>mfw programmer (C++, Python, Java)
>mfw reading discussion about 'artistic merit' of video GAMES
Ok
K
quality thread
>mfw my dicks in ya mums ass
Surprise surprise, a generation of slackers and shut-ins try to justify their addiction to a non-productive hobby as "an art"
Same shit as music, television, film. A form of entertainment that people simply can't enjoy unless it's "legitimized".
>>338484893
do you like python? I thought about taking some classes for it, but not for being a game programmer.
>codemonkey
>knowing anything of "artistic merit"
sounds like you are bitter than no one will ever actually appreciate your anal retentive profession
>>338484893
>be autistic code monkey
>have no clue about art
Who would have thunk it.
Now slave off in your cubicle, monkey.
I'm sure you have interesting and original point, keep going...?
>>338485145
>>338485160
>Someone knows how to code
>Gets shit on
What the hell happened, /v/?
>>338485160
/thread
>>338485053
but music and film are art
>>338485253
Anyone identifying as only as 'programmer' should be shat on.
They're pretty much just human-to-machine translators.
>>338485085
Great starting point to understand more complex stuff
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_paradigm
http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld/
>>338485381
I'd thought that someone confusing programmer with compiler would be trolling but I know better
>>338485253
The same thing that always happens when someone gives his uneducated opinion in a field he obviously has no experience in.
>>338484893
>Respecting programmers
>Respecting Indians
POO IN LOO
>>338484893
2bh (two be honest), Visual IDE coding environments are the future. No one's going to hard code in the future.
>>338485629
>No one's going to hard code in the future
By the time this is true, you'll be retired anyway. Not learning something because it might be obsolete some time in the future is a pretty shit attitude.
>>338485629
Can you explain in layman's terms how would this overcome the problem of nuance required for good coding? It seems like broad swipe suitable for simpler tasks, not overall accessibility.
It seems nonsensical to be able to streamline AND keep all the features.
>>338484893
Learn Lisp, you faggot.
>>338485474
But he is right. Artistic merit is blown out of proportions while the geniouses behind the code that makes the game are the unsong heroes. Well, kinda with todays unfinished buggy messes. But the shortcuts and the memory management tricks behind in, for example Pokemon, is astonishing.
>>338485381
So, people can't say "I'm a doctor/police officer/teacher/scientist"? The fuck are you on about?
>>338485990
>muh 30 year old youtube lectures
>>338485321
And so are video games.
Surprise surprise, a generation of slackers and shut-ins try to justify their anti-intellectualism and aversion to criticism by saying "it's just a GAME"
>>338485851
His future relies on some seriously impressive leaps in automated translation between human desires and code. There will still be a need for humans to learn a specific way of interfacing with a machine to acquire optimal results, at least for the foreseeable future. Even if we're not using it the majority of the time, knowing how to program via the traditional language will be important in a wide variety of applications, at least for the sake of optimization and whatever fiddly bits can't be adequately expressed via whatever visual interface is being used.
>>338486017
Video games are the combined effort of paintings, music and software. Programmers are just worker bees, not artists.
>>338486384
yeah, sounded like a mesh between futurology and advanced AI crapola
>>338484893
code is math
art is the direct opposite of math
>>338486385
>aaaaaaaaaaah the character is not interacting with the environment!
>help me artist! paint another cloud so it bumps into this one!
>>338486742
true
GAMES are designed around math principles though
shhhh
>>338486241
Video games aren't art just like board and card games aren't art you manchild
>>338486818
>GAMES are designed around math principles though
No. Math principles are there for the design to function. Games are designed around human psychology first.
>>338486818
Games have their roots in performative arts. Game theorists tried to mathematicise the concept but they had to limit their scope in order to do so. The "game theory" branch of mathematics therefore does not cover everything that is properly called a game.
>>338486818
That's not true. Without artists coming up with scenarios, environments and music, there would be no game to code. Hell, the game designer is even more of an artist than the programmer. The latter is just a soulless worker in the same way that somebody puts together a car in the factory piece by piece. If we found a way to replace programmer via AI, they'd be entirely useless. Human creativity can't be outsourced, however.
>>338486979
let's hear your favourite games then and see if they're designed around "human psychology"
(skinner box is also a STEM principle)
>>338487007
>go and chess has roots in performative arts
>mfw house painter
>mfw reading discussion about the artistic merit of PAINTings
>mfw geologist
>mfw reading discussion about the artistic merit of ROCK sculptures
>mfw physicist (energy, sound waves)
>mfw reading discussion about the artistic merit of music (SOUND WAVES)
>mfw lumber mill worker
>mfw reading discussion about the artistic merit of WOOD sculpture
>>338487107
im noticing a vicious thread of ignorance and i don't think it's trolling
>>338486892
>paintings are art
>music is art
>performance is art
>something featuring all of those somehow is not
Great logic, champ.
>>338484893
That fucking guy in the background ahaha
>>338487204
You're mad because you flunked out of logic? Can you not see that WOOD sculptor knows how to WORK in WOOD FIRST and FOREMOST?
>>338486892
>manchild
No, that would be you, you desperate anti-intellectual prescriptivist. I bet it just tickles your bum that games (including video games) are subject of serious academic study.
>Nooo, don't associate my toys with boring museum stuff!
t. the opposite of a manchild, apparently.
>>338487343
A programmer is an expert in code, not in games.
>>338487131
>let's hear your favourite games then and see if they're designed around "human psychology"
RPGs ;^)
And no, "roll-playing" is not the point of those.
>go and chess has roots in performative arts
Are those the first games known to mankind?
>>338487381
can you link this serious academic study in video games?
because even in narratology they are just a sideshow that has been written about way back in the 1970s.
>>338487482
code deals with interaction, the defining feature of video games. programmer is the most important person in video game design. that's why there are no idea guys among great developers.
>>338487529
so you have no answer or are seriously daft or both.
i'll ask you again: your favourite games, so we can see how they exactly avoid being designed around strict mathematical principles?
>>338487381
The academic study of games as art is nonexistent. Feel free to prove me wrong with actual sources if you can.
>>338487131
>skinner box is also a STEM principle
Which is completely irrelevant, isn't it? A game, traditional or virtual is there to stimulate dopamine release in the human brain. The manner in which it achieves it (directly or indirectly math related) only comes later.
>>338484893
>programmers think they're actually important
kek. They're just there to type in numbers. The real important people behind vidya are the artists, producers, etc. Programmers are worthless.
>>338487620
Code is merely the canvas, not the paint. The canvas would be empty if not for the artists telling programmers what to code.
>that's why there are no idea guys among great developers
Kojima, Spector and Yamaoka can't program.
>>338487539
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_studies
Pick something from the references, I'd say.
>>338487697
>so you have no answer or are seriously daft or both.
Role-playing GAMES aren't games?
>>338487697
Not him but did you even read his post?
Also
>mathematical principles
>cannot have artistic merit
There's only one seriously daft idiot here and thats you.
>>338487756
he can't, as i've said best he can hope for is to link avatars of story. video games are inadvertently thought in software design, they have no place and are too simplistic in their other features to be a subject of serious study.
>>338487785
you're too dumb for me to continue the conversation. this is also why STEM is a meritocracy. you can't say stupid shit and stay afloat.
>>338487846
kojima most definitely can program, only yamaoka i know is the SH composer and music theory is also based around logic, spector i'm too lazy to google.
>>338487854
that's your argument? wikipedia link about diploma mill?
>>338484893
>programmer
> Python
> Java
>>338487943
please go to /tg/ and ask them what fluff is.
>>338487945
strawman
i said games are designed around mathematical principles
you can't design a game around artistic merit
>the Smithsonian, one of the most renowned art museums in the world, exhibits video games
>some nerd thinks otherwise
This is not even a discussion anymore. You are objectively wrong.
>>338487756
I've actually taken some university courses on game studies.
This is probably where you're going to mock me for doing a joke course in a subject only dweebs care about, but there you go.
>C++, Python, Java
It's 2016 goddamit these languages are obsolete. It's the web developer era.
PHP, Ruby, HTML, CSS, Javascript master race here.
>>338487997
>wikipedia link about diploma mill?
If there are diplomas for it then surely it must be a recognised academic field?
>this is also why STEM is a meritocracy. you can't say stupid shit and stay afloat.
You're doing all right, though.
>art
yes
>artistic merit
no
>>338488127
You're obsolete too.
It's the app developer era.
>>338488215
I actually agree with this.
>>338488065
>please go to /tg/ and ask them what fluff is.
Background, not to be confused with the actual act of roleplaying, which, in a tabletop setting, is like cooperative storytelling/improvisational theatre, with OPTIONAL number crunching.
>>338487997
>all games are designed around math principles
>3 posts later still can't provide a coherent argument or explanation
Here, I'll list some games, explain to me how they're designed around mathematical principles:
>STALKER
>L4D
>Spelunky
>>338488065
Code is the material. It's the canvas and the paint. It's the marble.
>>338488324
He's probably going to say you've activated his trap card because all video games are 1s and 0s when you get down to it.
>mfw bricklayer (red bricks, brown bricks, breezeblocks)
>mfw reading discussion about the merits of architecture
WHY DOES NOBODY TAKE MY INPUT SERIOUSLY
>>338488324
find quaternion
most game use that principle to locate where the hell the player is in a matrix format.
most standard FPS have this code
Why is everyone assuming that Art and Math have to be polar opposites? The two can work together. There are tons of art pieces designed around Math principles.
>>338488096
>The Smithsonian
>Relevant
You can't make this shit up. The Smithsonian museums are garbage m8.
>>338488662
just because the game engine uses math doesn't mean the game design is math
>>338488450
>paintings are based on colored dye principles
>>338488728
>Mathfags trying to legitimise their useless hobby by calling it art
Typical.
>>338488805
>I-it doesn't c-c-count!
Pathetic.
>>338488450
However, video games aren't defined by art, but by interactivity.
I can't believe this thread is belittling programmers. I guess being able to make correct comparison is a logical skill.
http://www.strawpoll.me/10280140
>>338488662
>He thinks that code written to make a design function IS game design
Are you serious right now?
>>338488829
but if I want to design a 6DOF game I still need to design my own mathematic formula of how the player actually works
do you really thinks this kinda code comes for free ???
>>338488984
>However, video games aren't defined by art, but by interactivity.
And paintings aren't defined by art, they're defined by painting things.
How am I belittling programmers? You are belittling their works.
>I guess being able to make correct comparison is a logical skill.
Yeah. I guess.
>>338488127
>It's 2016
>names a handful of languages that predate what was originally listed
>>338489037
>what is AI
>what are routines
>how does interactivity work
>what makes video game different from a movie or painting
>>338486892
Actually you faggot even MOMA considers games as art. If games aren't art TV definitely isn't. The highest selling movies can barely be considered as art
>>338484893
>programmer
Autism the profession
>>338489041
game systems like movement in a 3D space use math but high-level game design is mostly an artistic field, games are an equal combination of logic and art
>>338488984
That's what happen when you let kids play walking simulator
they thing they could create a game by just making basic code of moving the camera
>>338489175
paintings are not interactive
video games are
do i need to continue and explain to you how this completely changes the role of a "craftsman" and how this is the reason most artfags can't make a good NES clone game
>>338488728
Saying you can use math to create art doesn't mean a damn thing. A slab of marble can be used to create art but the slab itself is neither art nor the polar opposite of art.
Art is novelty, it's nice but ultimately irrelevant. It's purely a human mental construct. Technically art does not even exist.
>>338489041
What the fuck are you even talking about right now? How is your entitlement to payment in any way related to weather or not games are designed around mathematical principles? Do you think only game designers get paid?
>>338488987
Tough question, actually. Why should one be more important? Isn't that like asking, who is more important, the actors or the director? Maybe the camera crew? Set builders? They all contribute to the end product.
>>338489279
>do i need to continue and explain to you how this completely changes the role of a "craftsman"
Oh yes, please do, because it's bound to be arbitrary bullshit.
>>338485381
OK then. Let's see how the world copes if we so called "human to machine translators" stop working.
>>338489201
>this delusion
>>338489307
sculptor (the person): takes chisel, molds marble
vs
sculptor (the video game character) is PROGRAMMED to take chisel which is PROGRAMMED to chisel marble which has its own PROGRAMMED properties etc etc
that's video game design. that's the core principle of it, the interactivity.
>mfw
>Programmer
>Modeller
>Musician
>Artist
Hawlee shit buddy, go learn new crap
>>338489339
Hell no. What I was trying to say is that as a game creator he must understand all aspect of the game
from both the design standpoint and the engineering standpoint
if he fails in one of them its already a failure
Programming is of little importance to a video game, said the artfag while punching his keyboard buttons, translating commands into inputs and waiting for his next Dota 2 match to start.
>all these people shitting on programmets
>forgetting that Daikatana happened
LOL designfags and ideafags need programmers to do their shit right. Likewise, programmers need designers to make a decent game.
>>338489339
You just can't follow his superior STEM logic, I guess.
>>338485253
I think the main point is he is arguing that being a mathematician would qualify someone to judge art even though that's clearly not the case.
"I know code, so my opinion on an unrelated topic matters" is pretty much what he's saying.
>>338489743
>Commands into inputs
>Not inputs into commands
Go home and work on your game some more, Wu
>>338489820
anyone can judge art
anyone can make art
not anyone can program
and therefore not anyone can make a video game
>>338484893
mfw i will never lick emma's calves after a hot and sweaty workout
>>338489919
But RPG Maker tho, Undertale
>inb4 implying undertale is a game
I haven't played it, I'm just saying that the entirety of that game was made in RPG Maker.
>>338489609
I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the comparison being made if you think we're talking about programming virtual sculptors.
How is your example interactive, anyway?
>>338489191
Believe it or not but you can design a complete videogame without a single line of code - the only difficult thing would be determining the correct timing of everything.
AI state machine is not fucking game design you daft fuck, it's a way to make the game design function. Saying that all games are designed around math principles is like saying that all cars are designed around steel just because they have steel in their frames.
>>338489743
>artfag
>Dota 2
>>338485085
Python is good for VN's, Indie shit and scripting, not much else.
>that glorious feeling when you can both code and art
all I need now is some self motivation
>>338490142
really man
>>338489609
You completely missed the point I was making.
Art does not exist anywhere but in the mind of a human. It's purely a creation of the human consciousness and it never leaves that consciousness. The materials are irrelevant, the tools are irrelevant, it is not a thing that exists, all that matters is the mind.
This is why arguments about what is art and what isn't art is fucking moronic. They remind me of arguments about consciousness. You can't really define it, it's not a tangible thing, and the only reason we think it exists is because we experience it. If something exists purely in subjective form nobody can dictate to anyone else a damn thing about it and anyone who tries is just a snob.
>>338489919
You don't even need to know how to code to make a game. There are a ton of programs setup to help any idiot with some ideas make a game.
Saying that not anyone can program is irrelevant. That's like some one saying "I can do 50 pull ups, so my opinion on video games matters more".
>>338489567
Cringe
Fuck off NERD
>>338490213
post some of your artwork and /v/ will tell you they're shit
>>338490032
It was Game Maker, you idiot. Completely different.
>>338490032
thats why its shit
>>338490241
well there are games and there are games
>>338490321
How is it different?
>mfw paint mixer
>mfw reading discussion about 'artistic merit' of drawings
>>338490234
nigger cartesian dualism has been passe since leibniz
>Tried programming
>Kinda understand it but mostly hate it
>Realize I'm more of an art guy
>>338488127
>PHP, Ruby, Javascript
>>338490349
GameMaker is code based with Drag and drop as a shitty alternative. RPG maker doesn't support code, at all, I believe.
I have a compulsory C++ module in my third year of uni and I don't know shit about programming
How fucked I am?
>>338490349
>how are sculpture and fingerprinting different?
Programming is science and math, understanding concepts and how they interact. How to take inputs and translate them to desired outputs.
GOOD programming is as much art as it is science. Taking limited resources and making the most of them with every clever trick you can think of is not something any code monkey can do. Look at things like the early Wolfenstein and Doom engines, occlusion based rendering on the Dreamcast, or even those silly train head people from Fallout.
>>338484893
Who else looked first here?
>>338490480
Do they expect any level of previous proficiency?
>>338490391
does the painter rely on you to be able to move the brush around canvas?
do you create the whole composition beforehand, a composition that is also interactive and then ask the painter to - again, by using rules you set - daub some color over it?
>>338490291
No!
>>338490493
Nice analogy, but it explains fuck all to someone who doesn't know about either sculpting or fingerprinting.
>>338490473
Thanks.
>>338490480
It'll probably be a basic introduction.
The only thing you need to worry about are pointers, but more specifically pointer arrays withing pointer arrays but really it's pretty simple.
>>338490480
It all depends whether you're dumb or not really, it's not something you can influence. Hope you're not among jaded artfags in this thread.
>>338490480
Eh, I don't think it will get past "write a sine calculating procedure". You are probably fine.
>>338487802
>He thinks programming is typing in numbers
Where were you when you realized you are retarded?
>>338490605
>does the painter rely on you to be able to move the brush around canvas?
Technically, no.
Practically, he can move that brush around all day, that picture isn't going to get painted anytime soon without paint.
>do you create the whole composition beforehand, a composition that is also interactive and then ask the painter to - again, by using rules you set - daub some color over it?
Yeah, I think you vastly overestimate your job.
>>338486742
Music is based on math.
>>338490786
Everything is, because math is used to describe reality.
>>338490739
again
paintings are not interactive
the only interactive part about them is the act of painting
even by that standard painter is most similar to programmer
>>338486742
>art is the direct opposite of math
The entirety of /ic/ is laughing at you right now.
>>338490786
>implying good music isn't just what sounds right to your ears
>implying people don't have different tastes
>implying math wasn't applied to music afterwards by some insecure musicfag to justify his seemingly unproductive hobby that contributes nothing to our species' survival
>Engine programmer = God Tier
>Game programmer = Monkey TIer
tbqhfam
>>338490480
Why C++? That's not where most people start learning to program.
C++ has a lot of idiosyncracies, and it can be a little confusing, especially since you can use a lot of stuff from C, which is usually more efficient but also more error prone if you don't know what you're doing.
>>338490831
social sciences are not based around logic or math or reasoning
just look in this thread, liberal arts in full motion
>>338490927
This basically.
>>338490640
>who doesn't know about either sculpting or fingerpainting
What are you, an idiot? Sculpting is hard and can produce beautiful art. Fingerpainting is easy and produces shit.
>>338490721
Well in the context of this thread he is correct. Programmers have about 0 influence on AAA game development.
They are there to follow instructions. The only programmers who have a say are those that hold positions above "programmer".
It's true that artists also follow instructions, but at the end of the day, since art is not an exact science, you can't have complete control over what they draw, only set some general guidelines they should follow.
>>338490480
You'll probably be fine. As long as you think about the things correctly, an introductory course should be a breeze.
>>338490473
Except it does, before MV you'd code in Ruby but now you code in JavaScript
RPGMaker makes you code in real world language while GameMaker makes you code in a made-up language that you'll never use in real life
>>338490875
So what?
The point remains the same. The programmers, much like the workers behind the painter, provide the tools to create it. The paint, canvas and brush.
Without the artists you'd have a nice engine (canvas), a great editor (brush), and no game.
You provide the means, but others turn it into art.
>tfw a programmer
>taking a course on VR programming for shits and giggles.
A mate and I were discussing VR, and he thought it was going to just be another fad. I sincerely hope not.
>>338490407
That's not what I'm arguing.
What I'm saying is that the interpretation by a human is what distinguishes art from, for example, just a pile of rocks.
Saying "That thing cannot be art because it was not constructed using the approved materials" is utterly retarded. If someone sees art then they see art and nobody else can tell them they are wrong in doing so, all you can say is "I don't see it."
>>338490605
Dude, if anything you're the painter, following the instructions of the person who set out the composition.
>>338490958
Sure they are. There's just so many layers of abstraction it's pretty useless in practice. But ultimately, even social sciences are based on math.
>>338485381
>Anyone identifying as only as 'programmer' should be shat on.
Nowadays, this is the equivalent of laughing at nerds for being literate.
>>338490271
>xd
>>338491060
How many people that use RPGMaker use the coding portion of it?
>>338491112
the point is that you're comparing static art to an interactive medium because you're too dumb to realize how your comparison falls flat
i was just being kind now fuck off and go PLAY a video game like you would a painting
>>338491280
So we're back to the old "art can't be interactive" stupidity?
Yeah, go away.
>>338490927
/thread
>>338490074
proof of this is that toby fox doesn't know how to codei know i'm gonna get shit for talking about undertale
>>338491172
>A mate and I were discussing VR, and he thought it was going to just be another fad.
How many wearable gadgets have, to date, succeeded?
>>338491183
i'd refrain for using the art term too broadly though the definition i adhere by is the one that art is something eliciting emotional response, or rather - an inspiration. however most people are unable to perceive nuances needed to truly experience art and therefore plebeians do exist, and what's worse they usually sound like me right now.
>>338490915
I agree with you to an extent but western influence on music through mathematics was crucial. At some point everybody has to be in tune and intervals come into play. An instrument like piano could of never of existed if it wasn't for math
>>338484893
You are literally a monkey instructions into a machine.
>>338491191
no, the gamer is the painter in that regard, programmer is the designer.
>>338491337
it can, that's why no one in academia cares about video games ever since narratology covered the interactive narrative.
>>338491029
a=20 b=20 right?
>>338490958
Get off your high horse, faget. I think part of the reason your arguments are so consistently poor is that you're so convinced of the inherent logicality of anything that rolls out of your STEM-mouth regardless of how much logical thought you actually put into it.
>>338491029
Is this a joke?
>>338491248
The ones that don't want their game looking and playing like every other one made in it
>>338491553
lol
>>338490958
Social sciences, like all sciences are based on the scientific method, which is the distinctive trait of a scientific field.
Science has nothing to do with mathematics or reasoning, those are used as tools to support the method, but not conducted for their own sake, like in mathematics and philosophy.
>>338485053
Art is inherently nonproductive in a practical, concrete sense. Your criticism is invalid.
>>338490958
>social sciences
>>338490875
>Art can't be interactive because I say so
Not that anon, but you come off as a genuinely dumb and jaded drone who's really mad about something.
>>338491443
>however most people are unable to perceive nuances needed to truly experience art
This is just pure snobbery.
There is no justification for arguing your taste in art is any more refined than the "plebeians". There is no measurement for taste in art, there is just your taste.
I think there's been more than enough hoaxes and frauds in the art world to prove none of the "experts" have any more expertise than joe nobody in evaluating the worth of art.
>>338491528
The player is the audience, engaging with the work. The designer is the one who laid out the composition and decided where everything was supposed to go.
The programmer is the painter, who uses his technical skill to realise the designer's artistic vision and bridge the gap between him and the audience.
>>338491803
P A I N T I N G S
>>338491830
no but that way we avoid giving san fran hipsters and their ludonarrative dissonance and other pseudo patrician crapola legitimacy
>>338490579
>ywn gently kiss her feet after a long night out making her giggle because it tickles
>>338491481
Nah, I disagree. Modern instruments are just an extension of their older ancestors, and while math was applied to them to make it seem like there's reason and logic behind why and how they sound good, it's really just an evolution of musical tastes over time. I mean, look at Gregorian chants. They were the earliest *written* western music and they have seemingly no rhyme or reason when it comes to how they sound good (mathematically, I mean). Over time, music just started reacting to events going on in the church (for example, music was deemed to be a creative outlet for people to enjoy, not just another means of praising god), and we moved on to more secular music.
>>338490958
>social sciences
I agree that a huge number of the college students majoring in social sciences aren't good with math or science, and probably think they can avoid them.
All articles in peer-reviewed social science journals that make a claim about an effect need to show its likelihood using statistical models. Model selection and refinement is something people are still better at than any programmed algorithm. Although machine learning is getting better and better every day.
Cocи хyй, быдлo.
>>338491832
>The player is the audience
no, the player plays part in narrative, audience doesn't have a choice in traditional arts. that's another aspect of programming, taking into account player's variables and thinking.
>>338492035
And surely there cannot be any mixture between actor and audience. The audience can never take part in art, and occupy more than its "audience" role.
>>338491832
designer is the programmer, what you described is abstract thinking, the core requirement for programming skills.
>>338491609
It was a question given to people in a continuing education course on programming before the first lecture. While immediately obvious to anyone who's even looked at code, remember that the equivalency symbol is not an "action" in regular math. It's a reflective comparison.
>>338487997
The respectable quarters of the humanities are too you know.
Historians for instance, we regard ourselves as CRITICAL people. It's a huge thing for us. We are actually sort of bastards about it, really.
We have a duty, a responsibility to be That Guy, in terms of discourse and what have you. You are encouraged to take swings at Martin Luther King Jr., hell, at anyone. For instance, if you want to be the devil's advocate, well, King WAS encouraging people to break the law. Depending on how you frame it who exactly was being radical between him and Malcom X is interesting, at least based on the given speech. The Ballot or The Bullet does not differ in many regards from things said by white dudes since forever, and now, too. YOU WON'T TAKE MY GUN OR MY LIBERTY IF A POLICE MAN OR A POLICE DOG ATTACKS ME, WELL, I HAVE TO DEFEND MYSELF.
And it sounds different coming from a "scary blackman" than it does from some white guy. It's fineee with Joe Q Public (probably white, and middle or working class) when the white guy does it, because he's white too.
When the black guy does it it's scary.
>this threadF
>>338491029
>>338491609
>>338491553
Original paper:
https://web.archive.org/web/20081225125506/http://www.cs.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/paper1.pdf
>>338492124
there can, that's an 100 year old theatre premise
>>338492035
>the player plays part in narrative
I would argue that this is just an extreme form of interpretation. All art is interactive in a sense. Does a painting have a narrative? Or is the narrative created by the audience's interpretation of the image?
>>338484893
>C++, Python, Java
Read your goddamn SICP.
>>338491415
You've got a point, unfortunately.
Still, it beats the heck out of 'augmented reality' gadgets, like the hololens.
>>338492213
any historian taking himself seriously is not someone i would read.
>>338492334
you're confusing the process of analyzing the work of art with true interaction.
as for your final question, post structuralism has been dead ever since the sokal affair so yes, what audience thinks about the image doesn't mean shit.
>>338492135
Programming also requires hands, just like painting, so I guess it's closer to painting after all.
That's not how the analogy works. You're not the designer. You're the craftsman carrying out the designer's vision.
>>338492480
again
there are no idea guys among video game designers
>>338492353
I just wish it didn't run against the basic concept that people want less hardware, not more.
A glass-like approach could eventually be successful, once your phone, and all its capabilities, can be incorporated into the glass, and you only need once device again.
To date, I'm convinced that the major source of success of the iphone was having a phone ipod. One device less.
>>338492334
Stimuli from art -> ideas of audience member
Interaction changes the stimulus, interpretation changes the ideas.
ITT: Lots of people pretending they know what developers do.
>>338492262
I skimmed this, and while I might be biased due to my previous programming experience, isn't all this shit completely obvious if you actually bother paying attention in class?
>>338492447
>you're confusing the process of analyzing the work of art with true interaction.
There's no confusion here. I explicitly made the connection and explained why.
>post structuralism has been dead ever since the sokal affair
News to me.
>>338492447
>sokal affair
A Physicist complaining about rigor, oh the irony.
>>338492620
Most painters also did their own compositions, I reckon. It's just to distinguish the design process, which is abstract, from the actual programming, which is concrete.
>>338492714
>Interaction changes the stimulus
I don't think that's a proper definition. Interpretation can be defined as interaction because it arises from the interplay between work and audience.
>>338492929
programming is skill revolving around interaction
interaction defines video games the same way the paint defines paintings.
it's not that hard if you're not a jaded artfag.
>>338491394
Undertale was done entirely in code.
>>338485253
Coding isn't even hard. Your job is going to be replaced by Indians for 10 rupees an hour.
It's a job that pays high entry, but has no upward mobility because there is no decision making or critical thought. Just type-type-type.
Coding is for the eternal manchild.
>>338493437
which upward mobility job are you aiming for?
>>338485253
>>Someone knows how to code
>thinks he's special and deservers praise
>literally for doing the easiest shit
>>338493437
I am watching suits who think like you dig their own grave as they are forced to hire Support and Maintenance departments to fix the code the chutneyfuckers couldn't implement correctly.
Who gives a shit if games are art or not?
From my perspective, the only people who give a shit are those people who are desperate to defend their hobby because they're ashamed of it, like game journalists for example.
>I-I'm not playing games! I'm experiencing art!
Do you do the same for Monopoly too? Or Poker? Snakes & Ladders?
If you're that ashamed of your hobby, just quit it entirely. How does it affect you if games are art or not, when the main purpose of them is entertainment? Do you suddenly get less entertainment out of video games because you can't pretend they're deep?
Even if games are art, people still won't respect you because of it. No one cares how deep you think the story in Shadow of the Collussus is.
>>338493437
Coding isn't hard, coding well is very hard.
There is a little upward mobility. If you are very good you have a shot at a lead or senior position, that will double your paycheck, after that though... Well, coding is skilled labor and skilled labor never really pays that well for anyone but doctors.
You want easy money? Should have gone into management.
>>338490881
And the people with actual artistic merit and carreers in design/illustration laugh at /ic/.
>>338493174
>programming is skill revolving around interaction
Could you clarify this statement? Because it looks like you're equivocating the code interacting with itself with the player interacting with the game.
>>338485629
People have been saying this since early 90's and even today the basic monkey-level coding has to be outsourced to real "people" in India.
>>338493902
>I-I'm not playing games! I'm experiencing art!
That's a contradiction coming from someone who believes games are art.
>>338494018
programmer anticipates and designs inputs.
>>338493437
>work at a sort of big software company
>outsourcing tedious tasks to indian codemonkeys
>most code they return is badly implemented and horribly optimized
>>338493998
sadly what this guy says it's true, I share floor with managers and sales people, it's kinda unfair of how well paid those jackasses are
>>338494001
Those people also know how aesthetics is based partly on math.
>>338494082
this superiority complex already took a mortal bite out of american IT industry
>>338494117
throw in a "simply" between "not" and "playing".
>>338494123
But that's the "how" of things, not the "what". The actual game part is entirely abstract. Code is just how you realise it.
>>338494134
Then just get one team of senior coders to look over what the codemonkeys did and fix their mistakes.
Should still be cheaper than hiring coders.
>>338494428
programming involves abstract thinking and the player's freedom is largely fictional.
>>338494487
So essentially "pay for the same job twice".
Have fun losing money.
>>338494580
You don't get it.
The designer decides on the freedom of the player.
The code monkey hammers it into the computer until it works as intended.
>>338484893
>Those legs
What the fuck is going on? This is some Escher shit.
>>338494667
Paying a first world salary to ten people and a third world salary to 90 is still cheaper than paying a first world salary to a hundred people.
>>338494580
>programming involves abstract thinking
Be that as it may, we're still talking about two fundamentally different processes here.
>the player's freedom is largely fictional
So?
How difficult is C++ to learn compared to say PHP?
>>338493256
Then who made all those horrible design decisions?
>>338494943
google how c++ programmers look and how PHP coders look
>>338484893
those feet definitely have artistic merit though
>>338494943
It's both harder to learn C++, because it's more complicated, and easier, because PHP is a clusterfuck.
>>338494428
>>338494937
you need to stop thinking that idea guys matter. any good product is defined by its execution.
i could 'design' you a masterpiece of a game right now that way.
>>338494840
If 10 people already can do the job of the 90 people, then there was never a reason to hire the 90 in the first place.
You yourself said that you just get a team that basically does the same job again.
The money you spent on the 90 people goes down the drain, because their output has to be redone anyway.
>>338494943
PHP is a clusterfuck.
Mainly because it's an interpreted language rather than compiled.
Start with C++ then choose what you want to do.
>>338495296
You don't get it. There is a distinction between the rules of the game as such and the underlying code putting it into practice.
I forgot why this even mattered. Some stupid point about interactivity, I think.
Anyway, games are art.
>>338492756
Quiz was given before the first lecture. The goal wasn't to answer correctly, but to answer consistently. If a person used incorrect logic to figure out a question, it was fine as long as they applied that logic to the other questions.
Only 44% did.
>>338494840
A lot of times, the way to "fix" bad code is to delete it and start over. That's nothing but wasted time and resources.
>>338491028
This
Big name artists exist
Not programmers, John Carmack being the ONE exception.
>>338495658
code makes the rules and by them defines the interaction.
>>338496209
Iwata
>>338491028
>>338496209
name five great designers that aren't programmers
let's hear them.
>>338496269
Pigment makes the paint and so defines what colours you get to see.
The crucial distinction here is that code MAKES the rules. The rules are something on top of the code. Yes, code can be defined as a set of rules in itself, but it is one underlying the superficial structure that the audience actually interacts with.
>>338496451
How about you name 5 great designers that actually code their games?
>>338496451
>name five great designers
Artists != Designers
I know a bunch of devs but i have no idea what they actually and i don't fucking keep track of that, that's celeb-tier bullshit. It's obvious artists are more important. No one cares how well done code is as long as it works.
And Miyamoto started as a Concept Artist. Fucking hell Mario is what it is now because of his art.
>>338485253
Becoming one of most saturated professions. It's the new "hipster" profession
>>338489638
jack of all trades, master of none
So as long as videogames are considered "artistic" or not by virtue of their story instead of their design then they will always be seen as inferior to Film and Literature, because in overly focusing on narrative videogames are playing on grounds they're not equipped to handle with any considerable depth.
"Emergent narrative" is the real strength of games, not one that's scripted.
t. Writer
>>338485253
>how to code
Because anyone can learn how to code in a week. Modeling a good software is the difficult part. In the case of serious development, software engineers/architects design the system and then they pass the diagrams to programmers to do the tedious and braindead part, which is coding.
>>338484893
Do you think she has a roastie?
>>338498361
I'd say emergent or embedded.
>>338484893
Programming is the 11th art.
>>338486742
>code is math
Syntax is math, semantics is art. You need an understanding of both in order to create good software.
>>338490163
>What is EVE?
>>338498361
Yeah, narrative through interaction is an unique strength of games that really should be exploited more.
>>338484893
Do you have a degree?
Must I have a degree to get a career in programming/sys admin or other IT fields?
So I just finished my first year in college and this is what I've learned
C
and that's it.
Next year it's gonna be assembly and Java
How fucked am I?
>work in factory that makes guitar strings
>mfw reading discussion regarding 'artistic merit' in MUSIC
>no face because my wife's daughter's boyfriend's son suckerpunched me and now I'm feed through a tube in my neck.
>>338499276
C is essential. Assembly is pointless. Java probably gets you jobs long into the future.
>>338499018
>Degree to get a job
Yes, unless you're lucky or well connected
>Degree to be good at programming
No
>>338499514
>assembly is pointless
Seriously? I thought it was pretty important so I didn't take it in summer I'm so fucking stupid holy shit.
>>338499634
Unless you're a very small tiny niche that needs assembly for something, it's completely useless. C is used everywhere. Java is used everywhere.
>>338499740
Ok now I'm mad.
Why did I believe my classmates lies?
>>338499825
Why would you believe complete amateurs. All they have is memes and hot air. Zero actual experience.
>>338499276
Learning a language is a retarded thing to care about.
Learn whatever, what's important is learning concepts.
You can do that with pretty much any imperative programming language. If you want to get in the industry, look at the specifics of Java or C# as you go along.
>>338487131
how old are you?
>>338499947
In the end, if you can write code that generates value for the shareholders, that's all that matters.
Languages are just tools you use to meet a goal. Staying focused and determined can't be underlined enough.
Even more important skill is how to navigate the social sphere. Which a lot of programmers seem to miss. Unless you can get along with people, you'll never get far, if you're not a coding genius.
>>338499947
Well yeah, My next course is gonna focus on Object-based programming which is Java, we are gonna study the paradigm as a whole.
>>338499895
I asked a girl that's two years ahead of me, she told me it was important shit and that I should not rush it.
Fucking bullshit-spouting whore.
>>338500294
>I asked a girl
That should've been the first red flag.
>>338500437
Now I know.
https://www.quora.com/What-programming-language-should-I-learn-to-get-a-job-easily-in-USA-PHP-or-Java
>>338500569
A bit more recent one. https://www.quora.com/Which-programming-language-has-the-most-job-opportunities-and-which-one-offers-the-best-salary
>>338497582
>>338497170
0 (zero) examples
there's a reason no one gives artist any decisions in video game industry
Game Dev
- Designer / Producer / DIrector
- Graphics Eng.
- Sound Eng.
- Coder
Really all of them contribute to the game's direction EXCEPT the codemonkeys.
>>338501281
t. rpg 'maker'
>>338501281
Yes, I'm sure modeling the 100th chair or a table really makes an artistic statement. Trees and rocks make a really big impact on the narrative and gameplay.
>>338484893
I'm actually a programmer in a considerably major studio.
Sooner you realize we're just monkeys whose only purpose is to breathe life into somebody else's vision the better for your.
Sorry, but the industry depends on creatives, not us.
>>338501781
How much do you get paid?
>>338500553
I will comfort you that knowing assembly is not totally useless. While ability to code in assembly is almost pointless nowadays, the underlying concepts can be helpful in some cases in high level languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root
>>338501781
And yet the programmers are paid the highest wages and have the best opportunity to branch swing to another job, that's not gamedev related.
>>338501260
they do it all the time
an artist may notice the game looked shitty so he proposed an alternative visual style, which could really turn the table
that's pretty much what happened with the Borderlands game, the initial visuals were so bad they had to add cel-shading look and boom, it worked
find me one game where the codemonkeys get to change the direction of the game
you can't.
the most they'd do is to make the games more optimized, that's it
>>338501260
literally EVERY game out there with edgy visuals and gameplay mechanics were designed from the art perspective first
>>338502082
I don't see how gamedev has any codemonkey shit in it. Webdev? Sure, you're just doing CRUD 100x. Gamedev? There are really no such things.
It really comes across as if you don't know what you're talking about unless you give a specific example.
Coding a game is also at the same time designing the gameplay and all of the systems that the game uses. Code literally is the gameplay.
>>338501934
No, the producers are paidmost.
Artists are needed everywhere, Hollywood and shit.
If you think artists only get the shitty jobs, ironically shitty programmers also wound up in some Pajeet's Ello Ow Mey Aiee Helb You Sar?I.T company
>>338485253
Correction
Knows how to code and is an uppity bitch about it
>>338502697
I don't think artists get the shitty job. They either get a (often quite decent) job, or are unemployed, hoping to get a job, which is most of them.
>>338488987
>not being a renaissance man
Pathetic.
>>338486892
The gameplay itself is not art. The assets and story is.
>>338501260
As I said - name 5 video game designers that actually code. The fact that they have coded at entry level jobs at some points in their lives is completely and utterly irrelevant and doesn't make them "programmers" you fuckwit.
>>338502082
You can get over a ugly looking game, but when the game crashes and is unoptimized lots of people will stop playing.
Just look at early 3d games.
This is the most neo thread in the history of /v/.
Zach Adams < Tarn Adams: the thread
>>338503216
Name 5 video game designers that still can maintain a decent standard of living after being kicked from that one job that they made that one popular game.
Now name 5 video game designers that never made it and have to find another professions. Literally 99% of them.
>>338503216
>programmers must know complex mathematics otherwise they are just codemonkeys
Stupid, bro.
>>338503216
>The fact that they have coded at entry level jobs at some points in their lives is completely and utterly irrelevant
This is the people I spend my time arguing with... fuck my life.
>>338499018
you don't need a degree to get any job, it just helps you get an interview when you and the boss are complete strangers
>>338502424
Oh no.
Look up beat charts.
Designers / Producers work with everyone, including the Coders.
Designers share their vision with the Artists / Engi's, and they would produce the Art / Sound that fits the vision.
Then it gets added into the chart, and after everything is good to go, the coders come in.
Changes are made all the time and everyone work closely together, BUT not once do the coders have any chance into changing the game's direction.
If gameplay mechanics needs to be revised, it's again up to the Designers, not the Coders.
Coders simply code.
The design of how much acceleration the Player Character needs to move on the X-axis, how high the jumps are, etc. Those are still under the Designer's responsibility.
The Coders just code the numbers in, write the scripts, according to the designer's vision.
Coders don't simply make up numbers.
The end result could have the P.C flying instead of gliding, digging instead of crouching, etc. He needs to code it according to vision of the Designers.
Really, all you do is code. You ain't got nothing on the game's direction. Be it visually, or gameplay mechanics.
>>338503190
And gameplay falls under the Designer's responsibility.
>>338503629
Coding literally is design. You have to design a complex system. A system that is 100% the gameplay. Sure, gameplay designers may tell what the goal is, but a programmer makes that vision actually happen.
>>338484893
L POO2
O O
O2POO2LOO2
2 O
POO2LO P
>>338491209
where have you been the last 2 years?
Gamers are dead and being a nerd is uncool again.
we're finally back to the good old days before 9/11 and G4
>>338504121
Yeah. But YOU LISTEN to the Designers, not vice versa.
You may advise the Designers, telling them this and that would not work, let's have this instead. But it would still fall within the Designer's vision.
The most Coders do is to make it certain function more efficient and the game optimized.
>>338493256
Maybe, game maker has those premade code snips that you can use.
>>338504720
Do you really think the designer is some liberal arts retard bumbling about the studio?
Designer always has coding background.
>>338504121
>design a complex system
That is already done by the Designers, from Level designers to dialogue system, EVERYTHING.
Coders just translate all that charts and system into hard numbers and scripts.
>>338504121
>Coding literally is design.
No, coding is implementation.
Saying a programmer is the designer is akin to saying the bricklayer is the architect.
The design of a system is done by the system designer. While he is almost certainly able to code not all coders are system designers.
>>338504541
Playing video games and watching anime is still cool. What's not cool is being a regressive troglodyte.
>>338499514
"Assembly is pointless." Please, tell me how do you debug your c without knowing asm? Stop spreading bs when you don't know shit. And c is only big in system & embedded nowadays. Not that you would know.
>>338504991
You really don't know shit about programming, do you?
>>338505041
>Playing video games and watching anime is still cool
>>338493256
>GML
lol
>entirely done in code
um no
you only need to learn simple GML to 'code' in GameMaker
>>338503364
Ken Levine
Kojima
Warren Spector
Chris Metzen
Kamiya
Here - 5 game designers that have designed games and are not programmers
>>338503426
Nice strawman.
>>338503438
So by your definition Tim Shaffer is a programmer, right?
>>338505781
Metzen left Blizzard? Kamiya left Platinum? Rest of that list is just a shadow of their former glory doing "indie" stuff and thus far achieving nothing and probably living off their savings.
>>338484893
>Java developer
>thinks he knows C++
>>338505028
He is right though, I was the other guy and I was trying to make the same Architect analogy.
BOTH are the Architect except Designers are the grand master Architect alone, and the Coders are both the construction workers and an Architect of their own class.
>>338505781
what "my definition"?
q: can tim "shaffer" code?
if y then write "tim 'shaffer' is a programmer"
if n then write "tim 'shaffer' is not a programmer"
end
>>338506052
None of them did any coding and that's the entire fucking point. All of them had skills beyond "game design", like art or writing to get their foot in the door, but the fact that none of them where or are programmers remains.
>Rest of that list is just a shadow of their former glory doing "indie" stuff and thus far achieving nothing
Yeah, alright. Keep spouting subjective bullshit and pretending you're making a point.
>>338498331
this implies anyone here is a master of anything
>>338506289
>the Coders are both the construction workers and an Architect of their own class
Nah, the system designers does literally everything but actually type the code. They design every aspect of the system; classes, variables, functions, everything. The coder is just the guy to type it all out. In fact, a huge amount of what a coder does is so mindless it can be automatically generated from system design alone and the coders responsibilities are usually nothing more than filling in empty functions so they do what the design says they should do.
>>338506610
>can tim "shaffer" code?
Exactly you dimwit. The degree to which he can do it determines weather or not he's a programmer. A 7 year old child can write a for loop, that doesn't mean they can program a videogame at AAA level. Just because he programmed a game 25 years ago doesn't mean he is capable of programming at a sufficient enough level to be called a programmer today, not to mention the fact that he doesn't actually do any programming.
>>338506610
Fucking programmers, man.
>>338507354
>Designing classes, variables, functions and "everything" is now not programming
ok, guy
>>338507354
And how is that in any way related to the other guy saying there have never been great game designers that weren't also programmers?
>>338507353
>moving goalposts until my "definition" is safe
>>338508149
Ok friend, I know you don't have an actual argument, so you can disregard the "AAA" bit if you want to, I really don't care.
Why people are arguing here exactly?
Game designer is a job on his own. It doesn't really require programming skill or artistic skill, but having them help.
There was this interview of Miyamoto explaining the first level of mario for example, where the design of the goomba was made to indicate to the player that he must jump on them. This doesn't include include artistic or programming skill, it's just basic game design.
>>338508428
I'm sorry, but Schaefer both wrote and programmed simplistic point and click games.
It's enough to call him a programmer. And I'm not your friend you condescending halfwit, I'm helping you here.
>>338507561
oh it still is
the point is you don't go outside of the programming, you don't touch anything else
>>338508748
Well that depends on the company. It just seems strange to me completely isolating programming from game design, as the two are very closely related.
>>338485253
>i said i can code and people didn't treat me like their messiah
>what the fuck went wrong are we being raided wtf
Terminate yourself.
>>338508625
>Anyone who's ever drawn and sold a painting is a painter
>>338509061
One is what you want to make, the other is how you make it.
>>338484893
>mfw those shoes with that dress
>>338509248
Again, you're moving goalposts, and your definition of art would make even the most hardened neo classicists cringe.
>>338509872
>None of the games he's worked on over the course of almost two decades credit him as programmer
So your argument is literally: Tim Schaffer is a programmer because he has programmed something at one point in his life.
Also: the painting analogy was lenient, because unlike tech and ide's, traditional painting methods haven't changed or advanced over the course of the last twenty years.
>>338511523
they wouldn't be called traditional if they advanced you utter fucking retard
>>338511772
By "traditional" I clearly meant non-virtual, stop posting, please.
>>338512342
alas, we have to abide by definitions ever since wittgenstein came along.
>>338497716
thank you. lol
>>338499514
>Assembly is pointless
Yeah, writig exception handlers is so good in C. You stupid fuck.
>>338513017
If you're unable to derive meaning from context you have no business shitposting on Croatian wheel-carving forums.
>>338499276
>>338499947
This. Picking up new languages, frameworks, etc. as you go is an expected part of any good job in software development. You'll need to constantly stay on top of the current technologies in your field and pick up new languages as you move into teams that use them. When you're working 40-70 hours per week, you'll find that it's pretty easy to pick up a new language in just a few days.
>tfw you can code and art
>but just don't have the time
![large[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/iElwXj8.jpg "large[1]")
![e5929da89a[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/5YNjefC.png "e5929da89a[1]")
