/v/, do you accept Venom as (for all intents and purposes) Big Boss, or just view him as a pale imitation, and a dumb plot device?
>>340051250
VENOM DID NOTHING WRONG
Venom's a silent protagonist without any character.
>>340051250
Venom is such a loser he decided to be somebody else when he found out he wasn't Big Boss. That's as cucked as it gets.
The fact that Kojima thinks people will self insert as a loser like that really asserts how out of his mind he really is.
I view him as not canon
>>340051250
Dumb plot device to deliver a meta-statement.
Also, I'm so autismally buttmad that I don't include TPP in my MGS headcanon.
>>340051250
He was just an example of the fame soldiers can attain and the legacy they leave behind.
Regardless of how l337 they actually were.
>>340051550
Don't remind me this exists please.
>>340051250
Ever since the autismfest that was MGS2 I try my best to ignore the story
>>340051250
I accept him as superior to Big Boss, he not only manages to fill the man's shoes, but does it without being corrupted and destroyed by the vile cynicism or hypocrisy of the original, even after being put through an even more harrowing trial.
He has lost more than almost anyone else in all of Metal Gear and just keeps on trucking, what an inspiration.
>>340051250
>intents and purposes
It's "intensive purposes," dummy.
>>340053380
>gives a superweapon to a 12 year old boy
>inspiration
The only people left to defend Kojima really are the biggest fucking losers you'll find.
>>340053671
Wow what a clown its, "in tents and porpoises."
I don't like it, but I accept it
Big Boss wasn't the legendary soldier we all make him out to be
Kojima was trying to push the theme since MGS1 when Snake says "The real me is no match for the legend"
>>340051250
Big Boss is an idea, and Venom was fully embraced as worthy of the title by the man himself.
Fags who complain about the twist are the same kind of loser who got rused by MGS2 and cried about it.
>>340051550
Lol he were a spy tho familam
>>340051250
They should have called him Anti-Boss or and make him butter after finding out the truth or something, leaving room for a sequel without Hideo and Kojima. At the very least of the main character of TPP hated big boss, maybe the player would too
>>340055068
>"The real me is no match for the legend"
You played the "real me" and it was pretty impressive. Same with Big Boss. We played him as a one man army in PW, taking out tanks and helicopters alone. Kojima suddenly going "lol no, Big Boss isn't impressive" didn't work with PP considering the things Venom did wasn't nearly as impressive as the things Big Boss did in PW alone:
>Takes out multiple Metal Gear prototypes.
>Consistently takes out tanks, helicopters and APCs with their support squads alone.
>Bench pressed a metal gear STEPPING on him.
PW made Big Boss into such a beast backtracking from that with PP is just sloppy. Instead of feeling
>Big Boss isn't that impressive, YOU'RE impressive
PP players felt
>remember how awesome Big Boss is? Well, here's an inferior/more boring copy of him.
The only thing I felt after PP was all the awesome stuff Big Boss did that I missed while playing as this less impressive version of him.
>>340053380
>had hypnotherapy and surgery
>got to be the coolest soldier ever without having to kill his mentor or feel stinging betrayal
>free ride with everyone giving him everything that Big Boss had to work for
>most traumatic thing he had to do was mercy kill some of his men
>when finding out he wasn't really BiBo, he just went "Whatever, I am NOW"
Even if Venom did have some thoughts on what was happening, we barely heard them. Was he happy or angry he was was forced to be Big Boss? He's a self insert for the player and his thoughts are yours, not an actual character.
>>340055607
The ending is ambiguous enough that you can interpret it as Venom initally accepting the role; he smiles after being deemed worthy of the title of Big Boss.
Years later, though, in Outer Heaven, he looks into the mirror and sees nothing but a blood soaked demon, any aspects of his own identity have been completely subsumed by Big Boss.
>Big Boss was a legend that was so charismatic he could convince armies to join his cause and his enemies to become allies
>Massive Medic couldn't even say "venom" if his life depended on it
MGSV was a mistake. It has no soul.
>>340055857
This. Kojima is a hack with the whole "humble hero" thing. Solid and Big Boss do all this amazing stuff, the reason they're called "LEGEDARY" in the first place, and then Kojima says "lol I'm they're just soldiers anyone can be them."
>>340056094
>>340056226
>muh timeline muh canon
You never understood Kojima as a creator or this series
>>340056476
>muh open world
>muh Keif
And you're an apologist, DmC faggot style.
Hes better than Big Bitch desu senpai
>>340051250
CUT CONTENT - the game, the trailers are the real phantom pain they tell a much more potentially enticing story than what we goti still feel it to
>>340056568
Its not apologetics, Kojima has always retconned whatever he needed to in order to get his message across. Hes always been more interested in theme and examining the nature of video games themselves than adhering to a fictional timeline.
>>340056815
The trailers were misdirection. The revenge story was a Phantom for what the story was really about, just like Venom was a phantom to distract XOF from the real Big Boss
Mgsv has cut content, sure, but you pretend theres more than there actually is because you didnt like the story and the episodic nature of the game lets you fill in the blanks however you want to
>>340051250
Pale imitation, though I'm a little impressed that Kojima went to these lengths to explain how Big Boss "survived" metal gear 1.
>>340051250
He's a martyr who died for his boss's cause just like any MSF/DD soldier
Bossu became a villain the moment he accepted Cipher's plan to save his bum despite the fact that he was angry as fuck about what he did
The problem isn't the twist per se, it's the way the way it was executed, showing your face with no stitches and fully recovered in a single day and they gave Ishmael's medic's face so that people would think Ishmael was the medic who was so loyal to BB that he watched over him all this time
It's a big shame that Venom ended up not being the original BB but placing silent BB who almost doesn't speak at all during the game feels even weirder than the dumbass plot twist
Woah, hey guys. Don't mind me and my excellent combat ability that's even better than Big Boss. Am a grill, btw ;)
>>340057097
If you think Venom was just meant to be an explanation for Metal Gear 1 you didnt get it
>>340056815
What could have been
>>340056870
While there is partial truth to your statement the games still connected, Solid Snake was still Solid Snake across the series, Big Boss' personality crossed over titles, plot points, shit like that because it was an ongoing series. MGSV said fuck it to all of that and for all intents and purposes it's a complete reboot as everyone and everything is unrecognisable.
The series was a good balance between characters, plot, message, theme, all of it. MGSV didn't bother to balance shit and thankfully you're only a minority so dumbass shit like what you think isn't what everyone believes.
>>340057205
Stats are meaningless. With full upgrades Snake is better than S++ soldiers and has every combat skill rolled into one.
>>340057078
Why do you give them so much credit? You really think Kojipro say down and said
>The story will be bad on purpose! It's art!
Sad, really.
>>340057205
*sneaks behind u*
*grab u around the neck*
its nothin personnel, kid
*kill u with knife*
*teleports away via box fast travel*
>>340057473
That's not cut content though
You can't really blame the game for not giving in to your fantasies
MGSV was awful, only Kojidrones will defend this garbage
He is a clever imitation, much like MGSV.
Everyone thought Venom was Big Boss, like how everyone thought MGSV would be a proper MGS game.
>>340057560
You act like there isnt precedent for this shit with MGS2. The trailers showed Snake sneaking aroud big shell and fighting fortune. No one knew about Raiden until the day of release.
MGSV aint perfect but youre just mad the story wasnt what you wanted it to be
>>340057638
Fuck off I was a Kojimadrone before GZ but the whole MGSV shit and the cancelation of ZOE3 just turned me against him. MGSV sucks because he spent the whole budget on Joosten.
>>340057473
Yeah, remember in GZ how it said an underground nuclear was shut down in South Africa? Where Outer Heaven will be built? I thought for sure they'd play a part in TPP, but nope, here's more tapes about parasites and burgers.
>>340057784
>No one knew about Raiden until the day of release.
UK here that's bullshit. Magazines showed Raiden well in advance.
>>340057953
That was a real life event, though, and they DO talk about it in MGSV. Kaz says that MSF's nuke inspired smaller nations to try to start their own nuclear program, because if a PMC could have their own nuke they should be able to as well.>>340057953
>>340057784
In MGS2, the only flaw is Raiden. gameplay, level design, game design, story are great
MGSV is repetitive, has a empty """""openworld""""", secondary characters are shit, story pretty nonexistent and unfinished
This is the difference between MGS2 and V.
>>340057982
Nice try Eurofag
>>340057982
He might have been in screenshots, but he was not known to be the protagonist. That was a well guarded secret.
>>340058167
I said well in advance you illiterate cretin. You couldn't stop magazines posting shit about MGS2 since the first hint of it came up so do you really think printing only happened after it came out in US and JP? Fucking retard.
>>340057784
We all knew the protagonist was either Decoy Octopus or the Medic. We're mad that the story was never completed. Eli runs off with your robot, Pequod, and the English parasites so Venom goes back to redoing old missions.
>>340058105
Really? Huh... They could make that a tie in with Outer Heaven like how EVA was an actual agent who defected.
>>340057473
Peace Walker was a push in the right direction.
>>340057542
>With full upgrades Snake is better than S++ soldiers
wrong though
try aiming down a sniper
>>340058124
>MGS2 story
>great
Raiden was a mistake.
I just didn't understand how he was so fucking good if he wasn't Big Boss.
Big Boss was such a fucking legend that the gubment CLONED HIM, and his clonechildren were also shown to perform at superhuman standards.
Venom was literally just some dude that hung out with Big Boss, and yet somehow he's as good at CQC, shooting guns, gathering an army and all of this shit, even after missing an arm?
That's the only reason I was mad. It's like Friday the 13th: A New Beginning, when you think it's Jason the whole movie and then you learn it was actually just some assmad ambulance driver whose son died, so he dressed up like Jason to kill people for revenge. Sure, that part makes sense, but none of the other feats he showed over the course of the movie (Jason's superhuman strength, surviving getting crushed, shot, dropped, etc) make any fucking sense at all now.
>>340058310
The eli plot is unresolved, sure, but faggots like >>340057473 had unrealistic fantasies of what the game was supposed to be and then cried when it didnt meet them, and the episodic nature of the game allowed them to pretend their fantasies were real, just cut content.
>>340058287
Sorry, I couldn't hear you over all those dicks in your mouth
>>340055935
He isn't happy. Theres a tear in his eye when Venom is listening to the tape at the end.
>>340058615
>Venom was literally just some dude that hung out with Big Boss, and yet somehow he's as good at CQC, shooting guns, gathering an army and all of this shit, even after missing an arm?
Hes a reflection of the player who knows how to play metal gear because hes played previous games, just like Raiden was a good soldier because he was raised through VR.
>>340058615
>Big Boss was such a fucking legend
>A legend is usually bad news. Someone tells it, someone else remembers, everybody passes it on. - Solid Sneak
>>340053380
>but does it without being corrupted and destroyed by the vile cynicism or hypocrisy of the original,
Have you played MG1 at all?
>>340051250
Big boss is a pussy and any attempt there was to humanize him made home more of a pussy like shit walker who turned his mentor into a singing cunt instead of an unsung war hero making her sacrifice in mgs3 pointless. Solid snake is way better but kojima tried to force us to hate him. Raiden was a mistake
>>340058615
They explain this with one throw away line: "He was the best solider we had." But there's ton of plotholes just waiting to rip the story apart.
>BB falling into a coma when the medic took the brunt of the explosion and was still awake until they forced him asleep
>Venom getting two day plastic surgery
>Venom getting all his muscle mass back in a week after 9 years
/V/ Do you accept thatLiquidwas secretely psoing as Solid in Metal Gear 1 to kill the Phantom?
>>340058945
>Solid Snek also a legend
>even though he tells Meryl that the legends aren't true he proceeds to destroy a tank on foot, shoot down a helicopter, outsnipe the best sniper in the world, beat a psychic flying guy who can read your mind, beat a ninja cyborg with his bare hands, shoot down a Metal Gear on foot, and prevail in a fistfight against his genetically superior brother clone on top of a burning mecha
Solid Snake doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.
>>340051250
dumb plot device
as a twist it's basically just a rehash of MGS2 anyways
>>340059138
>two day plastic surgery
He didnt, though. Who knows whats going on with the truth mission, but the tapes outright state that Venom was made into big boss during the coma.
>>340058847
At first, then he smirked.
>>340051250
For what impact he had on the plot of the game and the wider series he may as well not even exist. MGSV doesn't really add anything to the series and it just screws up some of the stuff introduced in the other games. I just think it's better to acknowledge that MGS died with MGS4.
>>340051250
Dumb plot device that wasn't necessary at all and added nothing to the series.
>YOU, THE PLAYER, ARE THE BIG BOSS
>>340059408
>hated MGS4 when it came out because it was shitty, and stupid
>people retroactively liking MGS4 now because of how shit V was
ree
>>340059246
That wasnt the point numbnuts. He wasnt saying "im not a capable soldier" he was saying "im not a romanticized perfect specimen of a man you think i am". Until Naomi's pep talk at the end Snake is a broken man with no reason to live.
Big boss had a rhetoric about making a nation where soldiers werent exploited by their superiors, but does to Venom what the CIA did to The Boss. Hes a hypocrite, and not the hero thr world thought he was.
>>340059263
Nope. In the Truth mission, the doctor and nurse argue over giving Venom plastic surgery. Then he shows you your medic's face, the screen goes black and says "48 hours later," and then you see Big Boss's face in the mirror.
>>340059246
The first half are all part of Liquid's plan, the other he went through it with the power of friendship, there were bunch of people helping him.
To this day I cannot fathom how people can get this worked up over a fucking video games and a MGS at that.
>>340059263
>He didnt, though
Yes he did
The doctor says he's too weak for facial surgery the day before Quiet attacks the hospital
He also says "this is you as you've lived until this day,tomorrow it will be your phantom"
>>340059527
MGS4 is a shit game/movie but it's a better finale to the series than any of the games that came after it.
>>340059610
Except he literally is the romanticized perfect specimen of a man that we think he is.
>>340058615
Before Big Boss there was The Boss, the greatest soldier who ever lived, the mother of special forces etc.
Then suddenly she takes this nodody named "John" under her wing
No genetic enhancements, no clone bullshit, just effort and guts maybe a bit of luck and suddenly he can CQC the Boss to the ground
Big Boss had an eye for soldiers with talent, and he acknowledged Medic as the best in his force
>>340059628
Yet during Zero's call to Ocelot in 1975 he says he's already "made another Snake" and during his visit in 1977 Zero needs to be told which snake is Jack.
I choose to accept the objective recording over the fragmented memories of a broken man with no real identity as fact
>>340051250
I have no idea how I put 100+ hours into this. It's not a good game by any stretch of the imagination.
>>340059964
>I have no idea how I put 100+ hours into this.
Pic related?
>>340059863
The Boss literally raised John to be the murdermachine that he is, and was even confident that she could throw him off a fucking bridge and he'd still come back to kill her, just as planned.
Make no mistake, John was only a nobody until Boss decided to turn him into a monster. If they showed Big Boss training a guy, or nodding with approval and shit in a few cutscenes, sure. But they shoehorned that crap in after the fact with like two throwaway lines
>YEAH THIS MEDIC GUY SAVED BIG BOSS BY JUMPING IN FRONT
>TRULY HE WAS THE BEST SOLIDER WE HAD
>THAT'S WHY HE WAS A MEDIC AND NOT DOING IMPORTANT MISSIONS :DD
>>340051250
Well he isn't big boss so I don't view him as such. I do view him as a cool snake and I enjoyed his whole thing though, how wasn't this the missing link? It explains everything
>>340059964
You secretly enjoyed the game but are pretending you didnt so you can fit in
>>340058807
That was a sad thing to find out that you'll be controlling a gender neutral boy after the brief tanker episode.
>>340060089
He's the Big Boss's combat medic.. He probably needs to know some moves for that.
>>340059938
That means Venom was being conditioned to believe he was Big Boss during that time. Yeah, you'd think you would do the surgery then, but it didn't happen.
>>340055857
>>340056226
It's not like he became BB overnight they conditioned him into it
>>340060136
Or I genuinely forgot how I had fun with the game. Not everything is a conspiracy, ya cuntnugget.
>>340051250
If this was a story they would have tried to tell in the PS2 era of MGS games I wouldn't mind this twist. It might have meant something to me. But to leave this as the final twist and revelation that we will probably ever get in the MGS story it just doesn't even matter. It was an entire multi million dollar undertaking to make this game with the hype train moving along at full speed all to tell us the story of how Big Boss seemed to survive getting blown up by a rocket launcher in Metal Gear 1. Out of all the crazy stupid things that we could have had the last entry int he Metal Gear series to tell that was not one of them.
>>340059964
Any MGS fan was raised on suspension of disbelief. That shit kept you going until you got to the goddamn 46th episode.
>>340060292
You wouldn't have put that much time in it if you weren't enjoying yourself though.
Yes, Venom is Big Boss.
If you're a genefag and not a memefag then get the fuck out of my face, you don't deserve to call yourself a MGS fan.
Memes > Genes
Always.
>>340059938
I think it's because Medic's face is one of the faces that was used if not one of the early faces of Snake in GZ and TPP and Zero hadn't seen him for a long time
Other than that, it could be that Venom was bandaged or Snake kept his Ishmael look the whole time
>>340060341
Speak for yourself.. As much as I like MGS story I was most hyped and interested in the gameplay with V. And there were still some great moments in V, it's a good game.
>>340060278
Then why did Zero need to be told which Snake was the real one? The truth mission needs to be taken with a grain of salt, considering it even opens with "there is no truth, only interpretations". The truth is a series of lies that allow Venom to see the real truth of who he is
Not to mentions a bunch if hospital staff interacting with Venom before the switch could blow the whole thing open. Why would they announce "V HAS COME TO" if he wasnt yet ready to be Big Boss?
>>340060507
Every single moment you enjoyed in V was carefully designed to be *borderline* satisfying.
Think about that for a while.
This game was surprisingly easy to forget given the years of hype
There's barely any discussion for it nowadays and even then there's nothing to discuss
Thinking about MGSV nowadays is like a big hangover where your head hurts and you can't remember what happened and you don't really care
So if this isn't Venom's real face, the scars can't be from the crash, can they? Was it the rushed surgery? Did they scar him on purpose to make him angsty?
>>340060469
What the fuck is your problem?
Probably one of the shittiest twists in the last 5 years of video games.
>>340060469
What do you have against Genes?
>>340051550
Wasnt Ocelot pretty much a spy anyway
>>340060665
>There's barely any discussion for it nowadays and even then there's nothing to discuss
>multiple threads a day every day
>no discussion
Yeah fuck off. Youre like the fags on /tv/ who pretend TFA was "forgotten" because its the metric your contrarian mind can use to pretend it was a failure
>>340060676
Do you not notice the giant fucking piece of shrapnel coming out of his head?
No, entirely cosmetic.
He asked for it.
>>340060585
I was satisfied while playing it though,I would still be playing it regularly if there was a new game plus option
>>340060665
>There's barely any discussion for it nowadays and even then there's nothing to discuss
Because everyone who played it loved it
>>340060984
Isnt replaying the missions the exact same thing as a new game plus really?
If you want to rebuild your base from scratch it aint a new game plus
>>340060931
The scar on his eye, nose, and lip could have been easily fixed during the surgery. This game is an absolute mess when you examine it close.
>>340051250
I was too busy playing the game to notice.
>>340061086
I don't want to have to rebuild my base or get my gear all over again..I could replay missions I suppose but I enjoy at least some sense of progression and I want to be given the story tapes again and shit.
>>340051250
He is either:
>Literally the Final Boss of Metal Gear 1 which explains why Big Boss lives in Metal Gear 2 despite exploding to death
>A representation of the Player themselves meaning any of us can be this famous Mercenary similar to Raiden representing us the Metal Gear fanboy who respects Snake
>Or a shitty plot device
Either way, I wish the story could've been better. Gameplay wish it's perfect.
>>340060731
>>340060813
I hate jeans because I got the inferior ones.
>>340051250
I think he surpassed Big Boss. In nearly every way he is better than the original.
The only problem is Kojima decided to cut 90% of his dialogue to make him more of a player cipher to push the twist harder when the twist would have worked with him maintaining his character. Every time he does speak its pure awesome. If they just gave him a few more lines or some elaboration on his understanding of events at different points throughout the game, it would have gone a long way to making the entire story better.
The twist itself was fine, the real problem was that Kojima cut far more dialogue than he needed to for Venom, when the fact is, cutting the dialogue HURT the twist more than it helped it.
>>340061462
>The only problem is Kojima decided to cut 90% of his dialogue to make him more of a player cipher
Source?
>>340061368
He's all of these though
>>340061462
>The only problem is Kojima decided to cut 90% of his dialogue to make him more of a player cipher to push the twist harder when the twist would have worked with him maintaining his character. Every time he does speak its pure awesome. If they just gave him a few more lines or some elaboration on his understanding of events at different points throughout the game, it would have gone a long way to making the entire story better.
I think they should have gone the Uncharted 4 route and had a few dialogue choices.
Nothing major that affects the plot, just maybe an option for a snarky reply or a cold one. I think that would have driven home the twist better.
>>340061025
You and your dyslexic friends are not everyone.
>>340061737
There's a soundcloud full of cut Kief lines.
I'll never understand why people are so butthurt over V, why we have to have weekly threads by faggots..
>MGSV WILL NEVER BE GOOD
>THE DISSAPPOINTMENT
>(MEMES)
>MY PUSSY HURTS SO MUCH
MGS2 and 3 are GOAT. Nothing was ever going to top those in terms of plot and overall quality. V is still a good game but come on.
>>340061737
There used to be more but I cant find it: https://soundcloud.com/gboon/sets/removed-venom-snake-sutherland-dialogue
It includes battle crys, unique CQC attack names, cut dialogue with Paz, and dialogue for certain events, such as the decision to develop nuclear weapons. Also PW tier "YOUR FIRED"
>>340061863
Yeah, I think they should have used the interrogation wheel to let you talk with soldiers at motherbase. Add in Kaz and Ocelot to chill and talk with and it would be pretty cool. Have soldiers at base do stuff like work out, practice drills, ect.
I feel the two weakest parts of the game are Venom's Characterization, and the Motherbase (the place you visit, I like the mechanics of leveling up the base and unlocking equipment) and I feel that the game would be massively improved if they gave you stuff to do with your soldiers at base, which would also double as interactions to flesh out Venom.
Imagine having no muscle mass at the start of the game, and working out at motherbase with soldiers to gain mass throughout the game- listening to Miller spot you and Ocelot try to beat your record. Would be so fucking comfy.
Also, using the interrogation wheel for dynamic dialogue replies would completely fix the Jeep scene. You could sit in silent mode and let it play out as it does, or interrupt him at any point and start talking back.
>>340062770
So a whole lot of nothing was cut, gotcha.
>>340063085
It was a lot of stuff that added character to him and made him not so silent, but yes, it was nothing plot integral, but I do think it added a lot to the game and the feel of the character.
>>340051250
To be honest, the story has potential.
I put it that way, because I consider the maximum potential has not been reached. There's too much stuff obviously cut, the end remains open.
People are too bent over pointless aspects of the story, because Venom feels shoehorned. Well of course, he IS shoehorned. The whole point was to make a character that pretends to be Big Boss, so the player can pretend to be Big Boss, walk in his shoes, understand what he went through, why he did what he did, all the while leaving the legend of Big Boss intact. And thus ask the player: "what would you do?"
The Metal Gear series, starting with MGS1, has had a recurrent theme: your free will is your most powerful tool, and allows you to go beyond your genes, your destiny, your history, the context in which you were born and raised, your education, your language, and anything others want you to be. You are what YOU want to be. And Kojima gave us a game that embodies this very theme better than any other. And Kojima being Kojima, he certainly wanted people to endlessly discuss what Big Boss really did, how he was really. And perhaps go beyond video games?
So now ask yourself this question: considering you can do anything you want, why are you still shitposting on /v/?
>>340063430
>when the poster finally gets it just right
Too many people forget what Snake said at the end of MGS2
>Dont focus on words so much. Find the meaning behind those words, and then decide
>>340063430
I agree, but I can't help at being disapointed that Kojima has such a good set up but failed to follow through.
Imagine a 5 years later Epilogue chapter with you playing as Venom in some warzone, you rescue a lone little girl and get surrounded. You hastily hand her a sniper rifle and have her help you fend off the onslaught.
"Are you Big Boss?"
"Call me Saladin.... I am known as Big Boss as well, but I take myself beyond that, into a destiny and name I choose for myself. Lets get out of here."
>>340064204
I've decided Kojima's words are bullshit.
>>340057529
Do you need to lie down or something, dude? You're being a real asshole.
