MMOs
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Let's talk MMOs, /v/.
First up, which do you prefer;
Set classes a la WoW, Guild Wars 2, Wildstar, etc.
or
No classes like Ultima Online, just train the skills you want to make whatever kind of build you like
>>335233598
>You can choose from a enormous list of skills
>Classes are there just to provide strong passives to build a character and make some restrictions on which skills to pick ("Warrior" is strong in melee combat so you should pick melee skills but you can pick ranged skills for utility or whatever)
>Lots of builds/endless builds avaible in the endgame, some PvE encounters might constrict you to use precise builds
>You can switch between builds whenever you want
>>335234181
I like the idea but I'm not sure about the build switching. What's to stop people from becoming a jack of all trades?
>>335234329
Time
>>335234329
Build switching but not in fight. You have to return in town to switch build or something like that.
Since there are endless builds avaible leveling a character everytime would be a chore, so you just set up the build (like the itemsets on WoW) and change it.
>>335234487
>leveling a character everytime would be a chore
Just like all other leveling.
>>335234610
It never makes sense how this board supports leveling as if it's some impacting content that is relevant after it's completed. Sure, leveling in OG WoW was entertaining, but that whole experience is plausible without the XP meme. It's just being in zones and doing quests and farming.
>>335233598
This is how I think it should be:
>High maximum level (Say 9999)
>XP Increase is deterministic easy to level \ hard to level levels
>Morrowind Attributes and Skills
>Gain skills via usage, gain attributes via leveling and spending level points
>Use level points to make abilities better or increase attributes or mix of both
>Abilities are found in world where it makes sense: trainers, loot, gods, stealing off of bosses, libraries, different worlds
>Very large ability pool
>Abilities depend on skills
>skills depend on attributes
>>335234685
Why don't we forget about questing/grinding to get XP and just let people train their skills by using them? Note that not all skills need to be combat related; Ultima Online had a bunch of them.
>>335233598
A modern ultima that didnt look / play like shit would be perfection
Especially considering all the modern survival games and minecraft are using most of the mechanics it created
>>335234807
>Why don't we forget about questing/grinding to get XP and just let people train their skills by using them?
>to get XP
That's exactly what that post says.
>>335234834
I'd like to see this but how do you handle death penalties in this age?
>>335235053
Consequences.
>>>335234478
>>335235142
Oh, you're THAT guy.
>>335235357
>I'm so butthurt I have to deflect
>>335233598
Ultima Online was the best, but it is too hard to balance or to prevent everyone going tankmage
Job system from FFXI coupled with class specs from WoW (the hybrid specialisations aka healing/tanking/dps tree) would be more realistic imho
>>335234329
different roles like tank healer dps maybe, make it that you cant take ALL usefull skills at once so people have to choose who does what, also make different skills be based on different atributes so you have to gear for your role/build
>>335235053
I legitimately want to know thisfor the RPG I'm working on.
>>335235760
Ultima Online let you choose 7 skills to train. You could retrain them at any point though.
>>335235862
Single player? You could take some cues from the Souls series I guess.
>>335235923
Multiplayer.
>>335236162
Shoot some ideas then dude. Personally I think dropping full inventory is quite harsh but it does force people to think carefully before heading into a dangerous zone. It also provides that high risk for high reward feeling that many people enjoy.
>>335236331
Losing gear durability is fine.
>>335236331
Right now any dungeons reset and that's about it. I'm thinking about some form of gear durability system or deducting some money for resurrecting.
>>335233598
>MMORPG.com
I'm surprised that site hasn't died yet.
>>335236438
Go back to WoW.
>>335236438
Losing gear durability is fine as long as the game is not built around getting epic gear and it defining your character. If you think about gear as long term buffs, like every sandbox game with degradation did, it makes perfect sense. Give players control over the economy through crafting and trading and you have SWG.
>>335236607
>Losing gear durability is fine as long as the game is not built around getting epic gear and it defining your character
Except that would also be fine.
>>335236704
No, because then it just becomes busywork and you're never interested in replacing the best gear once you have it.
>>335236760
>Have best gear
>don't use it
>get more best gear
>sell it
>rich
>play with best gear
>>335233598
I think class identity is important, but this doesn't rule out training whatever the fuck you want.
I like how they thought up the class system in Camelot Unchained but we're yet to see how good the game will be.
>>335236760
that only works if gear cannot be repaired past a certain point. like the guy mentioned in swg your gear would eventually be unfixable because you'd lower the treshold with each repair. what this meant in practice was you would save your good shit for when it matter and carried spare gear with you at all times. it also kept the economy running because everyone always needed replacements and they didn't have to be top-notch shit you would pay an arm and a leg frm.
Weapon & Armor sets a la Monster Hunter in an open sandbox world
>your dream MMO will never be published and be successful
>you will never have half of the world succumb to your game's addiction and be held against in court by angry moms and bosses
>>335237102
What is your dream MMO Anon?
>>335233598
Yeah, I knew such mmo. That mmo pop my cherry. I was looking for substance for it, but realised there are only one like it. It's namerunescape. :(
>>335236982
And it *does* function well. It's fucking fun farming up items to sell.
I'd love to see legendary weapons actually be legendary. As in only one can exist in the game world at the time. Naturally you'd have to take steps so people couldn't just bank them. Maybe make them cursed so they can't be unequipped and they have to kill something (in line with their lore) every x days or the weapon abandons/kills its wielder. These weapons would make the wielders juggernauts, titans amongst men. Borderline raid bosses. But the cost would be that you're marked. If its a pvp thing then anyone can attack you anywhere, if its a pve thing then perhaps you become hunted by elite champions or something.
I'm not a game dev or designer so it probably wouldn't work as a whole but the one thing I always hated in mmos is that you have this amazing legendary weapons in lore but everyone and their mum is walking around with one. Make them actually unique.
>>335237174
A lot of stuff implemented (classes, races and whatnot); it's too embarrassing to tell.
>>335236982
Vanguard could've been the shit had not literally everything been against it.
>developed by overambitious devs
>that whole drama about drug-abusing CEO and overall poor direction because of it
>Microsoft ditched the game because it was taking too long
>picked up by SOE who only bought it so it wouldn't compete with eq2 and put it on life support immediately
>F2P revival and patches after a year or more gave everyone hope
>SOE decides to shut it down because "database maintenance wasn't worth it"
Only MMORPG I ever played that had a game world too big for its own good and they needlessly split the population across servers.
>>335237418
You'll never see shit like that because everything has to be designed so it's accessible by everyone in the game. It's why you'll never see something like, I don't know, player becoming a god and getting his own religion in a mainstream MMORPG. Wurm Online has shit like that, though
>>335237702
This is why there needs to be more Indie MMOs. Indies have the freedom to experiment and do things that mainstream devs are scared to do for fear of hurting profits.
I've given up on XIV. It's shit and there's no hope of it ever getting better. I'm not sure any PVE mmo will ever be good though, so I tried PVP on xiv in preparation for the feast PVP mode. I found that I enjoyed it more than I thought but realized that the pvp in XIV is shit.
So I think I should just look for a PVP focused mmo instead. Looking around there's crowfall and camelot unchained on the horizon. Which one are you banking on to succeed right now, /v/?
>>335237702
I think the mindset or culture of video game players just couldn't handle a sandbox style game like that anymore anon. Not to be 'born in wrong generation' but everyone now seems to have this fetish for loot treadmills and just reading a wiki to get the best possible meta build then spend hours pumping out a 123 optimized rotation they read off a guide.
There's nothing wrong with having raids of some kind but having them be the end all be all focus of the game to the point where it overshadows every other aspect is just wrong.
I'd heard great things about Ultima Online and Everquest but I missed them due to not having a computer back then.
>There will never be an MMO where the final end-game boss is deeply hidden in an unlisted patch and is controlled by an admin that parties queue up to fight and only one party can defeat him to get special gear
>>335238095
I don't think PvP focused MMOs will ever really take off when people can just play MOBAs with less time investment.
I hope I'm wrong though.
>>335238352
They had an opportunity a decade or so ago but with how much people expect out of games in terms of visuals and interactivity these days it's not a likely prospect for an MMO.
>>335238332
>There will never be an fun MMO
thank you, casuals
>>335234181
Only issue is that huge skill lists always result in dead paths where the skills are either useless, highly situational or just weaker versions of other skills.
Always prefer a smaller set of skills that completely change how the class plays and are easier to make all choices work as opposed to the former
>>335238352
That's the thing though. Crowfall looks like a more persistent dota. Or at least a longer term dota session. The world 'persistent' is key imo. In mobas you just get the satisfaction of winning but you dont get character progression that stays. Surely there are people who hankers for that.
Maybe that's just my opinion though. I only tried moba for a month or two. Shit, maybe if these games don't take off, maybe I should start playing mobas and give up on mmos altogether?
How do you feel about MMOs that use Minecraft style world building? I don't mean just proc gen but the actual mechanics of building/destroying shit block by block. Some areas would be untouchable (think main hubs or cities) while players could go out and explore newly generated areas.
Trove exists but it's very much aimed at children.
>>335238141
well mindles mob/skill grind is even worse than all those 'ten bear asses' quests
>>335238862
>explore newly generated areas.
>tfw there's no mmo based on hack where there are infinite worlds randomly created by making a combination of words
>tfw you will never have a secret base somewhere in these password worlds
>tfw there will be no guild vs guild wars like in eve where wars are fought based on pass code intels, espionage and propaganda
Are there any MMOs currently alive that reward communication with other people when doing dungeons and quests or are they all streamlined and can be played as a single player game
Ragnarok was my sweet spot.
I didn't like the rates on official servers though, too much quest grind and not enough party or PVP fun.
It felt more like a singleplayer game with a pinch of multiplayer added on top.
A lot of MMO's feel like this, which is why I never play them.
>>335239096
EVE Online lmao
Runescape is the only MMO that did it right
>>335238973
It is a difficult thing to balance for sure. I think leveling is necessary no matter what because then your player base has to deal with the whole sunk cost fallacy so you'd have better retention. Honestly if the content available while leveling and the philosophy of 'the game doesn't start until max level' can be avoided then it alleviates the burden that leveling incurs of holding people back from experiencing the 'real' content of the game.
Out of the MMOs I've played for any long period of time, I'd rank them:
SWTOR > FFXIV > WoW = ESO > FF11 > DCUO > Runescape > D&DO
D&DO was set in Eberron, so it was obviously terrible. Runescape is to the MMO market what flash games are to AAA titles. DCUO is fun to make characters, but not actually fun to play. FF11 was grindy as fuck and no real way to singleplay. ESO's alright, my biggest gripe is 9 core races and only 8 character slots. WoW is what WoW is, everyone including me mostly plays it because we've sunk ten years in at this point. FF14 has everything WoW has and a little extra besides, but is way prettier. And SWTOR is just perfect.
>>335233598
What I want is a MMO with Baldur's Gate like dungeons, a skill and leveling system like GW and a world as comfy as WoW vanilla.
It must not have koreean graphism like Tera or realistic like Age of Conan. Also no welfare epics.
Is it too much too ask?
>>335239294
>graphism
Are you French by any chance?
What kind of art style would you prefer then? Cartoony like WoW?
>>335239396
Yes I am, plus I haven't slept all night so my english is down the shitter atm.
>What kind of art style would you prefer then? Cartoony like WoW?
I really, really like GW art style. It's really neat and beautiful.
Basically what I want is Guild Wars 2
>>335233598
As much as I adored UO, you have to admit training up the skills was annoying as hell for a lot of the skills, but if done properly I'd love to see a revisit of that system.
Having full control over what skills you learn and the degree you master them allowed for players to have more freedom in what they do rather than waiting solely on the game or their class telling them what they can or cannot do.
As stated earlier though, it'd need a complete reworking of how you gain XP in each skill though and how you can use them. Nothing is more annoying than trying to train up a skill and getting like no experience cause you're so low in the skill you fail at it.
>>335239557
>Yes I am
Knew it.
>Basically what I want is Guild Wars 2
Then why don't you play it?
>>335238862
Conceptually thats neat, but you'd likely fall into a similar issue UO had. Which was that finding places to place down housing becomes a bigger issue than getting the house.
In other words, theres only a finite amount of space in the world. Even if you limit it only to certain parcels, or like UO areas with large/flat enough land, you get to the point where finding empty parcels becomes damn near impossible.
>>335239772
Couldn't that problem be solved with something like what >>335239078 suggested?
There doesn't have to be a finite amount of space if new areas can be generated on the fly.
>>335239595
>getting like no experience cause you're so low in the skill you fail at it.
That is stupidly frustrating but easy to remove at least.
>>335239645
I don't want to play the abomination that is current GW2. This game has nothing to do with the first one.
Here's a quick comparison :
- GW1 builds for the elementalist class
http://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/Special:PrefixIndex/Build:E/
- GW2 builds for the elementalist class
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Elementalist
I have no idea what the hell happened at Arena Net for them to change everything that made the first game a success.
>>335239942
>I have no idea what the hell happened at Arena Net for them to change everything that made the first game a success.
I think a lot of people feel the same way about Blizzard and WoW expansions.
>>335239938
It could be, but honestly is that even a MMO anymore? I mean the whole point of a MMO is basically to be sharing one world with thousands of other players. Otherwise what you have is essentially a seed thats used as a password and world gen, kinda no different than joining say a Minecraft server.
>>335239942
Remember smiter's boon?
That guy was in charge of skill design.
>>335240093
It's basicallystargate
>>335239557Go to bed, A.
>>335240157
Yes and no. The big difference is that Stargate's destinations aren't random. They'd be preset destinations you dial in. More like an address than anything else.
The suggestion the other person had stated creating infinite worlds randomly using combinations of words. That'd work like a seed, and is closer to how Minecraft generates its worlds and servers.
Incidentally, there is a minecraft mod that actually does something similar to that in which it creates dimensions based on symbols combined and such.
I've been thinking about MMOs for a long time because I'm in love with the concept and thinking of how I would design one because I don't think very many have been done correctly.
However, I realized a while ago that I don't think my ideas would work in a true open-world sandbox MMO setting without something ridiculous like quantum computing and whatnot to eliminate issues of latency and tickrates
Anyway here's a list of bulletpoints for ideas I've been thinking of for a game off and on for a few months but will never amount to anything ever
http://pastebin.com/R60DcXjV
/blog
>>335240343
But all the stargates world are made up shit. They never said how many there are and essentially you can have almost every 7/8 chevron combination lead to a precreated world. I'm just saying randomly generated because it doesn't make sense to generate all the possible combinations and then start handcrafting them down from top of the list to the bottom.
>>335239195
You forgot Mabi
>tfw using Alchemy with every playstyle after getting through the shitty early stages
>>335240343
You don't have to allow the players to choose the seed. There could be a pool of generated areas that they can only get to through portals or some shit. Rip open a hole in space and end up in one of those places and maybe save the location to return to later.
>>335234181
>
You are more than your class. Pick up and use any weapon, any armor, and choose from an enormous selection of spells and abilities to customize your fighting style—no matter which class you select. Create exactly the hero you envision, try out new abilities, and change out your skills anywhere to adapt to new threats. You’re in control of your character’s fate.
How does that sound? Need it more specific?
>>335241130
>Swole as fuck armor and shield-wielding warrior decides to become a robe-wearing wizard with a magical stick
>>335241205
Possible. Is it a problem?
>>335238332
>queue up
You had something going there and then this shit showed up.
>>335241270
It's only a problem if they can switch on the fly and become Gandalf right away.
>>335233598
I just want EVE Online with actual gameplay.
>>335241205
>fireball spell becomes more physical damage than fire because of the speed of it being thrown
>muscle warrior becomes a baseball pitcher style fireball mage
>>335233598
I love MMO with politic/government system and can fight other races
Muh arena pvp and ranking should never exist
>>335241325
How is everybody supposed to fight 1 person at the same time anon?
>>335241345
Well you can switch weapon + skillset (of 5 skills on hotbar) during a fight, but you can't change armor which makes it fairly weak to do so if you are not built around that idea.
>>335241438
>what are world bosses?
Did you just start playing MMOs?
>>335241459
I was thinking more about the skill requirements.
Isn't allowing someone who has specced to be the Hulk to also simultaneously be Gandalf a little overpowered?
I'm not sure how I feel about letting people max every skill and switch between builds at whim.
>>335241205
Sound exactly like XIV
>>335241325
There are children in this thread who do not even know that non-instanced raidbosses can exist.
They will laugh at you for even bringing it up, surely modern technology is not yet capable of such a thing.
>>335241492
A huge fuckfest of everybody just blasting out their spreadsheet combos on a monster that can barely control itself spamming AoEs while nobody can tell what the fuck is going on? Because that's what they were in SWTOR, XIV, and BDO, and I'm sure many more.
Nah m8, an enemy that actually has mechanics based around a small number of players in a party fighting it and controlled by a person is infinitely more interesting. MHF had the right idea with that giant snake monster where multiple parties fought different parts of it in their own instance. This is a step further than that.
>>335241459
>only 5 skills
Why don't people like having a lot of skills anymore?
Imo MMO should be slow-paced and so should be the combat, like a chess game where you have to nitpick the correct skill to use for each different situation instead of just spamming 5 buttons in a somewhat correct rotation.
>>335241595
It's not the level of the skills that make them powerful but your equipment.
Lets say you are with mighty 2 hander and set of plate armor fighting someone, your target goes far away and you choose to pick up your staff and shoot fireballs at him, those fireballs are weak and does not do much dmg cause you are wearing plate armor.
>>335241325
What's the point of the admin controlling the monster if it just acts like a world boss?
>>335241743
It's a total of 10 skills + auto attack which include light and heavy attack. It give enough diversity and the combat is focused more on resource management.
>>335233598
L2 had the best class system imo.
>humans, elves and d elves have the traditional tank/nuker/healer/buffer/rogue/archer
>still play completely differently, with racials and different skills/buffs/stats on the racial version of each class
>orcs and dwarves get classes that are exclusive to them, such as clan buffer for the orcs or crafter for the dwarves
>once you get to a certain level, you can complete a long ass quest that allows you to add any class in the game as a subclass
>you can freely change between subclasses (up to 3) and even delete old ones to add new
That game had over 30 different classes and the all felt necessary and useful.
>>335233598
No classesMy favourite MMO is EVE
>>335241668
>SWTOR, XIV, and BDO
Spot the WoWkiddie. There's nothing wrong with the type of boss you mentioned demanding a couple of players to work together, but if you think that's how all bosses should be and just throw out of the window boss diversity then you're dumb.
And if you think that it takes no skill to keep several guilds from killing each other and coordinating groups based on their elemental spell damage to hurt the boss as much as possible at the right time without blowing all their mana simultaneously early on, then you're even dumber, and probably a MOBAfag.
My dream MMO is a game where every one is kind of a classic p&p wizard. Before venturing out of the city or your mage tower, you'd have to pick all the spells you need to safely exploring the land, and if you run out of spells midway you're screwed.
The classes would be the likes of evoker, illusionist, elementalist, conjurer etc...
>>335241789
Just gonna chime in and say that an admin controlled boss should act like a high level ganker. He'd stomp everybody around and retreat when people start crowding around to give him a disadvantage. Eventually the boss would get weaker and weaker and be less able to run away (teleport cooldown getting larger) and the player groups would spread out to look for the boss all over the world. First one to find the boss and actually be able to take them down gets the reward.
>>335241076
That technically makes it a bit worse. If you could choose a seed, at least theres a chance of two or more players popping up in the same location. Otherwise you may as well be playing a single player game.
>>335240506
While it is true that they're all made up shit, the same can be said about dot hack's as well. The difference is just in how they're executed and as I said, to make them randomized based on whatever terms, it'd be basically making seed worlds.
Regardless, you'd basically wind up with single player servers essentially which makes a MMO pointless. Its not much different than online game lobbies at that point as well.
>>335242229
L2 had something similar.
Every time a mob was killed, there was a slight chance to drop a cursed weapon.
Those cursed weapons gave you massive stats and allowed you to freely pk anyone. The more you pk'd, the stronger they got. If you died, they would drop and anyone could pick them up.
You would go on mudrder sprees and eventually you'd have a huge train of players behind you. Shit was fun as fuck.
>>335242148
>>335242229
>but if you think that's how all bosses should be
When did I ever say that anon? I just thought it was a cool idea for a final end-game boss where you fight against the game's creator.
I understand the concept of a world boss and I do think it's a really neat idea (though commonly half-assed unfortunately), it's just not what I'm looking for. I want something that's extremely difficult to discover, on the level of discovering Dark Souls' Ash Lake x100, a long string of curious discoveries leading from one to the next until eventually the end-game boss is discovered. It then gives an incredibly difficult ultimate challenge to players and the friends they've played with for so long throughout the game to test their ability again the person who created it all. A party goes in and gets a certain amount of time or deaths before they're booted out and the next party riding on the coattails of their initial discovery try their hand at it.
Once a party comes along that has the ability to best the designer, they get a special prize only granted to the few who worked together to win it all.
>>335234329
Being a jack of all trades inherently sacrifices depth for breadth.
>>335241076
That could be neat if your space is linked to the game world. You could put traps and shit to kill the players trying to invade your home.
>>335242537
And once it gets discovered once, it's all over the wikis. Also, how can you make it work on multiple servers if it's one guy controlling the super-boss?
>tfw I'll never get to experience an MMO with the large amount of races and classes like EQ2
>>335242727
>And once it gets discovered once, it's all over the wikis.
Sure the method of reaching the boss may be revealed (though I was thinking something along the lines of the discovery triggering a somewhat accessible boss door and world-wide notice), but sharing tips on how to beat the boss outside your party is a bit counter-intuitive.
>Also, how can you make it work on multiple servers if it's one guy controlling the super-boss?
Time slots
how late is it for some one to start playing linage 2?
i hear all this awesome things about this game but i feel like im to late to the party and starting at this point will be to late when everyone already knows everything about the game.
>>335242537
The point is that what you're looking for is closer to a co-op game, not a MMO which stands for MASSIVE.
Instanced raid bosses who only allow 5 players at the same time are the very antithesis of what a MMO stands for.
I really wish developers weren't afraid to call their game something else, why don't they just invent the MORPG genre, multiplayer online focused on small parties. Seeing shit like Vindictus get labeled as MMO is misleading and retarded. I don't see Dark Souls or Diablo calling itself a MMO.
>>335241789
What's the point of the admin controlling the boss if it's just going to be a dungeon boss?
You just have the boss somewhere in the world, controlled by a person, so they can intelligently wipe out groups of large players so zerging is not an option but the fight still feels impressive than some queuing up snorefest.
Similar to what >>335242229 said, not that all of you wow babies would understand the benefits of using the game world over queues, instances, and garrisons.
>>335242867
Then it's just a chore that you need to do before you fight an instanced boss. The requirement would end up being just something you grind out for like the jedis in starwars galaxies.
Lame. Your idea is shit.
>>335242935
I think part of that reason is the fault of the consumer. There have been games in the past that were even specifically stated as online RPGs like PSO, and yet people still kept insisting on calling it a MMO despite the fact it was limited to like 4 player coop.
>>335242923
On the retail servers, most of the fun parts of the game you hear about were removed in favor of catering to the theme-park crowd when the game went f2p.
L2 still mantains the largest private server community of any other game though, even larger than the retail servers, so you can try there, but do expect alot of hyper-competitive elitists.
An old DAOC server that has been offline and being faithfully rebuilt for the last 2 years is going to open again in about 2 weeks for an open beta.
That's what I'll be playing again once it comes back up fully again. Pretty excited to be honest. It's one of the few mmo's I can keep going back to and enjoying.
>>335242191
I would like to actually see more resource limits in game that affect what you can do. Maybe not necessarily spells, but ammo/healing items or whatever too.
You know what I keep bumping into though? Messages that say my inventory is full because they limit it to hell and back to make you unlock them from cash shop.
>>335242537
>extremely difficult to discover
>queue up
Wow babies, everyone.
>>335242935
>Instanced raid bosses who only allow 5 players at the same time are the very antithesis of what a MMO stands for.
I definitely agree with this when boss content is kept on that level, though I don't see the harm in a mix. I think something like my idea works well when it's done on a more personal level.
>Seeing shit like Vindictus get labeled as MMO is misleading and retarded. I don't see Dark Souls or Diablo calling itself a MMO.
100% agree on this.
>>335242972
>What's the point of the admin controlling the boss if it's just going to be a dungeon boss?
Because fighting another person is fun, especially in an asymmetric style. The idea of getting to the point of fighting the creator of the world itself is also neat.
>>335242976
>Then it's just a chore that you need to do before you fight an instanced boss.
How so? You get your party and you click a button.
>>335243101
>extremely difficult to discover
>queue up
You're referencing 2 different things here, anon.
There's the hidden line of discoveries that eventually leads to the fight and then the fight itself.
>>335242867
A time-slot based boss fight....
You know, you could just make it a server event, with the GM appearing someplace as a really powerfull boss and all clans fighting over who gets to kill it while he rampages.
>>335239276
>FF14 has everything WoW has and a little extra besides
I wasn't a fan of the chalk like art style. The main storyline was too Moe. The abilities all have flashy effects, but the effects don't really correspond to what the abilities actually do so it just ends up being a light show. I couldn't stand the fact that areas were all gated off with loading times too.
>>335243229
see
>>335243206
I think it's more interesting when it's done on a personal level. The best of the best get to try their hand at beating the person who made it all.
A world-event is cool too don't get me wrong, but not what I'm looking for.
>>335243252
Not to mention the XIV world is basically a snake and ladders board and you're playing with a dice with all 1 on the face. By the time you reach the end of the scenario, you've seen every zone. At level cap you just idle in hubs and queue for instances. Shit tier mmo.
>>335234329
Star Wars Galaxies had the answer. You could potentially unlock every skill, class, etc. in the game, but you only had 250 skill points to spend around for equipping/activating the skills.
My main was a Teras Kasi Master (hand to hand combat), the unarmed tree from brawler (to access TKM), some blocks in scout for terrain negotiation (made it easier to run up hills), master medic (needed to access doctor), and some blocks in the doctor class (for crafting third tier buffs packs and being able to use them). I could tank, off tank, or DPS, back up heal, and buff before dungeons.
>>335236331
Drop equipped armor on death. Leave the weapon so they can fight back an get the pile of stuff. And make a timer on the items. In a game called dark ages, that's how it was. Certain items broke on death, others dropped, others stayed equipped when you died. Ten again here was an item called a "warranty bag" you could purchase when hunting so you didn't lose stuff on death
>>335243304
Then get the fuck out and look for a non mmo thread.
>>335243206
>You discovered the boss
>You can't fight him, you have to queue up for it first, everyone deserves a turn
Yeah, very climatic end to that line of discoveries.
Just face it, queues and instances don't belong and have never belong in an MMO. Let the boss roam and players fight it.
>>335243304
You see, this 'personal-level' thing shouldn't exist in a game that's supossed to be about grouping together with other players.
It just seems like something someone who's only played wow-clone themeparks and watched SAO would come up with.
>>335243412
To be fair, in regards to instances and ques, they take out a good chunk of the annoying things. Ques form up naturally in high traffic quests/dungeons anyways if the game isn't built around it.
It isn't uncommon in older MMOs to have players all bottlenecked at a spot trying to kill a boss or something and waiting on respawn timers which isn't fun for anyone involved.
Instances removes that problem for the most part.
>>335235053
Lose progress in leveling skills maybe?
>>335243406
Why does a single boss being an instance PvP fight make an entire game non-MMO?
>>335243412
>Yeah, very climatic end to that line of discoveries.
Of course the party that discovers it gets first dibs (not that that's all there is to it, a covenant wasn't the only part of discovering Ash Lake). If you've ever seen threads about ARG, a new Souls release or other things like that, people really enjoy just the act of discovering hidden content.
>Just face it, queues and instances don't belong and have never belong in an MMO
I definitely agree to this when the majority of content revolves around this. I can't stand games that just have you open a menu and click a button to automatically be matched with a party to run through a dungeon in silence for the 300th time. But I don't see the harm in pre-made parties fighting another person by themselves. It's a very personal thing for you and your comrades to take on the game's biggest challenge.
>>335243417
see above
>>335243551
instances introduced detachment from social aspects, detachment from accountability, encourages i-want-it-now entitlement.
>>335242923
Pretty late. It got gutted years ago, although it still has a lot of nifty features so I guess it might be worth a try.
If you're korean then you're in luck though, they officially released some servers for the game before it was ruined,(think nostalrius) but with updated UI and models.
I honestly have no fucking idea why nobody is stealing shit from L2, it has so many neat things it's a crime.
>Free for All PvP with karma system, anyone can kill anyone but not without heavy consequences
>PKers have incredibly high item drop on death, which lead to players unofficially making PK-Hunting groups
>clan wars, killing members of enemy clan gives your entire clan "points". With enough points you can basically buy passives for every clan member such as 10% more health, 10% more defense, etc.
>castle sieges, you can use your clan to attack a castle defended by either NPCs or another clan to conquer it
>anyone can technically join the battle, but those who didn't get officially registered before the siege started will suffer greater penalty on death
>owner of the castle gets some sweet boons, such as the ability to put a tax rate on the nearby villages (i.e. taxrate 30%, all items sold at NPC vendors in the area will be 30% more expensive, and owner gets that 30% automatically in the warehouse)
>or a motherfucking flying dragon, the only flying mount in the game
>lots of world bosses
>Olympiad system where players can compete in 1 vs 1 duels, the best player in his class gets the title of "Hero" at the end of the month, together with a golden aura, some additional skills and some really strong weapons (none of those can be used in the olympiad though)
>cursed weapons as this guy mentioned >>335242512 which turns you into a slaughterhouse but everyone in the game can see you on the map and hunt you down
And many more.
I prefer games where you're dropped into the world and you make something of yourself rather than "YOU ARE THE HERO.... now collect 10 boar assholes to get my +1 piercing damage necklace"
>>335243709
Matchmaking systems for instanced content certainly did, but is there really harm in a small portion of content only being accessible to a party?
>>335243671
>i don't like sucking dicks but this idea i have involves sucking dicks i swear i'm not gay
Just stop pushing your idea and go play demon souls 1 and do the turban head boss fight or something.
>>335243709
Without instances, players were encouraged to go every man for themself. Steal that kill so you can keep playing, otherwise you're forced to wait. This is especially true in games that had quest progress independent per player, rather than tied to group progress.
>>335243821
You're going to have to make your point a little more concise, anon. This is an enjoyable discussion so I'm not sure why you're devolving into this.
I've never played a turn-based MMO and wonder how it could work out.
>>335243920
Mabinogi is okay I guess.
>>335243823
>a game creating multiple instances of a mob so that multiple players gain the objective/rewards at the same time
>somehow a game having one mob in the open world that multiple players gain the objective/rewards at the same time for cooperating is impossible
Where did this logic come from?
>>335243747
You forgot the absolutely BEST PvP system ever created.
I've never seen any other game such a good flagging mechanic.
>>335243823
This is why MMOs need to have open PvP mechanics.
>>335243885
>multiple people object to the idea, explain that it goes against the idea of mmos
>oh yea, i agree to that, definitely. but my idea is special!
>>335241618
non instanced raidbosses sound like a cool idea but it always just boils down to lolzergrush and the boss dies in 12 seconds because of the fuckload of people
>>335244006
Have you ever played an older MMO? Or is only stuff like WoW your only experience? The only way your way would work is if everyone in the area got kill credit, even if they did nothing to that enemy.
Even if you had anyone who tagged the boss get credit, you'd still have pileups of people waiting for the boss to spawn and it'd become a free for all the moment it did.
>>335243971
I played Mabinogi when it first started and I don't remember it being turn-based.
>>335244089
Depends on the boss.
Most of the time, it's groups fighting each other.
In L2, healers could use % based heals on bosses, making it impossible to kill a contested raid without killing other groups first.
>>335244082
Queueing up for an instance completely detached from the world through a menu where you have little to no interaction with random people for the 300th time is a bad system. Especially when it's used very often like you see in modern "MMOs".
If an entire MMO is sandbox-esque aside from a single PvP bossfight that not everyone can do at the same time (the reason for the queue), does that make the game not-MMO?
>>335244006
I remember doing the polished granite tomahawk heritage quest in EQ2. Had to kill a named griffin in the zone. It had a 6 hour respawn timer, and it could spawn from any of the griffin spawn points in the zone, but not if the griffin that spawned from that point was alive. There were 18 griffin spawns, and the chance for it to spawn from any one of these points, if the timer was up, was 2%.
My guild camped that area for about 3 days before it spawned, and a max level character that was powerleveling someone tapped it first, then just stood there as it did no damage to him. Took another 5 days before I was able to get the drop from it (joined a PUG, wasn't going to keep the whole guild back just because I wanted the item).
>>335244138
>Even if you had anyone who tagged the boss get credit, you'd still have pileups of people waiting for the boss to spawn and it'd become a free for all the moment it did.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
>>335244148
The combat system was designed around a pseudo turn-based time system. Basically the AI was coded so that it would put a move out and you would be reacting to it with a specific move. If you tried to just go out and attack or throw moves out, the entire system would break down and you'd be punished hard by the mob.
>>335244285
In which case you'd have people idling for credit or to XP farm. And before you say, don't give XP then, it'd cause quests and levels to become desynced after a while and force more grinding just so they're the proper level they should be at.
>>335244263
So what's the problem? That's the experience isn't it? Good or bad it's still part of how that world works.
It's like rolling on a pvp server and then complaining that you're getting ganked because all you want to do is level up to max level and thinking that getting exposed to the full package is not something you signed up for.
>>335243823
It's actually the other way around.
When players have to share mobs with other players they feel more compelled to form groups and share the xp and loot rather than compete with each other for it.
If they can make it all the way to levelcap without ever having to care about other players they will never feel as a part of a community of players.
>>335244089
In older MMOs mana was actually a valuable resource, you couldn't just blow your skillset as fast as possible at the boss and expect him to die. And world bosses could take plenty of hits. The boss actually going down was rare and a server-wide event, everyone and his mother on the server would know about it and be jealous of the guys who did it.
>Factorio + EvE
Now that would be a fun MMO. Too bad no one takes risks.
>>335243079
is it free?
link?
>>335244396
Are you talking about open world BOSS or quest mobs. It sounded like you were describing an open world boss at first because you referred to the special reward now you're referring to XP? Who the fuck relies on a mob that has HOURS of spawn window for xp? Get your arguments straight.
>>335244465
Thats only if they can kill it fast enough, if the respawn timer is slow enough, and if theres not too many people looking for the same thing.
>>335244263 is a good example of what the old school way of doing things before instances and ques were a thing, and hell even today you can still find remnants of that concept in some MMOs.
Further more, some games also have had individual quest progress. So even if your party member killed/looted something, it'd only count for them and not your full party especially for quests where its loot X of a certain item.
>>335233598
The only worthwhile MMO right now is Black Desert Online.
Everything else sucks.
>>335244678
>The only worthwhile MMO right now is a generic, P2W Korean grinding themepark MMO
Ha, no.
>>335244678
>All trade is performed via auction houses at prices set by the developers
try again
>>335244596
>Who the fuck relies on a mob that has HOURS of spawn window for xp?
Not him, and I'm not going to pretend the game was a great MMO, but MapleStory had instances of just that. People would get into KSing wars over area bosses that would spawn once ever 24-ish hours, sometimes more, for EXP mostly.
>>335244713
>P2W
Nothing in BDO is P2W.
>>335244474
I kind of want to see a boss that only spawns during full moons in an open pvp area.
the monthly cluster-fuck would be glorious.
>>335244678
Only if you play the original korean CBT that was actually a sandbox MMO.
Current BDO is literally just the MMO version of Spore.
>>335244678
>not a real sandbox, only has the potentially frustrating features of one
>not a theme-park either
It somehow manages to alienate both crowds.
>>335244772
>cash shop with cosmetics that increase stats and inventory size/weight increasing items, as well as pets that collect gear and better mounts and upgrading materials
It is P2W. End of discussion.
>>335244772
>Pets that loot bodies for you and significantly speed up the cumulative weeks you'll spend farming
try again
>>335244596
Quest mobs and bosses. If its tied to a quest and in the open world, older games have had bottlenecks happen on them.
As for referring to XP, did you not read what was stated? If you just grant completion to everyone in the area, but don't reward any XP for it, the design curve of the game goes out of wack after a while. Also, I wasn't suggesting waiting hours for XP, but rather saying thats an example of what happens without instances. Even with quicker timers, you still wind up waiting and in a free for all with everyone present.
>>335244772
>Ghillie Suit
>>335244809
That's what happens when your publisher forces you to suddenly shift focus from sandbox players to internet cafe retards 2/3 of the way through development.
>>335244678
>>335244772
Even without any of the P2W stuff it's still a boring empty world
>>335244881
>i-it wasn't the d-developer's fault!
so you admit it's a bad game then?
>>335244829
Cosmetics don't increase stats. They only have +10% exp bonus.
Inventory size/weight increasing items are given to you through questing.
Pets don't collect gear, mounts, or upgrading materials. They autoloot.
>>335244835
>autolooting pets
Oh jeez, that's your issue?
>>335244881
>>Ghillie Suit
What about it? It hides your name. BIG WHOOP.
>>335244961
Confirmed for never having played.
>>335244963
It's 100% a bad game, which is unfortunate because during the original kCBT it was shaping up to be an actual modern sandbox MMO before DAUM took over.
>>335244993
>hes so retarded he thinks I was talking about pets collecting things, rather than the pets being P2W by themselves
holy shit my fucking sides
Okay kid, you go back to your P2W MMO.
Or are you really so desperate for players already you have to shill it on /v/?
>>335244837
And how exactly did I ever suggest that standing around in the zone without even seeing the mob would grant the completon tick mark for killing it? Hell, how did you even come to the conclusion that that's the norm, the standard thing that would happen in an open world mmo? Just stepping in the zone and having someone else on the other side of the zone killing something and you'd get credit for it? Am I talking to a troll here?
>>335244993
>P2W cash shop apologizing
>10% xp and autolooting p-pets aren't that b-b-big of a deal goys!
everytime
>aion
>rift
>tera
>b&s
>bdo
>skyforge
is there ANY non shitty mmo?
>>335245092
Read the fucking comment chain before you start asking dumb questions like this.
>>335245085
>rather than the pets being P2W by themselves
How is an autolooting pet P2W?
>>335245096
It's not? It's a non-issue.
>>335245061
>End-game is allegedly about PvP
>Sell an item that gives you an advantage in the stealth meta of PvP
>th-that doesn't count tho
lmao @ ur life
>>335244993
>>335245061
>p-please come play with me, i dont want to be alone :(
Its your own fucking fault for falling for a scam. We fucking told you it failed in Korean and Russia and yet you fucking spent MONEY to pay for a F2P game in the rest of the world.
Well done, you're literally the most stupid type of MMO consumer.
>>335244837
I know what you mean.
Anyone who's played L2 back in the day will still have nightmares about Barakiel.
>World boss part of important quest, party who gets last hit gets the item
>random tank shows up and aggroes it at it spawns
>random healears healing and buffing the boss
>random tank runs with the boss for 2 hours with 600 people training behind
It did create some hillarious situations and PvP sometimes.
>>335245156
It's P2W. We're all desperate for a good MMO but have some dignity dude.
Some traits of my ideal resource focused MMO.
>free for all pvp with safe zones in town, but penalties for PKers
>very few item drops, most are crafted by players
>you get exp for crafting, to the point where you could reach max level with just crafting AS LONG as you had enough money to keep crafting good things for high exp (a starting player couldn't possibly level up fast with crafting, but someone who already has character with a shitton of money could)
>resources and crafting materials are very heavy and will make you encumbered with just a couple
>to carry them you need to put them in crates
>crates can be carried by hand ( just one), with donkeys ( a couple) or carriages ( a lot)
>they move at a relatively mediocre speed, slower than players but faster than encumbered players
>crates cannot be transported with global teleport,portals or fast travel
>resources are limited and different in each area, forest has a lot of wood, mountains have a lot of ores, ocean has underwater resources, etc.
>meaning that wood is very expensive in the desert villages but very cheap in the forest ones, players can make money by carrying resources from one town to another
>no global auction house
Archeage had a lot of potential but it failed in many aspects.
>>335245156
>I-its a nonissue!
Then why does everyone always make an issue with how P2W BDO is?
Its a fucking P2W game, get over it.
And yes, pets that fucking do all the work for you is pretty fucking P2W. You cant get them any other way and their benefit is unmatched. Its pure P2W horseshit.
>>335245061
Played it for 2 weeks, it's a shit game anon
>>335245097
NCSoft used to make a pretty good MMO in the past, then they start cattering to korean internet cafe user
>>335234685
Leveling is always my most memorable experience of mmos desu. All the little encounters with people and the exploring new areas. I always get bored fast of end game raiding etc.
>>335245152
YOU read the comment chain. Look to the part where I quoted one line of yours that was referring to world boss fights. You suddenly moved goal posts to >getting xp for mobs you didnt touch
>>335244772
>has a cash shop where you can buy advantages
So its P2W.
Its that simple. There are no buts ifs or whats about it. If you can pay money and get an advantage, its a P2W game.
>>335245230
Fun fact: That's exactly how Archeage was supossed to be.
Archeage was made by the creator of L2. Your first two points already exist in L2.
He wanted to expand what he created in L2, but he wasn't allowed by the publisher.
>>335245230
i think silkroad had something similar to this with addition of caravan raiding faction and caravan guards faction.
i can be wrong though i never really got into it because of how hard it was to get into the servers.
>>335245230
>>335245376
I would pay for a decent non-p2w private server of archeage
>>335236982
>keeps the economy running
That's a good point. I missed out on these sorts of mmos but having gear that doesn't last forever and needs to be repaired/remade makes tradesman characters viable so not everyone has to be a monster hunter, people can fill the rules of npc.
>>335245321
You know, by this definition, XIV is a p2w mmo
>can pay for more npc banks
>npc banks can be sent out to gather items and make more auction sales
>more chances to make gold
>players who pay cash for these can have an advantage getting fully melded crafted gear to tackle raids much faster than those who don't
But the white knight shills would dismiss this just outright.
>no levels
>no classes
>just you, your gear, and the economy
>finding resources, refining them, manufacturing goods
>frequent cataclysmic events that fuck the world and everything up so people cant just sit down and relax
>playing solo is impossible, you'll die without others
To be announced; never
Cant have difficulty in an MMO after all.
>>335245261
There is some kind of law in Korea that says you can only play an MMO for X hours per day, so they changed their games to more instant gratification stuff, aka catering to the theme-park babies.
>>335245428
Been playing L2 private servers since 2005. Non p2w private server is almost impossible.
The files cost alot of money, file protection extensions cost alot of money, ddos protections costs alot of money.
>>335245520
Who gives a fuck about fucking XIV shills? It's a bad game regardless of being P2W.
>>335245208
Yeah I'm pretty sure no one whos actually played an old school style MMO thinks instances are a bad thing. And fuck, I haven't even touched on dealing with loot drops at all yet.
>>335245520
The fact is most people cant admit the games they play are P2W because they think it somehow reflects poorly on them, on a fucking anonymous image board of all things.
I play many P2W games, at least I have the dignity to admit it.
>>335233598
OLDSCHOOL RUNESCAPE NIGGERS
>>335245316
Bud, if you can't put two and two together you don't have enough braincells to continue talkin with.
YOU HAVE 10 SECONDS TO NAME ME A GOOD MMO TO PLAY RIGHT NOW
>>335245602
>Yeah I'm pretty sure no one whos actually played an old school style MMO thinks instances are a bad thing.
See the guy in this thread arguing that a single boss fight that's instanced because it's PvP makes the game not an MMO.
will this be the one to save the mmo genre?
>>335245671
Um, ah
Jackie Chan?
>>335245671
Pso2, Blade and tits, FFXIV
>>335245671
Tree of Savior.
>>335245758
>FFXIV
>>335245651
It's alright. I can tell you're a hypocrite who claims to want a real open world mmo but in your heart you just want another instanced galore wow clone.
>>335245602
They are a bad thing though.
Sure, a quest boss being open world and only few can take it can create frustrations, but it's also part of the game and you gotta deal with it.
In that same game, there was another super important quest that required you to kill 4 world bosses. THose bosses dropped a chest on death that anyone could talk to and get the quest item.
It's just that some quest bosses were made in a way so only few people can complete the quest.
It truly made you feel special and unique without resorting to 'chosen one' questline bullshit.
>>335245602
I did, and I do.
If you're not capable of securing the raid grounds and either killing everyone who comes to the boss or assimilating them in your group then you fail as a clan leader and don't deserve any drops. Doubly so if you're dumb enough to let an enemy robe-wearer get in range to cast Restoration.
I always made sure gladiators,necromancers and overlords were the first line of defense against other players.
>>335245782
Never once said that, but I can tell the oldest MMO you've played must be WoW.
>>335245759
He said MMO dumbfuck, not a public RPG.
>>335245681
Sell it to me mang. What does it do different? What business model does it have?
>>335245541
I doubt you can do worse than Trion's p2w stuff in Archeage
>>335245759
That game might as well be singleplayer if it's still the way it was in beta.
>>335245878
Fuck you I'll never find that response not funny
>>335245770
the best sub based mmo right nowbecause everything else is shit
>>335245826
How is this an insult? Would you be proud if you played UO and still browsed 4chan at 30+?
>>335245948
So is FFXIV.
>>335245889
Older L2 private servers used to sell godly gear for money.
The habit sorta died and 'donations' are more balanced nowadays, but a private server is still a bunch of college students trying to scrape together a server. Most of the time they can't cover the costs themselves.
>>335245965
So tempted to let the guy think this is the same guy he's been arguing with.
>>335246002
it's the least smelly shit out of them all though
>>335245965
Would you be proud that the highschool bike was your first girlfriend? That halo was your first shooter?
>>335245948
He asked for a good MMO, not the one that's the best smelling shit.
>>335246010
Thank god they are releasing an official "classic server" of L2
>>335245792
For a rare boss spawn or something, thats kind of okay. Annoying as shit, but they're suppose to be rare and difficult. For common quest related shit? You're getting nothing special out of them beyond being able to continue your quest chain.
>>335245807
That'd only work in a PVP centric game [ Which a lot of older MMOs did have admittedly. ] but even still that makes things only worse rather than better. Having only the largest groups camping out a spawn preventing anyone else from progressing is obnoxious as shit. Especially if its quest related.
If its just an unrelated rare drop boss or something then sure thats fine. But I'm specifically talking about quest crap.
>>335246043
But it's still not good.
>>335246067
all mmos are shit you retard
>>335233598
i just want a mmo that feels massive.
shit tons of people all on the same server, no instancing, in a world that would take literal days to travel across.
not a shit space game either, i mean a fucking WORLD.
rpg classes are hard to fuck up so as long as its not retarded and sticks to traditional stat stacking and the like it would be a smash hit.
>>335245853
It's just an another savior to the list. The details don't matter yet.
Camelot Unchained
Crowfall
Gloria Victis
Albion Online
Take your pick.
I just want Wildstar back :(
>>335246078
>Having only the largest groups camping out a spawn preventing anyone else from progressing is obnoxious as shit.
No, that's the fucking POINT OF THE GAME. It forces people to group up and fight that other group and then /sit on their corpses and go on the forums and call them fags.
>>335246136
>no instancing
impossible for a modern MMO due to server stress
>>335246078
>For a rare boss spawn or something, thats kind of okay. Annoying as shit, but they're suppose to be rare and difficult. For common quest related shit? You're getting nothing special out of them beyond being able to continue your quest chain.
You're basically arguing as if most mmos use 24 hour+ long spawn time mobs for menial quests like they're the standard. Like an mmo would have a thousand quests and 900 of them would have mob objectives that spawn every few days. They don't. At most, if someone gets to the quest first before you, you're being made to wait 15 mins or less.
>>335246090
if it really wasn't good they would have gone F2P years ago like every other MMO that failed.
>>335246243
>what are multiple servers
>>335245671
>>335245948
EVE is probably better then FF XIV, and it's awful.
reminder this is what runescape looks like today
>>335246347
>popularity = quality
>>335246347
>It's good because it's popular.
>>335246435
yeah dude a second job is better than a shitty game lmao
>>335246313
Even when the respawn timer is quick, its still causes problems in high traffic areas. I'm guessing you've never personally experienced this, which is why you're arguing that its fine.
>>335246240
That only works if the game is PVP, which most MMOs these days are not exclusively, and is also suggesting that the groups would only be from other factions as well.
>>335246467
They had to do it, the old guard had left already anyway
>>335246435
I love the concept of EvE, but the game is so dull to play.
>>335246539
What do you mean 'the game is PvP'?
What do you classify as a 'PvP game'? Any game where open world PvP and PKing is allowed? THat used the be the norm.
>>335246528
nice meme bro let me have a try
uh. EVE is like windows excel spreadsheets? Right? LOL
>>335246078
>Having only the largest groups camping out a spawn preventing anyone else from progressing is obnoxious as shit. Especially if its quest related.
>If its just an unrelated rare drop boss or something then sure thats fine. But I'm specifically talking about quest crap.
That guy was talking about Lineage though, which is why I'm also bringing up points from lineage.
There are only 4 important quests in the entire game. Out of those 3 of them are "necessary" but they can't be monopolized by groups.(class change quests, which are personal) The last important quest is the Nobless quest which is optional and you need to kill the Barakiel that guy mentioned.
Here's the thing though, you NEED a big group to kill Barakiel, it's not the sort of quest you finish alone. That's why you either ask your clan to help or join a party with other people who need to kill Barakiel. Someone who already finished the quest once doesn't gain much from killing him, so the only reason they could have to bother you is spite or boredom. But again the quest is optional and the entire point of MMOs is team work and groups. You don't reach level 78 and the criteria required to start nobless quest and don't already have a group of friends or clan.
Quests being the sole way to level up is the plague of new MMOs. I very much enjoyed territory contests.
>>335246528
Don't play MMO then, dumbass.
>>335246693
buttmad evefag detected
>>335244138
>>335246539
The game could spawn the boss in random locations. This freeform queue discussion is tripe.
>>335245602
Instances are awful for interesting play. It can be there if alternatives exist, but for main game design, the game might as well not be an MMO.
>>335246678
The gameplay? It's just D3 in space.
>>335246693
except thats exactly what it is lmao
>>335246382
you're going to daisy chain servers together and ignore the amount of netcode that goes into something like a persistent world?
>>335246678
Used to be, but isn't anymore. These days MMOs have PVP servers, and some even have a faction based PVP system, but PVP isn't a free for all typically like in older games.
>>335246120
Maybe currently. Non-shit MMOs are 100% possible.
>>335246786
it's xcel sheets if you've got the power of imagination
>>335246539
you seem to claim to have played mmos pre wow but you seem to have the attitude and preferences of a wow player
>>335246842
Even the old school MMOs were shit bro and no MMO exists that is good, they are all designed to be timewasting as possible so you pay the developers more money.
>>335246787
What are you talking about? Different servers means every server is it's own persistent world.
>>335246813
Exactly. Free for all PvP/PKing forces people to group up and modern devs can't have that, WoW babbies hate not feeling important.
>>335246853
when I start up a game I want to be playing something not logging in to "queue" leveling skills and then just log out
>>335246858
Nah, I didn't care much for WoW to be honest. However I can recognize the improvements it made in the genre due to having experienced MMOs prior to it.
>>335246750
>
Your argument.
>>335246786
See >>335246758
>>335246786
I know right?
It's like this huge dynamic sandbox of BORING, ha! LUUUUUUUL Right?
>>335246915
>Even the old school MMOs were shit bro
teenager detected
>>335246915
Jumpgate was pretty awesome
>>335246927
Yeah, but my point was that is only a solution if the game is made for PVP. If it has PVE or even faction based PVP then the problem persists because you can't just kill everyone who gets near.
Though honestly I wouldn't even call that a solution either.
>>335246915
I appreciated that Tera attempted a form of world PvP but it was ruined by the lackluster combat, horrible progression scaling that made it impossible to kill anyone 3 levels above you and FUCKING CHANNEL SYSTEM
>Uh oh I have to play around other people in this MMO, better switch to a channel where there isn't other people!
>>335246915
When you consider that every single game in a genre is shit, that's a good sign that you simply don't enjoy the genre itself, and nobody will give a shit about your opinion, which is like a vegan giving his opinion on meat.
>>335247045
meant for
>>335246927
>>335247004
Everquest literally started the Themepark MMO trend we know today and MMOS before it were garbage as well like Ultima "gank" online and even the precursor of MMOs called MUDs were largely shit.
>>335247019
It's hard for me to understand because I always thought of PvP as a part of PvE.
You PvP over a world boss, over a farm spot, etc etc. PvP and PvE happening together at the same time and being a flowing circle.
>>335247121
except that MUD code is literally inside everquest code and everquest is just a 3D MUD
>>335246539
It is fine. Having to play with other people is the point of an MMO. KSers are assholes and it sucks to hunt for a specific mob for an important quest, but that also encourages you to make friends who can help you find the mob and kill it. Interaction and all the negatives that come with it are integral to the multiplayer aspect of an MMO.
>>335247156
>BDO was going to do this until DAUM came on board
>>335247121
Everyone bashes theme parks but I like them. Why are they so bad exactly?
>>335247231
Why is it so hard to find people that think like this these days?
God I wish I was playing MMOs around the time they were doing stuff like this.
>>335247242
Because you're on rails essentially and the best/efficient path is laid out for you.
>>335247156
Thats simply PVP in a nutshell. You kill monsters and other players. PvE is usually just players vs mobs. Occasionally they semi-blend the two by adding some kind of faction system where players of one faction can attack another, usually needing to allow it in some way. PvP is just straight up you can attack people if you so feel like it.
>>335247176
Ironic, considering this whole argument started from "FFXIV is good" considering the whole game is the exact same to itself. If you played the game at 2.0 launch, you've played 3.0 launch. Hell, maybe even a worse 2.0.
>>335233598
I prefer something like FFXI and FFXIV where you can level up every class on one character, fit any role you want, and if you don't like one playstyle then you can freely switch to another job.
>>335247019
>Yeah, but my point was that is only a solution if the game is made for PVP. If it has PVE or even faction based PVP then the problem persists because you can't just kill everyone who gets near.
What pre-wow MMOs did you play exactly? Because all the ones with that system also had plenty of PvE, they weren't made with "just" PvP. UO, L2, SWG before it turned to shit, etc.
Lineage 2 also combined PvP with PvE on plenty occasions. There was a castle with a special event, when the castle siege started and players started fighting each other for it, a raid boss (pic) would spawn on the battlefield wrecking both sides.
>>335247045
>>335247107
I actually played Teran in the CBT, before they added the dungeon finder and it was shitloads of fun. PvPing over BAMs or outside dungeon entrances was the shit.
>>335247238
Been following BDO since 2012. It looked like the succesor to L2 I've been waiting for. Then I got to watch the slowly get ruined and turn into yet another shit grinder that doesn't realise if it wants to be a theme-park or a sandbox. EXACTLY like Archeage.
>>335245520
>reaching this fucking far to justify your shit mmo
>>335247231
The thing is.. You can and still do get those interactions regardless even with instances. I'm not sure why theres some bizarre chain of thought that Instance = Non interaction between players entirely.
>>335247242
because the modern themepark WoW mmo model simply measures how good players are by the time they have spend in the game. For many people, being able to predict your progression is really boring.
>>335247370
>I actually played Teran in the CBT, before they added the dungeon finder and it was shitloads of fun.
Fuck I didn't even know it was like that, wish I knew about it during CBT.
>Been following BDO since 2012. It looked like the succesor to L2 I've been waiting for. Then I got to watch the slowly get ruined and turn into yet another shit grinder that doesn't realise if it wants to be a theme-park or a sandbox.
I discovered BDO around the time I was realizing that sandbox was the true form of MMO. It was such an exciting thing to wait for but the realization that it was essentially Korea's Spore was crushing.
>>335247231
PVP server?
>you gank the guy blocking your way to your quest
PVE server?
>you call your friends and outfarm/tag/kill the mobs you need for the quest and push him out of the territory
>but nah, instance is the way to go. MUH XP.
What's the word for this? Cart before the horse?
>>335243920
Wakfu has turn-based combat and it was pretty good. The main issue with the game was poor developers and the somewhat childish themes. Combat was oftentimes really good.
>>335247385
Do you have brain damage or something?
>>335245520
currency is fucking useless in XIV though unless all you care about is making your character look cute.
best gear is earned by raiding, best melds can be earned from AFKing diadem, and not to mention the game literally throws gil at you for minimum effort if you do any crafting or gathering.
>>335247338
Are you tired or something? Why are you even assuming that PVP means there would be no PvE?
You do know what the difference between a PVP server and a PVE one is as an example, right?
>>335235449
>reflect earrings bounces back some faggots paralyze
>he forgot to bring trapped boxes
>explosion pot
>vas ort flam
>cor por
>halberd slap
>all of them hit him at once
>mfw
>>335247242
>leveling
Padding content. Becomes obsolete immediately after completion.
>thus no content except what's produced by the development studio
So.. there's nothing to do for whole patches of the game unless the profession and AH system provide ample farming and gold-making opportunity, but --
>no consequences
If there's no loss, there's really no depth.. no excitement. It's just about respawning and trying again. If there was perma-loss in some fashion, there would have to be some kind of sandbox style replacement (crafting, etc.), and it wouldn't be a theme park MMO.
>replaying the same raids on repeat is most of the max-level gameplay
Vs. exploring and PvPing for elite gear or payment, being in the middle of a zone for a boss and having to watch out for other groups..
>>335247420
>measures how good players are by the time they have spend in the game.
so same thing with a sandbox MMO?
>>335247516
Instance?
>Your group kills the mob and moves on to do other things.
>>335245853
It sells itself on what it doesn't do
-handholding
-instancing
-dungeon/raid finding.
It has no real pretences of not being an everclone.
>>335247457/v/ had a guild and we used to do massive guild war battles against /a/'s guild.
>>335247597
Not that guy, but to most old-school MMO players, there's no divide between PvP and PvE. Specifically saying PvE literally means something like, aggroing a raid boss and running to hide it to avoid PvP. Carebearing.
PvP and PvE are one and the same in older MMOs, PvP is just another part of PvE.
>>335247597
>Are you tired or something? Why are you even assuming that PVP means there would be no PvE?
Because you're the one who mentioned EXACTLY that?
>is only a solution if the game is made for PVP. If it has PVE...then the problem persists
You mentioned that the only solution is a game with JUST pvp. Can you really look back on that sentence and tell me this is not the message that comes across?
>>335247305
People got used to instant gratification.
>>335247392
My experience with MMOs that picked up on instancing is that it does make players less likely to interact with each other. Point me to an example where instancing hasn't reduced player interaction.
It's amusing that fucking Minecraft has harsher death penalties than most MMOs these days.
>>335247695
Most people aren't going to be making groups of friends if they never actually have to interact with people to get the things they want.
>>335247156
(Not following the conversation)
What you talk about is the main reason I enjoyed playing WoW PvP servers.
One would be mining, or fishing, or questing, but there's always the risk of being ganked. Sometimes building raids to crash opposite faction's raid killing a world boss. Sometimes PvP would last few minutes, sometimes it would last hours.
Shit was fun, sometimes hilarious.
>>335234181
>You can switch between builds whenever you want
No thanks
>>335247746
Yeah I know, but these days PVE and PVP have very specific definitions.
>>335247753
You genuinely don't seem to know what the difference between a PVP and PVE server is it seems.
Lemme dumb it down for you. If the game/server wasn't made for PVP.. Then you CAN'T kill other groups and force them away.
>>335247746
>/v/ had a guild and we used to do massive guild war battles against /a/'s guild.
I remember NFA and doing that stuff after release, but it didn't last that long unfortunately.Fucking Ulboarax
I prefer ones that let me make my waifu
Tera CBT was a great example actually. Instances existed, but no dungeon finder so you had to walk there.
Before the dugneon finder was added, there would be gank squads outside instance entrances. People would form groups and fight them, then keep their groups for the dungeon and for the next one, etc etc.
After it was added? Sit in town, press a button, wait. I was going to buy the game but changed my mind because of it.
>>335247916
That's still faction based. Faction based is forced PvP. In older MMOs, PvP happened organically, because you had to kill them in order to kill the boss, or defend your grinding spot, etc etc.
>>335247875
If people want to socialize they will. The same can be said about forcing grouping. If someone isn't exactly thrilled about socializing, they will just do the bare minimum to get by. You can say the waiting might force players to interact out of sheer boredom/necessity but again it tends to be down to individuals.
>>335248038
Don't you feel stupid when you see that 90% of the characters in game are waifus too?
>>335248059
people won't socialize if they don't have incentive to
Anyone still play UWO? I want to go back but if they made it P2W I would rather just play Sid's Meier's.
Would you play a MMO that:
>Allows you to play any class on a single character
>Each class has 20+ abilities and you can mixmatch some abilities with other classes
>Has open world boss fights and instanced boss fights
>Global chat network that lets you talk to everybody on your server in any zone
>Gets major patch content and balance changes added every 3 months
>>335248145
So whats forcing you to respond to this thread?
Me and my group of friend tried wow for kicks after quitting XIV shortly after the expansion. We all played wow before but never played together (we met in XIV).
It was my first experience with phasing, battle group integration where I can see other players from other servers on the map. The thing is, for 20 levels, it was quiet as hell. Outside of our own group, nobody wanted to interact. They just wanted to rush from quest to quest.
The one time things actually got 'social' was the time we went to west fall together, tried to hand in a quest but 2 high level gankers kept killing the quest npcs. People got mad and whiney and started talking and begging for the high level alliance players to do something. That's about the only time in our trial that things got exciting. Those horde gankers being able to target lowbies would have made it even better.
>>335234181
Several MMOs tried this it results in one build trumping all others with little else viable outside of gimmicks.
>>335247683
if you have a solid concept of progression it's not a sandbox mmo you goddman simpleton
>>335248194
your retarded comment desu
>>335248194
it's the entire purpose of the website and it's easy
>>335248168
Already played it years ago, it's called Lineage 2. It's exactly as you described.
>>335247941
>You genuinely don't seem to know what the difference between a PVP and PVE server is it seems.
And you genuinely don't seem to understand that there are games where such a difference does not exist.
> If the game/server wasn't made for PVP.. Then you CAN'T kill other groups and force them away.
Please tell me what "making a game _for_ PvP" means to you. Because to me it means "focusing the entire gameplay around PvP". i.e. mobas, shooters, etc.
Are you telling me that for you just being able to attack other players means "the game was MADE for pvp ?" Hot damn son you're some huge carebear.
>>335248168
>Global chat network that lets you talk to everybody on your server in any zone
Pure cancer, this destroys the game's immersion and community
>>335248168
>>>Global chat network that lets you talk to everybody on your server in any zone
I actually want to see an mmo that doesn't have any global or affiliation specific communication. Everything you 'say' is distance based.
So not only yell is not even the whole zone, you need to be right next to someone to whisper to them.
>>335248328
I'm genuinely beginning to wonder if you have problems here, mate.
Yes, there are games where theres no such thing as a PVE server. That was never the point though.
The point, which I've stated several times already, is that using a strategy that revolves around killing other players in a game that ISN'T designed solely around PVP doesn't work.
If there were PVE servers, that strategy just straight up can't exist. How is this a hard concept to figure out?
>>335248059
What's the point in making an MMO if you're not going to encourage players to socialize? Honestly, if you're going to instance everything you might as well make a regular old RPG. Those exist for people like yourself who can't handle things like waiting to find a mob, or to enter a boss' chamber, or being KSed.
>>335248447
That sounds neat on paper, but it seems like it would be detrimental to keeping in touch with friends in game/easily circumvented with Skype, Discord, etc.
>>335248562
>If there were PVE servers, that strategy just straight up can't exist. How is this a hard concept to figure out?
Have you never heard of mob trains? You sure you're not some wow babby?
>>335248447
>you are now realizing that this is what RuneScape was despite the graphics
hold me /v/, I should never have listened to the bullies who told me RuneScape was bad because of the graphics
>>335233598
The last non-eve MMO died with h&h. There will never be another real MMO ever again.
>>335248289
So you're saying you don't need an incentive to socialize. Nothing forced you to talk, and likewise, no one needs to be forced to socialize in games either. If someone wants to they will.
>>335247695
>you will kill mobs on your lonesome and won't talk to another player till endgame.
fixed it for you
>>335248728
His incentive to socialize on a forum is that there's not fucking gameplay to keep him doing something else.
>>335248038
There's something uncanny about her face
>if a MMO doesn't force me to talk then it's shit
>>335248562
We seriously need flags on /v/. If you had an australian flag I'd ignore that post. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Not that guy, but, why can't you understand that in older MMOs, there was no 'PvP and PvE' server.
The concept of PvP and PvE being divided did not exist.
PvP WAS A PART OF PvE.
>>335248679
Oh man, I forgot about mob trains. But are those even possible these days? I thought all newer MMOs only allowed mobs to get so far away from where they spawned.
>>335248728
People here will actually respond as the whole point of the website is to socialize. It's not something you can get away from here. In an MMO, you can very easily get away from socialization, and so you need incentive to keep them at it.
>>335248847
what's the point of an mmo if you don't have to?
>>335248848
Did you not read the fact that I understood that fact perfectly fine? I've played older MMOs. I KNOW that shit.
>>335248847
>if an MMO isn't an MMO then it's shit
No shit sherlock!
>>335248049
Oh yeah, I remember some ragnarok PVP servers andTibia
>>335248949
no you don't. you're a wow babby.
>>335248847
>LFG some world boss
>get invited
>say "hi"
>say nothing for the entire encounter
>"ty folks"
>leave
oh wow forced socialization so good
>>335248847
Now you're getting it!
>>335248949
Your post didn't seem like you do.
You literally kept going on and on about PvP and PvE servers when it's already been said in the thread many times that in older MMOs the divide didn't exist.
I really believe this divide between PvP and PvE is one of the main factors that ruined MMOs.
>there's not even a sandbox, fantasy non-MMO
Why hasn't a company just tried to copy WoW but with actual crafting and permaloss?
>>335249030
that's literally how i met half of my friends in everquest.
>>335249176
same here in FFXIV
>>335248847
Why would you play an MMO over a single player RPG then? Single player RPGs are better in every other way. That whole multiplayer gimmick is the only thing MMOs have going for them, so they best take advantage of it.
>>335249171
And not an MMO, obviously*
>>335249118
Its equally been stated over and over that I was saying that strategy would only work in a game that only had PVP. Which means that any game that separates the two, it wouldn't work in.
I can't believe I have to keep stating this shit plain as day.
>>335249030
How I met most of my friends in MapleStory.
>>335234685
if you dont want to play a mmoRPG then dont play a mmoRPG
>>335248168
ArcheAge is exactly that.
You even need to spend time/resources to learn the language of the enemy faction to be able to talk to them.Couldve been soooo good if not for shit company
>>335249353
>RPGs = leveling
>
Your argument.
>>335249030
>"can't type. need to keep pushing these gcds"
Am I the only one who thinks that hotbar mmos need to stop using global cooldowns and go back to individual cooldowns? What does gcd even do nowadays, other than just making you less effective if you're not always pushing a buton every x.x seconds?
>>335249030
>the encounter is so easy that it requires literally zero communication/coordination
there's your problem
>>335249171
IF only Dragon's Dogma had multiplayer
>>335249274
Then you just worded it badly.
And that situation wouldn't ever come up in a game that separates the two, the devs wouldn't let their wow baby audience get frustrated like that.
>>335249441
Doesn't it not have any semblance of 24 player+ gameplay?
Which mmo has the best RPG elements?
>>335249405
Console players need gcd to be able to even remotely keep up.
In other wordsconsoles shiting it up as usual
>>335249405
more MMOs need to follow XIV's example where weaponskills/spells trigger the GCD but abilities don't and they give you a fuck ton of abilities with short cooldowns
>>335249382
>buy SWG
>prior mmo experience to that was RO
>pick wookie as my first character
>mfw
>>335249228
because you play with other humans and not shitty AI?
>>335249479
>24+ multiplayer
You fucking moron, it's not even multiplayer.
It's one PC, with 3 NPC controlled Pawns that are basically NPC controlled PCs that are able to choose class, build stats, use skills, etc.
A perfect opportunity for 4 player adventure RPG and Capcom fucking cucked it
>>335249559
Runescape
>>335248168
A Realm Reborn?
>>335249752
Who are you playing with if you're not socializing?
>>335249654
I'm actually thinking about XIV when I mentioned GCD being garbage though. I raided on it as both tank and dps and I've been in both teams that didn't use voip and teams that used one. Without voip, everyone ended up being silent because most of the time they can't afford to type anything in combat cause it'll be a dps loss.
>>335249382
>spoiler
I feel the same for Skyforge, I really like the combat, classes and the world design. Too bad Allods are a bunch of jews and fucked the game already.
>>335249473
I worded it like six different ways, bout fucking time one of them stuck.
Regardless, my point was that was only a valid solution for a game that only had PVP. If it was divided into PVE and PVP servers, just killing people off is only gonig to be viable for half of it.
Someone suggested mob trains for PVE, which is possible. But I'm not sure how viable it is in newer games. Older ones let you drag a whole fucking zone with you if you were feeling malicious enough.
>>335249893
probably controller players who can't afford to drop their controller and type on a keyboard
but that's why PS4 party chat is a thing
>>335249816
why would I want to chat with some retarded teenagers if I can just go to 4chan?
>>335250008
Dragging a large traing and AOEing them down was a very common PvE method in older MMOs. Widely used because of it's great mana efficiency and mana was pretty rigged in older games.
Then you also had shit like carebears aggroing a raid and running a marathon with it to avoid the PvP over it.
>tfw i was actually hyped for a while
>>335250139
Why would you play a game that revolves around cooperating with other people if you don't want to have to cooperate with them? And if you're already okay with chatting with retarded teenagers, what's wrong with doing it in a game too?
>>335249171
>there's not even a sandbox, fantasy non-MMO
minecraft
>>335249785
You sir are very wrong. I'm not going to give you a better example because you are going to deny it even though you lack knowledge.
>>335250205
I think they were suggesting using mob trains as an offensive tool. Like grabbing a massive train of mobs or tough mobs and dragging it into an invading group to prevent them from stealing your kill or getting them killed.
>>335250348
>Spam-Click: The Game
GW1 had the best leveling system.
Choose base class, freedom to chose any secondary. Pick 8 skills out of a deck of a thousand to force great synergy.
Primary class gives one special trait bonus, and you can spec attribute points however you want.
>>335250443
what a retarded criticism
>>335250076
No, even with the 2 second gcd you simply cannot be as elaborate with typing as using voip. Especially when shit goes wrong and you need to make on the fly specific instructions that would wipe the entire party if you didn't fix it in a couple seconds. The only way a short gcd and high communication work is to have voip as a natural part of the game, not a 3rd party tool. I'd rather have typing 'back' though.
>>335250413
Another thing that happened alot in L2.
>rogue classes have Fake Death, that deaggros mobs from you
You can imagine the rest. See a group with a gay-ass elf in it? Yeah, time to train those fuckers and fake death next to them.
Used to be EXTREMELY common and rather infuriating when it happened to you.
>>335233598
I'm currently playing FF14 and I think it is an ideal MMO for me. It's not for everyone but it does what it does well.
Enough content to keep you busy for hundreds of hours, runs well on toasters but looks great on nice computers, easy to make friends in the game, and the controls/UI are very customizable.
I like set classes, but I like duel or cross classing like the original Guild Wars. That had the best fucking skill and class system ever.
>>335250547
I kind of miss shit like that from other games. Was always hilarious to drag a massive train of tough mobs into a town or something and watch the chaos unfold. Its a thing of beauty to have a newbish town turning into some kind of warzone.
>>335250547
Yeah, you seem to just want to make anything you don't like to disappear. That's literally wow talk right there.
>>335250313
saying hi on your guild chat/TS or spamming LFG isn't the part of cooperation I'm interested in when playing vidya
>>335250413
Fun stuff. You could even setup traps with this by luring the monsters near the entrance. Earlier on Tibia even had a bug where if the monsters were lured away from their initial spawning spot, an another monster would spawn in the original spawning location even if the original was still alive. You could keep doing it to cause massive overspawn.
Not to mention fun stuff like roping dangerous monsters out of caves or luring giants spiders to roads where newbies walked.
>>335249405
FF is the only MMO that does this tbH faM.
You won't fix the "can't type" problem this way anyway, you'd need a combat system like dofus/wakfu (allows plenty of talk to chat between turns, back when the game wasn't trying to be turned-based wow, this really engaged people to socialize even with strangers and everything), or a quick-chat system (a very large set of phrases speakable through hotkey-chains like in tribes, e.g. vgy = yes, vgn = no, vpi = want to party? vge = too easy!, stuff like that). If there are enough phrases, it would still not be as good as being able to type while fighting, but people will definitely use this to communicate while fighting, including to do smalltalk.
>>335250530
or people need to get gud at typing, I can play MNK and type during savage fights no problem but that's because I do 120WPM on average.
>>335250696
>tfw summoning high level mobs in the middle of a popular noob hangout
Being an asshole was fun as fuck.
>>335250301
it still hurts
>>335250696
Someone did that in WoW once when I was a noob. It's always hilarious for everyone involved. The noobs shit brix, the hls laugh at the noobs shitting brix.
>>335250547
That sounds fun though.
>>335250972
That kind of stuff made for awesome impromptu events. I remember back when people would release tamed dragons and other high level pets in the middle of a popular city.
Pity newer games don't allow creative assholedom anymore.
>>335251139
It's hilarious the first time, but it's just gay the hundredth time.
>>335251193
Sounds like you're a faggot desu.
>>335251135
I didn't even know that was possible in WoW with how short their leashes were. Though I do remember when the honor system or whatever the hell it was called and you had massive multi raid group armies attacking towns and marching through zones.
>>335250862
Meh. mnk have the short gcd but they are usually the one that are given the least responsibility and mechanic. Most raid teams would rearrange specific tactics just so that the monks don't have to deal with anything. T7, T8, T12 and T10 comes to mind.
>>335251139
It was shitloads of fun when you did it to others.
It wasn't as fun when it happened to your group, you all lost hours worth of XP and needed 30 mins to walk back back because you were deep as fuck in a high-level dungeon.
Every dagger class was pk on sight, but fags had stealth, which allowed them to move through mobs w/o aggroing.
>>335251280
I also tank on Warrior and heal on AST. It's easy as hell to type and play at the same time with a 2s GCD if you don't have the typing skills of a grandma.
>>335250696
>>335251158
>>335250972
Yeah and these hundred long post arguments basically came from someone who thinks the things you guys liked are terrible because it interrupted his questing and xping instead of seeing it as part of life in an mmo.
>>335251158
but thats toxic anon no one should be ever harmed by anything,everything has to be streamlined and everyone should be the legendary hero of everything.
i fucking hate this generation.
>>335251268
There was also another way, beside leashing all the way to town: be warlock, summon a high-level summon and don't chain it. Bonus point if you do the ritual summon.
>>335251372
>can right at most 20 characters assuming 120 WPM
Sure bro whatever you say.
I almost wish I played WoW, so I could understand why people always talk about it killing MMOs.
>>335251158
Funny thing is I was usually on the receiving end of that kind of shit. Though eventually, since I played a tanky class in the game I'd just watch everyone die and laugh. Shit was always funny.
>>335251440
This kind of thought process lead to the decline of MMOs.
>>335251568
better than 90% of people out there
>>335251590
because every mmo is a fucking copy of wow
and wow itself is absolute shit now
>>335251790
I get that, but it still doesn't mean much to me since I never experienced WoW myself, you know?
>>335251671
Which one? The "it interrupted my questing so it's bad" line of thought or my post itself?
>>335251885
Vanilla WoW was actually pretty good.
>>335251890
The 'it's' bad' thing.
All modern MMOs are like that because they basically removed the ability to have fun on the expense of other players. Because wow-babbies and casuals called it 'toxic' and 'unfun'.
That's one of the main reasons that turned MMOs to shit.
MMOs used to be about freedom and being a dick was just part of the game.
>>335251885
It's basically just casualization. They removed player networking by adding dungeon finders so you just press a button and wait for the game to make the party for you. They simplified alot of things because they thought it's too complicated for a lot of players and that it would frustrated them. They removed many gameplay aspects that would lead to player clashes and disagreements because they thought it would frustrate the 'victim' leading to everyone's time line to barely crossing other players'.
>>335251440
Thats kinda hilarious, considering two of those posts are from the same person who you seem to think considers this stuff terrible.
>>335251790
WoW is a copy of Everquest after Tigole and his poopsocking raid guild ruined it, your point?
>>335246076
I registered to L2 classic, any idea when its coming out?
Remember it said something like "if we get 50k registers we will consider doing it"
>>335252150
MMOs removed griefing because they were losing casual players (MONEY) to it.
>>335252174
Then he's a hypocrite. Plain and simple.
>>335249353
There's more to RPGs than just levelling.
>>335252319
Not really, since griefing was never the subject.
>>335252196
>any idea when its coming out
It's already out last december
>>335252174
Unless you're >>335250547, >>335251304. He quoted you because he agrees with you.
>>335252292
I think it was the other way around, they removed features that sometimes could amount to griefing in order to attract casual players, like WoW did.
Many people here consider vanilla WoW hardcore, but at it's time, it was literally the kindergarten of MMOs.
>>335252438
I'm only one of those people, but I'm also the person who he thinks is shitting on people's parades or whatevs.
>>335252292
aiming for a wider audience always backfires though
>>335252519
it worked for WoW and the dozens of clones out there
doesn't matter if those games aren't good now, they already took millions of dollars from casuals and ran.
>>335252438
Maybe he's just retarded.
>>335252514
So you're one of the dude's I quoted? I don't really see any other obviously negative posts towards it.
>>335252627
And ruined a whole genere in the process.
Alot of people nostalgia hard over WoW, but it's the best example of a game single-handely ruining a whole genre. Not even COD did that.
>>335252739
>Yeah and these hundred long post arguments basically came from someone who thinks..
>>335252757
>tfw even single player RPGs are going to shit because of casuals and their various breeds
>>335252814
He's assuming samefag mistakenly then I guess? It's clear which posts he's referring to, and to be fair I figured the guy(s) complaining about people being dicks for shits and giggles were involved in the original argument too.
>>335252757
Don't blame WoW, blame developers and publishers for taking the safe and tried&true route to get money.
MMOs are a expensive risk
>>335252814
So you mentioned that you missed griefing with mob trains AND you're the person who suggested instances are a good thing because it lets players avoid inconveniences like having to compete for mobs in the open world?
Yes or no. The question is simple.
>>335252436
Well I never found out, in on my phone now so ill check it at home.
Is it good? Like le olde times?
>>335253023
Yep. I miss mob trains and creative griefing, but I get why instances are better for gameplay overall.
>>335253051
Apprently it's even more grindy than the old times.
Also, there was no Adrenalin back in the old times. Walker didn't do half the shit Adrenalin does and it wasn't as easy to get.
I'm a bit confused, who's supossed to be what...?
>WAHH MMOS DON'T CATER TO THE NICHE HARDCORE CROWD ANYMORE
>>335250510
>the gameplay is shallow, potentially the worst in all of the industry
Seems based.
>>335253363
>niche
>>335253481
>WoW
>niche
pick one
>>335253051
It's pretty great, i'm playing casually and there aren't that many bots compared to normal server. It's harder to do stuff so make sure you join an active guild
>>335253467
that wasn't what he said
>>335237864
>Indie MMO
That's like building an indie aircraft carrier, anon. It's too big a project
>>335253523
we're talking about a target audience, not a game itself.
WoW was most successful when it was extremely hardcore compared to what it's like now.
>>335253020
>MMOs are an expensive risk
This is a meme. Game engines are literally free to start with now.
>muh assets
That would be backpedaling.
>>335253590
>It's too big a project
It's really not if they can scope it correctly.
They don't have to build a fully fledged MMO right off the bat, just build a MVP to see if it's fun.
The most fun I've had in MMO's was in private servers where they host GM run events like mobs invading a town, or in the Guild Wars 2 beta where they had events like a server-wide Hunger Games thing.
>>335253572
What does it seem that post is discussing?
>>335253590
See >>335253727
It's just implementing phasing into 50 sq. yd. mini-instances over a nicely sized realm. Even WoW does this -- that TDM BG had to instance players within the instance. Everything else is just about decent planning.
>>335253674
WoW was never "extremely hardcore" just time consuming to make people pay Blizzard more money.
>>335253727
Custom built engine to suit your needs > Some fucktard licensed Unity or UE4 engine.
>>335237864
Fuck nu-male pixel art indie shit
>>335253928
>Custom built engine to suit your needs > Some fucktard licensed Unity or UE4 engine.
>
Your source.
>>335253927
>What does it seem that post is discussing?
He was crying about having to click a lot.
>>335253928
>compared to
Let's make sure we read the entire post next time bud.
>>335253928
>Custom built engine to suit your needs > Some fucktard licensed Unity or UE4 engine.
Please, non-game developer, give me more of your expert opinions.
>>335254007
Any Unity/Unreal Engine MMO is pure dog shit.
>>335253674
As someone who is not very hardcore (about the only mmo I've managed to do everything in the game is XIV), I feel an mmo is at its best when I can't see everything that it has to offer. I feel like I'm barely scratching the surface and all I gotta do is keep playing and maybe I'll see them someday. Making the game too easy to reach the top at makes it less mysterious. That's how I feel with XIV anyway. By the start of the expansion, I already knew what to expect. It's just lame. I think this applies to the majority of the casuals playing mmos, they just don't know it.
>>335254084
You know TERA ran on Unreal Engine 3, right?
>>335234807
Here you go might as well get rid of combat too.
>>335254023
I made that fucking post. There's no reason to suggest Minecraft's spammy click-combat in an MMO thread.
>>335254156
And most NCsoft MMOs run on UE2 or 3.
>>335254156
TERA is heavily unoptimized though. What's your point?
>>335245097
Aion WAS good but it went full retard. I gave up on trying to find a good MMO and just started playing WoW private servers as they're my best option right now.
>>335254156
and look at how fucking shit it is, it went F2P in under a year and it runs terrible.
I honestly believe the best mmo at this point would have combat similar to Blade and Soul and questing like Guildwars 2.
>>335254259
>A game with hundreds of entities on screen does not run at a constant 60 frames per second on my machine therefore it is a prime example of a terrible MMO
>>335254259
Not that guy, but I wouldn't call it unoptimised.
I remember the CBT, that NFA vs TFT mass PvP guild war battle with over 200 players duking it out.
I was getting 40 fps on a gtx 580 and q9550, which was really good for a mass PvP with hundreds of players fighting on screen.
>>335244515
Yeah it's a freeshard
Look up Uthgard. I almost don't want to post it here in the hopes of it not getting over run too early on but I doubt many of the younger people here will be able to stomach or tolerate it.
>>335254390
That still has absolutely nothing to do with the engine it runs on.
>>335252436
link ?
tried to google but there is a paid one and another different free one.
>>335254459
I have a i5 2500k and GTX 760 and I get the same framerate even when I'm by myself.
>>335254250
A non-mmo was asked for and Minecraft met the criteria.
>>335234181
Worked so well for ESO
>>335254434
>and questing like Guildwars 2.
Oh fuck no.
>>335254646
I returned to the game a year ago, with a 2500k and the same 580 most of the time the FPS was around the 70ies. It dropped as low as 20 in Velika though.
>>335254696
Because?
>>335254692
And it was called out for being Spam Click, the game.
>>335254916
And I said that it was a retarded criticism, which it is. Maybe you should have called it out for its shallow combat if that's what you're deflecting to.
>all these heated arguments and debates
>clearly the passion for mmo is there
>there's no company/publisher around that is willing to deliver
So sad.
Questing: Runescape
Skills: Runescape
Structured PvP: WoW arena/BG with matchmaking; all players given equal gear.
Item/loot: Runescape (I have no idea why the fuck items in general were so well done)
Art: WoW (stylized and somewhat cartoony rather than hyper-realism/generic Korean MMO nonsense)
Geography: Aion (Had realistic yet interesting landscapes; it was especially beautiful if you managed to get out of bounds as there were complete landscapes that weren't meant to actually be traversed by players). Many MMOs fail in this as zones tend to be plains surrounded by a mountain range
Combat: TERA
Dungeons: A cross between vanilla WoW dungeons and GW2's puzzles assuming decent difficulty. Vanilla dungeons had excellent design for the most part as they were sufficiently long at least interesting, visually speaking.
Probably forgetting a lot, but this for now.
>>335255330
I hate Runescape's questing. I don't like puzzle games or platformers either.
>>335255330
>BG with matchmaking; all players given equal gear.
dropped
>>335255330
>Structured PvP
This shouldn't even exist.
>>335254601
The paid one is the official EU server.
The free one is a private server
>>335255330
PvP should be able to happen anywhere but towns desu.
>>335255494
This.
PvP and PvE should be one and the same thing.
>>335255694
Ultima online had good pvp.
>>335255057
What else would the criticism be about?
>>335255494
World PvP is a fucking joke, 90% of it is getting ganked by players 5x your level.
>>335255681
I do agree with this, structured can also exist along side it though.
>>335255481
Twinks kind of ruin it
>>335255858
>LOOK AT ME I HAVE LITERALLY NEVER PLAYED A PROPER MMO IN MY LIFE
>>335245230
Sounds boring. Most people don't want to afk for hours doing shipping runs from point A to B.
>>335255858
>levels
Gross.
>>335255953
We get it, you suck at PvP so you just camp lowbies all day
>>335245230
It has a toxic community at higher levels but you should try Fallen Earth.
>>335256060
Staged PvP might as well not be PvP.
It's ok, we know you're too young to have played a real MMO.
>>335256180
>more generic insults
>Staged PvP might as well not be PvP.
You keep saying this but offer no actual argument as to why
>>335256295
Let me rephrase it then. Staged PvP is not terrible in it's own right.
But it should never replace proper, open world PvP that revovles around competition over world bosses and popular farming spots as well as clan wars.
>>335255330
I need either world pvp, War of Emperium style stuff, WvW/RvR
No idea how Arena or BG are.
>>335256113
>people are dicks in a post-apocalyptic world
Immersion preserved
>>335240570
i miss mabinogi ;_;
>>335252292
Obviously not given that MMOs are literally no longer able to survive if they're not called wow.
That is, EXCEPT when they allow being a dick, such as in eve.
>>335256532
But the mere existence of staged pvp would take away from integrated pvp. Therefore it should not exist as I said in >>335255494
>>335256754
Staged PvP doesn't hurt if it only exists for the sake of PvP and nothing else.
If there are no raids spawning soon and noone's pking our clan's bot party at the popular farming areas, signing up for some sort of staged PvP event to have some fun isn't a bad thing, as long as that event doesn't give rewards that could replace open world farming.
>>335256754
I do like zoned pvp so at least you only go in there if you feel your ready. It does suck to get ganked by a level 30 over and over if your only lvl 5 say.
people don't want mmos, they want those cookie clicker games with a fantasy skin so they can watch the numbers go up a little bit every six months.
they don't play mmos like you'd play a normal game, if something is disrupting their play they don't consider the possibility of going somewhere else they cry about ganking and demand it to be banned.
If an encounter is too hard they wont come back to it later or try a different tactic, they cry about it on a forum because they don't care about the gameplay only seeing their numbers go up a little bit.
endgame is everything, all that stuff you do until you reach max level? that isnt gameplay that's something you should rush through as quickly as possible without paying any attention because it's simply an obstacle to letting you watch your numbers go up as you afk in town.
>>335257016
I hate it.
>>335256754
>>335256945
Staged PvP should only exist as a literal side-game. Characters would all be standardized in models and in names, everybody would be anonymous and have the same gear, and these alts would not be able to go to the main world. There would be some kind of hub where pvp alts could get their equipment and skills set and shit, but that's about it.
>>335255330
Questing: Runescape with a wakfu twist
Skills: Mabinogi
PvP: Runescape
Item/loot: Pre-nerf wakfu (need X people in party for a drop to be possible, all drops are pretty rare, some classes reduce the value of X and significantly increase droprate)
Art: tricksters online or tos
Geography: Whatever. Firefall or something. The most important part is secret hard-to-find areas which may yield secret quests.
Combat: mabinogi or dofus
Dungeons: open format (I think runescape and mabinogi both had that, tricksters definitely had that), boss respawns at set intervals, teleports everyone in the room outside the dungeon a set time after being defeated. Only whoever dealt the killing blow gets the loot. Friendly-fire enabled for bonus points.
FTFY
>>335257016
I hate that mmo and fantasy are that synonymous. For a while there I wouldn't even try a mmo unless it wasn't fantasy.
>>335255839
The fact that you have to click a lot.
>>335255858
WPvP isn't always a joke. High level players ganking low level players is a minority occurence from my experience. The good stuff is groups of level-capped highly geared players clashing over a world boss or resources. It's really fun tbqh.
>>335257547
Yes, a time-waster sidegame thet doesn't really affect the main world of the game. Although I think using your character for it would be better.
The thing with staged PvP is that it can create some situations that open world PvP can't bring about. And of course, we're talking about instanced Battlegrounds.
If you mean sieges and territory wars as staged PvP then I have to disagree.
>>335257016
To be fair, you can't really play a MMO like many other games. Strictly speaking, gear and level count for everything. Experimenting is usually penalized with high costs for respecs and getting gear is usually very time costly. Hell, even having access to your full kit doesn't happen until you're max level.
>>335257813
That along with the heavy time investments they require. And if you really want a toxic community add in the ability to make real world cash from your game.
>>335252627
even WOW began bleeding when they took casualisation too far.
Furthermore i would argue that WOW attracted a lot of players with it's very detailed world, at the time impressive visuals, warcraft's already existing fanbase and past a certain point trough word of mouth.
>>335257813
If you made it so levels didn't matter, skills leveled with usage and gear was everything in terms of stats, experimentation would be possible without making it feel too cheap
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