT
>>342192443
>team game
>wants to destroy roles
okay nerd
>>342200304
3mil players isn't a lot compared to TBC/WoTLK era
Mine craft
Why can't MMO's do cool shit like Mesmers in GW1? I don't even really know how to describe them in a complete and compact way.
I guess Eve Online has electronic warfare which is kinda similar.
>Not soloing everything
>Depending on idiotic shitlords to get anything done
Git gud scrubs.
>>342193780
My problem with Vindictus's "Everyones DPS" approach, is that it means that there are characters who are flat out better than another.
I think Its Evie right now who fucking destroyes everyone else.
>>342206143
>soloing in massive multiplayer games
Found the no-friends fag.
>>342206079
Shutdown design is "anti-fun".
>>342205771
>Blood Mage - aka Edgelord
Tank class who had a large health-pool but no armor, and tanked by absorbing a percentage of all the damage delt by a specified person in the party as well as a percentage of his own damage delt.
It'd be vital for this class to be on top of who was dealing the most damage at any given time, while continuing to deal damage himself.
The advantage of this would be a lot of free heals, but perhaps with a twist like the Blood Mage having a very limited mana pool and having to turn his absorption off from time to time.
>>342192443
What's wrong with generally defined roles? Remember Guild Wars 2 and how everyone had a self-heal and self-buffs and shit?
>>342205736
Somebody mentioned DQ10, the one I'm primarily thinking of is PSO2.
>define fine.
COMMERCIALLY SUCCESSFUL.
>>342206329
Nay, it is the constabulary of amusement.
>>342206079
Buffer/Debuffer/Control were at one point in time a very important roles. As much as Tank/Healer/DPS but they were discarded because mechanics are hard.
>>342195625
There is no support. Only healers with special gimmicks.
>>342206345
This reminds me of the berserk class in DA2, what an horrible game but holy shit that class was fun. Light armor tank which drains health from incoming hits and the more shit you hit the more raw power you gain. 10/10 would play again.
I haven't played GW2 in ages so maybe things have changed, but I think it had the right idea for remedying the holy trinity, it just had poor execution. The classes end up way too homogenized, they all tend to build similarly and there was consistently a class stronger than the others for the first year or so.
As for dungeons, it was a crapshoot. Some of them just had you run in there and mash buttons until everything died, but there were a few that made use of interesting mechanics to involve player interaction like that really early run where you need to separate two lovers and handle them separately.
The hard part about removing the holy trinity is keeping player interaction meaningful, making a design where everyone needs to contribute, but strong players can still carry weaker players, without just turning it into a sheer performance game. There're a lot of ways to fuck it up, and getting it right means getting it all right.
>mfw I always wanted to play dragons dogma mmo but cant because I cant read asian runes
>>342206656
>Buffer/Debuffer classes just flat out don't exist in MMOs these days
Just fuck my utility up senpai.
>>342198148
>how would something like this work though? person buffs everyone before the fight and is then useless?
skim through this if you want an example of well done proactive support that doesn't necesseraly rely on direct healing
>https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Protection_Prayers
>>342205789
I would argue MMO PvE in general is utterly unbearable.
Although I always felt the GW2 style to be far and away the least boring.
>>342206192
My problem with Vindictus is that it's dead as fuck in earlier episodes
I mean you cannot get a group to do Keaghan or the fucking dragons and soloing that shit is nigh impossible
>>342193026
>In any group-based RPG they generally have to exist in some form. Damage mitigation (tank), damage dealing (dps) and healing.
source: your ass
>>342206785
Remember when in WoW you actually needed a rogue, mage or hunter to disable 2 of the mobs so they wouldn't murder the tank by pulling the whole group at once?
I'd love to see something akin to combo attack done with your party
Like let's say a mage uses an earthquake esque spell and launches and enemy skyward, then allowing a ranged class to blast them in the air for added damage
>>342193587
>dq11
>no holy trinity
I dropped this game after trial(better than ff11 but still not as good as eq and wow), but did they remove skills from the characters?
Because even on early levels there were dedicated healers and damage takers
I just wish there was another game like City of Heroes where you could pretty much make a team of any composition and you would have success. All Blaster teams could clear out maps with startling speed. Pretty much anyone could take damage. Buffs and debuffs were way more important than healing.
The only reason the trinity worked was cuz of the shitty tab targeting combat that WoW and older MMOs used. Now I don't think any new MMOs besides FFXIV use that kind of thing, so it's possible to go an entire fight without taking any damage by simply dodging in most games. Literally git gud. When this is the case, the game can be left to only an evasion tank and DPS. Or just DPS.
>>342193587
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66GP56tVEKY
This game looks fucking great. Why won't they release it in the west already?
>>342206759
When I first got into GW2 I thought the idea was to let any character fit any of the rolls of the trinity, or become a hybrid of them
as time went on I found out this wasn't the case, you didn't need a tank of any kind at all, neither a healer, or a dispeller or even a buffer
In PvE everybody was just supposed to play damage
>>342207052
It doesn't have to be though, redesigning MMO PvE combat is a challenge, and I don't think it involves removing the holy trinity
People currently are quite obsessed with the idea of rotations, priorities or flowcharts
my opinion is that hitting a target dummy shouldn't be hard, or even tedious
And right now, if you play DPS in WoW it's one of those
Let's think about games that get melee combat in particular done in a satisfying manner, not MMOs, just games
They all only have 2-3 buttons you use to deal damage, and usually none of them are on a cooldown, it's all about survival
Applying one of these combat systems to an MMO will be tricky but I think it can be done
>>342192443
I could see the possibility of an MMO without healers via self-sustaining tanks. Essentially, the current WoW meta-game on crack, where every tank is a DK, monk or paladin.
You can self-sustain by chaining defensive abilities and self-heals, while using cooldowns and bigger mitigation for large hits.
That's basically how playing a DK tank works right now, as healers spend most of their time healing the group when doing mythic content.
The problem with this is that:
a) you need to find something for DPS to do that makes them feel relevant
b) you need to find a way to make tank-stacking unappealing or you get stuff like mythic+ on the current Legion beta, with 1 healer + 4 tanks
c) you need to either account for, or deal with the fact that, there will be a massive lack of tanks, because most people won't want the responsibility and skill-check
The last point is probably the biggest issue. In WoW, they nerfed tanking into the ground for Legion because the majority of raiding tanks were too shit to do mythic content. They just couldn't deal with the bursty damage-spikes and consequently healers couldn't save them either.
>>342207860
>west doesn't like dq
>English speaking players behaved worse than br and slavs in the ff11, so japs players don't want to play with western players too
>>342208127
west is too casual for mmos like DQX
>>342208550
How so?
Gameplay wise pve is more casual than wow and ff14
>>342192443
The Secret World had a system where you had an offensive target AND a defensive target.
Your heal/defense spells would go to the person you had as your defensive target (or you if you didn't have one), and your attacks/debuffs would go to the offensive target.
It had DPS skilltrees that also did healing based on your damage. You could be a dps AND a healer at the same time.
>>342206759
iirc gw2 went back to trinity
>>342206478
>PSO2
>>342206192
>Vindictus
>>>>>"MMOs"
They're standard video games with virtual world lobbies
>>342207957
I like this idea, and while this will cause a disenfranchisement of healers within the game I think there's a way to keep them involved
make healers into damage dealers that don't put out quite as much damage as the regular DPS, and have their heals be used only on occasion, either to top up the tank if they let a hit through or to heal a number of players within an area, perhaps a cone
and to solve your problems
a) DPS already have a roll to make them relevant in most games like WoW
you give them objectives, things to kill or destroy in order to weaken the boss or prevent it from doing significant damage, like breaking chains, climbing larger bosses to attack weak points or even doing things not directly related to combat, like building siege weaponry, jobs that they can perform better than the other roles through movement abilities and easier skill-checks
b) making tank stacking unappealing is easy, and doesn't even require enrage timers
you allow a skilled tank to avoid most/all incoming damage from enemies, this means that there's no reason to bring more than one or two tanks as it creates unnecessary redundancy and causes less room for error for the objectives the DPS are supposed to complete
c) make reviving players easy
being dead sucks
if you can revive players easily it creates room for error on the part of the tank while not giving as much to the healers and DPS, as they have jobs that will go undone if they have to wait to be revived
Give DPS players objectives with tight time constraints in every boss fight and most issues will look after themselves
Obviously these ideas aren't perfect. I'm one person and I cooked these up over the span of 20 minutes
but with a funded development team I think this is a winning formula
>>342192443
The only alive MMO right now does not have have a trinity at all so you tell me. Sagetta.
>>342209278
You're not wrong, I just wish they'd somehow incorporate an open world with action style combat
>>342204809
>and no one was bulldogging through because what they were doing NOW was the reason for doing it.
I remember not liking Crusade much and my friend who wanted to play was all
>the game doesn't start till you hit max level
to which I replied, fuck you.
So many posts and no one has mentioned Monster Hunter Frontier
>>342209406
I love TERA's combat, and it looks nice.
The endgame progression and enchanting shit is complete garbage though.
It has action combat and the holy trinity and it still makes tanking/healing feel fun/satisfying. I just wish the game didn't have such a shit endgame(and poor optimization)
>>342193780
Too bad everything else about Vindictus is shit aside from combat, a real shame
>>342209790
>Monster Hunter Frontier
Can you hunt a monster in a group of 40?
No?
Is it even an MMO?
>>342209848
>aside from combat
It may not be complete shit, but it's down there.
When will the memes end? When will redditards finally leave? When we finally be able to discuss MMOs without 30 "CoD is mai favrit mmo XDDD fable2 is gr8 mmo gais XDDD" posts?
>>342193780
I don't really want to sound like that "NO FUN" guy but I really hate seeing a lot of these absurd costumes in what's supposed to be a fantasy setting
it seems there's always some anachronistic bullshit
It's called Destiny.
>>342200438
Same reason so many people play Facebook games: It's accessible to any retard nowadays and it's a diversion.
>>342209882
It is an mmo and iirc there's a huge monster that you can fight with a party of 10 or 12
>>342210183
It's an mmo just like cod and cod is my favorite mmo xdd
>>342210105
There's nothing "NO FUN" about wanting to see a consistent setting, unlike children who like ugly wacky bullshit everywhere because "references XD".
Though there's a difference between wanting that, and criticising it, to going up to a bunch of children and their play blocks and whacking them out of their hands.
>>342210110
>Destiny
Do you just not understand what MMO means cunt or what?
>>342210390
Nobody does on /v/reddit.
>>342210323
I just want to see a game take itself seriously
Not GRIM DERP serious but give it's setting some actual respect
>>342210390
>picking out Destiny over all the other not-MMOs named in this thread
Let me guess, they get a free pass because they're made by nips
>most "MMOs" are just completely instanced games with lobbies
>The few that aren't are mostly old/dead
>The ones that aren't dead are shit like ff14 which is one of the most bland and formulaic paint by numbers MMOs out there
this genre is dead and it saddens me
Just release TERA 2. Not Blade & Soul or Black Desert or whatever else.
At least then we'd have a new MMO where healing and tanking are the most fun roles and people actually talk to each other.Holy fuck man FFXIV is possibly the worst MMORPG out there for that 'nobody talks' bullshit
>>342211195
I'm not gonna link to everybody you assburned faggot.
Also, learn how a fucking anonymous imageboard works, retard.
>>342211320
>tera
ech
from a gameplay point of view, sure but everything else? no thanks
>>342211320
>Join a dungeon say "Hi how's it going!"
>No answer
>It's fucking dead silence all throughout the dungeon
>Raids are no different
>Certain towns are at least a little better but for the most part no one talks
I swear it's like they're fucking NPCs or something
>>342211320
FFXIV is the first time I've ever been in a raid with 24 people and not a single one of them said anything outside of their macros.
Oh wait, at the start of ST someone said 'Alliance A MT'. I think that counts.
>>342211879
AKA Massively Singleplayer Online games (MSORPGs, etc.)
>>342192443
>blizzard molded
>blizzard popularised
>blizzard mainstreamed
>blizzard shaped
>blizzard capitalised
>blizzard built on
>the best MMO experience that ever existed
>then
>blizzard made the market impossible to enter
>blizzard fucked with the forumla
>blizzard drove it into the ground
>blizzard slowly milked the genre
>blizzard slowly killed the entire genre
all on their own
all with 1 game.
>342211879
>Join a dungeon say "Hi how's it going!"
>No answer
Never happened to me
I guess you lying
>>342211879
if it's not that it's people running around in their underwear
>>342212029
retard
>>342211879
It's all because of the overabundance of instances and reliance on queueing for content.
People queue up to get in, get it over with and then go idle around while they circlejerk with their guild. FF14 is especially bad for this. When I run around the world it feels sterile and empty. You only run into people at fate leveling areas and occasionally someone gathering materials (who is usually afk anyways)
otherwise it's fucking empty outside of cities where people just sit around idling and circlejerking. I remember older pre-wow MMOs you used to find people all over the place, and instances were few and far between so you'd run into people all the time in "dungeons"
It was cool and the worlds felt more alive and interesting. FF14 is the epitome of paying for a single player experience.
Dusk MMORPG doesn't have that, it's a combination of whatever you want to build
What about online Monster Hunter?
The 3 parts of the trinity are basically applied to each individual player and every class can function as DPS, while some classes are more support oriented.
The Tank aspect is miniscule as the main way to avoid damage is by dodging it, and only a few classes can block hits.
>>342212483
I know exactly what you mean, in all my time playing FFXIV it just seems so dead like time itself has just stopped.
I really only see people moving around in starter areas and that's only because they're new at the game and are exploring, while everyone at high level stands around "Idle"-Shire or are out in some field using some macro/program to gather for them.
There's just no sense of "Oh shit all of these people are playing with me!" It's just a sense of "Oh shit I thought you were a NPC"
>>342212029
WoW was the biggest MMO ever, but the genre was still pretty popular even before it. The problem is because they had the name Blizzard and Warcraft attached to it. It's popularity wasn't so much based on it's quality, though at launch it was pretty decent all things considered, but plenty of MMOs had come prior to it and done everything it tried to do better. The main issue is that WoW became so popular that it people took everything from it, not just the bad stuff. MMOs with tons of exploration were replaced by themepark quest grinds. Open world dungeons were replaced with massive amounts of instancing. Blizzard's mistake was they kept streamlining everything too much even beyond that so that their own game just ended up being like a facebook game with graphics.
>>342212679
>online Monster Hunter
I dunno billy, is it an MMORPG? Does it have the qualities that MMORPGs are supposed to have to be MMORPGs?
>>342212045
>Join Archimonde LFR
>Have to wait for a second tank
>So how was your weekend guys?
>Thanks for reminding me how I don't have a dad
>>342212914
The online mode is similar to MMORPG RAIDs, it's like you take that single aspect and make it online, and everything else like farming singleplayer.
I've mentioned it because while its not as big of a game as other MMORPGs, we could use the online fights as comparisons for real RAIDs.
>>342192443
You'll never get rid of the trinity as long as pure combat is the only objective in your raids / dungeons.
If you have to flip a switch surrounded by a horde of invincible enemies in order to turn off the boss's power source so it can't use it's ultra insta-death attack, that requires a completely different skillset to the holy trinity. That requires control, or speed, or distractions, or whatever.
Needs to be Full action like Dark Souls or Devil May Cry
Just DPS and Tanks using evasion and the odd potion.
>>342213137
>The online mode is similar to MMORPG RAIDs
Which are similar to to any co-op game ever.
L4D, MMORPG! LMAO
How are these children unable to make such a simple distinction guys? This is like not being able to put the correct shaped blocks in the correct shaped holes.
It boggles my mind how this happens.
The reason why the holy trinity is so prevalent in MMOs is because it's one of the simplest methods to require teamwork. Which is one of the most important aspects for making an MMO work.
>>342213354
>MMO
>massive multiplayer online
>you play online with a massive playerbase
checks outat least when the servers where still aliveRIP ;_;
>RPG
>role playing game
>different class weapons and armors have different attributes and roles
checks out
>b-but muh leveling! muh grinding! i-it's not a real MMORPG!
If you're unable to transfer the conclusions we can gather from game A over to game B when both games have similarities, you literally failed at what highschool tried to teach you.
If you need everything to be 100% equal in order to draw conclusions, your IQ has to be in the double digits.
>>342213317
This idea seems to be gaining speed, I wouldn't be surprised to see an action MMORPG come out in the years to come
Although a big hurdle is making sure that casters still work
>>342213642
>you play online with a massive playerbase
CoD is an MMO now.
>>342213354
They're legitimately clinically retarded. They're all over /v/, have been since at least 2014. Their appearance built up since 2007's fiasco. Took you long enough to realize all hope is lost in this place.
>>342213642
MMOs need a persistent world that you can run around in and meet everyone else playing the game.
A persistent world has always been a requirement for an MMO. That's where the "Massively" part of "Massively Multiplayer Online" comes from
MonHun does not have this
>>342207158
Have you ever played a group-based rpg anon?
>>342213803
That's an argument, but my whole point was that an online hunt is similar to a raid in an MMO, which is also in it's own contained dungeon, which is why we could draw conclusions from the gameplay style in online Monster Hunter.
>>342213863
Unlike you, we did.
>>342213803
There needs to be an actual game beyond the combat.
Every MMO I played is just solo players level grinding and then raiders min maxing their shit.
Make the game brutally difficult, make 6-man parties the norm; and have a new fourth class -- PURE utility / support / CC / mob control -- that is as important to the group as tanks and healers
Tank / healer / CC / 3 DPS
Mix it up a little
>trinity thread
>no "DPS is only required because of enrage timers so they're shit and not needed" posts
>>342214910
There are ways to make DPS necessary without enrage timers
The bombs in the Iron Reaver are a great example of this, the mechanic isn't necessarily good, but it's a great start
Mmo without battles? As in a no fighting mmo...
>>342215140
the adds in Kilrogg work too. Bad DPS on them WILL wipe you. You can mitigate the effects with good healers and multiple tanks, but bad DPS makes the fight unwinnable
>>342201775
Or you can be a Knight enchanter and solo everything.
>>342205771
So Shulk from Xenoblade Chronicles?
>>342206079
GW2 has Mesmers.
Friendly reminder that CoH was the only game to circumvent the holy trinity successfully.
>Mastermind's using pet armies to generate aggro and tank
>Controllers locking down all enemies so no need to heal
>certain classes debuff enemies so hard they can't/hit do damage
>villain "tank" is squishy but kills shit so fast
>still has classic healer/tank/dps for those that want to play that way
I fucking miss that game.
>>342214858
Everquest had these in the form of classes like Enchanter. They could debuff mobs and were also brought into groups for their CC abilities so tanks could pull mobs in a room without making a massive train that'd murder everyone.
>>342192443
There is literally nothing wrong with the trinity.
>>342196254
PoE is not an MMORPG you dumb cunt.
>>342215640
True, aside from eve, tricksters, mini fighters, mabinogi, puzzle pirates, early wakfu, dofus to some extent, and hundreds of other titles.
>>342198487
There aren't that many "big" MMORPGs around with even 30k players left.
>>342204269
This kind of seems to remove the team aspect, though. My only hardcore raiding experience comes from vanilla/TBC WoW, and the thing I liked best there was that the team had to work somewhat seamlessly in order to succeed. You had the main tank who stuck to the big boss and the off-tanks who took care of possible adds. The DPS had to occasionally restrain themselves in order not to pull aggro, same as the healers. If any part fucked up badly enough, it was game over.
It was infuriating when your dumb ass DPS overaggroed AGAIN, but it was great when you finally downed the boss, because it showed you actually managed to coordinate as a team.
>>342204269
A MMO version of path of exile with a similar potion system could also work, and could make professions like alchemy a lot more interesting too.
>>342192443
not in their current form
you need to remove pure DPS
then you need to give the job of doing DPS to both tanks and healers (healers could be normal damgae dealers that can heal with healing skills being on a cooldown, or bosses not doing insane damage in the first place).
desu it's a problem with MMO technical restrictions. tons of single player games have done challenging boss fights without requiring a trinity (meme game dark souls for example). but those kinds of mechanics aren't possible in mmos because of delay etc. stuff like tera is just a poor excuse at an attempt at something like that.
>>342217380
Why is it that 90% of posts in these threads comes from retards like these who've only ever played wow and now deem themselves foremost experts on the topic of all mmos?
>>342192443
you know the holy trinity originally was a tank, a healer and a puller?
so yes it can
>>342217527
nigga I had 1 year play time locked in dark age of camelot before you were unvirgined - if you have been already.
>>342216668
>This kind of seems to remove the team aspect, though.
What you just described doesn't seem anything like team play to me. Sounds like just 'You have one task unrelated to what everyone else is doing, just don't fuck it up'. You could have the exact same experience in a single player game.
Focusing on a single role is pretty much the exact opposite of what is needed to facilitate good team play.
>>342193026
>mmo doesn't have healing on the fly
>in depth aggro AI
And your argument is discared.
>>342198148
>how would something like this work though?
If buffs are timed to e.g. 2 or 3 minutes. A buffer would need to constantly dodge enemy fire or atleast not get agro'd, while keeping up with keeping everyone buffed.
>>342217380
>tons of single player games have done challenging boss fights without requiring a trinity
i dont know any single player games with boss fights that come even close to the shit you find in wow hc raids.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFPdFSDDCWc
no single player boss fight has this level of complexity and difficulty
>>342218909
This is neo-/v/ everybody. This is what /v/ has become. This is why 4chan is dead.
>>342218498
anybody who played paladin in vanilla wow knows how awful this is
>>342217380
>but those kinds of mechanics aren't possible in mmos because of delay etc.
They are. Several games already have full action mechanics. Now, I don't see that working in a large world with 100s of players in a single instance, but modern MMOs have all the action in small instances anyway. There is no reason a 4 to 12 man instance can't be fully action based, with lag not even being a factor. (Client calculates a hit, server calculates the damage. Worst case scenario is that you keep attacking a dead monster for a little while.)
