I know Fallout 4 is universally hated on this site, but who else thinks that the East Coast Brotherhood of Steel finally got it right in FO4?
>don't give into "machines are people too!" bullshit
>openly recruits new members from the wasteland
>is developing, not just studying, new tech and self-sufficient capabilities
>ditched the holier-than-thou knightly rhetoric
>>339197823
That was how they were in all games except for 3. It was only Lyon's division that were pussies.
That right but bethesda still fucked up
>Can have teleportation
>Nope better blow up the base LOL
FO4 BoS is ruined by this.
>>339197823
They accept outsiders too easily. Dance loves you the moment you meet him and you get a good rank and free power armour just for helping Danse once.
Plus they blow up the institute full of sweet useful tech after killing everything inside. They've still caught retardation from Bethesda.
>we have to kill the Institute to stop them from weaponizing robots
>attack them with a weaponized robot
>>339198305
I guess in Maxson's eyes, the Institute was so messed up that he didn't want anything of it to survive.
The Institute was messed up though
>>339198606
>attack them with an absolutely ridiculous weaponized robot who shouldn't return and does nothing but blow a small hole in the ground that anyone with a few explosives could have done
>>339197823
>ditched the holier-than-thou knightly rhetoric
We didnt play the same game
>>339198606
Their problem with the institute was never with weaponizing robots. Their problem with the institute was the fact that they were making synthetic humans
Dumbass
>>339198809
>gets obliterated in FO3 from an orbital strike
>is being repaired in FO4
>here have some magnets
>he's fixed now
>>339198845
No the BoS hated the shit out of robots, not just synths. There are members that will give off-comments about how you should trash Codsworth if he's with you for example.
>>339197823
F4 BoS was;
Todd Howard; shit guys the players actually like the enclave what do we do?
Some random schmuck: just steal from the old fallout, the BoS was pretty cool there
Todd Howard; it just works
I joined the BoS because I wanted Maxson to bang me.
>>339199117
I think its robots with real AI that they hate, not just any robot.
Liberty Prime is just some mindless robot who shouts anti chinese propaganda so that probably doesn't bother them
>>339198305
>>339198667
>no option to become the leader of the Institute and join forces with the BoS
I always see people saying both sides are fucked up.
Could someone fill me in on this? My PC ate shit recently and the game is in my backlog, I don't care about spoilers.
>>339197823
>don't give into "machines are people too!" bullshit
Machines are obviously not people but they show all signs of being sapient.
>inb4 no they are just PROGRAMMED to look sapient!
Fuck off. Fucking humans are programmed to look sapient too, we are nothing more but biomechanical robots equiped with all the tools necessary for independent reproduction.
>openly recruits new members from the wasteland
Which is fucking retarded, not only because BoS was always isolationist and xenophobic, but also because it allows synths to infiltrate their ranks.
Just fucking think about it
>hey you know those robots that are indistinguishable from humans and tend to spy on actual humans? We hate them!
>oh, you look like a human and want to join our sekrit club? Welcome aboard!
>is developing, not just studying, new tech and self-sufficient capabilities
They fucking nuked the Institute.
An organization that is supposed to HOARD ADVANCED FUCKING TECH nuke THE MOST TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED PLACE FULL OF MOST ADVANCED TECH KNOWN TO HUMANKIND
>ditched the holier-than-thou knightly rhetoric
>implying
Yeah, they are literally Space Marines now. Big difference.
>For The Emp- I mean, Ad Victoriam!
So are the Human-like Synths basically humans? In Far Harbor DiMA claims there are no tests to confirm, so does that mean they are basically just clones and not machines? Or is it Bethesda being retarded?
>>339199959
>>openly recruits new members from the wasteland
>Which is fucking retarded, not only because BoS was always isolationist and xenophobic, but also because it allows synths to infiltrate their ranks.
>Just fucking think about it
>>hey you know those robots that are indistinguishable from humans and tend to spy on actual humans? We hate them!
>>oh, you look like a human and want to join our sekrit club? Welcome aboard!
I was hoping they would have had some sort of crazy surgical ritual to see if a person is a synth or not. Something that would not only show a person isn't a synth, but also show their devotion to the cause.
>>339199959
>sapient
I would've went with sentient.
>>339199913
All sides are fucked up.
BoS is literally Space Marines but hypocritical.
Railroad is SJW tier since they don't just want to save sentient synths, they care about them more than humand and some of the actually think they have to save NON-SAPIENT ones too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8akM5pAlNg
Institute are evil scientist for the sake of being evil scientists and are fucking retarded. All of their cruel experiments have no purpose, they developed sentient machines to do minor work that could be done by normal machines, etc.
Minuteman are incompetent as fuck but I guess they are the lesser evil when compared to all others.
>>339200058
Well when you kill a human-like synth, they all drop "synth components", so there's still machine in them.
Not another FO4 factions discussion thread, we know all factions in FO4 are shit.
BoS and power armor are a few things Fallout 4 got right. Fusion core sperging aside, I don't see a better way to do power armor in a Fallout game.
>>339200348
No, they clearly show the ability to think on an abstract level.
>>339200348
>I would've went
I would have gone with would've gone
>>339200531
Just saying, sentience > sapience
>>339200378
>Minuteman are incompetent as fuck but I guess they are the lesser evil when compared to all others.
Minutemen are just farmers and babysitters, the literal bitches of the Commonwealth.
>>339200585
>imblying speech patterns can't be included in text for convenience alongside social contractions and abbreviations
>>339200598
How?
Sentience is just the ability to feel while sapience is the ability to think on an abstract level like humans do.
>>339200753
Well at least they are not retarded per se, just incompetent.
>>339200523
Yeah.
1 step forward, 5 steps back.
>>339200875
One has value, the other has potential.
I'll take the value of emotionally driven thought and eventual development over abstract thought and rapid development.
>>339201143
Sentience is pretty much required to be sapient though.
>>339201249
Thus making it better by default.
Sentience > sapience
>>339199537
>No option to un-fuck the social policies of the Institute and spread knowledge across the commonwealth
But yeah guys, sending up Synths that cause paranoia and murder civilians for official business is a GREAT idea!
>>339197823
Maxson was a little cunt, thanks for the coat
>>339201112
I'd argue it's one step in a completely different direction. But this is one of the very few cases where they really got shitblasted for some of their decisions, chief among them the voiced protag.
Not even the normies and paid publications stomached that shit and it's safe to say it won't come back. It's all iteration.
>>339199537
Why would the Institute as crafted and the BoS Maxson in Boston division ever join forces? That's like asking the Enclave and BoS to just get along.
Wasn't sysnths originally from weyland yutani, here in f4 they not just rip off the idea but outright use them as weapons, felt like lazy writing.
>>339201408
I don't quite understand your reasoning.
Elaborate.
>>339199959
>Which is fucking retarded, not only because BoS was always isolationist and xenophobic, but also because it allows synths to infiltrate their ranks.
To be fair, they just kept that from the old polices, though other than the player did they actually recruit anyone from the commonwealth?
>>339201502
Voiced protag isn't bad per se.
It's bad because not only does it take a lot of mnoey an effort that could be put into more important things, it also severly restricts just how much thing the PC can say since it all has to be recorded rather than just written. Not to mention mods.
Ending with BoS is the best way to go right?
I heard siding with The Institute ending is shit, as are all the others besides BoS.
>>339201852
Synthetic humans aren't exactly a new concept friend, it's more of a blade runner thing more than anything.
>>339202101
Yes.
From the wiki
>Apart from the three Orders, Knight Captain Cade resides in the medical bay, treating wounded soldiers and assessing new recruits in order to see if they're combat ready.
>>339202012
Shit man, it's late.
Sentience has inherent value, imo, as a trait. It lets us be aware of the world around us, it drives our inherent curiosity and draws us together.
Sapience has potential value. We have the potential to become intelligent. We have the potential to build cities. We have the potential to create sapient life.
But only because we have sentience.
>>339202345
That's interesting, I couldn't remember if I saw any guys in that faggot armor like I did in FO3, and I sure as hell didn't join BoS and their Vertibird crash fleet either.
>>339202402
Oh you meant "better" in that way.
I wouldn't really call it "better", more like "vital". It's like saying that foundation is better than a building, which is not exactly how it goes.
It's also hard to compare those two since one if them is basically an upgrade to the other.
>>339202690
Agreed. But like I said, it's late. You definitely put the point across better.
>>339199959
>we are nothing more but biomechanical robots equiped with all the tools necessary for independent reproduction.
>humans are robots
Railroad shills get out.
>>339201408
Sapience is a higher level than sentience.
Squirrels are sentient. Humans are sapient.
>>339202690
>>339202782
>>339203019
SPARE ME, PLEASE!
It's fucking cyclical. Stop.
>>339202841
Railroad is retarded since it's not just a movement that tries to protect sythns since they are sapient, it actually favours them over humans and some of those retard want t osave non-sapient machines too.
>humans are robots
Well shit, are you triggered by the word "robot"? How about a "machine" then, since we are objectively machines no matter how you look at it. Just because we are biomechanical and our origins are a mystery doesn't meant you are some kind of special snowflake who is above the categorization.
All of that doesn't fucking matter really. Everything is just space dust anyway.
>>339200317
its said in f4 that the only surgical way of detecting a synth is......an autopsy. Normal exploratory surgery kills you. (its bullshit bethesda thinking, i know)
>>339203472
X-ray?
>>339203472
Were x-ray scans or anything similiar even invented in Fallout universe? Or were they lost to the Great War?
>>339200523
i LOVE the power armor design
but i just cant get over the fusion core bullshit
its literally in the power armor description "micro reactor that can fuel the armor for 200 years of CONSTANT USE"
>>339203667
You can only choose one.
Don't disappoint me.
>>339203667
Just use a 1% use mod. What really kills me is how weak the jetpack is.
>>339203667
Not that I'm defending it, but actually it was more than 200 years since the war.
If you *assume* that all power armors were running all that time and that fusion cores found in the game are just an improvised source of energy, it makes *some* sense.
>>339203667
They probably should have made the more advanced power armor not have this limit yet be slower or some shit and the lighter ones that actually don't last as long be faster yet need cores
>>339203775
T-51 while wearing Desert Ranger armor.
>>339203560
>>339203571
pretty sure they exist, autodocs can find everything that is wrong with you
but guys, are you trying to put logic and reason in a bethesda fallout?
its silly 50ies post nuclear times!
>>339203775
Ranger.
I never liked power armors anyway.
>>339203938
You're a pure and beautiful soul.
>>339203870
constant use is not being in a storage its walking jumping punching shit and powering all the systems
>>339197823
>>339203775
advanced enclave armor mk 2 (f2 always was my favorite of the series)
>>339203870
The ideal solution would be to have Fusion Cores function like Settlement generators.
They have a fix energy value they make, and have to feed the power armor systems with that value. The more mods your PA uses, the more energy it requires, the faster your Fusion Core dies.
They could even have different Fusion Cores, civilian ones you find on generators could have low caps, Military grade ones could have higher caps.
>>339203938
God tier
>>339203976
>I never liked power armors anyway.
Something is wrong with you. See a doctor.
>>339204259
Pretty good choice
>>339204369
Or, you use a series of jury rigged power cores until completing a mid-late game quest where you find a proper power core because most suits should need a replacement by now for another two centuries of power.
For bethesda's sake this is smoothing over the fact that any suit you run into thats been off should still have plenty of power.
>>339204681
a totally acceptable solution
have a f****** cookie for being like 50 times smarter than bethesda
>>339204821
>f******
>b-but humans are merely biological robots there's nothing special about consciousness
atheism has to fucking die already
>>339205060
This thought has probably been been since deism was the equivalent of atheism.
>>339205060
I wish I saved >>339204904 for you.
>>339205060
>there's nothing special about consciousness
But there isn't, it's just a function of a very advanced brain or similiar device.
Making sentient robots is just a matter of technology we don't yet possess and might never develop.
As it seems It was developed in Fallout universe though.
>atheism has to fucking die already
What does religion have to do with this? Or are you one of those retards who think we are speciale because LOL SOULS
>>339205060
Why don't you take that consciousness and shove it up your ass meatbag
The brotherhood was the only thing I really liked about 4. It was comfy as fuck to arrive on the prydwen after running some missions to gear up. I actually did the "Le infinite quest" shit willingly.
>>339205060
Sapient synths have consciousness.
What, you think you are special because you came out of your mums pussy or something? Half the human population was in your mums pussy, nothing special about it.
>>339205436
>it's true if I want it to be
ok
why does fallout 4 have such a boner for robots?
>>339205891
The fuck is your point?
>>339202203
Who cares about mods?
>>339206146
That you're making claims without any evidence
>>339206196
Bethesda games tend to have hunge mod support.
>>339200058
They seem to be born and grown artificially, but with a few additional plastic components in their body somewhere.
>>339206262
It's evident that synths are sapient since they are literally indistinguishable from humans. If you can develop a computer complex enough to account for that many possibilities and make decisions based one experience, you basically replicated the concept of consciousness.
There is literally no difference except for the way in which humans and synths are made.
>>339206598
It's not evident at all. There is literally no evidence for this
>>339205436
there is 2 true AI in non bethesda fallout
zax, that is an entire base
and skynet....that is an entire base
in f2, you can put skynet in a brain bot but he is a retard if you dont have 200% science to find him an experimental cybernetically enhanced brain to put it in
the fallout universe is different than ours, computer science is really not advanced but medecine and nuclear physics are SUPER advanced
pre-war AI in bethesda games are bullshit (mister handy, im looking at you) the pipboy wouldnt be this shitty if you could put a true AI in a mister handy shell
>>339206716
>It's not evident at all
What part of "synths are literally indistinguishable from humans" did you not understand?
What do you think consciousness is then? If they can act exactly like humans and form the same thought processes, what's the fucking difference?
>>339206765
All you said is correct but how exactly does it relate to my point?
>>339206958
>what's the fucking difference?
That they are not sentient. Just because you create a computer program with complex algoritms doesn't mean you've created a being
A toddler can understand this
>>339207105
>Just because you create a computer program with complex algoritms doesn't mean you've created a being
Define "being".
"complex algorithms" are an abstract concept used to describe reality. Human brain could be described with them just as well.
>>339197823
The Brotherhood is closer in 4 to the originals than it is even in NV; however, Maxon is a fucking incompetent moron who is unrelateable in any sense.
Still, despite how retarded they are, it's probably the most lore-friendly thing Beth has done with Fallout.
>>339207103
half venting half explaining that bethesda done goofed with AI.
it shouldnt be this developped in the fallout universe
>>339207105
>Just because you create a computer program with complex algoritms
What do you think human brain is?
It's literally a computer, only difference being it's made from a different material and far more effective at processing than any of human inventions.
>>339207354
Yeah but what's done is done.
And from what I remember ZAX was pretty damn advanced. Not as much human like but very close.
>>339207213
We're discussing sentience, which a computer can't obtain
The only real way you can prove a computer can be sentient is to point at a real life example, which doesn't exist. The only being we know is sentient are humans, for supernatural reasons
>>339207229
> it's probably the most lore-friendly thing Beth has done with Fallout
Since when is BoS destroying the most advanced tech in the world "lore-friendly"?
I'm lovin all this indistinguishable from humans crap
Did you forget the sperg out massacres that you hear about? And that dude in diamond city
>>339203472
Well I would imagine that anesthetics would be pretty damn rare in the post apocalypse. Especially when super mutants and gunners inhabit most of them
Just because they're not nice doesn't make them "old good". BoD in FO4 is reskinned Enclave.
>>339207529
>The only being we know is sentient are humans
Not quite true, the only being anyone knows is sentient is themselves. They just take it on trust that everyone else is. There is no such thing as a test that proves sentience, but this also means there is no way to disprove it.
>>339207529
>The only being we know is sentient are humans, for supernatural reasons
I like that this discussion is going nowhere because people obviously don't know what the fuck they're talking about or did any google searches before spouting """educated""" guesses about what a term means.
>>339207529
>supernatural reason
Disregarded, try including merit in your next replies.
You still didn't define "being".
>>339207946
>le solipsism meme
Fuck off right outta here. Even if you're the only sentient being in the planet and I'm a figment of your imagination this bullshit line of thinking has no place in a discussion at all. It has no evidence, no support and is only discussed about in bullshit philosophical circles.
>>339208032
>Disregarded
Simple Definition of supernatural
: unable to be explained by science or the laws of nature : of, relating to, or seeming to come from magic, a god, etc.
Fits consciousness perfectly
>You still didn't define "being".
Ignore the word, it wasn't what I meant
>>339208158
>It has no evidence
neither has sentience in synths
>>339207642
Are you implying that mental conditioning and cerrain behaviours being triggered by specific events is virtually impossible in case of human brain, no matter the technology?
Because that's ficking dumb. This is no different to how instincts work.
>my phone like me reacts to input therefor it's also sentient!
>>>/railroad/
>>>/lgbt/
>>339208278
Are you dense?
You are, aren't you?
They're as sentient as any person simply for the sole reason they can live independently and learn. You MIGHT have a point about doubting their sapience, but it was shown before that they also can have abstract thoughts.
>>339208189
In that case it all boils down to "we don't know".
I don't know if you have sentient and you don't know if I am, we can only assume based on the fact that we behave in a similar manner.
So do synths. The way in which we are created or from what materials is not relevant.
>>339208385
If your phone is literally indistinguishable from humans then I want to know just where the fuck did you get it from.
>>339208532
Plenty of things can live independently and learn that you wouldn't consider sentient
You're being tricked by a machine that plays on your emotions and is programmed to act human, which is just what they want
>>339208795
>Plenty of things can live independently and learn that you wouldn't consider sentient
Such?
>>339208834
several types of plants
>>339208795
Humans are programmed to act human.
Our brains are not fucking magic.
>>339207229
add this for extra impact
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtE1BUHLSeA
>>339208772
synths are distinguishable from humans
>>339208881
>plants can learn and form/express abstract thoughts
Just stop
>>339208980
In the area of being able to form abtract thoughts they are not.
>b-but they can be programmed to do specific things on specific triggers
So can humans, no different from basic instincts.
>>339209063
>plants can learn
Yes, several types of plants have long term memory and react differently to stimuli depending on what they've experienced
>thoughts
No, they don't have brains. And as "thought" is related to the mind and the mind only applies to what is conscious it doesn't apply to synths either
>>339208587
Then I guess you can say the same about literally anything.
I don't know if gravity is a thing. I don't know if my dog is actually on my lap or I'm REALLY imagining it. I don't know if I'm typing this or fucking my wife right now, but being really deluded in thinking I am. There's things you assume as thruth based on the fact there's much evidence pointing to it being thruth. If more evidence that proves it contrary to what is established comes foward, than we update or line of thought. Going about doubting everything like this is very, very stupid.
Case in point, this soliphism bullshit. You can go about life believing that everyone is actually an emotional/racional zombie, but you'd be hard pressed to make a case about how that's just not simple paranoia, given that there's no evidence or reasoning to you being right.
>>339209282
Synths are not able to form abstract thoughts. Only the illusion of it
>>339209386
Define "mind".
As I said, your brain is not fucking magic. It works on the same principle as computers, it processes information. The only difference being materials they are made from and how advanced they are.
>>339209616
>Only the illusion of it
just fucking kill me
>>339209629
the mind is something that reasons and experiences things subjectively
>>339209616
And how exactly do you know that? How do you spot a difference between abstract thinking and illusion of it?
Because for all I know, you can be an illusion as well.
>>339209824
And how to you check what fits that defintion and what doesn't?
Because synths act exactly like what you described.
>>339208881
I had not heard of that before, so I went and read about it on several sites and what I gathered from that is basically this:
>how does this work, scientist?
>I don't have a fucking clue, but problably chemistry
Thought you're right, I wouldn't call that sentience, it's certainly a very, very rudimentary system that's not been studied much, from what I've read. Interesting stuff though.
>>339198667
>The Institute was messed up though
Sure, if you believe what a bunch of dirt farmers think.
The only people replaced by the institute are smart individuals that are going to help the future of mankind. And the only reason they where doing it so sneakily is because The Institute was suppose to be a secret. Now that The Wanderer is in charge and depending on the message you read to commonwealth it can be argued the stealing of people is going to stop and The Institute is taking more of a leadership role.
Example, in my main game i have synths in all the major towns saying things like "We are here so you know The Institute exists"/"We are here to help on behalf of The Institute"
>>339209831
>How do you spot a difference between abstract thinking and illusion of it?
I simply know that the thing is a programmed machine and not a conscious human. It's very simple logic
>>339209967
>Because synths act exactly like what you described.
No, synths do not experience things subjectively
>>339209616
Please stop replying.
>>339210103
And you're smart in not thinking the plant is sentient. Believing a plant reacting to chemicals to be sentient is a ridiculous idea in the same way a machine reacting to programming would be
>>339210105
What about the guy roaming around the outskirts of the city? He was dressed in typical settler clothing and I think he had a pipe weapon. What importance was he?
>>339197823
>"We must recover tech from those who would misuse it."
>Uses massive resources to build a zeppelin flagship only for show
>Takes over institute through frontline invasion, then destroys all the valuable tech in a nuclear explosion
>Builds a giant mech to lob nukes because conventional weapons are too weak sauce for them.
These assholes take over the institute, they fucking win. THEN, they blow it up, throwing all the useful tech like hydroponics and radiation cures into a worthless fire.
>>339210148
>I simply know
Not an argument. You don't know shit and are, in fact programmed, i.e instincts.
>syths don't experience things subjectively
Any proof on that? Do you even know that the whole concept of subjectivity is subjective in itself?
>>339210336
Humans are literally machines.
Your brain is literally programmed.
>>339209616
>Only the illusion of it
That is arguably how the human minds works, merely a construct of previous experiences working together to create you're own personal reality.
The crazy person eating shit from a toilet is only doing what he perceives as normal, same as a robot who has the implanted memories of a person, same as you with you're memories of the past.
>>339209768
Peace be with you Tesla
>>339198667
The Institute is a retarded mess of retarded genius scientists. But the BoS nuking everything, not even trying to salvage it by killing all the scientists or some shit, is just retarded. The technology there is so advanced it doesn't even fit the Fallout universe. The BoS would have put major effort into salvaging it. Imagine how good teleportation would be for the cunts in the Brotherhood, or anyone for that matter.
>>339210535
>build mech
That was the old administrations work. They're just maintaining it.
>zeppelin for show
As a base and take-off refueling platform it was fine and a little bit of show doesn't hurt when you're dealing with people who want to rekt your shit if you look weak.
Still, the zeppelin, even the first one they came across in Elder Lyon's day, always seemed somewhat silly in how easy it looks to destroy. Missiles aren't the rarest commodity.
![1410246155175[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Ere2lzi.jpg "1410246155175[1].jpg")
>>339210678
why do all analogies need to be somehow related to eating in this fucking board?! even when it involves shit...
>>339211961
Because eating is a basic fucking thing and as such it both quickly comes to mind and is easy to understand by everyone.
This is not rocket science.
The two DLC have proven why the BoS is right. You leave robobrains to their own will and they fuck things up. And look at all the shit Dima did in far harbor.
Only thing that was a bit too far for me was clearing out the railroad. You kill off the institute then they have fuckall to do quickly.
>>339198305
This was my problem too. You could easily clear out all the synth stuff and have a use for the bio science wing along with a base that can only be reached with teleportation or a giant robot pissing right onto the roof.
>>339198809
There was a thick layer of communism covering the institute that only Liberty Prime could penetrate.
>>339207229
>>339208927
Goofy's scream would be better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUL5w91dzbo
>>339212757
It really doesn't. Humans have still done worse than any AI. Automotron is about ensuring that you give specific and careful orders to AIs without the personalities developed to think "she probably didn't mean kill everyone".
DiMA's actions saved lives. Yes, he's got blood and the potential for wiping out two communities on his hands, but the fog wards saved the harbormen and he put an extra layer of security on the nukes.
Did they dindu nuffin? Clearly not, but it's not a condemnation of synths and robobrains.
>>339207552
Becuase it's not old world, it's new and perverse technology taken to an extreme the brotherhood would never tolerate.
This is the exact same reason they destroyed the Master and his FEV. And were hesitant about the GECK.
It's also why they didn't like House that much.
>>339213672
>yfw house was right about them
>>339213910
>implying our boy House was ever wrong
