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Team Fortress 2
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You are currently reading a thread in /v/ - Video Games

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Anyone still play this?
>>
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unfortunately yes
12k hours and counting
>>
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It's a fun game.
>>
>>341633458
There 40k-50k playing it everyday.
>>
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>>341633717
>12k

I doubt that
>>
>>341633458
Yeah, turn off the mic though
>>
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>>341634328
please fucking kill me
>>
>>341633458
Yeah was playing it earlier.

Glad they nerfed McCree.
>>
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>>341634849
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>>341634849
What the hell anon...
>>
>>341633458
I felt like buying Overwatch on release, so I reinstalled TF2 and played for a week or so, now I don't want Overwatch.
>>
>>341635438
I thought I was the only one who did this
>>
>>341635438
Not a bad strategy. Play a shit game until you get tired of games in general.
You miss out on some good stuff like Overwatch but hey, you save money.
>>
>>341634849

you're either b4nny/some plat or invite player, or you've completely wasted your time
>>
>>341636034
ive never played comp in my entire life, so probably the latter
>>
>>341633458
its the third most played game on steam everyday, so yes
>>
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I've played a lot of TF2, like 800 hours, and I've been playing overwatch for like 2 weeks

TF2 shits on overwatch in terms of gameplay. Big time.
>>
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I tried recently.

I gave up on it after 3 hours of gameplay.

It was boring. Before that I played over 700 hours and left the game around the Mann vs Machine update.

Now I only wait for the comics to come. I kinda wish I had overwatch.
>>
>>341633882
>Overkill killing somethng that is dead.

um?
>>
>>341636410
Goddamn Anon you havw 12k hours while most competetive players at like 5k or so.

Get into competetive, you are bound to be good.
>>
>>341636792
TF2 in it's pure, 2007 form shits on Overwatch.

Since then it's become a buggy, imbalanced, bloated piece of shit full of overpowered preorder weapons and autistic retards.
>>
Really sick of soldier in tf2, needs a total rebalance
>having fun
>some fag goes soldier on other team
>either stock+pocket or blackbox+conch with some lame unusual and really obnoxious cosmetics
>have to stop having fun and switch to soldier too so my team doesn't get its shit pushed in
>end up having hundreds of hours on soldier, next played class only around 100 hours
Please stop
>>
>>341637221
>overpowered preorder weapons
>>
Yes. It's just so....perfect.

I will pour 8,000 hours into a game like TF2, where you don't really "gain" anything by playing, rather than play a MOBA/MMO.
>>
>>341637221
No, you've just got old man syndrome
>>
>>341637315
just pick dinduman and learn to land pipes, problem solved.
>>
>>341633458
not since overwatch dropped. tf2 has sucked since after the first update imo
>>
>>341634849
You realize that you've spent 528 full days playing TF2.

Like, that's over a year of your life, just gone.

Crazy.
>>
>>341637221
>overpowered preorder weapons
Stock is stil lthe best option in most cases.
>>
>>341637548
a year is not that much
>>
>>341637570
One year is not that much overall, especialyl if it's spent on having fun.
>>
>>341637515
I do, I can land pipes almost perfectly, but no hitscan weapon fucks you at a certain distance also soldier can easily take advantage of you on corners
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>>341633458

Haven't played it recently because of Overwatch, but I'll still play it with my friend from time to time, I love my vaccinator.
>>
>>341637595
give some examples.
>>
>>341637746
It's still pretty fucking much mate. That's definitely excessive. I mean, he could've been actually living life in that time.
>>
>>341637791
guess that's true, there's also sniper then.
whenever some rich fag picks soldier and gets his medic butt-buddy to stick to him like glue I always just go sniper and destroy them.

only problem is that sniper is boring as fuck and a completely braindead class to play. there's no winning.
>>
>>341636410

you've literally played almost 2,500 hours more than needed to master playing tf2 and you dont even play comp. what the fuck have you been doing?
>>
>>341638165
Yeah dude, he could've been like, doing laundry, or sitting in a park looking at birds. Instead, he was playing a game and having fun. What a total waste of time.
>>
>>341638087
Almost every character's stock class is the best. That's why TF2 is so good. There's no barriers to hopping in and playing.
>>
>>341634849
Please tell me a good amount of that is idling for items at least
>>
>>341638338
scout included?
>>
>>341638087
Sniper rifle

Medigun

Grenade Launcher

Sticky launcher

Off the top of my head.
>>
>>341638087

not that guy, but off the top of my head

stickybomb launcher
grenade launcher
scattergun
default shotgun for engineer
medigun
butterfly knife
sniper rifle
default rocket launcher
>>
>>341633458
I tried getting back into it and just got bored.
>>
From time to time, very casually.

I wanted vanilla. I wanted the 2008 days before the medic update. Sure there were balance issues and all but at that time I did have some gay old time.
>>
>>341638515

>Scattergun
>Pistol
>Bat

Scout probably the most out of every class.
>>
>>341638087
The only alternate weapons that are generally better than stocks are melee weapons. You'll have to try very hard to find a primary/secondary alt that's better than the stock.
>>
I have about 400 hours and surf maps
>>
>>341638332
Maybe he's actually having fun instead of being a tryhard.
>>
>>341638698
If you're good at getting hits the boston basher is pretty objectively superior to the stock bat.
>>
How is the season going for you guys?

My team is 2-1-1 in open
>>
>>341638698
What about the soda popper and or crit a cola?
Or fish?
>>
I used to have a lot of fun eight years ago. Unplayable since

I HATE GABEN
>>
>>341638925
>soda popper
good one
>fish
bat reskin
>>
/v/ server when?
>>
>>341633458
Yes.
2 million active players in the last two weeks. And growing.
>>
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who /competitive/ here? would go to gold next season but UGC is fucking retarded
>>
I was one of the unlucky fuckers who bought it on launch
I still play it from time to time
>>
>>341637221
>overpowered preorder weapons

Nigga you can get all unique weapons in tf2 for the equivalent of $0.50.
>>
>>341638925
But anon, those weapons are banned!

>>341639176
>highlander
>>
>>341639226

>Australium black box
>Not australium rocket launcher
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>>341639074
>good one

Go on.
I'm curious what other people think of it.
>>
>>341638834
Not it's not.

The bleed is not worth giving up all those occassions when you might land a hit but are not sure.

It's like with Bazaar Bargain- even if you are a master of headshots, the added charge rate is not really worth giving up all those shots where you might miss or bodyshots.
>>
>>341639226
>unlucky

I wish I had been smart enough to get it on launch. It sounds like it used to be a lot of fun.
>>
>>341639406
sacrifices killing ability for utility when other items can do all the utilitarian needs without sacrificing main damage output
>>
>>341639864
interesting.
Has the same damage as the stock doesn't it, but with better reload and rate of fire?
just smaller capacity.
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>tfw no Strange Original
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>>341640013
>just smaller capacity
That's the big negative. Unless you can guarantee getting two point blank shots you can't take out most classes without reloading, and even if you can get those two meatshots, you still can't take out a heavy or overhealed soldier/demo
>>
>>341640638
I see, I see.
I kinda wish the FaN wasn't so trash too, because I like the mobility it grants but it sacrifices so much for it.
>>
>>341638706
>>341638568
rescue ranger is very good in the right hands
and hitman's heatmaker is a straight upgrade
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>>341634849
>12,679 hours
>Almost 5 years playing 8hs per day
>>
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>>341634849
And I thought my 4000+ hours in Dota 2 was embarrassing.
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>>341635438
At this point you couldn't fucking pay me to play any more TF2. I can't even stand to look at it at this point.
>>
>>341639438
The bazaar bargain isn't a good example since it's objectively superior (the downside is -charge rate, but charge rate is useless) to the stock rifle since it still does 150 headshots and after you've stacked up a few kills, it no longer loses headshot stacks on misses, you can take out soldier/heavies with one head shot compared to two
>>
>>341638539
Machina is better than stock Sniper Rifle especially if you have amazing head tracking skill.
>>
>>341641216
>rescue ranger is very good in the right hands
But you give up the shotgun, the best weapon in the game
>hitman's heatmaker is a straight upgrade
minus damage and a special ability that takes away your ability to unscope(basically -awareness for a few seconds)? Yeah, no
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Yep, I still play
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>>341639176
6s steel here. My team was formerly silver but we got forced to downgrade by UGC because we sucked ass against other silver teams. However we've been rolling all of our opponents since the downgrade. It kinda feels like we're sandbagging steel but we don't really have a choice right now.
>>
>>341633458
This game copies over watch so hard. Get off blizzards ip
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Sometimes I don't know whether Overwatch or TF2 is better at creating teams
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>>341642379
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>>341641069
Yeah, the FaN is really situational. I do prefer the Soda Popper to the FaN but the stock scattergun still gives the most consistent success, atleast for me.
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>>341642286

i feel like UGC has no idea what they're doing anymore. valve either needs to make an official league or some one else needs to come in and replace them
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>>341642662
>>341641069
FaN > stock when you're a push wizard
>>
>>341633458
On some occasion, but now I can't do any trading or market selling because of the trade escrow shit and I don't own a smart phone.
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>>341642581
kek
>>
>>341633458
My Laptop can't handle this unoptimised shit no more
>>
>>341641216
>hitman's heatmaker is a straight upgrade
>imfuckingplying
You can't bodyshot any class at full health with it which is a major downside when dealing with good scouts and quick medic pick.

>lel git gud at headshots xD
You should always bodyshot if the conditions allow it solely because of the fact that no matter how gud you get, you can still miss.

In return for that major disadvantage you get +25% charge rate and no situational awarness every 3/6 kills. It's useless. No good snipers stays scoped for a long time.

>>341641548
>The bazaar bargain isn't a good example since it's objectively superior
No it's not, it's one of the major examples why stock weapons tend to be better.

>(the downside is -charge rate, but charge rate is useless)
The fuck, 50% charge rate is a big fucking deal when it's the default state of the weapon, not to mention the charge rate.

What the hell is your point, if charge rate is useless the why do you care about that weapon? The only adavatage it has is charge rate as well.

>it still does 150 headshots and after you've stacked up a few kills, it no longer loses headshot stacks on misses, you can take out soldier/heavies with one head shot compared to two
Do you really think snipers do nothing quickscopes? Get real.

Bazaar Bargain is a downgrade because in competive consistency is what matters.

>>341641742
While more damage on bodyshots is nice, penetration is so situational and inconsistent it's just a gimmick and a non-factor in competetive.

Not being able to shoot unzoomed is terrible since if you don't use SMG (and you sholudn't) this leaves you with no means of defending yourself in tight situations except for melee.

Tracer is even worse since it give your position away and leaves you VERY vulnerable to enemy snipers.

Overall, the stock sniper is the best solely because it has no downsides and is the most consistent.
>>
>>341634849
It's a lot, but remember playtime is also counts when the game is just a tab and you browse instead actually playing.
Especially on tf2, where idle servers are a thing
>>
>>341642493
Autobalance is a neccesary evil. Without it the teams would become even more uneven. It's annoying but it works.
>>
>>341642775
push wizard?
>>
I'd still play it, but most servers that are at least half full are trade servers.
Anyone knows a fun server in Europe that is regularely visited?
>>
>>341643509
No, autobalance in the middle of an ongoing match is cancer.

I don't see anything wrong with a scramble after the match ends though.
>>
>>341643227
>What the hell is your point, if charge rate is useless the why do you care about that weapon?
Charge rate is useless at stock values, you can get off 2 150 headshots before you can fully charge your rifle for a 300 point headshot, on the bazaar bargain at +150% charge rate(5 heads) you can reach 200 point headshots in the time it takes you to aim at a soldiers head
>Do you really think snipers do nothing quickscopes? Get real.
Oh hey a soldier let me just stand here and charge my- oh he's gone
>>
>>341643609
FaN's pushforce.
>>
Classic best weapon in the game
>>
>>341643807
Yes, I get that, but how do you mean?
>>
>>341643227
>bazaar bargain's charge rate
I thought you just said "no-one stays scoped as Sniper for long"?
>>
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>>341633458
>>
>>341634849
how?

It's not THAT fun.
>>
>>341633458
TF2 turned really stale around 2013.
>>
>>341643792
This is still an issue of consistency.

You are not always going to have those 5 heads, I would argue most of the time you are going to be below that.

The thing is your minimal capabilities are more important that your maximal capabilities.

>>341644141
Yes, when talking about focus mode.

It's perfectly acceptable to stay scoped long enough to reach 100% charge rate. Staying scoped for 10 seconds is not.
>>
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post your favorite loadouts

no i don't main medic
>>
I hate FaN and Soda Popper, can't kill multiple people without running around like a retard spending most of your time reloading.
It's only good for pestering people or instant killing low HP classes with the burst damage
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>>341644612
I guess.

>tfw I don't give a shit about unusuals/stranges/killstreaks or any of that
>>
>>341644528
>You are not always going to have those 5 heads
speak for yourself
>The thing is your minimal capabilities are more important that your maximal capabilities.
the minimal capabilities of charge doesn't matter
>>
>>341636954
Overwatch won't fill the whole left behind by TF2.
After less than 20 hours I barely play it. A match here and there but I have yet to spend an entire day or weekend entirely devoted to it like Tf2.
Maybe when Blizzard let's me select a fucking map and game mode.
>>
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Sometimes but I can't be bothered to play anymore when pubs are too easy and comp is pointless because the scene is dying and valve is the laziest fucking developer in the industry.

Why is it every fucking game I play with a lot of potential ends up getting neglected by the developer?
>>
>>341644917
the small team pool really makes playing a chore since half the time i feel obligated to fill in a certain role because half the team instalocks their favorite character which is usually genji/hanzo/widowmaker/tracer
>>
>>341644852
>speak for yourself
You are nto going to be at 5 heads most of the time when playing competitive. Anything works for pubstomping.

>the minimal capabilities of charge doesn't matter
They do. Getting to the 100% charge faster is valueable when you want to bodyshot a scout/medic/superior sniper or headshot an overhealed Heavy/Demo/Soldier.
>>
>>341633458
Quit when hats. Never looked back, never missed it.
>>
>>341644917
You can't fucking pick a map or GAMEMODE? isn't there only like escort the payload and KOTH anyway?

That is retarded as fuck. kind of glad i ignored the OW hype because that is a terrible decision
>>
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>>341644612

>>341637831

I've used the same loadout for years
>>
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>>341644612
reskins are dumb
>>
>>341645394
There is no server browser so yes, you can't pick the map or gamemode (and every map has as much chokepoints as dustbowl)

You can't leave in the middle of the match either or your queue time gets fucked.
>>
>>341644852
>the minimal capabilities of charge doesn't matter
Yeah I sure love that 6.3 seconds of charge when dealing with a scout.
>>
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>>341644612
who iron curtain master race here?
>>
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>>341645554
i realize that now, i got rid of the lament skin a while ago

>mfw i joined a trade server and some guys were asking me how much i'd sell the lament for
>>
WHERES MY TF2 CLASSIC VALVE?
>>
>>341645394

There's Koth, payload, cp, and hybride (cp then payload)

I really wish they would implement a way to have more options of what map/gametype you get, there's just some nights where I don't want to do fucking koth 5 times.
>>
>>341645915
>wanting tf2 classic
classes still aren't balanced with stock nearly an entire fucking decade later.
>>
>>341645915
http://tf2classic.com/
https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Team_Fortress_2_Classic
https://steamcommunity.com/groups/TF2Classic2015
>>
>>341645554
but anon

you use a reskin
>>
>>341646082
>Classic
>New classes
>>
>>341644528
That's fair, I guess I didn't recall the focus mode aspect of the HH exactly. I agree with the general premise that stock is better for P/S weapons.
>>
>>341646189

Not him, but the original is a bit more than a reskin, it has the same stats, but affects the angle of the projectile launched, launches from the center, not the side, it does affect how you hit rockets.
>>
>>341646189
The Original fires at a different angle
>>
>>341646189
Little known fact, the position of your viewmodel actually changes where the projectiles you shoot originate.

With the original rockets shoot out of your torso, which makes pogo jumping easier than with the stock rocket launcher.

The downside is that you can't fire from cornerns as effective as with the stock rl.
>>
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>>341645885
why would you use anything else?
>>
>>341646189
>>341646485
>>341646402
Also, the original's different position of the screen covers less of the screen from the user's perspective. It's a small advantage but increases peripheral vision.
>>
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>>341645554
>helicopter pilot and samurai shit
what the fuck were you thinking son?
>>
>>341646791

My friend just disables viewmodels instead, I never really gave a shit about that, but he does.
>>
>>341646798
I was going for a quake-like look. The shoulderguard is a placeholder until a decent armor cosmetic is released for the Soldier.
>>
>>341635768
heh. At least you tried.
Here, have a pityful (you)
>>
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>>341644612
going for a WW1 look kinda
need to find another cosmetic that fits
>>
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>>341646946
It's difficult to get used too but once you do you can't go back.
fun fact, using viewmodel_fov 0.1 hides your flames, medibeam, and tracers even when you have viewmodels off.
>>
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>>341647170
this is what i went for
>>
>>341647170
>>341647340
>tfw I crafted my proof of purchase away
>>
>>341647450
At least you didn't craft away your Summer Shades

;_;
>>
>>341647262

Yeah, I can understand the benefits of it, it's not like having viewmodels off for a medigun would make anything harder for me, I'd still like to see the beam though.
>>
Is it possible to run a true Vanilla or at least significantly Vanilla server?

I would easily be down for sinking a few hundred hours into the original game again. If I thought that the Xbox version had anyone playing it, I'd even slum and play it with a controller.
>>
>>341647889
>Is it possible to run a true Vanilla or at least significantly Vanilla server?
yes, there are multiple mods to do it but I don't know why you would want too.
>>
>>341647714
takes up too much space IMO even with viewmodel off it's still like 35% of your screen, it's nice to have it off so you can see projectiles and find weak players easier.
>>
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>>341648276

Yeah, at least it's not as big as some of Battleborn's gun models, this one is just stupid.
>>
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HOLY SHIT IT'S HAPPENING

http://www.teamfortress.com/matchmadeinwar/
http://www.teamfortress.com/matchmadeinwar/
http://www.teamfortress.com/matchmadeinwar/
>>
>>341648464
Shit, you got me.
>>
>>341648464
TF2 v TFC OR BUST
>>
I stopped after it went pay2win
>>
>>341648740
>tf2
>pay2win

Are you sure you are talking about the right game?
>>
>>341648040
I'm not the type that bitches about all the hats and everything, but all the nonsense filler content updates slowly wore out my interest in the game. I eventually gambled away $300 worth of stuff and lost (would be worth maybe $40 now) and just quit the game on the spot.

I'm just remembering all the fun I used to have, but there really isn't a reason. The game's kinda dead to me.
>>
>>341648862
you got b8d m8
>>
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>>341644612
I love the combo of the visor and snowsuit. But the Deathkapp is my favorite hat, can't not wear it
>>
>>341645584
I want to know, why do developpers keep making the same mistakes? It's like they can't learn.
>>
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>>341636792
>x game is seven years old and y game has been out for less than a month
Whats your point?

also modern tf2 is shit because of balance issues and, maybe vanilla tf2 is better (I didnt play it back then),
but I doubt its better than overwatch.

HL2 is such a garbage engine, overwatch has so much god damn polish that it makes me drool. Its really cool that you can mod alot of stuff in tf2,
but that barely matters now that most servers run sv_pure or whatever it called.

In terms of the actual game, the fun has worn off for me since I notice the balance issues. Why play as any class in the game and do damage
When soldier and demo have mobility, high health, high splash damage, and more variety in their kits compared to other classes like
demoknight as a whole and the banners? Out of all the bullshit crit deaths in the game, explosive crits are the worst because they do instakill damage even if you are
far away from the projectile. Crit frequency is based on how much damage you do and its disgustingly easy to get a max crit chance when you use spammy splash damage.
Spy is straight up luck based because all teammates spy check their teammates, so there is no point of trying to convince people your a spy; uncloaking and stabbing is much better and
disguises only exist because sentries do. Not a single player is thrown off by disguises after playing for a month. More than half of the unlockable weapons suck and theres a clear meta
of which weapons to use. I think the heavy is the only example of having more than 2 useful primaries, things like the soda popper or the manmelter are just for variety or challenge even though they are ass
TF2 was fun, I enjoyed it alot and I still recommend it for people getting into pc gaming because its fucking free, but there are better options.
>>
>>341637570
>>341634849
>what is idling
>>
>>341648862
>>341648963
>what is the mann co store?
Fucking retards
>>
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>>341649442
>complains about TF2 balance
>praises Overwatch
>>
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>yfw Orange Box on consoles is the only way to play unbastardized TF2
We laughed at their lack of updates once.
>>
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>>341644917
>>341645394
I don't have any sources on this, but I heard somewhere that they're trying to get some sort of ptr system for Overwatch, and that they want to add in a server browser for the game. I saw this either yesterday or today, if that helps.
>>
>>341650167
>wanting to play as airblast-less Pyro or against 6-grenades-that-explode-on-contact-even-when-wall-bouncing Demoman

Yeah, I'll pass.
>>
>>341650167
>tfw backwards compatibility for Orange Box on the bone for a increase of players never
I would love to play original, not retarded TF2 with people playing it again, the servers on the ps3 version were taken down.
>>
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>>341633458
Played it today, last time was more than a year ago but I've been playing TF2 since 2009 and got maybe 500 hours in total, and I simply don't understand how people criticize Overwatch comparing it to TF2 and saying.

Played it on Hightower, my team had 6 snipers and 3 spy's with 11 people total, no one pushed fucking cart, and when team started to lose, they switched teams to play for the winning side. Game is basically garbage flooded with kids who fell for "f2p" with "?" instead of avatars and ponyfags. Well it's free of course, but you need to buy something from in-game store to increase space in your inventory, otherwise you'll run out of it and everything you'll get from random drops will go into trash. Also, you probably can play with deafult guns, but you'll eventually want to get backburner or bow to git gud. It's also kinda laggy and has this autistic vibe of cheap chinese ripoff with rainbows, goofy sounds, hats and cancerous sprays. And it has gun skins and cases that require $2,5 key, but everyone went apeshit when Overwatch got their lootboxes.

I'm not shilling Overwatch, game got me boring even at the beta test, but you guys really need to open your eyes with all this "muh tf2 is free" and shit, game is 9 years old utter garbage, let the kids play their toy, and you stay to yours, no need to scream around how one shitty game is superior to other.
>>
>>341650808
f2p was a mistake, it allowed the worst people to play the game, ruining it.
>>
>>341645885
A shame you have to buy Poker Night in order to get it.
>>
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>>341633458

looking at some of these...and I thought I had a problem


I have been hardcore into Overwatch since release. Didn't even play the beta. 55 hours in so far.
>>
>>341650808
Nobody plays hightower to play the objective man, you picked the worst map to do that. It's team deathmatch.
I also only have like 600 hours, but I own almost all weapons and even have a ton left over to craft cosmetics out of them.
Your only valid point is that most people play bad team comps
>>
>>341650808
>with "?" instead of avatars
What does that show? I always thought that the game couldn't load their profile pics or some shit.
>>
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>>341633458
I try.
Playing on South American servers is suffering.
>>
>>341651047
Sounds like nostalgia, the game's community still acts the same as it always has. Not many people spoke in pubs and many were generally clueless. If you want examples, omfgninja's old spy tutorial videos shows a lot of old player activity. There are clueless and/or shitty players in all games. F2P is just the new throwaway term.

The only real difference is that it doesn't cost money to play and that there weren't a ridiculous amount of hats/weapons added to the game.
>>
>>341650808
Don't mind hightower. The map itself is designed badly, so it only pass as an arena map. Snipers also have an edge there because you can see all over the place and spies kinda counter sniper with the invisibility. My problem with tf2 is that it even though they update it monthy, there is nothing new. It used to be so hype when they released a new weapon and you wanted to get good with it.
>>
>>341651528
? means no avatar, not that it couldn't load. i.e. they probably just made their account, i.e. they're free-to-play.

That said, I roll with no avatar.
>>
>>341634849
I once felt up my cousin while she passed out drunk and even I think this is fucking sad.
>>
>>341653036
On a scale from 1 to 10, how hot was he/she?

This is important.
>>
>>341647540
Anon, you can buy summer shades on the market for like $2
>>
id love an unusual copilot to use on pyro and demo but they're so fucking expensive and hard to come by
limited hats were a mistake
>>
>>341653339
She's a solid 7. Cute features, nice enough tits but her curves from his tits high light her hips. In a word voluptuous. You could feel her up all night and never get bored. Dark hair and pouty lips. Annoying as fuck laugh and may have the attention span of a gold fish. If you like thick toned girls it would go above 8? but I'm related to her. So if you banged the shit out of her and told me I would totally understand why.

Stroke ur shoulder and thats pretty much what her curves feel like.
>>
>>341654597
Her tits*
>>
>>341654494
appearantly some guy that hangs around /tf2g/ snagged all the ones that went on the market alongside his non /tf2g/ friend
he's got 3 and his friend has like 10
i don't go there much though so I'm not sure maybe you'll get lucky there
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