I'll start with the obvious.
>>340882052
What's wrong with SaGa-style stat increases?
>>340883239
>SaGa style
Lol
Its just shit anon
No contest.
>>340883239
Think the fact is is not really explained in the game whatsoever. Also many people weren't down with the hole "can't grind or the game gets harder" idea.
Any game that has random stat distribution and random amount increased, its fucking cancer.
>>340883554
I accumulated 24 lvls during my first oblivion run.
>>340883793
This is why I can't stand Fire Emblem
Games where it would have better without a level-up system
AKA
Dragon's Dogma
>>340881941
>he doesn't max endurance first
>he doesn't have 100 on three attributes at around 15
>>340881941
Old Ultima games. Had to pay gold to have RANDOM stat raises
Oblivions system is SOLID, but nothing in the game actually complements it. The fact that stats also cap at 110 or 120 makes it even worse.
>>340883479
All MMO leveling is awful.
>>340884112
You can't level in EVE though
>>340881941
>>340884394
Hm?
>>340881941
The system was great if you were actually autistic enough to figure it out and make a proper class.
It gave you the possibility to make the game exactly as difficult as you wanted it to be. You could be an omnipotent demigod as early as level 12 or you could totally fuck up and end up so weak that you would die to an imp.
It is unfortunate that the experience of most people was towards the latter.
I still believe that even at it's worst the Morrowind/Oblivion system was better than Skyrims "Level whatever the fuck you want or nothing at all and still be god mode" system.
I prefer RPGs that automatically level up your stats but let you choose the skills you want.
>>340883926
>being extremely easy to cheese makes it a good system
Nah man, Oblivion's system either made the game trivial if you cheesed it, or too hard if you didn't, it was all around terrible.
Better than Skyrim's though.
>>340884416
The only bad thing about it is that you can't see what perks you unlock without looking it up
>>340884394
EVE has the worst leveling. What? It's like 20 years of skill queues.
>>340884884
The problem is that the stat system runs completely opposite to the skill system. The skill leveling has always sucked ass, with some skills leveling exponentially faster than others, and so the only way to get decent stats is to tag things completely against your character in order to curb the growth of stuff you actually use and boost the shit you never use. The level scaling in Oblivion also meant you're already a god at level 1, and can only go down from there no matter what you do. Even getting max stats every level, the game is significantly easier to beat at the minimum level, which would be whatever the lowest daedric artifact to get is I guess.
>>340884416
As seen by how its basically a slightly dumbed down version of the Fallout 1/2 skill set? The core system is good, and the execution is almost good.
But its crippled by the fact the feats are A LOT stronger than the static skill increase.
>>340885037
>Better than Skyrim's though.
Is Skyrim's better than Online's?
Do TES games get bettert the further back you go? Is Arena the best one?
>>340885037
It's not easy to cheese that system, you need to make custom class for it and manage your skill usage equally not underdoing and overdoing it.
>>340883554
t. casuals
>>340881941
I think the thing that was most bullshit about this was the fact that state boosts were determined by what skills you used before level up, and since fucking walking and jumping are skills for some reason speed and endurance would always hog up the level up points.
I know this sounds casual, but really the game should have just distributed stats depending on what skills you used for you, or if it wanted to keep the same system then the points you can put into your chosen stat shouldn't be determined by skill usage.
Or just don't make running/walking a skill. Fuck, isn't that the point of the speed stat?
>>340885897
It's extremely easy to do, mate.
Time consuming, sure, but a toddler could figure that shit out.
Tactis Ogre: Let us Cling Together for PSP had a very dumb leveling system where you had to level up each class Individually and everything is fine until you get a new class and it starts at Lvl 1 and the rest of your party is at lvl 14 which makes it very tedious and annoying having to drop the main campaign to grind a bit to level up you new classes.
It's even more annoying when you are dealing with some dude that was against you and was strong as fuck and then joins you and because he has an unique class you have to level the fucker from lvl 1 too.
Such a fucking dumb thing, why couldn't they just make any new character that joins you have the average level of your party.
Fucking oversights.
>>340881941
I liked the idea, as in you swing a sword around and you get stronger. The way they implemented it though was godawful, as Major Skills actually became a hindrance and you didn't want to put the skills you mostly used in them. Realistic Leveling is my must have mod for Oblivion, it keeps the basic premise while not being retarded.
>>340881941
the problem with oblivion's leveling system was the fact that enemies level up perfectly for combat alone while the player could easily fail to do so. The leveling system wouldn't be an issue if enemies didn't level-up with the player.
>>340886212
Also couple that with individual skills having levels that took eons to progress. Especially weapon and magic skills.
>>340886004
You literally need to consult an external source to have any idea what you're doing.
That is a bad thing.
>>340885801
>Is Arena the best one?
No. Nobody could unironically believe that arena is the best TES game. If they tell you otherwise they are bullshitting.
Some oldfags make a respectable argument for Daggerfall because of it's world size even if it was almost all randomly generated and how many spell effects it had.
But Arena is just shit, total utter dogshit.
>>340886440
This. All enemies and loot being scaled was cancer. It's fine for some enemies, but generic bandits should not have top tier armor or be experts in combat.
>>340886440
Yeah, it actually worked alright in Morrowind due to the limited level scaling but caused problems in Oblivion due to the pretty significant scaling.
>>340881941
Lol you must not be too smart of you dislike the oblivion system
>TRPG
>Healers cant get exp from healing
>You only get exp from dealing killing blows.
Why
>>340881941
I hate games where you can raise individual skill points, because it's basically impossible to know which ones are worth getting without reading a guide.
Okay, great, I have 40 disarming in case I come across any traps. But uh-oh, there are only 6 traps to disarm in the whole game and the last 2 require 80 points in disarming to do it safely. Furthermore you can't see these traps without a healthy investment in perception. Even then you can ignore most of them if you're wearing decent armor and carry antidotes. And the traps that require high disarming can be passed with a speech check which is infinitely more useful throughout the game since it affects your ability to gain extra exp, money, negotiate prices in the shops, recruit party members, and bypass "stealth" sections.
>>340886840
Plenty of reasons to dislike the leveling system in Oblivion.
Either you understand it, and the game becomes piss easy and boring.
Or you don't, in which case the scaling fucks you up completely.
There is no middle ground.
Any game where getting hit to increase defense/health is stupid. Final Fantasy II is a prime example/
>>340886840
>understand it
>to not be gimped have to spend tons of time training skills just for the attribute modifiers every level instead of just playing the game
random stat increases
Y'all should try playing Underrail. Leveling feels significant and there's no useless skills.
>>340886212
That's why you set two armoured, unarmed clerics to punch eachother overnight, then level your main crew off those level 50 dudes.
1 hit = 1 level for a good, long time
>A level is tie to the class
>If you want to try out a new class, you need to start from lv.1
>>340884416
>level 14
>no specialization
my autism level has increased
>>340887350
Or just download a leveling mod. Or open the console and type modpca attribute # to make up for your multipliers
>>340887183
I guess that's fair, but I support rewarding the smarter player.
>>340887350
You must be one of the dumbs
>>340885037
>Better than Skyrim's though
Not really, at least the system in Skyrim was somewhat functional. Oblivion also made most of the attributes redundant because they removed the miss/spellcasting failure system from Morrowind.
>>340885724
The F1 and 2 system had lot of junk and redundant skills. I think it was smart to consolidate small guns and big guns into guns, while putting stuff like rockets launchers into the explosives category. Skill increases beyond a certain point were served no purpose in the original so scaling the limit back to 100 made sense as well.
Only bad part is that it still shares the same problem as the originals of having a lot of useless perks.
>ctrl+F Final Fantasy II
>no result
You desapoint me
>>340887960
>>340887298
>>340885338
you can look at all the perks you havent unlocked yet and see their requirements the first time you're on the perks screen though
>>340887960
We try not to think about it.
>Having to wail on your teammates to get HP
>>340887364
Didn't one of the games in that series also lower stats?
Or was it Class of Heroes if you tried making a high-strength wizard with your starting stat-points
>>340887364
Fucking this, I can' believe it took this long for someone to mention it.
>>340881941
The leveling system was pretty obnoxious, but I really liked the little quotes they had.
"By superhuman effort, you can avoid slipping backwards for a while. But one day, you'll lose a step, or drop a beat, or miss a detail... and you'll be gone forever."
>>340887960
I think FF2's leveling system is sort of a neat idea (what you use is what you get better at), but the implementation was god awful.
Strangely, Skyrim level system is the best.
If ypu want to improve on something, you must try.
>>340887724
>I'm so smart for looking at the wiki and powerleveling in a single player RPG
People actually believe this
>>340888205
Neither are good.
>>340888456
He could have a valid point, if the reason the system was so obtuse is entirely because it tries to be intuitive and just let you play normally.
>>340887960
I think it kinda gets a pass because its old enough that there really wasn't a right way to do things, and I can see why it would be an interesting idea. It's the kinda system that works better with offensive states over defensive
Best leveling systems:
I'll start.
>>340884070
>Oblivions system is SOLID
>If you are a mage and kill things primarily with destruction magic until you level, you will be weaker overall because if the gimped stat increase and the level scaling that does not take that into account.
Oh my god no it is not. Morrowind at least had unlimited trainer useage and much less scaling, so you could compensate for how retarded the system was.
>>340886440
Pretty much this. If they went with the morrowind style of "Everything is somewhere you just have to get to it" and got rid of scaling it would be perfect.
Loot and enemy scaling is the single worst thing a game can have for me. I should be able to get that godlike end game sword at level one. I just have to figure out how to get past the dragon and traps. There should be areas that are far above you and you shouldn't go to at low level and there should be areas that are nothing to you at higher levels.
If I miss a "Clear the bandits" quest from the start of the game and come back 30 levels later the bandits should be NOTHING to me. They should either flee when they see I am superior or should all die in one hit.
FUCK SCALING
>>340888205
The old way had a lot of filler talents that you had to get for somet things, but I did like how you had the option to put your talent points wherever you wanted. Some people move down the tree because you get stronger stuff, but other people can decide to put all their points right at the top because they use those skills/passives more often.
>>340888226
I know Wizardry Online had a thing where you could lose more stats than you gained on level-up.
>>340888334
The thing I don't like about Skyrim is that your levels go up, but most don't make any difference until you actually put skillpoints into them. Sneaking and Lockpicking increase your chance of success but getting heavy armor points on their own doesn't do anything at all.
>>340888226
Class of Heroes punished you for making characters with high bonus points by gimping their growths so in the long run they'd actually be worse.
Dragon's Dogma
>>340887960
>Every Final Fantasy
>>340881941
Japanese games
>party members you don't use don't level up
>>340887680
>spot the retard
found him
>>340889154
This is fine in some games
>>340889154
This is why I am autistic in my commitment to always use the lowest-levelled party members and ensure my party is constantly well rounded
>>340888205
>Previously
Little choice were talents go as cookiecutters exist for a reason. Some of the talents are complete waste for PvE as well.
Only PvP had some leeway to it.
>Now
More situational but still has some "this is the best" parts.
>>340889154
>Party members don't level up when benched
>Party members don't get anything when benched
>Game still continuously splits your group into predetermined parties
>>340889361
>Game punishes you for doing this when you reach endgame
I really hate this shit because I'm just like you.
>>340881941
>party members all start at the same exp level
>one of them gets knocked out the same turn the battle finishes
>no longer equal
and that is why i can't finish any EO games
>>340888456
Choosing to look at a wiki because you can't figure out a game.
You can play a game or have it played for you, pussy
>>340888205
Another prime example of Blizzard "improving" their games... #youthinkthatyouwantbutyoudont
>>340888862
Game ?
>>340889154
>party members your not using auto-level
>the computer has plans it always follows for skills and stats no matter how you've been building them
I think the Elder Scrolls system isn't bad. If you jump around a lot, your acrobatics go up. If you use destruction spells a lot, your destruction goes up. It's intuitive.
However, I think it's really dumb how then you find yourself spamming shit just to up these masteries. Like just spamming a heal spell over and over just to get your restoration stat up even though you're sitting at full health.
>>340888862
>nano-resist
What
>>340889562
>be extremely underlevelled from doing something like this or just not grinding because why should that even be required
>despite being obliterated by each attack thrown your way you win anyway
>>340885801
Daggerfall had the best attribute system, leveling and character creation in the series.
At least you can level up whatever skills you want and savescum your attribute and hp increases in that game.
>>340889154
>party members you don't use don't level up
>all new party members start very underleveled
>force self to use new party members
>they die too quickly, causing me to switch to old party members to complete content
>old party members get all the experience, remaining overleveled
>>340888205
there are more choices on the left, as there are no mandatory choices
Why is it so clunky
How come the game never tells you what anything does
Any particular reason why enemies seem to be hitting me just as much despite leveling up Dodge
I mean, Doomguy becomes a vending machine by the end of the game but still fuck you I want to spend my points into whatever I want.
>>340889723
>However, I think it's really dumb how then you find yourself spamming shit just to up these masteries
What about pulling off something above ordinary using said skills to level it once you reach a point? Like getting two kills while airborne within 5 seconds or some shit would increase agility.
>>340886005
>Or just don't make running/walking a skill. Fuck, isn't that the point of the speed stat?
Yes, all of the Attributes and Skills were redundant, stepping over one another for no reason. That's why Skyrim got rid of all the Attributes and made you statistically stronger through Skills aloneand was better for it.
>>340885801
Online has the worst everything near enough
Leveling is like skyrim (even has the same bar and effect to cash in on that audience) but you get abilities unlocked (you spend points on them and each ability needs a certain skill level in something)
It would be potentially passable if the total of 4 available classes with preset skills didn't exist
>>340889532
fucking ff6
>>340890193
>20 luck
lmaofun fact: the questions at the beginning of the game determine your stat growths
>>340890161
U WOT
>why doesn't the game tell you what anything does
It's all obvious anon.
>>340886440
>The leveling system wouldn't be an issue if enemies didn't level-up with the player.
Or if the game handled scaling more intelligently.
>>340885037
>or too hard if you didn't
Too hard if you:
1. Picked ANY premade class
2. Did level up
>>340886840
>level up only skills you want
>fuck up character attributes related to said skills
Yeah, nah you're a retard and that system was beyond shit.
>>340881941
>The best way to play the game is by never levelling up
>>340890430
I know but they're still random.
>>340887298
Its not stupid, but it can get very stupid if all the shitty poke attacks deals a lot of damage.
And the game is designed around "accidentally" using a few hundred life bars of damage to get enough for a "normal" endgame progression.
>>340881941
Its not so much the leveling system being bad in Oblivion, it is just that enemy level scaling requires min-max leveling to not become gimped.
>>340889532
>tfw level 15 Freya in FFIX disc 3
>>340890296
Wait, it's a TES game where you're limited by classes?
Sounds shit
>>340886913
FFT handled that pretty well. You got XP for everything you did. I think you got extra skill points for doing things related to your class, but I'm not sure.
>>340890430
>questionares at the start deciding anything about your characters
i never liked this, people often just google what's gonna get you what you want anyway
if it affected later events or your character's personality then it'd be better than just messing with stats
>>340882052
It drove me fucking crazy trying to figure out how to do everything right and not fuck up the first time I played this.
But after forcing myself to stop caring, to just play the game without thinking about leveling or stats and just fucking play it, I actually really liked it. It's a total fuck you to minmaxers and people who want to do it "the right way" but it's actually very cool if you just play it without regards to leveling stats and just focus on making tactical decisions. the units feel more like actual people and decisions feel like I'm a commander instead of everything just turning into numbers and math until every battle becomes a forgone conclusion that holds no interest.
>>340888218
>Not using swap magic on goblins
>>340881941
>Oblivion
Numbers aside, the little blurbs of encouragement you get were comfy as fuck
>>340891160
Really? I liked it in Ogre Tactics: March of the Black Queen
>>340887740
I like the perk system in Skyrim it's only problem was that you had not enough perks to invest some of them in gimmick perks.
>>340888205
Right gets stupid once there has been a few expansions adding even more talent points.
Then there is the fact that its possible to min max each tree, making it even more stupid.
Left is a good thing once it gets that stupid. And ONLY when it gets that stupid.
>>340888925
Dogma is fine, sorta. But its possible to stupidly gimp yourself if you play the wrong classes for leveling.
>>340889154
>Party members don't level up on bench
>Its fine because they can still be used as cannon fooder, or the leveling sytem isn't super exponential, meaning the level 1 grunts can do human wave attacks
Based Wesnoth
>>340890919
there are 4 starting classes
sorcerer
dragonknight
nightblade
templar
they all have terribly lore-unfriendly abilities in their 'skill trees' with the sorcerer being the only one that makes an iota of sense
nightblade is a sneak thief archer spellsword (skyrim main character basically)
dragonknight is thematically interesting if not for the fact it belongs in another setting entirely
templar uses "aedric magic" that seems like an attempt to cash in on dark souls-y magical sun spear zeus mode
several other classes were cut before release as well but I'm sure they'd be just as bad
>>340888912
>If I miss a "Clear the bandits" quest from the start of the game and come back 30 levels later the bandits should be NOTHING to me. They should either flee when they see I am superior or should all die in one hit.
You don't think that's boring?
>>340889696
Anarchy Online
Pretty much defunct now but pretty amazing flexibility.
>>340881941
Oblivion was just a shittier version of the GOAT leveling system of pic related.
I really like Divinity: Original Sin and I've had countless hours of fun with it, but the levelling system kinda irritates me a bit at times.
>>340891160
>getting the class you wanted by answering the questions truthfully
>>340888912
Them bandits have been level grinding since the start of the game too anon.
>>340888205
Skilltrees with no hard limit. You start out with 2, one for general skills and the other for your class, and gain more as you specialize/gain different classes.
I kind of hate games like this where skill points are horrifically unbalanced. Look at this garbage where I need to throw 5 whole levels in the garbage and increase the mana cost by 50% for a whopping 8% damage boost in order to unlock Bind Cut.
And then once you get Bind Cut putting levels into that gives you a skill that's always stronger than Break, and then a massive 400% extra damage on bound enemies almost 200% stronger from level 1 to 10.
To unlock both of those you have to incrase sword mastery that improves you damage by an unnoticable 1% each level. And it's not even as bad as skills that give you back flat HP like avenger where your character recovers less HP than extremely cheap/common healing items for a massive 10 point investment and only after one of your party members kicks the bucket.
>>340888205
The nice thing with Legion is that you are only able to change your talents in a Inn or with a costly item. So if you do a dungeon or a raid you will need to make decisions how you want to specialize.
>>340883923
I think it would have been better to just gain a set amount of points to put into any stat you wanted and you can just hoard those stats until you felt like putting something in. This would also make for a good Lv 1 run or better custom playstyle.
>>340883479
>>340884394
>Play a facebook idle game to level up your character's skills
>It's okay when CCP does it
Don't even try to claim otherwise.
>full heal and mp on level up
>always 100xp to level
>30xp whenever you cast a buff
>>340883923
Pawn level up should have been kept.
But player? God no. Nothing is worse than "accidentally" permagimping characters by spending 40 levels on Magick Archers horrible horrible stat growth.
>>340881941
Skyrim's system made me miss OB / MW's systems.
Games where you can swap classes, but they all have different growths, making you think twice before trying new things
Dragon's Dogma, FFTA 1 & 2 come to mind as i replayed them recently
>Want to play the best Robber
>It has shitty growths, so you need to get 30 levels as a Prostitute and 69 as a Hobo
>Game is over, but at least your stats are good
>>340892131
What don't you like about it? You actually get immediate benefits for leveling up, level by using the skill itself, and a lot of skills help give you access to different forms of transportation or the ability to do things without the required items so you have less inventory management to worry about.
>>340892523
Tactics series is even worse thanks to semi-random stat growths and speed being one of the growing stats in an ATB game.
>>340892231
But the difference between the most gimped character and the most minmaxed is pretty much irrelevant compared to gear in Dragon's Dogma. You can minmax if you want, but the gear you wear, the skills you use, and your skill at the game massively outweigh your stat growth. And your overall level outweighs all of that even more, if you're too weak to beat something then a few more levels in ANY class will make the difference.
Stats barely matter, it's the augments, skills and gear that matter in Dogma.
>>340889154
No work, no pay
>>340891819
Don't forget games that don't tell you what leveling a skill actually does.
Etrian games have so many trap skills.
>>340892523
>Play melee classes through Dragon's Dogma
>Go to start NG+
>Find out I have to use the same character
>>340892745
Yep, Speed is indeed the worst thing
I could have forgiven everything if it weren't for the random chance to get speed on level up
Then again, end-game quests give monsters priority turns making speed kind of a joke
>>340888862
God i miss Anarchy online
>>340891439
it's fine in all the final versions of the game where you can start a skill over and refund the perks once it's maxed out. If you're in it for the long haul it's easy enough just to build up your crafting first, make whatever gear you wanted for the rest of the game, and then just refund those skills.
>>340887364
Man my man Ed had great growths>>340887364
>>340892523
This could be easily resolved if the game changed your stats as if you've leveled up as that class the entire time
Then again it would incur in the problem of "level up as easy class, swap to hard class later" or something
>>340891168
Would have been nice if there had been an option to turn on the various progress bars for your character progression, e.g. how far along the way you are to unlocking a weapon style or magic attack and how far along you are to reaching a certain class. On my first playthrough, I didn't even notice that there were class switches, depending on how you level/play the characters.
Real shame, it's not so much the leveling system that's wonky with LR, but the fucking interface that seems to go out of it's way to hide as much as possible from you. The game could have easily become GOTYAY material id they had made the interface a bit more accessible, so you'd actually see cause and effect as you level your dudes. Then, instead of stumbling along like a retard, or piecing together shit with the wiki, you could have endless (fun) hours planning ahead your team setup and how to train them. The overall system was good, but this time the obscurity approach locked away the "fun stuff" for the type of person this game was aimed at.
>>340893281
Literally every system can be easily resolved if the game allowed the player to allocate their own stats
>>340883239
Because if you don't micromanage your skill leveling, then you can fuck yourself over statwise e.g. by leveling alchemy too much in one level and getting a quad bonus on int as a warrior or something.
>>340891223
They actually stop being encouraging and turn very discouraging as you approach level 20, which pissed me off.
>>340892831
Anon, no. Anon, NO.
The difference between gear & stats is VERY significant in Vanilla. Having another 300 attack at level 100 is the difference between a shit weapon doing damage, and being forced to use the Dragon weapons to even do anything.
In BB, things like Framea Blades exists, which has so ungodly base damage that the difference itsn't super big. And they also added Silver and Gold Dragonforging, allowing shit weapons to actually deal base damage.
Remember: Framea Blades start at 870 damage, and ends at 1429.
Rusted Daggers start at 7, and ends at 405.
Having 600 attack on the top of that as Assassin means Rusted can kill enemies. If you play as a Magic class, or one of the mage hybric classes you lose so insane amounts of damage.
That said, DD:DA is a single player game, where everything works properly to some degree. Stat gimping is a non issue, because gear is strong enough. But Vanilla, thats a huge issue.
>>340890984
You did not. And you still got boosted exp for killing people.
TO was atrocious for this. Your witches would end up under leveled as fuck, and you'd have to grind after every battle to keep them from being useless.
>>340891160
>people often just google what's gonna get you what you want anyway
t. underage casuals
>>340888205
Anyone who can't see how the old system was massively superior to the old one is a retard.
Gaining levels in Baroque increases your level.
Your current level has no effect on anything.
>>340894347
old one to the new one** :^]
>>340894351
>Gaining levels in Baroque increases your level.
???
Witcher 3. I mean its all well and good when you level up and add shit to your character, but it aint the levelling up - it is how you need to watch every motherfucking quest's recommended level or you are gonna be gaining shit exp from it.
>>340891635
Oblivion was bad, but it wasn't nearly as shitty as Quest 64's system.
>>340881941
Nah, the Oblivion/Morrowind leveling system is fine. Oblivion's problem is the level scaling, making the game world rapidly outpace you if you only leveled major skills.
>>340894538
Yes.
>>340893543
I think that was kind of the point though, they tried to make it so complicated and esoteric that people would give up and just play the game without minmaxing and trying to allocate every pointing the right place. But they fucked up because the people who play games like this, are going to minmax and stat allocate no matter how difficult you make it, even if they have to waste hours on a wiki and make graphs and shit, but that shit sucks to do so they came away from it thinking "ugh this game sucks" because they wasted their time doing the thing they specifically weren't supposed to do. The game is really fun if you let things happen and make the best decision you can based on the current situation. It becomes and unplayable slog when you try to plan ahead, because the system is so complicated that planning ahead is a nightmare.
They made the classic mistake of thinking they can control how people play their game. instead of people ignoring stats because they're impossibly complicated, they instead focused on them and ruined the game for themselves.
Even I had some serious trouble shifting into the right mindset to play the game. I often caught myself trying to look at the wiki to figure out how to level things right and had to stop myself because it ruins the fun of the game.
>>340894538
Well, it's not wrong.
>>340894351
What was Baroque about? I remember a friend showing it to me, but I didn't get deep enough into it to get it.
>>340887364
True, I can't deal with 3 level ups raising only HP.
>>340886593
Do you mean the game manual?
Any system where some of the benefits of leveling up depends on specific stats. Such as your HP gain per level depending on your endurance stat when you level up. This system always makes that one stat the most important one, regardless of build. I'm surprised devs didn't learn to avoid this two decades ago, since it's so fucking obvious that it doesn't work and only encourages people to play the game in convoluted ways to minmax it.
>>340889154
>dead party members don't get xp
Any WRPG
WRPGs are utter shit
>>340889361
Do that shit in Disgaea 4/5 and you're boned.
>>340895307
>Endurance based health increases are not retroactive, so you need max endurance ASAP.
Another reason oblivion is retarded. All the classes are terrible because of their own system.
>>340894953
Its a simple roguelike, you go down a short dungeon lots of times resetting every so often.
>>340894657
Don't you dare, I love that game.
>>340890146
What's wrong with it?
>>340894235
> tfw spent literally tens of hours on jagged alliance doing 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2 then 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,1 trying to figure out what changes what and how.
i fucking wish i had google.
>2 magic stats for an MC that cant learn magic
>one of them is actually extremely important but you wouldnt know unless you saw a 3 word blurb in the instructions
>the other effects your resistance to magic
>>340895491
Explain
>>340895981
You're free to love what you want. But I can't find any redeeming quality about the game. It was one of the first n64 games I ever played, and even back then I knew it was trash.
A shame, though. I really, really wanted to like that game. I love being a wizard.
>>340896667
They force me to make decisions when I level up, I just want to press X and have stats given to me so I can get on back to grinding
>>340896645
What is Shin Megami Tensei?
>>340889709
>get to someone too late in Baldur's Gate
>the character levels up to scale
>picks retarded proficiencies that make no sense
>have terrible HP rolls
>>340895307
>Such as your HP gain per level depending on your endurance stat when you level up.
Thats almost like....
Diablo
Diablo II
Path of Exile(life nodes)
etc
>>340891449
>using the all-star team you've built up by the end of HttT
Is anything more satisfying?
>>340897037
I could recognize it's faults but somehow it never stopped me from enjoying the shit out of it. The fact that you had to aim your attacks and that each attack had a different range and use was so awesome, and the way you leveled each magic as you used it was cool because it made your favorite magic the best magic eventually, but then it also unlocked combo spells with the other magics which made me want to level the other ones up too to get more spells. And it's not nostalgia goggles either, I replayed it a year ago and it still kicked just as much ass.
It's such a primitive silly game but I honestly think it's leveling system was fucking awesome, at least for the time. I've never played an rpg since that pulled off it's level system as well. All the "it levels as you use it" ones don't tie in well enough to the actual gameplay and either I end up ignoring them completely or using it to minmax.
>>340897189
What about Dragon Quest VIII?
You get stats automatically when leveling up but you also get points you can spend in different abilities.
Other JRPG also have a leveling system you have to manage outside of combat, like jobs or magicite
>>340889761
it's Spell Resist
Spells were called nanos in AO
>>340895307
>>340895862
That actually makes sense, unlike retroactive HP increases. If you train and improve your endurance right now, your past self doesn't suddenly become more hardy, does it?
>>340883239
You have to jump through hoops to optimize leveling and they never really explain it.
>>340898853
>If you train and improve your endurance right now, your past self doesn't suddenly become more hardy, does it?
Your resistance to pain is based on your experience with pain, and your amount of pain ignoring chemicals.
If your heart is a thundercloud, your lungs are the sky, and your body big enough, you got tons of chemicals to be hardcore.
Non Retroactive HP increase is generally a stupid game decision because it forces you to spec hard into Endurance early.
>>340897403
I'm thinking Soul Hackers myself. There's armors you can't wear without a high enough magic stat.
>>340899812
It doesn't force you into anything. Minmaxing like a motherfucker is your choice.
Also
>he doesn't build glass cannons or agility tanks
>>340887364
>+1 hp on fire emblem
>>340898264
It's awesome if you can enjoy that game. I just didn't feel much of a payoff. I loved making my character stronger with magic and anticipated learning the next spells... but the spells were never that interesting, nor was the weak story or bland characters. The battle SYSTEM was fantastic, and that's one of the things that kept me playing through to the end, but the battles themselves were just a mess.
But that much is just my opinion. I can't think of a redeeming thing about the leveling system other than it was the first of its kind and that was a good idea. The way it as executed made grinding more of a chore than it usually is.
If they would have eschewed the strength and agility stats and focused on HP and magic, it could have been better... but they also could have found a way to let you max out all the elements as well. If you're able to slog through it without grinding, then I can see the merit, but I ended up using the system to minmax as a kid because I didn't like leveling things unevenly.
I want them to remake the game. The last game that I heard you could play as an awesome, elemental wizard was Lichdome: Battlemage, and... well, that game was worse as a whole. At least Quest 64 is decently playable, despite the unbalanced stat and magic leveling.
>>340883923
Nah, what dragons dogma needed was to allow you to equip all skills at once. This selection shit was bullshit, especially for the great sword.
>>340901308
Depends.
Some games allow leeway for HP. Where more HP = different play style
Some games are bad about it, where some stats are severely more important than others. I.E Speed & Endurance in Elder Scrolls.
I don't think I have played a game where magic pool is non retroactive, but there is most likely games out there for it. But its a non issue if its well designed.
>>340902118
I guess after a certain point it would make sense if you mastered all skills and got to max level.Then you'd have to lug around all sorts of shit just to switch on the fly and no one has time for that.
>>340902458
It's not about "switching" on the fly, it's about being able to do more than just 3 fucking moves.
MANY MANY games have allowed you to do this anon. Literally any action game worth a play has like 20 times the amount of moveset as that game, and doesn't require switching on the fly.
>>340887364
I actually don't mind this one. It encourages you to focus on different characters each run depending on who gets the better stats. I've used characters I never would have considered just because they rolled like gods.
>>340901686
yeah, pretty much how I feel now. It's main flaws were that it was such an early game that there just wasn't enough you could put in it, if they remade it today with more and better spells, more enemies, actual quests instead of a single awkward one, it could be so good.
Like, all it's flaws are the mistakes that the first game of it's kind would make, and that future games should look back on and improve.
>>340890919
There are a bunch of "skill lines" like 2-handed, Bow, etc. but there are also ones corresponding to mage and fighter guilds, vampirism, all sorts of random shit. Each class gets 3 skill lines the other classes don't get, but each everybody can use everything else. The universal non-weapon skills are largely worthless, though.
It's sort of the worst of both worlds because you get the limitations of a class-based system for certain roles and builds, but every character feels the same in actual gameplay since a lot of what you're using is going to be weapon skills. The difference between a sorcerer mage and a templar mage are the templar gets more heals and the sorceror gets a daedra pet. The rest are all destruction staff spells and class-based damage spells that pretty much just look different.
>>340903238
Oh that's what you meant. I thought you were talking about using all the skills across the classes. That's a simple fix then. Set more button combinations for the rest of the skills or put them on a wheel.
>>340898853
>increase STR
>immediately get stronger
>increase INT
>immediately get smarter
>increase AGI
>immediately get nimbler
>increase END
>too bad faggot, it would make no sense to improve your HP now
It only makes sense in the context that the system is made by some retard trying to ape D&D, so of course he would copy all the superficial shit without any thought on how it affects the videogame.
>>340903898
>using all the skills across the classes
Whoa jesus no. Not at all.
Time to talk about best
Picrelated, its best
>>340890710
>>340887298
The game is designed around levelling magic
you can skip the whole attack self to raise defence/health thing as long as you have enough high level magic attacks
yeah the system was dumb but what was dumber was the game let you think using weapon skills was viable; it's not. Only magic can really win the game
>>340881941
Fire emblem
>>340889154
>party members you don't use level up hilariously faster than the ones you use, especially when it comes to skills
Fucking Silent Storm
>>340903917
I thought D&D retroactively increased your HP if you raised your Constitution.
>>340889154
>Non purchased party members level up alongside the main story
>They even level skills and get more skills
>They get no skills if you actually purchase them
>>340903917
D&D gives you retroactive health for CON increases, and has since 2nd edition if I remember right.
>>340883923
I think most rpg should stop with leveling Its already outdated as fuck. Games like witcher, dragon age or final fantasy would be much better without it
I think leveling up only giving stat increases is a flawed concept. I want a challenging game, but I also want to be rewarded for the time dedicated to going the extra mile. I don't want that reward to be making the next area extremely easy (Borderlands).
New and interesting abilities/spells to work towards can make leveling exciting. Making those interesting abilities/spells unusable or worthless on most content is not (Bio in FFX).
>Ability 1 → Ability 2 → Ability 3 → Victory
This should work very effectively on certain monsters, or in certain situations, but it should do little against others.
>Ability 3 → Victory
Spamming the newest unlocks and ignoring Ability 1 & 2 is a boring style system. "Unlock new, disregard old."
The concept of "Less is more" goes a long way in video games. Finding secrets and getting yourself and item, or an ability with "1HP regen" is a lot more exciting in a game with very scarce HP regen than finding a "+650 HP regen" where "+620 HP regen" is the norm. Hidden unlocks in Trine did a very good job of making the secrets worthwhile. Not gamebreaking, but it's something you'd want to have. Paper Mario did a very good job of keeping numbers small. Doing 3 damage should mean something. It's not fun doing 87,684 to 94,955 per hit, and then grinding to strive for 99,999 per hit. Those numbers are too intangible.
>>340886719
>arena is shit
no its not, its actually pretty fun. not as good as the others, but still fun.
>>340889154
Screw that, the worst is HAVING to bench party members.
The fuck are they doing? Just sitting back and chilling? If they're not running errands elsewhere they should be fighting too.
>>340904779
>tag skills rather than put points into them
>decide actual point values for the main stats which effect the rest
Best way to do it, Simple and easy
>>340907378
Worst part of Radiant Dawn
>there are characters who are available for all of five maps, some of which have 10-map gaps between them
>>340906621
Some D&D games do.
Some don't.
Some have you roll for health on level up, where Constitution gives you larger dice.
>>340886719
>But Arena is just shit
Arena is STYLISH. And what it do right it do quite right in a fun way.
But its not super amazing
Daggerfall is a improvement in every single way, but that doesn't mean a lot by itself.
Oblivion leveling isn't good, but I love the little messages you get with each level gained.
>>340903917
But D&D does have retroactive HP bonuses from CON increasing. But that's besides the point, which is that you do get HP improvements as well, even if you don't get a retroactive boost. The same way that you can now carry more shit if you increase STR, you'll be getting more HP from now on if you increase CON. This should include the current level, of course, so you'd get an immediate boost by the amount of +HP that has increased due to extra CON.
The thing with HP/MP is that they work differently from other derived stats, in that they build gradually, unlike say carry weight or magic resistance, which are derived from your current stats at any given moment, regardless of past stat fluctuations.
>>340908592
Constitution simply adds to your health in the current edition, with the size of the dice rolled is based on your class.
We're talking about the core rules here anon, not your fantasies.
>>340906621
>>340906253
I think that's how it's been since AD&D. AD&D videogames, at least, usually adjust your HP if you increase Con.
The only game I know that doesn't increase your HP if you raise the stat that does that is Fallout, and it copied GURPS instead of D&D.
>>340909276
At least until you reach level 18 or so.
>>340908592
I'm referring to tabletop you dork.
>>340891168
I simply loved the fact that you had to challenge yourself by "linking" multiple enemies in order to actually become more powerful. It doesn't make sense for your character(s) to become the ultimate bad asses by killing the same weak enemies over and over until you get enough XP.
>>340881941
I really like the "more you use it better you get" systems, including Oblivions, but the stat growth system was the worst thing ever.
Not that Skyrim made it better when they removes stats.
>>340911524
It doesn't make sense for your enemies to become the ultimate bad asses because your characters are killing the same weak enemies over and over, either.
>>340911524
It also doesn't make sense to jump through some autistic clusterfuck of hoops to level up.
Paper Mario literally fixes your issue and that was the simplest system ever.
>>340912372
You're killing all the weak guys, the only ones left are the badasses.
>>340904779
F2 was pretty good, but even that could be improved. Traits need to be rebalanced (especially Gifted, holy shit that is OP), stats be given a more meaningful role in the game than just skill modifiers, and skill levels need to be replaced, instead of arbitrary numbers (how well do you know something at 25% vs 26%?) there should be something a bit more concrete and sensible, like skill levels that went from untrained to master or something. Basically, do what Deus Ex did. Tag skills are a great idea, helping to further shape your character, but they should also be more than just bonus skillpoints. Have them open up additional perks, or come up in dialogue and gameplay choices. I mean, if your character is specialized in repairing shit and is therefore much better at it than the average Joe, for example, it should be of use.
>>340892131
You probably meant best leveling system
However if you're talking about the time it takes to level then I agree this is soul-crushingly long
>>340881941
Agreed you were literally better off just leveling skills and never sleeping because of the awful level scaling.
>>340881941
I've always enjoyed the flavor text Morrowind and Oblivion featured upon leveling
>you awake as if you had a wet dream!
>everything is so much clearer
>you feel like you can take on the world
>>340891223
>>340888248
I'm with these two. The level up texts were fantastic.
>game doesn't allow you to break it and become truly godlike, no matter how much time and effort you put into it
>it's a singleplayer game
I get it when multiplayer games do that in order to keep the game fair to all the players, but what's the point of restricting players in singleplayer games? Who do you have to keep it fair to? The fucking AI enemies?
>>340891592
Not at all. I love it because it shows how far you have come. If everything is always pretty close to you whats the point of "growing stronger."
>>340891740
That would be an interesting mechanic if done right. Bandits do their thing every so often. Some die the ones who live level up.
>>340912372
>>340912476
I take it you and all the others crying about how TLR fucks you over if you grind haven't played the PC version? It's like a Director's Cut and it improves some important shit, including the level scaling.
>>340894953
God is being pumped for power.
You are the product of experiments fusing with God.
You end up fusing with God and accepting the world is fucked.
>>340901308
Yeah but in Morrowind and Oblivion it's literally:
>max your endurance early
You eventually become a god that can do everything
>max your endurance late
You eventually become a god that can do everything but with gimped hp
>>340915471
I have only played the PC version. But level scaling is the least of that games problems.
fallout 4
>>340894890
True, you can play the game plenty fine by going in blindly, I did so as well on my first play and did well enough, though they should have hidden even more then. Can't blame the player for trying to understand the system, if they tell you "now you are a mystic knight of ultimate destruction with a +2 bonus to fuck you all" and then expect them to go "oh, ok". Same for the fuckton of formations. It would be a great system to adapt your groups to the fight at hand, but for most fights, the interface was just too clunky to "change things really fast", let alone you didn't get much feedback on why you should actually bother with formations apart from some vague description and a few numbers. Again, great mechanics, but ass backwards presentation.
Same for the crafting. "Lol, to craft the next good thing on your list, you need this unique ingredient from an optional mini boss, but we aint gonna tell you where it spawn or how often. trolololo". That just makes things needlessly frustrating. They could at least have put in some purchasable guild info, that tells you when/where a mob spawns, or maybe some lure-system to draw them out forcibly. Instead it seemed more like "lol buy our official guide".
I understand what you said, trying to get the player to just play the game, as the leveling system points also to such an intent, and I think it can work if done properly, but I think they did it badly in this case.
>>340884416
what the fuck?
how do you get to level 14 and look so average you faggot
>>340914710
>If everything is always pretty close to you whats the point of "growing stronger."
Getting access to new abilities, spells, etc. and having to use those against the more powerful enemies you'll fight. I just don't find it fun to annihilate weak enemies with my godlike powers. What if that low-level bandit quest had an interesting story? All the drama is gone because your OP character trivialized it.
>>340881941
Dragons Dogma's levelling system really annoyed me sometimes
>>340916801
It would have annoyed me more but the majority of your strength comes from gear anyway.
>>340915843
Who needs HP when you can fly around the world clad in your riced up magic gear that dwarfs any god's artifacts and obliterate all life for miles with your custom crafted apocalypse spells? What difference does HP numbers make when you're the fucking alpha, omega, and everything in between?
>>340916419
Then don't go back and do fucking bandit quests you sperg.
You don't see national leaders worried about fucking mopping the floor or some stupid shit either do you?
>but that cleaning quest could have had a decent plot lel
>>340916419
There are high level areas for you to mill around in and fight high level things. I find it a good thing because it shows that the world does not revolve around you. The world does not conform to you.
But then again I'm not a "Do everything on one character" kind of guy. I like doing 3 or 4 runs. So that bandit camp I missed? It will be apart of the story of the next character I RP as. I like it when there is to much to do in your level range so you can do it with other characters.
>>340917053
unfortunately health and stamina don't, so for maximum autism you just play as characters with max health/stamina growths and any attack/magick is just a bonus
>>340917298
Looks like you solved your own problem. Or do world leaders worry about mopping floor if it scales to their level? I've only done food analogies so far.
>>340916287
The worst part about crafting was that you couldn't just give your mouthbreather teammates the ingredients they needed, oh no. You had to go out and waste time grinding whatever fucker that drops the shiny turd that fucknuts needs to upgrade his spear, even though you've got like 50 of those turds right there in your inventory, all because the only way for dipshit to get an ingredient is to shanghai it after a battle.
>>340918140
>Looks like you solved your own problem
Which is what? Are you having a tough time keeping track of conversations with anons?
>>340883479
It is better now.
When learning skills were a thing the optimal start of any character was to train learning skills for a month before actually starting to improve your char.
Jesus christ who fucking came up with that idea.
I'm kind of torn about Fire Emblem
It's really practical and easy to understand yet RNG points are a fucking joke
>>340918601
>If I miss a "Clear the bandits" quest from the start of the game and come back 30 levels later the bandits should be NOTHING to me. They should either flee when they see I am superior or should all die in one hit.
>>340887960
FF2 is much less awful if you just don't wear heavy armor and allow yourself to take regular damage in battle
>>340882052
>All your attackers become Mystic Knights
>All your healers become Cavaliers
Rush hasn't even used an invocation since like the second dungeon. Fuck this game.
>>340919064
A game where your restorative spells can miss and buffs are essential yet literally worthless unless you spend hours casting them over and over on yourself cannot be anything other than awful.
