How do we fix MMOs?
pic related imo. Having everyone stand around while one puny guy stands still with a shield shouting at the boss repeatedly is retarded and i have no idea why it's been allowed to continue for so long.
Remove tanks
Rework healers
Make a gimmicky support diversity class to replace braindead tanks
>>339813731
Perhaps you haven't noticed that the vast majority of the people playing games don't pay attention to detail.
>They'll play pay2win games and act like its a real competition.
>They'll play games that have flaws like your pic, even if that combo breaks the game and makes them 100% invincible they won't notice and will still think its fun.
>>339813731
Worthless dps scumfuck detected.
What's wrong, did you get kicked out of the raid for standing in the fire? Did the healer stop healing you because you were too retarded to stop attacking during the boss' counter stance?
Or maybe the entire guild confronted you for doing shit dps despite having good gear, and suspended you from raids for a while?
>>339813731
cause Guildwars 2 is so good amirite?
>>339813731
FFXI.
>>339814147
I've got nothing against tanks as people, the tank class is just a stupid idea that makes no sense
>>339814251
So the guy in the dress with the stick should be taking hits from the gigantic cyclops boss with a dragon's skull mace?
>>339813731
i am a big bad tank, i need a slut healer to suck my fat cock
any volunteers?
>>339814251
Someone needs to know how to play, it sure as hell isn't the DPS players.
>>339813731
give all melees abilities to take some hits and prevent the boss to get to the ranged and healers, done!
>>339813731
People that play MMOs like the dynamic of the holy trinity. There's no fucking point to removing it.
>>339814158
GW2 removed healers, not tanks, but it still fucking sucked (especially compared to GW1).
>>339814251
Just because the idea of "big man who acts as a shield" doesn't appeal to you, doesn't mean that it's a stupid idea.
>>339813731
Cut to the chase and replace the healer type with a prostitute class.I'd play it.
Why are DPS players always such obnoxious faggots? It's a fucking constant in every MMO.
>>339813731
true.
that's why EVE never had tanks.
>>339814251
turn tank into melee CC class, like Enchanter in Everquest but with armor and hp to live trough some heat
>>339814323
it makes no sense for the gigantic cyclops boss with the dragon's skull mace to prioritize the guy cosplaying a camper van instead of the guy in the frilly dress that's summoning the apocalypse on his ass
>>339814439
Play Tree of Savior then. You can set up "donation" booths exclusively as a healer, which allows people to give you money and dump their cum onto you as you proceed to everyone off who pays you.
Keep tanks but remove their ability to keep aggro. Give them more interesting ways to protect other players like wow's intercept ability and stuff like that.
>>339814513
maybe the cyclops is as dumb as you are
>>339814408
>GW2 removed healers, not tanks
There's no tanking in instances ever. Everyone is wearing berserker gear which is for the sole purpose of killing monsters faster than they can kill you. You probably haven't even played GW2 and just looked at the classes thinking "Hey, that guy is big and burly, he must be a tank" but no, that's not the case. There's damage mitigation with boons to some degree, but no tank class.
>play DPS
>actually know boss animations
>healer is a wench that won't do his job
>tank is bro aggroing boss like he should
>still fail because healer has a giant ego
Remove healers. Give healing abilities to tank. Have perfect dichotomy of DPS/tank.
>>339814616
In The Secret World, the "tanking classes" are actually debuffers, which is kind of neat
stop playing mainstream dopamine-raping shit
>>339813889
So PSO2?
>Everyone is a DPS
>Heal is an AoE field that gives about 4-5 ticks and replenishes a full bar, but only really used when there's strong attacks
>Techer has gimmicky but useful support buffs such as attack/defense buff giving more base HP and extending utility AoEs, along with grouping up trash mobs into one mass to kill
The problem with tanks is they aren't seen as the heroic protector because literally all they do most of the time is stand still spamming their abilities just like everyone else. Healing is a lot more challenging.
Fixed.
There's no healing, you take damage, you fucking die. In order to survive, you must avoid damage and pop defensive cooldowns.
Every MMO should be like a multiplayer DMC game with one hit KOs.
>>339814663
I haven't played since about a year after release, but can you blame me? there were certainly classes/configurations that were better-suited for taking damage than others
>>339813889
If a tank is just a dps with a shield and more life, yes it is braindead. But a real tank is build around threat and active abilties to protect and absorb damage, that is challenging and much more representive of what this role makes unique.
>>339814717
You can tank with almost anything in TSW though, applying 4 different vulnerabilities is just pretty good for the whole party. You can even tank as the healer or as a hybrid dps with lifesteal
>>339814796
So your idea of a great MMORPG has absolutely no resemblance to an MMORPG at all?
>>339813731
Getting rid of tanks isn't going to work because it'll just turn everything into a bland DPS race.
A better idea would be replacing tanks with buffers/debuffers. The goal of tanks is to prevent others from getting hurt. Buffers can do this by using protective buffs, debuffers can do this by debuffing the enemy's DPS.
It would help if buffs/debuffs would do more than just change the numbers of the encounter. For example, a Slow debuff that doesn't just reduce the enemy's cooldowns and/or movespeed, but actually slows down the animations so everyone can see big attacks coming more easily. It could create interesting mechanics where previously dangerous attacks could become possible to dodge, and stuff like that.
>>339814796
Wow that sounds like a really fun DMC game but not an MMO you fucking retard
>>339814686
Sounds more like a specific case where that happened to you, doesn't mean that healer is a bad class/role.
I agree they're faggots though, by playing healer you are committing to healing your team, tank or otherwise.
>>339814251
>the tank class is just a stupid idea that makes no sense
what? it makes perfect sense so long as enemies target people and deal damage.
if you know someone has to get hit and soak up the damage the enemy is going to deal out, you want to put whoever is best suited at soaking that damage up infront of him.
>>339814901
Applying vulnerabilities or w/e is the primary goal of characters referred to as tanks in most parties, from what i remember. also the gear, but yeah, tanks can be hybrids, just like most healers in that games were hybrids
>>339814815
The game has been the same since release, so either you're brain dead and never noticed the flaws GW2 had - which are quite noticeable and become apparent after a few hours of gameplay - or you simply haven't played it.
There's no designated tanking class, hell, tanking is actually impossible because there are no threat generators and enemies just randomly target people.
Don't think because a class is called Guardian it actually means they're a tank, they're all DPS with utility and control abilities added on top.
>>339814903
Where did I say MMO"RPG"?
RPG systems in MMOs are shallow and redundant, the "leveling up" process is nothing but padding to lock you out of the game so you pay more for subscription money.
All that matters is the ability to customize your playstyle through variable stats in your gear.
WoW, for example, is not an RPG in its true sense, and neither are most of the so called MMO"RPG"s.
>>339814950
Combat mechanics bear no influence on whether a game is classified as MMO or not, you fucking retard. As long as you occupy a consistent gameworld with thousands of other players, it's an MMO.
>>339813731
Just do what Riot did.
Combine the three classes into one.
>>339814907
Man it's like you people have never played an MMO with real CC before. I remember being a hunter in BC, particularly MgT early on, having to deal with 2-3 enemies myself. Tanks are a waste of MMO potential
>>339814513
but thats not how it works, the cyclops doesnt make a bee-line for the tank, the tank actively taunts the cyclops to get his attention, its his raison d'etre.
>>339815098
But Bard is a roamer that looks calming but cool at the same time, you can't make money off that.
>>339814513
This where MMOs could actually learn something fromD&D 4th Edition.
It had tank classes, but no aggro mechanic. Instead, the tank classes all had their own way of leading the enemy into making a bad decision. For example, they could make it so the enemy would hit them (and of course they're well able to take a hit so this wouldn't be so bad), or they could still go and hit someone else but they'd take some kind of penalty (damage, a reduced hit chance, etc).
It got rid of the boring and unrealistic aggro mechanics and left the enemy open to attack the back-row squishies, but it also gave them a compelling reason to attack the tank despite this.
who cares, mmos are dead
>>339815042
Why would the enemy focus on the meatshield and not think maybe it would be a good idea to attack healers? What exactly is the tank doing to keep the enemy's attention?
>>339814796
>everyone is DPS
That's like half the reason GW2 failed.
With all the functionality in MMOs now, it would be great if Tanks could actually have a role positioning themselves to block enemy attacks for teammates. Instead of a "Cover" buff like in FF14 and WoW, let it be about the tanks pushing the enemy away from the team and intercepting shots.
>>339815253
>yo momma
>>339814903
Being a MMORPG has next nothing to do with the combat system as long as it more or less fits the RPG part.
>>339815183
Just give him tits.
CHA CHING.
>>339815089
just leave the thread my man
>>339814884
>>339814884
>>339814884
THIS
This is the one thing Blizzard did better in WoD, tanks having to actually time their Active reduction abilities to mitigate damage spikes
It was sort of a thing in BC and Wrath, but now almost every boss has some sort of spike you need to worry about rather than it just being a gimmick thing certain bosses have
>>339815253
>What exactly is the tank doing to keep the enemy's attention?
Pissing the mob off by taunting it, it's not that hard to understand
>>339815253
Standing in between them and the healers, for one.
If it's a real life fight, who are you going to punch? The big angry guy that's right in front of you trying to punch your face off, or his girlfriend cheering him on from the other side of the room?
>>339815190
how would this work with AI though.
in D&D the dungeonmaster could decide that a group of hobgoblins was going to riskily try to attack the mage dispite incurring a load of free hits for doing so, sort of a suicide attack, but when would a games AI know when to do this and when to fight sensibly?
in WoW this essentially was still the same because of how threat levels worked, if a healer or a damage dealer was being wayyyyyy too effective, they might generate more threat than the tank and cause the enemy to switch target.
>>339815256
That's because they didn't do it well.
The holy trinity paradigm is nothing but a compromise. So are RPG mechanics. RPGs are generally easier to develop and require less complex netcode, and that's the only reason most MMOs are RPGs.
>>339815324
Fuck off, weeb.
>>339815089
Shallow gameplay is what the masses want though, with the commercial success of games like WoW that provide a linear levelling experience. If you think back to the origins of mmorpgs, you'll find that games like Dark Age of Camelot, Ultima Online, SWG, EO had a massive amount of features, such as housing and no levels or linear quest progression. But apparently, having a lot of options is not what players want.
>>339815367
Yeah but the big guy isn't hiding a concealed carry gun in his purse. I'll sucker punch his wifu first.
>>339815362
That doesn't make any sense.
>>339815253
>Why would the enemy focus on the meatshield
>What exactly is the tank doing to keep the enemy's attention?
taunting. the tanks job is to enrage the monsters into attacking him and ignoring everyone else, he gets up into their face and makes them mad.
could you have monsters be immune to taunting? yes sure, but then you just end up making one of your core character roles useless and make the job of the others much more difficult. which is kind of a clumsy way to do things.
Anyone actually play pen and paper roleplay games? If so how do you solve fights with your groups? They can't all be tank and spank.
>>339815394
It would be trivial to give different enemies different priorities. Like the dumb troll will always prioritise whatever's closest to him, a cunning goblin would try to sneak around and backstab the healer, and a raging orc will just run straight past the tanks in order to punch the puny wizard in the face.
Also, you could still have an aggro system, just a stealth one that players couldn't directly manipulate.
>>339813731
Stop trying to make a better version of WoW. Design a game that is completely new in every aspect. I'm so sick of every new MMO being a WoW clone with very minor modifications.
Imagine you're fighting a dragon boss. You have like 5 tanks in the group. The dragon is about to do his fire breath so the tanks have to quickly form a phalanx with their shields so that everyone can run behind them and be shielded from the fire.
This is what tanking should be
>>339815523
makes perfect sense, if you were a giant and a group of shitty little humans approached you and one was being a cunt and keeps calling you a faggot, he is very likely to be the first guy whos shit you slap, not the quiet guy at the back saying some prayers who isnt really disturbing you.
>tfw there will never be a Ring Runner MMO
>tfw you will never travel with a fleet of fellow space wizards, consuming entire enemy fleets with massive clusters of dark matter
>>339815583
i think theres certainly room to improve things and give different creatures different motivations for who to target, but without having a human intelligence behind things, its still going to basically come down to an aggro meter, just one that maybe has more of a bias for certain things in certain creatures.
You're all thinking too small, you're taking the same old puzzle pieces and shuffling them around in the hopes it makes a new picture instead of tossing the entire thing and starting fresh.
Prioritise character creation. Let people make whatever they want without having to worry about not being optimized because elves aren't good at melee or whatever.
Don't lock armor and weapons to classes. If you want to be a mage in full plate armor, go ahead.
In fact, just don't have classes. Let people pick and choose skills they want and roles will form out of that. Design skill trees so there is no clear tank/mage/healer/DPS branch that people will walk down.
Let people have different loadouts for their skill tree, so players can swap between whatever the party/guild wants. Instead of bumbling around waiting for a healer, someone can just swap to the skill tree that has the most healing skills.
Basically give players as much freedom to make the characters they want instead of placing arbitrary restrictions on them.
Also encourage more co-op. Too many MMOs use the multiplayer part for PvP and expects everyone to grind 80 levels by themselves to get to that point. People have more fun with friends, so encourage players to go out and make friends.
Up the difficulty so one person can't play the game solo. Add non-combat areas for players to mess around with that aren't just empty towns. Fuck it, add silly minigames if it helps. Have parties get bonuses like an extra 10% drop rate per party member.
>>339815534
I usually just sit back and have the wizard nuke the room. Maybe sing a song about it.
I'm here to make money and get bitches wet. I'll leave the dirty business to the professionals.
>>339815534
in P&P games tanks are melee fighters that lock down enemies (if enemies try to move away from a fighter, they get a penalty and might receive a free hit), they also have skills that mitigate damage back to you.
P&P games aren't min-max focused though, so it's a dumb arguement to view it as a real game. Everyone participating wants each other to win the game, even the GM. You can play a 8 year old tiefling priest and you'd still get through the game.
Release MAngband as a commercial product called World of Warcraft 2.
The holy trinity is just the extension of the braindead AI "mob hits target" paradigm.
If you give the enemy some kind of complex behavior and abilities that players can interact with, counter, avoid, etc, tanks and healers become unnecessary.
>>339815770
Games that try this always wind up with some super-OP build that destroys anything else.
>>339815253
Wait wait wait wait wait!
You're getting dangerously close to trying to make MMORPGs not brainded shit for skill-less fat shits playing the game on autopilot to fill in the void of social life they do not posses there!
Stop!
MMORPGs are not meant to have good gameplay. MMORGs are meant to waste your time with the less amount of thinking required.
>but I make spreadsheets
If only you put that skill to use in you job at McDonalds you could've made manager some day.
>>339815754
Sure there will always have to be some sort of aggro meter (even "they always attack the first target they see" that too many games use is essentially aggro management), but if you take away things like Taunt mechanics that allow players to directly manipulate the aggro meters, you also take away their ability to just tank&spank through everything, and they'll need to adjust their strategies depending on the enemy's behaviour.
>>339815813
>Arent' min-max focused
>Has never played with "That guy"
Anon, one day you will know. One day.
>>339815839
Salient point.
RPG's have a lot of potential for fun gameplay but are limited due to the poor AI of enemies
>>339815868
That's where "up the difficulty so one person can't solo it" part comes in. Even if you create a build that completely breaks the balance of the game, you shouldn't be able to solo it. Or at least, not very well.
Like, have monsters link aggro so attacking one draws the others. Unless you can kill each one quickly you're going to get gangraped by 4 lizardmen or whatever.
>>339815770
>"What is the equivalent to mmorpgs before 1990"
Did I get it right?
>>339815770
>Basically give players as much freedom to make the characters they want instead of placing arbitrary restrictions on them.
Do that and I guarantee that two months in 80% of your playerbase will be using the same cookie cutter build they copied off gamefaqs or whatever.
Renew the Trinity:
>DPS
>Buffer/Protector
>Tank/Healer
Because every Tank secretly want's to heal himself and Healers would rather have the Team not to loose health at all.
>>339815770
>Don't lock armor and weapons to classes. If you want to be a mage in full plate armor, go ahead.
people will still min max though, being a puny wizard with hardly any strength means heavy bulky armour is going to encumber you and doesnt really assist you much in doing what you do best (ie casting spells not being a front line damage sponge)
asherons call had this free flowing character creation, you picked your skills from a list and could wear anything in the game, the end result was basically people played 2 classes
1st class:
>a melee/ranged weapon with 3 of the 4 schools of magic (buffs and healing)
2nd class:
>all 4 schools of magic
and everyone basically ended up wearing the exact same suit of armour because of min/maxing
breaking things up into classes and putting limitations on what each can do gives you more variety, otherwise if its just an open system where you can pick anything, theres always going to be one single best choice.
>>339813731
add a 4th or even a 5th to the holy trinity. Couple of ways to do this.
Make it so large numbers of mobs spawn in dungeons and a "controller" needs to be in the party. AKA someone who can push/hold/move and decide placement of mobs all while doing dps. If he fails then the entire party gets over run, if successful the mobs are pushed within tanks agro range and kept away from others.
Make dungeons take long (ingame time) and indroduce fatigue, weapon/armor degredation. Then force the use of a builder class to set up base, smith and repair stuff. make beds etc If he succeeds the party can continue. If he fails then the party goes on with lowered max hp/mp. Are tired. Have broken shit. Etc.
Make enemies that hard that the party NEEDS to be buffed and enemies debuffed by a buff class. And split the healer and buffer up.
Really force the use of anything that isnt built to recover HP, Take damage, or do dps in dungeons. Spend 2 minutes and you can think of at least one yourself.
- Vertical progression treadmill design has to go. Does nothing but stagnate the game and waste both developer's and player's time with content that gets replaced. MMOs should have sandbox-style design where the primary goal is to compete with other players for resources/territory and where regular play is required to protect/maintain those things.
- Action based combat with real hitboxes/hurtboxes instead of tab targeting and ability hotbars. Abilities can still exist but should be situational and have specific purposes instead of just comprising a "rotation".
- Roles can still exist, but they don't need to be rigid and set in stone with predefined classes. Let players create custom builds and allow for multiple approaches to any given situation. Following predetermined role configurations shouldn't be necessary for success.
- "Damage" should not be a role because it has no real group responsibility. Rather, damage should be everyone's responsibility in roughly equal measure, in addition to other more specialized roles.
- All items that aren't extremely basic/low-level stuff for new characters should be made and maintained by players.
>>339815534
I've played a lot of them. Not DnD though.
Most of the time, we have 3 options
>If they're weaker than us
Just fight.
>If we're on even footing
Try to figure out a way to tip the scales to our favor before the fight starts. Ambush, alliances, specially prepared weapons, enviromental advantage, etc.
>If they're way stronger than us
Don't fight. Either run away or bargain for your life.
I usually prefer playing support type characters, since that forces me to think outside the box. The last PnP character I played as was an assassin type character from the Witcher PnP RPG. No combat skills outside of what you start with, but great at sneaking, can make poisons and potions, and has good mobility. It was a lot of fun killing my first mark. Took a while, but way more fun than just fighting him.
we don't have to remove tanks
we just need to ensure the AI will just use actual tactics against players
for example wolf pack attacking everyone instead of focusing on one guy. or evil mage cursing and freezing the tank in his place making him useless for a while. or huge boss scattering around everyone with one sweep. or enemies with ranged attack attacking ranged players.
Copy dark souls combat mechanics where bosses can 1 shot or 2 shot dumb players. No real tanks, unless you build tanky, even then you have to rely on estus, dodging, avoiding, blocking.
Everyone must use block/dodge/avoid damages, no exceptions. There are no heals except so everyone must play a role. Potions limited to 2-3x use and bosses with health pools that lasts 5mins when attacked by 10+ players. Have some sort of undodgeable aoe damage so incase 9/10 die, that 1 person won't simply dodge/avoid and kill the boss solo.
>>339816046
that doesnt solve it, you now just have 5 people with the "best build" killing things instead of 1 guy doing it solo.
>>339815970
>I'm gonna start playing with a group for the first time soon
How do i avoid being "that guy"?
>>339816069
I considered that, but there's really nothing you can do to stop that. Besides, even with a normal class system people will copy whatever build is "optimal" for that class. They're going to do it regardless, so I just ignored them.
>>339816064
Probably. I wasn't born until 1992.
>>339815970
The thing is that in PnP you or your GM can easily deal with an hyper-optimised character. Not too long ago I was in a D&D 3.5 game (not by choice, but unfortunately it's still the most popular option in many circles) where one guy was using some king of retarded charge build that basically one-shot everything he attacked.
It never once became an issue. We had a couple of decent combat encounters to give that guy a bone (though they were mostly large numbers of weak enemies so his one-shot abilities meant little) along with some social and skill-based encounters where that guy was forced to take a back-seat since combat was just about the only thing he was good for.
>>339816173
>>339816168
>>339816152
If ya'll want to play Guild Wars 2 why don't you?
>>339815993
>>339815839
That poor AI is programmed like that on purpose.
There's nothing easier than to make the mobs target the lowest HP characters first for instance.
It's a design choice.
If MMORPG players actually had to think about what they were doing! Wow. Can you imagine it. I cannot.
I have friends who won't touch MOBAs because PVP scares them to death.
Enemies are smart. no simple aggro mechanic per se. Enemies have an "intelligent" stat that causes them to attack whoever the weak link is depending on how smart they are. eg the closest healer.
If you die you don't get loot
>>339815947
AC2 had interesting but ultimately flawed attack and defense mechanics.
in the first AC you put points into melee missile and magic defense, and then also your attacks would conform to one of these 3 types, but in 2, they collapsed attack and defense into a single stat, so if you were good at magic offensively, you had good magic defense, etc etc.
this meant playing a mage and fighting some melee creature meant you got hit hard, but then when a spellcaster showed up and started throwing fireballs around, all the melee and missile chars started getting rekt while you barely took any damage.
>>339816173
>What is Monster Hunter
>>339816310
>it's literally impossible to make a good WW2 FPS game because Mortyr exists
is this your argument?
>>339816340
Good point. Just make a Monster hunter style MMO.
>>339816142
the thing with these super specialized shit classes is that when they're not doing their thing, what the fuck are they doing?
the dps is always dpsing, the tank is always tanking and the healer is always healing, but what does the buffer do when he's done buffing? dps? then he's just a dps with buffs and you solved nothing
crowd control is good but it's very reliant on enemy design
>>339816142
seems like the builder class would be a shitty thing to play though, you just tag along during all the fun parts like combat etc and then when everyone gets fucked up you stop and get your tent out.
the controller class from D&D 4th ed is something not many games have tried though.
>>339816142
sounds fun, but I would rather have fatigue of your character than weapon/armor, because broken gear just sucks, but having a camp to rest sounds cozy.
Does this describe you perfectly?
I'm not sure about tanks, but I do know about how to fix healers:
Make healers preventive, not curative.
Give healers a bunch of short-duration targeted damage reduction and damage absorbtion abilities. Plenty of MMOs already do this to some extent, but not enough IMO. By making healing preventive and short-duration, you keep them from having to play wack-a-mole with healthbars and force them to actually go with the flow of the combat. Slap a shield on someone who's about to get hit, pop a wide-area resistance buff just before the boss throws out his big AoE, etc. It's a much more active away of playing than just watching for the HP bars to drop.
>>339816216
>1992
Underage. Leave.
>>339816340
Monster Hunter style mmo would really be popular if it was launched in the west.
MMO is too casualized. It needs a Dark Souls like shake up imo.
>>339815970
I'm that guy, but after playing it for the first time and showing my sheet to the GM it was apparent that min-maxing your character or even the party is not the point of the game. All you want to do is roleplay the way your character is made with the stats and talents reflecting it to some degree. Because in the end, the GM is running the game and if he wants to kill you, he can kill you or at least permanently cripple you in an event.
>>339816397
Holy fugg I remember Mortyr.
For a while it was the only FPS game I had.
>>339815770
>Up the difficulty so one person can't play the game solo.
but I like to lone wolf mmo's sometimes BECAUSE it's more difficult
>>339816397
No, my argument is that GW2 is shit but you clearly want that kind of gameplay. So why don't you? Is it because the whole concept is actually just dogshit?
>>339816142
This is fucking stupid. You don't make gameplay more fun by chopping up classes and making each person do less.
>>339815083
shut the fuck up with your "there is no aggro system nonsense" Just play a fucking necro and let the min's hit some shit. the one with the highest dps will always get aggro (either golem or the spider). if you hit an enemy first and do more damage than the minions you will get targeted and now fuck off
>>339816182
If it's your first time, you won't be that guy unless you're an obsessive min-maxer.
I made a "that guy" character, but my GM house-rule nerfed him to oblivion.
Quite literally, he's a ghost now.
>>339816173
This is the dumbest shit I've ever heard. Multiplayer PvE in Dark Souls is fucking braindead. Why would you build an MMO around not requiring any cooperation whatsoever?
>>339813731
But this has been done dozens of times before. But none of them really lasted the test of time.
Trinity scenario: DPS fucks up, DPS blames tank and/or healers and group breaks up, DPS que up until a proper tank and/or healer can carry them through the content
Mouth Breathing scenario: DPS fucks up, DPS have no one to blame but themselves, DPS quits game, game dies
>>339816179
I don't see the issue. Even if they're all doing the same build, it's at least making them play together instead of doing it solo.
>>339816589
This. I have no idea why the fuck people think boiling a class down to doing a single thing is a good idea, but they are fucking retarded for thinking it.
>>339816504
Libra here.
Tank 4 lyfe. I do like having a decent bit of DPS, as long as I'm tank first. Ranged DPS is literally the worst, most casual option in any game.
>>339816576
Are you being willfully obtuse? Just because you think GW2 is bad does not mean his idea can't ever work.
>>339816605
>2016
>playing a necro
>using minions
Everyone is expected to have the same DPS in a party which should be the highest one reachable, obviously nobody would invite you into one and thus the point becomes moot.
>>339816509
You've grown too old, tovarich.
Someone born in 1992 is 24 now.
>>339816576
GW2 is shit because the actual gameplay and customisation is shallow as fuck, and the overall objective of the game is still same tired old treadmill/story grinding shit, there is no ongoing player conflict.
>>339816421
Your basing the ideas I put forward on current games.
When I say you need a buffer. the buffer spends 90% of his time buffing. He doesnt just get done buffing half way through a fight. he constantly needs to be buffing and debuffing. The controller spends 90% of his time controlling.
The idea is to create a need that isnt seen to by the normal 3.
>>339813731
Change the formula completely
Progression is based on what you can find when you explore the world
Trading and auction houses are necessary to make money and buy more exotic gear
Grouping allows sharing loot, but bigger groups get flagged for pvp activities, dungeons aren't regular instances and you can either go in as a raid group that can compete with other raid groups, or sneak through alone and steal decent loot
et cetera, but hopefully that's a good enough idea
>>339816340
>>339816407
Don't Monster Hunter MMOs already exist though? There's the actual MH one, of course. There was also 2 others I believe. One was a Chinese one that never really got any traction beyond being a slightly shitting MH clone. The other was utterly forgettable.
>>339816815
You want something like FFXIV then?
70% healing
5% buffing
10% controlling
15% dps
>>339816508
So basically, all healers should be more or less Zarya from Overwatch?
Shit, I could dig it.
>>339816589
So it would be best if one class could just do everything?
>>339816637
Just because multiplayer in Dark Souls is trash doesn't mean the combat mechanic is trash.
If you scale it up to proper mmo style multiplayer, you can easily make a great multiplayer platform.
If a 10 player hacking at boss takes 5 minutes. 1 player can't solo 10m bosses, then where's the "not requiring any cooperation" part?
Not healing isn't not cooperating. There's plenty of multiplayer games without healing. Counter Strike for example. You aren't simply limited to melee 100% of the time, ithe dark souls mechanic allows people to be any class they want at a cost.
With range, you're vunerable and squishy. With melee, you have to go in to to other player's range and take hits. With casters, you're squishy but can deal tons of damage. etc
You can't simply base Dark Souls multiplayer experience and then apply to MMO scale.
>>339816906
Worked for Quake 3.
>>339815083
I mained a defense/support Guardian when I still played GW2, and they were tanky as fuck even though direct tanking wasn't really an option.
>facetank just about anything
>shit out buffs for free all day
>time my Aegis spells just right to make people live through the worst kind of shit
>half the time they don't even realise why the run is going so ridiculously smooth
>pull entire parties of shitters through dungeons with the sheer power of my gigantic armor-plated balls
GW2 is shit, but playing a Guardian was the most fun you could possible have in that game.
>>339816906
It would be best if the core gameplay was not based around taking specific roles, but rather a combat system that is deep and fundamentally interesting. Roles should just be accessories that allow for different approaches to different tasks or opponents.
>>339816749
>Noncontextual passive aggresive response from a gigantic white knighting faggot who likes to take it up his ass
> expecting from me to take his response serious, despite knowing that all that he has written is blatant misinformation and that necros are always welcome anywhere I go
yes, nice for you that you like sucking dick so much an all but can you tell someone else about your interests
ITT: people who never have played guild wars 1
>tank
>healer
>prot
>Buffer/Debuffer
>DPS
>minion master
>ritualist
and all the 'ways' we had...
>discord-way
>paragon-way
>600/800hp monk duo
>55hp monk
and the specific builds you needed for stuff like
>uw speedclear
>duncan
Get rid of Healers from the trinity. They are the most do-nothing role in the game.
Tanks can't be healed at all but have better defensive options. Then make it a race between party DPS against Boss DPS. Once the tanks go down, the battle is lost. Gives some edge to the gameplay by reducing the margin of error and poor builds.
Support classes that buff and debuff become the new member of the trinity.
I have literally never played a MMO btw. They are for nerds desu.
>>339816508
id be quite interesting to see something like D&D 4th editions healing systems in play.
essentially every character has a limited number of self heals, and you are limited to using 1 of them yourself per combat encounter (a "second wind") and as many as you like between encounters as you rest.
however, during combat, healing classes can also use abilities that allow you to spend additional charges or in some cases just provide you directly with health in a classic "healing spell" kinda way that wont use any of your charges.
but i kinda like the idea of a healer only enabling you to use your own resources, which kinda makes playing safer and not taking damage something each character has to take responsibility for and not just rely on a "healer" focused class to just dish out free green health bars for all eternity.
it kinda freed up the classes in D&D from being walking healbots and let them contribute more to combat and suchlike with the healing effects coming in as more of a secondary side effect.
for example a "healer" might actually just be a martial fighter like the warlord who during one of his attacks inspires those around him to press on through the pain, and they get to use one of those charges, but that character isnt standing still chanting healing spells, hes diving in and making attacks like a DPS class would.
I wonder if a non magical healing could work in a MMO, like a low fantasy setting where you have to bandage using draughts no mid combat unless you take a step to the side line and apply said things.
Alternative i want a fucking mouse guard MMO.
>>339816479
Force his use in battle. Have to place traps build walls do logistics with needed items. Im saying REALLY force these characters in a game.
>>339816819
So, Diablo?
Is that what this thread is about? Just a bunch of people sitting around saying, "I don't like MMOs. We should play what I like instead." There's a dozen different suggestions in this thread that boil down to a single player experience with extra people taped on.
>>339816907
>You can't simply base Dark Souls multiplayer experience and then apply to MMO scale.
That's literally what you just said. What you seem to be asking for is a completely single player experience with no mechanical interaction between characters. Except the stats are inflated on enemies so you need other people to be there.
Your idea of multiplayer is a singleplayer game where mute, braindead characters who cannot interact with you in any way need to be present. You could accomplish the same with NPCs.
>>339817071
autism
>>339816885
more like 100% dps
>>339816906
Yes.
Unfortunately that would require the outcomes of the actions taken to be dependant on another factor besides how farmed up you are in the class. Like for instance - skill.
This makes it bad for an MMO. The people playing MMOs do not want to be good at video games.
>>339813731
Go back to roots and make every class perform a niche role/style, e.g. Ragnarok Online, EVE (every ship = class), FFXI, Lineage 2, etc.
What if there was an MMO that was Mabinogi, but not shit? I really liked how it tried to let you do all kinds of things. The problem was that ability points aren't exactly plentiful so you ended up having to specialize.
I had way more fun being a merchant than being a fighter, you know?
>>339817102
It's an interesting idea, but it would be awkward to implement in a fast-paced game, because it would essentially require you to confirm each heal you receive or else risk wasting your precious healing surges. In a boardgame that's not much of an issue, but during a chaotic raid with shit going on on all sides it would lead to a lot of frustration.
>>339817028
>run is going so ridiculously smooth
>only 4 players are dealing damage
hmm
>>339816696
youve just made the gameplay incredibly shallow and turned all the monsters into huge damage sponges that require 5 people to kill.
at least the trinity, is using different roles together to get something greater than the sum of its parts and everyone has their own different role.
when its just 5 hench dudes with self healing mashing buttons on something its kinda dull.
>>339817028
There's no need for a support guardian in instances though, in PvP yes because it's a war of attrition. Instance meta is that everyone goes full damage, dodging every attack. If you don't go zerkers and a perfect dps rotation you're inflating the time you're in a dungeon by +20% per player.
>drop the retarded wow type world design
In WoW (and many orther MMOs as well) the world is divided into leveling zones, which are basicaly small territories with stupid unnatural looking mountain ranges which act as barriers between zones. This is bad because it really gives the world an artifical feel and breaks immersion. Once you are finished with a zone you move onto the next one and you have no incentive to ever visit the previous zone again (other that grinding rep/gathering materials which is basically just flying around) Once you reach max level you have no reason to leave the main city/hub/garrison. This really kills the whole open world aspect of the game. A good MMO should give players a reason to be constanly wandering around the world, exploring it, visting and spending time at cities other than the capital. Also the "this zone is for this level range" design concept needs to go. It really makes no sense that a bear in Grizzly Hills is immensely stronger than a bear in Hillsbrad Foothills. I think it would be much better if the level ranges would be much wider for each territory, and the enemies inside them scaled in strenght accordingly to the player's level. I'm not saying that every monster should scale indefinitely, for expample simple wildlife should stop scaling early in terms of progression. Also, there should be high level zones, it's just that not every enemy inside them should be high level.
>>339817102
that's guild wars 2 healing system
>>339817262
>>339817274
Note that I only played GW2 in the beginning, before LMAO 5ZERKER became the only accepted meta.
>>339817102
I'm telling you, Healing should be dropped completely. It's all offense from DPS and control from tank.
>>339817028
>support in a dungeon
>>339817251
no more difficult than pressing a single button press.
think of it like D3s potion button, when you use it, its greyed out for however long a period of time, but imagine if another character had a move that instantly refreshed that cooldown for you.
its still up to you to heal yourself with it, and its your resource, so you dont want to squander it, but this other character being around might make it so that you get the option to use it more freqently.
>>339817328
No, GW2 just have everyone their personal healing ability. It didn't have any interesting interplay between classes like that, nor did it have actual healers.
>>339816885
Everybody spends all of their time working in their roll because the battle requires it.
Not entirely sure what you mean with your post.
>>339813731
Remove healers all together, tanks become the self healing dudes who gave up damage for life and dps become non self healing dudes who spew rape. Then the magical trifecta becomes tank ranged and melee, with tank being the lowest damage, melee being the middle of the pack with good burst and ranged are high sustained damage. You lose a lot of design space for classes but you gain a lot of balance, and it worked for LoL
>>339817413
how do you mitigate damage from enemies then?
Sometimes I wonder how you people can play so many games but still be absolute fucking morons when it comes to designing them.
>>339813731
Pretty simple actually. You get away from design based on "tank and spank" and elite mobs with millions of hit points and go back to strategic gameplay design.
you're asking for a wow clone that isn't a wow clone, there's more wrong with the wow style game then just the roles; if there was a way to just remove tanks and change healers to maybe half support half damage it would be better
it's specifically designed like that for players who can't play a dps class though
stuff like the itemization / raids and skinner boxes / dalies/weekly quests / hugbox environment and integrating really shit players into content / forced builds and stats / theme park raids and quests / basic trinity and mechanic and aoe dodging raids / the design of toolbar watching and one best rotation for dps / shitlord second life playerbase
I liked fantasy earth zero a lot, it's dead now
kind of like battlefront
I like the idea of path of exile character building but it's not an mmo
I think something like vindictus sans nexon and f2p would be cool, less instancing and less cash shop
or even controlling a ff style party on your own and playing with other player's parties, something like mmo last revenant or tactics
planetside and planetside2 are fun in theory, would be cool to see that kind of play with some changes
>>339817460
Wouldn't that just make a healer's job even more boring?
You're not even a healbot anymore, you're just a reduce-the-cooldown-bot while everyone heals themselves.
It might be a neat ability to add to an existing support class, but as a main feature it sounds really bad.
>>339817556
>go back to strategic gameplay design.
like what?
>>339817489
water mage
>>339817358
Yeah I've been playing warhorn warrior and taught the error of my ways in a very straightforward fashion.
>>339817659
Like having to farm consumables for each boss and having to grind resistance gear and having to meet retarded gear checks, I assume.
>>339815083
just because tanking wasn't good didn't mean tanking didn't exist
>>339815534
Been playing dnd 5th edition for a couple months. I'm the fighter, we have a wizard, cleric, and rogue. The cleric and I are able to tank, the rogue and I dps, the wizard is able to nuke weaker swarms of enemies but usually spends his turns casting supporting or debuffing spells. Tons of fun if you can find a group of friends to play with, and a good DM.
>>339814616
That sounds pretty cool.
>>339817634
no because didnt you read my first post?
he isnt just standing still pressing a button to remove your cooldowns, that healing effect is a secondary side effect to one of his attacks.
the warlord in D&D is basically supposed to be like this tactics master, and as he makes attacks he is dishing out buffs debuffs or healing effects as secondary side effects.
maybe he hits an enemy and opens it up for you to get a free critical stab, or maybe he blinds the enemy so he misses more often, the example i used was an attack that inspires and refreshes his allies and lets them spend one of their healing charges.
from the warlord characters perspective he is getting in up close and personal and making melee attacks (or i suppose ranged too) hes playing like a DPS class, but the side effects of those attacks are shaping the flow of combat for other players.
hes not just standing at the back chanting heal wounds spells or lay on hands.
>>339817071
that game had heck of builds for different purposes, but it also had a load of limitations that wouldn't really be acceptable for MMOs today. like running builds are pretty neat, but instanced areas aren't going to be well-received, so those builds won't make a return. also, all those things you listed play into the holy trinity, they just have interesting ways of accomplishing what they do, which i agree is a better way of rethinking MMOs than trying to re-invent the wheel of what you want classes to do
>>339817526
You have defensive skills to mitigate damage that can be tied to something involving real skill eg a parry that must be timed precisely or magic shield or whatever.
The DPS classes race to kill boss before tanks fuck up or die naturally over time from the boss's own high damage output. They are essentially martyrs buying time for the DPS classes.
The class interplay comes from the necessary support classes who provide defensive buffs/debuffs and do things like grant larger windows for their rotation timing or parries or whatever they do.
I dont play mmos.
>>339817503
They don't. FFXIV requires a delicate amount of fine tuning your gameplay, since you can mix classes and tanking being a harder job than it is in any other game.
If you're playing a healing class, you're expected to sleep/CC targets that have the least priority. You're expected to deal DPS when nobody needs healing or if you're rotating between heal and damage. You're expected to dodge incomming attacks (even if the tank doesn't lose aggro you still get targetted by abilities regardless). You're also expected to deal with the gimmicks in a fight, also emotes such as /soothe transfers debuffs onto a single party member which then can efficiently cured of all of them. On top of all of that you have to keep everyone alive and consider your positioning with the rest of the party (damage from behind is more efficient).
Now you tell me it's just standing at a single location for the whole game and spamming cure.
Problem here is people are mixing up MMO and MMORPG. Likely because OP's post is not specific, his image shows a common MMORPG element while his comment only says MMO.
>>339817153
sounds like you just want to play call of duty or counter strike or some other depthless "skill" game. why not take everything that can make a difference between two people out and have it completely skill based?
Thing is you can make an in depth role based game while keeping the requirement for skill
>>339815534
It depends on the game more than anything else. Shadowrun combat has nothing to do with D&D combat, which is completely different depending on the edition on top of everything else, which has nothing to do with Exalted combat.
>>339817869
So he's just a buffer/debuffer whose buffs and debuffs happen to also be melee attacks?
That's not exactly a new concept.
>>339813731
But then who will be the guy with god complex?
>>339817884
>instanced areas aren't going to be well-received, so those builds won't make a return
There's always dungeons/raids/etc.
No classes
You trade one abillities for another
Your stats are your gear so you can always try different shit.
>>339817890
>They are essentially martyrs buying time for the DPS classes.
That's easily the worst idea in this thread so far.
Congratulations.
>>339817997
i didnt say it was a new concept, im pointing out that its an already existing concept thats better than what most MMORPGs choose to use.
making healers stand at the back and play whack a mole isnt as dynamic or engaging as the way D&D 4th ed handled healing.
>>339818057
running builds were used to absorb damage, prevent cc, and move as fast as possible to ferry a group of players to areas that were difficult to get to, or to complete delivery quests as fast as possible. this was only possible because of the instanced world map that transferred you when one party member left a zone. dungeons are not equivalent at all.
>>339814323
No, every character should be doing their best to NOT get hit. A class designed to get hit is stupid.
>>339817915
>Quake
>depthless
Somehow I don't think you know what you're talking about.
People have said "Make a Dark Souls MMO" but what we really need is a Bloodborne one. Or more specifically, we need that rally mechanic.
For those that don't know what this is, when you get hit part of the HP you lost turns orange in your HP bar. You can attack enemies to restore this orange HP. It won't get you to full HP but it'll restore like 80% of damage if you're good enough.
There is no healer class. If you want to heal, you gotta play better.
Naturally, this won't work for your standard alt tab affair.
>>339818107
Why? It would be the most important role in the game reserved for the talented players.
>>339818107
it's literally what tanks do now
it's worked for every successful MMORPG besides maybe runescape
>>339813731
Remove Multiplayer
Remove Online
Alright, listen up
The "holy trinity" exist at all because of two truths in the base systems of these types of games
>Truth 1: win/loss is based on someone's HP being depleted to 0
There's three stats that HP can be in.
It can be going up, staying the same, or going down, and each of the three points of the trinity are associated with one of these states.
>2nd truth: A group functions better if each member is specialized
Anyone can potentially try to fill all three roles at once, but in a multiplayer game, this set up is almost always inefficient compared to min/max optimizing each member of your group into a specific role. basically a group of 20 jack of all trades isn't going to clear content as well as a group of 14 DPS, 2 tanks, and 4 healers
>So how do you avoid it?
Without homogenizing every player to be DPS like Guild Wars 2, Monster Hunter, ect do
This guy >>339816142 is on the right track
You have to change the base lose/win conditions or add additional conditions to them.
Making positional aspects more important and then adding a class to deal with that aspect of the game is a pretty common solution that I see.
>>339818201
Oh, right.
Well, you could still do that, except without the exploity instance teleporting. Just allow players to buy an item that teleports the entire party to them (only useable outside combat).
>>339818217
but usually tanks are designed to have the bosses attention and dodge or otherwise avoid the actual damage
>>339817912
I get the idea you think im trying to say that all classes in current games (including FFXIV) spends all their time doing their one roll.
Of course this aint true just as you said a healer does far more than heal.
What im saying returns to my idea that a class should spend most of its time doing its roll. The roll itself should be DEEP enough that a player has to do multiple things to keep it interesting.
>>339816142
a semen demon class who restores the parties morale through blowjobs
>>339818217
its not a class designed to get hit, its a class designed to mitigate the inevitability that "somebody is going to get hit", he has a big health pool, heavy armour and a big shield.
hes going to block, hes going to dodge, hes going to absorb, and use any and all of the damage mitigation mechanics your engine allows, but hes generally going to be the best target in your party to soak up the damage when its being dished out.
case in point, a tiger jumps out of the jungle and rushes towards a family of tribal hunters, generally its going to be the big strong men who rush out first to ward it off, they wont sit back and demand the newborn babies deal with it.
>>339818320
then a player could just fast travel to the new zone and forgo the use of a running build entirely
it wasn't possible in GW1 because the party had to be together to be zoned together
>>339818443
we have those already
theyre called healers
>>339818226
Compared to your average mmo. yes it is.
>>339818532
Complexity is not the same thing as depth.
>>339818259
>>339818264
Nobody likes dying, especially before the fight is done. In regular MMO's, the job of tanks is to take damage WITHOUT dying, which is a job that's supported by healers. If you take away healers and make it inevitable for tanks to die, then you reduce tanks even more to an expendable crutch for DPS whores to rely on.
>>339818470
You can't fast-travel to locations unless your entire party can fast travel to that location.
There, fixed it for you.
I think MMOs need more goals than just "kill all the monsters in this area without dying". This is why everyone always goes towards one build, there's only one thing to do.
Instead, have lots of different goals you have to accomplish., and have those goals have different win and lose conditions.
For example, protect a town from being attacked. You have to kill the monsters without letting a single one reach a certain point. A tank's ability to use aggro would be helpful, but it also means he might get more than he bargained for.
Maybe you're going through a dungeon but there's a sniper at the very end taking shots at you the whole way through. You can't just meander around fighting whoever you find, you have to be more strategic so you don't get shot.
>>339818450
this
make it inevitable that the tank will go down and let players figure out how to deal with that without resorting to healing
more tanks? more dps? weird combinations of abilities to do something different?
it all stars with getting rid of healers and making tanks a more skill intensive job
>>339814663
except in raids chronotank or another tank option is actually pretty common. Dungeons/fractals just were never hard enough to make tanks necessary because it was faster and easier to just dps rush and stack boons.
he's suggesting to increase the pressure put on the tanks by removing healing. presumably, a good tank would be a character/player that is self-sufficient enough to survive an encounter assuming they are properly skilled and equipped.
It's not really changing anything significant, but don't act like it's a terrible idea to have tanks play the same role they do now.
>>339818681
but tanks and healers already had all the skill intensive jobs.
what do DPS do that takes more skill?
Mecha MMO. You automatically start off as slow and tanky, but you can purge armor to make yourself faster with better DPS at the cost of taking more damage.
For a fantasy setting, you could have everyone use a sword and shield. Throw away the shield to use your sword two handed for extra damage but lose the ability to block/parry with the shield.
>>339818669
so you just fly to the location, create the party, warp the players
it's too much effort to un-fix the game for something that didn't appeal to too many players and really isn't very important
>>339815770
>Prioritise character creation. Let people make whatever they want without having to worry about not being optimized because elves aren't good at melee or whatever.
>Don't lock armor and weapons to classes. If you want to be a mage in full plate armor, go ahead.
>In fact, just don't have classes. Let people pick and choose skills they want and roles will form out of that. Design skill trees so there is no clear tank/mage/healer/DPS branch that people will walk down.
Sooo, Skyrim?
>>339813731
We can't, trinity or not, hotkey- or action-combat, sci-fi or fantasy, probably even sandbox or themepark, all of this doesn't matter. The way how we play these and all other games has changed too much.
The time of MMOs is already over and unless video games crash and burn we won't get them back.
It's a pretty deep topic really.
>>339818602
if he dies, then the dps dudes go down swiftly with him
the mission is to avoid dying but through devices that are not related to healing
if you are fighting a giant dragon, lets say, its his job to time the magic wards or the whole party goes down. you could have a group of 20 broken down into teams of 4 that each have a tank that must perform a manual manuever to avoid damage directed toward them
so the cooldown stuff and buff management and other rotations are moved to dps and support roles
>>339818923
Sounds to me like he's actually asking for Path of Exile.
>>339813731
make no dedicated healer class
every class has some sort of healing skills but it only works efficiently in combination with other classes
>>339813731
Sounds like mabinogi
so lets remake old mabinogi
Have the same trinity, but divide up the classes.
For example, instead of having just a straight up tank you could have a physical damage tank and a magic damage tank. Tanks that specialise in pure damage mitigation. Tanks that specialise in crowd control and keeping aggro.
For healers, you could have burst healers that do a lot of heals very quickly but with lengthy cool downs. DoT healers that provide sustained heals. Healers that specialize in healing groups. Healers that specialize in healing individuals. Healers that focus more on buffs/
For DPS, you could have your really fast attack speed DPS. Burst damage. DoT. Debuffs. Group targets. Individual target. Long range. Short range.
>>339818998
So it's essentially no different from a standard DPS race in a game with healers.
>>339819219
Dumb.
>>339818974
Pretty much. Every MMO will have players bringing the old way of playing MMOs with them.
>>339818807
yeah, that would require making build management and buff management a priority for them
so the dps dudes have the type of freeform skill selection mentioned by the other posters here, and its their job to come up with combinations of a limited number of those to deal with all possible scenarios and weaknesses that the boss battle demands
this would mean like a "group prep" phase occurs, where you discuss which members of the group will carry what abilities and theorycraft or mathcraft your way to high dps setups
they are like the strategists of the group who must figure out how much time they have from the tanks and how they can allocate unique dps abilities from a broad range to win in time
just an idea
i dont play mmo
>>339819219
You're talking about Burning Crusade, m8
>>339818596
You do understand the meaning of depth right? Please tell me how quake has any depth OR complexity?
Cuz all I see is a mindless shooter where the only thing you need to think about is where your going to go next based on where the enemy is likely to be and the map layout.. (which by the way is found in MMO's too.)
>>339819219
>Tanks that specialise in pure damage mitigation
Then how is it pure damage anymore.
DFO avoids the classic trinity by replacing it with something else.
It's got:
DPS
Holder/CC
Buffer/Debuffer
DPS does what DPS normally does
Holder keeps enemies in place, in a state where they can actually be hit, and in a state where they can't counter attack.
Buffer/Debuffer obv makes party members better at their job or enemies worse at theirs
The game is all 4 man instances though.
Even the 20 man raid content is made of multiple 4 man groups running separate dungeons simultaneously.
With mechanics in each that help or hinder you based on how the other parties are doing in their dungeons.
You have a great character creator at the start but everyone gets the exact same skill set. A general jack-of-all-trades type character.
You can fight by yourself fairly well but you're not going to get far without a team. All skills stack or combo well together, thus encouraging teamwork.
Like, everyone has a group heal that does 25 HP/s. Not very good. Have a party of 4, everyone activates the same spell and suddenly you get 100 HP/s. Much better.
>>339819496
Have you even played Quake?
>>339819526
>The game is all 4 man instances though.
>Even the 20 man raid content is made of multiple 4 man groups running separate dungeons simultaneously.
>With mechanics in each that help or hinder you based on how the other parties are doing in their dungeons.
thanks, I almost wanted to try that game before I read this
Bard, always bard
A class whose job is to keep the group buffed throughout the whole raid and also raises morale with his lute
>>339819513
Pure damage mitigation means, in this context, a tank that specializes only with mitigating damage.
I do not mean "pure damage" as in "damage that ignores armor"
>>339819231
Maybe, healers duties are in a sense to keep tanks up and by doing so lengthen the time dps have
so removing healers and putting more pressure on tanks and dps may not be revolutionary but perhaps may lead to more creative solutions as tanks now have to do what they were doing before but with more responsibilities and consequences and skill
im just saying healers are the most expendable if we are going to rearrange or cut roles from the trinity
>>339819526
Not being a hot-bar oriented snorefest also helps.
>>339814147
>entire guild confronted you for doing shit dps despite having good gear, and suspended you from raids for a while
ouch.
>>339818315
It also extends the length of the game. if you could have 1 character do anything you would only need to play through the game once.
>>339819634
It's also a side scrolling beat-em-up
>>339813889
>Remove tanks
>Rework healers
This. The restriction of requiring both gets in the way of just having a group of people play. No tank? Call off the raid. No healer? Definitely call off the raid. There's also a phenomenon in MMOs where people don't necessarily want to play the role that their class is best at. For instance, WoW Warriors are great at tanking, but you'd find some of them preferring to DPS instead. Or a healer class preferring to DPS. Getting rid of the role restrictions would enable these people to do what they want and still be able to contribute, and they wouldn't have to call a raid because there are no tanks and/or healers.
Just have melee-type classes be able to tank and DPS at the same time, and give them abilities to negate and heal damage, removing the need for healers. In some ways, some WoW classes already have this. Death Knights and Protection Paladins can tank and do decent damage. Just give them more effective damage negation skills and self-healing and that's it. Rogues could have damage negation through dodging and some kind of magic immunity evasion. Shamans could have a totem that would tank for them (Earth totem), or they could tank and DPS (Enhancement) while the totems do additional damage/control/buffs.
Then have ranged-type classes (physical ranged and casters) to be able to tank at range, DPS, and self-heal. WoW's Hunters already has the foundations. Pets tank while you fight ranged. If they make Survival melee, then Survival could tank and the pet could DPS (either melee or ranged), or pet could tank and you DPS. WoW Demonology Warlocks are the same. For other caster types, give them damage-negating shields--shields could persist until dispelled, broken, or after a duration, in which you could refresh.
>>339819526
this sounds like what I was describing in my comment here
>>339818998
no healers either
interesting gonna check this game out
>>339819742
when I first responded I thought you were talking about BDO :) I was thinking, how could they fuck up so badly?
sorry!
>>339819656
this was shaman and paladin until Blizzard decided they wanted to completely scrap creativity and head straight to panderville.
no one cared that they did DPS lower than druids because they brought windfury, bloodlust, mana tide, BoP, freedom, auras, etc.
can you find the problem?
>>339819382
i think essentially you just need to break the mechanics away from the roles.
there are certain jobs that need doing, aggro management, damage mitigation and causing damage. but this doesnt mean you have to make 3 specialists that only do those 3 things, its entirely possible to split the jobs up and make it something EVERYONE contributes to in a teamwork fashion.
looking at the way D&D 4th ed does things, tanks generally provide some kind of disincentive to monsters attacking other targets, wheras dps classes like rogues or hunters might more often have skills that let them slip out of dangerous situations without being hit, so if a big monster turns on the dickass thief, the "tank" gets some free hits or causes the monster to miss more often or something, whilst the rogue has to use an ability to switch positions with someone or make a free movement to get out of dodge. aggro management should be something everyone manages and not just the tank
likewise healing is something that is essentially a resource every player manages for themselves, but the support classes in that game provide everyone with benefits.
everyone gets to do damage and be part of combat, but its all the little secondary effects that affect the important mechanics.
>>339819631
Yes, a good bit of Q3 when it came out. its an arena shooter. They aint known for their depth man. Call of duty has more depth.
>>339817659
For one, we have to fix levels. Levels in MMOs are broke. The purpose of levels has been relegated to gear so that needs to be changed back. Gear should no longer be an extension of the characters statistics (which is unbelievable as hell) and be the tools they actually are. Once that's fixed, then skills become actual skills and the ability of the character isn't dependent on better gear because the character's skill determines their effective ability to use it instead. However, there can be magical equipment that give bonus' when weilded obviously.
Once that's done then gear can be just that. Tools used to achieve goals they were originally designed to achieve. This makes different classes more valuable because they specialize in specific types of roles that use particular types of gear but are not limited in that regard. This allows for more strategic party compositions to be organized depending on the task the group wishes to achieve.
Which leads to combat. So once all these changes have been put in place, you use your head to tackle content and adapt and strategize different approaches based on what you plan to encounter. Planning on fighting a blue dragon? Then it's probably not a good idea to wear metal armor since the dragon breathes lightning. Planning on fighting undead? Then you should probably bring blunt weapons instead of bladed. Fighting normal brigands with polearms? Then you should bring someone that can attack from a distance or is adept at close quarters combat to render their polearms ineffective. So on and so forth.
This is me just brainstorming and coming up with shit off the top of my head. This is not a definitive way to do this. There are tons of differnt ways to approach achieving a goal of getting away from traditional holy trinity game design.
>>339817707
Absolutely not. That's still using the same design philosophy.
Why not just change how MMOs work? They're mostly all tab targeting type games after all. Those action MMOs like Tera are on the right track. The Holy Trinity becomes a lot less important when you can actually move around to dodge attacks. In normal tab games you're always getting hit, which required a tank to take the hits and a healer to heal the tank plus a DPS to actually kill the enemy.
With those action games really all you need is a DPS. Make it a fast paced action game you play online with friends and it'd be way more fun. Like a multiplayer DMC or Bayonetta or something
>>339814251
it's not so much about making sense as it is about making good gameplay mechanics. What do you propose as an alternative? A DPS/Tank hybrid being healed by a DPS/healer hybrid? Already done, and it will always just be a variation of the holy trinity.
These things need to happen in a group battle: healing, agro baiting (aka tanking) and damage dealing.
>>339819631
i have, you point the crosshair and people and click m1.
Congratulations assholes, you've been discussing this for 2 hours now and yet that despite being told that mabinogi (hotkey rock-paper-scissors) and vindictus (action combat to a literal beat-em-up tier action combat) pander to OPs whole shebang and whatnot, you will no doubt not even try those games and will keep on complaining because MMO(RP)G players are fucking stupid and don't know what they want.
>>339819947
>dps are much more needed than tanks or heals
>when looking for members, tanks and heals are in much more demand
>>339813731
Every MMO that has gotten rid of tanks has failed hard. Not sure if PSO would count as an MMO since its more a lobby based fighter rather than having much in the way of mechanics.
Everyone trying to re-invent the MMO wheel is stupid. There's no need, MMO players like what MMOs have, and people that don't like what MMOs have don't play MMOs.
The two real keys to having a successful MMO are completeness and class mechanics.
When's the last time a new MMO had a smooth launch? Had enough content that worked properly? Feeling like a complete game at launch is the most important thing for any MMO, because otherwise, it will leak players, and nobody wants to play an MMO without a community.
Secondly, rather than trying to re-define the holy trinity, create interesting ways that characters accomplish typical roles. Good examples of this are games like Wakfu or Guild Wars 1.
In Wakfu, every class has several unique mechanics. They have different skill trees that may help with damage, healing, or defense, but no class is restricted to a traditional rotation. On the simple side, you have warrior classes that make use of berserking (gaining more damage at lower health) and skill combos, but you also have classes that must actively change stances to gain additional effects of skills, but using stance changes too frequently will burn the character's resources. You have characters that passively change stance, outside of player control, and must adapt their rotation to match. There's a character dedicated to positioning, who can wall off enemies, as well as pick up other characters and throw them into AOE effects or into better attacking positions or whatnot. They still play into the holy trinity, they just aren't JUST Warrior, Priest, Mage.
Guild Wars 1 gave players huge amounts of options to formulate unique characters. Almost every meta build was dependent on a gimmick, and that shit was cool.
That's all that's needed, just more unique classes and an actually finished game
>>339814513
The tank is an expert at getting attention from the creature, either through psychological baiting or through physical distractions, basically things that really piss of whatever they're fighting, enough to distract from the barrage from the leather faggot behind him or the tranny throwing magic missiles.
>Be Healer or Tank
>In high demand
>Always much easier to find groups
>Laugh at DPS scum being asshurt they have to look so long for groups or people have absurdly high standards for them
>>339820043
That related pic is funny, because blade and soul is an mmo without healers, where everyone can dodge abilities and tanks also blocking well timed for counter combos
>>339820041
Such depth
>>339819947
Few people want to play Tank or Healer so those roles are more efficient at what they do and a group requires less of them.
Like, can you imagine putting together a group for any type of content that required equal number of all three role be brought along?
Unless you're doing 3 man content, you're gonna have a bad time
Some games take the realization that those roles are "less fun" further than others and just make everyone DPS from the get go of their design instead of simply requiring fewer of them for content completion.
>>339820043
>MMO(RP)G players are fucking stupid and don't know what they want.
pretty much this
>>339813731
>Having everyone stand around while one puny guy stands still with a shield shouting at the boss repeatedly is retarded and i have no idea why it's been allowed to continue for so long.
what requires more skill being a tank or being dps?
why do you think there are so much more dps than tanks?
>>339820234
>upboating your own posts
eppin
No classes. Everyone is the same guy. It is literally impossible to progress without teaming up.
There, fixed MMOs.
>>339820257
>why do you think there are so much more dps than tanks?
Because the devs made content that required a large number of DPS and few tanks to complete?
>>339813731
I said it before and I'll say it again. PSO did classes and online rpg gameplay right way back in 2000. And they did it by not lockin you to arbitrary roles and not having faggy cooldowns. Any class/race can hit hard in some way, or support in some way or somehow. Some better than others to establish bests but the fact remains you're not locked to annoying MMO garbage limitations.
>>339819980
i can see what you are saying, and actually there were games like UO that were entirely skill point based and didnt have levels, but the game also didnt revolve completely around combat, you could successfully play the game being a grand master beggar, or bake fish cakes for a living and never lift a sword once, success in that game was just about getting rich and buying castles and things, it didnt matter how you got there.
but theres always going to be min maxing in any open system. and if your game is going to feature things like "getting hit by monsters" then theres always going to be a best build for dealing with that situation.
if you have 3 guys and a whole massive list of skills, all putting a few points in each and becoming jack of all but master of none is never going to beat specialisation, if one guy takes all the skills to wear the heaviest armour and avoid the most damage, whilst his friend takes all the skills to heal and buff and the 3rd guy sits at the back with his master archery super snipe skills they are going to outpace the 3 chumps who are kinda shit at everything.
specialisation is always going to be better than generalisation, its something thats hard to get away from.
>>339820043
Pretty much this, I haven't touched Vindictus very much but I know in Mabinogi if you're not dealing damage or supporting you're practically doing nothing, everyone can defend from attacks and everyone can counter, everyone can windmill and everyone can do EVERY SINGLE FUCKING THING
because there are no classes
of course the game is dead because people don't like this system, and despite having a MMO thread every week on /v/, it's been suggested but nobody ever jumps on.
>>339814501
>what are discogeddons
>>339820452
then there would be enough tanks
if a game requires for example 1 tank 1 healer and 3 dps, like wow, then you would expect there to be 1 tank for every 3 dps
but that's not the case
tanks are rare
not because the game requires less tanks
everybody knows if you go tank you're guaranteed a spot in most groups
people pick dps over tank because it's easier and requires less responsibility, even now with how dumbed down tanking is in games like wow
Tank is a retarded concept in a multiplayer game.
One guy gets to play an enjoyable role while the rest stand around facerolling and moving out of fire.
>>339818315
What that guy >>339816142
is saying can be achieved even without changing win conditions. Dark Age of Camelot had it pretty close, with things like Blade-turn and buffs being a necessity.
There's also Wakfu which has more strategical positioning by virtue of being a TRPG and many classes have the ability to move themselves, allies or enemies.
In general, re-introducing a hard trinity would actually be a step up if the specialization and cooperation aspects could be re-established, and as mentioned above there's games that already have more spokes on the wheel than just those 3.
>>339820764
tank is a concept that literally only makes sense in the context of multiple players.
you tank for other people so they dont get hit.
>>339813731
I like shields. If you give me DPS that can use a shield and still be viable I'll be ok with it, but you wont.
>>339814158
Yep, easily the best MMO in years, and currently one of the few video games actually worth playing.
>>339820764
I wouldn't say its more enjoyable, if anything its more stressful.
Also if those guys are actually capable of consistently moving out of the fire, they're qualified to tank. The problem is most of them aren't even that, which makes them not just bad tanks but also bad DPS. (because they're mostly just plain bad)
>>339820689
more classes are qualified to queue for DPS than for Tank. Perhaps players don't like the flavor behind the tank classes or specs? if all classes and specs were distributed equally, would there be more or less tanks than there are now?
some things to think about
>>339820874
it also makes sense if you want to survive large amounts of damage in a singleplayer game
it also doesn't need to be multiplayer, could just be multicharacter, like final fantasy
>>339820881
Play Monster Hunter
>>339820942
>more classes are qualified to queue for DPS than for Tank
it's not about the classes, they thought that when they gave the DK tanking abilities, people still didn't pick tank because they didn't want to play tank
>>339820881
Vindictus has Fiora (or Fiona) who uses shields, and her main source of damage used to be whacking people with her shield after counters.
>>339814251
You're stupid and make no sense. Removing a class that is able to hold monster attention and take a hit or two just because you don't like it is fucking childish.
>>339820942
>Perhaps players don't like the flavor behind the tank classes or specs?
the flavour of the class or spec being that of taking responsibility and carrying the weight of your group on your shoulders, yes
>healer does just heal and dps/add situational buffs
>tank does just tank 1 mob at a time, might add some mini-gameish function to make it more fun
>dps takes care of cc so there's usually only 1 mob at a time while dpsing at the tanks target
>mobs does just whack at random targets if they are not tanked by the tank
>dps have different kinds of cc depending on class (long duration but can't be re-applied, shorter duration but can be re-applied, instant, channelling and all that shit with different combinations)
could it work?
>>339820550
I was mainly sticking with combat since that was the purpose of the thread. I agree that there needs to be different avenues for players to explore regarding character growth, be that through combat, political influence, financial gain, or any combination thereof.
The type of design I'm talking about actually penalizes people that pigeon holing themselves into one specific role because they gimp themselves in regards to other areas of the game. But that only holds true when there are other areas of conquest beyond combat as I previously stated. Sure, player A may be a combat monster and player B may be able to heal him through anything, but neither are adept at haggling or have the social skills to gain influence with the people of power in the city that could get them materials or influence they may need to achieve a goal.
>>339821148
Congratulations, you've made Final Fantasy Record Keeper.
>>339815253
Because the meat shield is using high enmity moves that cause detrimental effects, doing steady damage, throwing heals that raises enmity or casting offensive spells.
A tank doesn't just use "oi cunt!" every 5 seconds. They have a lot of things they need to do in order to keep enmity high.
>>339820983
in a singleplayer game you are always going to be the target for damage though.
and yes in multi char games its basically the same way, you want your tanky chars up front.
>>339821224
Denying your players access to content is both bad and shady. At this point a lot of players would be too dumb to notice the bad, so its just shady for taking advantage of the mentally challenged.
You should offer various ways in which players can tackle the content, not make them choose between essentially locking themselves out of or becoming useless at a type of content.
>>339821313
It used to be that they did "oi cunt", and it was honestly a better system because it kept DPS a non-factor for tanks and let them focus on being the best turtle they could be.
>>339820986
>>339821086
no thanks, Im not into asian power rangers games
Basically, Remaster FFXI and start from the beginning.
>>339813731
How to fix MMO... stop trying to fix MMO, WoW went to the shitter the second they tried to "improve" it.
In b4 WoW was never good, if you dont like the genre stop ruining it for others....
>>339820452
>Require large number of DPS
But that's wrong.
Most content that isn't DPS-Check timed can be done without a DPS it just takes forever.
DPS is most popular because of edgey "I like doing big damage numbers it makes me feel important" players. Unless there's a DPS check (which is just a way for devs to lock out content by equipment anyway) or time limit you don't need DPS at all for most games, they just speed things up.
Games are better when classes do more than one thing though.
Tanks who only job is to tank damage is boring as fuck.
DPS who just do damage and nothing else is boring as fuck.
Healers who only have healing and barely noticeable attack/def up buffs are boring as fuck.
>>339821224
i think the problem mainly comes in cementing certain tasks too heavily into certain classes.
dont make tanks the only guys who manage aggro, and dont make healers the only guys who manage the parties health pool.
sure you can have some classes lean a little towards certain jobs, but dont make it their exclusive realm. its boring to play whack a mole healing all the time, or just be spamming taunt just the same as its boring to be mashing "huge crits please" whilst standing behind a taunted enemy.
give everyone interesting attacks, and spread the jobs of aggro management and healing out amongst the whole party and now its much more fun to play.
>>339821519
WoW introduced the crowd that doesn't actually like MMOs and is trying to change them into shittier things, though.
>>339821379
I never said it denied them access. I said it penalized them. Everything is achievable, it's just going to be hard to achieve if you only master one aspect of the game.
>>339821452
Having to juggle dps, high enmity high cooldown spells/abilities and throw heals all at the same time is a lot better than spamming "oi cunt" though. It's a lot harder and a lot more exciting when your DPS are cream of the crop.
>>339813731
I enjoyed corruptors brutes and masterminds in city of heros.
Corruptors were ranged damage with debuffing. Brutes were beserker and masterminds were the pet class. Just a wierd amagalmation instead of flat out tank healzor derps like the lame ass fantasy games were spitting out
>>339821358
you can still choose whether you wanna go more on the offensive or on the defensive
I'm sure there are multiple singleplayer games where you can choose between a sword and shield and a 2-handed sword
it's always a trade-off between attack and defense, depending on what game you play and who you are fighting, one can be more useful than the other
obviously you wouldn't taunt enemies or some shit, I'm just talking about the defensive capabilities of a tank
>>339821452
>using oi cunt
>not stacking sunder armor while all the dps has to wait for you
>tfw sunder armor is dead
All we need is trinity to be expanded, and more roles to be added. Lineage II tried to do it right (buffer, debuffer, siege tank, synergetic dps, summoner, crafter - and so on), but developers didn't think that people can exploit multiple accounts and bots, so several classes were less enjoyable to play and delivered less impact (for example, cat summoner was needed just for one buff every 20 min).
>>339821531
Abolishing DPS checks is honestly a better way to fix MMOs than anything else, since DPS checks are just a crutch that screams "we honestly have no idea how to make this entire archetype relevant or necessary, so we will force them on you with this hard check", rather than coming up with designs for both enemies and player classes that are interesting, challenging and relevant.
>>339821591
Well, that's alright then, but really kinda doesn't go with the social dynamics. If people are looking for a tank they're still gonna want the specialist that's the most specialized. The less specialized you become the more you become a singleplayer character, the more specialized you are the more you are built to function in a group that supports each other.
>>339813731
>>339813889
>>339819831
>remove thing i like
>rework thing i like so that i don't like it anymore
>make something i don't like to replace something i do like
the fuck is it with dps faggots trying to kill peoples' fun? i like tanking and i like healing, why don't you knock off the game theory and stick to something you're good at like bitching about numbers and shit instead of doing something that requires bashing more than two braincells together? hey here's an idea, let's get rid of dps and make everyone a tank or a healer or a support instead? damage gets done naturally by tanks and maybe supports to a lesser degree. why? because fuck you, that's why. i don't actually think it'd be any better, but your shitty "hurr let's eliminate shit i don't like" also wouldn't be any better and at least in this case it fucks you faggots.
>>339821627
I would prefer if they stuck with more tank related things rather than DPS and healing thrown in.
A tank already performs crowd control in essence, so advancing that venue by throwing in Interrupts of certain dangerous boss attacks that require a charge bar to fill is one thing, there's also other types of CC, aswell as positioning of enemies, etc.... all things that naturally come with tanking, rather than adding all that stuff.
>>339813889
This is wrong.
>Alienating people who would want to heal or tank instead of just mash
Maplestory barely survived this.
Remove all roles. Make Habbo Hotel with raids.
>>339821868
Welcome to Tera. where brawlers tank by outdpsing everyone.
>>339821643
well mostly i associate the role of "tanking" to being "the guy taking all of the hits", it makes less sense in a singleplayer game because its going to be you regardless.
>>339815190
> For example, they could make it so the enemy would hit them
So Taunt?
It's literally the same shit anon, except in video games it's a more simplified system since it doesn't have the depth of P&P RPGs.
Are people forgetting what "threat" even stands for? It's the dumbed down game version of fat guy trying to flank/hold enemy from reaching others.
>>339821920
>Maplestory barely survived this.
what
paladins never really tanked in maplestory, they gave everyone the ability to tank
>>339822067
guess i have to be a loli with giant hips now, doomed to a life of spamming emotes now
>>339822079
if you only think of that aspect of tanking then everyone is a tank in every game where you only control 1 character
but that's not all a tank is
>>339822113
Yeah ignore that guy.
4th Edition is shit and basically stole everything FROM MMOs, he's clearly lacking in any actual experience to draw from.
>>339821531
People are still going to elect to bring a large number of DPS because clearing content as quickly as possible has natural benefits both in game and in real life.
>>339819831
(con't)
For those who like the roleplay element of class restrictions, like wanting to be healsluts ("I'll heal you all with the power of love" or whatever) or the fantasy of being an indestructible meatshield, just give each class group (healer, melee, and ranged/caster) something unique to them. It shouldn't be too powerful that it will reinforce the necessity to have it in a raid (aka stacking).
For instance, healers could have a one-time small-to-medium heal that heals the raid, but disables it for other healers once it's activated--basically a panic button, and it prevents healer-stacking because of the use limit in an encounter. Say a WoW Priest could have a one-time, instant raid heal. WoW Druids could have raid health regeneration. WoW Shamans could have a raid chain-heal that prioritizes the most damaged raid member, then bounces upto 10 or so times, even on the same target. This way, each heal class could have something unique as well.
Melee classes could have damage mitigation/negation buff for everyone and have the same one use limit to prevent melee-stacking. WoW Rogues could boost damage evasion for a duration. WoW Warriors could absorb all the damage and take only a small fraction for a duration. And so on.
Ranged and caster classes could have damage buffs. To prevent stacking, the raid can only benefit from one buff. WoW Mages could have resource regeneration. WoW Warlocks could have a damage boost. And so on.
>>339822248
Depends.
In theory? They shouldn't if they follow the categorical imperative, since it also condemns them to having a shit time trying to get parties if depending on their class.
In practice? People have no idea how to make good choices, so yeah, impatience wins again. But monetizing impatience has become the primary source of income of the game industry for the last decade.
>>339821884
Yeah, all that stuff plus the things you mentioned plus having good gear and setting up the binds to equip it is basically PLD/NIN in prime XI era.
>>339822334
You've described a partys limit break bar in FF14 anon.
>>339822145
desu if tera taught me anything it's thatunless your boss is immobile you want someone to hold fucking aggro otherwise you spend more time running after it than doing damage because nobody want to get hit
>>339813731
Blade & Soul almost has it right in my opinion, but they fucked up with trying to balance the classes around their shitty 1v1 Arena, so what it all boils down to is that the classes tend to be jacks of all trades with some quirks.
>>339822418
PLD/NIN actually has something I much prefer: Timing your own blocking/evasion, i.e. managing your toggle-able or very short cooldown little extra defense/evasion buffs or stance switches to adapt to what you're about to take.
If they wanted to make shit more minigamey and modern they could always have Magic Knight tanks that have shields with elemental polarity that can be switched on the fly or something.
>>339815324
You're an over sensitive faggot, just thought I'd pop by and let you know
Ban everyone with shit ping from buying the game.
Now developers don't have to dumb down everything to cater to people with 100 year long reaction times.
>>339822364
naw dawg, a focus on DPS, or to take it one step further, a focus on burst damage over sustained, is mathematically superior.
Like, the longer you're in content in higher the odds that something goes wrong.
Everyone preforming correctly for 2 mins straight is always more likely than everyone preforming correctly for 5 mins straight.
>>339822536
Yeah that sounds like a mix of Paladin and Rune Fencer. Sounds like fun to play.
>>339822067
Reminds me of a certain MMORPG named Aion. There is a class, that existed from the start: Templar - a dedicated tanking class with lots of HP and defenses. But there was a period, when Templars were unwanted in groups, because he could not hold the aggro. So first, people tanked with Assassin: pop evasion and deal high damage, but Sorcerers had still to log out and log back in to reset aggro. Then Gladiator took the role, because of self-heal and biggest amount of HP between non-tanks. Then developers made some bullshit encounters where only Templars could survive, but still they were less preferred for main tank role. Sorcerers tanked instead. Now I have stopped playing, and don't know, if it was ever fixed.
>>339822673
Yeah, in game theory your choice is the optimal one because it most ensures success, but in a sociological/moral philosophical context, you should only discriminate in favor of/against certain archetypes when making parties if you also wish to be discriminated against yourself when seeking parties, rather than it being more accepting and allowing people more diversity in getting content done.
But yeah, from a sheer game/success perspective, yours is the most "efficient" answer.
>>339822079
>it makes less sense in a singleplayer game because its going to be you regardless.
Not necessarily. I like how they do it in Diablo games (and similar games) where you can be whatever class you want and be able to solo or group play.
In D2 and D3, there are healer/tank/DPS specs of sorts, but it wasn't necessary to spec into them for group play. It would be nice to see that in an MMO game, in an MMO-scale.
I've always wanted to play as a viable caster tank in all encounters, and not just gimmick ones like in WoW with Warlock-tanking encounters and shit. Playing a traditionally melee class to tank gets boring.
Perhaps the paradigm change is what's needed to renew interest in MMOs.
>>339822963
No anon, when I say tank by outdpsing everyone I meant they're a dedicated tank class with plenty of attack that count as if you were blocking.
>>339823134
Doesn't RIFT have caster tanks or something?
I feel like there might be another game that has a tankmage, too.
i want a tank that instead of standing in one spot climbs onto the boss or tackles/grabs and wrestles with it to keep it off from everyone else
that would be cool
like imagine if bosses wanted to kill everyone but the tank 1st and it was your job to constantly tackle and push the boss away from your allies while they also had to move and avoid if you couldn't constantly pin the boss down
Tanks is the second most integral class right behind the healers. DPS exist to speed up a run; it is by far the most mindless role in MMOs, and it attracts exactly the audience you would expect: mindless shitheads. It's worth noting that the best DPS you'll find in all MMOs come from players who are tank or healer mains and DPS when they don't feel like paying much attention to the game.
A good MMO will incorporate boss positioning into the encounters, and it acts as an extra mechanic for the tank to manage. Being skilled at mob stacking or boss pathing isn't a small feat, and it goes unappreciated by DPS mains, who have no idea what mechanics exist in an encounter outside of "hit the things". On top of that, tanks CD management is far more vital than anything from the DPS. A tank that fucks up CD management either screws the healer's CD management as they try to keep him alive, or they cause a wipe. When a DPS fucks up CD management, then their numbers are slightly lower than optimal. Lastly, there's balancing threat generation with maximizing DPS. Unlike the DPS, who can mindlessly bash on a boss and scream at the tanks and healers when they get aggro right off the pull because "muh opener", tanks have to maximize their damage output while also fitting in enough threat rotations so that the DPS can think even less.
Tanks coordinate the whole encounter. Healers keep the tank alive.
DPS are just along for the ride.
The only people who have the right to call tanks easy are healer mains. If you ever told a healer main that it's really difficult and skillful to play a DPS, they'll laugh in your stupid fucking face.
>>339814206
Underrated post
Remove Tanks
Remove Healers
Give Everyone their own sitational set of skills and make it part of the regular gameplay for people to swap their priority mid battle or to adjust accordingly to what just happened.
>>339823147
Isn't it the same? You deal more dps => you generate more aggro.
>>339823398
Not getting aggro from overdoing it on DPS is up to the DPS.
If the newfags infiltrating the MMO community are starting to lay the blame for someone getting aggro that isn't the healer on anyone but that person themselves then fuck those people even more than I already hate them.
>>339822178
right, thats what im saying, the concept of "tanking" is kinda moot in a singleplayer game.
>Lowmanning HNM with just tanks and healers
I miss 05~10' era XI.
>>339823398
>DPS are worthless, they only exist to speed up the run
>try to raid with tanks and heals only
>hard enrage
>wipe
lol
>>339823671
The Last Story was a tank simulator.
>>339814408
>gw2 sucks
I've played many mmos and gw2 was worth its money. And yes it wasn't at all a real gw game.
>>339823725
>enrage
Oh look, its the mechanic that only exists to force you to take DPS along because they have no other justifiable reason.
>>339813889
So, blade and soul?
>>339823725
>Enrage
>With top tanks and healers
>>339815770
Sounds some what like a updated Mabinogi.
>>339813731
We fix mmos by removing faction vs faction bullshit.
Just with that the game turns out 50% good.
>>339823965
Oh yeah that's another good point.
Depending on how retard friendly the game is, the encounters might be scaled in a way that even the most braindead DPS can get through, so the check is so low that actual brain-having tanks/healers will just meet it anyway.
You pretty much need to have bosses with instakill attacks to make DPS challenging since the healer can't save their ass from their fuckups then. Sadly most times that just ends up shitting all over melee DPS while Ranged DPS laugh all the way standing next to the healer.
>>339813731
You got to change the gameplay significantly. You can't just remove one of the 3 class types and expect it to work.
The problem is literally the gameplay. Attacks are autoaimed, so you will get hit. Because of this you get the most tanky person to take those hits.
Boss fights in particular (but any instanced fight in general) have high damage and last so long that without healing you will die. So you take a healer.
Everyone else is just DPS because you've got a tank and you've got a healer, all you need now is to kill shit.
Destiny is a shit game but it's a good example of how you can change the trinity system in MMOs. You're not forced to get hit, you can avoid any attacks and the need for healers and tanks does not exist. Every class has their own unique little gimmick but everyone is expected to contribute their fair share of damage to the fight.
>>339814632
Burn.
>>339823398
Fuck off, no role functions without the other and they're all as braindead as the next.
>Supposed to work as a team
>Tank has a god complex while healer plays whack a mole and pretends it's difficult
>>339823671
not if you think of the tank as the guy who can take a lot of damage, which is what the name refers to, and is a big part of being a tank
>>339824078
FFXIV disagrees with you.
Remove all healers and tanks. Make only DPS, no healing skills, only healing items that are limited in use, no resurrection in combat, fail the instance/event/dungeon/content if there are X deaths total (X is number of players in the group). Have all damage be avoidable or completely blockable in return (they have to work for it)
>>339813889
This right here is why EVE and PSO2 are the best MMOs on the market
>>339824274
To be honest the whole "the tank is our master and commander and what he says goes" thing is also a recent development, probably born out of the rarity of tanks and the stupidity of DPS in this generation.
Way back in the olden days, the Healer had the final say in everything, since they could also best gauge the groups performance and its limits in regards to when someone might die.
>>339824274
Butthurt DPS main detected.
>anyone but the healer having a god complex
Do you even play MMOs?
>>339824159
>you can dodge attacks and nobody has to be a tank or a healer
That's called an ARPG.
>>339824324
Skyforge.
>>339824276
right but, in a single player game, one person takes all of the damage: you.
the point im making is, generally in multiplayer games the role of a tank is to absorb all the damage so his teammates dont have to.
in a singleplayer game, its just you, you arent protecting anyone else. wearing heavier armour and carrying a shield means you take less damage, but you are still taking all of the damage.
>>339824324
That's called an ARPG. These games exist. Go play them.
>>339824324
So Monster Hunter with groups larger than 4 players then?
What they should do is making healers and tank fun.
>>339815256
>>339815460
Nah the reason why it failed was because there was literally zero end game content. After you got into the end game stuff there was no point in continuing to play because you already experienced most everything the game had to offer except group raids. Which were complete ass garbage because 9/10 times it was so unbalanced that it would take hours of stringing one to two enemies at a time so that your entire team doesn't wipe at the front door.
>>339818315
Remove the ability for HP to go up, and you solve most of the problems.
>>339824306
Factions mmos are the cancer that needs to end, all it does is to kill the community real quick because 1 side will always be overpopulated and so stomping the other side.
>>339824682
you just made a new one though. what do you do when people take too much damage? game over?
>>339816504
Capricorn here, I usually try finding the "unique" class. Typically something that does Debuffs.Either that or whatever class allows me to punch things.
>>339824413
If you do not change the gameplay, you cannot remove the trinity from MMOs. That's just a fact.
If an enemy will hit you and you cannot dodge it, it's just a fact that you should have one player take the hit and that player should be the one who is the hardest to kill.
Likewise, if you're going to get hit a lot, you have two choices. Have someone who can heal the damage you will take, or kill shit before it kills you. The second is almost never an option. So you need a healer.
You cannot remove these roles otherwise the gameplay falls apart. This kind of MMO gameplay is designed around these roles, they are the foundation of it.
The only way to change these is to change the gameplay. And there is literally no reason this cannot happen (except for people like you who thinks it's not a real MMO if it doesn't have this shitty gameplay). Take a look at Destiny/The Division, MMOs without dedicated roles. Monster Hunter gameplay would work fine as well, it has no need for dedicated tanks or healers but works well online. Hell, even something as ass as Witcher 3 gameplay would work fine.
>>339820234
I'm pretty sure they just wanna erp all day long
>>339816504
>libra
>ranged dps is my most hated role
tank>melee>healer>POWERGAP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>magecucks
>>339824510
it's not about who takes the damage, it's about how much damage you can take
if you can take a lot of damage, you are a tank
even in a singleplayer game, some characters are designed to take a lot of damage and some aren't
>>339824882
You're missing the point. There's nothing wrong with the MMO "holy trinity". It works. And any gameplay dynamics that are added are best suited following that paradigm.
The gameplay you're describing already exists. Those games are called ARPGs. Go play them instead of MMOs if that's what you want to play.
>>339813889
>>339813731
Literally GW2.
>>339818703
You only really need a dedicated tank for one boss out of the six in the raid, VG, Gorseval doesn't even need one if you do no updraft.
Most of the raid fights don't need a tank.
>>339824383
I always found healers to be the best leaders.
I think in general the amount of good players has decreased which led to "the guy who pulls, let him call shots"
>>339824413
>Butthurt DPS main detected.
See here we go, I could you tell I'm actually a tank main but you wouldn't believe me anyway
several things wrong with holy trinity, no big damage classes (mage, 'guts' melee, anti 'npc race' archers etc) to deal with regen, there are at least 3 types of tank (evade, resist damage, blood ie max total hp and some def) and no debuff, im going by people would assume healer is buffs too.
so to answer OPs question its about branching the so called 3. that fixes shit.
you also forgot utility classes but I don't blame you since they are either shoehorned in as professions to augment your character class or are NPC's.
>>339825356
I don't believe that you play MMOs at all. I think maybe you played WoW once back in vanilla, and you sucked shit, so you hate the genre.
>>339825121
ok, but my point is, if you play the wooliest of mages in a thin velvet robe, you are still going to be doing all the tanking. you are the tank, the healer, the DPS all rolled into one every time you play. because its just you.
>>339825327
You're missing the point. MMOs have shit gameplay and it's about time someone tried to fix it.
Can you imagine if a single player game had gameplay like WoW? It's be called shit, because that kind of gameplay is infact really shit. The closest we've had to this is Kingdoms of Amalur, and that game still had more action based combat but failed horribly.
>>339825327
Why are you so retarded? You're talking as if you either have "massive multiplayer online" or "action" and not both at the same time. There's not even the same 'category'. At least apples and oranges are both fruits. Fuckin imbecile.
>>339825534
It's almost like singleplayer and multiplayer games are different and need to be designed differently, which means comparing them is retarded.
>>339823761
>>339820926
This tbqh. I've played so many MMOs and they were all a let down and didn't live up to my time in WoW.
GW2 is the only MMO I've played that actually surpassed WoW and is the best MMO on the market right now. And until other games the current new patches and content are actually making the game even better rather than worse.
>>339825476
yes, we are arguing about two different aspects of the tank role in MMOs, I get your point
The holy trinity only exists because of ass-backwards "aggro".
Give mobs just a tiny little bit of intelligence, and the whole concept of "tanks" becomes moot because they'll just switch to the people who are doing the healing or doing the damage.
EVE does it right with their NPCs. They'll switch around their target constantly, prioritizing ships doing the biggest damage or doing the most heals. The more intelligent AI in EVE behaves like players, applying appropriate debuffs to "healers' and "DPS" accordingly.
Remove "aggro". Tanking should be the tank or tanks literally intercepting attacks aimed at his party members.
Giant skeleton is gonna spit a fireball at your priest, you can either
1. stun or otherwise interrupt him
2. get in front of your priest and eat it.
3. hope your priest moves his ass
Remove in-combat healing, save for a few emergency abilities like once-a-day spells and restricted potion use. The only way to consistently heal should be to swap with someone and gtfo so you can get bandaged up (which in itself should only do so much), which brings me to my third point:
Make "raids" a unique experience, more akin to a castle siege than to a 5-man party spread across fifty people. Players should be operating large weapons, dedicating manpower to out-of-combat roles like healing and re-arming, and requiring real teamwork like 5 knights holding their shields in a wall to stop a ferocious attack, or several mages casting a ritual together to make a fireball the size of a house. In no way should running up and swatting a three-story monster's toes ever be effective.
If pvp must exist, make absolutely no expectation that it's to be balanced outside of large battles (which would probably operate like raids above). Tell the people who whine that their sneaky character can't take out a hulking armored dude 1v1 to fuck off.
>>339825534
>can you imagine if a single player game had gameplay like WoW
What is Dragon Age?
>>339825715
No they don't. You're falling for the lies of companies like Blizzard. I bet you also believed it cost millions a month to run a MMO, didn't you?
There is no reason you couldn't make a MMO with decent, action based combat. It's been fucking done before.
>>339825472
Why, because I said all roles are braindead?
Gathering herbs on my priest right now.
>>339825828
Good example, Dragon Age is shit.
Or at the very least, the things that are the most enjoyable about Dragon Age have nothing to do with combat.
>>339825828
The first Dragon Age didn't. Not sure about the second, but the third was the closest to it. And look at how bad that game was.
>>339825573
You're a fucking moron.
MMO
ARPG
They're two different genres. Learn how to read, you fucking dingus.
>>339825756
But monsters in MMOs DO switch to people doing massive damage and big heals, thats why it's your job as a tank to take hate.
>Eliminate tank and healer as roles
>Add collision
>Shield walls are a thing, "tanks" must actively get in the enemy's way rather than be an aggro magnet
>Pushing/grabbing becomes an integral part of fighting humanoids
>Ranged characters have to worry about positioning because they can't just stand behind the melee guys and shoot missiles through them, so better circle around (sacrificing safety for damage) or look for high ground
>Healing can be there but be tremendously impractical mid combat, wounded character must be protected so they can be healed after the fight's over. Carrying wounded players is a thing.
>No resurrections, you die and you're back to the safe zone in noob city
>>339825828
Real talk is origins worth playing?
I hear so much shit about it I'm scared to try.
Never played previous instalments
>>339824763
Yes.
>>339826040
Origins is the first one and it's alright. I dropped the series after playing the fucking demo for 2 because it was so bad
>>339825769
>Remove "aggro". Tanking should be the tank or tanks literally intercepting attacks aimed at his party members.
Still sounds like guild wars 2. Though it's not considered tanking, you can body block many projectiles in the game.
>doing slothasor with people who can't dodge
>he's about to shake and cover them all in conditions killing everyone
>be chronomancer
>go invulnerable (immune to all damage) and jump up and down in his hit box, absorbing all the projectiles
>tfw
>>339825994
MMOs don't have to have that shitty WoW inspired gameplay they do now. Tell me where it's stated that they have to.People like you are one of the contributing reasons to why MMOs are shit. You think MMOs have to follow a set formula and they cannot change or be different, so developers cater to you guys and we get shitty games none stop.
>>339826026
I remember someone actually on aggy diggy making something like this, it was 3D enviromental with 2D sprite based like Ragnarok, and as a tank you could tackle/jump into/go for really low blows to slow down or just flat out stop the enemy dead in its tracks, seems to be dead like all 4chin projects though.
>>339813731
Remove tanks, keep DPS and healers. Make bosses switch aggro during phases/special attacks. Make healing spells build up aggro way more slowly. Give threat-reducing abilities to everyone except for healers.
This will force players to use their new threat regulating skills with caution and knowledge and this way there will be less slacking shitheads who don't do anyting. Problem solved.
The intrinsic problem with MMOs is that in order to gain profit, they need to create content that takes a long time to do, in order that people keep playing the game.
Unfortunately this model severely affects the quality of the gameplay, because it turns into a grindy mess.
>>339826380
One day we will remember the truth of sandbox.
>>339826172
>WoW inspired gameplay
>WoW is the first MMO ever
You're a fucking retard, and you have no clue what you're talking about. You're bitching for the sake of bitching that one genre doesn't mimic a different genre.
Go play ARPGs if you like cooperative gameplay that doesn't have tanks, or healers, and staying alive revolves around dodging attacks. You fucking idiot.
>>339815469
that's fucking sick, weirdo
>>339826008
>I'm a skeltal, fighting a party of adventurers
>There's a priest wearing cloth keeping everybody alive by constantly healing
>And there's a mage who's melting all of my buddies
>But the guy with massively thick armor just made a face at me, so I'll attack him along with all of my other skeltal friends.
Yeah, nah, it's retarded.
>>339826157
I haven't played GW2 so this isn't me judging that game, but your example is exactly the kind of unintuitive, immersion-killing thing MMOs that want to be good should go out of their way to avoid. No running inside hitboxes.
>>339826579
You're right, all of the shit MMOs that came out in the last 10 years weren't "WoW inspired" they were "Everquest-inspired".
Fucking retard.
>>339816504
>Libra
>ranged
I never pick range. Its either whatever the current Monk class is or tank
>>339826610
>made a face at me
More like, shoved his shield into my eyesockets the instant I looked away from him.
>>339826172
Not him but faggots like you are the reason MMOs (especially ones from korea) keep trying to be DMC and fucking sucking because of it. Multiplayer character action games sounds like an awful idea even if we ignore the issues that would come with having to play the game with latency.
also
>all these people saying "Remove X", "Remove Y"
kill yourselves. MMOs need more roles to fill like Support in the form of debuffers/buffers
Or just remake FFXI
>>339826690
>if I narrow my scope to begin when WoW launched, then it means that classic MMO gameplay is all WoW inspired
You're literally retarded.
>>339816504
>Gemini
>ranged ever
BEST MONK BUILD, TANK, OR MONK TANK. FOREVER AND ALWAYS
>>339813731
I don't get it, Healing, DPSing, and Tanking in Tera is pretty fun.
You can even skip out on the Tanks if the DPS are really good players for a decent portion of the content.
The healers are debuffers, support skills, and healing at the same time. Tanks are like DPSing from the front while mitigating damage. DPS do what they always do but generally have just as much to worry about since evading boss abilities is fairly consistent.
add more tanks, off tanks and tanks for the adds and tank rotations and 1v1 tank vs tank duels
seriously tho healer and dps is boring as fuck
>>339826741
Most aggro abilities are "Taunts" and affect every mob around the tank
>>339826579
Actually yeah. Although WoW copies things from older MMOs, it's the MMO that laid the foundation for the type of gameplay we have now. MMOs before it didn't have that kind of gameplay, but you wouldn't know this because you never played MMOs before WoW.
I will say it again. There is literally no reason a MMO couldn't have ARPG gameplay (it exists), FPS gameplay (it exists), a beat'em up (it exists) or even fucking RTS gameplay (it exists).
People like you are literally the reason MMOs are so shit and will remain shit.
>>339826765
And despite what you're saying, some of those multiplayer action games are fucking huge. Bigger than almost any other MMO on the planet.
People don't want more shitty WoW clones. That's why since the release of WoW there has not been one successful MMO released of a similar style to WoW. They have all had a peak playerbase in the first month, and from there just lost players continually.
>>339826656
There is actually an option that stops you running through enemy hitboxes, though I personally don't use it because I find it annoying even if it is less immersive.
though you can do it just by being in front of the boss in the direction everyone is, it's just more reliable to be inside.
Make it more like real life infantry tactics. You've got support, assault, and security elements. Support lays down heavy fire from long range (IRL this is machine guns, mortars, anti-tank, and close air support) to suppress the enemy while the assault element moves to a flanking position. Assault then moves in, from one flank across to the other, to finish off the enemy with accurate weapons. Throughout this the security element is on the flanks and rear of the body watching for other enemy movement (in a MMO context they'd handle trash, and having a security role in a party opens up new gameplay mechanics in bosses, as you have one or two players dedicated to handling whatever unexpected shit the boss fight throws at you). Additionally there are medics (healers) and communications (buffs, or some other new mechanic) with the unit's leadership.
>>339817071
55hp/33hp monk was beautiful.
>People actually think MMO gameplay is the way it is because of technological limitations
That sort of gameplay was pioneered 20 years ago. You telling me in 20 years we've had no advances in technology that would allow for a different type of gameplay?
>>339826610
Your problem is you think every tank just spams a shout ability. I play MMOs where that won't work. A Tank needs to throw out heals to the DPS along with the healer. It needs to use his high enmity spells/abilities that debilitate. It needs to keep his damage up also to hold that specific type of enmity.
I'm not sure what braindead MMO you're playing where a tank only has 1 ability that needs to be spammed, but it's not the same as mine.
>>339827104
>I'm not sure what braindead MMO you're playing where a tank only has 1 ability that needs to be spammed, but it's not the same as mine.
That's literally every western MMO released in the past decade.
>>339827096
A massive amount of people still have fucking garbage internet connections, yeah.
>>339827207
Ok, so not the same as mine then.
>>339826956
An MMO with ARPG gameplay is called an ARPG. You fucking idiot.
The "holy trinity" predates WoW. It's the foundation of the entire genre. You can't eliminate it without turning MMOs into ARPGs.
Team gameplay that revolves around avoiding damage instead of tanking and healing damage while everyone is dealing as much damage as possible is an ARPG.
Why is there no other MMO that lets me bash things to death with musical instruments of all kinds?
Not to mention even if there are, do they allow you to cast magic, healing and block+counter whilist using an instrument?
How has no other MMO stolen this character and skill freedom for everyone? They've had 12 years to do it.
>>339827354
So explain to me how I've played FPS games with 126v126 combat. Yet we somehow cannot get MMOs working with any kind of action based combat, even when these games are 99% instanced and limited to 4-6 players per instance.
You're being fed a load of shit. And you actually believe it.
>>339826520
>EVE sandbox
>everything is gated by ridiculous time sinks
>content is barebones at least, half of it is even ultimately broken
>all the space is mapped, including wormholes, which is finite too
>emergent gameplay that is all about dicking each other
I rather have something like Acherons Call or DAoC, than current sandboxes.
>>339814382
So make them tanks?
>>339827398
So quit making shitty MMOs and start making better MMOARPGs. Jesus you're so fucking anal about the name of the genre (when MMO just means massively multiplayer online and specifies nothing about the actual genre).
The only way to fix MMOs is to let the genre die. Nothing good has come out of it in over a decade. Of every genre in existence we can all agree it's the worst genre.
>>339827805
>Of every genre in existence we can all agree it's the worst genre.
ASSFAGGOTS
>>339827609
Or SWG, I wasn't specifically referring to EVE when I said Sandbox.
The key is eliminating the need for premade raids and use the time to increase the size/depth of the world.
>>339827843
Nah. ASSFAGGOTS are shit, but they haven't reached MMO levels of shit just yet. They need another 5+ years to sink that low.
>>339827726
How can I put it any more clearly? It's a different genre.
It doesn't need to be created. It already exists.
It's not an abandoned genre. It's still popular and developed.
Go play that instead of MMOs.
What you're doing is the equivalence of bitching about motorbikes and how they should be more like cars. Just drive a fucking car and let people on motorbikes enjoy their motorbikes. You fucking retard.
>30 different classes
>primary class is selected at character creation and is permanent for that character
>secondary classes are earned via specific quests, every class can be unlocked as secondary
>no leveling system
>abilities and passives are unlocked via spending skill points in talent trees
>skill points are obtained by using power crystals (lack of a better term)
>power crystals are obtained from rare mobs
>rare mobs are just normal mobs that spawned with slightly higher stats and a colored aura (small chance of occurring based on mob's "level")
>power crystals are tradeable
>maximum of 100 skill points
>skill points and secondary class can be changed and redistributed for free at any inn
>can mix and match various classes together like Berserker/Pyromancer or Necromancer/Druid for example, or can choose to invest all 100 points into your primary tree and be a pure Berserker, Necromancer, etc.
>skill points in secondary tree can not exceed the amount of skill points in primary tree
>every class, no matter the configuration, will have 30-40 different abilities when all 100 skill points are spent
>every class has a different purpose in combat. some are damage dealers, some are healers, some are controllers, some are buffers/support, some are debuffers, some can perform multiple roles albeit not as well as a pure, etc.
>combat functions identically to WoW, but on a modern engine that's even smoother and less laggy
>every mob in the game is assigned a class and skill point distribution, only use abilities that players can use themselves
>PvE functions identically to PvP, just against mobs with scaling AI based on preset difficulty
r8 my ideas
>>339827469
>put bear to sleep by instrumental bed-time music
>smash him with a 20lb instrument
>>339813731
Blade and Soul just removed the healer and pretty much everyone can tank.
>>339827398
>An MMO with ARPG gameplay is called an ARPG
Holy fucking shit. MMO with ARPG gameplay is MMOARPG. Do you even now what MMO stands for? You can have MMORTS, MMOFPS, MMOTBS, MMO anything, because fucking anything can be Massive Multiplayer Online game.
>>339816504
gemini, absolutely not
melee dps 4ever
>>339827941
Might be a bit shorter than that. MMOs had an experimental phase, ASSFAGGOTS are already completely identical and generic right off the bat.
It's just lacking in number of clones, but we'll get there soon enough.
>>339827951
Nah. It's more like comparing a muscle bike to a superbike to a motorhog.
They're all fucking bikes, quit being so anal about it. Your bike in particular is shit and falling apart. It needs fixing.
>>339828145
No.
MMO is the genre. The "RPG" is redundant on the end of it. You millenial fucks can all shut the fuck up.
>>339827398
>The "holy trinity" predates WoW. It's the foundation of the entire genre.
not really true at all, AC didnt have the trinity, neither did UO, they both predate wow.
>>339828301
We still get plenty of experimental ASSFAGGOTS. They all just fail.
There is no denying ASSFAGGOTS are shit and have an astronomically high rate of failure. But they have 2 successful games vs MMOs 1 successful game (in like 12 years).
They still have a bit of catching up to do.
>>339813731
The problem isnt the holy trinity
Its that nothing better replaced it
Everything either copied it leading to the strategy getting stale
Or scrapped it leading to no strategy just play the most op dps that patch
>>339828339
mmo isnt a genre, its just a "massively multiplayer" appelation.
>>339828339
No. MMO is a modifier. It means nothing unless you're also specifying the genre.
A RPG is a RPG. If you slap the MMO modifier on it, it becomes a massively multiplayer online RPG.
MMO on it's own means shit, people are just too lazy to type MMORPG.
>>339828434
mmorpgs must have a way higher failure rate than assfaggots.
its just that nobody has been able to make a game better than dota or WoW
>>339828443
We need... The triple trinity(tm).
Each of the 3 roles of the trinity... Has their own trinity.
>everyone's discussing why MMO's are bad
>nodody has said anything about singleplayer content
why do these gooks make singleplayer games and just add some shitty MMO features to them and call it a day
>>339828496
>>339828526
MMO is the genre. I know you stupid fucks don't understand what genre means, given your confusion on what separates ARPGs from MMOs.
>>339828339
MMORPG is the genre. MMO describes type of the game. Nice projecting, by the way.
>>339816504
pisces
sadly yes
>>339828695
Blame western developers for inventing this shit and popularizing it.
Is there a genre western developers haven't ruined?
>>339828661
you joke but if tanks could only specialise in elements so you have to fight for agro for specific moments and the healer has to know which tank is going to be the target and when if they do their job right would add a bit of depth
>>339828661
Honestly if the trinity was expanded, that would be pretty nice.
>>339816504
Yea, I'm a dirty Leo DPS melee machine
>>339813731
We don't. The "holy trinity" works because it's both incredibly simple in concept but also allows for a lot of variation too.
One guy draws all the attacks, one guy keeps everyone healed and one guy causes the main portion of damage.
There's plenty of variation as well. Is the tank a typical high-health tank who uses taunts a lot or is he a character built along the lines of doing very high amounts of damage quickly but also has agility so high that no enemy attacks can touch him? Is the DPS a guy who uses lots of high damage attacks with bonus damage for backstabs and has abilities to drop aggro from him or does he rely on muliple stacking DOT effects? Is that healer one who uses passive buffs and regens or is he built around large healing done whenever the party gets too low on health?
There's room to come up with your own interesting takes on the formula, and you can blur the lines between the roles as well, but the core formula works.
>>339813731
You would love STOs space gameplay.
Everyone heals themselves, everyone tanks and tries to make builds that shit out DPS like crazy.
Oh and STO's dungeons are pretty much dead and the one that is constantly open is lagging like crazy due to the server shitting itself with damage calculations caused by 10 players and multiple NPCs damage boosting/defense nerfing skills.
Oh yes, and the chat is utterly void of life in combat except for maybe that one guy who knows exactly what everyone is supposed to do and who has promoted himself to your boss and is micromanaging you and then calls everyone retards when he himself fails.
Oh and that other guy who uses damage parsers and posts the results at the end of the match letting you know that in the team of five you came second best or worst.
tl;dr For the love of god, keep the trinity, if you don't you might as well make a singleplayer game.
>>339828339
lmao
For all the bad stuff, there is one good thing that can be said about the generic mmo combat system and it is the reason it has had such taying power, it manages to make a team of random people work together well enough, if you want to replace it you must come up with something that has that same quality.
>>339828836
>Is there a genre western developers haven't ruined?
Ways to suicide
>>339828815
>pisces
I am so sorry, anon.
>>339828934
>>339828743
>>339828526
>>339828496
The millenials of neo-/v/. This is what happens when absolutely every game released has multiplayer tacked onto it.
The genre has always been called MMO. Is it shorthand for MMORPG? Yes. Does that change that the genre is called MMO? No.
>>339826907
This, actually had fun running a healer in that game but goddamn that game has a bias for elins.
>>339828964
One of the reasons I detest this constant "I want more action based gam!!!"
Grinding with simple based and slow combat is great because it also opens up the ability to create discussion amidst gameplay.
>>339820926
>>339825717
GW2 brought bank Tanking and even Taunt mechanics in HoT you retarded fucks, because even Anet realized that the trinity exists for a reason.
>Remove tab targeting and hotkey based combat
>No matter what class you are you can survive any encounter by knowing when to dodge/block
>Remove things being balanced around healers. Every class has its own dedicated method of self healing and the support classes are more buffers/debuffers with some heals rather than full on healers
>infact, remove things being balanced around tanks while we're at it. being beefy should be a choice of the player not a need of the dungeon. Once you git gud, you should be able to clear shit with a full group of DPS if they know how to dodge/block.
>While we're at it, remove the concept of leveling up it makes no sense and serves no purpose instead we're going full monster hunter. Things have always been gear dependent in MMOs so now we only have gear, no levels.
>>339813731
tanks have no place in games anyway if you recall older RPGs like Final Fantasy or the like it was always DPS and healer, sure some guys could take more hits than others but there wasnt a designated tank class and it worked just fine
putting Tank role into MMOs games was the biggest mistake
>>339828742
is "game" also a genre? you know those ones that arent massively multiplayer
>>339813731
It's a shame that FFXIII was so poorly recieved because its combat system was really clever.
You had melee attackers who dealt "stun", which recovered quickly
And you had ranged attackers who dealt "stunlock", which slowed the rate of recovery that stun usually had.
I mean, all these attacks dealt damage, but it was like who gives a shit, because once the enemy's stun limit was reached, you could DMC-juggle them for like a 5000% damage boost, so really that was what the game was about.
If I were designing an MMO, I would make all enemies have quickly recovering HP, and I'd have 3 classes. I'd have healer+tank, who drew enemy fire and healed/protected himself and others. I'd have the DPS, who dealt damage to the enemy. And I'd have the ranger, whose attacks prevented the enemy's HP from recovering quickly and who could use his skills on the other two to provide status buffs.
If I was feeling ambitious, I'd make the DPS's game play like DMC, make the ranged player's game play like a shooter, and make the healer+tank's game play like an actual MMO / micro-RTS type game, with lots of different cooldowns and resources to manage maintaining their own team's stats and their own.
>>339813731
Tanks are necessary for pve unless you want a clusterfuck mess like vanilla gw2.
Tanks should have to manage and juggle aggro between several mobs, actively mitigate and not rely on passive stats where gear >>>> skill, saving cooldowns for big hits, and intercepting target shots, and managing mob position. It's why I loved warrior tanking dungeons in TBC, but sadly all this shit got thrown out the window in most raiding encounters.
MMOs won't ever do this because its too hard and too much pressure for the average casual player. Its why tanks are rarely played. It's why WoW has made tanking more braindead with each expansion to the point they don't even have to manage aggro so even shitters can get by without knowing what they're doing.
I like lack of trinity for PvP, but its shit for PvE.
>>339828849
>Implying it's a joke
Tanks would be split into
Straight up tanks: These ones would get hit a lot but reduce damage a lot. Basically your average MMO tanks right now.
Skillful tanks: These ones would block or dodge attacks just before they happen. If they do it right they take little or no damage, if they fuck up they get hit hard.
Sustain tank: These ones don't have huge damage reduction or the ability to dodge attacks, but they keep themselves alive by healing any damage taken (whether this is straight up healing themselves or draining the enemies hp).
Healers
Healer: Straight up healer, lots of healing, nothing fancy.
Shielder: Doesn't heal directly, but shields to prevent damage in the first place. Lots of buffs to increase defence or reduce damage taken.
Crippler: Makes people live longer by reducing the damage enemies deal.
DPS
DPS: Straight up damage dealers, nothing fancy about this.
Controller: Doesn't deal as much DPS, but is good at disabling enemies so they can't fight back.
Enchanter: Does his DPS by making allies hit harder and faster.
Man, that was hard. I could do this shit all day.
>>339815256
the 60 dollar expansion with 20 bucks of content is what killed Guild Wars 2. It was in a stable place up until then and until development on a conventional expansion started the game was making huge steps in the right direction and away from the same stale themepark.
Since the expansion came out there has been one update worth anything, otherwise all development effort has been put towards more glider skins for the cash shop or towards the next 60 dollar expansion.
>>339829379
>tfw paladin cecil did the most damage and had the highest hp and defense
>tfw tanks in MMOs do pathetic damage just for the sake of defense
in FFXI I wanted to be a paladin cause of cecil and turned out your only purpose was to get hit and you did garbage damage, dream crushed
>>339829104
>The genre has always been called MMO
If by always you mean for the past few years then yeah, you're right.
Back when I started playing MMORPGs, everyone called them MMORPGs. Because we were smart enough to know other MMO genres exist and are not the same thing.
>>339829608
Why does this sound like Tera
because this sounds like Tera
>>339829749
I've never played Tera. But if someone else has done it, how fucking hard can it be?
From what I understand, Tera also has action based combat. Which is proof you can ditch the shitty tab targetted hotkey style combat of MMOs.
>>339828914
there is no variation in 'one guy draws all attacks'
>>339813731
This is true.
Why the fuck would the game make it mandatory to take damage, when it's always been a mark of a skilled warrior if they can avoid it.
Literally every game with tanks is always them being shitty CC machines who do no damage, even though their weapons and skills are flashy as fuck.
What's the point? you "soak" damage, the game REWARDS you for getting hit with dumb passives or taunt abilities.
Atleast GW2 did something right, no matter what you play with, kiting and dodging is super important.
>>339829838
congratulations dimwit
now close this thread and go play tera
>Game claims to be an action MMO
>Its the same shit as WoW but you have to hit M1 hundreds of times instead of auto attacking
I'd just like an MMO that doesn't rely on faux turn based bullshit to be honest.
>>339829867
You just have no imagination. You could have a summons based tank where the summons all draw high aggro as they attack, also allowing the tank to keep multiple enemies engaged with a summon for each enemy, and rather than being based on high armour and health the tank simply attempts to keep up a good supply of disposable, aggro-drawing summons.
>>339830063
I hate promoting it because I really think they're doing a shit job with it, but Blade & Soul is what you're looking for.
>>339829513
Tanks are a Devs lazy way out, instead balancing all classes and giving em a way to avoid damage they made that one class thats only role is to take hits,
i dont know about you but i dont recall Gimly or Aragorn getting beat up by the orcs so Legolas could shoot his Bow in peace
>>339816504
>Cancer
>Healer
Seems about right.
>>339829890
if you make the tank able to avoid all damage whilst keeping the attention of the monsters, then healers have no job
if you make the tank unable to keep aggro then the tank has no job.
the trinity is there because it provides a situation and a mechanic for teamwork, one guy keeps the monsters attention and fights it, the healer keeps him alive and the other guy deals a lot of damage.
if the healer or the damage dealer get hit, they arent as defensive so they take more damage. someone has to get hit, ergo the guy with all the armour and shields should do it.
"Avoid damage" is meaningless phrase.
In all raids, all players have to avoid damage.
Why the fuck do you think "Don't stand in fire" happens?
"Active defence" always fucks up for MMOs because MMO servers are not completely stable in their networking and when you get wiped because the servers lag compensated you 10 ms too late, you get fucking salty.
Which is what I remember launch GW2 being. At times it felt random what it accepted as successful dodge roll.
>>339813731
Look at Guild wars 2 - worked just fine...
>>339813731
Add a Control class, change Healer to Support
Tada
>>339828964
The tank/healer dynamic is great because it gives a clear and identifiable center of gravity where players should focus their attention, the support characters will know who to focus their abilities on, the DPS can identify which monsters are more dangerous and require to be targeted first, everyone can keep track of how well the team is doing as a whole by watching the tank health.
>>339825346
Please I like that game and even I know that there was no reason to go anything but DPS. And even with the expac there is still no reason to go for a heal build. It is a wasted slot.
>>339830430
Make it so avoiding damage is a skill players need to master. Not something you press when it's off cooldown to avoid damage for the next x many seconds.
You don't need healing items in Monster Hunter, but if you fuck up you're going to take some major damage and need to use healing items. Same logic could apply to MMOs.
>>339830658
OH ALSO: design encounters such that no one class is required, but diversifying makes it easier
>>339830828
MMOs are not singleplayer games
They will never work with the same methods
>>339830897
Says who?
Also, if you're unaware, Monster Hunter is not a single player game and there is even a MMO based on it using the same mechanics and gameplay.
>>339830430
both 'tank' and 'healer' can do the same stuff as everyone else, killing mobs (theres also buffs and CC for the more pacifistic guys)
>>339830063
Reason why I stopped playing Skyforge
>>339831029
Monster Hunter is singleplayer game the same way Dark Souls is
>>339831101
Except the majority of content in Monster Hunter is designed for online play, and you can play the entire game online if you want to.
>>339831152
You could say the same about Dark Souls
>>339831101
Dark Souls is singleplayer with optional multiplayer.
Monster Hunter is multiplayer with optional singleplayer.
>>339830269
its all the same shit with different color though,
tank as a role as unimaginative as it gets
>>339830640
GW2 removed the wrong role
>>339830626
>"Active defence" always fucks up for MMOs
They made it work in PSO2 by making all active defenses clientside. Granted it is purely coop game, but still, there are ways.
>>339830897
works just fine for PSO2
Everyone wanting to get rid of the trinity go play GW2
It's fucking terrible. No fight can have any type of unique or specific mechanic because there's no guaranteed who's gonna show up to play. Either that or all the bosses can be defeated through a couple different universal strategies based around the universal abilities of every character which is equally as boring.
Specialized roles breed socialization as well. When you NEED other people to get anything done then a community is formed.
So I can only assume those don't want to socialize are those that want to see this change. So might I ask why you're even playing an MMO? It's the ONE thing they bring to the table separate from other genres. Go somewhere else, let us enjoy our genre.
Boss fights are puzzles. Imagine the boardgame Perfection. Now imagine all the pieces and slots are a circle. That's what you're asking for
>>339830670
the great tank/healer dynamic works great for braindead DPS and attentionwhoring Tanks/healers
note that the tanks are always in demand... because normal guys dont play em
>>339830828
right but then who will want to play a healer at high levels when everyone is just avoiding all damage, you are literally playing a pointless class at that stage.
and if you make the game about just skillfully avoiding damage, theres no reason to have a "tank" class either, so now essentially everyone is just a damage dealer with ninja dodge moves. you flattened the whole game.
>>339829358
10/10 game design, where do i sign up?
>I will make this genre more complex by removing features
>>339830381
When I played GW2 long ago, it was a mess to do dungeons unless I rolled with 3 warriors and a guardian with my mesmer because warriors and guardian could actually take a hit while dealing obscene DPS.
If you don't have a tank role then you just have chaos and people will favor ranged because they don't have to chase to actually deal damage and don't have to deal with nearly as many hazards as a melee does in general. And if there's no tanks they'd have to give ranged tools to kite/avoid damage, which would just be a kiting fest which is boring if all you have to do for every encounter is just kite the boss around.
>>339829358
>remove teamwork
>remove all class identity and uniqueness
>remove all sense of progression
ArenaNet plz.
>>339832331
>Only tank/dps/healers can create class identity
>It's impossible to create flowing combos between classes
>Somehow gear is not a sense of progression
0/10 see me after class
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