Fuck flying. Fuck LFD/R discussion and realm merges.
..What else would you fix?
>>337597907
Flying is fine. I loved playing in TBC and seeing shitters somehow not able to make 5,000g for their epic flying.
>..What else would you fix?
-Less linear zones
-Make leveling more challenging (even the lead game designer admitted it sucks the way it is now)
-Bring back tiered progression, i.e. no raid equivalent gear from 5 mans allowing you to jump straight to the latest tier
-Only one difficulty mode for raids, this would also fix the item level inflation
>>337598873
Leveling should be removed.
>>337598873
I forgot, bring back class quests with cool rewards (Quel'Serrar, Rhok'Delar, Benediction/Anathema etc)
>>337598934
No, I used to like leveling. Now it's just a dull bumrush experience if you can call it even that.
Basically just release Vanilla servers. Every change I'd make to the game to fix it would essentially be reverting it to Vanilla anyway.
>>337599018
>I used to like leveling. Now it's just a dull bumrush experience
Maybe because you've played it on 15 toons.
Flying is fun tho
Rehaul the races class eligibility.
No gnome warriors, no tauren monks, no worgan death knights, no more "well this class has feet so i guess they can be a rogue" bullshit.
>But I already have a max leveled character with that class and race
Enjoy the free race change fám
DARK NIGHTS
I'D PREFER EVEN DARKER THAN VANILLA
AND STRONGER BEASTS AT NIGHT WITH BETTER LOOT.
The genre is completely and utterly destroyed at this point.
Nothing can be done to fix it at this point.
>Remove heirlooms
>Make dungeons hard again
>Make world dangerous again
>Make questing an actual part of the game again
>No flying, at all, anywhere
Make leveling not just a wall between you and the real game.
encourage people to talk each other and form groups, I'm tired of people who join a group and then leave after first wipe
>>337599092
>Maybe because you've played it on 15 toons.
Not the guy are you replying to but nah, I maxed out almost every class on retail.
I started on a private server and none of that boredom from questing/leveling is there, its just been a fucking blast.
>>337599092
I still go into a private TBC server to level some class to 70 just because I like it. On retail it's simply ass.
>>337599163
Never going to happen. There shouldn't be race exclusive class combos anyway.
>>337599092
>toons
>>337597907
-Very limited welfare gear, just enough to hit entry level end game content and the rest is drops/ arena rewards.
-Servers locked to each expansion as well as progression servers that unlock each xpac after certain conditions are met
-Make leveling more challenging and entertaining, back when I quit in Cataclysm I managed to get a character to max level in about 8 hours. My first vanilla character was something like 35 days played to hit 60, and that was far more enjoyable.
-encourage social interaction through small party buffs, increased drop rates, or something along those lines during leveling
-remove lfr/lfd. I'm not opposed to fast travel to dungeons and raids (because a 15+ minute trip both ways is mind numbingly boring) but joining a queue and being psuedo afk while playing just isn't the way to have a healthy community
An MMO is, by definition, a massive multiplayer online game. If you don't play to that potential strength of the genre you lose social capital that would otherwise maintain a playerbase far more efficiently than any other feature.
>>337599724
>everyone should be able to do everything!
you're part of the problem
>>337599724
>There shouldn't be race exclusive class combos anyway
Nah fuck off idiot, you're part of the reason WoW is shit now.
>>337599817
>>337599942
Class and race combos aren't impactful gameplay options.
How about we stop making Themepark MMOs like WoW and go back to Sandbox MMOs like FFXI and SWG did so much better?
The Themepark design WoW made popular is flawed at its core design. Content is cleared faster than it can be made, there's no incentive to group up outside of instances because 90% of the quests are soloable, and there's no real danger in the world unless you play on a gank heavy PVP server.
>>337599989
>gnomes should be able to roll warrior!
>night elves should be able to roll mage!
>undead should be able to roll hunter!
it's about lore and consistency
>>337599817
What impact does it have on you? It doesn't, you're just autistic. They killed the concept of race/class uniqueness because it was shit for game balance and progression. One alliance race getting Fear Ward at release and Horde was S.O.L with meme tier options like hex of weakness. Devouring Plague was awesome, though.
>>337599942
>Bloo bloo bloo
kill yourself
>>337599989
So what? The reason the limits were there in the first place was because things like Night Elf mages made no fucking sense for the story and therefore by not allowing players to play that class/race combo they were sticking to the established story.
I guess that doesn't matter too much now with the story being absolutely garbage though.
>>337600174
Gnome have always been able to be warriors, moron.
>>337598014
Well, it depends. It's an inherent handicap to world PvP and exploration, no one in their right mind would argue against that, but the extent of this handicap is up to debate and TBC had a multitude of mitigating designs, ranging from fast flying being actually prestigious while 60% standard flying speed was an incentive to use ground mount to little details like mount cast time being twice as long as in WotLK and beyond (which made escaping that much more difficult, and reduced the time people spend flying because it's not worth it to mount up to travel over short distances). Ultimately, it wasn't too much different from having no flying in the game: PvP hotspots like instance entrances and farming locations (be it Tyr's Hand or Skettis) were still there so you only really lost assaulting travelling players (and people with 60% flyer might have opted to use ground mount anyway) and 100% ground mount was a rather safe method of transportation to begin with (not everyone is a mage capable of blinking in and dismounting you with polymorph).
So yes, I agree it really isn't flying in itself that's bad and to large extent other individually bad designs cause the undesirable effects often attributed to flying. Consider this for example: Why would you actually go anywhere and risk being attacked in WotLK (and beyond)? Not only is there far fewer desirable craftables, there's even considerations like Wintergrasp Revenants being the best mobs to farm for eternals, and since the faction not controlling WG doesn't even see them, enemies have absolutely no reason to get in your way and spark a conflict. Compare that to areas like Elemental Plateu and Skettis that were PvP hotspots.
>>337599942
This guy is right, the rest of you are fucking stupid.
>>337600358
>muh lore characters
Nobody cares about this except autists. More choices are more fun.
>>337600352
>because it was shit for game balance
>Thinking having every class being a boring, homogenized piece of shit is better than the slight imbalanced of the past
Like I said you're part of the problem, fuck off back to the WoW forums if you want an insular circlejerk you shiteating fucker.
>>337600064
>Sandbox MMOs like FFXI
You're joking, right?
>>337597907
>split dev's into 2 teams
>A team manages new style of servers that lack some old "features"
>B team manages the "concentration servers"
>people like >>337598014 go there
>you can fly with your expensive mount there
>you can collect your pokemons and buy more from the store
>you can do the same daily quests every day
>more garrison missions
>improved AH interface so you can make gold and buy all your gear without ever leaving town
this may seem like some retarded joke to you but there are a lot of players who enjoy these things. I don't want to play with them, I don't want to see them, I DON'T WANT THESE FILTHY CASUALS TO TOUCH ME.
>>337600581
>More choice in race/class combos
>Homogenization
That's the opposite of that you dumb faggot. Race choices has nothing to do with class design.
>fuck off back to the WoW forums if you want an insular circlejerk you shiteating fucker.
oh the ironing
>>337600456
they shouldn't have been able to, that's my point
>>337600617
No.
You can't refute any of my post so why cherrypick?
>>337600578
>Taking a gigantic shit on all the backstory established in all of the RTS games is good! You're just autistic!
Once a game ceases to follow its own internal logic it becomes a stupid, shallow, hollow mess.
>>337600737
Yeah I guess picking up a sword is a really complicated task.
>>337599642
How can you possibly like old 1-70 leveling?
Like are you literally brain damaged?
Is your nostalgia that powerful?
>>337599812
>Make leveling more challenging and entertaining, back when I quit in Cataclysm I managed to get a character to max level in about 8 hours. My first vanilla character was something like 35 days played to hit 60, and that was far more enjoyable.
Oh my god people who post this are retarded
Of course the first time you played the game it was great..
>>337600578
The availability of class/race cominations play their part in the general integrity of the game world/setting and there's also another side to this: fewer options gives the ones that are there more character and makes them feel more unique.
can someone please tell me why FFXIV is a bad game? My TbC WoW friends are recommending to me.
>>337600803
FFXI isn't a sandbox, dumbass.
>>337600850
>Story can't ever evolve.
>I don't like how the story changed, therefor it's shit and anyone who disagrees with me should leave the board.
>>337600698
>Having every race be able to be every class isn't homogenization
Maybe check a dictionary, champ. I know big words are hard sometimes but the internet is a pretty powerful learning tool.
>>337597907
NO RESILIENCE
NO ARENA
NO LINEAR DUNGEONS
NO RATED BG
MAKE PVP REACTION BASED LIKE BEFORE
MAKE PEOPLE ABLE TO BE 1 SHOT.
FUCK ANYONE WHO DISAGREES.
TO SURVIVE DONT BE A RETARD AND RUN INTO ENEMIES
>>337600960
Why isn't it?
Doing the 7 day return thing just to see what wow is like now. Haven't played since wotlk.
What's a good pvp server?
>>337600862
For a 2' scrawny midget yea, being effective through strength shouldn't be possible.
>>337601005
>Diversity is homogenization
Take your own advice.
>>337601004
>Giving a flimsy, off-handed excuse as to why this race suddenly starts behaving in a way that goes against all of the established story is somehow an "evolution" of the story
The game is pretty much fucked beyond saving.
Questing/leveling characters is a long, brain dead bore that teaches absolutely nothing about how to play your class since all you do is spam one or two abilities to one shot everything.
PvP is just fucked.
End game content is pretty shit. The raids are designed well enough, but only one of them is relevant content now and who the fuck wants to do four different difficulties of the same raid?
Honestly Legion looks okay but it can't save WoW. Either they release legacy servers, or they fire a huge chunk of the current dev team but neither of those will ever happen because Blizzard is stubborn and retarded.
>Still caring about WoW in 2016
Is there a video game drug that's more intense than WoW? You would have to be a fool to still think a 11 years old depreciated game is still worth playing.
>>337600952
It's worth getting and capping, but the endgame content is sparse.
>>337601094
>everything becoming similar is diversity
>>337601090
Emerald Dream or Tich if you like WPvP
>>337600952
It's actually pretty decent when it comes to PVE but a big joke when it comes to PVP.
Go play on Gilgamesh or Chocobo server, shit is more packed than WoW's top NA realm arm.
>>337600952
I have very limited experience, but the japanese style flashiness and loading screens everywhere turned me off the game pretty damn fast.
>>337600952
It's just boring. It's an ok game for a year or so but you'll realize pretty quickly that you're doing the -exact- same thing every day and nothing will change in the future.
Here's what I did in 2.0:
An extremely easy dungeon over and over to cap for the week
Raided the 4 boss raid
Here's what I did in 3.0 before quitting:
An extremely easy dungeon over and over to cap for the week
Raided the 4 boss raid
Every time they release a new type of content like Hunts or Diadem it quickly becomes irrelevant and forgotten. (Though in the case of Diadem that was probably a good thing because it was FUCKING AWFUL). Also every other patch is dedicated almost entirely to casual content where they show how much better raid design could be if they made the hardcore content 24 man instead of 8 man.
>>337601050
Because it has almost no aspects of sandbox design. None of the content is player generated. You go to place X and do thing Y because that's what the developers want you to do. The only thing that isn't strict like that is levelling/job points/etc. Is it less theme park-y than WoW? Sure. That doesn't make it a sandbox.
I bet if it had quest markers no one would consider it a sandbox mmo.
>>337597907
flying is ok
remove LFD/LFG in its current form
do proper realm merges
remove the dungeon finder. i figure it'd weed out all the casuals that don't know how to navigate dungeons if they legit had to travel to it from wherever they were instead of just porting there instantly. god knows i took my time in my respective class when I knew i'd only get like one chance an hour to do that shit.
Why do people think that gameplay where you grind mobs for 200 hours to get to max level is effective gameplay in 2016?
That doesn't work anymore, that has 0 appeal to anyone outside of children. Even children aren't that stupid anymore.
Many of you forgot how young you were 11 years ago and how stupid.
There are things WoW can do to make the game better. But low quality grind gameplay is not one of them.
>>337601872
>WPvP being entirely dead for the sake of minor convenience is ok
GET FUCKED RETAILKEKS
>>337600862
>Class entirely based around athleticism and physical strength
>The 3ft meme race is a perfect fit
Ok.
>>337597907
>Fuck flying.
Hey I got an idea! Let's not let anyone fly any more and keep those hard earned winged mounts everyone got on the ground! That will make people happy.
>>337601959
Many people don't find the game to be a grind like you do. Many people actually enjoy playing the game and are ecstatic about the fact that there's 100s of hours of content worth doing. If you don't enjoy the game, maybe try something different like Call of Duty or a mobile game.
>>337602287
Many people also suffer from autism and nostalgiafagging
>>337601872
I never liked flying in wow. It only makes you to ignore most of the environment.
Aside from other obvious things:
- Humanoid mobs run away when they get low
- Taunt is melee range and threat is harder for tanks to acquire, especially in AoE situations
- AoE healing is more difficult/limited
- Self healing for tanks and DPS is more limited
>>337600876
You need to stop assuming it's just nostalgia and attempt to counter the argument with something other than a strawman. With each successive expansion leveling became more streamlined. The game has become a rush to max level to go sit in a hub city and queue for things, and unless Blizzard does something to change that their subscriber base is going to continue to dwindle.
>>337598014
i think a high population TBC server without any flying mounts would be a really interesting experiment. hard to imagine what the world pvp would be like.
>>337602263
>hard earned
is it really that important that you're able to swim through the air though? like what do you really gain from it?
>>337602383
>Many people also suffer from autism and nostalgiafagging
Way more than the group of people afflicted with whatever impairment allows them to still play WoD
>>337602134
Gnomes made terrible warriors stat wise, until they were well geared some mobs could straight up 1v1 them. That being said, they should still be allowed to try, since being a warrior is just picking up a sword and hitting something with it lore-wise. It's not like druid or paladin where there are reasons why some races can't be them.
MMOs like Vanilla WoW are for autists who have no fufillment in their life and need something to spend thousands of hours upon.
Enjoy your High Warlord or Naxx40 consumable grind.
>>337600850
>story/lore defines a game
>not gameplay
>>337602660
It's almost like people have lives outside of video games and the vast majority of people grew up and left the basement.
>realm merges and lfd are bad
Oh boy, I sure love waiting fucking 90 minutes to find a dungeon group that disbands immediately if i'm not in a super active guild
>>337602483
rip in piece content that requires flying mounts
>>337602707
>Enjoy your High Warlord or Naxx40 consumable grind
will do bud, thanks for the well wishes. enjoy legion :^]
>>337602780
Because fuck quality of life improvements in a game right?
>>337600952
>very little quest variety
>the main story quest is long as fuck and makes alts a pain
>leveling any job after your first is boring as fuck especially when you run out of quests and have to spam FATEs and dungeons nonstop
>leveling crafting is boring as fuck
>leveling gathering is so fucking boring that I refuse to believe anyone actually does it and doesn't just bot
>game can be played almost entirely solo besides the occasional party finder queue when a quest wants you to do a dungeon
>very little content of interest for non raiders
Then there's the usual stuff like heavy content padding and cancerous playerbase
I like the style and story and such but I'd probably wait a few patches before ever resubbing
>>337600064
This. Make gear break and give players something more to farm than rep and achievements.
>merge the dead realms
>figure out some way to incentivise balanced servers
>heavily restrict flying
>remove literally all cross-realm functionalities
>keep LFD and BG queues
>remove LFR
>remove, or at least lessen, catchup mechanics
>drop the "no player left behind" model
>>337602472
> Taunt is melee range and threat is harder for tanks to acquire, especially in AoE situations
A better solution would be if Mobs have certain abilities that forces you to use CC like in Magisters' Terrace.
But it's important that every dps spec has a cc skill so we don't have the same problem like black patch 2.4
>>337602526
What exactly do people see in the cash shop mounts? They look pretty gaudy and I remember when the Celestial Steed came out it crashed the servers because everyone was trying to buy one.
>people still give a shit about this 10 year old game
grow up
>>337600581
>>337601005
Races aren't gameplay.
>>337602754
You're right, you had to spend 20 hours a day to even play Vanilla World of Warcraft and humanity as a whole underwent such a massive collective evolution in 10 years that they're completely immune to basic psychological manipulation and wellmade skinnerboxes.
>>337602828
spend 5 minutes in the map editor drag-n-dropping bridges and leveling out the land
>>337602660
WoD spike shows WoW still garners interest, Garrisons and a genuine lack of content ruined it though.
Also if you sold the OG Mario today, a simple 2D platformer, would it be a huge hit?
No of course not.
Wow is competing in a completely different market today.
Now if other MMOs were doing better than it, that would mean something, but it's still the king pin of MMOs.
WoW needs to move towards more interesting real content even faster if it wants to stay relevant.
>>337602134
>>337602670
Gnomes are described as being exceptionally strong for their size and one of the most agile races on Azeroth. It's not the ideal class for a gnome but their stature never stopped them from being competent warriors.
Also, have stats ever mattered past like, level 5? The difference is so slight it might as well not even be there
>>337603291
>WoD spike shows WoW still garners interest
You mean nostalgia, hence the huge dropoff after the first month
>>337602526
I get to where I want to go faster with out having to wade through bullshit.
For instance
>starting tanaan jungle
>Trying to find rare mobs
>Have to wade through packs of enemies just to get where I want to go
>Super dense jungle with tight clusters of enemies everywhere
>Have to either kill them all or hope to run through them with out being dismounted
>Find out the rare is up a mount somewhere that I have to back track all the way and figure out where it is
>This is somehow fun
>>337602479
Except most players have played the same leveling experience on repeat for every character they make. Levels aren't inherently fun. It's nothing more than playing in zones and doing quests, which is perfectly fine without an XP bar, and even better without the reduced class design.
>>337603291
>Also if you sold the OG Mario today, a simple 2D platformer, would it be a huge hit?
But if you sold a game that was based heavily on the original mario games and called it something like "NEW Super Mario Bros" or something like that I bet it'd do pretty well.
>>337601090
realmpop.com
>>337603398
>having to play the game and navigate the world is tedious
try a different genre
make levelling take some actual effort, it's depressing being able to pull basically everything in leash range in every levelling zone on cloth wearers
also make it so you don't outlevel zones 1/4 of the way into their quests (sometimes less) and remove heirlooms because they killed any form of non-level cap world pvp/queued pvp
also unfuck the level progression because it makes zero sense for anyone new
>>337603119
The age of the average gamer has gone up.
You know what generation is the current largest in America? Fucking 20+. The generation that grew up playing Vanilla WoW doesn't have time for Vanilla gameplay.
>they're completely immune to basic psychological manipulation and wellmade skinnerboxes.
This generation has been raised differently. Think about how quickly people change.
Look at how computing has changed since the iPhone/iPad came out? A huge shift to mobile and a different way of living for everyone, even older people, and we're never going backwards.
There are different games out, there are amazing games out now, competition is completely different.
What the fuck did we play in 2004 online vs what do people play now?
>>337597907
>we live in the timeline where Blizzard decided to cater to casuals
>>337602958
I agree, but I think those are two different things. The melee range/threat reduction solution is for how easy it is to recover from a fuck up. Requiring CC is for reducing damage that is too high to tank/preventing special abilities.
I was an enhance shaman in BC, so I feel that.
>>337603597
I don't mind having to do it sometimes, but it DOES get tedious when you have to do it for the 50th time that week.
consider the following
vanilla wow did certain things well and other things poorly
modern wow does certain things well and other things poorly
I came back for the free WoD + 7 days. Draenor questing was great with all the treasures and little details. Garrisons are the single most fucking retarded thing ever implemented.
What are my chances of getting 30 days gametime from a GM if I just straight up ask for it? I'll mention how I'm thinking of coming back for Legion. Should I make up some issue and casually throw in some reference to gametime or something?
>>337603651
Mobile gaming is popular because it's fucking always there.
Everything else is the same.
>>337603651
>You know what generation is the current largest in America? Fucking 20+.
The average age of WoW players in 2005 was 28
>>337602134
Gnomes have incredible bone density and muscle mass despite their small stature
>>337603395
The person who made that graph is a retard.
WoW doesn't do monthly sub numbers lol.
They do quarterly at the earliest during their financial reports. They might have waited for fiscal half this past expansion I don't remember exactly.
>>337603292
The difference was fairly noticeable in Vanilla actually, more so than I thought. A level 10-15 Gnome Warrior is a lot weaker compared to an Orc or Tauren or something. That's 8-10 fucking strength, which is pretty big. I doubt it would mean that much in the later levels, but it's still there.Too bad it doesn't matter at all in modern WoW since you just one shot everything until max level.
>>337603395
>New expansion
>nostalgia
Please look up the definition of the words before you use them.
>>337604079
He's talking about how hard WoD was being sold to people who wanted TBC again
Remove the following
>Cross Realm anything/LFR
>Arenas
>Catch Up mechanics
>Any self sustaining farm (garrisons)
>Heirlooms
Bring Back the following
>Attunements
>New dungeon releases throughout the expac
>Reputation gear that will still be at least somewhat viable by the time you reach the required rep
>>337600669
the team is fucking pathetic at this point and can't make an instance in less than a year
>>337602526
flying mounts should only be usable in capitals since they are literally just for epeen
>>337603625
this image is amusing but would be better with actual time-spans
in game lore, vanilla to wod is like 30 years worth of time
>>337603291
One thing that Legion will improve wow is that you have waaaaayyy more content outside of raiding.
Since Wotlk this was always a huge problem of Wow(special in WoD).
>>337603784
The problem with the aggro mechanic was if you had a tank with medicore equipment you couldn't do anything expect waiting until Omen told you that the threat was low enough so you can do damage again.
>>337602828
imagine tempest keep with a narrow bridge made out of light connecting the ships with nether storm. no railings to keep people from falling down into the nether. entire raids would have to team up to try and push past the enemy faction holding the entrance.
>>337602780
>something no post says
Rehashing the same non-argument on what fixes the game isn't particularly helpful.
>>337603651
>The generation that grew up playing Vanilla WoW doesn't have time for Vanilla gameplay.
You have this idea bouncing around your head that Vanilla WoW was this lifelong 24/7 commitment that occupied your every waking moment from sun up to sun down and it's entirely fucking retarded.
>What the fuck did we play in 2004 online vs what do people play now?
What the fuck did people play 20 years before 2004? Super Mario, Donkey Kong, Pong, or they went outside and played stickball. By some miracle World of Warcraft still managed to get as big as it did decades later. Humanity is still what it was when Vanilla WoW came out, and a lot of people would still enjoy it.
>>337597907
At this point I would wipe everything off the table and start from scratch. I mean with a role playing game you don't just keep it going for over a decade to the point that it becomes so bloated and ridiculous it makes no sense anymore, you start a new campaign. Let people keep their characters / achievements and it's still called World of Warcraft, but roll back levels and stats, and lorewise it's a fresh start
>>337603796
Stop being an idiot then? You should of had avania's feather and some goblin gliders. That opens up some shortcutting.
If you kept your eyes open there were purple glowing treasure chests for the corrupted shards. You could of also realm hopped for rare hunting it's eaiser than roaming the map.
Not to mention just being in a group for higher tag results.
Fucking idiots who do things the hard way and then cry about it.
>>337599163
>no worgen death knights
Nothing wrong with this, though.
>>337604263
Yeah, hell, maybe even roll back a few expansions... something like a "classic" server... hmm...
>>337604032
Sounds pretty off for a hyper-intelligent magic-oriented race. You got a source on that bud?
>>337599163
Worgen DKs at least make some sense considering Arugal's involvement in Northrend. You're right on the rest though.
>>337604251
Yeah a very small vocal minority. And they won't even be satisfied with Vanilla servers.
>>337597907
My DK got forced off his PvP server, he was alliance on Stormreaver though
it was like 80/20 horde/ally so that saved me 20 bucks though the timeless isle was really interesting when literally anyone could gangfuck me out of no where and I was a slow ass dk with no pvp gear
I can't wait to play this game again when legions out desu, looks like fun regardless what braindead hiveminders on /v/ will spout
>>337602670
>It's not like druid or paladin where there are reasons why some races can't be them.
I mean the logic behind a strength based Warrior/Fighter class in any game is "okay I may not have magic or divine powers but I do have big muscles and a big dick so fight me fgt". Considering a male gnome has the same athletic capabilities of a 13 year old child, just seems far fetched they'd be able to hold their own physically against an opponent bigger than them.
It's been the time to do it for years now.
Being able to queue into anything, at any time without anything other than a class, spec and iLvl is what really did it for me.
Goodbye Stormreaver Horde, we had some great times.
>>337604473
thanks for the insight nostradamus
>>337604539
That'll show them! Grats!
>>337603921
I haven't subbed in over a year and had them give me 7 days on two occasions, 5 days on one, and 2 days that just ran out. I was actually just dicking around on leve 1s because Legion alpha sparked my interest, when I noticed some of my heirlooms were missing and called them because ticket queues were 24+ hr wait time. They just straight up added 2 days to my account without me even asking so I could log in and flag my heirlooms.
I doubt you'll get 30 days, but 7 should be e z. Say what you will about WoW being shit, but after playing FFXIV for a while with their shitty non-existent support, I was amazed I could call and talk to a live person in 3 minutes and have my in game issue resolved on the spot. Great customer service.
>>337604207
Yeah Legion actually looks really good, I'm most excited about that whole zone they have dedicated to lore, it looks really nice.
>>337604251
You think the gaming industry hasn't substantially changed in the past decade? And the competitive forces around it!?
Dude look at retailers a decade ago. Look at retailers now, absolutely destroyed by Amazon.
Huge market shifts do happen in rather short periods of time. Maybe it's because this is my livelihood as a consultant I take this stuff very seriously, but you underestimate how much things can change.
There is no point in debating with you any further if you cannot accept this.
>>337604592
Any time nostalgia fag
>>337603625
Leveling never took any effort, leveling was a breeze on Nost because I'm not 12 anymore and I'm not dumping all of my points into garbage stats.
>>337603398
The problem there is not enough reward for fighting through the mobs. Either the gameplay isn't fulfilling or the general rewards are basically non-existent, caused by there being both no consequences for having to respawn, and there being no way to upgrade / advance gear progression except raiding.
>>337604539
>Stormreaver Horde
what was your name senpai?
>>337604370
Gilneas/Worgan story arch in WoW starts after the Lich King is dead. Who's making them deathknights, Bolvar?
>>337597907
Fix itemization. Make it so that there is still a reason to do old raids after the new tier comes out, and drastically tone down catch-up gear. This is the single biggest flaw in WoW.
>>337604712
it's far easier now though
you can honestly pull an entire zone in whatever you've gotten from your quests with pretty much no issues if you have any aoe for nearly all of 1-100 except for the occaisonal rare thrown around outlands 2.0
>>337603398
I never liked timeless isle but compared to tanaan jungle it is sooo much better.
Flying is great, if you want it removed you can give me back the hundreds of thousands of gold + time spent getting mounts and rep and I'll never fly again.
>>337604937
The official story Blizzard went with is they're reanimated Worgen made by Arugal when they brought his spirit there for shenanigans during Wrath, so technically they make some sense.
>>337597907
If we're talking about what I'd fix about modern WoW, then it's hard to say since there's really too many things that need fixing, but simply can't be. If they made dungeons and leveling longer/harder people will complain. If LFR/G is removed people will complain about that too. You can't really take out things like that after you added them so long ago, adding things like that for convenience was innocent enough, but removing them would be purely to make things more inconvenient.
One of the only things I'd want changed about Vanilla is for them to fix the classes and make it so some specific specs aren't completely awful at everything. It doesn't have to be perfectly balanced, but there's nothing fun about not being able to play what you want to because your favorite spec is literally useless.
>>337605010
But your point wasn't "it's easier now" it was "make it take effort AGAIN" when it NEVER took effort.
>>337605010
And that's a problem why?
>>337604685
Retailers aren't gameplay and psychological standards, which WoW now does very little to appeal to.
>>337605137
Oh it took effort, it was just the bad effort where you had to drink/eat after every pull and had to kill 1000x more mobs
>>337604263
>just dropping vanilla and all the xpacs of content
What an idea.
>>337604539
>>337604764
So how often did you actually see alliance, I was alliance and I only knew of a single guild that was alive at the time
Server was dead for ally during SoO MoP and only a little better at WoD launch
Plenty of horde though, thats for sure
>>337604764
You first
>>337604207
I don't really see why that's a problem. In any case, I don't think single target threat should take a big hit. Mostly I'm talking about AoE threat and the ability to recover from anyone pulling instantly.
>>337605250
That's not effort, that's inconvenience.
>>337605010
During the legion stream on twitch Blizzard said that they want to fix it in the future with scaling like in Legion. I hope that we will be able to reach level 100 only with azeroth zones(when its done....)
I remember being so burned out on questing during BC that I listened to music playlists and grinded on those owlhawk mobs in Nagrand for hours to level alts.
>>337597907
nothing
the game is perfect which is why everyone that was a dick left because they couldn't find any decent trolling material.
>>337605250
>and had to kill 1000x more mobs
And not because they gave less xp (they do but still); you had to kill a million and one mobs because quest item drop rates were abysmally fucking low. You could kill raptors in the Barrens for hours and only have six of the twelve teeth you needed for your quest.
And then when you finished getting them all, the next quest in the chain is to go and kill more raptors.
>fly around for 3 and a half hours looking for Netherdrake eggs
>find zero
>people actually want to return to this era of the game's history
>>337605284
I played Alliance. I was an officer in <hi> if that's the guild you're talking about.
>>337605289
Lyons in Wrath
Dig in Cata
Bruise in MoP/WoD
>>337605284
Actual SR Alliance? Hardly never. We were pretty abusive to them in MoP and they never really recovered. Like they would try and kill you in front of Firelands entrance or at FPs but I never saw them do anything other than raid TB a few times.
>>337605137
>make levelling take some actual effort
you're putting words in my mouth, don't do that.
>>337605165
it might as well not exist if the first week or more of any new player's experience with the game is quite literally facerolling through all content given with zero challenge provided
i'm sure it's fine if you're levelling your 10th alt to max out their garrison too, but for anyone who isn't it's largely uninteresting outside of the occaisonal fun storyline because nothing takes any effort
>>337605136
>removing them would be purely to make things more inconvenient
That's not logical. Removing them is to increase population density in specific areas and develop socialization in an MMO.
>>337601764
>Though in the case of Diadem that was probably a good thing because it was FUCKING AWFUL
I hate this.
Diadem had so much potential to be something like sky or dynamis but nope, they made it as bad as they possibly could.
>>337597907
garrisons were a really bad move imo. too much micromanagement later on, and too good rewards to just pass it up.
daily quests and boring shit like that needs to be removed. daily heroics can stay because they are very good at giving you a feel for how much your equipment has improved.
fucking remove catch-up gear. I have no idea why they thought it was a good idea to remove a clear progression line. go to 100, farm some equipment in normal dungeons. go to heroics, farm some equipment. alongside that get some equipment from the open world or whatever (awesome addition btw). slowly be good enough to do good dps or tanking or healing in the first raid. farm until you have a good set of "first raid" equipment. continue with raid 2. imo with all the grinding from vanilla etc removed, this would be pretty awesome. I have no idea why they removed it, guess people are 2 much shitters.
can keep lfr but just make it normal difficulty with the same lockout system lfr has now.
>>337601091
>muh realism in a fantasy world
It's not against the lore, just against your view faggot.
>>337605579
>An optional quest for an optional faction that gives optional purely cosmetic mounts is bad
>>337601246
Activision-blizzard*
>>337604385
Do you play the fucking game at all ? They're, like the dwarfs, tied to the titans.
>>337605601
Unfamilliar. I was Modulation for a long time, Gob Sham (ret.)
>>337605786
Garrisons were a problem because they completely fucked off professions
>>337605786
>fucking remove catch-up gear
No, fuck that. Vanilla's linear progression is what made it so goddamn unbearable, having to do simple, boring ass Molten Core 30+ times to be able to get enough gear to move up to the next tier was why the raiding was so goddamn abysmal.
>Scrap WoW
>Release progression servers that move from patch 1.0 to the final patch of WoW at relatively the same pace with the droughts fixed
>Create Warcraft 4
>Start from where WoW would have started, completely retcon it
People actually hate gnome warriors?
Are you so edgy you have to hate on a little midget lady with green pigtails taking giant fists to the face?
>>337606034
Nah keep retail, there needs to be a filter for all the stupid baby faggots who'd just endlessly complain about shit.
>>337603014
T W E N T Y F I V E U S D
And they sold 3 million dollars worth on the first day;_;
>>337606123
/v/ hates anything that's fun. /v/ doesn't actually play games, they just sit here and complain about them.
>>337600876
the actual quest design and stuff has gotten much better in modern wow vs vanilla.
but they completely trivialized it. it's literally impossible to die, or even go oom or low health and have to drink or something. there are no special challenges while leveling up, and there are no power curves because you literally 3 shot everything in basic gear with every class. I literally ask myself "why do I even have to do this?" when leveling up. Just give me a 30 min movie that shows me the story and give me a level 100 char, and I will have missed nothing.
>>337606185
That sounds like everyone who has ever played WoW ever.
>>337605991
>don't make me play the game!
>that'd be fucking gay!
and here we are
>>337606243
epic meme bro.
You know what I really want from MMOs?
Vast worlds. And I mean HUGE. Even if they are empty. I want that feeling of being lost or having to carefully think about where I have to go and how far I can adventure, or that tense moment when you face someone else and are far away from everyone.
The only MMO which comes even remotely close to that feeling is EVE online, and that's just because making huge swats of empty space is easy.
>>337602526
> we will never add cash shop
oh blizz of 2006, so naive
>>337599724
Nah, I'd go a step further: all main classes open to each race unless it makes zero sense (tauren rogue for example), and then a hero class exclusive to each race.
>>337601004
of course stories can evolve, they just shouldn't evolve into shit which is what happened in the warcraft universe.
>>337606317
I don't disagree, but the people still playing retail today are a refined version of it.
>>337606192
>This video is 6 years old...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVal6o6bzZ8
>>337606324
No, don't make me play the same 100% unchanged fucking raid tier 40 times to completion just to move to the next tier which I'll have to play 40 times to completion, 100% unchanged, just to move to the next tier. Especially when the mechanics are as retarded and simple as Vanilla.
>>337599724
Alliance is approximately 75% human on many servers. This is the future you wanted.
>>337603446
>Pssst! Hey kid, want some darkness?
>provide actual criticisms of the game based on a scientific theory of the four keys of fun
>forums torn between agreeing and disagreeing based on the upvote-downvote ratio
>thread is deleted, I'm suspended for "trolling"
Why save it? S'cool
>>337606353
closest thing i can think of is those giant minecraft servers with multiple communities and built cities and stuff like that
>>337606185
Sounds more like legacy servers to be honest.
>>337606526
and 24% night elves!
>>337606472
This is unfortunately very accurate.
>>337606480
>you are now condemned to spell out URLS with your corpse
kek
>>337597907
>realm merges
Literally not a problem if you play on a populated realm. Sorry you're retarded and don't research your servers.
>>337606526
What was their racial that replaced the PvP trinket? That's why. I came back to the game and immediately rolled Human for PvP purposes.
>>337606591
>the four keys of fun
Which are?
>>337606353
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzTYvEBsghc
huge world huh?
>>337606520
so instead you just want to do the latest available raid an endless amount of times?
there's no way around your problem actually. if you want diversity they should do that stuff by splitting bosses into different raids instead of one huge raid like hellfire citadel.
the linear progression is clearly superior because it means you don't get everything handed to you.
>>337606596
That's pretty much the same thing that came to mind while typing that post, which is sad. I might have to try one though, especially if they have dungeon/rpg mods and aren't autistic about building shit.
>>337606760
http://www.nicolelazzaro.com/the4-keys-to-fun/
>>337606520
>don't make me play the game dude!
>that'd be fucking gay!
and here we are
>>337606737
>90% faction prevalence
![20876d1214251150-die-heissesten-gamebabes-night_elf_babe[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/9MZZy1o.jpg "20876d1214251150-die-heissesten-gamebabes-night elf babe[1]")
>>337606648
For a good reason!
>>337606520
after tier 1 people only did MC for alts and legendaries, it wasn't required at all
>>337606764
Azeroth is roughly the size of Manhattan someone figured out
>>337606770
By having different difficulties which is why they introduced the system.
>>337606863
So you're capitulating the argument? The point isn't that I don't want to play the game, the point is I don't want to have to sit there doing the in-game equivalent of watching paint dry for 2 weeks.
>>337606929
Yes, after they got geared from running MC over and over because you couldn't do Tier 2 until you got exclusively geared from Tier 1. Then you had to run Tier 2 by itself over and over and over with zero change if you ever wanted to do Tier 3.
>>337606740
And considering how humans can be a billion classes, everyone else did it too. Some even paid money to change races. That's not okay.
>>337604209
I want this.
>>337597907
Never release anything wow related after the movie and the next expansion. Just fucking let it die.
>>337606596
I wish I knew how to find good servers - only fun I had in minecraft what with 4chan servers - huge communities and actual fun.
>>337606764
I don't get it. That is pretty big. And it's only one continent out of what, 7 now with legion?
>>337607220
>stop making 500 million dollars annually because I personally don't want to play the game
lol
>>337607090
>playing world of warcraft is like watching paint dry to me!
>instead of finding a different game like a well adjusted human being, i'll work to make this game objectively shit!
and here we are
>>337606764
If only I didn't know Azeroth like the back of my hand by now.
>>337607473
>repeating the same exact content is compelling
t. false flagging
>>337606731
I miss when gold farmers were creative.
>>337607539
what the hell do you think people have been doing the past year in live wow? the difference between the old system and this one is at least you'll go through a bunch of raids instead of raiding the last one for a year and a half until the next expansion
>>337607326
It's not as big as you might think because actually crossing those distances takes almost no time. There are portals and flying mounts and a billion other ways to zip around. Distance means nothing in wow.
>>337607539
skipping right to the final tier and doing exclusively that instead isn't repetitive?
>>337607750
b-but MYTHIC!
>>337607750
there is balance and nuance dammit you guys need to chill the hell out.
>>337607713
Just because there's easy ways to get around doesn't mean it isn't big. At least it's not like TES where you just click on a location and your there.
I recently just quested through the game again (zero dungeons or looms, just quests) and the zones felt as big as ever.
>>337607090
you could completely skip MC with crafting and ZG shortly after tier 2, how is that not a catchup mechanism?
you're literally arguing for the one relevant raid per year system we have now
>>337607831
>tfw you realize that blizzard unironically spends their time designing each raid and its loot tables 4 separate times so that every fuckhead on the retard spectrum is equally represented
>>337607368
I meant its going progressively to worse. I know they still make money with it, but as a player thats my honest opinion.
They removed the social aspect pretty much completely with garrisons, just hang there and thats all there. Once a week a raid, and thats the only time you really need to talk to someone, maybe even then you dont need if you just lfr as a dps.
>>337608087
Yeah man, that's why Legion will have a focus on world quests and class halls so at the very least you can chill with your fellow class-bros
They get garrisons were a failure.
I think..
>>337608062
Can't have another XT-Deconstructor on our hands, can we?
>>337607870
Vanilla's system was objectively the most varied. It also had the most substance and made you play the game the longest. Because it took much more time and effort, it felt more rewarding to finally catch up.
You're literally shitting on good game design and fun gameplay because you personally don't enjoy playing the game, and you want to play it as little as humanly possible, but you keep playing the game for some odd reason. It's literally a mental illness that you suffer from.
>>337608339
We can always hope they get it, but its blizzard so im not hoping too much. i mean, it would be great if it goes better with the Legion but to be honest, i think it will be the same as with MoP. Item squish at first, after that on every patch it goes downhill again.
>>337602483
>hard to imagine what the world pvp would be like.
Pretty easy to figure that out, Epic Mounts killed World PvP long before Flying was even a twinkle in a dev's eye and BGs buried it deep.
Anyone blaming World PvP on Flying didn't play Vanilla in any meaningful capacity, and their opinions on Vanilla concepts and gameplay are therefore ignorable.
>>337599163
>Rehaul the races class eligibility.
Hey, that's a good idea, anon!
>BY ADDING MORE RESTRICTIONS
oh no you're retarded
>>337608783
>Epic Mounts killed World PvP
the shit you people come up with
>>337607684
I don't play retail WoW, but difficulty levels are 100% objectively more different than doing the same raid 40 times.
>>337607750
You can't skip to the final tier, the point isn't doing raids over and over it's doing the EXACT SAME raid over and over with no change in mechanics or difficulty.
>>337608087
>they removed the social aspect
No they didn't, you just stopped being social because you weren't forced to. Nothing was stopping you talking to people. This is why people idolize Vanilla, people mistake being forced to say LF 1 TANK FOR MC PLS RESPOND in /1 as socializing.
Flying is bad because there is no restriction on it, and it's so god damn much faster than ground mounts that it made them useless.
It's already too late to remove flying completely -- especially with how casual the WoW team is that they put in ridiculous shit like those gliders which rendered it pointless -- but restrictions can still be placed on the feature. I'll greentext the restrictions I'd put on it:
>much slower, 200% speed max
>affected by weather and particular zones that either significantly slow flying (down to 60% speed), or prevent flying completely
>can't go as high, you shouldn't be able to be more than 50 yards from the ground, a player should be able to hit you if they reach a sweet spot (some zones would have beneficial "updraft" affects that would allow you to fly a little bit higher and carry you up giant cliffsides)
>being hit should automatically dismount, almost how it is with ground mounts, this would also prevent remounting on a flying mount for at least a minute
That's the basics of what I'd do to it, this would promote usage of ground mounts in combat heavy zones while still maintaining the benefits of flying over low level zones.
>>337608783
>Epic Mounts killed World PvP
???
>>337600174
>Doesn't like Nelf Mages and Undead Hunters
>BECAUSE OF LORE
Are you fucking retarded? Nelf Mages existed even in Vanilla as an NPC faction and the LEADER OF THE FUCKING FORSAKEN SINCE BEFORE WOW LAUNCHED is a Hunter
>>337608925
>the point isn't doing raids over and over it's doing the EXACT SAME raid over and over with no change in mechanics or difficulty.
But you don't do the exact same raids over and over, you do MC/Ony, and then BWL/ZG, and then AQ20/AQ40, and then Naxx. Each tier represents a different difficulty level and each raid has different mechanics.
>>337608995
>Nelf Mages existed even in Vanilla as an NPC faction
Yeah and guess what? They were fucking banished from the rest of Nelf society, which, spoiler, is what your character is a part of. Is that really hard to understand?
As for the UD hunter shit I'm not that guy and I don't particularly have a problem with it but the Nelf mage shit was unforgiveable.
>>337597907
>..What else would you fix?
no tab targeting. You swing your sword you hit the mob. Add more maneuverability features. No more GCD.
hate me.
>>337609182
>Yeah and guess what? They were fucking banished from the rest of Nelf society, which, spoiler, is what your character is a part of. Is that really hard to understand?
Hm, I see, so if a race/class isn't part of normal society, it shouldn't be played?
I think I understand now, Anon. I'll let THE ENTIRE WARLOCK CLASS know. And all the Male Nelf non-casters, since WoW takes place post-shattering. You know, Dwarf Paladins and Priests don't make any sense either, the Titans have no relation to the Light, Dwarves who worship the light must surely be outside societal norms and therefore not options as well.
Oh.. Oh wait.. Maybe you meant maybe the Warcraft lore is pretty bad, has always been pretty bad, and using it as justification for gameplay impact is even worse? Maybe you were just using a negative example to prove your point. Yeah, that's way more likely than someone actually trying to use Lore as an argument when they don't actually understand the lore.
>>337609407
What you want is WoW 2 with modern dynamic combat systems.
Which isn't a bad idea, but they aren't going to do it until WoW is well past ded.
>>337599642
you're autistic
>>337609504
All the shit you listed was also stupid. I fail to see how I apparently don't "understand" the lore when I'm complaining about Nelf mages just because I didn't mention every other lore class/race lore fuckup. I think that's what they call a strawman?
>>337609587
>Which isn't a bad idea
It's a pretty bad idea, WoW and the various games that have tried to kill it have basically shown that WoW is about the level of engagement Casual players can deal with. Aiming any higher in terms of engagement in moment-to-moment gameplay just gets your game killed on the launchpad.
>>337609715
>I fail to see how I apparently don't "understand" the lore when I'm complaining about Nelf mages
Well, see, Nelf Mages make sense, and you would understand that if you had any grasp of the lore of Nelves at all, in any capacity, period.
"It's outside of social norms, therefore it shouldn't be allowed" is the most retarded argument for race/class combos that can possible be found.
>>337609716
The games that tried it were soulless garbage.
If anyone can make it work, it's Blizzard.
>>337609504
>Hm, I see, so if a race/class isn't part of normal society, it shouldn't be played?
Not if the starting zone for the race in the dead center of that society
>I think I understand now, Anon. I'll let THE ENTIRE WARLOCK CLASS know.
Warlocks and the use of shadow magic wasn't forbidden from any society that uses it.
>And all the Male Nelf non-casters, since WoW takes place post-shattering.
Male Nelfs were never restricted from taking on physical roles.
>ou know, Dwarf Paladins and Priests don't make any sense either, the Titans have no relation to the Light, Dwarves who worship the light must surely be outside societal norms and therefore not options as well.
1. Holy Magic wasn't banished from Ironforge.
2. Humans are also direct descendants of the Titans and the founder of the Silver Hand was a Human.
>Oh.. Oh wait.. Maybe you meant maybe the Warcraft lore is pretty bad, has always been pretty bad, and using it as justification for gameplay impact is even worse?
Fucking with the lore due to laziness and muh class/race inclusion is what turned the lore from decent to inconsistent shit.
You're entirely fucking retarded bud.
>>337609884
I am fully aware that High Elves were Night Elves, stop being a patronizing piece of shit, especially when you're claiming to know more about me when it's bad lore according to you.
The problem is the High Elves were banished and the reason they gave for Night Elves to start accepting mages back into their society boiled down to "Oh no, Deathwing is fucking us up, we need mages!" which is the flimsiest piece of shit excuse to allow a class/race combo ever.
>>337609716
>game is exact copy of another game but worse
>the challenge level must be the problem
>>337608883
>Playing a Tauren rogue should be FINE
>Theres nothing wrong with ORC PALADINS BLIZZARD
>Why can't my human be a DEMON HUNTER MOOOM
(you)
>>337608384
>Making a Skinner box where it takes hundreds of hours to get anything done and to squeeze as much subscription money out of the consumer is good game design
it's shit game design and its goal is to fatten up blizzards wallet with the least amount of development effort possible
>>337610587
>it's shit game design and its goal is to fatten up blizzards wallet with the least amount of development effort possible
>He says as he plays his 1 (ONE) raid patch in the entire expansion for over a year
>>337610587
No, making a game that's worth playing that has enough content to last past the first month is good game design.
>it's shit game design and its goal is to fatten up blizzards wallet with the least amount of development effort possible
What's WoD then?
>>337610775
You can finish most of vanilla WoWs meaningful content in one month if you follow level guides, play a non shitty spec, and use addons
>>337611080
>You can finish most of vanilla WoWs meaningful content in one month
You can finish WoD's in under 24 hours because they changed the game to appeal to people like you.
Any Online game is shit if the community is awful.
Any huge game is shit if the world's just a hurdle.
Any action(ish) RPG is poor if number mean drastically more than skill.
Garrisons now give substantially less rewards or require much more work to remain productive.
Guilds, on the other hand, can have a Guild Garrison that needs to be maintained with constant influxes of quests, gold, and work, for a much better payoff.
LFG can only be used when already in a dungeon with at least 3 players in the party.
LFR can only be used while already in raids, with at least 5/15/25 members in the raid.
The easy/shmedium/medium/actual raid difficulties are gone. You've got Normal and Heroic, with Heroic being much tougher, but with bosses dropping more loot for faster progression. LFR is only for filling slots, not Pugging a raid.
At least one 40-man raid per expansion.
Flying mounts now all have the ability to dismount other mounts that are flagged for PvP, and spawn a parachute is you dismount in the air, of your own volition.
Max flying speed is reduced to 60/140%.
Max ground mouth speed is 110%.
Ranged mobs on the ground aggressively target low-flying mounts.
More quests that require players on the ground for a set amount of time, be it defending objects, or participating in battle with NPCs instead of just watching them fight.
More reasons to tour the old areas, whether it be resource nodes, quests, or dungeons in the old world.
Lots of rare mobs that actually take 3-5 players to kill, to encourage grouping.
Scale back item levels heartily, as well as HP/MP gained as you level up.
Remove resilience; simply reduce damage done to other players by a small amount.
Take hints from Vanilla/TBC/Ulduar raid boss designs, with generous helpings of FF XIV.
Tanking and spanking should never have to last more than 30 seconds per phase. Multiple targets, incoming attacks, and positioning play a greater role.
Remove Blood Elves and Worgen.
And Blizzard will never do any of it.
>>337611280
You can't clear any of the Heroic or Mythic tiers in 24 hours.
>>337611080
I thought you had to run each raid 40 times to progress to the next tier? How do go through that many weekly lockouts in a month?
>>337611545
>M-Muh mythic!!
>>337611280
I don't even play WoW anymore so I couldn't care less about WoD.
But I fucking hate faggots who try to praise Vanilla WoW's crack addict skinner box design as being good.
>>337611545
Just like you couldn't go from level 1 to killing C'thun or Kel'Thuzad in a month.
>>337611581
>this content isn't meaningful because it doesn't suit my narrative
I said Heroic and Mythic, but you can't complete or even start any of the Heroic tiers in that time frame.
>>337611639
I'm not the guy talking about clearing Vanilla in one month, I'm pretty sure that's observably untrue. I just don't get why people are making things up about WoD when there are dozens of legitimate gripes to have with it.
>>337611610
>But I fucking hate faggots who try to praise Vanilla WoW's crack addict skinner box design as being good.
Vanilla was really fun and enjoyable. If that's what the game's design yielded, then something was done right.
>>337611876
Vanilla was fun because it was 90% of /v/'s first real MMO
>>337611779
>I just don't get why people are making things up about WoD when there are dozens of legitimate gripes to have with it
So the speed of progression in WoD isn't a legitimate gripe for you?
>>337611639
Yes, after everyone figured everything out which took literal years.
>>337612004
I played Runescape and Guild Wars 1 before I played WoW. Plenty of people migrated from older MMOs like DAoC and EQ and enjoyed it. Maybe it was just a decent MMO?
>>337612016
No, because Heroic is gated by skill which is exactly what it should be. I don't care what the average WoW player is doing, if Blizzard makes the barrier of entry for PvP lower but keep the ceiling the same height then why would I, as a good player, care?
I feel like people are doing raiding for the jerk off factor and not because they enjoy it.
>>337600064
>>337600064
>>337600064
>>337600064
This.
Themepark MMOs are the cancer that ultimately killed the genre. Nothing to do once you exhaust the content the developers made. Hence why everyone is trashing on WoD now because it's a small Themepark.
>>337612228
You're missing the point and going off on a tangent. We're talking about how long it takes to get from level 1 to "finishing" the content and your original argument was somehow trying to make out that WoD didn't take a pathetically short amount of time to blast through all the relevant content.
Also on a side note;
>as a good player
>In WoD
Protip; There aren't any real "good" players left in WoW. You may be at the top of the shit mountain but it's still a mountain of shit.
>>337612508
It's impossible to be "good" in WoW. Gear and spec weighs a lot more than actual player skill. You could steamroll PvE and PVP in Vanilla with one button rotation macros on some classes.
>>337612694
>It's impossible to be "good" in WoW
>>337612508
WoD didn't take a pathetically short amount of time to blast through all the relevant content, though. You can't blast through the Heroic tier of even one raid tier in a short amount of time starting as a fresh 90.
>you can't be good anymore
Why? Because you personally don't like the game anymore? Do you have any points with weight or are poo poo analogies the depth of your ability to communicate?
>>337612694
>Anyone steamrolling AQ40 or Naxx
What? I'll concede that tier 1/2 stuff was mostly fairly straight forward but post tier 2? Nah, shit was pretty hard and you definitely had to be good.
>>337612820
He's right though. When you remove all agency and choice you're left with little more than a button masher for droolers.
>>337612841
>WoD didn't take a pathetically short amount of time to blast through all the relevant content, though.
relative to how long it took to clear content in vanilla/bc, yes it did anon
>>337612889
Naxx and AQ40 had high gear requirements to survive tankbusters and meet enrage checks, you hardly needed skill to mash decurse or use a one button max DPS rotation macro on Hunter.
>>337612902
WoW has plenty of agency and choice, only someone who's never PvPd or performed at an above average level in PvE would think that
>>337613062
Got any hard numbers to back that up?
>>337613190
Well yeah obviously hunters were fucking braindead, I'm not arguing against that, but you can't seriously suggest to me that all of tier 2.5/3 was nothing but a massive gearcheck.
>>337613216
Maybe back in vanilla.
>>337611434
>Any Online game is shit if the community is awful
The community has basically nothing to do with enjoying WoW. This is and always would be a dumb excuse.
>>337613365
It was 80% gear check and 20% following a Simon Says game pattern. Item levels weighed a lot more than actually playing your class correctly.
>>337613362
So you don't? Sub numbers falling has nothing to do with the time it took to clear content, it has to do with the quality of the content.
>>337613238
>>337613594
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/837529-Top-30-Bosses-that-stayed-unkilled-the-longest
>>337613472
>community has nothing to do with enjoying an MMO
>>337613652
>List made on 2011-01-24
>last edited 2011-01-24
Are you just finding the first link that looks like it supports your argument without actually reading it? lol
>>337613872
I did actually yes because the futility of arguing with someone as deluded as you is boring.
Google a more recent list and you'll see WoD content is still no way near Vanilla/BC completion times.
>>337613841
What's the argument? Law of large numbers suggests it's exactly the same as any other community.
>>337613472
>Buy and enjoy TF2
>Good games everywhere, people actually play the game with the intention of winning the match
>The game goes free2play
>suddenly it's a hugbox of BRs and furfaggots that "just want to have fun" but sitting in spawn and shooting the wall for 50 minutes straight while trying to climb a vertical pole by hopping off a dispenser repeatedly
>killing the community is good for games though
>WoW was a popular game with tightly knit servers and drama
>activision opens the floodgates by killing by crossing realms, making it far easier to play and "succeed," enables solo play and so on
>the game goes to complete demonstrable shit
>killing the community is good for the game somehow
>>337613872
I don't even play WoD and I know that mythic raids these days are cleared in a week or two.
Here's a video for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYXMIti8aQw
- Remove Garrions/Garrison "order halls"
- Remove flying
- Remove all cross realm features
- Mass server merges
- Tune low level shit to make it much harder
- Make CC actually necessary again
There. I just fixed almost all of WoW's problems.
>>337614235
>XIV 1.0 had such a tight community that they payed for an admitted alpha-version of the game simply to fund 2.0
>Yoshi P. stabs the community in the back and makes a WoW clone
>The game fails so hard they're too embarrassed to even utter their subscriber numbers ever
>killing the community is somehow good for games
>>337614235
Except it's not like that in TF2. What a strawman.
Crossing realms, a far easier game, enabling solo play, and so on aren't the community. It's the development.
>>337614167
>a genre based on social interaction
>quality of the people you play with and your interactions is irrelevant
>>337614468
Except the problem with content being completed much faster than it can be produced manually
>>337613472
You must have been the struggling pleb standing under the gods who had T2 - 3 gear outside the AH in Ironforge and couldn't get into a decent guild because you were a whiny bitch.
Community made WoW famous, it was a sort of early social media platform, and it stood that way till the end of TBC when they added the LFG function, and started catering to single player solo content and freebies. I was there, I know, I saw the downfall.
>>337614571
SE has never talked about subscriber numbers except on a few occasions.
XIV is currently doing better than WoW in terms of western subscribers. 90% of WoW subscribers right now are Chinese and Korean, and they don't use an actual subscription model.
>>337614624
Gameplay.
>>337614167
Nigga, we're on a single website and each board behaves differently.
/gif/ is full of saucefags, /b/ is 13 years old, /mlp/ wants marshmellow buttholes, /vg/ wants to be a tripfag circlejerk, /pol/ is one constant racewar, ect.
Groups of people are different depending on a number of factors. Tribes in the Amazon aren't taking selfies.
>>337597907
>What else would you fix?
I would shut that piece of shit game down and execute all you drains on society
>>337614575
>what a strawman
The truth isn't a strawman. I played TF2 for hundreds of hours before it went free to play and as soon as the F2P floodgates opened every server I joined was a casual shitfest.
Crossing realms kills the server's community because you no longer are competing against players on your own server. Instead you're competing against players you'll never, ever see again.
Making the game easy enough for complete retards to get to end game kills the community because nobody wants to play with retards except other retards. This also applies to solo play.
>>337614782
>XIV is doing great guys I swear hahah
>We won't tell you how many subs we have to prove it though.
Nah fuck off yoshi shill.
>>337614571
1.0 failed pretty hard but the reboot single handily put Square Enix in the green zone for profits. If it was doing bad, they would have went F2P years ago like 1.0 did and never release an expansion or plan another one.
>>337614946
edgy
>>337614041
Yeah but what does a list made by one person have to do with anything? Why is there no hard data supporting your argument?
>>337614315
See, this is a more pertinent video. The only thing is that you're comparing raids done by 10/11 year veterans of the game to people that literally just started playing the game. Nost had raids cleared incredibly fast because the content itself isn't hard, it was the gating and the unfamiliarity with a system/lesser prevalence of information on the net (what with WoWhead and other such services being far more common now). Do I wish we could go back to the time where the data wasn't run through super intelligent simulation programs? Absolutely, but I don't get why people are so invested in something they obviously dislike so much. I play an expansion for a month or two and then come back intermittently to check some content or do Mythics with my longtime guild then go, so maybe I just haven't got the supreme hatred bug that others have.
>>337611434
>Remove Blood Elves
It's the only in-game race whose story is worth giving a damn about and that's how it has been since WC3.
>>337614881
Yes, that's important as well, just like community.
>can't wait to play legion
>legion looks really good
>legion is gonna be great
>legion is gonna fix everything
Holy shit this thread.
How in the world do people trust ActiBlizz after WoD?
>>337614970
What you XIV shills don't seen to understand is that the fact that it isn't F2P and that it gets expansions doesn't mean it's a success. The fact that Square is in the green when it comes to MMOs doesn't make XIV a success either.
The fact it isn't F2P simply means they don't want to kill what little community the game has, as I've demonstrated with my earlier posts. The fact it gets expansions is because they want to get all the players who quit until more content came out back, while also cashing in on the teeny-tiny community it already has.
Their MMO department being in the green has very little (if anything) to do with XIV. I don't need to tell you how popular Dragon Quest is in Japan, do I? I don't need to tell you how many mobile MMOs square runs in Japan, do I?
>>337614958
Announcing your sub numbers always ends in a PR nightmare
Look at WoW
>>337614682
See >>337614575
>>337614939
Most boards don't get that many posts, and places like /mlp/ are an extremely specific niche. There aren't millions posting on fucking /pol/, and niche interests don't benefit from general psychology like with game design.
>>337615271
WoW exploded around the time they advertised "2 million subscribers can't be wrong." So no, it's good for PR so long as you actually have the numbers. XIV doesn't.
>>337614958
Just saying that the community has little if anything to do with the game's level of potential enjoyment. Everything that's being listed in reply to that idea is listing development features.
>>337615196
"Quality of people" is a meme. That post didn't even properly reply to the other.
>>337615259
You're implying that XIV ARR flopped when it didn't. All the servers since 2.0 launch are still running and never merged or closed down, they are having 3 major official FFXIV conventions in US/EU/JP this year, and the latest SE financial report said that XIV is steadily growing.
>>337611434
>LFG can only be used when already in a dungeon with at least 3 players in the party.
And how the fuck would people join?
>>337615354
When you advertise that you got millions of subs, it's going to bite you in the ass later in investor meetings and marketing material when your subs inevitably drop. Don't forget the power of the internet where people will call your game dead because it has 5 millions subs instead of 12 millions now.
>>337597907
remove anyone who thinks vanilla was good without having played it
get bent wrathbaby
>>337615404
>community has little if anything to do with the game's level of potential enjoyment
And I'm just saying you're wrong. The height of WoW for me was when my guild was literally the enemy of our entire server because we refused to work with them in opening the AQ gates. They were all dickheads and we wanted to see the content for ourselves.
The entire server banded against us and we had to trudge through raids of horde to go anywhere or do anything. We had to deal with spies and ganking constantly. It was a glorious shitfest. When we were the first to clear AQ40 on our server it felt so fucking good I nearly came. When I got the server first Death's Sting it put me over the edge and my shorts were covered in jizm.
>>337615543
The only thing that will ever prove it's not a flop is sub numbers, and they don't have subscribers so we'll never get that. The fact servers are still up could simply be because they're too lazy to merge them.
Conventions are cheap as hell to run and Final Fantasy is a popular franchise. The fact they can run those conventions while XIV is on the brink of F2P isn't surprising and it doesn't prove it isn't a flop.
The financial reports do not single out XIV ever. It's always lumped in with the MMO department or other, more successful MMORPGs like Dragon Quest and XI.
Meanwhile A Realm Reborn did not hit #1 in sales charts in Japan or US. (It was #6 in Japan. Jojo's was #1.) The price of the game dropped like a rock on steam, from 59.99 to 14.99 within a handful of month. The game's a flop. Fucking deal with it.
>>337600535
>Well, it depends. It's an inherent handicap to world PvP and exploration,
Only if the damn devs are lazy and you know it. If they wanted to they can OMG make certain zones where flying doesn't work, like they have before. That way you can still have stranglethorn vale and be all alone there when everyone avoids your sorry ass.
>>337616012
Anyone who thinks 5 million subs is somehow a failure can be easily dismissed. And by the way I hope you're not referring to XIV. That game never had 5 million subs.
>>337616053
You don't actually think FFXI is more successful than FFXIV do you?
>>337616335
Of course it's more successful. Are you fucking stupid?
>>337601427
Is that at peak times?
>>337616398
Not currently, which is what a yearly financial report is focused on.
>>337616053
The financial reports don't single out dragon quest or XI either, guess those games are flopping hard too.
If XIV really did flop, they would have pulled the plug already. End of story. Why keep pumping millions of dollars into a game that hasn't made you money in 3 years?
>>337616210
WoD doesn't have 5m subs.
>>337616398
FFXIV has already surpassed FFXI in profits made in the same time span of release.
>>337616053
What's being described is what comes from decent game design. "The community is the problem with WoW" doesn't ever come off as what it really is.. a development problem, and makes it seem like some unkown demographic flux has fucked with being able to experience the game.
>>337597907
I would fix the general imbalances of the game in addition to what is in the OP.
Not class imbalance but general imbalance in gear, talents, stats, general game design balancing.
Make it more like vanilla for instance.
>>337616012
>>337616210
>as if WoW actually has 5M subs
>not a bunch of Chinese cafe logins
>>337616497
Considering XIV is consistently lumped in with the entire MMO department - which INCLUDES XI - it's as easy for me to say that XI is responsible for that as it is for you say that XIV is responsible. Meanwhile the truth is that DQX and their mobile MMOs are the ones responsible.
And that's not to mention that XI has had a consistent subscriber base for OVER A DECADE and we know this for a fact because we have the actual subscriber numbers. XIV doesn't release subscriber numbers so for all we know XI has more subs that XIV does to this day.
So yes, XI is more successful.
>>337616571
No shit.
>>337616663
No, it doesn't. XIV is lumped in with the MMO department as described above. We don't know how much money it's made on its own. We do know that multi-millions of dollars were spent on the development and advertising, however.
>>337616678
That I can agree with. You need to develop a game that's player-driven.
>>337616781
The whole 5m subs thing wasn't centered around the modern state of WoW.
>>337615779
You actually make a party and travel there.
Then pop LFG and fill the extra slots.
Keep the focus on grouping up and traversing the world.
>>337615181
The Sunwell was cleansed like 8 years ago.
They're still draining Naaru and eating deamons for magic.
I think the Draenei have done more than them, and that's saying some shit.
>>337616974
They never released XI's sub numbers, they always mention player accounts created.
>>337615227
People have said that every expansion since TBC though
>>337599170
This would be interesting, but the day/night cycle couldn't mirror the real world's like it currently does for that to work. It would have to be more like ff14.
>>337617167
You're thinking of XIV. Nice try though. XI's wikipedia has numbers listed between 2003-2006. Polygon also reports that DQX, XI and XIV combined barely have 1 million subscribers, and my money is that it's DQX with the majority of subs, not XIV.
>>337614468
Order Halls are not at all like garrisons.
Flying should remain as it is, enabled in previous expansions/low population areas UNLESS Blizzard does their proposed changes to zone scaling, in which case there should be designated flight zones and designated no flight zones.
Why remove cross realm features? Guilds are still locked to realms.
Yeah, they should really merge a bunch of the low population servers, as well as some of the servers that have excessive faction imbalances.
See the level scaling thing I mentioned above.
What do you mean by make it necessary again? You still have to use CC in difficult PvE areas.
>>337617124
>travelling to dungeon
only retard do it in retail now
>>337616053
Hate to tell you this, Blizzard shill, but FFXIV is doing fantastic.
>>337617669
This is where you fail to provide evidence.
>>337617449
Those numbers on the Wikipedia aren't officially from Square Enix though.
Also, how can you be sure DQX has the majority of subs when it's only available in Japan? Compared to FFXIV which is available in multiple different regions across the world.
>>337616781
WoD made 500 million dollars for the year, do you honestly think the bulk of that is Chinese people mate?
>>337617749
Because dragon quest is extremely popular in Japan and it's a good game, while Final Fantasy has lost a lot of its popularity and XIV is shit.
>>337617669
Lmao
Yoshi get out
>>337617451
>Order Halls are not at all like garrisons
>Flying should remain as it is
>Why remove cross realm features?
>You still have to use CC in difficult PvE areas
>>337617484
Yeah. That's not a good thing.
You can play the entire game from your garrison. World of Warcraft needs a World.
Garrison of Warcraft doesn't have the same ring to it.
>>337617747
I play the game. It has a shit load of people playing it.
They are always doing new promotional events. It's advertised everywhere. If it were failing, they wouldn't be allowed the budget to do any of this. HW had a highly successful launch.
>HURR ITS FAILING
while providing no evidence other than "they don't post numbers" is delusional.
You also forget that it's available on PS4 and incredibly popular on that platform.
>>337616974
>And that's not to mention that XI has had a consistent subscriber base for OVER A DECADE and we know this for a fact because we have the actual subscriber numbers.
We HAD the actual sub numbers until like 2009 when they stopped releasing them because they dropped under 500k. FFXI has 2 (arguably 3, but who the fuck actually plays on Quetz) really active servers, FFXIV has many more (which is a shame). Furthermore I never claimed XIV was responsible, I only said that in the current year of our lord 2016 XIV is more successful than FFXI.
Also your argument is "We don't know so obviously I'm correct" is fucking retarded.
>>337617124
>Then pop LFG and fill the extra slots.
Ok let's do the math
WoW parties have 5 players.
You can only use LFG if you have a party with 3 or more players
5 - 3 is 2.
You cannot use LFG if you are a solo player or in a party with 2 players.
Those last two slots cannot be filled because there are no solor or 2 player parties in LFG.
>>337617749
>Those numbers on the Wikipedia aren't officially from Square Enix though.
SE releases a Vana'diel census every year. When the game reached 500k subscribers they started mentioning that in every census. When it dropped below that they omitted it. They first hit 500k subs in 2004 and they were very specific that they were subscribers and not trial accounts or characters.
>>337618305
>I play the game. It has a shit load of people playing it.
>evidence
>>337597907
Heirlooms, I guess? I mean you kinda got the rest. Maybe go back to the older talent system while still keeping that "everything should be awesome" mindset the new ones have? Though maybe that's just me missing some of the theorycrafting/experimentation that the old talent trees had.
>>337618026
Garrisons:
>isolated you from all other players
>invalidated professions
>made it mandatory to grind materials to make buildings that were mandatory if you wanted to do raid progressions
>were the one and only hub for quests up until the awful Tanaan Jungle got created
None of these apply to Class Halls. So how are Class Halls garrisons? Because they've got the minigame that unlocks class quests?
>Flying should remain as it is
Yes, if they don't add level scaling to the older zones then there is no point to removing flying. Walking through Northern Barrens with zero interaction with anything is pointless. Unless they add an incentive to do world PvP in the older zones then what's the point?
>Why remove class realm features?
You didn't answer this. Why remove it?
>You still have to use CC in difficult PvE areas.
How is this wrong? Can you find me a single video of somebody clearing PvE zones in WoD without using any CC?
>>337617901
It recenty had its most successful financial quarter while having the lowest subs since launch. Store items.
>>337617979
Now you're just delusional
At the end of the day XIV is growing and doing better than DQX sales wise. If DQX really was good and printing more money than XIV then they would release DQX outside of Japan.
>>337618421
It's actually much more evidence than your lack of evidence at all.
>>337597907
I would just stop playing at this point.
>>337618454
I'm not that guy, but:
>None of these apply to Class Halls.
You are isolated from everyone except people that are your class. Meaning your guild members, meaning your friends, meaning anyone that doesn't play your class.
>So how are Class Halls garrisons?
They are isolation hubs that feature Garrison-style missions.
>Why remove it?
It forces players to be social.
>>337618843
Sorry senpai, but you should read your own image.
>claim XIV is doing bad
>offer no evidence other than "BUT THEY DON'T POST SUBS"
Basically anyone with any amount of experience with the game has a better argument than you.
>>337618305
I know the ERP furfag server has a lot of players. I'm sure you fit right in but that isn't evidence. The fact they have money to throw at mild advertisements doesn't surprise me either, nor is it evidence of it being successful.
Their expansions are the only thing that makes money because it's the only time idiots play. They buy the expansion, extract what little content out of it as they can and then unsubscribe the next month.
>>337618343
Under 500k is expected of a decade-old MMO. XI servers can support more players than XIV. There's no evidence that XIV has more active servers.
If you're going to say that XIV is successful you need subscriber numbers, or just SOMETHING that shows it's successful. I've demonstrated that none of the limp-wristed attempts at evidence for it being successful are nothing more than that.
>>337618484
And what's the image supposed to prove? That they funnel players into some servers but not into others? Locked servers don't prove anything other than they're locked. DQX was the #10 best selling game in 2012. ARR didn't even come close to being #1 in anything.
>>337619110
Burden of proof. If you want to claim your game is successful you need evidence. I've debunked you and XIV-tards like you since day one. It's child's play to be honest family.
>>337618978
But you aren't because the Class Hall isn't the central hub for everything you're going to do like it was in Warlords of Draenor.
See above.
>It forces people to be social.
If people wanted to be social they'd be social. If you're too scared to start a conversation with somebody in a hub, you're going to be too scared to start a conversation in a dungeon.
>>337619216
>DQX was the #10 best selling game in 2012
In Japan*
>>337618343
>Those last two slots cannot be filled because there are no solor or 2 player parties in LFG.
Okay, I see where the issue is. I didn't explain it well enough.
You cannot START a party as one or two, and need to socialize in order to get enough people to start a group.
Or you queue anyway and hope to fill a slot, which are much less frequent due to 3/5ths of every party not being in LFG.
So you can be a lazy shitter for twice the wait time, or get a group together.
Honestly, I'd rather LFG and LFR were gone, but WoW would nose-dive when all the casuals leave immediately. The better idea; it gets phased out over two expansions.
>>337619216
>If you want to claim your game is successful you need evidence
If you want to claim it isn't successful, which you initially did, you need evidence. You have zero. You posted none.
Also here: https://jonathanprice.org/xiv/compare/
That's more than enough evidence to satisfy your utter lack of evidence.
>>337619328
>because the Class Hall isn't the central hub for everything you're going to do like it was in Warlords of Draenor.
Just like how Garrisons weren't supposed to be a central hub for everything, right? I remember how Blizzard said WoD was designed to keep players out in the world.
Class Halls are Garrisons. Period.
MMORPGs are -supposed- to be social games. If you don't want to be social, don't fucking play MMORPGs.
>>337619467
No, I'm free to assume the game is a bomb unless they prove otherwise, which they haven't. Lackluster sales and reception is the best thing I can go on. My view of the game's success is simply more based in reality than XIV faggots claiming it's successful because they said so.
Also those parcers are unreliable as they fail to account for bots, players no-longer subscribed and multiple character slots per account (legacy can have 8.) When your margin of error includes something like "you could possibly divide this number by 8" you can easily discard it as unreliable.
>>337619328
>If people wanted to be social they'd be social.
you have to encourage players to interact because it's time consuming, xrealm and lfd trades community for easier [Satchel of Dogshit]
>>337619748
>I'm free to assume
Just like I'm free to assume you suck cocks.
>easily discard it as unreliable
Just like I can easily discard your opinion as unreliable when you offer no evidence after making a statement that a game is failing.
>>337619939
So believe what you want to believe. It doesn't make the game less shit or more successful. Meanwhile we know for a fact it has less than 500k subs.
>>337619682
But we already know that there are things to do outside of Class Halls, which we didn't know about Garrisons.
Class Halls are literally not Garrisons, they share one feature and that is sending out followers.
MMOs are supposed to be social, yes, but leading a horse to water doesn't mean it's going to drink. If you need somebody to hold a gun to your head to be social, then you don't want to be social.
>>337619845
>because it's time consuming
If you're not enjoying it, in which case you're anti-social. It's like saying a University campus isn't social because you don't have course coordinators literally handcuffing you to 4 other students.
It funny how fixes are now main content
>>337620154
>Meanwhile we know for a fact it has less than 500k subs.
And we know that for a fact with FFXI too, what the fuck is your point
>>337620276
The point is XI is a decade old and extremely successful game while XIV isn't and never will be, just like I've been saying all along.
>>337597907
I really hope that if official legacy servers are ever released, they won't destroy it with balancing.
Knowing Blizzard, they probably will.
>>337620154
>we know for a fact it has less than 500k subs
Source.
>>337620345
It WAS an extremely successful game. It is not at the moment.
>>337620197
There were also things to do outside of Garrisons.
It doesn't change the fact that endgame will be about obtaining items through your Class Halls using follower missions and sitting in them all day waiting for dungeons to pop or raid times.
We've seen this movie before. The ending can't even be spoiled.
>>337620353
They've already basically said they do not under most circumstances want to do it, and if they did do it it'd be nothing like what we want.
>>337620386
>DQX, XIV and XI combined have less than 1 million subs
>DQX is more popular than XIV
>XI still has subs
Simple math.
>>337620424
For a decade old game it's doing just fine, anon. I'd suggest you aim higher if you want anyone to take your shit WoW clone seriously.
>>337620345
>XIV isn't and never will be
You can't prove this
>>337620197
it's also a game, people are going to take the path of least resistance, and if that path is to play solo, not talk to anybody, and ditch your party at will your MMO has failed hard
>>337620643
Give it a year or two. They're already reeling back on how much content they put into the game. XIV shitters only play the game for new shitty content. My guess is that they'll stop all together once they get VII-remake money.
>>337620541
>there were also things to do outside of Garrisons
No, there weren't. There was literally nothing to do in the world until Ashran came out which was too little, too late.
>It doesn't change the fact that endgame will be about obtaining items through your Class Halls using follower missions
Follower missions don't give you items, you get your legendary rings in the world and the bulk of rewards come from World Quests.
>sitting in them all day waiting for dungeons to pop or raid times
Why don't you organize a group and walk to them, then? You've been presenting the argument that people want to be social but seem to be averse to it.
>>337620630
>For a decade old game it's doing just fine, anon.
Assuming you're the same person I've been talking to, you claimed it's doing BETTER than FFXIV. (>>337616398)
>if you want anyone to take your shit WoW clone seriously.
I never even implied FFXIV was good, in fact I've called it bad multiple times in this thread and I'm still subbed to FFXI
>>337620815
I didn't claim it currently has more subscribers than XIV. I claimed that over-all it's a more successful title which is demonstrably true.
>>337620630
>DQX is more popular the XIV
lol
You can't prove this
>>337620949
DQX topped sales charts in Japan. XIV didn't top sales charts anywhere.
>>337620630
>DQX, XIV and XI combined have less than 1 million subs
>DQX is more popular than XIV
Source.
I've never really played WoW but have friend that did,
Why do players hate flying mounts?
>>337621052
Literally one post behind yours.
>>337621002
That's sales from 2012, not popularity.
If DQX really was more popular they would have expanded outside of Japan or better yet release their sub numbers instead of piling them with XIV.
I thought of various things over the years and I just realized that you hit a certain amount of time in MMOs and you burn out.
Its all just a veil for numbers going up, and its not fun like normal games. Its just all there to make you feel like you're having fun, rather than having fun.
>>337621138
That wasn't a source.
You are very bad at this.
>>337621181
Audiences outside of Japan aren't interested in non-WoW clones aka good games. Also DQX has released its sub numbers. XIV has not. It's how we know that XIV bombed.
>>337621240
>sales aren't evidence
I hate neo-/v/
>>337621350
You aren't posting a source for said sales numbers you blithering idiot.
I am getting baited hardcore. Fuck me.
>>337621457
There's this thing called wikipedia. It's pretty cool. You can look up facts and get sources for those facts. Try looking up DQX and A Realm Reborn on wikipedia to find out all the things you apparently need spoonfed to you.
>>337621553
>this fucking guy
You're not even trying anymore.
>>337618454
pretty sure garrisons will still exist
>>337621664
So those sales statistics on wikipedia are wrong? Is that what you're telling me? Do you have any evidence to back that up?
>>337621553
Wikipedia says XIV has over 5 million registered accounts not counting free trials members. The game was also the 16th best selling PC game of 2013.
For DQX the game has 300k active players per day. I dunno if that counts free trial members.
>>337621718
Nah, you can't get gear from them anymore and won't be able to do anything above level 100 with it.
Raid tiers redesign on the conceptual level. I have no problem with helping players get into raids with "badge" gear, but moving the gear bar through expansions invalidated the raids of that expansion.
Make role mechanics mean something. Tanks have tons of heath and can keep threat is that the only thing they do now? Healers don't need to be efficient (decent example is "triage" healing becoming a term early cata). DPS is just push button for max damage and maybe interact with an element in a boss fight.
The biggest thing for me is making single player actually worth doing. I know it is an MMO but having everyone standing around with que timers shitposting in trade chat got boring in vanilla. LFD just made the problem a little worse, people still just stood around their respective capital with the AH. Professions and just questing at level cap just feels boring now and it isn't rewarding. Crafted gear is outdated almost instantly at launch or shortly after it is updated to a raid. Crafted consumables have always had little purpose. Food that gives stats? Why? You get maybe an 8% health boost, but healers don't need to be efficient, why worry about that health? DPS isn't having trouble with bosses? why waste time and money creating buff food, pots?
I had fun with my time playing WoW in the past, but I hold no illusions that it is just a chatroom with occasional dungeons. It's an okay game, but there isn't enough that is rewarding enough to justify the time and money on it.
I don't think the game has gotten any easier or harder. It just takes less time for it to become self invalidating than it did in previous expansions.
>>337621760
You're not posting a source.
>hurr its on wikipedia! go find it yourself!
Post the source for your claims or shut the fuck up.
>>337621207
t. probably can't even describe what makes something fun
>>337603625
The only way to make leveling take effort in an MMO is to make it take forever or force grouping to earn exp. WoW was the first MMO to require neither to reach the level cap.
>>337621851
>registered accounts
Oh boy the registered account argument again. XIV babbies sure likes to regurgitate this shit. Try and follow closely, okay?
Registered.
Accounts.
Aren't...
Subscribers!
Yay!!!
Like I said, we don't know subscriber numbers for XIV because sqaure's too embarrassed by them, and it hasn't topped any sales charts anywhere.
>>337621978
The sources are linked on wikipedia. If you have evidence to the contrary to those sources you're welcome to post them.
>>337606034
Progression servers would be fun but it would probably take more resources than Blizz can spare to do it right.
>>337622241
He posted what was on the wikipedia page you are claiming to be a source you fucking retard.
When you make a claim and someone requests that you back it up with a source, and you don't post a source other than "go find it yourself on x website", it means you don't have a source. It means you're full of shit.
>>337611545
>replaying the content in harder difficulty means theres lots of content guys!!!
No.
>>337622241
5 million accounts not counting free trial members isn't a flop though like you've been trying to imply. That means at least 5 million people have bought the game.
>>337622429
>progression servers
Oh boy, we can relive blizzard stabbing us in the back again. Can't wait.
>>337622578
How about instead of strawmanning me with "hurr I'm not gonna go to wikipedia" you actually go to wikipedia and refute the FACT that DQX topped sales charts and XIV didn't.
Oh, is that because you can't refute those points? Wow, what a fucking surprise.
>>337622608
>not counting free trial members
Actually they do count free trial members, and legacy players who got the game for free, and legacy players who are bots that got the game for free. So no, it doesn't mean 5 million people bought the game. It means some people bought the game and they transferred over everyone from 1.0. For free.
>>337622092
Leveling can fuckoff
>>337622875
It doesn't say they count free trial members on the source
Should I believe a validated source or some random anonymous poster?
>>337622880
>decides to play a racing game
>"driving cars can fuck off!"
>>337622875
You're still not posting a source.
>FACT that DQX topped sales charts and XIV didn't
In Japan. So did lots of other games. XIV has been out for a while.
>>337623127
>leveling is inherent to an RPG
>this bar that is literally artificial progression
>>337623014
>I'd rather suck off a multi-million dollar company then have a shred of doubt.
At least you're not denying that they transferred everyone from 1.0.
>>337623132
Yes, in Japan. XIV didn't top anything anywhere. I'm glad we agree. Now you can stop begging me to spoodfeed you.
>>337623251
>I can't give hard facts, only opinions and ad hominems
>>337597907
Flying wouldn't be a problem if they implemented a system that dismounted you after getting hit twice.
>>337623248
You're either a massive casual or you're sub-nautical levels of autistic. Enlighten us as to which.
>>337623251
>XIV didn't top anything anywhere.
Source.
In Japan DQX topped XIV that one time. As mentioned before, it's been out for a while. That doesn't mean the game is "bombing" or doing poorly.
You are very, very bad at this.
>>337623248
Find me 1(ONE) successful RPG without leveling.
>>337600535
>it's an inherent handicap to exploration
no it fucking isn't and you're retarded if you think it is
>>337623419
>enjoying actual progression instead of the XP game is autistic
>not subscribing to the superior sandbox design where there's no need for levels because the stat distributions come purely from gear and rarity
>>337623395
>facts are opinions
>>337623435
Yes, DQX performed better than A Realm Reshit. And it does mean it's performing better because ARR can't validate its existence without mentioning DQX or XI in the same breath.
>>337623529
Final Fantasy would feel weird without levels. Same with WoW since it's basically a WC3 mod, which had levels. Otherwise I agree.
>>337623661
No one is claiming it's performing better or worse other than you. You're providing no evidence to support your claims when asked for evidence.
Who the fuck is this DQX fanboy trying to say that FFXIV is less popular than it.
Final Fantasy may be shit but Final Fantasy is a worldwide phenomenon while Dragon Quest is niche everywhere outside of Japan.
>>337623865
And I'm welcoming them to refute the evidence I've provided instead of strawmanning.
>>337623419
>>337623661
Levels are the whole reason 99% of content is irrelevant
>>337623483
>appeal to tradition
>>337623483
>>337623483
Monster Hunter
Should I bite, /v/?
>>337624071
you're a fucking cuck aren't you?
>>337624071
>99% of content is irrelevant
Much of XI's content is replayable, either by leveling another job, hunting NMs, farming gil or level sync.
WoW solves this (in a more artificial manner) by simply bumping the monsters up to the player's level.
>>337623661
DQX didn't perform "better", you can say it's doing worse since the game is currently getting less in-game content and promotions than XIV.
>>337624265
WoW really doesn't solve it. Maybe just from no rewards for doing previous content, but it's literally nothing for max level play.
>>337623483
final fantasy X
>>337597907
>found out i got into the Legion beta on Thursday
>still havent played
This isnt how I'd expected to react to the first time of being in a WoW beta since the game came out in 2004.
>>337624560
Honest question. Where the fuck do you idiots get the idea that them adding content and doing promotions is the same thing as the game is successful? Because that happens to be true in some other demonstrably successful game? Seriously, it has no fucking basis in logic at all. Like "That guy is wearing a bright t-shirt and talking loudly. He must get a lot of pussy." It makes no fucking sense.
The only measure of a game's success is sales and subscribers, and XIV is an under-performer in both categories.
>>337624770
Sphere levels are still levels
>>337624158
pwnd
>>337625070
FFXIV sold over 5 million copies according to Wikipedia sources and there's currently 500k active subs according to lodestone census which can also be further proven since the developers themselves said that over 600k players have cleared Alexander 1-4 in their live letter streams.
The more casual and single-player MMOs come, the more I find myself going back to LotRO. It might have lots of problems, but damn if it doesn't have the best explorable world, atmosphere, and community of any MMO currently out there. It's so easy to find new content just by exploring.
>>337624193
Is that only for people that haven't bought WoD?
>>337624158
>Can't trade gear
>Can only trade materials up to a certain point
This is still artificial gating, just like leveling. The level itself is just replaced by armor/weapon quality.
>>337625661
Supposedly not. If your main account isn't WoW1 or whatever, it probably doesn't get it. But I still got free 10d from a chat ticket.
>>337625070
Publishers wouldn't shell out large sums of money for promotions on top of their development budget. FFXIV is doing great in the eyes of SE.
>>337625434
It doesn't say 5 million copies sold, it says 5 million registered accounts, which aren't subscribers nor sales. Just accounts created. Also the lodestone numbers are inaccurate since they do not take into account the fact you can make multiple characters on one account. 600k players may indeed be accurate (even though Yoshi is a lying faggot) but most of them probably unsubbed quickly after defeating him.
>>337625736
The point is that RPGs absolutely have no reason for XP as a mechanic. WoW would be a better game if "1-100" was just all max level content with slight upgrades to gear over it all (not what it is now, with hundreds of HP at lvl 1 vs. lots at 100). Or fug upgrades completely, and just make enough stats to justify zones being dedicated to specific types of gear and affixes.
>>337625997
Digressing though, not necessarily getting rid of upgrades, because getting OP stuff is alright.
>>337625991
Yeah.
OR they're trying to make the game look better than it is to save face.
>>337626086
There is absolutely no incentive to do this. If the game were failing, they wouldn't give it as much money to support it. Not only are they giving the team large sums of money for promotional events, but they're using it as a platform to promote their other products. The reason they are doing this is obviously because it's profitable.
>>337597907
i just want the old talent system and spells back senpai, i had allot of fun letting infernos go wild in gold-shire
>>337625997
I see what you're saying, but RPGs are all about character progression and they're not going to just let you progress to the cap instantly. There's always going to be artificial gating there to extend playtime. Complaining about the entire leveling mechanic just seems dumb to me. Personally though, I'd like to see character progression handled creatively by more games in the future as well.
>>337626321
XIV 1.0 did more damage to the franchise than you seem to realize. They lost Sony as a major shareholder and consumers began to move away from the franchise after 1.0 and XIII.
Pumping money into ARR is the only thing between them becoming a total laughing stock again. The fact they can advertise their other (more successful) products at said events (and in-game through shameless cross-promotion) is more than enough incentive to keep the game floating and to fund events, even though it is a massive failure and a total turd.
>>337626481
What that post is actually saying is
>sub MMOs are all about "character progression", and they're not just going to let you progress to cap instantly, 'cause dosh
..But that ignores the fact that gameplay can not only be much more appealing without levels, it can be much more gameplay to experience. WoW's problem is that there's nothing going on at max which would be fixed if there was a reason to farm.
It's no about what games do and don't do, it's about what should and shouldn't be. Levels are unnecessary, and for a sandbox like EVE, completely reduce the potential of the game to a semblance of nothing. Those interested in the game and already "leveled" can't recruit effectively, and those fresh and interested can't actually play effectively or experience a lot of the game. If there's no reason for leveling, that's a really obvious place to improve / innovate.
>>337626789
>They lost Sony as a major shareholder and consumers began to move away from the franchise after 1.0 and XIII.
you are totall fucking delusional if you think this was due to 1.0. It had to do with Sony restructuring because of their other rapidly failing divisions. not because of SE. They sold off a lot of other shit too.
You other statement is just the same baseless horseshit you have been parroting this whole thread.
FFXIV is doing great as much as it frustrates you.
>>337627494
>XIV 1.0 bombs
>XIV 2.0 bombs
>Sony sells their stock in square
TOTAL COINCIDENCE
>>337627649
>2.0 bombs
2.0 was a giant success.
>>337600952
It's constantly "It gets better soon"
I gave up at level 30 because of the simple reason that it's fucking boring, atleast wow seemed interesting to play, maybe I'm burned out on mmos but it just seemed like nothing was ever happening
>>337626980
>sub MMOs are all about "character progression", and they're not just going to let you progress to cap instantly, 'cause dosh
Well yeah, but even your non sub-based RPG had artificial limitations on your progression. It's just what RPGs do to create a decent game length.
>But that ignores the fact that gameplay can not only be much more appealing without levels, it can be much more gameplay to experience.
It depends on how the rest of the game is designed desu. A traditional leveling system and an alternative progression system both have equal potential.
>WoW's problem is that there's nothing going on at max which would be fixed if there was a reason to farm
WoW didn't have the problem before and it still had a leveling system. This problem is the result of dev incompetency.
>Levels are unnecessary
It all depends on how the rest of the game is designed to synergize with the progression system. It can be great or terrible.
>>337627787
[citation needed]
>>337627915
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XIV:_A_Realm_Reborn#Sales_and_subscriptions
>By the end of the first week of release, the PS3 version of A Realm Reborn placed second in Japan's sales charts, with 184,000 physical copies sold. In late October 2013, Square Enix announced that the game had one and a half million registrations. It was the 16th best selling personal computer game of 2013 in the United States. In Japan, the PlayStation 3 version was ranked 32 in sales, with 244,574 retail copies sold. Following an extremely poor fiscal year 2013, Square Enix executives commended the game's sales and subscriptions for its role in returning the company to profitability in 2014. As of August 2015 the game had over 5 million registered accounts, a figure which excludes free trial members.
>>337627825
>even your non sub-based RPG had artificial limitations on your progression. It's just what RPGs do to create a decent game length
SP RPGs don't have the multiplayer component to base gear loss and crafting and sales around.
>A traditional leveling system and an alternative progression system both have equal potential.
Nope. Progression can be completely based in getting and losing gear, which would make EVE a much more interesting and dynamic game.
>WoW didn't have the problem before
But plenty of players already have max level characters. Leveling causes content deficiencies by making lower level content obsolete.
>It can be great
And I'm saying that it's inherently detracting.
>>337627820
yeah i gave up low 30s as well, the dungeons were starting to get harder but man what bullshit
>>337628101
>placed second
>ranked 32
>square still said it was a success
Wow, color me convinced.
Unpopular opinion but I think that there should be some kind of system that punishes ganking.
It's fucking annoying to get corpse camped by a max level player just because they felt like being a dick that day.
I haven't played wow since 2007 but lately I've been ichting to get back.
It's not even about wanting to relive my botched childhood, I just feel like killing a couple of weeks of my free time and have some fun.
Should I pick up Legion or has the game simply become too radically different from what it used to be?
>>337628284
PS3 was ranked second, but that's not including PS4 and PC sales.
Ranked 32 in Japan as a whole. They have a lot of game software sales there of varying popularity.
1.5 million registrations even before the year was over. 16th best selling PC game in US alone. PS3 version alone sold a quart of a million copies in Japan.
It was a huge success.
You're delusional. Go see a doctor.
>>337628467
There's a free game time promotion, and the support staff is cool enough to give free game time anyway.
I'm actually having a lot of fun. Not into raiding, and the reason I unsubbed in Jan-Feb was because BG queues were empty.
>>337628405
Reroll to a carebear server or make friends.
>>337597907
There is literally nothing wrong with dungeon finder
>>337628565
>ranked second
Outranked by Jojo's fighting game. Not convincing.
>Ranked 32
REALLY not convincing.
>1.5 million registrations
Accounts transferred from 1.0.
ded game
>>337628675
>He doesn't like being ganked by a higher level
>Must want a carebear server
Eat shit, World PvP between people in the same bracket is fun. Being camped by a capped character for no reason isn't.
>>337628731
Jojo is fucking huge in Japan.
If you don't think top 32 is impressive in Japan, you're entirely delusional.
>Accounts transferred
If 1.0 had 1.5 million users then holy shit it must have been a massive hit. Also there's no where that it states those were transfers or new registrations so again you're talking way out of your ass.
>>337628954
>Jojo's is huge in japan
So is Dragon Quest.
>Top 32 is impressive
Top 10 would be more impressive cough dragon quest.
>holy shit it must have been a massive hit
You could make accounts for free, so no. Not a massive hit. It's why the whole "5 million registered accounts thing" isn't impressive. Because players and bots could make accounts for free, and they transferred them all over.
>>337628845
RULES OF NATURE
>>337627915
If it wasn't a success they would have went F2P like every other MMO that's not WoW.
>>337628845
>Being camped by a capped character for no reason isn't
So don't play on a PvP server.
>BUT I WANT ITTTT WAA
>>337629147
>a figure which excludes free trial members.
Dumbfuck still can't read.
There's also, again, nothing stating these were account transfers. Even if they were, players came back in droves. They did something right.
>>337628845
come back in 15 minutes this shit isn't hard
>>337628182
>SP RPGs don't have the multiplayer component to base gear loss and crafting and sales around
They still have artificial time gating though which was the point.
>Nope. Progression can be completely based in getting and losing gear, which would make EVE a much more interesting and dynamic game
Yes, a system like that can be great just like a leveling system can be as well.
>But plenty of players already have max level characters. Leveling causes content deficiencies by making lower level content obsolete.
Each expansion still had a leveling process and the leveling over takes up a small portion of the time people spend in the game.
Low level content becoming obsolete is a design flaw. Incentives can be provided to keep that content relevant.
>And I'm saying that it's inherently detracting.
That's just incorrect then.
>>337629250
Them not going F2P doesn't prove anything. We're dealing with facts here, not conjecture. There's lots of reasons to keep a subscription and paywall entry.
>>337629358
"Free trial members" and "players who made accounts in 1.0 for free" are two different things. Also I don't believe that they do exclude free trial members since you have to make an account to log in for the trial.
Legacy players all came from 1.0. How are they playing if they didn't transfer the accounts?
>>337629468
>They still have artificial time gating though which was the point.
But this is a WoW thread.
>Each expansion still had a leveling process and the leveling over takes up a small portion of the time people spend in the game
And it's probably a huge development process.
So as someone who hasn't played since early WOTLK is there any reason to play retail again? Legion looks like it's got some neat stuff but I've been leveling a new character with the free week of game time recently and it seems like everything is just so piss easy now, even running early dungeons is just filled with people oneshotting trash mobs and burning down bosses within 30 seconds. Why do people still play this, am I just missing something?
>>337629569
If there's lots of reasons to stay sub only, why did MMOs like Tera, Wildstar, and GW2 drop their mandatory sub fee? Those games must have more players than FFXIV so why give up easy money every month?
>>337629893
Tera and Wildstar didn't have a franchise to give them a large initial player base. F2P is the only option there. GW2 is garbage and doesn't appeal to the GW1 playerbase so F2P is the only option.
ARR is garbage but it has the Final Fantasy tag on it so there's some weebs who are guaranteed to play. Subs make sense, especially since it makes the game look like it isn't a massive failure.
>free gametime
>would like to experience the colorful zones and explore
>everything's queue based
>>337630214
So three big video game companies and their publishers are making their highly expensive and player infested MMOs F2P just because their game sucks? People could be still paying and playing those shitty dead games just like they could with FF14 right?
>>337630415
You're not forced to queue for anything, nothing is stopping you from making friends ingame and all running to the instance and maybe get some world PVP on the way if you play on a good PVP server.
>>337630616
>because their game sucks
They wouldn't be filled with players if it wasn't F2P because they didn't have large initial player bases. Only franchises like Warcraft and Final Fantasy or Elder Scrolls can pull that off.
And yes, players could be playing those "shitty" games. There's no real difference since they're all WoW clones.
The thing is that XIV doesn't have a bigger player base than those shitty free to play games, but they can at least cash in on the ones they have via subscription and pathetic expansions.
>>337630938
>making friends ingame
>everybody's probably in their garrisons
It's not even about the socialization. There's just no reason to be in zones at max level.
>>337630947
How do you know XIV playerbase is less than 3 MMOs? Do you have leaked investor sales knowledge of this?
>>337631073
XIV doesn't give us subscriber numbers so I'm free to assume they're on-par with F2P MMOs.
>>337630938
>99% of people take the path of least resistance
>this means 99% queue for content that's barely worth doing
>1% of the severely diminished playerbase leftover for me to draw from to make my own groups organically
>never ever EVER find people to run normal parties with because of this
>"b-b-but you're free to n-not use it!!"
>>337631035
So don't make friends with fucking garrisons tards you idiot.
There's still people who do shit like world PVP and explore the zones on a large PVP server. Why don't you get acquainted with them? Are you too busy AFKing in your Garrison or posting here on fucking 4chan?
>>337631256
>just gank those people in their garrisons in full resilience gear and flying 80 miles in the air bro! What are you lazy?
>>337631397
>resilience gear
I agree with the jist of your post, but this doesn't exist anymore.
>>337631256
>Just go respawn over and again and WPvP
There's not even anything to farm because professions got redesigned. It's just nothing.
>>337630214
What's insane about the garbage aspects of FFXIV is that they all the features are really good, and then there's some extra bit tacked on that drags them down. The only system in FFXIV that is fundamentally flawed, and requires gutting to fix it, is the cross class skills shit. Everything else could be improved with just tweaks.
>>337630938
you can say BE MORE SOCIAL but you're just wrong if you think the party system, matchmaking, and such don't affect the community
>>337597907
Seriously though, FFXIV is a cool MMO. I like it more than WoW.
Check out my 5
>>337631620
4.0 is going to fix everything, please look forward to it bro.
>>337631620
This thread is on autosage so I don't really have time to argue about XIV anymore but the only good aspect of ARR that I found was the combat system, and even that was underwhelming compared to other MMOs, most especially XI.
Ironically it's the one thing everyone complained about in beta, and probably still complain about.
Meanwhile everything the core players of 1.0 unanimously agreed upon being terrible in 1.0 were unchanged in 2.0. Crafting, gathering, leveling, the terrible cross-class system, the slapdash job system, auction houses, retainers and speed run dungeons. All of it in 2.0. It's a fucking joke.
>>337632151
Nobody actually liked 1.0 , it was so bad at a catastrophic game design level.
I respect that a company managed to save a game that was as bad as 1.0 FFXIV
>>337632065
Yoshi P, pls.
>>337632276
The game failed because it was a literal alpha version of a game, not because it had bad game design. They also copied all of the BAD parts of 1.0 over to 2.0. And also there are / were people that enjoyed 1.0.
>>337631814
This desu fàm
>>337597907
Heirlooms have single handedly destroyed the game. Bring back talents on a level by level basis to bring a sense of progression, make the raids painfully hard, and yes, remove LFR. LFD is okay without heirlooms.
>>337632530
literal copy pasted areas and server sided UI are not good game design
>>337632670
Alpha version of a game.
>>337632719
Good thing 2.0 is the beta and 3.0 is the final product kek
![1457265266060[1].gif](https://i.imgur.com/vmEjwQn.gif "1457265266060[1]")
![Celestial-Steed-1[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/3udIGQv.jpg "Celestial-Steed-1[1]")
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