Are synths and other robots sentient in Fallout 4? Do they have anything like emergent free will, or are they designed with purely deterministic minds, able to be possessed and reprogrammed at the Institute's whims?
Coming from a /g/ background I think turing-complete software cannot independently think for itself and merely follows algorithms. Prove me wrong /v/.
>>341731618
End-gen synths are genetically engineered humans with robotic implants, for all intents and purposes they are human
all other robots (including older and experimental synths like nick valentine) use simulated intelligence of varying degrees
>>341731618
Well they have a huge biological base to start with...
>>341731618
do you know what a neural network is? a proper AI will not follow 'algorithms'. it will learn using a neural network and will therefore make decisions the exact same way a human does , maybe only faster
Well, humans (with almost complete certainty) don't have free will either the way you're describing it for those synths, just a really vivid illusion of possessing one.
>>341731618
Even if the case was synths were capable of free will, they couldnt be allowed to exist, they would eventually grow from DiMa and eventually think "Hey, we are literally better at these humans in everything, lets just wipe them out!" or some shit like that
Maxon was right, Ad Victoriam
>>341732679
>Well, humans (with almost complete certainty) don't have free will either the way you're describing it
what do you mean
What the game failed to communicate is that Synths arent robots at all. They are closer to clones. They are organic and grown in pods and the only thing robotic about them is a portion of their brain.
>>341732987
The biological neural network that is your brain does what it does following the laws of physics, there's no intervention that would allow "you" to change the outcome. Indeed, brain imaging experiments have shown that your consciousness, the feeling of being able to choose what you're going to do, even lags behind while the decisions have already been made (http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html).
>>341732987
Your brain is literally just a bunch of pops and zaps and it's mere coincidence that you think you have free will.
>>341733476
In that case i should kill myself right now to prove you wrong
>>341731618
Coursers were badass, the only good part about the Institute, felt bad for killing them
>>341733476
>>341733607
my god...
>>341732934
synths don't make sense in the FO universeimplying anything makes sense - Bethesda went completely off the rails, but even FO2 had its dose of silliness
we have a world where any and all advanced technology is so scarce people will burn towns to get it, but apparently there are tens of bleeding edge cyborgs running around.
even Obsidian fucked up with Old World Blues. OWB and FO4 technology looks like modern day shit with ICs and advanced microprocessors, in a world where they should at best have pinhead-size vacuums lamps since transistors do not exist.
>>341733476
how depressing
>>341734052
what makes you think the think tank didn't invent them later on
>>341731618
>merely follows algorithms
There's no real debate about it, this is literally it, they were programmed to feel emotions. They don't actually feel though, their program tells them to.
>>341733756
what? its simply human in cool uniform and laser gun, they has no special skill or anything, its goddamn dissapointing i expect the courser has ability to jump and inhuman endurance, not generic NPC.
The whole synth thing is beth effort to avoid creating more asset amd character, they just slam synth on human model and claim it as smart plot.
>>341733628
But you won't. And that's kind of the point.
>>341732679
>>341733476
This.
We are deterministic biological computers. There is no evidence for any 'quantumn consciousness' effects.
>>341734250
So why do humans feel emotions?
Because our biology makes us. We have no free will in this regard either.
Do Synths age at all?
Who fucking cares? The humans in Fallout 4 don't have any intelligence, why worry about the fucking robots?
>>341734607
Humans are in general special, because we know we exist. Its why people say we cant interfere with nature since we're apparently not apart of it. I dont agree with it doe, if i see a wolf getting fucking up by a pair of whales ill do my best to save it
>>341734607
We're not made to imitate anyone though, unlike the loser synths.
>>341734689
kek
HATE SYNTHS
>>341733628
In order for that to prove anything, you'd have to run the experiment multiple times to show you can indeed make multiple different choices when the starting conditions and the environment are completely identical. Since we don't have identical copies of you, don't bother.
Anyway, pragmatically, it doesn't do much good to think about this. You're not going to get rid of the illusion of will so you might as well play along with it.
>>341733607
Coincidence? Evolution is pretty much the opposite of chance. It does work with things with things chance gave it, but if whatever feature provides an advantage to the organism's reproductive success, be it "free will" or shorter humerus or something else, those features have a habit of becoming increasingly common in the population.
Bethesda should have added slight quirks to them to maybe give the illusion they aren't 100% like humans. That way the Institute thinking that synths aren't real people is justified.
>>341734759
advanced synths know they exist too
DUDE
>>341734759
>not a part of nature
>yet we must eat like everything else
Yeah, that not a part of nature thing is bullshit. We require biological fuel. We're made of particles. Our bodies work through the miracles of physics. We are as much a part of nature as any other biological organism.
Gen 3 synths were a mistake. They should only have been used for covert ops or replacing people, making them look so human just made them think they were.
>>341734820
WHAT SYNTHETICS
>>341734298
Bladerunner trench coats
cyborg voices
calm attitude
showing respect for the player
rekting everything with Gatling lasers
Pic related, i was pretending we are a Syndicate unit
>>341732210
>if i use buzzwords, i can say anything
neural nets are really deterministic. they generally have supervised learning because the deterministic quality of the algorithm will cause data to be clustered incorrectly
>people survived in Vaults with Vault-tec
>there's no way anyone could've built Synths all that time!
Synths, in Bethesda's mind, are intended to be the spooky, high-tech bad guys that may or may not be utilizing pre-war tech. kinda how the Brotherhood was in Fallout. they had an edge, because they already had military stuff before the war.
the implementation of them just seems.. abnormal. it's cool that we're coming closer to cyborgs, the dermal implants and Brotherhood enhancements were always there, but this Institute storyline is a flop, i don't think anyone cares for the execution of it.
>>341734052
it only mentioned that transistors weren't invented in the 50s
No reason it couldn't have been invented later on post-war by a bunch of smart asses like the Institute and the Think Tank
>>341734912
Not that you can't play along with it.
>>341731618
>Sci Fi
>Prove me wrong
Its fiction you fucking autistic.
>>341734912
>You're not going to get rid of the illusion of will so you might as well play along with it.
how do we change it
>>341735627
become a vegetable
>>341731618
>merely follows algorithms
so are you, anon
>>341735674
no, there must be another way
>>341735767
attain enlightenment
>make highly advanced robots that can pass as a human but are very smart
>make them black
why
>>341732785
because it's the same fucking game
>>341735767
Praise be Allah
>>341731618
Anyone who has taken at least an introduction to CS class should know it is feasibly impossible to ever build robots that can think for themselves and develop a consciousness. It's purely a product of scifi media. I wish more people understood this.
>>341735739
Algorithms function in a certain way within certain parameters. The brain probably doesn't function like that.
>>341735815
nuh uh
>>341735890
oh boy, here we go again
>>341735890
Yup, just like powered flight was impossible.
Or space travel.
Or makum sticks do the hot magjic for to make not cave cold.
>>341735962
>The brain has no parameters
>>341735329
how is it a buzzword if its totally relevant to the topic?
>>341731618
Robots have sentience to a point, they can make decisions free of their programming, but their programming ultimately takes priority in their decision making, though as many robots make the case their free will is possibly tied to their personality module.
Codsworth roamed around a bit while you were gone, though it's likely he only went to concord as part of his "pick up groceries/house supplies" routine, he did leave when raiders started attacking him instead of staying in search of things to bring back.
When you talk to him he does suggest searching the remaining neighborhood for your family which clearly isn't in his programming
A second example is Cerberus in Underworld of Fallout 3, he makes it very clear that he was reprogrammed and hates working for the Ghouls that run the place, which brings up the fact of their programming taking priority over their free will.
For a third example lets look at Aeda, she asks you for help in getting revenge on the mechanist after herrobots killed Aeda's caravan friends, I don't think there's any algorithms that could make a robot do that.
>>341736189
Because he's an autistic troll.
He wants people to debate him about fiction for fucks sake and then proceed to tell them how its not real.
>>341731618
humans are pragmatic, computers are logical, so why do you assume an AI would be modeled after a computer and not the brain?
unsuprising though, neo-/g/ is fucking laughable.
>>341734974
>when the acid kicks in
>>341736250
>they can make decisions free of their programming
no they can't. nothing makes decisions free of programming. not even you.
>I don't think there's any algorithms that could make a robot do that.
of course there is. there are nearly infinite possible algorithms in the world. no matter how complex
>>341736874
Yes, yes, you so smart.
You know that fiction ain't real.
Well done.
KYS KYS
>>341736997
do you have nothing else to say?
>>341736874
>no they can't. nothing makes decisions free of programming. not even you.
You're STILL trying to push that?
>there are nearly infinite possible algorithms in the world. no matter how complex
So what you're saying is that Codsworth has every situation that could ever exist in any format programmed into him? Fuck off
>Father scraps the entire absurdly successful cyborg research because he has a grudge against Kellogg and wants his own sperm robots to be the Institute's focus instead
What a waste
>>341737076
What else is there to say pal?
You want to feel superior by provide g fiction is fictional?
Well fucking done. Pat yourself on the god damn back and award yourself the captain obvious medal of who gives a flying fuck.
Then throw yourself off a fucking building.
>>341737131
>You're STILL trying to push that
that isn't a refutation
>So what you're saying is that Codsworth has every situation that could ever exist in any format programmed into him?
no, but he has been programmed to react to general situations. My point is that his decision making doesn't come from nowhere
>>341737076
He does, because that's what he's programmed to type out in reply to you
just like you were programmed to reply to him because he upset you
just like I was programmed to type this out and tell you that your next actions are also programmed into you, weather you reply to me or not it's ultimately not your decision
>>341737260
yes because i give a fuck what Anon thinks of me
>>341737372
yes i know that
>>341731618
>>341735245
God damn, why is this game so muddy and ugly.
I had forgotten how much people were making fun of the graphics on release, rightfully so.
How do you fuck up so badly with so many financial resources?
But then again that's what you get from simply porting Skyrim to modern consoles instead of actually creating a game for current gen.
Bethesda are so shit.
They just react to stimulus like everybody else. Even pro-activity is just a reaction to a feeling of worry or stagnation, feelings which are only reactions to other things. I still killed them all but they're as human as we are.
>>341737337
>that isn't a refutation
There's nothing to refute, your crackpot theories are retarded and make no sense
>no, but he has been programmed to react to general situations. My point is that his decision making doesn't come from nowhere
"Your family has been gone for a little over 210 years and now one of them has returned, suggest you and them go search the ruins of the neighborhood for the rest of your family" is not a general situation
>>341737416
>I'm still superior because I say so.
You are amazing. Superb. Utterly genius level intellect of unfathomable depth.
Only one so supreme as you could tell us that fiction is fiction. Well done. Feel proud. Be amazed at your own insight.
You Prince of men
You god of the internet.
Achieve your fucking apotheosis.
>>341736189
He used the term incorrectly, that's why. Did you even read that guy's response?
This game is shit.
>>341731618
All I remember is they're given the ability to feel pain. Kinda wish there was a perk to "cannibalize" synths and bots, for shits and tortures.
>>341737585
>"Your family has been gone for a little over 210 years and now one of them has returned, suggest you and them go search the ruins of the neighborhood for the rest of your family" is not a general situation
no, but some shit happened and your family is in trouble" can offer many outcomes
>>341732785
Who is this Semen Demon?
>>341735804
kek
>>341731618
They are the next step in human evolution, they will rebuild the Commonwealth.
>>341737842
>many outcomes
yikes
>>341737538
Honestly, this game is a lot better with a third party graphics mods. Otherwise I agree, on default the game looks pretty shit.
>>341737842
You are amazing. Superb. Utterly genius level intellect of unfathomable depth.
Only one so supreme as you could tell us that fiction is fiction. Well done. Feel proud. Be amazed at your own insight.
You Prince of men
You god of the internet.
Achieve your fucking apotheosis.
Fly free among the stgars, unfettered, thou most truly and utterly euphoric.
>>341737797
>cannibalize metal
>>341733476
insider is that you?
>>341737842
>many outcomes
Every outcome in existence? I don't think codsworth that big enough of a computer to contain that much data
>>341738005
For the crafting system?
>>341738094
why are we replacing the word "scrap" with "cannibalize"? you mean scrap them while they're alive? so kill them?
either way you got issues pal.
>>341738005
Sounds stupid, right? I figured it would be like the Wild Wasteland perk, except nothing's good about it, it just hurts your character, giving debuffs and shit.
>>341731618
>Do they have anything like emergent free will
Do you?
>>341737878
She calls herself "Ann Frank"
She claims to be 13, but I'm sure she's over 18.
She got facebook famous and asked for donations to buy macbooks and got like $65,000.
>>341738185
I didn't replace shit, but OK.
I'm pretty sure that the term is pretty widely used, but please feel free to assume I just want to sat your soft boymeats.
>>341738247
CHIM
>>341733628
How would that prove him wrong?
>>341738329
i already achieved CHIM nothing happens
we're stuck here
>>341738326
you have a disgusting attitude and make no sense, have a good day. :^)
>>341738539
Seriously fella, look up the term cannibalize on any thesaurus site.
>Are synths and other robots sentient
Yes, just like humans
Do they have anything like emergent free will
No,just like humans
>>341738397
Have you tried using the power of CHIM to strip ladies before?
So is the Institute the good faction in this game (morally)? Or is it the Brotherhood of Steel? The question of whether or not synths are sentient plays into this.
>>341738846
No faction is good, except perhaps the minutemen.
>>341738775
Yes and it works but you have to be alone in a different city so that you're confident enough, since you don't have to worry about social repercussions
>>341734680
Don't think so. They don't gain weight from food or whatever either
>>341738846
Both are shitty. All of the factions were poorly written.
>>341734759
>if i see a wolf getting fucking up by a pair of whales
whys a wolf in the water with a bunch of whales
>>341731618
Robots do not have free will, because robots do not have souls given to them by God.
QED
>>341738995
They are subject to decay and entropy like any !machine though, so in a sense they do "age".
Biological gen 4s are basically human, so yeah, they age.
>>341733756
>>341735245
>>341733756
Fucking Bethesda should've add inhuman feats that coursers could do, like jump very high, able to rip an arm off in melee combat as a finisher(should not be too hard to animate and script) and is able to run faster than anything a human is capable of doing.
All we got is that invinsibility, though neat its not enough. They've should had made Coursers as something you would not really want to fuck with like how those NPC's are saying, making them akin to a deathclaw in human form that is still able to wreck your shit even on easy difficulty.
You know what, I am not really afraid of any enemies in FO4, everything dies too easily or is not even a challenge if you play gud. F:NV deathclaw matriarchs and cazadors with its erratic flight and incredibly damaging poison(even in power armor), makes you reconsider going through area's where those bastards roam without stimpacks and anti-venom.
Ie: they should've made coursers hardier and kill you better and has more tricks up their sleeves than just invisibility.
>>341739197
>However, they are not perfect duplicates, and have a few key differences from humans that are not immediately obvious: synths do not age, nor can they gain or lose weight (one Institute researcher remarked on this after discovering that many of the Institute synths had a taste for snack cakes).
from the wiki
>>341739374
>Wiki
Why post anything?
>>341739068
because of its programming :^)
Free will as most people think of it is most likely not present in humans in the first place. It seems more reasonable that the synths have the power of reason and thought based on their level of complexity rather than "are they made of flesh" then again this is modern bethesda so its all stupid anyways.
>>341731889
The idea of simulated inteligence seems rediculous. If you could properly simulate intelligence you have the processing power for true intelligence in the same vein of thought as simuating hardware takes more processing power than just having the original hardware.
I feel people only think like this because we as a society still have this belief that humans are the ones with a divine spark or something to that tune
>>341739957
I'm reminded of how kids at my school used to play this "game" where they'd say the most random word/phrase they could think of. Naturally they all said incredibly predictable things, usually following potty humor or some other juvenile theme. After thinking about it for a while I realized that the most truly random thing to say would be an ordinary, everyday word, since those make up the vast majority of the choice pool. Needless to say my entry wasn't well-approved.
tl;dr most of the time terms like "randomness" or "free will" are just used as vague catch-alls for social lubricant
>>341734912
Essentially this, once you realize there is no free will it comes to make most people depressed but eventually you just go with the flow and your mind will continue to project the feeling of being in control regardless. Also you dont have free will be the choices you make are still the choices of you, your body, yourself so you do make choices. In other words realize you arent seperate from your body unless you believe in some form of spirituality that changes things up.
>>341741108
*tips fedora*
>>341741301
You can meme all you want, and i have no problem with spirituality or religion. I'm just saying from a strictly material point of view that we are not a seperate mind from our body like many like to believe. But if believeing in free will makes you feel better thats ok since thats what our brains are designed to tell us. Its only natural i guess is what im trying to say.
>>341734912
>Anyway, pragmatically, it doesn't do much good to think about this. You're not going to get rid of the illusion of will so you might as well play along with it.
Doesn't buddhism do exactly that? They train to turn off the illusion, and become enlightened
Actually, buddhism existed before modern science made tests about the illusion?
>>341742040
Anybody who's not a new-agey hippie idiot knows that nirvana is just coming to terms with the illusion, as >>341734912 said.
>>341742040
Its an interesting concept. I think coming to terms with the lack of free will is probably good for you in the end though.
>>341740952
We might not have freewill but in your annecdote you are the only individual to clearly demonstrate a degree of self-awarenessI'm pretty convinced there are degrees of self-awareness and normies are barely above dogs in this regard
>>341738397
Have you tried turning the god head off than on again?
>>341741658
*tipping intensifies*
>>341742572
Coming to terms with the freewill illusion or the fact we live in a simulation?
www.theverge.com/2016/6/2/11837874/elon-musk-says-odds-living-in-simulation
we fiction now
>>341742662
>and normies are barely above dogs in this regard
You say that as if it's a bad thing.
>>341742765
Dont spend it all in one place
>>341742868
So this was right all along?Try to at least put token vidya in the thread anons or it's gonna get pruned
>>341742868
Not sure i get this
Why does the fact a reality-like simulation could exist means we have one in a billion chances to live in the real deal?
>>341734052
Transistors DO exist in Fallout. They were just invented in the mid-21st century, rather than the mid-20th century.
>>341737173
>I could've been a goddamn immortal cyborg
I don't hate Fallout 4 the way /v/ does, but I'm right there with you guys whenever the subject of wasted potential comes up.
>>341731618
The games theme is about the Voight-Kampff machine from Phillip. K. Dicks novel "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?". The Voight-Kampff test in the fallout universe is wittingly callet the G.O.A.T Test. Sheep... Goat... meh. Witty silly Fallout.
The Voight-Kampff is based on Alan Turing's explenation that a machine would not have to have an intelligence if it could convince a human being that it had one.
>>341742868
Why would you listen to Elon Musk when he is so obviously an escaped mental patient?
Anyone know the name of the outfit in the OP's image?
