Tank, Healer, DPS
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Which role is more important?
DPS
Mob
>>339909954
Mob, without it all the others would be out of a job.
Holy trinity games are garbage and you shouldn't even waste brainpower thinking about this question
Healer.
A tank and healer can take out the mob.
A DPS and healer can take out the mob as long as the DPS doesn't get 1 hit
A tank and DPS can't live long enough to kill the mob.
>>339910093
This.
Tank is the obvious answer.
>>339910093
Until compelling games exist that can allow for creative ways to dispatch monsters WITHOUT HP bars, the trinity will persist.
>>339910093
Remember what happened last time someone tried to kill the Holy Trinity?
Depends. If the tank has any healing capabilities then probably the tank since they need to be able to do decent damage to keep aggro consistently, thus they can compete with DPS. If no one has healing capabilities then the healer is the most important since anyone can tank/do damage as long as they're healed enough. But if a fight is entirely dependent on how fast you kill an enemy, perhaps due to a timer or immense damage output from the enemy, then DPS becomes incredibly important.
In most cases it tends to be Healer > Tank > DPS. DPS is replaceable by a tank's, hell sometimes a healer's, damage out put and they often times in groups of five have two others to replace one. A tank is critical to groups staying alive but some DPS can be hardy enough that, with a decent healer, can be fine if they go down. A healer in most cases is the most important as many classes don't have the ability to heal themselves or keep others alive. They also serve as support with buffing and sometimes even debuffing which is helpful.
So I say healer, but it really depends.
>>339909954
Healers are just afk-scripted jobs, being a dps is stupid since all you do is the same as the other DPS but with different animations and Tanking in video games is a pretty fucking bad mechanic to begin with, boring as fuck, so all 3 types suck
Just run NIN/DNC ya dinguses, capped parry and evasion too
>>339909954
It completely depends on the type of mob and the situation. Tank is the best overall answer though, although Healer is almost just as important.
>>339910308
it couldve worked but they did a shit job of everything
I'm every MMO ive played I make hybrid characters.
Tank with all dmg accessories/hit rate/dmg. Massive dps and pretty much unkillable.
Dex based assasin characters with tank stats and accessories. Stands toe to toe with warrior classes but hardly gets hit and has stunlock.
Always statted characters with OP gear and unconventional stats so I can solo nearly anything. Ive never enjoyed healers though or casting characters, so Tank with mixed DPS stat/gear was usually my favorite.
>>339909954
Tank/Healer>>>DPS
You can argue tank vs. healer, personally I lean towards tank, but it depends on the game and the fight.
>>339910236
Then what about all the older MMOs that had support roles and mixed roles without having to divide everything into an even 3?
>>339909954
tank
a good tank can damn near solo most mobs and even some bosses depending on spells, skills, and items they have
DPS >>>> Healers >>>>>>>> Tanks
Boss, because one boss can easily kill all three of them by the dozen.
>>339909954
HEALER is most important for the following reasons
-If a TANK dies then DPS sacrifices a few hits until HEALER revives TANK, battle continues
-If a DPS dies then TANK wasn't doing their job or DPS got cocky and got hit by an AoE or some bullshit, HEALER rivives DPS, battle continues
-If HEALER dies then the HEALER was just plain shit or their party is a complete mess, neither TANK or DPS can revive HEALER, battle ends
Without the HEALER the party falls apart, also it's possible for a party to continue without a TANK if DPS spread damage taken between themselves while HEALER focuses on AoE heals
In other words;
HEALER important
DPS do your fucking job
TANK not really needed
>>339909954
Tank/Healer > DPS
Which is more important between Tank and Healer depends on the fight
>in a dungeon
>tank is slow as fuck and can't hold threat
>start pulling myself for the sake of a timely clear
>rest of the group follows suit
>tank starts standing back in hopes that we die without him and his special snowflake status will be reaffirmed
>half the dungeon goes by and he hasn't done anything but keep up
>finally says "c-can you guys let me do my job? p-please?"
is there a more pathetic group of entitled cucks than tanks in MMOs?
>>339910817
Support classes and hybrid classes simply mix and match but are inevitably less effective at fulfilling the 3 basic roles.
Take damage
Deal damage
Heal damage
Since end-game content needs to be challenging to be worthwhile, the players invariably have to maximize their effectiveness and this means being herded into roles that perform at least one of these functions reasonably well with a few individual skills that offset any downsides the class has.
In the end all of the content can be cleared simply by focusing on those three elements, so players are forced into them
This is not the fault of the players or even the developers at that point. The fault lies in the fundamental gameplay mechanics. As long as there are hit point pools that determine winning and losing nothing will change. And since hit point pools are so versatile at allowing other creative elements to be combined with them, it's extremely difficult and time consuming to make fights both clear to understand and interesting to fight.
>>339909954
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXnXC_75SHI
>>339910093
Even if it wasn't there by design, as long as character-building exists, it would be there through emergence. If there are combat factors that increase your durability/damage/support abilities in any way, it's pretty much inevitably optimal if everyone specializes. After all, statistics and other combat factors tend to scale with each other (if you increase your damage, the value of critical strike is increased, which increases the speed of attack speed even further, which increases the value of percentage-based damage modifiers even further, which makes an additional melee attack ability even stronger) or even themselves (suppose armour decreases damage by a flat amount and an enemy hits for 1000: 500 armour doubles your expected time to live, but after that point you only need 250 armour).
>it's a tanks and healers think they matter and their job is difficult episode
>>339911027
>what are resurrection items
>>339909954
With a good enough healer, you don't NEED a tank, just have someone do enough DPS to hold aggro and gg.
Alternately, just heal yourself really well and the healer could essentially be a tank.
>>339911125
>be tank
>healer moving slow as fuck
>start gathering mobs
>healer whines and says slow down
>keep gathering
>healer purposefully stops in the hope we will die
>stop, invoke defense
>DPS unload
>tank unload
>mobs dead
>healer buttmad leaves party
>we finish the dungeon without a healer
Get better gear/skillz
>>339909954
All 3 can be subbed if the other 2 two are good, It completely depends on the encounter
>>339911276
With a good enough tank you don't need a healer.
>>339911570
In a shitty enough game that might be true.
>>339911632
We've already covered that >>339910093
>>339911632
All MMOs are shit
>>339911269
Difficulty =/= Importance
Whether or not you have to do constant management to properly do your job isn't the question here. It's whether your job is important. And when most groups of five people have two other DPS to pick up your slack and a tank who has to do decent damage to keep aggro the role of DPS is slightly diminished.
>>339911275
>resurrection items
>in a balanced MMO
kek
>>339911570
Fair point.
>>339911276
In a shitty enough game that might be true.
Easily tank, then healer, then DPS
>>339911746
You can't just copy me!
How about you idiots play an MMO that doesn't have this bullshit like...Runescape
>>339911269
>this is what DPSfags actually believe
No wonder you get no respect
>>339909954
The importance between Tank and Healer depends on the encounter.
>>339911027
>most of the players are DPS
>a few may be healers, depends on fights
>1 or maybe 2-3 may be tanks depending on fights.
Tanks are the, on average, least common person in the raid and are therefore the most important linch pin of the operation. DPS needs replaced? It can happen fast. Healer? Always can find a sissy nearby. Tank? GG job application will be open for the next 30 days, send resumes.
Healer > Tank > DPS is the order of most important. Flip it for most fun to play though.
They should all be equally important I think. The tank shouldn't do as much damage as the dps, the healer shouldn't be capable of keeping everyone alive indefinitely, and the boss shouldn't be possible without all the dps alive.
I think that if everyone performs their role well then the boss should die when the healer is almost out of mana. Not sure if many MMOs are like this though.
>>339911906
assmad tankcuck detected
>>339909954
They're all the most important.
If there's no DPS the fight will either last forever or hit an enrage timer if the game has one. If there's no tank the mobs will run wild and kill everything. If there's no healer no one will last long enough to do anything.
They all need each other. That's the point.the real question is which one do you want in the hands of your team's best player
>>339912018
That is the ideal situation but encounters and gear break that balance
I've played all 3, and I can safely say that without a competent or geared healer the group is 100% boned.
A healer can carry a shit tank and a shit DPS but a DPS and a tank can't carry a shit healer.
>>339912214
Yes they can what the fuck are you on?
DPS can carry both a shit tank and a shit healer.
Playing a level 60 DPSing White Mage in FFXIV is pretty fun you know. Always moving, having to make quick decisions and keeping your party in check.
>FFXIV
>>339912340
>FFXIV
>>339909954
Tank for keeping everyone else alive. Healer for keeping everyone alive. DPS for killing the boss before enrage and thus keeping everyone alive.
Short answer; fuck you.
>>339911732
>pick up your slack
Oh I thought we were talking about dpses not tanks
>>339912214
Sadly true. Whenever my internet decides to crap out on me while I am playing a healer I get yelled at, no one really notices all that much when it happens with other classes.
>>339912294
>what the fuck are you on?
Whoa buddy somebody put on their big boy pants today.
>>339909954
If you don't have DPS then its going to take fucking forever and the Tank will take too much damage that the Healer won't be able to recover
If you don't have a Healer then it makes encounters more tricky than they need to be which makes every single battle on a countdown to see how long the Tank can last then to the seconds of how long the DPS can last.
Without a Tank you risk the Healer getting targeted which will then poor back to the points in the healer section.
All roles are important, get your head out of your ass.
>>339912398
Been doing a tank/dps mix here recently. Because apparently we have a healer or two but everyone else is incompetent.
>>339911269
I always love seeing this stawman picture, it then reminds me that when i'm playing DPS i'm still doing the same mindless chaining that I do with Tank and Healer.
>FFXIV
>be level synced in a dungeon
>tank can't hold aggro
>doesn't use his aggro abilities
>"maybe you should watch your DPS!"
Friendly reminder that if a DPS drops out of the group, whoopdie fucking do we'll just reque for another one for about a minute or continue another. If a Tank drops then we have to wait a while BUT if a Warlock or Hunter are in the party then we can just keep on trucking. If a Healer drops then its time for the waiting game unless you want to start hardmode.
>>339912530
Nah, you clearly have no real experience and have no clue what you're talking about.
Real good attempt though.
>>339912981
>He doesn't want to start hardmode
I kinda wish there was another role, a crowd control de/buffer. They'd suck at doing damage, and can't heal nor can they tank, but they can control the battle field, and make tough enemies weak.
>>339911269
You forgot the part where the healer isn't putting out dps to help beat the enrage time.
>>339912981
That's not because healers are more crucial.
It's because people don't like to play healers since they're so nauseatingly boring.
>>339912981
>not starting hardmode
>>339913145
If you have room for such a thing then you take fewer healers. Cutting healers is one of the largest damage optimizations you can make.
>>339912294
A good tank can solo.
Game over
>>339910754
The entire thing became DPS only. It was completely retarded.
If you want people to work together in creative ways, you need class roles.
Maybe not healer-tank-dps but then some other type of class differentiation that distinctly gives characters different roles that must be combined to win.
Guildwars 2 basically made every class functionally the same: They were all self-sufficient DPS. The only class differentiation became how much DPS it could do (hence necromancers and rangers being considered shit tier).
They later SLIGHTLY tried to change this by making Mesmers boost dps of others and making guardians give temporary invulnerability to themselves or to the party.
And this turned the entire game into everything being just mesmers, guardians and warriors because they could do the most raw DPS. Any other classes could barely find groups.
>>339909954
None of them are more important than the other. If one is more important than another, then the dev has done a poor job of balancing their game.
>tanks and healers unironically thinking their roles take effort
New chart should look like this
>>339912994
Yeah mate my favourite past time is going on the internet and making up stories about my experience. I'm not saying a healer is the be all and end all, all roles are important in the shitty MMO holy trinity but the role which is the most difficult to compensate for is the healer, hence it being the most important.
When you reply don't forget to add your badass remark to show everyone on /v/ how tough you are.
>>339911125
>>339911387
we get it
pride kills everything
DPS are only there to kill the enemies faster. They are completely unrequired to finish the job.
The Tank does less damage so the fight will simply take longer. The healer will then back up the tank.
This does not work with a healer-dps combo because the dps is too squishy.
So basically, in any holy trinity game: The Tank and healers are both equally important. The DPS are peasants that are along for the ride.
>>339913407
We need healers that heal more effectively in melee range. That'll put some pep in their step.
>>339913476
Healers run out of mana resulting in the tank dying if the fight isn't over fast enough, hence the importance of the DPS.
>>339913398
Difficulty =/= importance
>>339911027
this is assuming that only healers can Brez, which isn't true in WoW and probably other MMOs
>>339913476
>The DPS are peasants
You're an idiot, but that's not surprising since you think a trinity is strong with only two parts
>>339913550
>what are mana potions
>play dps
>top meter
>never post meter
>get loot and leave
>>339913476
>The DPS are peasants that are along for the ride.
I'll see you at the enrage timer, friendo.
>>339913550
It would have been better to bring up enrage timers than going OOM
>>339913550
>tank dying
>tank needing heals
Thats not a real tank.
>>339913476
Too many healers and everyone dies.
Too many tanks and healers can't keep up simply because the enemies don't die fast enough.
Dealing damage is the single most important job there is, which is why every class has SOME sort of method of doing it.
Not every class need to take a bunch of damage
Not every class needs a heal.
But every class needs to be able to deal damage.
>>339913664
That's more for solo-play balance.
>>339913581
A group of DPS will fail.
A group of DPS and tanks will fail.
A group of DPS and healers will fail
A group of Tanks and healers will succeed, if slowly.
As such, DPS are the least important class.
>>339913631
The fact that a mechanic has had to be added JUST to make DPS marginally important shows you how unnecessary DPS actually are.
>>339913645
>tank that doesn't pull huge mobs
That's not a real tank.
>>339913645
If tanks completely healed or mitigate damage there wouldn't be a need for healers. The tank's role is to keep aggro and mitigate damage, making it easier on the healer.
>>339913748
>imblying
>>339913737
>A group of Tanks and healers will succeed, if slowly.
Sure, if the healers don't have to manage their mana.
>>339913664
>Dealing damage is the single most important job there is, which is why every class has SOME sort of method of doing it.
>Not every class need to take a bunch of damage
>Not every class needs a heal.
I fully agree with your post. DPS can only do damage, Tanks and healers can do both damage and tank/heal respectively.
As such, DPS are not relevant because they do not bring a unique talent to the table in the way tanks and healers do.
>>339913737
>A group of Tanks and healers will succeed, if slowly.
Incorrect. This assumes healers can constantly outheal damage and have no limit to how long they can perform. It also assumes enemies don't enrage.
>>339913820
If you're a tank that pulls tiny moves at a slow pace then you need to switch class.
>>339913418
I'm not the one using some EPIC reaction images.
There's a reason that you cut healers once you get anywhere near comfortable with a fight.
I'm really excited for your next reaction image to really enhance your shitty post.
>>339911387
Question solved, good DPS is the only necessary role.
>>339910093
Create a better system and get WoW subscriber numbers.
Paid, of course.
I'll even settle for current subscriber numbers instead of the peak.
Let me know when you're done. And remember, you'd be making several million a month at least.
>>339913873
>still implying the same thing, which I never said
Are you retarded m8?
>>339913842
>>339913861
See
>>339913582
Also, again, an enrage timer is added for the simple reason that DPS are otherwise not relevant. A mechanic had to be made specifically to cater to DPS, whereas the default gameplay (namely: The enemy and players deal damage to one another) does not require DPS at all.
An enrage timer is affirmative action in MMO.
>>339913860
>Tanks and healers can do both damage and tank/heal respectively.
Except they can't do it well enough to actually clear content. If what you're saying was true then nobody would ever play a DPS class because they would be superfluous.
But as it turns out DPS classes are the most populated because killing enemies quickly increases the survivability of everyone.
>>339911994
The only reason it's so hard to find a tank is it's the easiest and thus most boring job.
>>339913842
Damage taken doesn't magically increase so each healer has to heal less (by being good at avoiding overhealing or rotating healers) such that if there's any sort of mana regen, sustainability isn't a problem.
>>339910173
Depends on the mob dummy. The tank and healer are most important hands down though. Between those two, it's a toss up depending on the situation.
>>339913940
Tanks that pull tiny mobs have an easier time managing their own health. Tanks that do otherwise depend on their healer. If you're tanking without the help of a healer you're doing it wrong.
>>339914017
>Easiest
When you play tankspank games sure.
>>339913494
fistweaving was killed in wod.
And it was gay anyways.
>>339914002
Enrage timers were implemented to prevent players from getting frustrated at how long fights were taking without DPS. Failing a fight in 10 minutes is not nearly as taxing as failing a fight after 5 1/2 hours.
>play EQ healer
>have to juggle cooldowns between direct heals, HoTs, heal that recovers more based on target's HP, damage wards, death prevention, group heal with timed delay before it procs
>need to prioritize ailment recovery on all targets including myself, this shit has to be done instantly
>i'm still expected to DPS while this is all going on
stop playing games with shit healers
Where did the term Tank come from anyway? Character with a shield charging in and taking all damage = a tank?
>>339914196
Stop playing shit MMOs.
>>339914039
What game are you even using for this hypothetical?
>>339914295
The game he pulled from his ass where healers miraculously have infinite mana bars as long as they're good.
>>339913895
Nah, dps dies.
Good tank can dps.
>>339914065
I think you have autism if you can't comprehend what ive said twice. Youve implied something I have never said.
I never pulled tiny groups. As a dps hybrid me and other dps would kill entire dungeon pulls in seconds, never needing heals. Adding threat level + dps assures agro and kills mobs. Healers were only sometimes needed if undergeared people are present for res.
If you're trying to make a group probably a tanker. DPS is a diamond dozen, healers are a bit easier to find
>>339909954
none can succeed without the others
>>339914006
>Except they can't do it well enough to actually clear content.
Is that why it is tanks, or tank/healer hybrids, that regularly solo raids in Wow for example?
Garrosh got solo killed by a tank, just to give an example.
DPS classes are most populated because people do not want any responsibility. So they pick a role that is not extremely relevant or needed to clear content. In that way, if they fail to do their job, the entire party is not at risk.
Simply ask yourself:
If the healer does not heal, will the group probably wipe? The answer is yes. The tank will be eventually overwhelmed by the incoming damage and die.
If the tank does not tank, will the group probably wipe? The answer is yes, as the DPS are unable to both handle the incoming damage, and keep the healer safe.
If the DPS does not deal damage, does the group wipe? The answer is no. The tank will continue to deal damage to the enemies, which will eventually die.
>>339914146
It is exactly like you say: Before enrage timers were added, DPS were not relevant. Parties took tanks and healers because DPS are not required to complete content. This did result in some groups that were not good at doing their jobs wiping after a long fight.
The enrage timer was thus added to give DPS an artificial way to be useful. And this also made the fights shorter.
I am not disagreeing that DPS make fights take shorter. However, without the enrage timer that was added specifically to make DPS not useless, a DPS is not needed at all in a party.
>tanks and healers realize that most fights depend on one or the other doing their job right
>get to a DPS based fight
>wipe over and over because DPS players are dumb as rocks
>>339909954
tank and healer.
DPS only exist because of enrage timers. if they didn't exist DPS would be useless as you could just have a team of tanks and healers and literally never lose.
>>339913924
I agree. Post more cropped porn
>>339914494
Every time
>DPS have to complete a mechanic to win a fight
>For some strange reason, it's a fight which you wipe over and over on
>>339914478
You're so full of shit. Go fuck off to your magical MMO where DPS is unnecessary.
>>339914561
Usually it's because while you have 4 Tanks/Healers, you have 16/36 DPS that all have to be on the same page.
You can't even get 4 people on Dota 2 to be on the same page try 36 fuckheads who don't speak english.
>>339914478
Yes you fucking idiot if dps don't do good enough damage there are mechanics in play in many boss fights that wipe you.
Don't fucking talk out of your ass for fucks sake.
Anytime a retard like this attempts to know what he's talking about it makes me so fucking mad.
Who cares about old content that gets solo'd?
If we're going by your standard my guild ran 20 DPS and killed Blackfuse in 20 seconds. Fuck off, seriously.
>>339909954
Why isn't the healer bubble pink?
Are there any MMOs with mechanics that allow for really skilled players to solo bosses? I thought Tera would be like playing a tank but I think you still die with no healing
>>339914734
Don't bother. He'll just cry all day about how DPS classes are useless because they kicked his dog once.
I find the
> little rogue with silly daggers/bow does more damage than big guy with sword and shield
meme silly.
>>339909954
What games let me play as a mob?
>notice tank hasn't casted threat on awhile
>proceed to face fuck the healer and dps in front of him as he stands there crying
>>339914871
When was the last time you were mugged at sword point?
>>339914734
>you fucking idiot
>Don't fucking talk
>for fucks sake
>Anytime a retard like this
>makes me so fucking mad
>Fuck off, seriously
Whoa this guy means business
>>339914561
>Kilrogg in HFC
>all tank has to do is hit active mitigation while he casts shred armor
>DPS has to kill adds, stand in the vision circles and move around to not get hit by Death Throes or leave blood too close to him
>for some odd reason, this is the one unpugable fight in lower
really makes you think
>>339914295
Any game with mana regen. In some games like Wrath of the Lich King healers are infinitely sustainable even in normal conditions where they push as much healing as they can possibly do, but let's think of opposite hypothetical example: Let's suppose you have 5 man group content that's intended to be done by 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 damage-dealers but you instead do it with 1 tank and 4 healers. At any given moment, one of the healers can do the healing solo because that's what they are doing when doing the content "legit". Meanwhile, the three other healers can just regenerate and once the first healer runs out of mana, one of the others takes over (and with capable players who can avoid overhealing you don't need to use rotations as a crutch either). For this kind of approach not to work, mana regeneration must be very low indeed.
>>339914927
Uh oh you don't have a response so you'll point something out completely irrelevant to the topic on hand.
Haha kill yourself
>>339914792
You used to be able to do this in Ragnarok Online, of all things, until they made all bosses immune to shit like knockback and gave them superpowerful healing skills and the ability to infinitely respawn mobs.
It was possible to solo bosses with nearly any class if you had the right strategy. Wizards were really great at it through firewall, icewall, and stormgust and Hunters could work with charge arrow and doublestrafe.
You can't really do shit now, Wizard is literally fucked due to not being able to keep anything at bay with wall or gust knockback, and bosses teleport instantly to a random spot on the map if you pin them in icewall. Not even Safety wall really works due to infinite mob respawns tearing through it too fast, shit's fucking stupid.
>>339915028
>implying I'm him
Easy there, hothead. It's only video games.
>>339914671
>>339914734
>FUCK YOU IM DA BEST YOU CANT DO IT WITHOUT ME
You can literally tell if someone is DPS by how mad they get when they realize they aren't needed in a good squad because good healers/tanks can DPS as well and don't serve just a single purpose.
>>339915017
I would never be part of a group that takes 45 minutes of carefully coordinated scheduling to kill something that would have taken 2 minutes with an average party.
Protip: When enemies die faster, everyone takes less damage as a result, and everyone is safer.
>>339914671
>>339914734
Look, I know it is difficult to come to the realization that your job is essentially to make a fight take up less time and the Tank and Healer are the ones that are crucial to actually being able to finish the content.
Again, I think I said repeatedly that an enrage timer was added just to ensure DPS were not useless. Against bosses without this artificial mechanic, DPS are not needed.
I understand that if you are not that vital to the completion of a fight, you don't really bother to understand any of the mechanics of the game entirely.
It is like
>>339914494
>>339914561
>>339914997
Said. If there are mechanics added that might require the DPS to do something they do not understand it and the fight fails. So I won't argue too much with you because as I understand, DPS have trouble grasping fundamental mechanics.
They also apparently curse a lot and are underage but I suppose that comes with the frustration of not actually being able to find a counter-argument, other than "Fuck you" and "Muh enrage timer".
This is Mercy.
Mercy is a doctor (healer).
As a doctor, she has quite the expertise with every part of your being.
Including the size of your most treasured dick.
Your epeeen.
Indeed as she has to watch over you while you struggle to fight in tips odded to your favour and fail miserably at it.
And then you come home and want to be the man.
>>339915143
Like I said, go enjoy your MMO where you get to spend 6 weeks trying to clear a dungeon and continually fail because every time you attempt a boss (with luckily no enrage) your 6 healers end up shitting and pissing themselves from not leaving their chairs for 14 hours.
Meanwhile random pug shitters do the electric slide through the same dungeon 20 times and get 20x the rewards.
>>339914871
I would guess that the guy with the sword and shield uses his sword for more defensive purposes like deflecting or stopping blows rather than straight up attacking. He distracts the enemy so the rogue can get a good strike in.
I don't know much about swordsmanship, but I would think it would be hard to land a good blow against someone who is trying to kill you with their own sword.
>>339914871
I think the idea is that they target vital points with said daggers.bows
>>339915192
I'm so confused now.
You suddenly bring up player error in a discussion about the necessity of a role, are you going to actually make up your mind on what you're trying to bullshit?
Your post offered exactly no valid or new reasoning to your argument, congratulations.
>>339910093
unfortunately removal of the trinity without pushing for role diversity in a different manner (eg: a more complicated system with more roles) causes the group play to become more stale, rather than less
It is unfortunate that we've become so backed on this system that practically every game (even some non-rpg ones) fall back onto it in some way.
In the games that don't (eg: gw2) cause high level group play to favor groups that simply push out the most damage,
as more damage means less time the boss is alive
less time the boss is alive means less mechanics you have to worry about
The trinity might suck, but games are better off with it, than without it, however unfortunate this may be
>>339914792
guild wars 2, all of the boss attacks are avoidable. Some encounters you can't solo, but all of the bosses that don't spawn adds you can
>>339915180
If you look at the line of discussion (>>339913737 etc) it's clearly a theoretical discussion about the absolute necessity of each role.
Then again, when (soft) enrage mechanics were not a thing, it wasn't unheard of to run group setups similar to this. Hell, even in more modern games healers are sometimes stacked to cheese certain encounters relying on soft enrages.
>>339912081
Should we remove gear and simply let skills decide how good players are?
>>339915296
Nah, thats never happened. Like I said good tanks and healers can dps. Every hybrid tank build ive made in mutliple MMOs could output more than half the capacity of maxed DPS, which was on par with common-good DPS.
Maybe you should quit prescribing to conventional bullshit builds because you can't experiment and make something unique.
Stay mad that you aren't necessary. Maybe you are just playing with shitters and am also a shitter.
Tanks have historically been the most important
>>339915536
Because you have not refuted my argument. I was just adding that perhaps because DPS seem to have a typical trait of not understanding things, you might also not understand why DPS are not relevant to the completion of an encounter. And that I understood your anger and frustration in that context.
You keep calling it bullshit but you don't actually offer any new insights.
I am not saying DPS should be removed, or that they don't contribute to making fights last much shorter, but I am saying that they are not a vital role and that Healers and Tanks are.
>>339909954
Depends on the game 2bh. Old WoW would be tanks, new WoW would be dps.
Ranged DPS > Melee DPS > Tank > Healnigger
Marksman pride worldwide
>>339915192
>Against bosses without this artificial mechanic,
all mechanics are artificial, you can add mechanics other than an enrage timer to make DPS matter too. For example on this >>339914997 fight, there are two different adds. One adds a stacking debuff on anyone they damage that will eventually hard kill them no matter how good the healers are, the other is a ball of blood that oozes across the room towards the boss and explodes when it reaches him. Letting either of these live for too long WILL wipe your raid no matter what, regardless of healing, tanking or enrage
>>339914918
lol I haven't been mugged ever. But I assume muggers use knives/pistols rather than swords because they are easy to conceal. Running around the city with a sword just scrams MAD PSYCHO and will cause ppl to call the cops.
>>339915617
No, gear progression is one of those things that needs to exist in a PvE environment. PvP shouldn't be gear based though
>>339915296
I play a healer, I play pvp only, you're going to tell me who's important here.
Who do I have to keep alive?
a) A rogue, his dps and stuns are more important than the rest of the muscle of the team.
b) The tank so we keep the flag.
c) A warlock so he can fear away.
d) The pet of the hunter because it's kinda qt.
d) MYSELF SO YOU AREN'T ALL PANTLESS AND RAPED OVER AND OVER AND OVER BY AN ENEMY WHO ACTUALLY HAS AN ALIVE HEALER.
>>339915561
the problem is that mmotards are incapable of thinking outside the triangle, and whenever you present them with an idea for a game that doesn't use it they complain that it's not a real mmo anymore.
>tanks think they're important
>>339915640
Go do it, man. Stop talking about it and do it. Go run all day long dungeons and see how far that gets you because of your insistence that DPS classes are completely unnecessary.
If you want to stretch bullshit like that out I could just suggest that all content for all MMOs can be cleared with all DPS and no tanks and no healers because the DPS can simply either avoid, dodge, or prevent all damage if they're good enough or lucky enough.
But I'm not making that argument because it's completely unrealistic and unreasonable to expect it to occur. Just like your situation. DPS is necessary to actually win every encounter while still being a game worth playing. What you're describing is an idle skinner box.
>>339909954
Dragon's Dogma online could have done it but they gave that to NEXON
>>339915752
>gear progression is one of those things that needs to exist in a PvE environment.
Why?
>>339915754
>Who do I have to keep alive?
Everyone. Get back to work.
>>339915698
That's actually a good argument, and a pretty good mechanic. I suppose a Tank wouldn't be able to kill those enemies in time if they're fast enough.
That might be a good way to have the trinity and have everyone be equally important.
>>339915754
>I'm a faggot, I play pvp only, you're going to affirm my opinion
>Who do I need to keep alive
>The DPS actually doing the killing, because pvp isnt just staying alive longer than they do
>A tank so the objective isnt lost
>A warlock doing more dps than me
>the ebin lel so randumb pet
>myself because I'm a whore and have multiple tumblr accounts
Neck yourself.
>>339915683
dumbest motherfucker in this thread, no joke
>>339915683
>marksmen
>anything but faggots
nice try but no your basically elf faggots, and thats just the worst
>>339915907
You ALMOST developed "healer eyes" for a second there, m8
>>339915956
Look at this shit-ranked faggot.
Here, look at involuntary healer vision
(tm) revealed to you from another faggot.
>>339915907
Now stfu about role importance when you don't have every perspective at your disposal.
>>339915896
It keeps people playing the game
>>339915896
Because then all encounters would become mechanic based and you can only keep that up for so long
>>339915851
>Go do it man
I already did you autist. Jesus christ, son.
i don't play MMO garbage any more, but I spent about 10 years of my life playing multiple MMOs at one point.
This is shit Ive already done you sperg. Lol. DPS always get the most butthurt in MMOs. They are 90% of the time beta fags who think they are some hot shit, when they can actually be replaced. Its pretty hilarious how consistent this personality is with DPS mains.
>>339916095
people play games like starcraft and counterstrike for over a decade without gear progression or any kind of treadmill mechanics. maybe if mmo gameplay wasn't complete shit people wouldn't need to see bigger numbers to want to keep playing.
>>339909954
Out of all of those healer is the most likely to not do their job, and the most likely to piss their panties when you call them on it.
>>339916095
Killing bosses and raids would let players have cosmetic gear, mounts, fun items.
>>339916175
It's either mechanic based or gearcheck. Gear checks are boring, mechanic based fights are made easier and easier by better gear.
>>339916216
just point them to this post so they realize their actual penis size is very well known to those they want to despise.
>>339915235
We're the only ones keeping you alive here, you hapless pussies, we know how truly "hot shit" you are.
>>339915851
Good tank/healer can DPS well enough. Ive said this multiple times. DPS is just single purpose and thus worth less.
>>339915896
Look at Guildwars 2 where they didn't do that initially: You only got skins, not functionally better gear. People stopped running dungeons and the playerbase began to dwindle.
They had to add in a gear treadmill to keep things going. Of course they fucked up big time and made it into an insanely grindy process that made players see no improvement for months instead of a nice incremental system.
Fuck GW2 was a mess. What a disappointment compared to GW1 (Which also had no gear treadmill but had a very good story mode).
>>339916216
>i don't play MMO garbage any more
Probably because you actively ignore the most effective method to play and instead opt for incredibly boring and time consuming tasks simply because you won't let go of your ridiculous bigotry against people who play DPS classes.
Everyone's got a job to do, and if you're walking around talking shit to people like what they do isn't important then yeah they're going to shit all over your experiences in the game and you'll be left even angrier than when you started. Proof: your whole buttwhine rant.
>>339916335
>Killing bosses and raids would let players have cosmetic gear, mounts, fun items.
Then people who don't get them will whine like the entitled brat they are. The devs will give in eventually and the downfall begins
>>339916392
Not him but I don't play MMOs anymore because nobody makes good MMOs anymore.
Healer.
>>339916343
>well enough
Well enough is not good enough for anyone. Actually run a dungeon without dealing the damage you need to and you'll swiftly realize the game is fucking tedious and boring. Dealing damage quickly is the one constant that keeps a game actually a game and not a waiting simulator.
>>339916396
People already whine, not listening to them is not impossible. Case in point the moose mount from heroic Archimonde.
>>339916392
>Everyone's got a job to do
Exactly, and don't you shit talk the healer because that's as intimate as it gets, he's seeing each and every one of your mistakes and fixing them.
>>339916439
Fair point, but if an MMO came out with only tank classes and healer classes would you play it?
Probably not unless the content was made easy enough and quick enough for that sort of balance to work.
>playing 14
>If I tank, the dungeons take a thousand years because the healers won't dps, and the dps are fucking terrible. Nothing I can do will speed the run up any faster.
>if I heal, the tank dies to a breathe of fresh air. Can barely deeps or the tank dies, then we all die. Actual dps are functionally retarded, run still takes 55 minutes.
>if I DPS, things actually die but then the healer lets the tank die or the tank whiffs a cooldown/pull and goes down. Run takes longer due to constant wipes.
Why does nobody in ff14 actually fucking try? God forbid you put even a single iota of effort into this run, because I love having runs take 55 minutes due to people being asleep at the wheel.
>>339915679
Okay let's count the fights in a recent raid that required DPS and would have never worked with out.
Let's take BRF.
Gruul: Able to be done with your idea of a reasonable comp.
Oregorger: Needs to kill the boxes or he would roll and stay in the phase forever and murder your raid.
Blast Furnace: killing the elementals on the casters to kill them and needing to hurrying kill said casters.
Retard Twins: Stampers
Female Sword Orc: Able to be done
Kromag: hands need to be killed or you die.
Beastmaster: Adds need to die and last phase is a burn phase.
Train: Massive amounts of adds that need to be killed fast, or boys will heal and eventually die to trains.
Iron Maidens: need DPS to jump over and stop the group from getting 1 shot by the cannon.
Blackhand: Massive burn phase last phase and the balconies need to die ASAP.
Please stop being delusional and thinking DPS aren't needed 100% of the time.
>>339915561
The thing is that the trinity is some made up abstract form of combat that doesn't represent real life combat at all. That's not inherently a problem, the problem is that developers don't want to learn from real combat to create systems that break the mold. In reality combat is one of two things, tactics and technique, with strategy being its own thing. Tactics is control of the battlefield, which requires groups working cohesively to control spacing, ground, flanks and all sorts of other things. Technique is actually the melee and ranged combat. The trinity focuses too much on technique to the point where you have made up roles, and the only forms of tactics in most MMOs are things AOE spells controlling space, which is pointless because movement and space means pretty much nothing in MMOs.
>>339916392
You are literally retarded and entirely too butthurt that a decade ago I didnt require people who played your class in a video game.
You might want to re-evaluate your life.
Also this.
>>339916439
>>339914478
>garrosh got soloed by a tank
>blood dk
>tank
>blood dk
>not tank, healer, and dps
it was also normal mode have fun doing no dps mythics
>>339916490
>Well enough is not well enough!
Why are you so mad? Lol, did I trigger your DPS e-peen envy?
>>339916563
I don't see how that could possibly work, I mean you need someone to do damage or shit just lives forever.
Like, are you waiting for an explosion to happen or are you waiting for the mob to hit itself? I don't understand.
Full party of DPS that can soft tank with one healer and a buff support is superior.
TP and MP burn parties were fun as fuck in FFXI.
Holy trinity literally killed the concept of fun.
Why is who so against buffer classes? just come up with 3 buffer spec, each spec bring all and the same buffs, and make people decide how many buffers and what buffs use.
>>339916678
XI had a robust class system but you still had tanks, healers and DD. You just also had buffers and debuffers and pullers and hate managers and thieves that could affect drop rates and white mages that could reduce the amount of EXP you lost when you died.
>>339916571
Wasn't my class, clown. You think people need to be personally offended to correct your stupid ideas? You're acting like taking out a crucial factor in a genre of games like it's completely superfluous.
Tanks are completely useless in a make believe MMO where enemies don't have aggro; they simply do the same amount of damage to everyone regardless.
Healers are completely useless in a make believe MMO where all players regenerate their own hit points over time and can heal with their own skills or items.
It all depends on how the game is balanced and it can totally work!
All of that is possible but it would make the games LESS FUN. That's the point. You can talk all the shit you want but your idea would ruin the game and it's why games don't fucking do it; especially not anymore.
>>339915896
Not him, but I'd argue it's quite crucial for satisfying progression because improved gear indirectly nerfs the encounters. After all, when gear is involved, each group gets to do the content when it is challenging within the context of their skill level (modified by how optimal their group setup is etc).
Consider this, for example: An encounter is designed to be at the very edge of mathematical possibility with the most ideal group composition. It'll be challenging for the hardcore, but everyone else? They'll never be able to defeat it. Even the most skilled groups won't, unless they use exactly the same group composition as the other guys. Or let's suppose the tuning is more lenient. It's a pushover for the hardcore and they'll defeat it in a few tries max.
Moreover, gear is one additional avenue for character-building/ specialization/theorycrafting. For example, the balancing act between threat/damage/guaranteed mitigation/effective health/avoidance/whatever for tanks might be an interesting one. Gear also causes the social dynamic to change (for example, groups that reward loot to players who benefit from it the most are expected to have greater success, while other groups might use it to provide an incentive to staying loyal to the group by prioritizing their veteran players) and social interaction is a key part of MMOs.
>>339915896
Not him but it's also essential to PvP in an MMORPG. What's there to do if you're not leveling up and getting gear? Nothing? Seriously what the fuck would you be doing?
>>339915937
for all the shit they (mostly deservedly) get, Blizzard is pretty good at designing raids with mechanics that make DPS necessary. There's a fair few fights in HFC that need DPS for reasons other than lolenrage
>>339909954
All of them you scrub.
Thats the design.
>>339916836
FFXI played more like a traditional RPG in its class system rather than the holy trinity MMO system.
Between the oddball ways you could utilize class skills and the sub job system you ended up with shadow tanking, TP burn parties with no tanks, stun parties, etc.
Only HNM/Sky/Sea/Dynamis content ever got bogged down in a strict dogmatic way of play and that usually required you to hot swap alliance parties for buffs/debuffs/skill chain+magic burst hits.
>>339917037
Making new female characters of different races, removing all of their armor, and doing dance emotes in populated areas.
What the fuck else is there? Gear? Why would I want to PUT ON clothes?!?
>>339916909
>everyone else?
They can do easier content, they can get better. Not everyone does the same content even with the gear system there is now.
> the balancing act between threat/damage/guaranteed mitigation/effective health/avoidance/whatever for tanks might be an interesting one.
This can be achieved by spells and skills.
>Gear also causes the social dynamic to change
Everything you said can be applied to cosmetic loot.
>>339917037
>What's there to do if you're not leveling up and getting gear?
Having fun, beating new bosses, getting cosmetic gear, defeat the other factions in pvp.
>>339917172
Your argument got dookied on.
>>339911165
thank you for not being retarded and understanding the core reason the trinity exists. the only way to remove it is by removing the need to eliminate the numbers entirely, which is quite impossible considering programs need numbers to make calculations.
>>339911165
Wow someone who isn't brain dead is in this thread.
>>339916879
>a game is LESS FUN if there are more than 3 exact class builds
I prefered games where changing your gear and utilizing different skill trees actually had an effect instead of every class type resulting in the exact same, archaic "UR A TANK OR DPS OR HEALS". Make a good hybrid class and you can eliminate one of the other classes in a party as long as the other people aren't shit and know how to debuff, dps, and attack weaknesses in bosses.
Basically, git gud.
>>339917118
>>339917150
First of all there's better ways to fap to digital girls then to push this into MMORPGs. It has literally over-run MMORPGs and some other genres of video games as well. If an MMORPG doesn't have an extremely robust character creator where you can command the size of the character's hips, chest and crotch area it's somehow assumed dead on fucking arrival. That's the general reception it gets, anyway. It's one of the main reasons why MMOs are so shit today.
Second what's the point of beating bosses and PvP if you're not becoming more powerful? What's the motivation? Do you expect every boss fight to have a tidbit of story or lore or something attached to it? That would be absurd. Or an achievement? I'm sorry to tell you that achievements are for fucking casuals and I can prove it. Have you ever seen an achievement for having the world first boss kill? Or for being the best duelist on the server? Or an achievement for having the first drop off a specific boss? No, right? It's usually "Walk two steps! Bing! Achievement! Yaaay!"
Lastly who gives a fuck about cosmetic gear? It doesn't mean anything. Sure it probably looks better but you usually didn't earn it through any strenuous means and it doesn't do anything to make you more powerful.
>>339917548
That has 0 to do with players and everything to do with the game's design.
>>339917575
>Second what's the point of beating bosses and PvP if you're not becoming more powerful? What's the motivation?
How many times do I have to say it? you can get rewards, just not gear that makes you better.
>>339917693
I really want what you say to be viable. However, it has been tried with Guildwars 2 and it didn't work. People stopped playing.
>>339916569
All of BRF heroic was done with only blood DKs
>>339916570
It would be nice to see debuffs have other effects based on who you used them on, like in older fantasy games, fire for example, it stops trolls from regenerating, strikes fear into those on the other end and ultimately can be extinguished with water or smothering in other ways
Too few games in general let you stop drop n roll
the last one I can remember was Loadout
>>339909954
Tank
They usually have some self heals, tank durability and some dps to grab aggro
An tank tanky enough can kill any enemy, it would just take them a very long time.
Dps has no self heals and even if healer can deal damage, they take more damage than a tank would because of the mitigation all tanks have, so the healer's heals become less efficient, she runs out of mana and dies.
>>339910173
Dps has no damage mitigation so he takes more damage, healer has to use more mana and runs oom.
Tank has low damage so the healer has to keep casting for a longer time but you need to spend less mana per second than in the healer + dps scenario.
It's easier to kill a mob with tank + healer than dps + healer, but both tank and healer need each other.
Basically tank + healer is the OTP and dps is the party cuck that does the button mashing while the tank and healer ERP.
>>339917915
Good thing I'm not talking about heroic.
Literal babies can do LFR and that doesn't mean anything.
>>339917693
BUT WHY?! What the fuck sort of rewards would warrant you wanting to do these things? Literally every MMORPG I've ever played has had at least the chance at getting some sort of improvement to your character. Literally every single MMORPG I've ever played and there's a lot of them. Too many to list.
To sharpen my point back when I played WoW most people who raided did so to become better at PvP. They didn't raid because they enjoyed raiding, they raided because they wanted to become better then the motherfucker on the other team.
The whole idea reeks of this sort of... all-inclusive mentality where everyone should always be equal at all times. The whole premise of an MMORPG is to make your character grow. Yes, some characters are going to be weaker than others. Deal with it. It's not like that character too can't improve.
>>339917601
Players don't normally do hybrid characters because they think there is no benefit to unconventional stats or are stuck in that same mindset that they can only do one job the best they can do because thats hust how it werkz! Experimenting in MMOs was fun. Tank rogues that could beat warriors/tanks two tiers above their skill/equip level, tank dps that can out-DPS most DPS. Things no one expected and they got their asses handed to them or shown I could do their job as well or better.
Good hybrid DPS can tank, good hybrid tank can DPS. It has everything to do with the player. If the game is designed where there is no area for innovative class alterations its shit.
>>339918057
That's only because mmo players have been conditioned and guided into what is more convenient for the developers, and they accept it because it's what they are are used to.
>>339918095
Once a fucking gain that has nothing to do with the players. It has everything to do with the game's design. Your last sentence illustrates my exact fucking point. If the game is not designed around it then hybrid classes are stinking hot garbage. If they are designed around it then the players will naturally go there because it's the better choice.
Players gravitate towards the trinity when the trinity is the most efficient and effective method to play.
Players will always do that.
So once again in case you only read the first and last sentence of my post, IT HAS FUCK ALL TO DO WITH THE PLAYERS.
>Be tank
>Some asshole DPS pulls shit
>Team wipe
>Kicked for being shit tank
>Be healer
>Tank bites off more than he can chew
>Team wipe
>Get kicked for shit heals
>Be DPS
>Some asshole, myself included, fucks up
>Everyone blames Tank and Healer
>Not kicked
>>339909954
Well in a boss fight everyone is equally important.
For everything else tank is king.
Literally every game is easiest when you are the tank.
>>339918276
>be me
>green text stuff that doesn't happen in hope to get responses
>>339918412
>Implying
>>339917960
expect boss has enrage timer and tank cant do enough damage.
>>339918246
Okay, maybe but I'm asking you for an alternative while trying to explain why "no levels, no loot" doesn't really make a very interesting MMORPG unless the gameplay is extremely PvP-central and actually fun.
It just seems like the sort of thing someone who wants to avoid PvP would say without realizing that would mean an even-more PvP-central game.
Crowd Control.
>>339909954
DPS that can heal itself
>>339909954
A DPS that can one shot a mob doesn't need a tank or a healer
DPS wins
>>339918515
>in a 1v1 boss fight
>>339918457
>It just seems like the sort of thing someone who wants to avoid PvP would say without realizing that would mean an even-more PvP-central game.
I said it myself that pvp would be one of the alternatives to lack of gear progression.
>" doesn't really make a very interesting MMORPG unless the gameplay is extremely PvP-central
The other solution is that fights are as they are now, with skills, spells, tactics, and having to know what to do.
Literally the only difference is that you wouldn't see bigger numbers as you go on.
Top 5 world raider here.
Healer=DPS > Tank
>>339917150
Not everyone necessarily "deserves" to do all content but without indirect nerfs from gear in place, you're providing a satisfying difficulty level for a VERY small slice of the skill spectrum. When gear is involved, everyone doing the content will be challenged to a similar subjective degree (and indirect nerfs from gear available prior to any particular boss only go so far: some encounters will be forever off-limits for worse groups).
All customization is good and gear is another layer. Of course, you could technically obtain the same results from passive stats as well, but that's kinda boring in comparison and isn't flexible the same way (being able to switch around gear a bit for each encounter).
Cosmetic look doesn't bring the good of the team into equation. Moreover, all equipment has visuals while only some players care about cosmetics so it's an incentive for more players, especially when you again remember the good of the team (if you only care about cosmetics, once you get your desired set, you have no incentives to do ANY content, while you are helping yourself by helping others gearing up).
>>339913296
But takes a long time to complete one single dungeon and makes the game boring.
I did that in Dragon Nest and got bored at level 53.
>>339918638
>Top 5 world raider here.
what a meaningless and useless post
>>339909954
Tank that can output damage. can literally sub the healer for items
>>339918057
Everyone deserves a slice of the same pie, regardless if they put 1 hour in the game or 8 hours.
People with _actual lives_ shouldn't be punished for not being basement-dwelling nerds who make the game their real life. That's why microtransactions and limiting the amount of EXP/items you gain in a day are a good solution, because it helps level the playing field.There are people who actually believe this.
>>339918643
>you have no incentives to do ANY content
The incentive is letting other people in your guild/friend list get the stuff they want. It's collecting crafting material for your profession.
> you're providing a satisfying difficulty level for a VERY small slice of the skill spectrum
No, proper developers would be able to give adequate challenge for everyone.
Can we just all agree that the original skills-based system that Star Wars Galaxies had was by far the most revolutionary and best MMO system ever?
And that once they went with a Holy Trinity (and made Jedi just a starter class, pic related) it was ruined?
>>339918736
Means my opinion heavily out values yours because I have the most experience with this subject.
>doing Toiletland raid
>Jimmy won't heal us
>Melonhead doesn't stunlock
>Ed doesn't go tank
>>339918781
My idea goes directly against this, loot getting better and better is what allows casuals to do harder content (even if at a later time).
>>339918270
What's your point anon? Besides being unreasonably mad? You are literally going off in mad-tangents.
Your initial argument was that I don't play MMOs any more because I didnt play like you would prefer and that alternative builds ruin a game. You are literally retarded m8.
I'm sorry you are mad that Ive played many MMOs until complete endgame often disregarding youre autistic need to use every class exactly how everyone else does.
Again, you might want to re-evaluate your life investing so much emotion into how some random stranger on the internet played MMOs a decade ago.
>>339918670
Not in my experience, always ran dungeons fast and not reliant upon specific class types. Get better party members or better solo gear.
>>339913476
>squishy
STOP DELETE THIS MEME RIGHT NOW I WON'T LET YOU DO IT
They're all important. There's a reason they're all essential.
A sort of inflated importance is placed on tanks because there is always a shortage of them.
>>339918827
>didn't say the game
>didn't specify whether "top 5" means guild or player and how a player can even be top 5 at something
>no proofs
kill yourself
>one role to deal damage
>two roles to soak damage
Why are tank and healer separate?
>>339918057
Not the guy you were talking too but.
>when I played WoW most people who raided did so to become better at PvP
That's false, while the numbers have gone down over time even in vanilla the crossover between raiders and consistent pvp has never been that high in either direction.
On topic there is no most important role because the trinity evolved naturally it wasn't designed.
Because mmo (and p&p-rpgs) combat is numerically based it makes sense; one guy spends more points on defensive traits so the other guys can ignore them because they expect to be taking little to no damage while the third guy takes all the healing shit.
>>339909954
You need all 3 roles
There is no more important role
Remember when mages were mages, warriors were warriors and priests were priests and there were classes in MMOs and not 3 classes with different colours?
>>339918754
>Tanks that can survive hits while also being able to deal meaningful damage and items can keep a tank with no survivability alive against meaningful content.
Whoever designed that game needs to be shot.
>>339910776
You deal less damage than a designated damage build and are less tanky than the designated tank build. Great for solo, but you are useless in group content.
>>339910308
It could have worked but the SJWs ruined everything as usual. I liked doing dungeons though. We had a thief that did okay damage and was spamming stealth to help us skip mobs, a phalanx warrior that did okay damage and buffed everyone with like thirty different buffs, we had elementalist who did amazing damage and literally nothing else and the fourth guy who was usually a random guy paying us to do the dungeon for him. We didn't need a tank or a healer because everyone could heal himself and all of the relevant incoming damage was telegraphed. We needed utility though. It was great.
The thing we had in common was that we could all do damage, maybe even solo bosses if we played well. Elementalist did a little bit more and would probably get replaced for a class with similar damage and more utility. There really wasn't a holy trinity. More like holy eightity? You didn't want more dps, more tanks, more heals, you wanted more warriors, more guardians, more thieves. Does that make sense?
PvP had a different holy trinity where you had support guys who spammed buffs in full tank gear, power guys who did physical damage with crits and all that, condition damage guys who did damage over time
So supports charged first, condition guys spread their conditions everywhere and then physical damage guys killed what remained. You needed all three of those in your team because supports were immortal and their buffs were huge but they did no damage. Power guys had burst and simple, unconditional damage but were squishy as fuck. Condition guys were somewhat tanky and did way more damage than power builds because condition damage is not mitigated by armour/toughness but they were vulnerable to condition removal which most classes had a fair amount of and supports literally shat it out of every orifice.
>>339918625
>pvp would be one of the alternatives to lack of gear progression
It's not an alternative. It's simply a method of describing who you're fighting or what you're competing against (player versus environment, player vs player.) A game with a lack of gear progression would probably be mostly PvP because PvE encounters would either be way too easy or way too hard. And not only that but the entire world - if based wholly on PvP - would have to change and mold to a player-driven story, economy, relations and so on. Not only is this difficult to achieve but also impossible to police. The moment a GM steps in they're going to be playing favorites for somebody and they'll have very large consequences. And while this sounds extremely appealing to me it's also extremely difficult to pull off properly. In-fact it's never been done.
PvP doesn't even need to be balanced. Balance is a word that's thrown around too much when talking about MMORPGs. Someone played more than you and got luckier with drops, therefor they have much better odds than beating you. That's why you team up with other players or come up with new strategies, or spend time becoming better geared.
>>339919026
I was actually talking specifically about Vanilla since raiding guilds and shit became mostly irrelevant once BC hit. But shit was pretty competitive back then. Were there hardcore raiders who only raided? Yes. Were there hardcore PvPers that only PvP'd? Yes, but not successfully (since you needed PvE items to be good in PvP.) In-fact anyone who did PvP very seriously knew this and at least attempted it.
And from personal experience I'd say that healing is the most interesting role as it becomes the most intimate, as another anon pointed out. They watch everyone's mistakes and patches them up. It doesn't make them the best or most noble class but certainly the most interesting and intimate.
>>339911165
>he forgot "prevent damage"
>he samefagged his own piss poor analysis
There are several ways developers can and have added more roles than the holy trinity. People just spazz out because at this point they want to "play the healer" in the same way people in shooters cry if they cant "snipe". In the end developers will always cater to these players as deviation from expectations is both risky and expensive.
>>339911027
>neither TANK or DPS can revive HEALER, battle ends
one of my favorite things about ff14's summoner is being able to rez shitters
>>339918449
>"DPS and healers can't solo shit but tanks can do it, what do we do?"
>"People are replacing DPS in groups with tanks and healers, what do we do?"
>"Oh I know enrage timers"
It's an external mechanic designed specifically to make dps not the ultimate cuck class and force people to take them. Nobody would use DPS classes if there were no enrage timers.
>>339910308
They didn't, they just made everyone play the fucking same
The trinity is cancer because it forces classes who should be different to play the fucking same
And im one of those crazy nutfucks who actually played a paladin in vanilla and hated that they turned my class into a fucking warrior with mana
>>339913221
>some one saved your crop
WEIRD FEEL BRo
>>339911027
>neither TANK or DPS can revive HEALER, battle ends
in WoW, death knights and non-healing druids can still battle rez, and if one death wipes your group, you're shit anyway
>>339919341
Kill yourself immeidately
>>339919260
>a tank
>no survivability
What a neat assumption fabricated out of thin air.
>>339919341
Not at all. I was better at tanking than most tanks, also with more hp from supplemental equips. No one knew I was statted for dmg until they saw me DD while tanking. Also did insanely larger amounts of damage than similar level/gear tanks obviously, so groups or solo was win/win. Completed all endgame content in 3-4 MMOs with unique hybrid classes that had never been attempted before, with lots of fail builds as well before finding the right spec/gear.
MMOs are just a shit timesink desu. Better to at least play a variety of games instead of life-eating MMOs as to not develop autism.
>>339919565
it happens to me a lot. people love cropped porn.
None of those roles matter.
They're the cornerstone of a shit MMO.
Trinities suck.
It's way funner when you get to have all sorts of crazy stuff.
Here's all the majorly different highly effective archetypes I've seen so far in Ring Runner:
>Clinger
>Poltergeist
>Imploder
>Exploder
>Chain heater
>Shield & healing network
>Batter
>Flyby bomber
>Gemini bomber
>Immobile tank
>Cloud of exploding decoys
>takes-you-out-for-a-delicious-BBQ
There's probably loads more, but the problem is that the multiplayer is dead so all but the top two and the bottom three were ones I learned were effective through my own experimentation, and I'm a shit pilot so things not included in this list like webm related might be effective if piloted by someone better.
In fact, this list is definitely lacking in designs that are based on raw piloting skill for that reason. Hardest to fly is probably the last one (Saw someone else use it); what it does is fly into melee range, apply a gemini beacon to a ship, then use the gemini beacon to activate a grapple as it flies away leaving a trail of fire it drags the enemy through.
I swear I saw that guy drawing pentagrams of fire with that ship, he was so good at flying it.
>>339919767
In your example (real or otherwise) tanks can allocate their abilities/stats/gear/talents/traits in such a way that they can still tank content while dealing consistent dps and stay alive with healing items.
That's shit game design and bad balance even if it's a design that only exists in your head.
>>339920198
>unit has chain attacks
>NEW ROLE
>unit has cloud attacks
>NEW ROLE
>unit has bomb attacks
>NEW ROLE
>unit has FLYING bomb attacks
>NEW ROLE
Yeah sorry but this doesn't work if the game in question tries to have any sort of depth. Saying those things are roles is like saying that every single Dota or LoL hero is its own class/role. At the end of the day you still give damage and still mitigate damage.Also there's a reason your game is dead
>>339920501
>I DONT LIKE THE GAMES YOU PLAYED IT DOESN'T COUNT! THEY ARE SHIT!
>subjective opinions
Righty-o bud! You don't happen to be an SJW do you? Kek. Go back to whatever shit games you play.
>>339920704
Lambs are such sluts for video games and dick.
>>339918276
Maybe because you're a shit tank/healer
Or you're too much of a cuck. When team wipes you need to out the blame on somebody. Tanks and healers are harder to find since everyone plays dps for muh epeen, so they don't want to upset the bull or the wife.
Whenever I play tank and we wipe, I just blame the lowest damage dps, even if it's my fault. Fucker gets kicked out before he gets to say a word.
You see, DPS cucks use damage meters as the ultimate measure of a player. After many years we've managed to convince them that maybe this doesn't apply to tanks and healers but they still dps-judge the fuck out of each other. They also don't pay attention to anyone buy themselves so they won't know that I stood in the fire.
The only person that will ever know is the healer and she won't turn on her lover.
>>339920502
They are distinct roles, because how much protection they need, what they can harm, and how much they can harm varies wildly.
For example, a chain heater can disable an entire spire just by spamming protovoltaic arc but it has mediocre DPS and defence.
A cloud of exploding decoys needs no protection, and is very destructive, but trivial to escape.
A poltergeist might have the tools to take down even the toughest ship, but it won't be exceptional in general.
An immobile tank can just sit in place and be virtually untouchable, but of course there's the problem that it's not moving while tanking.
They may just sound like separate classes, but they each have their own wildly different roles.
An immobile tank wouldn't fit into the "tank" role in an obvious way for example. It's able to tank extremely well, but only if it doesn't have to move much, making it more of a goalkeeper. That's completely different to a more agile tanking unit that functions as a guardian.
>>339919683
t. Necromancer
I'm sorry nobody wanted you
>>339919767
I was a phalanx warrior statted with a mix of power, precision, vit and toughness. I got 100% critical for permanent 25 might and I never had to dodge. The best thing is that nobody will know because no damage meters
>Buffers, Debuffers, and Crowd Controllers are either non-existent or no longer needed due to power creep in all current MMOs.
>>339911027
Who needs healers when you can just lifesteal.
Depends on game mechanics. Like in WoW there is usually no other way than go with trinity so they are equal. In GW2 they are uneven usually and DPS is best way to go.
>>339920965
Tanking and healing is just boring, which is why no one plays it.
generic mmo roles are cancer
not to mention the gameplay in those games is generally awful as well
>>339921243
What? Crowd control is always great. You will wipe on trash in mythic without it
Focus groups decided buffers/debuffers are UNFUN play styles because you have to rely on the most retarded of all the retards in your group - DPS
>>339921316
>Press 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 as tank, receive threat and damage reduction
>Press 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 as healer, receive heals and buffs
>Press 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 as damage dealer, receive damage
You're all doing the exact same thing. Why is pressing keys and making green numbers appear over your tank's head somehow less fun to you than pressing keys and making red numbers appear over the head of the boss?
>>339920704
What's the point of having group content if everyone can do everything themselves what's the point of playing a multiplayer game where the focus is group content?
It sounds like the games you like to play aren't MMOs.
>>339921453
>wanting to play an omega class like Buffers that are solely dedicated to sucking dick of people who actually play the game
Might as well call those numbers in the public restrooms if you just want your and your wife's daughter's stomach full of jizz.
>>339921243
I miss playing dedicated CC classes. I always found them the most fun in MMOs, and they were the best at saving your group from stupid mistakes. Puller accidentally grabbed too many mobs? AoE sleep. DD accidentally broke a mez? Petrify it until your group's finished burning the current mob down. Your tank is shitty and is taking a year to notice the mob raping your healer? Got that shit on lock.
>>339921316
Healing is boring I'll give you that. Sit at the back and cycle your most mana efficient heals on who needs it, sometimes using a less efficient one if needed. Literally point and click adventure with some addons
Dps has to not fuck up chain of abilities and not stand in the fire. This is all you need to be a good dps. Sure I've seen some god tier dps players but they were good because they could do things that weren't dps related and usually didnt top the dps meter because of that.
People don't like tanking because it's the most responsible role. If you fuck up, everybody dies. some people don't know how to shift the blame. You have to interact with your healers to ask for external defensive cooldowns which is difficult for antisocial DPS autists. People rely on you to be online on every raid night because it's hard do replace a tank your team is used to while a missing DPS can just be filled by a random with proper gear. You have to pay attention to everyone in the raid in case someone gets fixated on. You need to keep the boss in a good place so others can do their jobs without standing in fire.
Being a tank is a hard and thankless job but the look on your healer's faceas you penetrate heris worth it
>>339921979
It's not even that, I'm all for sucking dick as long as it's glorious tank dick.
Buffers and debuffers literally suck disgusting inferior dps dick. All two inches of it.
>play a mythic geared paladin retribution paladin
>ret is top 5 dps in the game
>easily the most competent dps in my guild
>I am literally obsolte
>not the shitty "figuratively literal" obsolete, real ass obsolete
>all because the burst you do within the first 15 seconds of the fight means more than anything on 90% of fights
>arcane mages, sub rogues and MM hunters are literally all you need and what most mythic guilds want specifically because blizzard has no idea how to balance stronger classes
This is why having utility is important, when every class just sorta starts being the same the top level is nothing but the highest dps
If dps is so unimportant, then why are tank and healing classes given the option to spec dps?
>>339923039
>Ranged damage dealers having higher dps than melee damage dealers.
Non-WoW player here, can anyone explain this to me? Why would anyone play a melee damage dealer and deal with boss AoEs and having to run into melee with every mob when you could do more dps by playing a ranged DD and not dealing with any of that?
>>339923343
Because all ranged dps can do is ranged dps. While melee classes like rogue/assasin have more utilities, like stealth or cc.
>>339923613
Except mage has stealth and CC
>>339923724
and MM hunter
>>339923168
That's a good point. Fucking smug ass goat. Have my rare Tifa.
>>339923724
>Mage
>CC
Polymorph doesn't affect the vast majority of boss adds that need CC.
>>339923168
There are tanking and healing classes? Rather there are classes that can preform more than 1 role
>>339923897
and what boss adds need to be actively CCed mid fight in HFC?
I'll tell you exactly how many2
>>339923343
They have no sense of balance at the top level
What if I play WAR on ffxiv? I can self heal, tank, and do lots of damage!
>>339924519
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/GBMhWFQ1c2946ftL#fight=4&type=damage-done
This is the world we live in
>>339909954
I can tell you which is the LEAST important, since two of them can do anything just fine without the third, just way slower.
Can you guess which one?
>>339924615
and people say vanilla had trash balance
>average healer in this thread
>>339909954
It's a trinity no one is more important.
Tank Stops DPS taking damage, Healer repairs Tank, DPS kill boss before healer runs out of mana.
If one job fails all the others do to. That said a game can be designed around just DPS but the same can't be said for the other roles.
>>339909954
healer, it's also the most fun
>>339924762
muh warriors doing 10% more damage than rogues thoret is the 5th best overall dpsthe highest on that fight is ranked 350~
>>339924873
>healer runs out of mana
There are mana regen mechanics for that. Healer is supposed to be able to keep the heals up for however long is necessary with a good rotation and a competent tank. Good DPS is just a quality of life issue
>>339924808
>not helping the party on and off the battlefield with sexual healing
someone has to take a dick for the party, i guess you dps guys are too much of a fag to suck a cock.
>>339925258
Spoiler Warning:If you are doing an MMO fight where either healer mana or berserk timers are not a problem, you are doing easy MMO fights.If most/all the fights in your MMO have this issue, you are playing an Babbys First Easystyle MMO.
>>339912981
>leveling dps
>queue in DF
>sit in queue for 5 to 15 mins
>leveling tank
>instantqueues
>>339910173
Not true, I've managed to get some boss with tank and dps party before.
>>339925397
Pathetic. This is literally you.
>>339909954
Since it is a trifecta, neither, all are equally interdependent.
>>339909954
Depends on the game. In theory, DPS would be the most important since you can't win if you can't do damage. This doesn't really apply to a lot of games though.
>>339925725
Fuck that's hot
>>339925725
>he doesn't play vidya with a dildo and vibrator
this is why you'll never have what it takes to be a healer
>>339909954
>playing as a tank or a healer
>ever
How can anybody be so fucking beta? Fucking videogames are there to make you scape from the boring reality and to empower you. If you want to act like a support, you have fucking real life for that already.
>Team is full of assholes
>Get to a boss fight
>Decide to stop healing so they all die>They win anyway
>>339926143
videogames are an escape from reality,
you don't play support in game because you're already someone's bitch irl
>>339926269
So your holding the group hostage
>>339926607
They started it.
>>339926269
>Leech tanking a dungeon
>Group fucks up optional challenge objective that has to be set-up long before boss room, so when we get to boss room I go ahead and start it
>Group complains about needing to do the challenge, tell them we can't, they don't believe me and run all the way back through the dungeon, leaving me alone to fight the boss saying "Just leave him, he'll die."
>Self-heal through boss and get him down to 50% alone before they realize I'm right and run all the way back
>Lots of apologies and compliments
>>339925443
So basically every MMO on the market? Gotcha
>>339919542
Stupid argument that could be made just as well against tanks and healers. If there were no need for mitigation then tanks would be useless. If the game were based around complete personal responsibility for avoiding damage and recovering HP then dedicated healers would be useless.
Everything about an encounter in a game using the trinity involves mechanics that force you to take them all. They are no more or less important than one another for progression. Role elitism is cancer personified.
>>339911165
>Support classes and hybrid classes simply mix and match but are inevitably less effective at fulfilling the 3 basic roles.
Can confirm. I played Paladin in WoW.
>There are several ways developers can and have added more roles than the holy trinity.
>and have added more roles
Such as? I like the idea of a "prevent damage" role.
>>339909954
Neihter, hybrid chars combining their roles is the best system.
>>339927104
Before WoW came along and made everything about tank-heal-damage there were lots of different roles. In Everquest one of the most important classes were Enchanters as they were the only ones that could effectively fill a crowd control role. In other games dedicated buffers and debuffers were also common. Why bring a fifth damage-dealer, effectively increasing your group's damage by 20%, with your group when you could instead bring a buffer who can increase everyone's damage by 50% or a debuffer who can make a mob take 30% more and deal 30% less damage?
>>339927734
Because no one will be playing the buffer or debuffer because it's boring as fuck to have your whole job revolve around throwing up a buff or debuff occasionally.
WoWbabbies are the worst
>>339927964
>he has never played Professor, FS High Wizard, High Priest, Gypsy, or Clown in Ragnarok Online
Full pleb. Inexcusable.Most classes in Ragnarok PvP are support with only a few actually dealing damage. Still hands down the most fun MMO I have ever played, with the highest skill ceiling.
>>339928110
Never played RO, but I remember hearing about a class from there, I think it was dancer or something, that's absolutely indispensable, but that absolutely no one wants to play because it's boring as hell.
>>339928280
>Gypsy (transcendent class of dancer)
>"Boring as hell"
Only if you are a shitter.
In high-level PvP Gypsy is mad fun to play, because it allows you to wreck the shit out of other guilds with debuffs, through deception and clever movement.
>Playing Healer
>At boss in raid
>Tank taking an anal pounding from the boss like a good little slut
>Suddenly mobs spawn
>Tank bursts into tears "its too much" he sobbs pitifully "they will split me in half" as tears and snot runs down his face
>His tears arouse me, i flip a copper into the croud of gibbering DPS peons
>They start to squable and scramble to grab the copper, like a flock of pigeons fighting over breadcrumbs.
>One plucky DPS finally emerges, clutching his newfound wealth, he knows what to do.
>I unzip my huge manhood, at first i see a glimmer of fear in his eyes but he quickly gets to work, sucking as if his life depends on it (it does)
>"Enough" my majestic voice booms like thunder.
>With a single movement of my hand I push the DPS filth to the ground and aim my throbbing erection towards the Tank who is now hardy conscious
>"Let there be light" The sheer grandeur of my voice causes the Boss to momentarily pause
>I shoot my Divine Healing Cum all over the face of the tank
>"T-t-t-t-t-thank you Master" the Tank whimpers as he slurps and gobbles up my life giving jiz
mfw
>>339917960
>DPS
>No damage mitigation
What game? Most modern MMO's nowadays give you the tools to survive shit even as a DPS.
>>339926829
You're describing guild wars 2. Everyone is dps and nobody needs anybody else.
Everybody hates guild wars 2.
>>339909954
It depends on the game tbqh but in the traditional trinity you can't get started without a TANK. When tanks die usually so does everyone else. Next is HEALER. If they have infinite resources a tank and a healer can kill something by themselves...although slowly. DPS is last because they are mostly there to make things not take forever. This is coming from someone who mostly plays DPS. Facts are facts.
>>339928406
gayest thing I've read in a while
>>339911269
>Hydraulics equations
Got a kek out of me
What a retarded thread. It all depends on the game and the situation.
>>339928436
In ages past DPS had things that would allow you to tank indefinitely when played correctly.
>>339928436
It varies, obviously, but most of the time the damage mitigation tools afforded to DDs are severely time-limited. Sure, it's nice to be able to have 100% evasion for around 10 seconds or so as a Rogue after your tank dies and the boss starts attacking you, but after those 10 seconds are up there's not much you can do.
>>339919341
I didn't have an issue with the mechanics.
I had an issue with limiting to ten spells when you had so many great spells. So I'm forced to choose to block out some of my cool shit just to get shit I want. The overworld questing system and the weapon based skill system were pretty fun at first but it got extremely grindy rather quickly.
Its one of those games that I ended up liking for a little then hating forever after I was done. They really needed some more mechanics that made it a better single play game because the multiplay aspects were zerglike.
>>339909954
People in WoW (I played only TBC and LK) liked to flame dps because they thought it was the easiest role but everyone overlooked how fucking hard it was to find actualy good dps.
If the boss has a raid wiping enrage timer then they're all equally important.
If it doesn't then DPS only makes the fight faster but they're not essential.
>>339909954
DPS > TANK > HEALER
>>339930060
Every boss that doesn't have an enrage timer usually has a mechanic that gets stronger over time until it becomes impossible
How does it feel to not be a stupid healslut?
>>339910093
You calling it the holy trinity already makes you the least important faggot in all of gaming
>>339912967
May be you should tank and then you won't have to complain you faggot piece of shit
>>339928406
>Playing Tank
>I am not at 100% hp
>My healer is slacking
>She's probably daydreaming about not being the bottom bitch again
>Adds spawn
>I proceed to flex my beautiful muscles at each of them
>Except one
>The affected mobs flock to me so that they may bask in my glory
>Also a few female priests and druids
>The one I ignored looks disappointed
>But he knows what he must do
>He runs toward the slacking healer.
>She breaks out of her daydreaming and starts running
>I throw one of my spare epic weapons at the mob to slow it down
>She's crying, and screaming on voice chat
>Begging for help
>The healer and the monster are running in circles around the room
>She looks at me with her red and swollen eyes, her face wet with sweat, tears and snot.
>We exchange no words, she knows she deserved it.
>There is one problem though
>My healer is not healing me
>My HP bar is almost below 90%
>Unacceptable
>I look over to the DPS meter
>A shadow priest is on the top spot
>He's a being of darkness, sacrificing his soul and renouncing the Light for power
>"Priest!" I call out.
>He immediately shifts out of his shadow form, gets on his knees and starts healing me.
>A few rogues run to me and begin to bandage the top layer of my plate armour
>Foolish and unnecessary, but adorable in a way.
>My HP bar quickly surges back to full
>The boss falls
>The healer slips and falls in a puddle of her own tears
>We watch
>The monster catches up and hits her
>She's dead
>I flex at the monster, he approaches
>"I love you" he says, touching my chest
>I make sure he gets to feel every muscle before the DPS poke him to death
>He earned it
>The fight is over
>I beckon at the rogue to resurrect the healer
>He uses his goblin jumper cables to shock her clit
>She opens her eyes
>"T-t-t-t-t-thank you Master" she whimpers
>We check the loot
>The best healing staff in the game
>The healer crawls up to me, wrapping herself around my leg
>"P-p-p-p-p-please Master"
>I give it to the shadow priest
>>339930425
>Ranged DPS
>Not literal retards
It's like healing but easier
Healer + DPS with no Tank: It CAN work if the healer is very good and the DPS is at least a little sturdy.
Tank + Healer with no DPS: Will always work, but will take an ungodly amount of time due to lack of damage.
DPS + Tank with no Healer: Hard to impossible to get to work unless the tank has self-healing abilities.
The combination that suffers the most is the one without a healer, making the healer the most important role.
Nothing more to discuss in this regard.
>>339932063
>unless the tank has self-healing abilities.
In which case proving the healer completely worthless, as they often are. Hell, I had one parse while tanking on my DK where 85% of the healing I received was my own.
I'm a Paladin so I can change between tanking and healing as I want, and I do my own damage too.
I don't need a team, they're dead weight.
>>339931752
o-oh my
>>339923039
>failing to mention this is 12 months into a raid tier
>Failing to mention everyone overgears the encounter handily because of the above and the valour buffs
HFC isn't balanced around everyone having a item level higher then was possible when it was introduced. I don't know if this is your first rodeo or what but whenever there's a situation like this there are always specs that have some bizarre scaling quirk or a cheese mechanic or just flat out scale the best.
This time its sub and arcane last time it was affliction and feral, in icc is was fury and (probs a mage). It's the nature of the beast.
>>339932331
At least I'm not mentally disabled
>>339932247
That's not at all you fucking numbskull. A melee DPS warrior with impending victory will be responsible for 90% of their own healing because it's so goddamn effective.
All that means is that you're slightly less of a burden than a hunter.
>>339912214
Wrong. a tank vastly surmounts the other two roles in terms of carrying.
It's an issue of sustainability and, to a largely more important extent, efficiency.
Tanks are built to sustain damage and deal enough damage to maintain threat from dps.
Majority of dps lack sustainability. And most healers lack the damage to efficently take down encounters.
In the end, any role that would carry a group would ultimately devolve into a 'tank' because they are in control of the mob/encounter.
>>339910236
>Did not play Dark Souls
Why ever play anything but a self-healing tank? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=264xeQ9ps2I
>>339932393
You do know that even heroic geared mages can burst 400k+ properly setup
Even when the content was new everyone realized arcane mage was retarded
>>339931752
please write more
masturbating hard
>>339932534
>they are in control of the mob/encounter.
Hah, oh sweet naive little tanks. Thinking they control anything in a world where the DPS can kill shit so fast a tank isn't even needed.
Healers are the most necessary but they're also the most self-righteous and are generally insufferable assholes.
DPS are important and are generally alright people
Tanks can be the best but they can also be the worst. This goes double for the people playing them.
>>339919579
WoW has hybrid classes. Merely by doing that, there is no trinity.
I don't get the people who play tank in literally any game it is just boring as fuck. they are slow, weak and boring to play. DPS is where it's at.
>>339909954
It depends on the game and the context.
Once you're in pre-raid BiS in Vanilla wow it's not only possible to do five mans with entirely DPS but it's usually quicker.
During raiding obviously you need all three roles, but the retards usually relegate themselves to the roll of healer since it's just spamming an ability. The tank is more important on most bosses, but once something's on farm status the tank will often switch to some sort of hybrid spec that's more DPS focused just to make it quicker.
>>339910173
>Implying
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmIyGlaOqI4
Find me the tank/healer equivalent please.
>>339932976
"Hybrid" class means a class that can specialize in either healing or dps or tanking or whatever
You always have to pick one though
This is still trinity
>>339933060
I like taking no damage
it makes my willy feel big
>>339916564
This is why I quit the game. If you're not having fun playing the game, why play at all? Why play if every aspect of gameplay seems like it's some necessary but shitty chore?
>>339933225
>This is still trinity
No.
Especially when the Trinity is in reality a Duo.
Take Damage
Deal Damage
What Hybrids do, is th at by doing all roles a little less effective, they excel because they don't have the horrible horrible flaws of the actual classes.
>>339909954
El mio.
>>339933060
In good MMOs, tanks have to balance high threat output, high dps output, and damage mitigation at the same time. In Vanilla-WotLK WoW, tanking was pretty fun and engaging desu.
>>339933225
>>339933490
>>339932976
If you play brewmaster on live you take most of the damage, deal considerable damage and heal the group a little
I don't think it's enough to warrant them a space doing any of those things aside from tanking, because in the other two regards they are strictly inferior to one of the dedicated classes
>>339933532
Active mitigation tanking in WoW now is much better than the passive shit that was in vanilla-wrath.
If each party member is at the same level of gear and skill where the tank takes moderate damage from attacks and the healer can replenish HP lost, then dps is probably crux of the battle. I imagine that the fight is on a timer of sorts where the end is when the healer runs out of MP. So ideally you want to kill the mob before this happens which ends up being the dps' job.
Of course this is without fight mechanics or tank busters where it would change the dynamic and would include the mob being important by providing a challenge.
>>339911027
>neither TANK or DPS can revive HEALER,
My DK, warlock, druid and shaman (legion) says hello
>>339933880
I'd have to agree with that for the most part, unfortunately it's come alongside some of the less favorable boss mechanics we've had in recent years
Mechanics that the tanks have no control over at all (even if they want to go out of their way there's still nothing they can do) but can still wipe the entire raid (imperator mines)
and also mechanics that are excessively hard to do (add tanking on ko'ragh)
Tanks are going to have less control over their own survivability come legion and we're going to have to see how that pans out but so far the general reception to this has not been good
>>339933880
You're going to love legion.
Active tanking abilities do almost nothing on beta and everything's been moved to passive mitigation because the dungeon design team didn't like having to design around competent use of cooldowns because it made the game 'more stressful' for healers if the tank didn't do it right.
>>339933490
>>339933876
Tanks and healers in wow can do decent damage so you can do solo content with them
A tank in a raid will have about 50-70% of your average DPS on the meters
Healers could probably reach similar levels if they could get away without healing
Rip fistweaving
>>339934681
Are they nerfing externals like pain suppression?
I'd love to play a tank but I'm heavily autistic so asking healers for externals on voice chat makes me nervous so I never ask for them and die horribly
Mainstream audiences can't perform not even decently with only those 3 basic roles, yet you guys want to introduce back old and discarded ones?
I don't think that shit will fly ever again.
>>339935036
If anything CD are getting even strongerdisc looks amazing and It's the only healer I want to play
>>339934681
Meanwhile brewmasters entire playstyle rewards being on low health so when you enter a dungeon or raid you have to inform/remind your healers not to top you up
>>339935036
Pain suppression is unchanged as of this build of the beta (except you get it two levels earlier)
>>339935156
Clearly we should all be forced to the level of the lowest common denominator instead.
Reminder that a tank and healer can eventually kill a boss if it doesn't enrage or have special mechanics
>>339935172
No fuck reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
>>339935259
At least it's not "get hit hard enough before guard or you die"
>>339935156
>>339935323
A compromise would be nice. Something like instead of playing a pure healer playing a hybrid healer/debuffer that has lower healing output but has debuffs to reduce the damage enemies do to compensate.
>>339932349
who dat is
Dps.
Having tanks or healing in games just slows the combat down unless its like DnD and the gameplay is meant to be strategic, in which case whoever does ranged damage is most important.
>>339935871
No pleb gtfo
You are nothing without the god tank
And don't touch my heal waifu
>>339935323
Sadly, yeah.
It's either that or play with a considerably reduced niche population, and that doesn't exactly help having multiple roles besides the trinity, ie have fun trying to get a full viable group.
We could also mention the myriad balance issues a game like that will have, reminder that we all turned into insufferable faggots who will most likely aim for the most efficient way to do things and discard everything else as shit.
>>339935721
That's the thing, as I see it, the situation we are currently in is precisely because compromise after compromise. Those cc/buff/debuff roles were eventually fused into the 3 basic rules for convenience, steamlining or whatever you want to call it.
>>339913554
This argument =/= meaningful
>>339936092
Ha gay
>>339936092
good luck on killrog fuccboi
>>339911027
It always amazes me that people just start making up scenarios rather than citing video game examples of this shit where it works; pretty much every MMO that includes the trinity, you're not going to do anything this post describes. Because if your tank dies you wipe, if your healer dies you wipe, if your DPS dies you wipe (slowly).
as someone who exclusively ran healers in mmos...
it's dps. doesn't matter if the tank can hold threat like nobody's business. if your dps can't down your target fast enough, your tank will eventually take enough damage (there's usually always that 5% chance for a tank to get their shit pushed in in an encounter) that the heals will go oom, starting the wipe spiral.
