https://www.nintendo.co.jp/wiiu/axfj/update/index.html
Patch 1.1.6 has been confirmed.
Nintendo even went out of the way to specifically state that it is a balance patch, and a fucking big one too!
Last time we had a patch this big without new content we received the huge shield-stun formula change. Could something big be looming on the horizon?
What are your
>Hopes
>Expectations
>Soul-crushing realities
Don't even bother listing DDD/Puff buffs.
>>337952493
My hope is that we get an update that makes the game less flowchart.
>>337952493
>It removes mods
>That's it
who cares
i wanna mod
>>337952796
There is nothing wrong with the fighting in the game
>>337954754
>'pro player' tier lists
>>337954948
I like it, certainly is better then the one we have now that goes all the way down to J tier.
>>337954754
I seriously hope this was before the patch otherwise Mr. R is Mr. Retarded
>>337952493
I only really play Lucas and some occasional Corrin, so if I can just get some random Lucas buffs, I'll be happy.
It'd be nice just to get some blanket buffs for lower tiers too.
>>337954754
>Tier list
>from a Sheik main
>even once
>>337954948
This. The tier list is dictated solely by the pro players and, guess what? Pro players pick characters based on their play-style and what characters they like the most as characters. If Nairo were to pick up Ganon, or Zelda they'd rise up the tier list like any other. Tier lists are stupid by design.
>>337952493
>big balance patch
>mfw
This is going to be either very good or very bad.
>shulk will be ignored yet again
>>337955097
>Before the patch
>With Bayonetta and Corrin on it.
But it's rather recent, he posted it back in May 14th. But that worry, Esam, Tweek and Zero proceeded to shit over him for that list.
>>337954754
>Pikachu is #17
DELETE THIS
>>337952493
Save Duck Hunt!
when do these patches typically go live
>>337952493
>Hopes
Lucario gets buffed
>Expectations
Lucario doesn't get buffed because LOL AURA MAKES EVERY MATCH 50:50 XD
>Soul-crushing realities
Lucario gets nerfed because LOL AURA IS OP XD
>>337955706
>Lucario gets buffed
What buffs does he need?
>>337952493
>Roy buffs
>Sheik unchanged
>Bayo nerfs
That's all i need
Borb
>>337955517
Yeah but we've had a patch since they've been out. The one that nerfed Sheik yet he still has her at one
>>337955810
His framedata is beyond terrible, especially relative to the hitboxes of his moves.
>>337955914
When was the patch released? Because he posted that list May 14
>>337955875
Borb
or borbs?
I just want Falco buffs. Something on dair or lasers.
>>337954754
>>337954948
>>337955097
>>337955175
I'm trying to figure out what's wrong with it.
Just swap Sonic and ZSS, MK and Pika and I think that list is great. Maybe you could make a case for the lower tiers being too low or high respectively, but who fucking cares?
>>337955875
I'm always too lazy to turn on my console when someone posts codes, even though I'd love to play ASA.
Have fun whoever gets it.
>Hopes
Shulk buffs
>Expectations
Bayo buffs
>>337955280
dumb margotposter
there's nothing we can do to fix shulk
>>337956171
its such a shame how neutered falco is in smash 4.
Buff peach! All I want is turnips to have a bit higher knockback.
>>337955810
Not him but his smashes are slow as fuck with arguably too much landing lag. His comboing power is also very mediocre in comparison to his Brawl form
>>337956045
1.1.5 the current build came out in March I think. It was the one that shot Mewtwo up to a high tier character. This list is definitely after that one and Shiek was nerfed in it to the point she's still high tier but not number one. That's honestly debatable between Diddy Kong and Bayonetta. Well till 1.1.6 shits on Bayonetta
>>337952493
>>Hopes
The patch will allow users to actually set Stock/1Vs1 tournaments, as well as the option to allow customs while still forbidding equipment
The patch will also create a for Glory new category with no item but where Custom Special are allowed (still with Equipment off,, ofcourse).
>>Soul-crushing realities
Who am I kidding? Snake and Ice Climbers being new character has more chance to happens than this.
>>337956434
What changed with Mewtwo that he is high tier now?
>>337956406
>landing lag
I mean endlag, my bad
>Hopes
[Insert main here] buffs
>Expectations
[Insert high-tier character here]
>Soul-crushing realities
[Insert shit-tier character that will never be good here]I just want Ganondorf to be viable.
>>337952493
>Hopes
They buff Jiggs, Dedede and Samus. Cloud is removed and Bayo is nerfed slightly.
>Expectations
None of the things I want will happen.
>giving a shit about a patch that won't change anything
>>337956434
Bayonetta is good no doubt, but I hesitate to call her the best in the game. Yes she her Zero to death are crazy but her recovery is predictable and easy target to counter, mediocre neutral game, struggles a lot against sword and camping characters and she just lacks the high result on tournament that you would expect from her given how much people talk about her.
>>337956182
Let's see
>Shiek number one
>Greninja in top tier
>Mega Man that high
>Ness that low
>Falcon in fucking mid
>Marth that high
>Falco that fucking low
It's shit
>>337956508
He's sanic fast now
I just want them to make Palutena and Zelda not complete shit.
>>337956674
>the jiggs not even attempting to rest
>>337954754
>greg, mewtwo, luigi above ness, olimar, and peach
>people actually think mewtwo is good now
>a
>>337956508
Everything, speed being one of the most important changes.
>>337956674
I hope they never ban this stage. Being able to take advantage of predictable stage danger is part of the fun of a pro play.
>>337956406
So more combo ability being the best option.
That seems like something they might add: they often change knockback / damage of moves so who knows?
>They end up tying weight to jump momentum
>>337956821
>Resting in Smash 4
Why bother?
>>337956508
He's faster, has confirms into kills and lot better combos, his hitboxes are fixed and he got more range
Here he is winning Pound 2016 the last major by 3-0'ing Ally
http://youtu.be/uiWmJxsV7ws
>>337956845
>people actually think mewtwo is good now
Did you not see Abadango win Pound 2016 with Mewtwo?
>>337956508
From 1.1.5
Mewtwo is slightly heavier: 72 → 74.
Mewtwo dashes faster (1.9 → 2.05), now being slightly faster than Sheik.
Up smash ending lag decreased by five frames.
Neutral aerial's multi-hits hitboxes are larger: 2.3u → 3u.
>>337956845
Abadango won a fucking national with him & got 2nd at a big aussie national, of course people think he's good.
Also there are other Mewtwo players doing decently.
Buff something on Mega Man besides leaf shield.
Further Samus buffs. She got some good stuff last patch but nothing was game-changing.
>>337956884
Anon...
>>337952493
Rosalina and Bayonetta are getting nerfed
Minor buffs will be handed out randomly to the rest of the cast
>>337956171
>>337956289
I wanted to pick up Falco and worked with him for about two months before I realized how bad he actually is. He does literally everything worse than what the rest of the cast can do. With basically no projectile, your only tool in neutral is emptyhop or sh bair. While those are OK moves, they use no disjoint and Falcos poor speed can't force many punishable situations. You don't have to respect Falco ANYWHERE on stage. He reminds me of a worse Falcon in neutral
It's so fucking stupid after 2 years nothing has been done.
I hope Bayonetta doesn't get touched. Fuck autistic Smash babies who can't adapt and just complaint
>>337956821
Do you mean on the Ganon? Cause they're on the same team m8
>>337956884
It's banned
>>337956996
One tournament is cool but he's still a mediocre character in my opinion.
Who do you want buffed guys?
>>337957176
>>337957132
You mean, in some minor tournaments?
>>337957196
He has been placing very high at regionals as well since 1.1.5, you don't just win a national with every single top player at it aside Zero by being a mediocre character. He's legit good now
>>337957319
No.
>>337957319
In the big ones, Evo won't have it.
>>337956845
Luigi hasn't seen results since like forever, Ness' meta has kinda stopped, Olimar still has meh results., everyone says Peach has potential but not proven
Mewtwo won a major and Mr.R plays with iStudying a lot so he knows how well the character can perform
>>337955517
Are you posting that picture because you find it untrue?
Bowser Jr is legitimately one of the worst character in game IMO. And coming from someone who originally set out to main him, too.
A fun moveset hampered by horrible windup, predictability out the ass and only 1 reliable kill move.
BuffRosalina
>>337957219
Bowser and his son.
>>337957468
I think FOW will keep ness relevant for awhile, he's definitely not as good as people thought but be he can get some results if he really works for it.
>>337957619
No I'm posting it because it's a funny picture
>>337952493
>Hopes
>Ness
increased super armor duration on PKT2
Either decrease Dair start up or make the hitbox larger
Reduce base knock back on Nair so I can combo with something other than Up air and Fair strings
Increase knock back scaling on Up tilt and match hit box with animation
>Falco
Any fucking thing
>Expectations
"WE HAVE NOW ADDED SMASH TOUR TO 3DS PLEASE ENJOY!"
>>337957735
DON'T EVER BUFF ME OR MY SON AGAIN
>>337956768
>Shiek number one
Sheik has continued to win majors even in 1.1.5, while Bayo has had poor results.
>Gren
Mr R is an international player and has played iStudying many times, just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't there. He's in the lowest end of top-tier anyway.
>Mega Man
Scatt got 4th (I think) at levelup. MM is good.
>Ness
What fucking Ness players? FOW? He's been frauding out for a year. Ness might be top 5 at destroying scrubs, but top players aren't walking into PKfire
>Falcon in mid
This I can maybe understand being a little low, just based on results. Cloud is 65:35 against him though, and we've been seeing a ton more recently.
>Marth
Marth has got some great options now with jab 1 and landing lag decreasing over every patch. To say he's near the middle of the pack in 1.0.4 would be wrong, but as of now he's much better.
>Falco
Falco is really shit dude. There's nothing Falco does that other characters can't do 2x better.
>>337956768
All that shit and you didn't even bother to point out that Diddy is at #2, which makes literally no sense after all his nerfs.
post yf when Bayonetta gets buffed
>>337955280
>>337955280
Just play Cloud goyim. What's the matter? $5.99 too much for you?
>>337954605
Wii U framework needs to be updated for that to be patched.
>>337957889
>Tfw FOW is our only hope since Shakey isn't gud enough and NAKAT is a fraud
Yet people will still complain he's OP because Le PK Fire and Back throw kid
>>337954754
Bowser Jr is not the 3rd worst in the game. The fuck is this list?
>>337958042
>He's been frauding out for a year.
You okay, m8? Or are you pretending to be Hax/mang0 with this "anything not 1st is worthless" shit?
>>337958049
Diddy has been getting "buffed" each time a top tier gets nerfed because he stopped getting touched early. He still a really fucking good character
>>337952493
This just makes me question Nintendo even more. Why would you continue to spend money balancing this game?
>>337958146
>all those posts in /ssbg/ when Ness won his first tourney
>it was in the very first iteration of SSB4, before any nerfs
>mfw Diddy
>mfw no face
>>337958042
Mega Man also won a fairly big tournament in japan
>>337952493
Fuck you I want Dedede buffs.
>>337958252
Jesus fuck he doesn't go to anything.
>>337958337
Same reason why Blizzard released a patch for Diablo 2 not even 2 months ago (but obvious not to that scale)
Please buff my sons
>ness
Increase distance on pkt2
Make his dair not shit
>lucas
Fix his dsmash, make it three hit
Make his grab faster and less punishable
Make his uair and make it usable
Make dair a bit stronger
>>337958314
Sure but he's still noticeably worse than Bayo & Cloud, possibly Sonic as well. There is no way that even with his semi-buffs of other characters getting worse that Diddy is #2. Top 10, sure, maybe, but not Top 2.
>>337958337
Man fuck Nintendo, these morons keep supporting their old games LMAO
It'll be something worthless that people will bitch about until the next maybe-patch.
>>337954754
>Bowser Jr. this low
How no one uses him is beyond me, that nigga can put so much pressure in the battle it's ridiculous, he also has some killer combos.
>>337952493
>Hopes
All characters commonly below A tier in lists get buffed hard.
>Expectations
Bayo, Corrin, Sheik, Sanic, Cloud and Rosa nerfs. They will still be the best characters in the game.
>Soul-crushing realities
No one will get nerfed too hard, the meta will stay shit and relatively p2w. Bayo's kill combo will get nerfed, but a lot of other shit will come up and she'll still be broken thanks to witch time alone.
>Marth/Lucina buffs
>Corin, Sheik and ZSS nerfs
>Bowser and Bayonetta nerfs
>>337958042
What majors? 1.1.5 hasn't been out but for a short amount of time I'll give you Greninja and Marth tho but not the others
>>337958463
No sponsor or some shit. Hard to get around the country without that money.
>>337958491
Fuck just meant make his uair usable.
>>337958485
Is Blizzard currently in the middle of its biggest crisis as a company?
>>337958498
>morons
From a business perspective, yes.
>>337958537
Because he only really has 3 good moves and 2 of them are predictable.
>>337956406
So what? The most common kill setup for Lucario is Aura Sphere charge into up smash. That kills at around 60% with aura. He doesn't need smash attack buffs.
>>337958537
Don't think that playing on tournaments is the same as For Glory
>>337958141
if they try to block homebrew shit as a whole, yeah. they could be adding something to SSB4 that's just to protect it
it doesn't make a lick of sense for them to do so, though.
>>337958141
Sorry for coming off as a retard but framework means the same as in FPS
right? Why would they need to up the FPS? you telling me they can't do a simple security patch without buffing the FPS?
>>337958537
>>337958709
Tweek used Bowser Jr. Then realized you can't do shit with such a low tier main and switched to Cloud. He's done significantly better since the switch.
Buff low-tiers.
Leave everyone else alone, that's it.
I can guarantee at least one thing from this patch
>Dedede:No Changes
>>337958543
>Corrin
>one of the best
Also only Bayo from your list should get nerfs
>>337958496
Bayonetta sure, Cloud has losing match ups against other top tiers hence why he isn't placed higher than Diddy but he has a good MU against Diddy. MUs and tier placements are two separate things.
Everyone else he has that banana. The banana is seriously what keeps him in top tier
>bayonetta will be nerfed
>>337958570
>Bowser nerfs
WHY?!
>>337958581
Who the fuck is #1 then? I'll wait.
>>337958879
>it'll be one of those irrelevant nerfs that don't actually affect her combos
Can't wait for shitter tears to flow.
LEARN TO SDI, FAGS.
>>337958824
Still doesn't deny the fact he got results with him. Won multiple Xanadus and got into Top 16 in EVO with him.
>>337956845
forget about those 3
>>337954754
when the hell did greninja become A tier?
>>337958570
I hope a fucking Devilijho eats you
>>337959009
Xanadus are free. Out of state comes in all the time and beats them the fuck up. EVO is decent but Customs On is eh, even more so when Mii Brawler didn't top yet has easy and early as fuck kill confirms.
>>337957468
>Peach has potential but not proven
Fuck, don't remind me. She can be technical as shit with all her floating and turnip shenanigans but there aren't enough people dedicated to her to really bring out her best.
Plus she's really entertaining to watch when someone is decent with her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os7oG1_WpTQ
>>337958930
Diddy or Bayo
>>337958909
He rarely gets any buffs. You remember him being a monster in the E3/TGS builds right?
>>337958989
Literally one of her moves can't be SDId you faggot.
Also SDI in smash 4 is super weak in general
I hope they buff Duck Hunt again. I started fucking murdering For Glory with him with the tiny power boost they gave to his smash attacks.
I'm hoping bayo stays the same personally as a ness main. I think it hilarious that people can't adapt to her yet.
>>337958570
They already removed Bowser's UThrow kill confirm. Why nerf him?
Can Dedede please get at least ONE buff?
>>337959081
Sense iStudying and aMSa are getting good result, he is also very big in Japan.
>>337959139
Give me recent results to prove that.
Oh wait, nor Diddy or Bayo have got top 3 at anything so far. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
>>337959205
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJNu49zOkXE
Cry all you want, Bayo literally can't even win big tournaments consistently. Barely manages to top half the time, if at all. The only crybabies about Bayo are For Glory shitters.
>>337959139
Bayo never won anything major in the US.
>>337959293
aMSA hasn't had good results in a year
>>337952493
>>Hopes
Cloud and ZSS stay unchanged, I'd appreciate Marth and Robin buffs as well
>>Expectations
seems like this is gonna be a big one, apparently the 3DS patch is 5x the size of the WiiU's so who knows what to expect
>>Soul-crushing realities
Bayo will be nerfed to hell. I don't particularly care for her, but it sucks to know the best way to balance something is to drag down those at the top, otherwise we get Mahvel 3.
>>337959205
Nigga you could DI out of her shit from day one. Get real.
>>337959225
I'm sure you adapted to her since you beat all the FG Bayos
I hope Dedede never gets buffed. You all are fags who bitch way too much.
>>337959314
>The only crybabies about Bayo are For Glory shitters.
No, Spain and Russia cried about her so much that they banned her.
>>337959314
>ESAM
Yeah, i'll trust the faggot who keeps saying Pikachu loses like 2 matchups in Brawl and Smash 4.
>>337952493
Just make Wario better
He's not trash tier or anything but he's only gotten bugfixes and very minor buffs since release
And if you're playing someone who isn't shit your gameplan is wait for waft and hope he sucks for the 1/2 second it takes to waft him
>>337957093
Is she really that weak? I main her, but I'm a bad player so I'm a horrible comparison.
>>337959139
>Bayo
lol
People need to produce results for a character to be #1 outside of little locals and Japanese tournaments where half the participants play Bayo.
>tr4sh
>>337959605
>Spain and Russia
I can't even think of any relevant Spanish or Russian players across ANY Smash game, let alone SSB4. Why the fuck would their opinions matter when they have no good players?
>>337956936
Free kills. Have you never played Smash Bros?
>People still crying for Corrin to get nerfed
>>337956884
I think the main problem with Halberd is its stupidly low ceiling more than any hazard.
>>337959139
Bayo can barely even win in Japan, everywhere else in the World no first place results at anything above locals, barely any Top 8s and practically no Top 4s.
Fuck outta here, nigga.
>>337959370
Because US has no good Bayo players, most of them are from japan and don't travel much
>>337959672
A lot of her moves are relatively situational, and the hitboxes for a lot of them are wonky as fuck.
Plus I have heard that some of Samus' moves actually extend her hurtbox as well, which is beyond fucking retarded.
>>337959672
She has way too many punishable moves that aren't even that strong to balance out the endlag/startup. Samus is like an awkward middle ground of fast combo characters and slow heavies.
rate my tier list
>>337959647
Delete Wario, everyone who plays him is a bad winner. Never met someone who played Wario and didn't start shit talking the moment he won, but goes quiet when losing.
I want my Ganon and Palutena buffs. They desperately need them.
>>337959836
>people still salty about Corrin
About half the games I play with her people just walk off the edge and immediately leave.
>>337952493
Remove Bayonetta
>>337959827
He's saying Rest is shit in SSB4.
>>337954754
>Jigglypuff
>F
DELETE THIS
>>337959827
>smash 4 rest
>free kill
>>337952493
Give him something Sakurai, fucking anything just give him SOMETHING!
Every single character has a gimmick now, but Ganon has fucking NOTHING. He's just a slow hitter with moves that are slow but """"""rewarding"""""" which doesn't mean shit if your character has a sword or intangible hitboxes so you never have to approach and he's too slow to be a rushdown character like Falcon.
His fastest move comes out on frame 7, his shield punish is nonexistent due to how fucking fast shields regenerate. His grab is so short you can't punish smashes on shield like other characters because he gets pushed out of their range. His body never leaves the z-axis like other characters so it's extremely easy to his him out of his dodges.
He has fantastic specials locked behind shitty customs, and his regular specials are just worse than Falcon's in every way for the sake of being slow and worse. Despite the fact that Falcon's down and side be can KILL at equal/lower percentages than his. The only difference is his warlock punch and uptilt which are fucking meme moves. At least Brawl had untechable standing side-b's and chain grab, and at least in Melee your double jump resets after you use down-b.
So they're patching this bug out, right?
>>337959749
Because some regions in the USA have banned her as well
>>337960154
And some regions in USA are shit. Like MDVA, which bitches about Pink Fresh and Bayo as if he didn't shit on them with Lucas as well.
>>337959749
Russia had the 2nd best Melee Ganon until he retired
>>337959890
>everywhere else in the World no first place results at anything above locals
Xanadu is very big local, so Pink Fresh taking first has to count for something.
>>337959901
>Because US has no good Bayo players
Nigga have you never seen Pink Fresh, AeroLink or Le Troof play?
>>337959967
>that image
>>337960147
Why the fuck does he have so little moves that make use of his chainsaw sword? Nearly every move he has that uses his sword feels no different than any other sword user? Why doesn't he use his dragon-form attacks more often? He's the epitome of wasted potential imo
>>337959749
They have a small but very good smash 64 player base. Some are said to be on the level of tacos, superboomfan, and isai.
>>337959642
Better him than an anon faggot who's trash at the game.
>>337960204
This, finally someone on /v/ schools these shitters.
>>337960147
yeah, they don't need to advertise his games no more
>>337959497
It's likely to be updated sound files.
>>337960126
They give him stuff every patch. You'll get your 'something', especially since they've got nair and jab right.
>>337960398
Atleast i'm not a gigantic SJW faggot like Esam
>>337959960
Pls no bully
I just like le jew man who floats through the air with the greatest of ease
>>337959910
but having a hurtbox extend out with a moves hitbox is what every fighting game does, why is it the norm that something that basic is different in smash in the first place
>>337960204
Speaking of Lucas, I wonder how he would fare if they buffed him. Like, they could safely buff him without having another Bayo situation, and his combo game is already excellent so I'd love to see the results of some better framedata. Good Lucas play is a joy to watch.
>>337960342
Pink Fresh taking first in that tournament only says that Pink Fresh is really good with a good character. I don't see a reason why she needs to be nerfed other than her Witch Time being jank as fuck.
The only viable argument against Bayonetta is that she isn't fun to play with. At all. She's worse than Mario, Link, and Cloud combined, but beyond that there's nothing inherently broken about her.
>>337960342
>Xanadu
Can we stop bringing up this meme region? Boss still places there with Luigi post-nerfs. Out of state comes and takes their money every couple of weeks. Xanadu is a joke.
Also I haven't seen Le Troof in ages. I miss when he played Bowser.
>>337960204
List Xanadus that Pink Fresh won before Bayo release
Want:
>Kirby air speed slight boost
>Metaknight buffs to make up for his uair to death combo
>Tweaks to clouds kill potential that punish not having limit break up IE Nerfs to non limit break fsmash/dsmash/usmash.
>All sword characters now use daggers instead
>Greninja buffs, less ending lag on shadow sneak, slightly more push from up B.
>Pit buffs, give him atleast one auto cancel aerial, make his up tilt not useless, reduce ending lag on arrows
>Make all custom moves unlocked by default ffs
>Add option to create 1v1 tourneys, proper team tourneys and so called "Classic" tourneys instead of this awkward as fuck point system tourney
>NerfSpooky
Expected changes:
>Pointless buffs to nerfed characters
>Metaknight increased knockback on utilt or some shit
>Sheik now .5 more heavy
>Other stuff no one wanted
>Ignored jigglypuff for the sake of tradition
>>337960115
>>337960000
Right, but it isn't. You simply can't use it at 20% on Bowser and win without trying.
>>337960392
That's fair, I guess. But in terms of SSB4 do they have anyone?
>>337960593
Walking makes her hurtbox bigger.
Her FTilt adds a weird unnecessary hurtbox above her foot that extends past the model
Her hurtboxes are all bigger than her hitboxes when doing her As
>>337960593
Why does it matter if it's the norm in fighting games? This isn't a traditional fighting game at all, and as far as I know most other characters do not have this attribute with the majority of their moves, so why does Samus have to have it?
>>337960782
And considering the rest of Puff's set this makes Puff shit. Your only chance at winning is to get matched up with, like, a Cloud or Little Mac and just bair them out of existence.
>>337960805
>But in terms of SSB4 do they have anyone
lmao
the ONLY notable thing anyone from Xanadu (smash 4) did EVER was Seagull Joe beating Zero once in bracket
Please, Nerf Luigi
>>337960683
No fuck you, Xanadu has TKbreezy, EE and besy boy Coney. So it's great by default
>>337960472
They're good moves but they're not moves that will make his character. They still follow the laws of standard hit boxes and can be easily out spaced, and out maneuvered. If Ganon's palm blast at the end of his jab was intangible then you'd be on to something but no even the fucking aura around his hand is part of his body and can lead to some incredibly stupid punishes against Ganon.
>>337952493
Will they ever bring back the best stage?
It's in literally every game except this one.
>>337960995
>good commentators means their players are good
>>337961058
It's inthe 3ds version
>>337961058
3ds
>>337960943
I was talking about Spain and Russia but this is true as well. Xanadu is shit tier, I don't get all these people touting out these results from glorified locals.
>>337960995
Anon, I watch Xanadu every week for the commentary but let's be real, the players themselves aren't that good.
>>337960960
cool b8 m8
What could make him good? I just want Roy to be good.
>>337952493
I DON'T CARE WHAT THEY DO
BUFF BAYONETTA, NERF DEDEDE, REMOVE HALF OF THE CHARACTERS
JUST FUCKING BUFF THE PUFF
>>337961014
The Ganon fixes he needs will literally never happen in this game, because his problems are tied to the fact that he's a slower Falcon clone STILL after 3 games.
The only thing that will ever happen is that his moves will do more damage and kill earlier, which doesn't fix his problems and only make him more annoying to fight. I love Ganon but he needs to be reworked heavily to fix the problems he has.
>>337961263
Make him look like the cute boy on the right again
Hopefully they wont nerf my husbando
>>337961263
Project M
Who's ready for Dedede, Puff and Dorf to get nothing?
>>337961282
Puff will 100% never be buffed. You can thank Hbox vs Reggie for that.
>>337961263
Make him a Marth alt costume because he shouldn't have been brought back in the first place.
>>337961263
less lag on everything. Roy has the lag of a spacing character like marth lucina shulk, with a close combat play style. He should be the only combo heavy swordsman in the game, but hes gated by insane lag on his aerials aside from neutral air, and his tilts. also his jab is a wonky one hit. But its pretty nice for setting up.
>>337961282
>NERF DEDEDE
Why, he's already pretty shitty
Buff Ganondad, Sakurai.
>>337961263
They would need to entirely revamp (or rather, give him) neutral game and a better recovery.
>>337961263
Reliable followups, kill moves, less lag so he can be agressive.
>>337961463
Did you not get the point of the post
I don't care what Sakurai does, as long as Jigglypuff gets buffed, I'm fine.
Dedede is shit, and Bayonetta is broken.
>>337961462
I agree on this, but they'd need to nerf his sweetspot knockback too. Make the sweetspot matter for damage, not early fsmash kills.
Just give me Zelda buffs. Anything to make her more competent.
>>337961368
Handsome Roy > Cute RoyThose disco pants have to go, though
>>337961381
Ike is probably the best treated character in these patches, I wouldn't worry
Give me some Lucas buffs please. Make him at least a little more viable instead of getting totally dismissed due to Ness' superiority.
At least fix the fucking up-air, it sucks dicks compared to Ness' and has the weirdest and shittiest hitbox.
>>337961282
>weight increased 68 -> 70
ur welcumdair should autocancel out of shorthop and jab should reset again
>>337961690
I remember launch 3DS Ike, horrendous.
>>337961263
Make him like Project M. Give him actual combos.
Game & Watch buff please
I'll take anything
>>337954754
>Corrin only in B tier
No fucking way he isn't S tier
>>337961263
Even faster, even more range on nair, more reliable throw combos. Up throw knockback buff for bonus. Maybe even a reliable ken combo but that would never happen.
>>337961690
BUt he's not even handsome, he looks dumb. We got Ike to fill the handsome quota.
>>337961731
I agree but on the other hand he has a lot of confirms into the up air.
>>337960556
Yeah i'll give you that
>>337958616
Lucas's Uair is very usable out of dthrow though
>>337961731
I wish they would give Lucas something to distance him a bit from Ness
He doesn't need any super big buffs though
>mfw the patch blocks all attempts at modding the game
DO IT, HACKURAI, FOR THE TEARS
>>337961952
>Corrin
>S tier
You're joking right?
>>337961263
Remove Roy and combine some of his moves with Corrin.
>>337962141
FUCK YOU
>>337952493
>Hopes
they buff pac man
>Expectations
they don't
>>337962261
Dude Pacman is broken. Did you see my Japanese footstool Vine combo?
>>337959929
I like how Ike is an universally respected character. Truly he's best FE.
>>337961342
It just goes to show how sterile and neutered this iteration of Smash is. In Melee you could recover your jump after a down-b, l-canceling made him really fun character for tech chasing opponents with your stomp. Even though he was a low tier the mechanics of Melee still gave a good experience at high level play.
Smash 4 is too rigid with everything there's no way to play around his fundamentally bad design other than just out playing trades against your opponent 100% of the time which is just stressful as opposed to rewarding because all it takes is one bad move to eat shit and lose a stock.
>Hopes
Bayonetta slight weight increase and floatiness
>Expectations:
Nerf the uptitl
>>337962443
You forgot that they removed DACUS because Sakurai is a cunt faggot.
>>337958814
I forgive you for coming off as a retard.
One of the meanings of FPS is Frames Per Second. How many frames per second are displayed = the framerate.
Framework is something else entirely, the basic structure of something.
I hope Corrin's counter gets a fucking nerf holy shit
>>337956468
>The patch will allow users to actually set Stock/1Vs1 tournaments, as well as the option to allow customs while still forbidding equipment
A proper fucking tourney mode would actually be a sensible and legit great thing and I could see it happening.
I'll hope with you.
>>337962621
It already did and is fine as things are.
>>337952493
>>Hopes
Samus will be buffed and really good.
>>Expectations
Samus will be buffed in the spots that don't matter.
>>Soul-crushing realities
They won't touch Samus, and this update is just to prevent further modding of the game.
I hope not, I fucking love custom music mods.
>>337956632
Play well enough and ganon can be great. Just need to put more effort than other characters.
>>337962668
This guy gets it
sheesh, I haven't played Smash in months.
should I patch it now or wait for the newer patch?
>>337962746
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGh4ZU4H5Hk
>>337962846
I think the update is later tonight so there's literally no point in updating now.
>>337962795
MODSalso saved
>>337962795
thanks
>>337957319
>>337956884
It's been banned for a while now.
It wasn't because of the hazards either. The hazards are actually ok, since they're predictable as fuck.
The problem is that 60% of the match is played with a SUPER low ceiling.
Nerf Falcon into the fucking ground please.
He's fucking broken.
So as of right now, the top characters are Bayo, Rosa, Cloud, and Pika.
Rosa, Cloud, and Pika all have several bad matchups.
What's Bayo's bad matchup?
>>337963159
Thats a pivot grab.
It looks the same for literally all characters.
>>337961263
Make him like Brawl Marth in terms of frame data.
>>337952493
I just want melee jigg back.
>>337963107
And most of the top tiers in the game can chain 100 up airs into up b so I can see why that would be a problem.
Also, the underside of the ledges can be really wonky.
>>337963268
Nope, fuck off Falcon main.
>>337963243
Good players, considering she never wins anything major outside of Japan.
>>337962860
I'm saying if you like ganon enough, make it happen. Effort = Reward
>>337963243
>Pika
>top
Fuck off, Esam.
>>337963243
>Pika
>top character
lmao
>>337962950
>>337963002
what was it?
>>337963243
Mario has some presence, Fox has also gained some popularity, Diddy is still great and Sheik can still wreck shit.
I want the option to turn stage hazards off.
>>337963463
Some match-ups this is just outright impossible. Like, even if you're playing optimally you then, on top of that, need the other player to be playing substandard.
Like, Bayo, Cloud, Sheik, Ganon winning against those characters is such an uphill climb that you pretty much need the other player to be playing badly to have a shot.
>>337963607
cute boy performing fellatio
FASTER DAIR
FASTER PEW PEW
LESS LANDING LAG ON NAIR
3F BACK AIR INSTEAD OF 4F
UTILT THAT COMBOS PAST 15 PERCENT
>>337963618
>Mario has some presence
Anti talked about dropping Mario recently. Hopefully Ally keeps him. Watching Mario is pretty fun once they're out of the regular d-throw combo percentages.
>>337963607
Roy playing with Marth's Falchion
>>337963743
Melee
Buff kirby where it fucking counts please.
No i dont want to see decimal increases to smash knockback and hammer knockback. i want to see more air speed, better follow ups from forward throw at higher percents or make down throw chainable into something else, auto snap to ledge on final cutter instead of having to be 200% accurate on where you start it for it to snap at the very peak of the up B and slightly higher jump height from the ground + first air jump. He's got the frame data, hes already one of the lightest characters in the game, just needs a few tweaks to his mobility and he'd be top tier.
>>337963730
>boy performing fellatio
oh.
>not cute girl
>>337963743
Go to bed, Keitaro.
>>337963463
>Play a character with ranged killing moves
>Play a character with a sword
There I completely shut your Ganon down, you have no way to win the neutral you can never out zone me you've lost the match the second it started.
>>337963743
Falco just seems completely pointless to me in 4, I get that they wanted to differentiate him from Fox but he's just retarded now
>Hopes
Any buffs for my mains. Not going to bother asking for nerfs anymore, just want my characters to be more smooth.
>Expectations
They'll probably mess with Bayo some more, and nerf Corrin because people are babies.
>Soul-crushing realities
I don't know, it's a pretty big update, something important's gotta be there,unless it's a patch focusing entirely on custom moves
>>337963940
He's a Frankenstein monster of Melee Fox, Brawl Fox, and Star Wolf taking all of their worst moves to make one incredibly mediocre character.
>tfw your main is so balanced he never got any patches and is still fine
>>337963796
nah
>>337963940
Falco's a punish-based combo character. He's hard to get momentum going, but once you do, shit's crazy. Lasers are suprisingly good for keeping up pressure. I love how he plays in this game, just needs a few buffs here and there.
>>337964223
>Edge camping simulator
>Balanced
>he fell for the sm4sh meme
>>337964170
Both his nair and fair do basically the same thing and do not combo into anything and rarely from outside of throws/uptilt. He's a selfproclaimed air-fighter but he's completely dogshit at it.
>>337952493
The best thing that can happen to Smash is some kind of RNG element added to make you take critical damage and OHKO at a %chance seperate from the health bar. Tourneyfags need to be BTFO'd.
>>337964290
how is he not
>>337964303
I genuinely love the game but hate parts of it. Friendly matches are incredibly fun since we're both pretty much equally skilled.
>>337964354
(You)
>DDD will never get buffed since he's "already perfect"
>Ike will only get minor ones
>Mega Man 2
It hurts
has robin been buffed once?
>>337964236
Brawl?
>>337964303
>she fell for the "I'll be safe from the nazis here!" meme
>>337963940
>>337963743
Hes so bad it is sad. he has 0 combos, 0 flair, slow as shit.
>>337964354
The game is already a complete piece of shit competitively. The game could be turned into rolling dice to win and people will still play it competitively.
>>337963647
I feel you anon, I main DK and Ganon and I have to say, it's hard. Ganon takes some serious mind games and you really have to outplay the opponent. His slowness makes people want to go in on him, but his power makes people cautious, so you have to get into their heads. You can't completely rely on punishing so you have to rely on shield pressure and just pressure in general. His U-air is pretty good for spacing, especially when covering the landing with a tilt.
>>337963916
That's quite a black and white way of looking at the match up isn't it? Every character and player has weaknesses, you just have to find them.
>>337964432
>>Ike will only get minor ones
He got plenty of good buffs.
>caring about balance
>in a children's party game
It's made for fun, not for you autistic faggots to sperg out about
>>337964354
rage is already half this so no thank you
what do you guys think of rage anyway? A comeback mechanic isn't inherently bad but I hate how you can actually get punished for bodying your opponent.
>>337964305
>Aerial figher
>Is literally a FUCKING BIRD
>Has worse aerial mobility and recovery than Fox
Holy shit how does Sakurai still have a job?
>>337964560
I gave you a (you) already, calm down.
>>337962141
Physically impossible unless Nintendo updates the framework of the Wii U. Which I'm sure they're busy dealing with the the hacking situation than Smash mods.
>>337964560
>simpsons reaction image
Why would I care about what an autist /co/ckroach has to say?
>>337964305
Nair and Fair both combo into themselves, Uair strings can end in bair, nair, and fair. Dair is really his only bad aerial in my opinion.
>>337964489
yo fight me, nnid is snantas. if you play 3ds thats cool too
>>337962354
His fans can get a bit annoying but I just can't hate Ike at all.
It's just going to be further locking down on modding. They won't touch anything else.
>>337964580
It's literally a mechanic to punish you for winning or reward you for losing. Fucking stupid but hey, it's not as bad as tripping.
>>337964580
most of the time it means the one winning just wins more
i'm pretty indifferent on it, it doesn't seem like it's necessary but it doesn't really detract either
>>337963243
>Pika
Get outta here Esam. That spot is for ZSS.
reminder this was a "good set" in 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLEyzABtG4c
reminder this was a "good set" in 2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaTLrETmoZU
>>337964580
Absolutely unnecessary mechanic and makes Lucario even more of an annoyance.
>>337964872
FUCKING THANK YOU
I have been looking for this picture for so long.
>>337964760
>flat out say its a balancing gameplay patch
>just shit about mods
Can you even read?
>>337958073
Not gonna happen, she's already been nerfed
>>337962746
>>337963463
There is no amount of effort anyone can put in that will make Ness win a matchup against Rosalina.
There are a few characters that just have unwinnable matchups. Ganon's one of them, with his fuckawful matchups against Sonic and Marth.
Effort doesn't always equal reward. Sometimes you have to put in a disproportional amount of effort to achieve the same reward (like the effort to make Kirby viable), and sometimes monumental effort won't actually reward you with anything (such as with Ganon or Jigglypuff).
This is pretty much the basis for fighting games with characters with different properties.
>>337964764
>>337964767
I just hate how I can get my opponent to 130% and I'm at 60 and they kill me with a regular fsmash. I guess I gotta be extra aware when rage is effective but you can't avoid shit forever.
It also makes combos even more rare in this game.
>>337963243
Bayo's worst match up is probably anyone small and can keep her out. So probably Villager and Pikachu
>>337964969
if you aren't able to play at least two characters in smash 4 you're pretty dumb
>>337963607
Roy binding someone's blade with his mouth.
>>337964873
>Leffen
>good set
>Sm4sh
Not even with sarcasm is this okay.
>>337965058
2014, faggot
>>337965045
ESAM pls go
>>337965058
I think you missed his point.
>>337965048
While that's fair and I agree, it doesn't change that the other anon was wrong.
>>337964432
jesus christ some people will just whine forever
>>337965308
Corrin > Ike based on results alone.
>>337965330
Oh yeah, for sure
But Smash 4 legit has close to unwinnable matchups and you always want a secondary
It's a game with, what? 59 fucking characters? There's no excuse to be a whiny piece of shit playing only one character
JUST BUFF WII FIT TRAINER
FUCK
>>337965447
Yeah but Ike's not for fags
Remove all guaranteed kill confirms
More hitstun and make it less random too
>>337963473
>>337963493
>>337964836
Pikachu has two bad matchups in Mario and Ness, and an unfavourable matchup with Game and Watch.
How is that not top tier material? Even fucking Cloud has more bad matchups.
>>337965447
literally who got results with Corrin?
>>337965576
remind me of all those good Pikachu players
ESAM doesn't even get high in tourneys any more
>>337964709
I'm running out of Falco images. Someone fight me.
>>337965630
Probably Ryo, who is also the best Ike out there.
ESAM plays Corrin too.
>>337965504
>But Smash 4 legit has close to unwinnable matchups and you always want a secondary
>It's a game with, what? 59 fucking characters? There's no excuse to be a whiny piece of shit playing only one character
Yeah, pretty much. Just so long as your main or secondary isn't Jigglypuff, there's pretty much no combination of 2 characters that means you have an unwinnable matchup against someone else.
And if your main or secondary is Jigglypuff? I feel for you, I really do, but you're obviously not actually playing to win the game so you shouldn't be complaining about matchups at all.
>>337964509
Maybe if you're playing casually with items on, but when people play seriously, optimizing their character will involve removing as much risk out of their play style as mechanically possible. This means play styles that involve staying far away and baiting out moves. Yes everyone says you need to bait with Ganon but's something that 99% of the cast already does. There is no shield pressure in Smash 4 because shields regenerate way too quickly, shield stun is nullified by the amount of recovery that Ganon's own moves have, and heavy attacks on shield push them away too far for any follow ups. You will never catch a good with his slow side-b, and they will also quickly learn how to grab you out of down-b.
DK is comparatively different, he has tools lead into actual rewards. Moves with super armor for zone breaking, forget shield punishing moves he has shield breakers, and a neutral-b that is actually threatening. His one-two punch that pulls opponents towards you, a down-tilt that can trip for big follow ups, and a good grab with equally good followups.
This is the difference between a character that was actually designed versus a character that was just thrown in to fill out the roster.
>>337965864
and he still mainly gets results with Ike
come on
>>337965748
This.
Reminds me of all those people touting Yoshi's good framedata, kill set-ups, etc. Yet Yoshi has essentially no results or players.
>>337965802
Here's your Falco
>>337965976
funny because roy is an easy as hell matchup for falco
>>337965976
DELETE THIS!
>>337966186
Yeah, you go and brag about your handful of good matchups.I miss Brawl/Melee Falco
Just came home, is the patch out?
>>337965953
To be fair, that might just be because people haven't really explored him well enough - a lot of characters are like that. But then you really can't say anything about those characters without some crazy good player playing them - it's like how Duck Hunt has been played to really high levels and is still pretty shit.
Shulk getting buffedA man can dream
>>337966421
Soon
>>337963743
reasonable
fuck off
no
>
also reasonable
his biggest problem is his inability to chase kb
his dash is slow as shit, his air speed is even worse so his effective combo radius is basically a vertical column above him and nothing else while fox can cover half the stage and still confirm a usmash because of his incredibly fast dash speed and his blindingly fast sh
>>337966419
Me too man, me too.
He's still fun in this game, though.
>>337957619
I've slowly come to the realization that I would have preferred tiny Bowser or Squirtle with fire breath and a paintbrush.
>>337965748
Literally every other fighting game (bar MvC) bases their tier lists on Character matchups, not tourney results. Virtua Fighter, Street Fighter, DoA, Soul Calibur, Tekken, etc. Most of the time tourney results don't even fucking factor into the tier list.MvC3 gets a pass since it has +1mil team formations alone, and then the matchups make it even worse. STILL, their tier lists are based on which teams have better matchups against the other most popular ones in the meta, not tourney results.
Smash is the only fucking series that bases their tier lists on Tourney Results. The only fucking one. It's retarded, since it just amounts to a list based on which characters skilled players pick. Does it come close to a matchup based tier list? It can, but that's not guaranteed at all, and it's still not properly reflective of the character balance in the game. AND IT'S NOT EVEN THE WHOLE FUCKING SERIES. 64's tier list is based solely on matchups, not tourney results.
So no, tourney results are a retarded thing to base tier lists on and every other fucking series agrees.
Go ahead and list another bad matchup for Pikachu though. That's actually worth something.
>>337966425
For Yoshi there's The Wall and Raptor and neither really travel that often so it's hard to get a decent read on how well Yoshi really matches up against others.
>>337966697
It's because there's too many characters and matchups are extremely debatable, so no, sorry, your shitty ESAM list where Pikachu beats fucking everyone isn't going to hold up
>>337966636
Yeah, it's really unreasonable to think any of that will happen. As for the unability to chase knockback, I agree with you on that too. I've learned to make up for it by getting good with lasers, but it sucks having to make a hard read to get the combo train going every single stock.
im out of falco images now
>>337966697
>3384 matchups needed to make a tier list
uh yeah, good luck
>>337966697
In melee tournament results also match with positive matchup spread though.
>>337967338
They still manage to change pretty consistently after all these years
Falco and Marth are getting buffed
>>337967425
That because of implementation of new tech.
Things got really shaky when shield dropping became a norm. And it's even being used to its fullest potential yet.
>Falco's Shield Drop Teether Cancelled Back Air Chain
Shit's too hard for a human to perform, it's insane.
>>337967708
20XX soon.
>>337961282
Hi hbox
>>337967708
It's also because of players, though, and their results - Jigglypuff wouldn't be as high without Hungrybox, Peach (probably) not as high without Armada. It's matchups, yes, but also the results.
Considering how much shit is still being found in Smash 4 and how much the meta changes due to new techs, patches, and players, it's impossible to get some "matchup based" tier list like >>337966697 wants
If fucking MELEE is still changing after all this time, a 1,5 year old game with three times the characters is going to be even worse
If only Falco would get buffed I'd be happy with just Dair not being shit anymore.
>yfw they patch in wavedashing due to constant requests for movement options
>>337965930
You definitely make fair points, and I agree that DK is amazing in this game.
>Everyone says you need to bait with ganon
While it is important, I think people use that too much and wind up being a sitting duck. Being an aggressive but attentive ganondorf can pay off as well. Also, when I say shield pressure, I mean nothing comes without sacrifice. If I want to apply it on a good player, I realize it will take some unsafe moves and I will take damage. It usually is worth it for the couple of seconds the player gets anxious and hasty. Of course I understand this conversation can go on and on, but I'm just saying that I believe (in competitive) there are loopholes for every situation (even Ness-Rosa) and if you like a character, you shouldn't give up and just complain about the character needing fixes. There is also an element of surprise when people don't know an obscure match up. Many argue about the effort not being worth it but after seeing players use low tiers and participating in tournaments where players made strategies for those kinds of situations, I believe any character with a hitbox and recovery is viable.
>>337967987
Nah they would never patch wavedashing, but if they added back jumping momentun and universal ledge cancelling I'd be happy enough with that.
>>337967987
Not possible to patch in wavedashing without completely changing the physics of the game from the ground up.
>>337968134
>I believe any character with a hitbox and recovery is viable.
shame ganon only has one of those
>>337968134
>you shouldn't give up and just complain about the character needing fixes
Tell that to Lucina mains.
>>337968364
To be fair there's literally no reason to play Lucina unless you're bad at the game. Marth is flat out better.
>>337967326
>Too many characters, matchups extremely debatable
USFIV had 44 characters, so approximately 1000 matchups, and their tier list is based on matchups, not tourney results.
Melee has 26 characters, so hardly 350 matchups, and their fucking tier list is based on Tourney results.
This screams about the community being lazy, and not that it's "difficult to come to a conclusion"
>>337967067
>3384 matchups needed to make a tier list
SSB4 has 1770 matchups.
You know what, nevermind. Jesus fuck, now I know why you guys focus on tourney results - you're too fucking retarded to even calculate the amount of matchups in the game.
>>337968314
oh shit son
>>337952493
Just make Wario's Fsmash come out a bit faster. It's annoying to easily rack up damage, but then spend god knows how long to land the killing blow.
That goes for other characters like that as well. I don't really play him, but I know Duck Hunt has fuck all for killing options. His smashes even miss half the fuckng time.
>>337968364
>>337968427
Exactly, there's literally zero gameplay reasons to play Lucina over Marth. You either do it to actually disrespect your opponent (HAH IM PLAYING SHITCINA YOU DONT DESERVE MARTH) or because youre a waifufag.
>>337968134
>I believe any character with a hitbox and recovery is viable.
So basically, Ganon, Dr. Mario, and Little Mac are all useless.
>>337958735
His one single obviously telegraphed setup thats gotten continuously nerfed so it rarely even works anymore. Yeah, this garbage character needs a buff.
Has Robin EVER been touched?
>>337968519
There's only a handful of characters that even matter in Melee. Why the fuck is someone going to go through the effort to detail all the intracacies of Pichu's match-ups? Get real, nigger.
>>337968729
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Robin_(SSB4)#Update_history
a lot, actually
>>337968729
Yeah, he got a major change to dthrow back in 1.3(?) Also got some speed increases and I think increased damage on a few aerials.
>>337968729
Pretty sure they've gotten buffs that made them noticeably better, but not enough buffs to be relevant.
>>337968682
At least Dr.Mario and Little Mex have wall jumps. All of them have an UP-B though, so this meme is hilarious. Wait but why does this even matter to me, I am going to keep enjoying those characters while you shitters complain!
>Hoo Haa
>Ding Dong
>Checkmate
>Holy Hoo Haa
>Shell shock
Alright guys who's gonna get the dthrow+uair this time?
>>337969090
>they've
>>337967932
>>337968641
No, it's matchups.
The techniques we "discover" are intrinsic parts of the characters. They were always there, and they always had an effect on the matchup. When we "discover" one and it starts being used, that's when we fucking update the tier list. That's not a reason to completely abandon matchup based tier lists.
Tourneys are good for us to discover new techs, but that doesn't mean we should automatically use them for tier lists. They're good for research and judging player skill, not judging entire tier lists.
>If fucking MELEE is still changing after all this time, a 1,5 year old game with three times the characters is going to be even worse
So? That why we update the tier lists. This problem isn't just relevant to smash, and all the others deal with it by updating the fucking list.
>>337968903
>>337968956
>>337969090
huh. how did i miss these? thanks.
>>337966697
>Literally every other fighting game (bar MvC) bases their tier lists on Character matchups, not tourney results. Virtua Fighter, Street Fighter, DoA, Soul Calibur, Tekken, etc.
Which have the exact same problem: they constantly change around because people don't fucking agree and top players of characters keep changing. There's no objective way to judge "matchup", so every "matchup-based" chart is still going to be heavily based on results.
>>337969187
>every throw combo needs a meme name
>>337968873
>Why the fuck is someone going to go through the effort to detail all the intracacies of Pichu's match-ups?
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_matchup_(SSBM)
They already did. Thrice.
>>337969187
Isn't Checkmate the combo from Elthunder?
>>337968134
>I believe any character with a hitbox and recovery is viable
What wishful thinking, but this is never the case in ANY fighting game.
>>337964305
>He's a selfproclaimed air-fighter but he's completely dogshit at it.
Sounds true to character.
>>337960147
>Rool autists being this rustled
>Still
Your meme croc is Ridley tier.
>>337969271
You don't understand the point - we only KNOW the matchups because of how top players play these characters. "Matchup" and tourney results are intrinsically linked. You were talking about some bullshit inherent "matchup advantage" for Pikachu over most characters which hasn't been proven and probably doesn't exist because we have not seen him play against a lot of top end players playing some characters. It's just theorycrafting. That's not enough.
>>337969145
>>337968134
I'm sorry, I just caught this:
>but I'm just saying that I believe (in competitive) there are loopholes for every situation (even Ness-Rosa)
>loopholes for every situation (even Ness-Rosa)
>Ness-Rosa
This is the single worst matchup in the fucking game. Literally what can a Ness do to an equally skilled Rosa to actually win?
>>337961263
Better approach, which means less lag on all his aerials. They have been doing it constantly for multiple patches, they just need to take the dive and allow him one super quick aerial.
Roy also struggles with killing people, he can kill pretty early, but they can be seen coming from a mile away, so he needs a way to set up some kills.
>>337961263
But a skilled roy can beat any character.
>>337968195
They would just have to add in directional air dodging
>>337969915
Never be off stage without their double jump :^)
>>337969915
The ness would have to get creative. If you have ever seen a random kid show up to a tourney with brand new tech, it would blow your mind. New tech is what keeps these games from becoming stagnant 1 character battles.
>>337957068
>Hopes
MM's Crash Bomb has a shorter detonate time the longer it travels. Rather than waiting to attach to start the timer, timer starts as soon as you input side-b.
Also, increase size of Hard Knuckle hitbox so you can sour with it more. Meteor range is fine, but damn it's all or nothing.
>>337969915
Jiggly/Cloud is worse.
Hopes
>Removal of footstooling
>Dr. Mario's down air becomes a meteor smash, has faster airspeed and run/walk speednerf Super Jump Punch
>Pit/Dark Pit have faster airspeed, neutral aerials connect hits better; Buff Pit's Upperdash Arm because it's a joke now compared to Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm
>Falco can faster run and airspeed, faster Blaster shooting speed, less knockback on up tilt, either make up aerial kill or change its animation so that it doesn't have such a tiny hitbox
>Pac-Man's grab has less frames and modified hitboxes, because if they can buff Lucas's that was already decent they can buff Pac-Man's
>Link/Toon Link's aerial up special has a higher knockback angle
>Mega Man's down special has less startup and ending frames, forward aerial has less ending frames
>Yoshi's Egg Roll has less startup frames and has more knockback
>Ness, Roy and Ryu get a walljump
>Bowser Jr.'s upsmash has a larger hitbox or connects hits better, less charge time on Clown Cannon, has faster airspeed, more damage reduction when taking damage from the Jr. Clown Car's hitbox
>Everyone has more invincibility frames on roll to match Bayonetta's frames with Bat Within, but rolling has more frames total to accommodate (Samus and Yoshi's remain the same)
>Remove Bat Within on Bayonetta's roll, Bayonetta takes longer to be able to react out of Witch Time
>Ganondorf and Captain Falcon don't go into freefall using Raptor Boost/Flame Choke, Falcon Dive/Dark Dive get more knockback
>Luigi has faster airspeed
>Diddy's up special charges faster
>Cloud snaps to ledge with normal up special, limit-break up special has more knockback
>Mr. Game & Watch has faster airspeed
>Samus is heavier, the old neutral aerial comes back, has faster airsp-you know what fuck it
>E V E R Y O N E (except Yoshi lol) gets faster air speed
Expectations/Reality
>Sonic gets insignificantly nerfed again
>Someone makes a mod including all these changes
>>337952493
Not a serious fighting game
>>337969719
>we only KNOW the matchups because of how top players play these characters
We KNOW Sheik has an advantage against Jigglypuff in SSB4. There has NEVER been a top 8 tourney match between the two.
We know this shit because we can straight up analyze frame data and hit/hurtboxes and tell everyone that yeah, Jigglypuff has no way to actually get close to Sheik.
On the other end of the spectrum - it doesn't matter how many Yoshi's may have beaten Kirby's in SB64 Tourneys. Kirby's U-Tilt blocks any and all fucking approaches and attacks from Yoshi, so a perfectly played Kirby is able to 100% wall-out a Yoshi. This is singlehandedly the worst matchup in the series, but you're suggesting that if the majority of Yoshi's had won against the Kirby's, Yoshi should be understood to have the upperhand in the matchup. But no, the actual properties of the characters tells us that Kirby has a ginormous advantage against Yoshi, regardless of Tourney results. Tourney results may or may not reflect this, as that completely depends on player skill and choice, which isn't a factor that can be controlled for.
>>337970541
>>Removal of footstooling
What the fuck?
>>337958814
I'm proud of you for asking this question, anon.
>>337970268
>get creative and use something no one else has ever thought of
No you fucker, actually list something that's fucking useable. You can't just fucking say "well no one's ever thought of it but it's out there".
>>337970541
>remove one the few advanced mechanics in the game that allow for hard to do advanced combo extensions
The fuck is wrong with you?
>>337970434
Very arguable, since if Jiggly DOES get in she can kill with Rest (which "outprioritizes" Finishing Touch).
If Ness gets in there's still literally nothing he can fucking do.
>>337970541
>removal of footstooling
And stopped reading
>>337952493
I hope Bayonetta gets nerfed.
>can combo the fuck out of people in the air
>better evasion
>that counter that lets them use a fully charged smash on you
>that spiking with ease from the edge
The one thing shes got going against her is shes easy to launch, but its not enough...
Fix shulk and puff
>>337970963
>check out my Japanese footstool Vine combo video!
>>337970268
>get creative
That's your argument?
That every character stands a chance against everyone else, you just have to use your imagination?
I guess it's summer all year round now.
>>337970920
If Ganon gets in a reverse Warlock punch he'll win too.
>>337971035
I only footstool in doubles, but shit's amazing for 0-to-death 2v1 combos.
Too bad you can't footstool save your teammate anymore tho.
>>337960147
Not before the fix the bug that added Sonic instead of Snake
>>337970781
>>337970664
>>337970963
>/v/ likes footstooling
nevermind, I'll discuss this with other people
>>337971035
>checkout my greentext!
>>337971278
Okay, I did. Now what?
>>337970541
>Nerf Super Jump Punch
For what purpose, that's one of Doc's best combo enders and kill moves. Why the fuck do you want to nerf that?
>>337971217
>hating on one of the few ATs in a game void of tech
>posting Based Axe with such a dumb statement
No.
>>337971126
I know that's supposed to be stupid and sarcastic, but Ness has NOTHING he can ever do against Rosalina. Even Ganon's Reverse-B against Cloud, Sheik, and Rosa is more viable than Ness doing anything.
>>337971319
You tell me, that was basically your argument.
>>337971434
My argument is footstools have done essentially nothing for anyone except Abadongo and his Mewtwo.
>>337954754
why did he even put falco in the game if he was gonna make him so bad.
>>337970654
>but you're suggesting that if the majority of Yoshi's had won against the Kirby's, Yoshi should be understood to have the upperhand in the matchup
Obviously it's a two-way street: if the matchups for a character are better against some character, they'll also win more. Your scenario is one that would never happen because the Kirby/Yoshi matchup is so skewed, and you can't assume everyone is just not trying. You're still going to easily see from tourney results that hey, Kirby has a shit matchup against Yoshi.
For reference, here's an actual matchup chart based on top players shit:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oPi5NCZ5itHncCiNhUFpM3R_gPJNBQUYAA-VXH_U_Kc/edit#gid=0
Now, you'll notice that except for the fact that there's so much clearly wrong with this (Ryu has 17 losing matchups?) and some characters (lol Pika) get favoured heavily, it also has matchups that are X/Y won but Y/X won again. That's because this shit is subjective and pretty undoable. So how do you solve that bias? You use tourney results, because they're actually objective in how that character performs.
Seriously, how do you think these matchup charts come into being for any game at all? Just people labbing it out, character by character, through thousands of combinations?
>>337961468
That Megaman is the worst thing I've ever seen.
>>337971331
This fucking image makes me so mad
>>337971507
And iStudying's greninja, or the millions of team combos in doubles done by a shitton of people.
>>337971698
>doubles
wew
>>337971217
At least say what the fuck you think is wrong with it
>>337970541
>Remooval of footstooling
Are you the Ike in this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80RzZwpUuzA
>>337971507
If they do nothing for anyone, why take them out? Your argument basically amounts to "I don't like the thing" without providing actual evidence that proves that footstooling deserves to be removed.
>>337971507
And Greninja, and Ike,and Ryu, any character with reliable jab locks, and gimping others recovey.
>>337971507
And Ike, and Greninja, and Villager, and Pac-Man, and BoJu, and Megaman, and I don't know who the fuck else, probably everyone in the game has something
You're an idiot.
>>337971982
>but guys, my Japanese footstool vine combos that don't work on living human beings!
>>337972042
You're still not giving evidence for why footstools should be removed, you're just shitposting about footstools
Just dumpster Cloud and Bayo, that's all. I am so sick of seeing those faggotd in 50% of my matches. Cloud is a much better version of Shulk and Ike, he renders those characters useless. Also his limit break is a superior version of Little Mac's meter considering he keeps it until he dies and he can build it up while he's not fighting.
He isn't THAT bad to fight against but I pretty much don't even touch this game anymore because almost every FG match is against a Cloud player- I don't know if it's just people playing the FotM or weeb FF7 fans (probably a mixture I'd assume). I thought it was bad months ago when everyone was playing Sheik but at least Sheik isn't easy to play very well and even then I only ran into Sheik maybe once every 10 games.
Also lovely how these characters are DLC, totally not P2W, right? (I own all the DLC characters but this is bullshit for people that don't own the DLC).
>>337972042
What? Almost all of those work and have worked on human beings
Like even look at some dumb FG video like >>337971740 posted and you'll see a few
>>337952493
>huge shield-stun formula change
Double of zero is still zero.
>>337971663
And why is that anon?
>>337972289
There's more shieldstun in smash 4 than in melee by the way. And shields in 4 have less HP too.
The real culprit here is that shields regen 4 times faster.
>>337971982
Even motherfucking Dedede can do it and extend combos with it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1KbemYMPVc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-R8I4cWjjg&spfreload=10
>>337957619
>only 1 reliable kill move
Dsmash is reliable too you fuck
>>337963159
>>337963374
get raped
>>337972429
More like shields degen slower.
>>337972429
Shieldstun doesn't matter when there's still endlag out the ass. The only thing that patch did is make sure that short-range characters can never be top tier, the two outliers of course also being the two fastest.
>>337972654
>raped
>>337971331
I don't mean it in a bad way. I guess you could say it's more of an inside joke with my friends. When I play Dr. Mario, I mash the shit out of Up B when i'm in trouble so if I'm in an infinite jab I get several hits in, when I'm about to get grabbed and I Up B they get sent flying without seeing even the animation. It's just really really funny that there's a 3 frame kill move on Dr. Mario and I've won a small local tournament with its help.
>>337971735
>Want to do an up special or up aerial from fast-falling above someone, footstool before doing it by accident and leave myself open
>Completely halts the momentum of someone that is getting launched!
>Unable to do any attacks while falling after getting footstooled in the air so going offstage for a kill gets me killed at low percent because they were mashing jump
>Unable to tech while falling after getting footstooled in the air
>Zero Suit Samus can footstool her partner with friendly fire off using Down Special
I've seen A LOT of stupid shit related to footstooling when playing 2v2.
>>337971203
he's not coming back anon
this pain is ours, and no one else's.
>>337955546
Literally this
>>337973694
All of those are completely your fault and can be stopped by getting better at the game or not damaging at all (not being able to tech is what makes it such an interesting combo tool). Turn tap jump off if it's happening so much to you.
>WiiU Patch file is 61 MB
>3DS is a whooping 325 MB
What is Nintendo planning here?
>>337974217
3DS getting all the Wii U stages and vice versa would do that
get hype
>>337972323
the reboot
>>337974217
probably updating some bugged stage or something
>>337974419
If that was the case the WiiU one would be gigantic.
NEW THREAD
>>337974505
>>337974489
wouldn't the 3ds stages take less space in general than the wii u ones
either way, i'm kidding
>>337959672
Samus tourneyfag here. Every move that uses her feet extends her hurtbox about 2-3 frames before the moves hitbox comes out, same as her grab. She's also still got a busted Up Special with clanking armor/iframes and her Up Smash is legit trash. She's otherwise a decent mid tier especially with the projectile buff, but the issues she has are major problems, not the minor gripes that the last patch fixed.
>>337974084
>Footstooling completely halting the momentum of someone that is getting launched is my own fault if I'm launching them because I should've known my partner was going to accidentally save them with a footstool when trying to double jump and I should get better at the game
>Zero Suit Samus footstooling her partner with friendly fire off is my own fault because I should've known she had tap jump off when I'm launching her partner and I should get better at the game
You have problems reading my friend.
>>337974741
If your partner is "accidentally" footstooling them he's not paying attention. I don't know about that ZSS shit, but who the fuck cares about friendly fire off doubles? There's a billion retarded things you can do there which make it a gimmicky as fuck gamemode.
>>337974741
I should've known she had tap jump on*
I have problems typing my friend
>>337974217Wolf is coming back
>Start playing Smash again a few days ago
>Record some dank replays
>another patch shows up
yeah you can go fuck yourself too Sakurai.
>>337963159
Where's the Smash 4 framedata?
>>337975063
so why aren't you recording that shit right now
I'm gonna play Melee like a real man. Fuck this waifushit dlc garbage.
>>337952493
So this happening tomorrow or so?
>>337975182
No one cares about shaky 3DS footage, I kept the replays for myself and to brag to friends.
>>337975117
Should be up on smashboards in the individual character sections
>>337975310
so turn off the 3ds internet, show them to your friends, update after
>>337974643
I can't play samus in sm4sh anymore, when they give her more than one decent kill move that isn't her charge shot, I can actually play her
>>337975117
http://smashboards.com/search/2877727/
its not all done yet and the program still cant do certain things (notably rendering hitboxes bound to article bones) but its getting there
>>337952493
>Nintendo even went out of the way to specifically state that it is a balance patch, and a fucking big one too!
And where did they do that? The link only shows the typical "gameplay balancing" message for 1.1.6.
>>337974643
You left out the most ridiculous thing which is that Super Missiles don't KO until over 200
fucking SUPER MISSILES
>>337970758
Well since there isn't a limit to effort, it's never impossible for the ness to win. If the ness plays similarly to mac, in other words keeps a lot of pressure on stage and uses mainly aerials and non projectile attacks, he could win.
>>337971101
>XD SUMMER MEEME
Yeah look who's talking, your claiming that creativity can't make the difference between a brain dead player and a strategist player who actually puts effort into something instead of arguing impossibility over the internet. Pro tip, one gets stuff done, the other not so much.
>>337974643
So do you think she can be fixed with patches or is she a lost cause.
She's my favorite to play by far but I hate how bad she is in regards to most of the cast
>>337975836
id be fine with that if they had like no endlag
but they have endlag equivalent to the charge shot without any of the power and a retarded launch angle
>>337975414
Same tourneyfag here, Bair is a good kill move and FSmash, Nair and UpB are all decent, just situational. Samus can barely if ever kill on stage, but her from behind potential and off stage game are both disturbing, the problem is her mediocre neutral and specials. She's got a lot of tools, they just happen to be mostly worse then top tier/high tier tools. Her UAir and Bair are still two of the strongest mid tier moves in the game though.
>>337975836
The super missiles deal 10% damage and about 14-17% shield damage. Considering they come out 2 frames faster now I'm happy with them. Are they stupid good like pikachu cloud and shiek projectiles? No. Are they good like Tink projectiles? No. Are they decent? Yes. The real offender is the homing missiles. They are true garbage.
>>337975963
Remove the hitbox extender from pre patch Samus and she would easily be mid tier. Remove it from post patch Samus and she becomes high mid tier. Give her better missiles/chargeshot on top of that? B tier easy. She already is fast with insane recovery options, good air to air trades, and a shield break combo and guaranteed 0-death out of shield break with a good OoS option(UpB oos) she also has really good aerial cancels. I should put a name real quick.
>>337974972
He's accidentally footstooling them because footstooling uses the same input as jumping which is the reason it is stupid. You don't understand because you only play 1v1. Smash Bros is fun for more than 2 players too and footstooling always fucks everything up when everyone clustered together on the stage. When the developers balance the game they are also balancing the game for Free-For-All settings.
And if you want your "advanced techniques" go play a fighting game because jumping on someone head and forward tilting or jabbing for an inescapable combo is retarded and that is something that they would patch out because it's not the style of gameplay that is intended. If you like inflatable bouncy house combos in your gameplay, I recommend some of the recent Tekken games.
>>337961440
>implying he's a clone
>>337974419
>3DS getting all the Wii U stages and vice versa
PLEASE.
ZELDA
BUFFS
WHEN
>>337974419
>>337977725
>implying the 3DS could handle Great Cave Offensive and both temples.
>>337977094
Yes, making footstools untechable, jab-lockable, recovery-killing was all unintentional and "not intended". Get the fuck out. If you only play the game casually footstools don't even have enough of an impact on the game at all to really stop your enjoyment at any point.
The only reason you ever accidentally footstool is by double jumping unless you're actually inputting shit wrong (and have tap jump on). If we're balancing the game around people not realizing what's happening or being bad at the game we'd be here all year.
Just because you don't like a technique doesn't mean it suddenly doesn't add to the game. I don't like the awkward way L-cancelling and teching works but you can't deny it adds depth.
>>337977936
>implying 3DS wouldn't get "gimped" versions like its Gaur Plains that's actually a reasonable size and doesn't have Metal Face
I just want my main back.
>>337977094
Toodstooling barely effects FFA cause its just a casual random button mash fest.
>>337952796
Your lack of skill does not reflect the metagame
>>337977817
Last patch was great what are on about?
>Took away RC grab a long time ago
>Give it back to her just in sliding shield grab version
Honestly her normals are ok. Make her jab come out on frame 7, give fair and bair a autocancel window larger then one 1 frame, and be able to store the phantom knights like how samus can store the charge shots. Thats it really.
You can't change much else without completely overhauling a la Project M and ironically screwing over the few zelda mains who actually like her.
>>337974217
due to how poorly their update system on 3ds is it effectively downloads everything previous patches contained every time
>>337974217
>this image is 209 KB
What is the source here?
>>337971735
Not him but it prevented me from getting so many kills in Classic mode
>>337977971
Not being able to do any inputs after being footstooled was intended and it's stupid, but sure let's go with it.
Being able to hit someone lying on the ground 3 times before forcing standing wakeup on them was intended but it's alright because that's a precautionary measure to prevent infinites.
Both of them together, footstooling an opponent and being able to hit them while they are lying on the ground without any way to defend and chaining more attacks and footstools after that has to be unintended and is extremely stupid considering the type of game this is.
Looking at that new Beefy Smash Doods video about footstooling shows a lot of ways it can be abused and implemented into combos because you can't tech while lying down from strong attacks and aren't getting knocked away from weaker attacks. Captain Falcon footstooling into down air on a grounded opponent multiple times into a kill with forward air using from 40% is going to get patched out one way or another, because Sakurai doesn't want great players slaughtering unskilled players in that fashion.
>>337981786
>Trying to do Cruel Smash when the Mii Fighters keep mashing jump in the air since they don't use specials
Hold the phone.
You mean to say SSB4 actually has mods? Both versions or WiiU?
>>337982717
3DS has a few things but all the good shit is on Wii U afaik.
>>337982717
At the moment on Wii U most people are making textures for character models because they are amateurs, keep checking here for good stuff though because people are getting into it http://gamebanana.com/games/5547
>>337952493
Hope Bayonetta gets a buff.
>>337983026
>uncensored bayonetta
>showing off the goods
>people don't like the mystery
>>337975947
We're talking equally skilled and creative players here, not the world's best Ness vs a braindead Rosalina.
Also
>Uses mainly aerial attacks
Ness doesn't have a single aerial attack that can outreach Rosalina's F-Tilt, and Rosa's U-Air beats Ness's D-Air 100% of the time.
Seriously now, if we're considering two players on equal footing (which is the only thing you should be considering when you're looking at matchups) what can Ness ACTUALLY do to a Rosalina?
You can't just say "get creative" because the same can be applied to the Rosalina. Give us a hard strat that Ness can use to even fight Rosalina. "Use aerials" would actually be ok if Ness's aerials were good, but they can't touch her.
>>337959672
There's a hurt box at the end of her leg in most of tilts that always makes her get hit in this game and her tilts are unsafe on shield.
>>337959152
Meh over exaggerated as a good character back then. He wasn't really.
>>337983948
>her tilts are unsafe on shield
That's the big thing.
Every other character in the game barring Zelda and Bayonetta have at least one move that's safe on Shield (usually D-Tilt). Even G-Man's F-Tilt causes so much stun it's safe.
Samus really wants a Shield safe move.
>>337984345
The only safe one is Jab 1
