Was TBC better than Vanilla?
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I only started playing during TBC, but on paper TBC seemed to be a much better game than Vanilla, and WOW only started going downhill at the end of WOTLK.
Wouldn't you guys prefer a TBC server over vanilla server considering. TBC was a better game overall?
>>336057645
TBC invented welfare gear, daily quests and gated raid content
even worse, Arena came about. and Arena ruined wow for sure
>>336057764
There was gated raid content in vanilla too smartass.
The only thing that might arguably be detrimental is the way "welfare epics" were handled, but that was more to allow alts and late adopters to catch up since guilds were only concerned about the progression content.
>>336057764
That's the most retarded thing I've heard all day.
How the hell did Arena ruin wow?
WotLK > TBC > Vanilla > MoP >>> Cata >>>>>> WoD
Easily.
WotLK and TBC both fumbled by adding things that would eventually lead to the downfall of the game, but while in their respective expansions they weren't out of control.
TBC had 2v2 Arena, which was great fun
TBC had better raiding
TBC had much better 5-man content
But Vanilla had that fresh feeling. Like when Alterac Valley first came out, or doing 15-man UBRS runs, going through Blackrock Depths for the first time, the outdoor raid bosses & later the dragons, and of course the AQ40 gates opening event and all the effort leading up to it.
In TBC they were already starting to streamline things and making "systems" and trying to make all specs viable etc. Vanilla was more original.
>>336057917
God I was soo pissed off when they removed the Kara key requirement.
It took me soo much work to get it, and then *poof* it's gone...
>>336057645
It was the last time raiding had a clear progression. They practically invented content droughts with that retarded philosophy of making only the newest raid tier relevant.
>>336057952
I dunno Naxx 2.0 was pretty fucking retarded...
>>336057952
WotLK had Naxxramas, which was absolute dogshit and a walk in the park, Ulduar which was good, ToC which still to this day is the worst raid released in the game (and you had to do it four times a week...) and then ICC which was also good.
That's only a two out of four. And PVP became extremely bursty giving rise to the retarded spellcleaves that dominated 3v3.
By any metric WotLK was one of the worst, if not the worst, expansions of the game. Which is why the game peaked during WotLK following the TBC & Vanilla momentum, and only declined after that.
>>336057764
>gated raid content
>literally 3 bosses were gated
Sunwell was shit for multiple reason, but gating hardly mattered unless you were a diehard fanboy of one of those top raiding guilds.
>>336057947
if you had played during TBC you'd know why.
They were going to gut warlocks pve ability because Life Tap was too powerful in pvp. They also wanted sitting down and eating to be more of a risk, so they were going to change it so that you didn't gain health and mana back for 5 seconds. my guild was learning Mt Hyjal during that time, and 5 seconds would have made each healer have at best 50% mana between waves, let alone a boss
also the death wish swap into arms nerfed fury warriors pretty badly
and my personal gripe, they did not have an offhand sword usable by rogues from Black Morass heroic ALL the way up till Mother Sharaz in BT. the only alternative was the arena one
The introduction of Flying mounts was the first step towards downfall imho...
>>336058430
Poor warlocks had such a hard time in TBC PvE
Let's be honest here NostalgiaBots, Vanilla sucked, TBC to WOTLK was WoW's prime.
Even Cata,MOP and WoD are better than Vanilla, get out of your nostalgia ridden asshole. Vanilla Fanbois.
>>336057947
All the best gear was in Arena.
There was no use to batlegrounds for gear.
You needed Arena gear to be good at Arena, meaning you needed to grind yet another set of armor that constantly improved every season.
They added Resilience for Arena, which made Arena gear even MORE important.
With such small groups, it became easier to run FotM classes to utterly ruin lives.
With honor unimportant, world PvP became even more dead than it already was with flying mounts.
>>336057952
TBC > Vanilla > Wrath
Wrath was pretty good at the start, but as the shit got added, the second half became unbearable, dropping hard after Ulduar. With over half an expansion poor, it doesn't stand up to Vanilla, which was plain, but polished.I would murder at least two people Blizzard would get their head out of their ass and have Vanilla Dungeons and crafting, TBC's world, and a combination of all three's raids.
>>336058475
Also heroic dungeons
like its nice for a lot dungeons to be relevant at end game as well, but it just ended up with Blizzard providing fewer and worse designed instances and eventually led to "run this raid on 4 difficulties" thats fucking awful
>>336057764
"Welfare" gear that wasn't even good enough to clear 5 man heroics.
Yes, PvP was a fucking mess, but everything else was a step in the right direction from Vanilla.
>>336058868
>welfare gear wasnt good enough to clear heroics
spot the retard
>>336058641
when my guild fielded three of them, yes it was going to significantly affect our raiding ability
>>336058868
i'm talking about badge gear, which was at first the same level as, you guessed it, the epics that came from heroics
then during sunwell it was t6 equivalent. leather pants were bis and they fucked with my appearance
>>336058727
>With honor unimportant, world PvP became even more dead than it already was with flying mounts.
Sounds like you never played the Vanilla honor system
As someone who climbed to Field Marshal, it was impossible to gain anywhere near enough honor to compete from world PVP.
The way to climb honor ranks in Vanilla was always the same: premade WSG and later AB groups. Preferably running as many Warriors as possible.
World PVP had nothing to do with it.
Arena in TBC was good, 2v2 was so much better than the 3v3 they forced down our throats later on. And it was not dominated by FotM classes, there was a wide variety.
>>336058727
>There was no use to batlegrounds for gear.
BGs gave the last season's gear which was literally good enough to push for gladiator.
>You needed Arena gear to be good at Arena
geez what next, having to raid to be good at raiding?
>They added Resilience for Arena, which made Arena gear even MORE important.
resil was in BG gear too
>With such small groups, it became easier to run FotM classes to utterly ruin lives.
did you even play vanilla? how were tbc fotm classes less cancerous than vanilla rogues for example?
>With honor unimportant, world PvP became even more dead than it already was with flying mounts.
the only valid argument, but flying mounts and shit had a lot more to do with wpvp dying than arena did.
>>336058727
>Vanilla world and dungeon design
>TBC progression and questing
>Ulduar-like raids
>MoP class balance
Literally the perfect WoW.
>>336057645
Outland itself was really nice, but flying mounts and welfare epics were fucking terrible additions to the game.
Also I dunno, I feel like the trend of pushing high level players into one area, away from the original continents was undesirable. It left Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms feeling deserted.
>>336058430
>were going to gut warlocks
>were going to change change
well did they or did they not
the fuck do things that didn't happen have to do with anything?
Flying mounts would have been fine if they maxed out at 60% speed, and had a parachute if you dismounted willingly, allowing you to safely unmount other players and kill them.
It wasn't better or worse overall, just a matter of preference. However, it did sow a lot of seeds of pure cancer like >>336057764 mentioned.
>>336058152
Honestly I feel like all of the attunements should have been kept but that one in particular was the one that made the least sense to remove. It was literally just running a few 5mans so you could grasp basic boss mechanics.
>>336058318
DESU they didn't change anything about naxx mechanically aside from the four horsemen encounter.....classes just got that much better in between xpacs. I will admit it was pretty much a cakewalk but barely anyone in the game even saw the end of one wing and they released it at a bad time when vanilla was on its' way out the door. I would have been fine with them reusing it if it was just a little harder.
ToC had some bosses that were mechanically fun but it was obviously a failed attempt at filler raid content.
I'd rather have bursty arenas than resto druids making matches last 45 minutes...no problems there.
Wotlk was the second best expansion we've had....it wasn't riding vanilla's "momentum" (lol) it was riding its' own.
>>336058430
I played enhancement shaman and I had the same problem. I was using the boggspine knuckles until BT when they finally made some good offhand weapons.
>>336058475
>>336059194
>>336058727
>asshurt about flying mounts
Kill yourselves. If you want to pvp that's that battlegrounds and arenas were for. Literally only rogues and feral druids were mad about this.
>>336058771
But BC and Wotlk had shitloads of instances. Heroics were fine (though badly implemented at first).
>>336058868
The "welfare" items were actually ilvl 141...which was BT/MH quality gear. It was a little too much desu.
>>336059014
The first run of badge gear was fine and it would have stayed fine if they didn't make it entry level sunwell gear at the end. They went too far with it.
>>336057645
BC was pretty good.
Only thing that sucked was getting all of your alt's keyed and attuned
I liked wrath more desu, at least up until the end of ToGC
>>336057917
TBC also ruined five man dungeons, turning then into loot hallways.
BC, while overall fun and still felt like a game, introduced a lot of things that led to the game's decline.
>>336059014
The badge gear originally covered only a few slots and was on par with the 5 man heroic epics.
It was shortly before the Sunwell when they added gear that was basically 2 tiers (1 during 2.3) below the endgame gear and I doubt that helped many people to get into raiding at that point.
>>336059141
> TBC progression and questing
> questing
Let's stop jerking ourselves off, WoD had superior visuals and questing than any other expansion.
Better raids, better PVP, better everything.
>>336059327
just an example of the environment raiders had to operate under. not like i could just go fishing for some more raiders, as attunement requirements were so rough.
i leveled leatherworking to cap overnight so i could drum for brutallus. every single dps in my raid was a leatherworker on our first kill. my guild wasn't the only one doing it. leather was an ultra high commodity
>>336059508
>COT dungeons
>Shadow lab
>Steamvault
>Loot hallways
Aside from BRD and LBRS name a dungeon in vanilla that wasn't also basically a fucking hallway.
>>336057645
yea, and Wotlk was better than BC, too bad Wow died with Arthas
>>336059763
I remember volunteering to pick up LW and having my guild's bank pay for most of the clefthoof leather and shit. I got moved around so much during the brutallus fight.
>>336059763
Poor little raiders. You do realise that PvPers always get shafted when it comes to game balance?
Fucking 4/4 glaive rogues and stunherald warriors man.
>>336059862
we made money for it by farming hearts and selling resist gear to guilds that were in progress in BT.
but it was a shit ton of gold. if it weren't for marks of the illidari we'd have never have made it
>>336059763
let's not forget the fucking 50+ mana pots you had to burn every night. I spent so much money on that shit.
>>336059981
pvp is on the same level as steam tonks. why should my highly organized group activity have to accommodate for mouthbreathing e-peen jerking gankers
>>336058958
The welfare gear were the arena sets earned for spamming BG.
Decent badge gear came very late and even then, the casuals weren't exactly the most apt at clearing heroics to farm them
>>336059135
>BGs gave last season's gear
Later on.
>having to raid to be good at raiding
If you're gonna push Arena as skill-based, then why make it very gear dependent?
>resil was in BG gear too
But it still added the stat that was mandatory for any PvP for then on.
>vanilla rouges
Admittedly horrible, but not imagine there's two of them and you're a team of two clothies. You've lost before the match starts. Don't even act like FotM classes weren't a major Arena problem. Saying "Well it was broken then too, so broken is OK now." is retarded.
>>336059119
It was still worth SOMEthing. In TBC, no one wanted to raid Ogrimmar or Stormwind nearly as much, because it gave them nothing other than the kill of an NPC. The motivation was gone since there was always a huge chance to fail, lose a lotta gold, get camped, and everything else, but now, Honor did jack diddly and you didn't even get a consolation prize.
>>336060087
>tbc raiding
>highly organized group activity
literally 10 core members with a clue carrying 15 shitters.
t. someone who PvPed at a relatively high level and quit raiding after kalecgos
>>336060216
Archi says high
>my tears didn't go off
Test your latency outside the raid then
>>336060297
>+30 spirit
For what purpose....?
>>336060394
so when the horde cheerleaders said 'We got spirit, how bout you?' We could affrim that yes, we did in fact have spirit
>>336060216
That only applied to Vanilla 40 man raiding.
TBC had soft enrage mechanics in more than half of the encounters and you simply couldn't progress with that much dead weight.
>>336060564
no seriously, most of the people in my raid group were fucking awful at the game
we're talking about sl/sl warlocks that lose to mages in duels
>>336059726
Linear questing is literally cancer. It's fun the first time and then every time after that feels like shit. In TBC you could do half of Hellfire Peninsula and then go to the second half of Zangarmarsh, do a camp or two of quests, go to Terrokar for a few levels doing whichever quests you wanted, and then you could go back to Zangarmarsh, finish it up, and then choose any number of places to go after that. There were zones you could completely skip over if you wanted. I know a lot of my friends hated Zangarmarsh and Blade's Edge so they never did them and never had to.
WoD questing is a straight fucking line from Frostfire/Shadowmoon all the way to Nagrand and there was very very little deviation from that. The only good thing WoD did with questing were the artifacts you could find that would give you exp and the bonus areas which were decent.
Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm alone in this opinion, but I absolutely despised WoD leveling.
I miss vanilla deadmines.
>>336061297
My very first Vancleef kill was cheesed despite my protests. The priest in our group wouldn't move off the cannon on the side of the ship so we were forced to cheese it.
>>336061107
The issue you describe can easily be summed up as "singeplayer experience focus in an mmo" and let's be frank, that shit killed the entire genre.
This is the reason for group finder. This is the reason they removed all the world group quests.
Catering to people who refuse to interact with others turns your mmo into a shallow singleplayer shell of a game.
>>336058318
WotLK had arguably three of the worst raids, Neo-Naxx, TotC, and RS.
I'll never understand why people say that WotLK is the best. It further trivialized leveling, PvP balance was shit unless you played Ret or DK, all it has is Ulduar and the nice setting.Also all the leveling armor looked the same.
>>336057645
Each expansion has improved gameplay and added polish, but taken a way a little bit of the RPG and social aspect of the game. I think the reason why people like BC more is that it's still a lot like Vanilla, but a bit more balanced and polished.
>>336062142
WOD didnt improve gameplay at all though
>>336062142
I feel like the only one in the world who liked TotC. Some people hated the arena aspect of it, but I loved it. It was out of place and stupid from a lore perspective, but arena dungeons always tickle me.
>>336057645
TBC
>achivements
>daily rep and quests
>even more instanced pvp
>fly mounts
>40 man reduced to 25 man
all complete awful and garbage
>>336063086
The bosses were fun but it was obviously a quick fix filler raid and it was sandwiched between two of the best raids we've ever gotten so everyone is going to look back on it with some disgust.
>>336063760
>bitching about improvements
Kill yourself please
>>336063903
>improvements
>>336063760
achieves were Wrath
>>336064000
>achievements
Some of them were a little silly but shit like pet/mount collecting or the holiday meta achievements were fun
>daily rep/quests
Were fine, gave you something to do on your main on non raid nights aside from farm.
>Instanced PVP
Not everybody was a rogue who spent his whole life in STV. This was a good thing.
>Flying mounts
Again only stealth classes camping questing zones were mad about this. I couldn't possibly care less. It was still easy to find and murder someone if they weren't AFK.
>40 man reduced to 25
40 man raids were a nightmare to manage from an officer perspective and 25 was about how many non retards you had in a 40 man raid anyway. This change was for the better.
Again, kill yourself
>>336063086
Ulduar was the most innovative and ground breaking raid tier at that point and set the bar really high. The backlash was innevitable when it was followed with 4 bosses in the same room and then one in a cave. At that time, changing the way raid difficulty worked to a "boring" menu toggle didn't sit right with people either. TotC was dead on arrival good encounter designs would not save it from hate.
>>336063760
Daily rep/quests were in their infancy with Skettis/Ogrila/Netherwing/Isle of Quel'Danas and 25 man content was way better than 40man.
40man raiding was a joke until you hit late AQ40.
>>336064412
>daily rep gave you something to do
except it didnt, because you already did it and then were stuck with nothing to do. Thats fucking shitty, repeatable need to be a thing always
>flying mounts are okay
fuck off wrathbaby nobody cares about your shit fucking opinion
>>336059770
Dread maul I think was the name, the one with the ogres and elementals. Wailing caverns was also big I remember. Zul Farrah had 2 routes I believe.
>>336064950
Dire Maul, good dungeon(s)
>>336063760
Achievements were from WotLK and 40m going to 25m was a needed change.
Daily quests weren't that intrusive since there weren't that many and they were mostly for a constant income of gold. Flying mounts were cool at first, but they did make world PvP less common, at least we got Halaa.
>>336064936
You couldn't be more of an asshurt rogue main if you tried.
>>336064950
ZF was essentially a hall with one fork that ended in the same spot anyway. I guess I can give you dire maul but wasn't that like...three different dungeons? I remember the north wing being the only one that was significantly different.
>>336065374
I never leveled a rogue past 10, carebear
>>336065134
>People bitch that world pvp got hurt with flying
>They forget about Halaa, isle of Quel'Danas, wintergrasp, etc
>>336065509
Then you're just an idiot. Catching someone afk while they were taking a piss is not world pvp. It was still very easy to run up to someone questing and murder them. Flying mounts didn't change shit.
>>336065631
>flying mounts didnt change shit
sorry, I guess that when you were running between quests that was you afk taking a piss? Dont pretend like helicopter questing isnt a thing
>>336065548
>Isle of Quel'Danas
you mean the place where flight was disabled?
>>336065782
Catch them during the quest then, fuck. It's not like you were going to kill them on their mounts half the time anyway,
>>336065862
Flight being disabled is why I listed it there as a world pvp spot....
>>336065862
your reading comprehension score isn't sufficient to enter this dungeon
>>336065929
>>336065978
The post clearly implied that complaining about flight hurting pvp was wrong because people were ignoring Pvp hotspots
then listed an area without flight as a pvp hotspot
fuck off retards
>>336057645
Of course it was better. Its not even a contest.
I just couldn't stand leveling in Outland. Even when they reduced the xp needed I still dreaded getting there on each character.
>>336062014
>This is the reason for group finder.
That wasn't because of singleplayer focus, that is because most people who play videogames that aren't fighting games are inherently antisocial. They will only interact with others if you force them to.
>>336062142
>I'll never understand why people say that WotLK is the best.
Because to a lot of people, Wrath was the thing that a lot of WoW players played the game for, and that is to finish the story of WC3.
>>336066452
If the group is formed for you and considering the difficulty of 5 mans after TBC (with a short spike in early Cata) you may as well get away with treating the other 4 people as bots.
>flying mounts
>welfare epics
>arena
>daily quests
>>336066638
You're ignoring the point I'm making.
The only reason LFG worked wasn't because people hated sitting in town for an hour shouting LFM, it worked because the reality is people don't want to play with other people. Nerds aren't like normal people, they don't like socializing.
>>336066717
>An expansion expanded upon my game
>I hate it now
Deal with it
>>336066907
They did back when there was no way around it. Do you think the "normies" formed the guilds that actually did the 40 man content?
>>336067394
It's kind of like adding 3 inches to the length of your dick, except those extra 3 inches are crooked.
>>336057645
WoW was always shit.
>>336067505
>They did back when there was no way around it.
Yeah, which only proves my point. They'll only socialize if you force them to.
>>336067521
I loved the shit out of everything TBC did for the game. To each their own.
TBC raids and dungeons were bretty gud.
>>336058284
It wasn't for people like me who started in TBC and never Saw NAXX before. It was a really fun raid.
>>336067825
Most people didnt see naxx v1 anyways, but the wotlk version was so incredibly easy it wasn't even fun to run.
>>336067586
I wouldn't exactly call it forcing. It was the natural flow of things. Back then when you were getting into an mmo you had the mindset that you will be interacting with other people and that was actually its selling point.
Then somewhere along the line people started hating that and it was basically the downfall of the genre since fixing it only made everything worse.
>>336068318
>and that was actually its selling point.
No let's not kid ourselves, the selling point was that it was Warcraft The RPG
>>336068424
It was only a part of its success. The novelty of playing online with other people was still strong and Blizzard made sure to get the word out that WoW is very accessible.
>>336068318
People didn't realize that for mmos to be interesting they have to be inconvenient and troublesome, things like traveling to cities, finding groups to play with other forced interaction with others created a world. This created things like pvp outside of dungeons and all the random events that made mmos enjoyable.
Convenience (lfg, loot dungeons/ welfare epics/ flying mounts for the most part) made it so that you really didn't have to do anything but sit in town and queue for shit, so the only people in the actual world outside of daily places were just a couple people leveling alts.
>>336068731
>It was only a part of its success
It was a GIGANTIC part. Blizz's selling power has always been from the strength of its IPs.
>>336058318
WotLK would have been the best expac if it werent for the fact that the A-team was gradually being moved to work on Project Titan, aka Overwatch.
>Azjol Nerub underground zone and Raid
>Gun'drak raid
>Vrykul raid
>full Nexus raid
>Crystalsong forest quests and factions
>all scrapped or turned into shit cause the B-team didn't have "muh resources"
>>336068067
Ulduar 10 normals could be done in blues. Hard modes in naxx 25 gear were still harder though, dem mechanics.
>>336068915
Titan was not Overwatch. Maps and assets were reused in Overwatch, but Titan was explictly stated to have been another MMO in development
>>336069006
Project Titan was split into Destiny and Overwatch
>>336069101
Destiny was bungie I think.
>>336069784
Blizzard-Activision
Activision helped make Destiny
>>336068980
>Hard modes
The only hard achievements were the ones for 4 horseman and Thaddius....and obv the "don't die" one.
>>336057645
TBC was a mixed bag. It had some nice zones like Zangarmarsh, but it also had flying mounts which ruined a lot of things like exploring and pvp
>>336068915
Don't forget thedance studio
>>336070923
How did they ruin exploring? You didn't get them till 70 and most people couldn't afford them for a while anyway. On top of that there were a ton of areas only reachable with flying. If anything they helped exploring.
It was still totally possible to kill someone while they were on the ground questing, I know because I did and had it done to me numerous times...nothing was "ruined"
>>336071343
>you didnt get them until 70
you didnt cover every inch of the map before you hit 70
>tons of areas reachable only with flying
nope, there were a handful, and in each only 1 quest really utilized flight.
>you could still kill someone on the ground
except for the fact that people rarely landed with flying mounts
No, I want a progression server.
Starts at earliest Vanilla patch, and gradually works its way patch by patch until a BC server is released that you can transfer your character to, and so on.
>>336071578
>Implying people were always mounted
If you wanted to gank someone you could...easily.
Skettis, the Netherwing Island, Ogrila, Tempest keep, etc. Flying mounts were great and I loved finally getting my nether ray (guild mate and I were in skettis all day on day one and got ours)
>>336071835
Fuck this.
I want dynamic world.
>>336071958
Is there something meaningful to the game that flying mounts added other than being "cool"?
>>336071958
>flying mounts were great
why?
>if you wanted to gank someone you could
if you caught them in the world (unlikely since people werent on the land 90% of the time) and they didnt notice you since they could easily run away
>>336072065
By that logic regular mounts ruined the game first.
What the fuck else reason does there need to be? I get to ride around on a fucking dragon, that's apex level fantasy coolness right there.
So Blizz is so desperate for subs they gave me WoD and 7 free days, can I use this to shitpost on the forums? Or will I need to put my credit card in?
>>336072065
made gathering herbs a lot easier
also added a state of perpetual readiness on the ground, as all classes could effectively stealth now
>>336063903
>quick fix filler raid
blizzard won't even do this anymore, they just let the game rot for 14 months then ask for $50
>>336066452
you also need to incentivize player interaction because it's time consuming as hell
>>336071958
it was literally impossible to kill my nelf druid with flight
>>336072237
>comparing regular mounts to flying
regular mounts only offered a speed boost. They still had the same restrictions as you had running on the ground. Flying mounts break that, and exist in a world nearly entirely designed for being on the ground
its fucking stupid, and
>being on a dragon is cool
it doesnt make fucking sense, especially with how sentient dragons are in WoW
>>336072368
>exist in a world nearly entirely designed for being on the ground
but that's wrong?
>>336072368
>Regular mounts were only a speed boost
Which made it harder to catch and kill people in the world and thus harmed pvp according to your logic.
Proto drakes were pretty retarded and they gave you several of those as mounts.
Arguing that the world was designed around ground travel is semantics....flying exists and the game accommodates it. I'm sorry you can't stand around STV stealthed and feel like a badass anymore
>>336072342
I'll give you flight form being retarded since it was instant and all.
Classic fantasy aesthetic > Alien planet multicolored clown clothes aesthetic
subjective, but IMO, mechanic-wise TBC fixed alot of shit that was fucking broken in vanilla, so i guess it was a bit better....but then again a whole bunch of other broken crap was added in TBC....like fucking pvp gear, arenas, overpowered crafted gear,unkillable raid bosses....
>>336057645
>Playing Kronos
>Really just slow and brutal but still enjoying myself since its free
>Have to kill fucking elite ogres and a boss
>Boss is protected by 2 body guards
>Also a lot higher level
>get my partys shit pushed in 6 times until we devise a strategy to cheese it
>Finish
>Run out of quest to do in the area
This was.... fun...?
>>336072730
>overpowered crafted gear
To be fair you had to raid to get that stuff.
>PVP gear
PVPers bitched that you had to PVE to get the gear to be good at PVP. That's why it exists
Funny thing is the opposite started happening since the PVP weapons ended up being way more readily available than the PVE ones.
>>336058284
In WotLK, you had the entire Azjol-Nerub zone get cut as well as several raids: Gun'Drak, Azjol-Nerub, and a Vrykul raid.
As well as the Naga plotline in Borean Tundra. The Ethereal / Blue Dragonflight connection was also never developed.
The questing in Crystalsong forest also got eaten up by plot fairies (presumably because even glancing in the direction of Dalaran caused older PCs to freeze up)
>>336072537
>>336072614
How is it wrong? Enemies pretty much only operate at or near ground level while flying mounts go far above it. Multiple abilities require a surface to utilize in any way as well. Mobs will even evade sometimes if you arent on the same ground as them. All nodes are placed on or within reach of the ground.
The game is designed for the ground, and next to nothing is doable from the air if you arent a druid, and even then you need to be near the ground
the issue with flight is that you can use it to AVOID much of the world. This includes enemy players, hostile mobs and terrain obstacles. This leads to helicopter questing and lack of interaction with other players. Any sort of "travel time" complaints were dismissed by flight points which took you within a reasonable distance of your objectives without holding your hand right up to the clickable object
>>336073518
the fact that outlands wasn't "nearly entirely designed for being on the ground"
being unable to fly at all cuts you off from a lot of content with the way the world is designed, so how can you say otherwise?
>>336074021
you mean just TK and skettis which could've easily been made ground accessible or given a port?
>>336072990
>First thing i do is check trigger discipline
I fucking knew I was fully gay and not bi.
>>336069101
thats just a rumor
>>336057952
>but while in their respective expansions they weren't out of control.
This I agree with. But despite having played since Vanilla, and despite my best days being during Wotlk, I still can't place Vanilla, TBC or Wotlk #1 comfortably, they were all great and I'd be happy with progression servers where we're given 2 years with each expansion.
I know it's semi-unrelated but all this WoW talk since the Nost incident convinced me to bite the bullet on the game and pick up Legion because apparently it fixes what WoD did wrong. How the fuck do I get back to Stormwind and why is the loot system such bullshit?
>>336067394
Wow expansions aren't really expansions. Because EXPANSION implies you EXPAND upon what's currently in the game, but that's not what wow expansions are. Wow expansions REPLACE the current content in the game, making it completely irrelevant, that's what's wrong with wow expansions.
>>336074910
Wow, you actually bought into the "fixes the game" propaganda?
Did WoD teach you nothing? They promised the world and delivered what is arguably the worst expansion we've ever gotten.
>>336074910
>and pick up Legion because apparently it fixes what WoD did wrong.
Congratulations, you're everything that's wrong with the gaming industry. You fall for that shit = You're retarded
>>336075107
their marketers are too good man! i can't!
>>336074910
>apparently it fixes what WoD did wrong
They've been saying this since MoP which was supposed to fix all the Catashit and WoD was supposed to fix what wasn't fixed
why would you believe them again? we literally already know it's going to be facebook WoD shit again
>>336075312
By giving them money, you're enabling their bad practices, and you won't even get anything out of it. I noticed that WoW was finished after reaching max level in MoP, and abandoned ship immediately, haven't played since.
>>336075332
MoP was the best expansion since Wrath
>>336075014
>>336075107
I haven't paid attention to WoW literally for years. Last time I attempted to try it was Cata because they gave it to me free and I was so fucking blindsided from the sudden locale shift that I said fuck it for another 3 years. I probably still wouldn't care if everyone wasn't suddenly talking about WoW. So excuse me for wanting to give it the college try I never did.
>inb4 muh private servers
If I wanted to grind obsessively with even SLOWER gain rates I would resub to FFXIV and bash my face against a wall until I hit currency caps.
>>336062142
> It further trivialized leveling
>implying it was a bad thing for leveling to not be the fucking mind-numbing slog of vanilla
You just keep on slapping more coats of rose-colored paint on your nostalgia goggles, faggot.
>>336075332
Cata was supposed to fix WotLK problems too.
People forget that WotLK was widely hated after it ended. Gearscore, disappearance of raiding progression, a string of shit raids, heroic mode being a lazy-ass button press.
Most everyone I know quit during WotLK (myself included), and most of those people never came back.
It's easy to forget this shit with everyone gushing over Wrath now.
>>336075008
that was one of the things cata did right, took place mostly in azeroth but with new zones
>>336075332
Because when it comes to WoW I have literally lived under a rock for 3 years. All I knew about WoD is that it lacked content
>>336075393
which means absolutely nothing
the beginning of cata wasn't bad. only dragon soul ruined it.
>>336075616
Well, I'm just telling you to go into Legion with low expectations.
At worst, you won't be very disappointed.
>>336075869
firelands was awful
>>336057645
Content, and raiding were the highlights of TBC.
But it was BC where things started to change for random reasons. Flying was added, and near the end they added the LFG function, both fundamentally lead to the downfall of what made Vanilla great. Also, arena changed the game quite a bit, they changed the whole system without even thinking it through. Season 1 was pretty much the only good season since arena came out.
Wrath was only good because it was basically just an add on and streamlined game of what BC was supposed to be. But there were tons of flaws in wrath as well, the only saving grace it had was the amazing content and story, which was riding off the back of a vanilla's cliffhanger ending, and WC3.
Vanilla had a lot of flaws, but it's been over a decade since, if they fired up a legacy server now all those flaws could be fixed and more.
>>336058641
That's a joke right, world first sunwell was just shadowbolt spam hitting for over 10k and topping the charts. Not to mention being tanks in multiple encounters because of searing pain spam and resist gear.
Then there is sl/sl, fucking locs had it so easy in BC
>>336076014
t. Ragnaros
get over it buddy you'll never be relevant
>>336076132
what?
>>336075957
My expectations are basically "There was an attempt to not make the same mistakes twice" and that Demon Hunter is hopefully fun to use.
>>336075694
>rose tinted glasses
>rose tinted glasses
>rose tinted glasses
it doesn't matter if you repeat it three, five hundred or a thousand times, still doesn't mean it's true.
>>336076295
nice chart you got there buddy, the expansion was great tho
>>336059119
2v2 was unbalanced as fuck. The top teams always included a rogue, and most of the top teams were dual rogue.
lets not forget that rogue got even stronger come WotLK as well
>>336076416
Nope, it wasn't. You're just an easily entertained retard who enables bad business practices by throwing your money at anything that helps you kill time, because you're so uncreative you can't think of better ways to spend your time and money.
>>336076356
>there was an attempt to not make the same mistakes twice
>so we are pruning utility spells again and more mission tables
>>336076014
it was mostly just too short, 7 bosses is a joke, also molten front kinda sucked
>>336076056
complaints about LFG refer to the post 3.3 version, prior to that it was fine
>>336076546
so?
Shut the fuck up you stupid fucking wowfag.
>>336076295
>wrath that high
killyourself wrathbaby
>>336076626
>so?
So, MOP wasn't a good expansion, you're wrong.
>>336076662
It was atleast good, whether you think it was very good or god-tier is up to personal preference.
>>336076687
i disagree, it was great, if wod could have been at least the same, i still would be playing
>>336076356
You've already set the bar too high, anon. It's going to end in disappointment. I'm sorry.
>>336076804
no, it was mediocre with Ulduar being the only redeeming factor
Wrath and Mists were equal in every way. 1 amazing raid tier, 1 okay raid tier that lasted too long and everything else being ass.
>>336076820
>i disagree, it was great
It's not an opinion, it's a fact that MoP wasn't a good expansion.
>>336076836
Wouldn't be the most regretful purchase decision I've made
>>336076908
i still loved it
>>336076969
You're mentally disabled then
>>336077039
so?
>>336076908
Give me reasons why
I bet those apply to shit like Wrath and TBC as well.
>>336076921
Blizzards propaganda has made you so retarded you think you need to argue against buying their products, rather than arguing for why you should buy them at all.
I'm so sorry for you
>>336077106
Even easier dungeons, even more welfare epics, even more unbalanced pvp, even less world pvp, bad lore (Pandas were an aprils fool joke), the general atmosphere of the expansion was terrible, and most importantly, community was completely dead.
>>336077261
i disagree
Blizzard if you are reading, make an MoP 2.0 and you will be fine!
>>336077261
>easier dungeons
Wrath
>more welfare epics
LFR was welfare as fuck but at least the ilvl was lower, wrath had welfare on par with tier
>more unbalanced Pvp
lmao it was better than TBC PvP
>bad lore
pandas doesnt make something bad, this is an incredibly vague comment.
>atmosphere was terrible
vague again
>community was dead
thank you wrath for all the streamlining, again.
>>336077583
None of your points are correct.
>>336077638
All of your points are correct.
>>336077485
>i disagree
Can't disagree with facts.
>>336077725
>Can't disagree with facts.
i disagree
I think most of the people on nost and the other servers were really just waiting for corecraft.
>>336077136
What does that have to do with what I just said? I said nothing about asking for reasons not to buy it, I don't really care, I already bought it, nothing to do now but see if I made a mistake or not
>>336063086
I'm pretty sure I'm one of the few who like the Argent Tournament dailies. Jousting was fun.
>>336077261
at least mop improved on what existed, which can't be said for wrath
>>336078652
someone forgot his autism pills
>>336078652
>BC > Wrath
opinion discarded
>>336078868
Just highlighting the stupidity of the guys argument, I'm not of the opinion that tbc was better than wrath.
>>336076014
firelands was mid cata m8
>>336078773
>if you're not an intellectually inferior retard like me, you're autistic!!
>>336078941
mid cata was awful then
TBC gave players a clear and distinct outline, which it didn't really have in Vanilla.
Want to raid? Do these heroic 5mans, get the required rep, then move into Karazhan.
Want to PvP? Get a group of people together whose classes mesh well, and play to your strengths. Your success is rewarded by better PvP gear (although admittedly in 5v5 we got Gladiator running 4 DPS and being a HPal I ran exclusively in PvE gear) and the top .5% got exclusive netherdrakes, one of my most prized possessions.
It gave players a way to generate income, not through mindless mob grinding, but through daily quests to complete for gold and rewards for doing them often.
It allowed the player to not only grow as they level, but to understand and implement tactics to overcome challenges. Things like LOS and chain CC were not widely used by most players, even in organized PvP. New raid mechanics were introduced (now considered braindead easy at this point) with it culminating into Sunwell, the most difficult and punishing raid tiers for its time.
I consider all of those points to be good. It was an alternative to what we had in Vanilla. We look at gated content, daily quests, and meticulous rep grinding with disdain, but for its time it was built better than its predecessor.
It did have its problems - gated content lead to feeder guilds. Guilds that were stuck in a tier and seen as little more than a funnel to get players geared and settled into the top progression guilds.
Flying, while great to bypass physical barriers, shrunk the world and changed world PvP for the worse in my opinion.
Some classes really struggled in critical spots toward the end of the expansion. Blizzard was slow to change or fix these problems, and that resulted in classes being sat for better alternatives (Mages and HPals in Sunwell for example)
PvP meta was dominated by certain team comps. Mace Warrior/Druid in 2v2, RMP and RWD in 3v3, 4 DPS in 5v5 in s3, then Eurocomp in s4.
>>336072990
damn moar
>>336057645
Undoubtedly
>>336057645
TBC killed world PVP.
Dungeon finder.
Arena.
Killed most guilds with the switch from 40man to 25 raids, including my own.
In other words, TBC killed the coziness.
It made it all less fun, more work-like ( even high-end raiding, while obviously work-like by nature, was cozy compared to TBC )
I don't know, i guess you had to experience it first-hand to understand.
Whatever, it'll never come back.
>>336075758
People mention ilvl as being something that "ruined the game" a lot, but gearscore was always in the game, it was just only visible if you had an addon.
Item level just made it available in the default UI.
You know I'm not sure. TBC kind of started the whole lore rape thing, all of a sudden Illidan and Kael'thas were evil and hated each other and I never felt comfortable that Kael'thas said shit like "I never liked Illidan it was all a trick" when it didn't feel true to his character in WC3. It was all just excuses to make him a raid boss, the excuses that turned the lore into what it is.
>>336057764
TBC had the best raiding
>>336076820
>>336076908
As someone who played up till 5.2...MoP was a pretty good expansion. It's just not remembered fondly because it was sandwiched in between the two worst expansions and carried all of the things people hated from Cata with it.
>>336081127
It also didnt carry over the good things from Cata like harder dungeons
also quitting in 5.2? That was the single best patch this game had seen, tied with Sunwell
>>336080598
I thought Illidan and Kael was an alliance of opportunity.
They had a (initially) had a common enemy in the Burning Legion, but I never saw them as really buddy buddy.
Of course, that all ended when Kael'thas got hooked on the Fel and sided with Kil'jaeden.
>>336081221
All of my friends had left and I was struggling with the desire to keep going at that point.
I do want to go back before legion and catch up on all the rep I missed out on but I cant convince any of my old buds that it's worth it so I just stay away.
>>336081436
It's just odd that the guy who wanted to save Tyrande when she fell in the river became such a massive dick.
>>336058318
>ToC which still to this day is the worst raid released in the game
Dragon Soul says hello. At least ToC knew it was bland filler.
>>336082670
That really tore me up because I was waiting for the Deathwing fight for so long and expecting it to be glorious....
The actual encounter with him was fine but the "raid" was such a huge clusterfuck. We should have just met him in Grim Batol or something.
>>336083436
>the actual encounter for him was fine
>I AM DEATHWING
>THE DESTROYER
>THE END OF ALL THINGS
>I
>AM
>THE CATACLYSM
ebin
>>336083632
He was an insane force of nature at that point, I thought it was a fitting speech.
>>336083826
The Scout's a Force A Nature, Deathwing was just an insane blob of lava or some shit with metal plates on top of it
That and the "Cataclysm" if it goes off is just a fade to black
>>336083436
I just still can't believe that the fight against FUCKING DEATHWING wasn't an actual dragon-rules fight, just an awkward execution fight and then jumping between platforms hitting blobs. We spend the whole expansion with him razing the planet and being built up, and then in the final confrontation you don't get a direct battle against him or even a clear view.
Is it still impossible to enter Alliance territory as horde (and vice versa)? I remember people getting gangraped whenever they entered alliance towns
>>336084353
If you can make it past the guards nothing is stopping you. The only places where I know there are soul raping/impossible to kill guards are the lvl 1 starting areas.
I sneak into SW/IF as horde all the time.
>>336062142
>I'll never understand why people say that WotLK is the best
You realise people play WoW for more than just raids?
End game raids are always the most boring aspect of a new Expac IMO. Getting there is the fun part.Also PVP.
>>336084315
they didn't want to because deathwing was canon fuckhuge
>>336059770
Those literally were loot hallways, they were completely linear.
>Aside from BRD and LBRS name a dungeon in vanilla that wasn't also basically a fucking hallway
Stratholme
Blackrock Spire
Scholomance
Dire Maul
Maraudon
Sunken Temple
Wailing Caverns
Ulduman
And so forth.
>>336084758
I don't care, there's no excuse that justifies the only time you can attack the expansion's boss being punching his stationary chin while he dozes off.
>>336084981
You also get to chip several scales off of his back.
Don't forget that.
c*ck mods seem to be deleting threads related to wow legacy servers
>>336085149
The idea was you were dismantling his body since he was essentially molten hate held together by armor at that point.
>>336084981
If they made him a standard dragon the average toon would be about 10 feet below his face attacking nothing.
>>336084767
I'll give you that some of those had extra content but convincing a group to go that extra mile was impossible most of the time.....each dungeon was effectively linear unless you were with friends dicking off. I still enjoyed the places you call loot hallways though.
>>336085513
>I still enjoyed the places you call loot hallways though.
Nostalgia.
Once you remove anything interesting about level design, what are you left with? Boss mechanics? That's probably why you Blizzdrones wank over >muh raid mechanics so much
>>336084767
>instances full of unnecessary trash are preferable to instances with well designed encounters
this is what nostfags actually believe
Both Vanilla and BC have their merits, I'd say. I played WoW from early-ish in Vanilla (January 2005) to the beginning of Cata, so I think I have a fairly decent amount of data to draw conclusions from.
If I really had to pick which I preferred though, it would be Vanilla. There's a lot of tradeoffs between the two in terms of PvP, raiding, crafting, questing, etc, but by and large it always comes down to BC stuff being more restricted but more polished and complete compared to Vanilla. On those merits I could take either, frankly, and be happy. The one thing that tips it in Vanilla's favor for me, though, is the sheer amount there was to do. BC couldn't compare.
Now, looking at it on the surface, you might say that the amount of content between the two was fairly similar, especially at endgame. BC even had arguably more dungeons, if you want to count the heroics. However, while BC might win out in number of discreet dungeons/raids, each one was massively quicker and massively less... massive, for lack of a better term. You spent a lot less time in each, and had a much better chance of being able to finish what you started.
That really holds true for everything in BC compared to Vanilla. It all just took less time and effort. Things were broken up into much neater packets, and you didn't have to try as hard to succeed. Even questing, crafting, exploring, or other single-player activities suffered, largely due to the addition of flying.
Vanilla was just a lot better at the Massive part of the MMORPG format, and given their generally similar-but-different levels of quality elsewhere, that's kind of the deciding factor for me.
>>336085725
>Blizzdrones
Go shit up a nost thread please, your opinion no longer matters here.
Nostfags are literally Goobergate 2.0
Badge gear from heroics was nice but overall I think I prefer vanilla
flying mounts wasn't that great and dailies were a chore
Am I the only person who disliked BC the most?
I find the zones, quests and enemies all boring. I hate leveling 60-70. The only good part was Nagrand and the new zones for Blood Elves and Draenei.
>>336085791
No, instances that are atmospheric and interesting and complex and require commitment and actually immerse you in the feeling of adventure that you're supposed to have, that's preferable to "well designed encounters".
You're so blind to the possibilities that I bet you couldn't come up with a dungeon design that doesn't have any bosses at all.
>>336086025
>didn't like zangarmarsh
truly disgraceful
>>336085831
The only thing keeping me from enjoying vanilla fondly was the awful class balancing. If vanilla had launched with BCs classes and talent trees I would have liked it a lot more.
>>336085920
Dailies were preferably to farming 10 stacks of herbs each week.....at least I was working towards a new mount or some shit.
I can understand people not liking flying mounts (aside from the "it ruined muh pvp" argument) but from a fantasy perspective it felt badass riding some of the things I got.
Storm Peaks remains the single greatest zone ever.
>>336085513
>convincing a group to go that extra mile was impossible most of the time
wat? in vanilla there was always someone in your party that wanted some retarded boss and everyone was always SURE LET'S DO IT
>>336086091
i never cared for pvp. To me flying mounts was just an easier way to get from Hellfire to Shadowmoon.
you didn't really need it besides the obvious flying mount locations.
I never missed not being able to fly in vanilla or draenor (didn't play wotlk-mop)
Favorite 10-20 zone?
>>336085513
> If they made him a standard dragon the average toon would be about 10 feet below his face attacking nothing.
That's just like any other dragon fight but slightly more so, and it's still already an improvement. You literally don't get a clear view of him through the course of two encounters devoted exclusively to fighting him.
Or alternatively, don't make him a standard dragon, but yet at the same time don't make your hyped up ultimate destroyer final boss fight(s) exclusively about throwing fireballs at abstract lumps of flesh.
>>336086376
barrens if you mean by level?
Vanilla was amazing for exploration.
TBC was great for streamlining.
WotLK was great for pugging, but fucked the community in the process.
Cataclysm fucked the old world so everyone could fly, probably the one thing that the dev team parrots as you-think-you-do-but-you-don't in regards to what people want.
MoP had decent catch up mechanics.
Stopped playing after that.
>>336086420
agreed he also had a cool human form that was completed wasted
I don't understand why people think flying mounts were bad in TBC. You didn't get them till level 70 unless you were a druid. Who cares about helicopter questing. Your are already level 70. The only part I didn't like was you could get it for alts. I don't remember what patch added that. That's was the downfall.
>>336086091
>The only thing keeping me from enjoying vanilla fondly was the awful class balancing. If vanilla had launched with BCs classes and talent trees I would have liked it a lot more.
I didn't find the class balance in Vanilla to be a particular concern, myself. Mostly because Vanilla didn't promote one-on-one activities to any real extent. Other than solo questing, which was more a matter of putting in time than anything else, the smallest group that mattered was five. For PvP it was ten, even.
Honestly, if class balance had been a huge impediment to playing the game, I would have expected to see ten-stacks of warriors in WSG, and that never really happened. At least not that I saw.
What it comes down to, for me, was that the best groups (either for raiding or battlegrounds) were always fairly diverse class-wise, with player skill being valued more highly than having specific numbers of specific classes.
Hell, it might just be faulty memory (this was ten years ago, after all) but I remember a *lot* more complaints about class balance in BC than I do from Vanilla.
>>336086376
None. The only zone that was comfy in Vanilla was the Hinterlands.
I'm still sad the Sharpbeak quest was taken out. I loved the zone even more because of the quest. I'd go there everytime I'd level something new in BC because there would hardly be anyone else in the zone, so on a pvp server it was a real comfy experience going through the troll areas.
>>336086086
>instances that are atmospheric and interesting....
This is subjective. I found exploring the CoT dungeons and Mantid based ones in MoP especially interesting.
>>336086089
Zangarmarsh was comfy. I remember getting exalted with sporeggar for that pet...fun times.
>>336086159
I could never get people to do the postman in strat or Hakkar in ST unless I tricked them or was the tank...and god forbid if someone wanted something like the reliquary in BRD
>>336086315
I just really enjoyed the fantasy behind riding a dragon/nether ray/etc. Especially loved my helicopter and flying carpet on the guys who could make them.
>>336086376
Barrens for life
>>336086420
>abstract lumps of flesh
That's all he was at that point though. They go over how he's basically a throbbing ball of madness in a metal shell and the only way to conceivably fight him is to break him down. I know some people hate it but it did make sense.
>>336086581
I just hated how being a hybrid did not mean shit. If you had heals you healed and if you were a warrior you tanked...the end.
Fuck
That
>>336086376
>huh
>>336086376
Darkshore.
For PvP, Vanilla was better. Arena (and more specifically, Arena gear) essentially ruined PvP forever.
For PvE, TBC was better. The dungeons were about actual skill, rather than hours long zergfests with a zillion trash mobs and laughable bosses.
Actually, for that matter, TBC was basically the height of raiding for all of WoW. Only Ulduar can match it.
>>336086091
>I can understand people not liking flying mounts (aside from the "it ruined muh pvp" argument) but from a fantasy perspective it felt badass riding some of the things I got.
The issue with flying mounts was that flying was ultimately implemented very poorly. It basically amounted to no one ever seeing another person on the ground unless they were doing the EXACT same thing you were.
What they should have done was implemented them as a form of fast travel that dropped you off at predetermined flight paths so that you could get across areas quickly, but didn't reduce traveling to an empty mess of never seeing anyone.
>>336086581
The reason class balance wasn't an obvious issue in vanilla was because people were generally worse at the game.
Once people had easy access to all the theorycrafting, class balance because a more noticeable issue.
>>336086701
>I just hated how being a hybrid did not mean shit. If you had heals you healed and if you were a warrior you tanked...the end.
Maybe it was like that for some guilds, but I didn't really find that to be the case in Vanilla so much. Certainly tier gear only supported one playstyle (well... arguably. Let's not get into that right now), but there was generally more than enough gear that a hybrid could play more or less any role they had a spec for.
I remember quite well that on my guild's first Vael kill it was one of our ele shamans that survived after everyone else died, and scored the last hit before blowing up and dying. We also had boomkin, and quite a number of DPS warriors.
Maybe they wouldn't have been able to stay that way if we were a top-ranked guild trying to do Naxx (though I do recall some shadow priests in a Naxx guild I knew of...) but for doing just up to AQ40, we were able to run lots of hybrid classes in lots of specs.
>>336086701
>That's all he was at that point though. They go over how he's basically a throbbing ball of madness in a metal shell and the only way to conceivably fight him is to break him down.
Good point. If only Blizzard had some kind of control over his lore, then they'd have been able to write it so the final boss fight wasn't a massive anticlimax to an already dull raid in an already disappointing expansion.
I'm never going to understand why people think "but the writing means that it actually makes sense!" is a sensible argument. Of course it does, they fucking wrote it that way. It doesn't make it any better a product.
>tfw no Spellbreaker class for Blood elfs.
>instead we got gay ass paladins.
>no bloodmages with orb-based magic.
>they made bloodelves look like gaylords instead of actual magic addicts with pale skin and eyebags.
It love TBC , but it could´ve been so much more.
What did he mean by this?
>>336086854
There was this alliance feral druid on my server that held onto Grand Marshall throughout all of vanilla once he got it....he was in every fucking AB I ever joined. He had to be multiple people sharing the same account or something.
I forget his name but it was on daggerspine and from what I hear he held the record for longest Grand Marshall.
Another famous PVPer on my realm was a warrior in my guild named Alloraan who got shield slam nerfed into the ground during BC for destroying people in 3s with his prot build. I remember him shield slamming for 15 k or some shit. He had a bunch of interviews on MMO champion and other sites and eventually got the spec noticed so hard that it got gutted.
good times.
>>336087186
Or, hell, let us actually fight the throbbing ball of madness in the metal shell, rather than popping mobs that are apparently limbs until you get to pop his chin and then you win. It's not like we haven't had two good Old God encounters already, so go down that route - but let us actually SEE what we're fighting, and actually get to attack it and it fight back directly.
>>336087016
That would have made them essentially pointless. It was an all or nothing thing and some people were going to hate it. Nobody will ever agree here.
>>336087145
I wish I was in your guild then. We had one weird as progressive guild that had a shadow priest but barring that you were not raiding as a non healing hybrid on daggerspine in 2005.
>>336087186
He was fuckhuge before they made his cata model.
I guess I'll give you that they wrote themselves into that clusterfuck but I still would not have been satisfied if they handled him like a standard Nef/Ony dragon. If he had kept his body together and they somehow made the fight unique in its' own way I would have been fine with that too.
>>336087045
>Once people had easy access to all the theorycrafting, class balance because a more noticeable issue.
I'm not sure I agree with that. See, Vanilla was around for just over two years, and even right from the start there were plenty of tools to optimize how people played. The first UI mods came out before the game actually released, after all, and it's not like MMOs were a new thing at the time. People understood about theorycrafting for decades before WoW, after all.
Hell, I remember well over a year before BC came out people were already talking about DPS and threat limits, debating mechanics, and mathing out optimal gear. Remember the barman shanker, and all the uproar around rogue's AP normalization?
It wasn't a population issue either. Vanilla had over 5 million pop at one point, so it wasn't like there weren't enough people to find things out and understand the game, or code/design UI addons.
No, I think the real problem that brought class balance to fore was reducing the size of content. 10/25 person raids, and 2/5 person arenas magnified the differences between classes, and the removal of class-specific abilities as requirements - plus spreading around more buffs/debuffs/cleanses to various classes - meant that smaller differences in DPS or healing became more obvious, and affected the game more.
>>336058687
okay
>>336085791
>Maraudon
>Not full of well-designed encounters
its almost as if most of the people spouting "nostalgiafags" have actually never played vanilla
>>336088129
There were 2 bosses in that shithole that were not tank n spanks (the satyr on purple side and the end boss).
>>336087627
>I wish I was in your guild then. We had one weird as progressive guild that had a shadow priest but barring that you were not raiding as a non healing hybrid on daggerspine in 2005.
That's a shame, then. I'll admit my guild was never top-tier, but we still managed to drag ourselves most of the way through AQ40 before BC dropped, and dipped our toes into Naxx40 (and promptly got thrown right back out by Patchwerk). So it's not like we were all *that* casual. Hybrids worked really well for us too, because even if they weren't specced for it they could throw out a heal or grab threat off a rampant add before it chomped the healers. Hell, of the players I remember most from my time as a raid leader, probably more than half of the ones that really stood out as great were hybrids playing DPS roles.
>>336088282
>moving goalposts
We weren't talking about bosses, shitter
>>336087792
and there were specs like bear tank that weren't really viable until after the BiS and theorycrafting were there
>>336086581
Class balance was less an issue on an individual level, but as far as factions went, you had a lot of shit that was much easier if you had a paladin cleansing or a dwarf priest fear warding.
Talent specs were also weird, mostly because you had specs that weren't particularly good at anything. Trap choices really just suck, and it didn't help that the devs couldn't figure out how to itemize shit beyond equipment with bonuses that pigeonholed you in to a spec.
>>336087792
Theory Crafting just became the tool for vocalizing just what was wrong with classes. One of the big aspects of imbalance in vanilla was you had an 1 spec of 1 class that could tank, which led to its own set of problems with Warriors telling ret paladins and arms/fury warriors to fuck off so they would have exclusive plate drops.
Class fixes in BC were less about making sure hybrids could perform well regardless of spec and more about making sure everyone's DPS specs were viable (because fuck leveling in a spec and then changing your play style entirely at 60/70), and that there were more tanks available in general, as well as getting rid of the whole Shaman/Paladin imbalance.
The perfect WoWwould be a combination of Vanilla's dungeons designs, professions and epic quests; TBC's boss design and progression, and WotLK's class design and quality of life improvements.
I'm just mad about the loss of soul shards during (after?) Cata.
I started in BC because I'm a pleb.
>>336088508
>and there were specs like bear tank that weren't really viable until after the BiS and theorycrafting were there
Indeed, though that didn't take very long in Vanilla before it happened. The Warden Staff wasn't an expensive item to buy for nothing, and I quite distinctly remember bear tanks being useful in Vanilla raids as early as Garr, for their insanely high HP values.
Granted they needed to scrounge gear from all over the place rather than getting tier sets dropped in their laps, but they were still certainly viable.
>>336088686
Most people forget that Feral tanks gradually got better as Vanilla went on, finally becoming viable by AQ40. The main thing TBC changed was making it possible for Druids to become def capped through Resilience.
>>336074910
>Nost incident
Wait, what?
I played MoP some a year or two after it came out and level capped halfway through the new continent and quit.
What happened?
>>336088752
>Mad about the loss of soul shards
For what purpose? Having to grind trash before raids and between wipes was awful design. Not to mention how inconvenient is was to be the only class that had to sacrifice bag space to avoid gimping themselves.
>http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/High_elf
>Around 25,000 true high elves remain, most of whom cling to the Alliance trying to restore the glory of their once great people.
WHY WHY, THIS IS SO HORRIBLE, POOR BEATIFUL HIGH ELVES WHY
>>336088790
>>336088962
The issue with bear tanks was that they were a disproportionately large amount of work to set up compared to warriors and caused a lot of guild drama due to fighting over leather drops.
Sure, they were in the process of balancing things so you might not wipe if a Bear was tanking the raid, but the path getting their was much clearer when they could rework loot drops from 60-70.
>>336088686
I think you're remembering things as worse than they really were. Most of the problems you're describing are the same (or at least similar) to ones that persisted until after WotLK. Maybe beyond, but I quit in early Cata so I wouldn't know.
People have always complained about balance in MMOs, not just WoW. Hell, not just MMOs either, they complain about it in every game, even ones without multiplayer. Some players have always been assholes and tried to restrict other people from getting gear if they could.
This was all true both before and after the BC class balancing, and every change has caused some people to complain. Again, I reference the AP normalization in Vanilla for a somewhat early and highly memorable example.
But all that aside, the game was just as playable in Vanilla as it was in BC. While some guilds may have required people to spec a certain way before letting them raid (which, again, was true all the way from Vanilla to the end of Wrath) that didn't mean that many specs weren't viable.
You absolutely could raid as boomkin, ele/enh shaman, ret paladin, or pretty much whatever you wanted. It wasn't perfect of course, but it wasn't really any worse than BC was. Better in some ways, given that the larger number of players in raids and PvP smoothed out the problems to a pretty significant degree.
>>336089282
Hunters had to carry a bag full of ammo.
>>336089427
>wowwiki
>non-canon RPG numbers
>>336057645
WOTLK > Vanilla > TBC > the rest are so bad you shouldn't have bought them
Note: this is based on the overall health of the community, design functionality and FUN of the content presented.
Vanilla is higher than TBC because TBC forced too many dailies and farming down your throat and the environments were mostly bland.
>>336089540
You could buy ammo though. For a time, you couldn't even get soul shards off raid trash and would have to leave the raid to grind after too many wipes.
>>336089456
melee gon loot whore
>>336089282
I was just extremely used to it and had an Abyssal bag so I could spam soul shard spells and stuff If I wanted to.
Honestly I never really raided much, it didn't do it for me.
I only really played one character and on that character from 35-70 I was completely antisocial and didn't do a single instance, just quests pve and getting ganked.
Reached the outlands right as WoTLK came out, that sucked.
Also, I liked fishing.
>>336089558
They should be a playable race, I'd fucking play them.
>>336089456
They became significantly easier to gear come AQ.
Heard there was going to be a meeting or something between blizz and nost devs
So what's come of that, any news about how it went?
>>336089945
option 1.
>Blizzard commissions them to manage an official legacy server at the normal $15 per month subscription fee thus poaching the market away from free servers
Option 2
>hello, thanks for being great fans! sorry about the lawyers, uhhh here take this t-shirt!
It hasn't happened yet but thats the only two ways its gonna go.
>>336059119
2 rogues/warrior druid/lame ass drain teams and yeah thats about it as far as 2s teams went.
>>336087260
[hype intensifies]
>>336090428
There are always more options. They might actually be offering them jobs or a contract to take the work they've done and figure out a way to slap it on to retail.
The big issue with re-instating vanilla content is that the scripting for all that stuff is basically 4 expansions out of date and trying to put that stuff on live servers means you've got a lot of duplicate references. If the nost folks are familiar enough with the old scripting, those are the types of skills that would be invaluable in reviving that content.
Not that anyone cares about that, because we're still talking half the spergs wanting the content back with QOL fixes and the other half wanting to play on modified 1.12 and nothing but.
>>336091529
that's a legit disagreement not aspergers
>>336057645
short answer yes
long answer yeeeeeeeeeeeeeees vanilla was fucking garbage for everything but pvp
>>336092181
Its a legitimate issue, but people are sperging out over it because they aren't willing to compromise.
>>336091529
>>336092181
I'm not familiar with the QOL fixes argument.
How could you possibly delineate between QOL fixes and substantive design changes?
TBC until the sunwell patch was the best time in the game for the most sustained amount of time.
Sunwell patch was still very good but only because it had the best pvp quest zone in the games history.
>>336057645
>Was TBC better than Vanilla?
No.
Next question.
>>336089806
>Dat Taunka fishing pole
I had the one from the STV fishing extravaganza.....I still remember the day I got it.
God fucking dammit, I'm re subbing tomorrow.
>>336092893
Its basically people saying things like "Yeah, vanilla would be great, but it would be nice if they included [feature added later]" and someone responding "Fuck you, Vanilla is Vanilla. If you start changing shit, why are we even bothering?" And that continues on for a while.
>>336092806
it's really a moot point since pure vanilla doesn't even exist anymore, if it was blizzard making small numbers changes it would be fine
For me, WoW peaked with TBC. Vanilla was great, but classes and talents where terribly imbalanced, hybrids were pretty much forced to heal, and pvp - although quick and fun - seemed like an afterthought with a horrible ranking system thats not based on skill but simply an immense, brutal grind. Many people mention WotLK as the pinnacle, but that expansion added so many things that fucked up the game such as easier dungeons and heroics, and I think dungeon finder got added in WotLK as well.
The thinking that vanilla is flawless and any changes would ruin it is stupid. Of course, blizzard changing things in WoW is a slippery slope (proven by how awful the game is today) but vanilla was far from perfect
>>336093102
That green frog guy always cracks me up.
Why?
And who is he anyways? Isn't he some character from a movie series in the 90s or something?
>>336094346
that's spurdo sparde, the older brother of the feels good frog
>>336094346
ib4 heavily butthurt 80s kids
>>336086120
>Storm Peaks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38TA-X0dXr4
my eyes getting teary
I can't be the only one who wants to play Vanilla/TBC/WoTLK for a chance to experience all the content I never got to play
WotLK>MoP>WoD>TBC>Vanilla>Cata
>>336076130
Seriously, all I remember about locks while raiding in TBC was them sacrificing their succubus for the damage increase then spamming shadowbolt while one of them kept up a curse. In terms of PvP, you're right about SL/SL and they gemmed all their slots with +Stam
>>336094772
The only thing you missed out on was shitters constantly wiping on content. And if you didn't want to wipe you had to join a hardcore guild and raid 5 hours every night.
It was so hard to find a guild that was semi skilled and didn't have harsh time demands.
>>336094870
The casual list indeed
>>336094772
You will probably be disappointed if you aren't doing it for nostalgia.
The design philosophy was completely different, and blizz has added so many quality of life improvements.
It would probably feel like playing FF2 for the first time.
>>336094870
TBC>WOTLK>MOP>Vanilla>Cata>WOD
Fixed
>>336094974
Yeah man, tedious grind is hardcore as shit.
Actually playing content whenever you want is for babbies.
>>336095025
Well, I played in TBC, but I never got to level cap. I played Nostalrius for a bit when it first started. I'd give legacy content a try.
>>336085913
Wrong.
They're the same people from 1.0.
>>336094870
At least everyone can agree that Cata is shit.
holy fucking captcha took 5 minutes what the fuck
>>336095081
On that note, what did casuals do during WoW's boom and subscriber peaks during Vanilla-WotLK? Everyone complains about only having a small percentage being able to see endgame content and yet it's at these points of the game that it had the most players.
I'm genuinely curious seeing as certain folks like to credit all enjoyment from then to nostalgia.
>>336086376
Westfall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CUGauMEWJg
>>336079512
Mate you had to bring at least 5 paladins to Sunwell for their buffs. That means at least 3 Holy paladins if you brought 1 prot and 1 ret for raid wide crit.
>>336057645
In terms of PvE? Yes. In terms of PvP? Fuck off, arenas killed WPvP, and flying mounts helped as well.
TBC made some much-needed improvements and the ones it made were great, pallies were slightly more viable, however not viable until Wrath.
>>336094870
>WoD
>even on the list
tbqh we've had almost a year+ of HFC and it isn't even THAT good while managing to be the high point of the WoD raids
This sucks ass family
>>336057645
I've been playing a TBC private server which starts you out at level 58. I played Nostalrius, but I've been having so much more fun with TBC content that I was with Vanilla content.
A TBC server would be more ideal than a Vanilla server mainly because people who want to stay at level 60 and do level 60 content can while people can also choose to level to 70 for that content.
>>336094870
Vanilla = TBC> Early Wrath > MoP > Late wrath > Cata >>> WoD
>played resto shaman in arena in TBC
just cuck my shit up senpais
I REALLY WANT A WOTLK SERVER JUST SO I CAN FIGHT JARAXXUS AND KEL'THUZAD WITH RAID BUDS AGAIN THOSE WERE THE DAYS
>>336095693
he specifically mentioned the issue of paladins in sunwell as an exception
>>336094870
>WoD above TBC
BAIT
BAIT
BAITBAITBAIT
>>336096024
I'm saying that's a lot though 5 paladins for 25 raid slots, paladins were over represented for all of TBC in raids
TBC was when the retard team took over.
The thing about vanilla was it was an entire package, everything from leveling to end game was one giant immersive world, what an RPG should be.
TBC started the "end game" bullshit more so then vanilla ever did, and funneled the entire player base into it, reducing EXP to level and streamlining the process.
The only arguably good thing about TBC besides the setting was the refinement of class niches in raids, but with that can more rigidly defined class balance, which has fucked the game hard up to this point.
>>336057645
>TBC was better than Vanilla, even though I didn't play Vanilla.
Yes TBC was better, but you're still a faggot underaged bitch for assuming it was better because you think so on paper without even having played Vanilla.
Casual fucktard
>>336095558
Less then 1% of players saw Naxx
Less then 6% of all players even raided to begin with in Vanilla.
Most TBC and Wrath players will admit "I didn't hit 60 in vanilla" and thats because vanilla had more content to do then just grind end game, like a lot of people think that vanilla was retarded for having long quest chains to unlock optional shit, like the ZF hammer quest, but at the same time those were actually long quests that sent you all over the place to explore the world, now-a-days you just grind bear butts and dungeons to end game through the new 'cinematic' quests.
>>336095558
Well, since I couldn't get into raids through most of Vanilla, I did BGs a lot with my MD/Ruin lock and did a ton of grinding for things like epic mounts. Occasionally, my friends and I would get together for a 5-man that took forever and a half to get through. Eventually I managed to get a spot in a guild that was still running MC, but we never cleared it and the top guilds on the server were already farming Naxx.
In TBC, I switched to paladin and found ret to be a lot of fun despite being bad, but since I was a ret pally, I couldn't get into literally any pve content so, once again, it was back to BGs to kill time while grinding for things like epic flying mounts. I tried arenas but didn't find them particularly fun, since objective-based battleground pvp seemed like something WoW was better suited toward, but there was no point to doing any of it since all the rewards came from arenas.
Then in WotLK, I was a god that out-DPSed the shit out of most of the raid and was part of one of the first groups to down Arthas on 10-man. Jumping into random heroics gave me things to do to kill time when my guild wasn't raiding, and dual specs meant that I could at least cobble together a half-decent tank set for when I wanted/needed to go prot.
Cata was ass so I quit until very recently. Leveling through MoP content was an absolute joy and WoD is okay but it does feel like there's less to do. However, the catch up mechanics are a blessing for someone like me who missed the last five years of the game and professions have been made less of a chore so at least I'm finally able to bother leveling them up. I don't feel like I HAVE to spend all day playing to just keep up with everyone else, which is great because I just don't have the time for it anymore.
So there's the casual WoW player viewpoint, I guess.
>>336096380
And yeah, there is nothing fun about a grindy ass end game.
And thats what WOW's end game has become, grinding for the sake of grinding, people used to do it for power, to see content, ect, but now with LFD and LFR and dungeon and raid design being made for retards who don't even -want- to play together in the first place (see; cataclysm's launch LFD)
All in all, the major problem is simple.
-Blizzard makes less and less solo/small group content
-They make that solo/small group content faceroll easy
-Then they make tourist modes for the content thats supposed to be hard
Its no wonder why people are jaded and bored, all the content in the game offers no challenge without an artificial difficulty slider, even worse, that difficulty slider is one of the retarded ones where you need to do normal to unlock hard first, aka gear checks.
The world needed more quests, but the cata rework ruined it.
Quest depth is important, I remember doing the shaman water totem quest, it was a pain, but it sent me all over the world, and gave a real sense of achivement.
Now it's
>go to town
>get 20 quests which are all conveniently located around the town
>do them all in 10 minutes
>gain 20 levels
>get ferried to the next place
>rinse and repeat
He didn't get Exalted reputation with Timbermaw Hold.
>>336057645
Personally, if I had choice in servers, I'd go with Wrath of the Lich King. That state of the game was always my favorite.
>>336096890
I was busy grinding argent dawn rep because I had a fascination with the plaguelands zones for whatever reason and I wanted that damn horse.
I was the only person in my guild who got into Naxx for free when it launched (and I got my horse to boot)
>>336096785
This was my issue with MoP.
I saw maybe half the new zones before I hit level cap, and since I'm ultra casual, at that point there was no reason for me to continue.
>>336097253
I don't see how people managed to do this. The only zone I didn't hit up while leveling was the dread wastes and I still did all the quests there for the Mantid lore (they were the coolest part about that continent).
>>336096785
they should've just added quests instead of fucking up everything in cata
>>336097253
we had different experiences with MoP, then
>Started a Monk at MoP launch
>Was actually on pace to be realm first Monk but ended up falling behind some guy in Northrend
>By the time I got to Pandaria everyone was past Jade Forest so it was nice and cozy
>Loved the shit out of every zone
>Hit 100 halfway into Townlong
>Kept going
>Got Loremaster of Pandaria
MoP was fucking great until Orcs ruined it
>>336097357
I dunno how it happened, I didn't feel like I was doing a ton of side stuff, and I definitely didn't run any dungeons or anything.
Might have been related to me spending decent amounts of time between logins and getting xp bonuses from it?
I'm thinking of resubbing soon, since my new sub cadence seems to be one month bi-yearly, and it's about that time.
>Vanilla
>1% of players saw Naxx
>even less players hit rank 14
>yet no one complained
>BC
>Only top guilds on servers did Sunwell
>Even less people hit gladiator
>Yet people were still content doing T4-T6 and BGs
>Wrath
>Everyone and their mothers saw ICC
>PVP was babbymode and everyone was getting gladiator
>Everyone got bored as fuck of ICC over the year that it was released due to the fact that it was faceroll thanks to normal-heroic split and welfare gear
Wrath is where it fucked up, catch up mechanics aren't fun, raiding is fun, but if you're raiding the same shit over and over again it becomes boring as fuck.
>>336097467
I meant 90 in the part with Townlong but someone's gonna call me out on it anyway
I'm too fucking tired
>>336097467
I agree MoP was good until Siege of Orgrimmar.
>>336097560
>>1% of players saw Naxx
2% killed KT. >30% of players "saw" Naxx because several of the early bosses were easy as fuck.
>>336097552
I think I did each dungeon once....might have been rested exp like you suspect.
All of this nost drama bringing wow back into the spotlight is making me want to come back too.
>>336096890
Have you checked it out in neo-WoW? I came back for a month every expac up to MoP and during one of those stints I leveled in Felwood. You could get exalted in under an hour. It fucking digusted me because I spent countless hours circling that place to kill those furbolgs.
>>336097692
The bosses might have been easy, but the trash to get to them was impossible for their gear level.
>>336097692
Which early boss was easy besides Anuk'Rekhan and Instructor Razuuvious? I'd wager that's all people saw.
>>336097692
Less then 6% of vanilla playerbase saw naxx
30% > 6%
Can you even math?
>>336096645
Literally, exactly, me.
Your character also doesn't happen to be a human male paladin named Androme, or does it?
>>336097357
Depends on the person. I always try to knock out Loremaster (and by always, I mean Cata and MoP since I didn't do WoD) while doing my initial leveling to the cap. Doing that, I hit the cap with at least a zone untouched, but of course I ended up doing all the quests for the achievement.
>>336097867
Err, only 6% of the vanilla playerbase even raided, fuck im going to bed.
Vanilla was shit because there weren't enough quests and max level content was basically the same dungeons with no difficulty levels and same terrible raids. Not to mention the horrible class balance.
BC was an improvement in terms of leveling but max level content was yet again shit because of daily quests which had no variety. Dungeons were fine and had difficulty levels but became too linear. Raids were good. Class balance was still shit. Flying mounts shit on world design.
WOTLK was shit because of LFG, rehashed naxx and trial of the crusader. It at least attempted to focus on class balance and more variety for daily quests and dungeon / raid difficulty
Cata was shit because it ruined the classic zone design, made leveling a piece of cake and introduced several of its own shitty new zones with limited max level content. It also introduced LFR and flying mounts into the classic zones. Let's not forget Dragon Soul, the worst raid since Trial.
Pandaria was shit because it made an entire continent out of a few sentences in Warcraft 3 and continued this ridiculous story about Garrosh. It also changed talents into the ultra casual new version. Its dungeons and raids were fairly average.
Warlords is shit because it has no content and forces you to do facebook games to progress at the same level everyone else does.
So WoW has never been very good at one point in time. It's only seen as getting worse because these abortions introduced by previous expansions still exist such as LFR and flying mounts.
>>336057645
WotLK>TBC>Vanilla>>>>MoP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cataclysm+WoD
>>336097985
Heres your (You)
>>336057645
its better, yes.
but still both dogshit.
feel free to play kronos or l4g and proceed to quit after 15 minutes.
>>336097917
I did this too though. I think I got close to the end of the zone next to dread wastes (I cant remember the name....it had the Ox god in it and several mantid hives) when I hit 90 and still went back and finished all of it.
>>336097721
Do it man
The thing stopping me right this second is storage space/ I'm trying to put aside money for when my vive order ships so it hurts less.
>>336098108
What did I say which was wrong?
>>336098829
>I can 1 shot a boss from over 10 years ago now so the game is shit
>>336098947
wait til he posts the Mu'ru one where he kills it while in a costume with no attack animation as if it's an indication of the state of the game
>>336096115
>TBC was when the retard team took over.
TBC was being made during Vanilla by the Vanilla team.
Are you actually retarded?
>>336098947
Well it is anyway, so? Even then it kills immersion, instead of updating dungeons to make them usable you get elemental lords weaker than a fucking regular tiger from some island in middle of nowhere.
Would the game be any better if the level limit never increased, and expansions instead just added more shit to do at level cap
>TBC fixed Vanilla problems while still keeping the overall game quality
>some faggots bring up Arenas or flying mounts as if they actually ruined the game
The game was not ruined in TBC. WoW being ruined was a slow process. It started dying at the end of Wrath and was completely dead at the end of Cata.
People like to bitch about class viability but TBC was the time where almost every spec was viable
>>336099213
It would make PvP a nightmare, you would reach a point where some raiding 60s were one shotting fresh 60s
>>336099296
So, like it is now?
>>336057947
Trying to turn WoW into an esport.
That ruined the game.
>>336099418
Fucking this.
World firsters and Arena fags turned an RPG into a fucking job and the average player got cucked.
>>336099194
Rag was updated though.....
>>336099296
>It would make PvP a nightmare
and nothing of value was lost
I miss the old zones the most. I dont miss the slow leveling or the lack of quest finder. But I miss the old zones.
I miss when Kalimdor wasn't a warzone and was comfy. I miss the old Tauren settlements in 10k Needles and Stonetalon Mountains. I miss the comfiness of riding your mount down the Gold Road and seeing another person move North. I miss the exploration of the zones.
I miss how the old EK areas were so civilized in comparison. You have these gorgeous areas and then you get to return to an awesome town with an inn filled with life.
I miss when people used to live in the zones and not the cities. And I'm not just talking about when people would AFK in xroads, I'm talking about when people went around and fucked with lowbies. I remember when three levelcap allys raided Sun Rock Retreat and I was new at the time, just went stealth on my level 25 cat form. They probably could see me and just hid but it was the idea that you weren't alone in these big zones that made it so much fun.
WoW lacks that atmosphere of a traditional fantasy game. It's too caught up in the player and the game doesn't feel like D&D anymore.
>>336095818
only problem with that is that the honor system changed in TBC, so they would need to have a system where lvl 1-60 players get the ranks and lvl 60+ get the new honor system
>>336097825
2nd boss of spider wing was easy too cant remember her name tho. The one with the students
>>336100845
Faelina iirc.
If you legitimately think Vanilla was anywhere near as good as BC, you didn't play either.
Vanilla was good and cool but it was designed like shit and unbalanced as fuck
BC made crafting fantastic and really worthwhile.
BC made hybrid classes be able to do things other than heal (Enhance shaman were one of the highest DPS classes while buffing your Melee classes with Windfury totem, Prot pallies were THE AoE tank)
PvP in TBC was great and every class had at least one viable spec. Arena was a good alternative to BGs and offered great rewards to players who were skilled
BC PvE was the high point of the game, 5 mans required coordination and CC along with good improvisation skills if shit hit the fan
BC world and sound design was top notch. Azuremyst Isle and Nagrand are standouts in term of music
Flying was lauded by pretty much everyone. It was a great addition and they built the world around having flying at max level
The only negatives in BC were the way certain classes were treated (Kalgan plays a warrior) and the Draenei retcon
It's the only expansion where Blizzard got everything right and fucking nailed it
>>336101361
Oh and armor design
Tiers 4-6 > anything in any other point in the games history
>>336101361
i dont think yo played either desu
>>336087260
I hope when this shit drops we get a decent amount of servers, both nost and kronos were hell at early levels.
Yes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g75YgZL-HuI
>>336102917
I want to fuck Tyrande
>>336102431
Hopefully not TOO many, otherwise we'll get the issue current WoW has of there being so many ghost town servers. 3-5 should probably be the maximum, at least at the start.
>>336103434
1 OCE, 2 US, 2 EU would be enough I think.
>>336074403
>1600x1200
>paladin with wings.
Holy shit could your try any harder to make a fake picture?
http://crazygear.net/test/GWBVanilla.mp3
>>336057645
Early TBC > Vanilla > Late TBC > WoTLK > WoD > MoP > Cata
>>336105237
>the steaming shit that is WoD greater than anything
kek
>>336105237
WoD is easily worse than MoP and Cata at this point.
TBC>WoTLK>Vanilla>MoP>Cata>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Legion=WoD
>there are people in these threads that hated MoP
get some fucking taste, MoP was leagues better than Cata and WoD, literally the only problems were that the story got ORCED and SoO was given too much time, they could have given the first tier and ToT like a month or two more each and SoO would have only lasted 8 months
What dungeon should me and my wife's son do today /v/?
>>336105743
Fucking cuckposters, why am I laughing so hard.
>>336104926
Maybe it was pre Wrath patch?
WOTLK was the best expansion. But I miss the Vanilla "world". It felt more like a world and you felt small. World pvp died with BC and the arena and pvp gear bullshit killed every last bit of connection to the world and lore. Honor gear was plain better, only the way honor was managed a few month after start was stupid.
The day they announced the arena bullshit and gear I died inside. It attracts the exact opposite of people you want in an mmo rpg, and forcing raiders that already have no life into farming Arena gear on top just to not get farmed by 12 year old shits in PVE CONTENT, meaning everywhere outside of BG's, is ridiculous.
And everyone that's fine with it needs to kill themselves.
>>336105597
>an expansion about chinese kung fu pandas
It was lame from the start anon.
>>336105597
MOP was great ya, and monks are fun. I felt that ToT would've been a better end content than SoO tho.
>>336106608
As compared to Indian Cow warriors?
This argument was retarded from the start.
>>336106608
mop was more about old gods/titans than pandas
>>336105597
>TBC: Demon Invasion theme
>WotLK: Undead Invasion theme
>Cata: End of the world theme
>MoP: China theme
>>336106608
What this anon said.
>>336106608
Retards like you complaining about muh pandas are why we'll never get anything original in WoW ever again. Even MoP got fucked over by orcs orcs and more orcs.
>>336105597
Thunder King should have been the overarching boss of the expansion with another raid tier in between. As it is, the Pandaria story concluded with the ToT patch in favor of the shitty orc story.
>>336057645
TBC was cancer
>everyone start in the same zone which is fucked up
>The zones are completely isolated from the rest of the game
>The vast majority of the quests consist in killing 20-30 dudes, in fact there are entire chains of that
>Theres no story for them like it was in vanilla so its a massive chore.Leveling there gave me cancer
>sense of adventure was killed, specially because you pick up the quest and what you have to kill its right next to you
>Dungeons became straight lines and boring, you no longer feel like you are in a dungeon like you did in vanilla and they all sucked, even tho they are hard the mechanics themselves are not
>Since the content was so little they had to gate it behind massive grinds but there was nothing to do really aside from the grind
>Flying mounts made it so you never see anyone up until someone you had no way of seeing comes to kill your
>PVP gear killed the game since theres no reason to get pve gear other than to raid, you can kill the most powerful beings in the game and yet the loot is worse than what you can buy from some reandom NPC
>PVP gear also made it so you are forced to play at a disadvantage and lose for days up until you could afford the gear, theres no other alternative to it, its so fucking retarded, the pvp rewards should've been cosmetic or PVE gear should have resilience too
TBC was cancer desu
>play wow for the first time
>make a human warlock
>mfw Highlord Kruul is at goldshire
>>336107027
>everyone start in the same zone which is fucked up
I'll give you that.
>The zones are completely isolated from the rest of the game
That's the point of the expansion as all the new content was in Outlands.
>The vast majority of the quests consist in killing 20-30 dudes, in fact there are entire chains of that
Better than the shitty escort quests.
>Theres no story for them like it was in vanilla so its a massive chore.Leveling there gave me cancer
Attunement quests had story behind them.
>sense of adventure was killed, specially because you pick up the quest and what you have to kill its right next to you
Cause flying to another continent and back or collecting STV pages were much better right?
>Since the content was so little they had to gate it behind massive grinds but there was nothing to do really aside from the grind
They only started to gate at Sunwell even then the Sunwell patch brought lots of content.
>Flying mounts made it so you never see anyone up until someone you had no way of seeing comes to kill your
You never saw anyone in vanilla unless there was a ss vs tm raid. There were plenty of ground PvP in Hallaa.
>PVP gear killed the game since theres no reason to get pve gear other than to raid, you can kill the most powerful beings in the game and yet the loot is worse than what you can buy from some reandom NPC
GM gear was powerful until AQ. Why should a PvP'er do PvE for the best gear? PvP gear belongs in PvP like PvE gear belongs in PvE.
>PVP gear also made it so you are forced to play at a disadvantage and lose for days up until you could afford the gear, theres no other alternative to it, its so fucking retarded, the pvp rewards should've been cosmetic or PVE gear should have resilience too
There was a PvP starter's gear they had but it was shit so you do have a good point.
TBC is what vanilla should have been.
>>336064578
Ulduar was the last dungeon the original wow team made on before moving on to Titan. It was their swan song. Definitely the best raid in the game.
It's funny to see how hard the raid design dropped off after ulduar when we got recycled onyxia, tgc, and ruby sanctum.
Ulduar had "activated" hard modes by doing fights differently or killing things in a certain order rather than the raid leader right clicking his portrait and changing difficulty. Activated hard modes are a really great feature that they need to bring back.
The current state is just a lazy way for shitty devs to recycle the same content on 4 different difficulties.
>>336068915
This. Now we get the scraps from titan rebranded as a shitty moba/tf2 hybrid. It would be like taking arena from wow, turning the classes into moba characters, and selling it as a standalone game.
>>336072990
It's a shame we lost all that content and Titan too.
>>336075869
Cata was a lot of fun at launch. Lots of raid content right out of the box ready for you to tackle. I quit before firelands, but launch, leveling, the dungeons, and the first 3 raids were all a lot of fun.
After cata the amount of dungeons and raids dropped off precipitously. This helped ruin the game.
>>336084767
Vanilla dungeon design was much better and dungeons were much longer. There was a definite shift after vanilla to make shorter dungeons.
>>336087045
Fully datamined encounters before the patch even released and every character broken down by spreadsheets to the hundredth of the best dps definitely helped kill the mystique in the game. It became less about experimentation and discovery and more about downloading deadly boss mods or following directions that basically read like a recipe to bake a cake.
>>336105597
MoP was bad due to lack of content. Half of the dungeons were recycled shit from vanilla.
>>336107568
MoP was shameless pandering to WoW's growing chinese audience.
>>336107461
Im not even going to bother responding to all the strawmans except a few , i disagree with everything ofc
>You never saw anyone in vanilla unless there was a ss vs tm raid. There were plenty of ground PvP in Hallaa.
Nostalrius was full of people everywhere and lvl 60s would raid random places all the time plus they all fought each other when it was time for raids. in TBC you see no one, in fact they made the quests all collide on the same spot knowing that otherwise no one would bother since they all would be flying. Once people got their flying mounts they had no reason to bother goign to the ground
>Why should a PvP'er do PvE for the best gear? PvP gear belongs in PvP like PvE gear belongs in PvE.
>Why should crafters have to do pve or PVP crafters should get their own gear without having to kill a mob or a player
PVP is a side activity to the main game which is the dungeon
Wow is literally the only mmo that made this distncion, they literally pandered to casuals and again what you agreed below
TBC is cancer and set the trend that led wow to where it is now
>>336099817
>I miss when people used to live in the zones and not the cities. And I'm not just talking about when people would AFK in xroads, I'm talking about when people went around and fucked with lowbies. I remember when three levelcap allys raided Sun Rock Retreat and I was new at the time, just went stealth on my level 25 cat form. They probably could see me and just hid but it was the idea that you weren't alone in these big zones that made it so much fun.
Nowadays people just come from the skies everywhere to gank you, some people even use bot for this.
It's really awful, is there at least one good thing about flying mounts? I honestly would like to know.
>>336107849
>comparing Nostalrius to 2004
Well I never gave a single sliver of fuck about PvP and I absolutely love ability to fly in any game, so to me TBC was by far the pinnacle of WoW. I loved all the zones, including Blade edge, loved the raids, loved the attunement quests, loved the dailies that got me steady income and in the end provided cool fly mounts, and playing Warlock I also really loved cool as hell T6 set that made me sprout wings from time to time. There just wasn't a single thing I disliked in it, something I can't say about any other expansion or vanilla.
>>336108165
yeah it seems like only the people who cared about pvp have issues with tbc
i thought tbc was fucking incredible
Keys, rep grinds, attunements, badge farming, loot hallways, and dailies were all shitty additions to the game in TBC.
TBC had a lot of good raid content though and even the loot hallway dungeons had some fun mechanics and good aesthetics.
Vanilla was better.
>>336108776
aside from the hallways all that shit was good though, it gave you something to do at max level while waiting on raid lockouts
>>336108165
>>336108303
I loved Vanilla, TBC and Wotlk, throughout most of Vanilla I was too young to understand what I was doing most of the time, even though I was 60. One of my favourite activites was to stealth into Stormwind and kill people leaving the Battleground master room.
Come TBC I was older and played alot of Arena and Battlegrounds, also did some entry level raiding with various guilds. I got world second Rogue Hunter 2K 2v2 merely 48 hours after world first. Starting from the middle of TBC towards the end I rerolled an Alliance Paladin on another server.
In WOTLK on my Paladin I was almost all the way through the expansion Retribution. I did competitive raiding AND PvP, and was the highest rated Paladin in the entire Blackout Battlegroup for some time during either S5 or S6.
Vanilla and the first two expansions were all good, they all had their strenghts and weaknesses, but it is true that world PvP (or outdoors pvp if you will) was largely dead in TBC, it was fixed with a bit of band-aid during Wotlk thanks to Wintergrasp. I wouldn't mind whichever expansion was used for Legacy, but if I had to choose I'd choose progression servers over a period of 6 years, 2 years of vanilla, 2 years of tbc, 2 years of wotlk.
>>336108867
Doing the same quest every day to grind reputation is a bad substitute for content.
Lack of content has always been WoW's main problem.
>>336109070
Sadly they never developed world pvp in the game. The most you really saw was zerging between soutshore and tarren mill or incidental world pvp. Incidental group pvp was definitely the most fun I had pvping in wow.
They kind of left out the WORLD of WARcraft in WoW.
They had a chance to make contested zones like DAoC where you could capture them for access to specific resources / questing areas / dungeons or actually implement world pvp in some way. Instead they went down the instanced AV style pvp route which was a huge disappointment.
first DLC and it already started turning shit
/v/ is literall aids, if there was any wow before vanilla you people would say that it was only good one and else is shit,
same like all other games, for example dark souls 3,
hell why am i even reading this and even replying to u retards
>>336057947
>That's the most retarded thing I've heard all day.
This is the most retarded thing i've heard all day. You have to be seriously ignorant of the game's history to believe that arenas weren't a complete disaster and had an immensely damaging effect on the game.
>the type and quality of player they attract (shite)
>the welfare gear (not having to work for your gear and just losing 10 games/week devaluing dungeons and raids)
>the impact it has had on class design (all classes have similar playstyles)
>the segregation of people in a mmorpg (instead of a comunity of people knowing each other and the other faction)
>instanced pvp cancer instead of world pvp (repetitive, meaningless running around a pillar humping it for 30 mins)
Blizzard literally said that they were a mistake.
>>336109215
Instanced pvp does make some sense in that it doesn't lead to a complete monopoly by one faction or one guild on the server and it is always balanced instead of one side completely outnumbering the other.
Though they could have had some way to balance being outnumbered like a passive buff or stronger npc support to the disadvantaged side.
>>336109215
I think the best way to achieve world PvP is to not be of the mind that access to world PvP must be something that must be available all the time 24/7. They could've, as you suggested, have contested zones that can be captured between factions, once every couple days or so, say 3 days. Every 3 days, both factions fight it out over control of that zone, the victorious side gains access to rewarding quests and resources, and then 3 days later they fight again.
And a number of other smaller activites like that, and you'll have world pvp more or less ''all the time'', but not every second of every minute.
>>336109314
This.
In vanilla whoever had the best raiding gear typically had the advantage in pvp, but incredibly high stam pvp gear also gave people a fighting chance.
In TBC pvp was effectively impossible unless you specifically did arenas to farm your "pvp gear". Even if you had the best raiding gear, you didn't have resilience and were therefore totally useless.
When they started changing class design around PvP forsaking PvE it became pretty obvious how much their focus on PvP arenas was shitting on the game as a whole.
And instanced PvP has always been a lazy, small scale, repetitive, and boring PvP activity.
>>336109337
>Instanced pvp does make some sense in that it doesn't lead to a complete monopoly by one faction or one guild on the server and it is always balanced instead of one side completely outnumbering the other.
>Though they could have had some way to balance being outnumbered like a passive buff or stronger npc support to the disadvantaged side.
Instanced pvp doesn't prevent this from happening in fact it also tends to happen inside the instanced pvp area
>>336109641
True, one faction typically has a dominant pvp guild and if you get matched up against them you're fucked. But there is also a chance of getting matched up against other people.
In world pvp usually one faction or guild would always dominate the server.
The only real solution to that was the 3 faction approach of DAoC to keep a balance of power and prevent one faction from always staying on top.
>>336109821
I'm definitely not arguing in favor of instanced pvp, just pointing out I can see how the developers were convinced to go for it.
I think instanced pvp is probably the worst thing to happen to WoW.
>Flying
>Retarded gear scaling based on level differences
>Arenas
TBC killed world PVP and cemented the "its just ganking lowbies" meme into the player base.
>>336109641
>>336109821
Doesn't even matter about faction.
Arenas turned it from a faction vs faction into a comp vs comp.
Arena's will never be balanced until they effectively make everyone the same 3 classes
>>336110137
Aside from Isle of Quel'Danas you're correct
>>336110295
That was a special snowflake, and all IOQ was is the precursor to the stupid shit we got like WG, TB and Assram
But IOQ and WG before timers were what world PVP zones should be.
>>336057645
i don't care. i'd play either of them
anything's better than wod
>>336110232
I was just referring to the instanced PvP zones, arenas are an entirely different piece of garbage.
You're right it is entirely about composition. There is always one build that overwhelms all others. The maps consist of running around exploiting line of sight and trying to get your burst off to kill one of their guys then waiting for cooldowns again if you failed to kill them. Arena has always been awful. It also attracted a totally different type of player.
>Flying mounts that killed immersion and world pvp
>better
>>336108776
>keys, rep grinds, and attunements were new to TBC
Did you forget about UBRS key, Hydraxian Waterlods, ZG rep, Argent Dawn rep, AQ rep, and Ony/MC/BWL attunement?
Badge farming was fine for most of TBC, because the gear you got just helped you get a leg up early on in the progression of raiding. It was 2.4 that fucked it all up.
WotLK further fucked it by making it core from the get-go.
Dailies were honestly fine for TBC. It was WotLK where that shit got way, way out of hand.
>loot hallway
What do you mean by this?
>>336099560
Pick one
>Welfare epics and appealing to casuals is why TBC is bad
>1337 eSports 2skill4u is why TBC is bad
TBC was much easier than vanilla and why WoW became so popular. If you want a reminder at how tediously difficult vanilla was go try a legacy server for five minutes and remember it took nearly a hundred hours to reach level cap.
I did it.
I regret it.
It was a shitty way to spend my time and it seemed great then because we hadn't seen 10 more expansions that only offered the same thing.
>>336062142
>I'll never understand why people say that WotLK is the best.
Because it was their first time playing obviously.
>>336110461
Yep, honestly i'd have to say vanilla PVP was when it was at its most balance.
>inb4 hurr durr roguecraft 1v1 vids
Meh, every class had their niche in wPVP, the only weak class that comes to mind would be priests
>>336110524
>TBC is why wow became popular
>not counting the 6 million subs WOW had before TBC even launched
>>336110704
>only weak class is priests
Jesus son, do you not remember shadow priests?
Those fuckers were nigh unstoppable before the average player got geared.
I'd say Warlocks were the sad shits.
>>336064412
this is so fucking dumb that i'm out of fucks to give today.
>>336110783
>players double after TBC
remember teh six million.
>>336110783
Somewhat related note, but I find it ridiculous that people say WotLK was the best because it had the peak for playercount.
What people fail to realize is that peaks are followed by a downward trend.
One that started during WotLK and continued to ramp down until WoD, when it spiked up for the launch, only to fucking nosedive shortly afterwards.
I don't have the chart handy, but that shit is telling.
>>336110516
The keys for every heroic requiring revered rep is what I was referring to.
The attunement chains were much more time consuming in TBC. All you had to do for MC / BWL attunement was one quest in one run to BRD or UBRS. The onyxia attunement was more of a hassle.
Hydraxian Waterlords was just for aqual quintessence to get to rag, a way to slow down MC clear time.
ZG rep, Argent Dawn rep, AQ rep were all associated with raids and not daily quest rep farming. I wasn't clear on that. Reputation farming was in vanilla, but it became a much larger part of TBC. It was a bad mechanic in both instances.
Loot hallways are dungeons that are completely linear with no deviation or alternative routes from start to finish.
WoW is and has always been pure shit desu.
>Resilience killed PvP
Can we stop this meme? I can tell none of you ever played as a non-paladin healer
>MS warr's mortal strike crits you for 3000
>MS warr's execute crits you for 8000
>you die
>you are afflicted by cheap shot
>you are afflicted by kidney shot
>you die
>>336110704
>>336110858
Yeah shadow priests were unstoppable in vanilla. I had an undead shadow priest and would routinely smoke entire groups with just SWP, devouring plague, mind blast, fear, and shield.
Its pretty sad but my favorite memory of WoW was getting the butcher and saving up and getting firey on it. I felt unstoppable as a rogue.
>>336111203
Player 1 has resilience gear
Player 2 does not
Player 1 always wins.
Sorry but resilience gear was the worst thing to happen to pvp.
>>336111045
The huge downward trend was a result of the original wow dev team all getting moved to the titan project during WotLK. After they all left the game mostly became awful and just cashed in on its name.
>>336111313
Why? PVP players should get gear that makes them better at killing other players or lasting longer against other players. PVE fags should not be on the same level as PVP players.
>>336062142
PvP balance was decent after they patched DK/prot pal and before they introduced Shadowmeme. Hell I'd argue that PvP was at it's peak around S6/S7.
>>336111420
>This is why pvp gear is a bad idea
>but why? we should cater to a specific group of players at the cost of the game!
I can't think of any other MMO that had PVP gear
Do you guys think, if the original wow dev team was coerced back into developing WoW, could ''reboot'' a good WoW MMO with new expansions from Wotlk and onwards, essentially declaring Cata, MoP, WoD and Legion non-canon? I'm thinking Blizzard releasing Legacy servers Vanilla, then working through TBC and Wotlk again, and then continuing from that point onwards with new expansions?
>>336111420
PvE players should have had a unique stat on their gear that negated resilience.
ARENA KILLED WoW it s was the start of sitting in captials and doing dailies for gold. It split the player base and meant pve progression meant jack shit in pvp. Classes got nerfed and buffed based on their pvp standings which basically became an arms race between mage. rogue, warrior.
>>336111554
Why? You have gear designed to fight mobs, not players. Fuck off.
>>336111490
PVE fags get gear
So PVP fags should too
>>336111553
Emerald nightmare please
Anyone remember when arenas had tornadoes and no time limits?
>>336111556
No it didn't, 90% of top glads were illidan/KJ killers too, items like the spire of karabor and vial of the sunwell were GOAT PvP items
Plus who can forget glaive rogues?
>>336111490
Every MMO that has come after WOW usually has PVP gear in some sense.
Note: no game has ever come close to having a good PVP scene copying WOW's system.
Really, open world PVP with economic value on your actions is what PVP MMOs should be about, even vanilla WOW economy was fueled by PVP
>Need your epic mount
>gotta farm gold
>Better hope XxXsephiroth doesn't gank you too much when you farm mats to sell
>Because of this prices for mats were generally higher on PVP servers, same goes for good BOE gear.
>>336111602
Separating players into 2 different gear sets is a bad design. Wouldn't you have liked to carry your pvp gear into pve settings other than just the overpowered weapon? Same with pve players who would like to carry their pve gear into pvp settings.
Having a specific pvp gear set with a specific stat that immediately made you more powerful than all players without it was stupid.
Do you guys think people would have quit TBC if it had garrisons?
>>336111764
>Wouldn't you have liked to carry your pvp gear into pve settings
No. Because I don't like PVE. If I wanted PVE gear, I would've had it by now.
>Having a specific pvp gear set with a specific stat that immediately made you more powerful than all players without it was stupid.
How is that a bad thing. You got that epic set that is made to kill players with, so why wouldn't you have an advantage?
>>336111764
Thank god it took them after 5 expansions to realize PVP gear was stupid.
>>336110908
>double
>WOW has never had more then 12 million
>>336111830
Yeah, too bad normalizing PVP damage is also stupid.
>>336111716
>Every MMO that has come after WOW usually has PVP gear in some sense.
And every mmo that has come out after wow has crashed and burned
>Really, open world PVP with economic value on your actions is what PVP MMOs should be about, even vanilla WOW economy was fueled by PVP
economic value my ass
The player must feel that it wants to do something within the game context for no gain at all
The moment you add a carrot it becomes a chore and its meaning changes
>lets raid that town to annoy them
>haha faggets
>Lets grind honor
>>336111602
Then make gear for crafters who must not ill a player or a mob, role players would be granting gear for just talking
>>336111827
IDK, I killed demigos, demonic lords of entire legions of world devouring demons, the lord of death himself, yet with the weapons and trinkets they dropped I can't even dent your armor covered in nerf foam.
-Thats- retarded.
>>336111827
>having a set for mobs
>having a set for players
^Stupid shitty design that forces people who want to pvp to grind pvp gear instead of letting people use their pve gear sets in pvp.
PvP should let people get gear, it just shouldn't be a specific set that gives a unique "pvp only" stat.
PvP should have just been an avenue to get comparable gear instead of an entirely different set.
>>336099418
Some popular pvp guy wrote recently, WoW did not go to shit because some people queued up for arenas. And I agree with him. The whole esports thing died pretty quickly for obvious reasons, while turning the game more and more casual is why half the playerbase left at this point. Arenas will always stay as a niche for the turbo nerds, which is the exact opposite of the audience blizzard is catering to for the past years. PvP gear was in classic always an very good alternative for some slots, but in tbc it did not require you to stop doing anything else than farming up your rank in warsong and arathi, you just need to have a higher rating, that's an improvment. I just wish they introduced rated bgs when there were still server communities
>>336111963
Nah, Economic value drives PVP naturally in good MMOs.
Ive you turn the carrot into a generic grind, like honor and shit, it becomes tedious and fucking boring.
But if you create a PVP only zone where you have to gather rare materials from rare mobs, and anyone can gank you at any time, that just gets players into a moshpit of PVP interaction
Its why Flying and the lack of profession mats killed world PVP, when you have druids seeding the economy with cheap ore due to flying and everyone gets thousands of gold daily, its easy to see why wPVP died.
>>336057645
the gameplay and dungeons were way better but imo the environment and setting was kind of ass. way too much "power rangers" vibe if you know what I mean.
>>336111827
this the problem right here
>>No. Because I don't like PVE. If I wanted PVE gear, I would've had it by now.
because the same argument could be said about leveling up normally or vs having xp boost items
or i want to get max level leveling content like dungeons must as fast and dumbed down.
>>336112228
Yeah cause zones like WG, TB and Ashran worked real well.
>>336112228
>But if you create a PVP only zone where you have to gather rare materials from rare mobs, and anyone can gank you at any time, that just gets players into a moshpit of PVP interaction
Its literally the same only that you repalce honor with herbs or minerals
and you make the entire world but that zone worthless
>>336112034
But that makes no sense, for the simple reason that raid bosses requires almost twice the hit rating than pvp does. Also the item budged goes to shit because a lot goes to stamina instead pure damage.
I do remember that I was with my enhancer during zul aman within the first spots on the meters with almost full season 2, but that was only because the item level is so high and easier to obtain than raid gear
>>336112228
Druid flight form can only pick up herbs, not ore.
Instanced PVP was the most retarded thing they've ever done.
Really though, if you want arena based PVP that is balanced, go play fucking dota or TF2
>>336112426
except its not, instanced PVP is all bout the honor grind, world PVP is resource grind.
And its open world PVP, which means that idea of "lets go gank those guys" still remains, where as instanced PVP is just honor grinding set to 11
>>336112147
people who are the cause of the game dying not believing they are the cause, what a shocker.
The fact is that the majority of of pvpers dont need to interact with their server they get gold from pvp they can level in pvp they can just sit in capitals and farm/grind gear. now tell me who is more damaging to a community people who don't interact with or those who want welfare epics.
>>336111764
Yes, this was the case in tbc. Especially rogues and resto druids did that. In wotlk even more so. Playing a warrior with half pvp half heroic icc gear with arp sockets was the most efficient build you could go for. It's just impossible to do these days, because the numbers are out of control
>>336112492
Higher stamina vs higher damage is fine, which is what vanilla did. When you introduce a stat like resilience it means that you must have that stat to pvp or you lose 100% of the time.
Farming resilience gear was just another time sink.
Really PvP should not have gear at all. Players should all get the same gear to make it about player skill.
>>336057645
hi sorry if this isnt the nost thread. just wanted to say since nost went down ive been in a slump and thinking about kiling myself. this weekend i bought and played FF14 for 32 hours and got to lv 30 but it just made me miss vanilla wow more... plus the fact that its basically mop mechanics with ff gameplay...
>>336112663
I don't really know how you got gold through playing arenas in tbc, unless you get paid to carry people. Also when I played from season 1 to 4, there was very much of a server community going on, people talking about the good players on their realm forums, I don't even know if these exist anymore. If you don't like instanced pvp at all, I can respect that, but it did certainly not hurt the community. It's the cross server shit that turns everything anonymous and meaningless
>>336112592
It doesnt you retard
you are only doing it to pick up the herbs, the players have no saying in where and how the engagement develop
How would fighting over some herbs would be more meaningful and fun than riding questing objective areas, a capital city, questing hubs and so on?
In vanilla the nesignway camp was camped 24/7 for example
>its not instanced
yes it is, you are confined into one zone for no other reason other than the developers are forcing you to
>>336112871
I'm probably going to kill myself and my wife's son if they don't release legacy servers withing this year desu.
Everything wrong with WoW started with TBC.
The only WoW game worth playing and good is Vanilla. Everything after that is trash.
>>336113068
>Vanilla
>good
Pick one. Literally everything after WC2 is pure trash.
>>336112791
I don't know what kind of WoW you used to play, but pve gear was viable for the very most time. The difference was not that big as it is today.
And I don't know about current WoW, but I'm sure you can get your full arena set in no time, better people don't have better gear anymore and you can shine against people with all the same items
>>336113173
Shut the fuck up that's just because you don't have any friends.
>>336112923
but it was the start tbc brought dailies, no good can come from sitting in capitals and grinding.
>>336113068
lol vanilla it was good in some ways but was horribly broken but people who fondly vs tbc remember vanilla probably played warrior mage or rogue. didn't have any responsibilities besides high school
>>336113208
PvE gear was viable until resilience was introduced. Then you literally stood no chance without resilience. You could be full bis raid gear and still get mangled by someone with mid-level pvp gear just because you can no longer crit them and your damage is reduced dramatically.
>>336113463
this in fact pvp gear became so easy to farm post season 1 you could fast track into heroics & kara
>>336113335
How did dailies in tbc make you sit in the capital? There was only 1 npc in lower city that gave a random killing quest for dungeons. You had to grab it and then walk yourself to the dungeons and get it done. The other 3 daily quest zones were a blessing when I played healers and a tank, because back then these specs did absolute zero damage, so traditional farming was really uneffective compared to questing where you use or gather things. They were also optional and not required like in panda land. If you don't like them, don't do them and just raid or whatever. Still agree that they were annoying sometimes.
>>336113463
This is just so wrong, I doubt you even played the game at the time or you were an absolute shitter. The top pvpers ALWAYS used some high end pve items if they had access to them
>>336113831
your right i remember prot/rets in s8 or s7 i think running pretty much only 2pc and pvp trinket and the rest was pve gear, use to do a disgusting amount of damage too was funny
>>336113831
>SOME of the top pve items IF they had access to them
>had tons of resilience if they wanted to be viable.
PvP sets consisted entirely of resilience gear and the occasional errant BIS pve item.
Bottom line is you had to have max resilience if you wanted to compete in pvp. No PvE player stood a chance without tons of resilience.
You are a shit bag who clearly pvped only since you started playing in MoP.
You are full of shit, retarded, or a troll
>>336114205
I guess this is what people wanted it to be like, since this wotlk arena server was so popular for years. The damage was just so damn bursty and high, it did not even matter that much if you wear pve or pvp gear. You really had options if you wanna have more output or take more damage
>>336107568
>TBC
>three capitals
?
>>336114563
exodar, silvermoon and shatt
>>336114351
It really doesn't matter if they introduced resilience or just more health on items to make it a onehit show vanilla used to be like. Tbc was overall much slower than vanilla pvp, because of the health and dmg output ratios. The damage barley increased compared to the health pools and then looking at wotlk it became the exact opposite, casters oneshotting people with pve or pvp gear, didn't even matter much. I'm not gonna talk about the other expansions because it became shit for other reasons
