>sits at 32 on the tier list
>has no representation or use in tournaments
>half the pros think he should be higher
>other half think he's the worst character in the game
>neither side can prove anything because nobody will use him
Why must life be such suffering for our boy?
Personally I think he's a fuckton better than he was in Melee, at least one of the best swordfighters in Smash 4.
>torneyfagging
>for Smash4
need to rethink your life, mate.
>>335766469
>not playing Smash competitively
Enjoy your scrub life.
>>335766050
>clone
D R O P P E D
R
O
P
P
E
D
>>335766987
>still screaming this meme after 15 years
He's a lot more different from Marth in 4, and a lot better than him, too.
>>335766050
The unfun character to play against.
>>335767306
There is way more unfun characters to deal with in this game than roy.
>>335766050
he falls fast as fuck and his recovery is pretty meh. He felt pretty good at first, but these days it kinda feels like his power and knockback is lacking compared to other characters.
>>335766821
Might as well play Melee at the very least
>>335767306
who's fun to fight then?
I thought people hated keepaway and gimmicks, and Roy has neither
>>335767838
He's still one of the strongest and fastest characters overall, and the lack of major endlag for his moves is ridiculous. Granted his jump and recovery aren't very good but if you're good/smart you won't engage in an aerial duel and try not to get knocked off the stage, similar to Little Mac.
>>335767908
Melee isn't more competitive than Sm4shIt's just more fun
I like Roy but it should have been lyn desu.
Frankly if shields weren't so good, he'd be up there.
But all you have to do is shield his laggy move and he's combo food, sadly. Fun to play though.
>>335767265
true memes never die.
also no one fucking uses martin in this game, there are better characters to invest your time with.
>>335768106
Roy falls extremely fast.
just fall to the ground and grab them before they grab you. I do this often and it's a legitimate option for shielders.
>>335766050
You should be glad your piece of shit marth clone is actually in the roster, faggot. All thanks to Japan's shit taste
>>335768106
Shields got nerfed in the second-to-last patch in both strength and with an increase to hitstun, which helped Roy's game a lot.
>>335768234
But then it becomes a game of predicting, if they know you'll empty hop you'll get jabbed or something, and other characters have plenty of get off me tools, especially the high tiers.
That's why i said he was fun.
>>335768021
Confirmed for not having a single clue what you're talking about.
>>335768502
Sorry, you're right, he's the weakest character in the game and can't recover at all.
Roy needs a better grab game and more combo potential, make his utilt not the laggiest move to throw out and I think he'd be great.
>>335768883
people were saying Roy could be high as B tier at one time. What happened?
>>335766050
Roy and Roy memers can go fuck themselves.
>>335768976
Nobody uses him in tournaments at all, even the ones who argue in his favor.
>>335769009
>>335766987
>>335768245
>These are the same people who wanted wolf in the game
pottery.
>>335769236
No I'm not. Nobody actually likes Roy. FE fags don't like Roy. Smash 4 fags don't like Roy. Melee fags don't like Roy. Only people who picked him in Melee as a kid because he had fire like Roy.
>>335768883
Nah, I wouldn't say that, But his moves absolutely don't have 'a major lack of endlag,' and saying he has a bad aerial game 'similar to Little Mac' is casual as fuck. Anybody who thinks Roy, or even Little Mac are completely incompetent off the ground are simply regurgitating bs rumors they've heard.
>>335769372
I started liking Roy when I picked him up in PM. Started liking him even more when I saw his sm4sh redesign, even though I don't play the game. Also, FE6 is one of my favorite FE games, but yeah, Roy's garbage in that game.
>>335767908
like anyone here would be worth a damn. No point in getting gud at melee now, because 6 or 7 guys get all the money anyway. This is what happens when a game gets old, but meleefags are retarded and blind.
>>335769372
>I don't like something, that means no one else does, PAY ATTENTION TO ME!!
And why do people keep bringing up Fire Emblem 6? It has nothing to do with Smash Bros. Roy sucking in FE6 doesn't matter one bit to how he is in Smash.
Roy is arguably the worst FE, only possibly better than Lucina.
>>335769728
What does a melee fag actually make? 20k a year at best?
>>335767306
It's smash 4. Almost the entire cast is unfun to fight, it's just how the game is.
>>335769372
Complete shit. I liked Roy, but hated how the game promoted him. He wrecked shit up until the point where he hit level cap and everyone started naturally surpassing him.
And that's much more of a problem with the game in general than Roy.
>>335770054
Mac vs Mac are fun.
>tfw Marth is somewhat viable now in the right handsyfw he gets buffed again
>>335770279
"Viable" in this case means "spamming Fair all day every day".
>>335770480
Not all that different from Sheik then
>>335770480
nah b, that's bretty good now that its range was boosted, but many of his moves in general are nice
up throw reliable emergency kill
jab and dolphin slash quick as ever
nair and uair are very quick, bair and fair are powerfuldown smash and dair are garbage
not as nice as brawl or melee, but yknow
>>335770152
Most mirrors are fun, but they're rare if the character isn't a top tier like bayo. When I got the game and mained Mac I had a lot of intense mirrors, but that was week one and all the good Macs moved on to more viable characters and the casuals stopped playing Mac online cause they were too free.
The most fun I had since then was cloud mirrors.
>>335770480
>Not fighting like a man at close range.
>>335770673
Fighting Cloud is awesome due to the handicap.
>>335770574
I'm not a Meleefag, but I have to agree that some characters should have gone back to being like they were in Melee or at least close to it. Ganondorf, Peach, and Marth especially. Meta Knight shouldn't have been nerfed as hard as he was from Brawl, too. Everyone else's changes from Melee and Brawl made them a lot better, but the global changes 4 made and kept from Brawl should be rectified, like maintaining momentum from ground to air and not being so floaty.
Roy is a pussy bitch is is probably the worst lord in a Fire Emblem game
>>335771098
Meh, the game is pretty balanced as far as I'm concerned
The shittiest part about it is how BIG some stages are, stocks take way too long and recovery is WAY too easy. The mechanics are very nice, but the characters just feel too... small. Stocks take way too long as a result.
Imagine how much worse the top tiers would be if their recovery wasn't OP as hell? Shiek and Bayo can recover from just about anywhere.
>>335769372
Every time, like clockwork. No-one ACTUALLY likes X, they're just pretending, or idiots, or children, or all of the above.
>>335771356
They can recover so well because of how big the blast zones are. Shrink the blast zones and nerf their recoveries and fights would be a lot faster.
>>335766050
Doesn't matter where he is, he has poor matchups with the high tiers so the most he can do is shit on everyone around his placement or below.
>>335771565
According to who? No one who plays competitively uses him.
>>335771356
stages arent any bigger than melee
the slower fall speed, lower general damage/knockback and lack of ledgehogging are what allow characters to recover from farther
>>335771647
Stanic Manny.
He changed his name to something else.
>>335771647
>According to who
The good players who chooses characters above C tier.
C tier is the dividing line between what's viable and what isn't.
Roy is easy to deal with because he suffers against shield.
Top tiers have good OoS options and Roy's recovery is lackluster to say the least.
It's not hard to understand.
I cant understand how the tourney level players get so good. I'd consider my self very good at the game. ive won locale college tourneys at have a 95% win rate in for glory with over 7k matches played.
but when i fight against some of the professionals / pros i get my ass handed to me. its like they know every move im going to make . on top of that some of the tech they pull off is retarded. I cant beat these people and i honestly dont think ill ever get that good.
i recently fought a guy on for glory who was at this level. i looked up his name handle online after and lo and behold i found his twitter and hes a "professional smash 4 player"
i can only assume its some sort of time leap technique
>>335771764
>stages arent any bigger than melee
See Bioni's leg or the KI stage on WII U.
>>335771895
>They know what i'm going to do
Yes, and they also know what moves to throw out in any given situation, when you see a move thrown it isn't random. It's a setup, and once it hits you, you are confirmed to get damage on you.
You have to out predict them and bait them to play your style tbqh.
>>335771825
Smash Wiki doesn't mention either of those as problems Roy has.
>>335771895
>7000 matches
>In for glory
This literally doesn't matter.
Professional players play way the fuck more than that
And they do it against good players, not against local tourneys which is usually filled with a wide variety of people but generally low to mid levels.Also chances are you aren't learning how to play right and you have to always be facing people better than you to improve.
>>335769728
Or you know, they play for fun?
>>335772190
Smash wiki won't teach you very much from the game.
Him being laggy is a commonly known issue.
Good characters aren't laggy.
>>335772398
His only lag is the endlag on his Smash attacks, everything else has low endlag and hardly any startup.
>>335770126
Roy sucks in pretty much every way. He's not particularly great in his game stats-wise, his lack of promotion until super late makes him not only a weak, mandatory unit but an EXP black hole, and personality-wise he manages to be the most bland lord of any of them, including NES Lords.
>>335772481
He has no pressure and can be shield grabbed unless he was doing aerials.
He doesn't have enough time to short jump a second time to keep that pressure going.
His As are relatively fast but lead to nothing
His combo game is bad and he has problems finishing people offIf he was good someone would have picked him up by now. Even Ike has a guy playing as him.
>>335772839
He has more combos than you account for but it is no where near enough to be viable.
Also he's not that laggy at all.
His frame speed is honestly one of his strengths.
>>335772839
If he was really that bad there wouldn't be several top players saying he should be higher-ranked.
>>335766050
>half the pros think he should be higher
Pretty much every top player agrees he's garbage bottom-tier.
>>335766050
You forgot one:
>is one of the weakest characters in his own goddamn game
>>335772839
This is literally all the opposite in my experience.
>Fair easily.
>Grabbing fast to follow.
>Spamming counter.
>F-smash after blocking.
>Getting back from the fucking nowhere due the ridiculous edgegrab distance.
Yeah, guys, if I were fighting Roy I would like to apply a combo if there isn't much trouble.
>>335773057
>Overall, while Roy has been buffed directly, his standing relative to the cast is highly debatable, since most veterans were buffed to varying degrees. This is apparent in his tier ranking at 32nd, with his placement being among the most contentious of all characters, as while some players believe Roy has the potential to compete in tournaments, others argue he should be placed even lower, with professional players such as Abadango and Dabuz believing him to be among the worst characters in the game. This highly contrasts the early views on Roy's viability, as many initially considered him a viable high-tier character and possibly the best swordfighter in the game (including ZeRo). As such, Roy's placement remains a topic of significant debate among players.
>>335771979
He was talking about competitively legal stages.
>>335773132
FE6 has nothing to do with Smash Bros.
>>335773212
That's VERY outdated. When Roy first came out everyone thought he was amazing, yes, but nowadays most pros agree he sucks. Even ZeRo has gone back on his initial impressions and admitted that Roy is bad.
>>335766050
He's that bad? I remember when he launched he seemed very strong. Did they nerf him or something or did people just figure him out?
>>335773340
Oh well, I enjoy using him and I can use him fine, so that's all that matters.
>>335773430
He's been buffed from his introduction, actually.
>>335772360
na, they shitpost.
>>335773430
He wasn't nerfed as much as everyone else got buffed, and in the down time between they figured him out.
>>335773430
The latter. When he first came out, people saw a very fast sword character that can KO at 60% and thought he was amazing. Then they realized he has no combos at mid and high percents, no useful kill confirms, is easy to combo, has a sizeable amount of landing lag on his aerials and bad autocancel windows, few safe approach options, few options on shield, and has no range.
>>335773836
Interesting. Yeah he seemed to have similar problems to his Melee self. He needed to get in a lot and he didn't really have the tools to do so yet he could do some crazy KOs (like you were saying) at low percents. Still I didn't think he struggled that much. Has anybody been able to pull anything off with him at a tournament? Thanks Japan.
>>335774004
Sethlon from Texas is a decent mid-level player and StaticManny/Oni Heero/All Might is a Sonic main from Florida that sometimes uses Roy. Other than those two, pretty much no one else uses him. No one has ever placed well with him at anything larger than a local.
>>335767265
>better than Marth
U takin the piss m8?
>>335767306
i guess youve never played against a little mac
So who's the best character? Bayonetta?
>>335766050
Roy's entire issue is that, ironically, he can't kill. He has a hard time getting stocks off since he has to commit to get kills and committing is the LAST thing you want to do in this game.
He probably would be mid/high-mid if he had a safe and consistent way to kill. It'd help a lot if his uthrow wasn't complete garbage.
>>335774275
She's certainly the funnest to play.
>>335774483
>funnest to play
>same shitty "combos" over and over
>>335774108
Sethlon usually only uses him in PM though. His combos with PM Roy are crazy.
>>335774561
>same shitty combos over and over.
You have no idea what she can do anon.Her moves combo into eachother better than any other character in the game.
>8 different zero to deaths.
Mfw Dive Kick, into down air, into footstool off stage.
>>335774613
Sethlon uses Roy in Smash 4. He only competes in locals every now and then though and doesn't take the game all that seriously.
>>335774798
Dive kick dair is not true and only a retard would get hit by something like that.
>>335774965
It's true if you read that they DI inwards.
Some people don't even DI because they don't expect getting dive kicked off stage, or they DI inwards trying to get back to the ledge.
She also has other crazy shit, she can do.
People just aren't creative enough.
Bayonetta is the character in the game that you can be most creative with. You don't have to do that to win though.
>>335774275
yup, best character in the game. almost her own rank. Shes also not fun to play agaisnt at all because of her flowchart easy as fuck combos.
>>335775216
>she's different so I have to adapt to a new playstyle and that's not fun
fuck off scrub
>>335766050
He's shit in his own game, so it makes sense he is shit here too.
>>335775216
also she carry's bad players
>>335769236
You're an idiot if you think the similarities between Wolf and Fox/Falco's move set is anywhere close to the similarities between Roy and Marth.
>>335775216
She is a blast to play as though.
>>335775352
She does.
I've been able to beat well-respected players in my local by using her.
She's too fun to stop using though. The combos are insane.
>>335773132
But that's wrong. He just promotes late, his growths are very balanced. Not to mention his sword makes up for him being underleveled if you didn't feed him exp.
>>335775340
shitty bayonetta player detected
>>335774483
>The same one or two combos over and over again
>her ways to rack up damage is the same as her ways for killing so that makes her style very linear and repetitive
>slow run, rolls and ground moves
>forces opponents to play super defensive so the game drags
>unsatisfying because of how you throw attacks for free and you are never punished for them and risk vs reward is not a thing with her
I don't think so. I found her to be very disappointing
>>335775557
shitty casual that can't DI or read detected
You have 10 seconds to name an ability that's more bullshit than witch time.
you are forgetting his shit range OP.
no point in a sweetspot that requres you to hug an opponent. at least in PM it was actually the center of his blade.
>>335770126
roy is just marth without the self doubt personality wise.
>>335775712
>only counter that gets weaker every time you use it
>bullshit
>>335775415
its fun untill you realise that your easy combos can rarely be di'd out of.
and trying fighting a really good player using bayo. its impossible to di.
>>335775340
>durrr just adapt lel
no character should have 0 to death combos while the rest of the cast doesnt. cloud and ryu are different but they arent nearly as broken as bayo.
the character is toxic
>>335775712
Lumas
Corrin's xbox hueg counter
Bayonetta mirror match
>>335775635
lol so i was right. if you knew your shit youd know that a good bayonetta player will make diing impossible. but your just a shitter getting carried
Roy is regarded as bottom 10 in the game by many right now, the official tier list was for 1.1.3
Updated Tier list when?
>>335775621
>Fair strings off stage
>amazing edgeguarding abilities
>god-tier recovery you can mix people the fuck up
>Tilts combo into aerials,
>Tilts combo into specials
>Specials combo into aerials
>Aerials combo into specials.
>Can do absurd kills off witch time.
MFW.
1. Up tilt
2. Down air (shooting them to the side of the stage)
3. Aerial Side b
4. Up- B
5. Aerial side b
6. Up- B
7. Up- Air.
Yes you can get absurd kills off of witch-timing someone at 50%
>Opponents play super defensive allowing you easy grabs
>The only character in the game that can be COMPLETELY aggressive and win almost every match up.
She's a 10/10 character man. I wish more characters played the way she did.
>>335776062
>main mewtwo since release
>gets buffed a year later
>now everyone plays him
fuck off you fotm fags mewtwo is my character
>>335776062
>mewtwo went from being gutter trash to really good in a couple of patches
>shulk is still shit tier after many patches despite being one of the hardest characters to play optimally
>>335767306
That's like the entirety of the Tr4sh roster, specifically the characters worth playing.
>>335776083
>She's a 10/10 character man. I wish more characters played the way she did.
even though i'm a melee/PM fag through and through and hate how there's not half of the movement options in sm4sh than there are in those 2, if the other characters eve -APPROACHED- the levels of bullshit fun bayo can be i'd be a lot more accepting of it.
>>335776314
There really needs to be more characters like her.
The game would need 4 stocks again in competitive play.
>>335775826
>counter with a 11 frames of invincibility, compared to your average counter that has 1 frame, so you can still miss your grab even if you read it
>she is able to act out of it in 50 frames while Marth acts out of it in 60 and others take even longer
>if you miss the timing bat within bails you out
>you get punished the same way even if you throw out a jab or a reverse warlock punch, so everything the opponent does is high risk
This truly is a balanced move
>>335776083
You forgot that her jab is literally impossible to escape and is a free 21-ish percent.
Bullshit.
>>335776215
I really want to learn Shulk since I've been playing more Xenoblade 3D, but you're right - he's really fucking hard to use properly.
I haven't seen anyone use him lately, but Trela used to be pretty damn good. I remember watching a match were it was his Shulk against Esam's 'Chu and, while he lost, it was still super fun to watch.
>>335776927
There is this dude called Darkwolf who is pretty good. most likely the best out there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkUEb5eejC4
>>335776083
I read all of that and it didn't really make me think any differently
A character that can do everything for free is not fun to use. she feels very unrewarding, repetitive and flowcharty
I play Ike and beat still haven't been beaten by a shiek player in local games. Tiers don't mean anything if you can get in peoples heads and train them to fall for your shit.
Guys, how do I get good with Marth
>>335777225
First game was ass, but the rest was great, yeah. How exactly do you do that Monado cancelling?
>>335778030
I've seen Marths do this 3-hit kill combo...something like aerial Side-B (first hit), then one hit of nair canceled by landing into an upsmash? I think. Something like that, but I dunno how to do it. My hands hate me.
I can't even jab into Fsmash with him.
>>335776767
>her jab is literally impossible to escape.
You could smash DI it.
>>335777604
>she feels repetitive and flowcharty
If you chose to play her that way then yeah. But this character has so many unique combos that haven't really been overused.
>unrewarding
She rewards players a stock off of their opponents tiniest mistake.
Might be the most rewarding character in the game desu.
>>335778030
You fair into shield breaker
>>335778246
The first game was ass but it is to be expected. I main Shulk and imo Fox is by far his worst matchup.
Monado cancelling is when the art activates when you are stuck in recovery frames or "lag". the activation cancels them and you act out of them immediately
>>335778486
What's the timing on that? I swear, I'd be able to get so much better at games in general if people made more frame-descriptive stuff like Beefy Smash Doods.
I can't get those evade invincibility frames in MH4U for shit because I don't really know when they are.
replace roy with stahn from tales of destiny, for he is the superior fire wielding ORA ORA swordsman
>>335778445
>If you chose to play her that way then yeah
She is designed that way. she is as linear as Luigi was before the nerf to his down throw
What I meant by unrewarding is that she is not satisfying to play for me, she just doesn't feel fun
She is rewarding in the sense that she will give you tons of wins, no doubt about that
>>335778843
>she is as linear as Luigi
Her neutral is predictable but her combos don't have to be.
She literally has some of the best mix ups off of her combos.
I can literally drop a combo and bait an air dodge into a spike.
She can mix people the fuck up.
>>335779004
Why would I do different when her combos deal pretty much the same amount of damage and are almost un DI-able anyway?
>I can literally drop a combo and bait an air dodge into a spike.
Don't see what is so special about that. almost any character can bait air dodges into big damage. Why would I ever drop the guaranteed damage for a read anyway?
>>335779608
>Why would I ever drop the guaranteed damage for a read anyway?
I shouldn't have to answer this man. This is why you don't enjoy Bayonetta, you play too optimally to be creative.
I play Bayonetta to style. I try to be as stylish and creative as I can be so I don't become predictable.
I'm trying to optimize and push this character to new limits. That's the reason I don't always go for the guaranteed damage.
>>335780028
>you play too optimally to be creative.
True but that is how the character was designed and is the reason why I don't enjoy her
>I play Bayonetta to style
I personally don't see how she is stylish. all her moves are kicks or witch twist. that is way too boring. Not that I would consider other characters in smash to be stylish or anything, the only exception is probably Captain Falcon.
Smash just isn't the kind of game where you can be stylish. That's what anime fighters or the capcom vs series are for
>I'm trying to optimize and push this character to new limits. That's the reason I don't always go for the guaranteed damage.
That makes no sense at all. You are not pushing the character if you are not being optimal
>>335770054
this desu. The entirety of the top 10 except Sheik and ZSS are fun to fight against.
>>335780752
>I personally don't see how she is stylish
She takes her opponents up to the blast zone in a DBZ fashion. She also has some of the sickest spike combos imaginable.
>Dive kick, to down air, and you can follow up with a footstool.
I found this out by being a crazy mother fucker in tournament and dive kicking off stage to edgeguard someone.
Dive kicking offstage is incredibly dangerous and if my opponent would have air dodged I may have died.
>You are not pushing the character if you are not being optimal.
By not doing what is currently optimal I can find out new combos and tricks to further optimize a character
You can't push a character without being experimental.
I believe Bayonetta has the most combo potential in the entire game. And I'm trying to discover it.
>>335781218
>She takes her opponents up to the blast zone in a DBZ fashion
Exaggerate more why don't you? smashing people so they fly at high speeds off stage is more DBZ than her slow-ish combos
>You can't push a character without being experimental.
Yes but her best combos that have already been discovered already, some kill at 0% and they are reliable. there is not much room for improvement after that
>I believe Bayonetta has the most combo potential in the entire game
I don't think there is anyone who thinks otherwise
>>335781943
>Yes but her best combos that have already been discovered already, some kill at 0% and they are reliable. there is not much room for improvement after that
Her meta is so undeveloped it's nervewrecking man.
Do you realize how unoptimized witch-time is?
>>335782270
>Do you realize how unoptimized witch-time is?
I don't think there is much room for improvement there. she can literally do whatever so it's up to you to decide to do a combo or a charged smash or somehow spiking them
>>335783562
>I don't think there is much room for improvement there
>she can literally do whatever
How can you be so contradictory?
>>335767265
>roy better than marth in smash 4
it's not summer 2015 anymore
>bring my Wii U into campus
>don't have Roy bought because fuck piss-poor clones who are also piss-poor chars in their own game
>everyone complains about it to my face
>they still play the game anyways, even when there's another setup run by an actual pro player on blast
>end up having on average like 12 people gathered around my TV, despite missing an "integral game character"
I love being right.While we're at it, screw Dreamland and always items on always.
>>335769925
100K if you're the best+ sponsor and stream money
>>335775340
She literally breaks the rules of the games as her up and side b ignore weight and the second time you use it you can't DI out.
I love how her downside is that she's supposed to have lots of startup, but Up B is frame 3.
>>335785127
her Jab also can't be SDI:d
>watch tourney play
>bayo vs anybody
>the bayo player is getting shit on, the opponent is clearly a better player
>the bayo player gets in ONE dive kick, pushes the opponent all the way to the top blast zone and kills them 2 seconds later at 20%
I LOVE that Bayo is in the game but I hope she gets a significant nerf next patch
>>335778445
>You could smash DI it.
You actually can't SDI her rapid jab. Her moveset is retarded.
>>335785257
>You can't smash di her rapid jab.
Idk how my friend is getting out of her jab then. He says that's what he's doing.
We play irl too.
>>335785213
More than just a nerf, she needs a total overhaul.
>>335766821
And you enjoy your fucking party game
>>335785370
People need to stop trying to ruin a good thing.
She was designed to be a character with insane combos.
Sakurai would literally be contradicting his design if he overhauls her.
>>335784757
What I mean is why not just do your average combo if they are not in kill %, a charged smash attack if they are or if you are close to the edge then move them and then spike them
It seems that you have 3 options to pick depending on the situation
I don't think that there are any super special witch time combos that would require optimizing.
>>335785367
if you continue the jab for like forever they'll be able to SDI it.
but it'll usually do like 10-20 atleast
>>335785417
>People need to stop trying to ruin a good thing.
That's the problem. It's not a good thing. She's pretty much ruining the game.
>>335785417
you should be able to design a insane combo character without breaking the rules of the game
>>335785370
That I don't agree with, just not let her be able to use the same combo to kill off the top at any percent. I would like to see her strength be off-stage play. She has an insane recovery so that would be the logical thing.
Also witch time is stupid as fuck, she can activate it from Samus' zair even if Samus did it from the furthest possible distance, which is retarded. If they aren't gonna nerf witch time itself, at least nerf her smashes. If the bayo fails to land a kill combo she could always bait a witch time and get a fully charged usmash kill at 60%
>>335785437
i think you can SDI out of the first 3 hits but once the rapid jab happens you're screwed.
>>335785434
What about witch time edgeguards?
>>335785480
>>335785494
She's awesome though. She still needs to be able to combo very well.
It would ruin her design and she'd no longer be worth the money I paid for her with. She doesn't need zero to deaths, but she still needs to have more combos than any other character.
>>335785601
cool, but a character basically ignoring weight of other characters isn't a good way to design a combo character.
and just because you paid a few bucks for a character doesn't mean they should be OP
>>335768050
>Melee isn't more competitive than Sm4sh
b8 post
>>335785715
I don't know why they put the weight rule in. Honestly I dont.
I feel like nerfing that may just make her balanced.
It would mean Bayonetta would have much more trouble because she'd have to kill at specific percents.
>>335785841
>she'd have to kill at specific percents.
Like every other character. Good.
>>335785213
Like that other anon said she would need a complete overhaul because her thing is fundamentally badly designed
The prime target for nerfs are witch time for obvious reasons and up-b because
>it's super fast, frame 3
>has an x-box hueg hitbox
>it opens up for all her combos
>you can throw it out and be safe even if they shield it because you can side b away o jump or whatever
but if you nerf up be in startup do that then her combos become trash and that is what her design is all about
There is no way she is going to be just be a good character. she is either the best or trash, there is no middle ground
I just don't know what the fuck were Sakurai and his team thinking when they designed her
How do you create this moveset and think it is fine?
>>335785958
she should have all of her combos still but they will only work at small windows with strict percentages.
>mfw I get a shield break at any %
>>335785715
Seriously
I thought that characters like Jigglypuff would have an easier time against Bayonetta because she gets out of combos without trying but as it turns out she gets comboed as hard as Bowser or any other character does because her moves ignore weight and gravity
Just what the fuck?
>>335785601
>>335785715
Shit, if you want a (relatively) well designed combo character, look at Sheik.
>>335786268
Shiek is boring to watch though, and bayonetta has sexy kills.
I think Ryu is a well designed combo character.
>>335786268
I'd actually point at Ryu. He was very well done
>>335785958
shell probably be nerfed, but all theyre gonna do is reduce the damage on her uair and shrink the size of her fairs first hit so it cant link as easily as a combo extender
which wont fix her at all
but the crutch shitters are gonna cry regardless because >muh character ive spent barely more than a month "learning"
>>335786268
I used to hate Sheik but I like watching her more than Bayo now, at least post-patch
Needle-setups are fun
>>335786331
Ryu always kills with a tilt to true shoryuken, it's getting stale. But otherwise pretty cool.
>>335785958
>How do you create this moveset and think it is fine?
That is honestly the case for 70% of all Smash characters (why is Marth so shitty at zoning, why is D3/Greninja/Zelda so ass, why do some characters have hoo hahs and some don't), at this point I believe they just shoot darts to decide frame data.
>>335767265
He'll always be obsolete to marth simply because his moveset promotes using his hitboxes like a retard.
>>335786389
i dont understand how you could find a character with over 10 different kill strings boring to watch.
It's a shame most bayos are flowchart and not creative.
>>335786603
>It's a shame most bayos are flowchart and not creative.
Well, someone mentioned optimization earlier. Optimization doesn't exactly promote creativity.
>>335786603
Because all you see is the opponent getting pushed to the top, it's not fun no matter how many variations of it there is. Every high level Bayo play is fishing for the opportunity to start a kill combo, regardless of percent. I like watching other character because they don't have the option, not as a guaranteed combo, so there's a lot more variation
Even though Roy's moves are incredibly powerful, he has garbage KO potential. The other problem is his shit recovery, probably top 5 worst recoveries in the game.
>>335786774
>Because all you see is the opponent getting pushed to the top, it's not fun no matter how many variations of it there is
I disagree highly.
Some of the variations are so interesting to watch.
>>335786696
I still think people should play more creatively.
I think a nerf might force Bayo mains to do that which will make me happy.
>>335766050
Roy should cease to exist.
>>335786930
It's all just side b's and up b's with a fair thrown in occasionally if the opponent DI's away, I wouldn't call it variety as much as a slight extension of the regular combo
>>335786521
Yeah there are many questionable things about smash balancing but none come close to the bullshit that is Bayonetta's design
It also completely infuriates me that this is the fourth installment in the series and they still don't know how to do hitboxes, some characters get the shittiest hitboxes imaginable and then other get the biggest hitboxes for no good reason
Greninja is actually good now tho
>>335787004
>It's all just side b's and up b's with a fair thrown
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDpqbY9XFoA
It's a lot more complex than you think.
Also you should take in to consideration that she has horizontal death strings as well.
>>335787034
>Greninja is actually good now tho
I dunno man, still feels like he has almost no safe moves to me.
>>335787034
Meanwhile the other characters stupidly large hitboxes
>>335787164
What are you even trying to do?
>>335787258
Maybe a hitbox fix is what she needs.
>>335787164
This, and he has to rely a lot on hard reads to be optimal, but if the player is skilled then I think Greninja is a really dangerous character
>>335787402
I'm just now trying to play Greninja. All the pokemon I've actually played felt funky until I put some time into them. Lucario was weird to me, and now he's one of my favorite characters (if only I could do force palm in the air). I hope I can get a feel for Greninja, too. He seems really interesting. I've never played so many pokemon before this game.
>>335787340
She needs way more than that but that would be a nice start
>>335766050
And why should we care about his tier placement? Tiers are literally just numbers.
>>335787518
post more please.
im a bayo main and this gives me wood
Seriously wtf Samurai?
>>335787518
Reduce size of hitboxes, make her combos weight dependent?
>Roy comes out
>Nostalgiafags cuming everyhere spamming muh boy and yelling how great Roy is and how he's gonna be top tier
>Ike completely shits on him
>Eventually novelty fades out in the same way Roy faded out of tourneys
>Marth steadily rises in representation as he gets buffed and people realize worst lord can't stand up to the OG
>Robing starts getting some alright results
>Dragonfeet comes out and all attention is directed there
Feels good, and hey, at least Roy is kinda better than girl Marth right?
>>335787490
He can feel odd, maybe not so good, to play at first because you expect to basically play Sheik, but he's very different. But super fun once you get the hang of it.
>>335766050
>TR4SH
>pros
>tiers
FUCK
>>335787560
Weren't Meta Knight's hitboxes fixed? They match his sword now, right? I played him before the fix, so I know how he was before.
>>335787617
Playing around with Hydro Pump is basically what drew me to try Greninja. I love options like that.
>smashfags call startup and recovery frames "lag"
I don't play many Bayonettas, but from watching some tourneys up air seems retardedly strong, and that's by itself, it looks even more ridiculous in a character than can easily carry you offscreen on the top before using the uair.
Would a knockback growth nerf be needed here?
>>335766050
>*might* be better than 32nd, but nowhere near top tier/viable solo main
>boring to play as, playstyle revolves around getting stronger hits from bad spacing
I don't see anything wrong with the situation as it stands
>>335787730
The up air isn't that strong compared to other's, the issue is that she can easily push opponents to the upper blast zone and just finish them off with an up air right underneath it.
I think it's kinda retarded that she is allowed to do TWO recoveries and don't even free fall after.
>>335787648
Not all of them were fixed
All these hitbox representations were ripped from the game after the last patch so this is after his hitboxes were "fixed"
>>335787973
I see. That's a shame. His back air is a great move.
>>335787701
>1 syllable
>3 letters
>In a game where abbreviations are used as everyday words
Makes things quick and simple to discuss once you pick up the lingo. Makes for some good commentary, too.
>>335785958
>How do you create this moveset and think it is fine?
They didn't think it was fine, basically. In one of Sakurai's Famitsu columns or some interview or whatever he said that after development on the launch cast was done and they moved on to creating DLC chars, they designed them to have special abilities no other characters had to make them stand out. Hence Ryu has his light/strong attack and move input gimmicks, Corrin has insane reach and power with the spear attacks and Bayonetta is full-on bullshit.
>>335791572
Them having gimmicks is fine but her moveset is all sorts of fucked up
Has he actually addressed the backlash to Bayonetta in a recent interview?
>>335766050
Is there ANYONE that can beat Roy?
And i mean Master Lord Roy with the Sword of Seals.
He can dodge lightning point blank, solo entire legions of enemies with a iron blade and lead an army without cadualties into a massive world war at the age of 15.
Not only he is the only lord that uses the Fire Emblem in battle, the Sword of Seals in it's full potential was able to destroy continents, create nuclear winter and kill everyone and everything on the planet.
He could canonically solo Grima, Medeus, Ashera, Naga, Lyon and all the FE Lords with one swipe of his sword.
He has his own harem consisting on princesses, dark inmortal mages and his teacher.
>>335793262
Anyone in tier 40 or higher.
>>335767306
Rosalina?
