![latest[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/9iuY3ez.png "latest[1].png")
Was Joel a baddie? He basically killed a lot of innocent people, tortured people for information, and then killed them afterwards.
what innocent people did he kill?
>>334929805
The firefly people. Those hunters.the doctors
He mentions he used to hold up and mug people in cars.
>>334930093
the fireflies were armed and gunning for him. don't remember which hunters you're talking about. the doctors were fireflies.
>>334929696
Not everything is black and white, especially in a world such as The Last Of Us.
>>334931151
>Not everything is black and white, especially in a world such as unimaginative bog standard zombie apocalypse setting
ftfy
>>334931424
Actually they're infected, not zombies, try educating yourself, kid ;)
>>334931424
>PCucks are so bored cause they have no games they have to shit up other threads on /v/
>>334929696
What you don't understand is that TLOU is entirely filled with "baddies".
To be more precise, there are no baddies, or good guys either.
The whole game is centered around Ellie because she is the only "pure" being in the game.
Hunters are assholes but they try to survive and are honest with themselves. They're assholes, but assholes that survive. In the last of Ellie's chapters you can hear them trying to put their wifes and children in safety.
Fireflies were the worst for me, in the sense that they were convinced that they were the good guys when they were just killing immune people to get the cure, even though it had always failed until then. Marlene thinks she's doing the good thing, even though she's clearly as bad as the hunters. I had a blast slaughtering them.
They're trying to find a cure to save humanity when there's no humanity left except in Ellie.
Joel is the only one to understand that.
>>334930093
>fireflys
>innocent
So this is a bait thread?
Just look at what he did in the end. Instead of potentilly saving mankind from the infection by letting the Fireflies dissect Ellie's, he killed most of the Fireflies, stole Ellie back, and lied to her about what they were doing. All of this so he didn't have to give up what is essentially a new daughter to him.
Yeah. Joel was a baddie considering all the things he's done.
>>334931549
Fireflies are the worst because they're retarded
>Lets kill immune people to make a vaccine
>not cure, vaccine
>fail shitloads of times, clearly cant do it
>lets keep killing anyway
>also no way to mass produce a vaccine if they get it right
>no way to distribute
>doesnt get rid of all the murderous infected
>doesnt stop humans from killing eachother for dwindling resources
>>334931424
It's just a video game
>>334931762
>fail shitloads of times
Where in the game is this ever stated?
>>334931737
he saved ellie because they were going to cut her skull open. i don't think it had as much to do with the daughter thing as people think. it was just, there's this young kid he's spent the past year with, and these people are going to kill her and they're holding him hostage with an armed guard so he doesn't try to stop them.
>>334931892
The fireflies say near the end that they've tried the procedure on other immune people like Ellie but it never worked
>>334929696
The ending was a retarded and selfish move on Joel's part, but as far as character writing goes it does make sense since he starts the game cold and aloof to Ellie but gradually goes throgh character development until she has become the daughter he lost to him.
So of course at the end he freaks out because he doesn't want to go through that kind of loss again, even though his actions basically mean no vaccine for humanity.
Thing is, we can see this as a stupid move because we're all ultimately outside observersand even though we can grow to like Ellie as a character we won't form an attachment to her that can defy a basic utilitarian moral argument.
In a movie, it would have been a really powerful moment because you literally are just watching the caharacters do things, but in a game it feels like tha game is going full retard because you're in control and very likely aren't going to feel the same way about the situation as Joel.
>>334931950
No, Joel says that to Ellie when she wakes up (He lies) It's never stated that the fireflies have found another immune person and tried anything with them.
>>334932093
The black firefly woman does say that though
>>334930093
How the fuck are the hunters innocent? They're cannibals who either kill or forcibly recruit anyone they find. You might find their urge to survive understandable but they're definitely not innocent.
>>334932093
It's also stated in an optional cassette tape. So, no, Joel wasn't really lying when he said there were others like her.
>>334931896
Nah, man. He had grown to think of her as his daughter.
He even says "I got you, baby girl" at the end when he's carrying her. That's what he always called his daughter.
>>334931994
>retarded move on Joel's part
How is it retarded? Sacrificing somebody he loves for a hail mary seems like the dumb option.
>>334932416
Agreed.
>>334932354
that's not why he saved her though. he would have done the same thing for any child.
>>334932601
I disagree.
>>334932601
nah dude.
>>334932416
Sacrificing a loved one for a cure for a deadly disease that caused a zombie plague? It would save tons of lives and allow humanity to take back their world.
Looking from a pure numbers side of things it makes sense to sacrifice Ellie for that.
But that said my point in the original post was that Joel's decision wasn't based in pure logic because Ellie is a loved one.
>>334932601
Joel probably killed children in the desperate early times he talked about. He's not the altruistic type.
>>334932815
>>334932929
of course he would have. the fireflies are crazy and desperate and that was a little kid in there.
>>334931737
Is it bait?
Fireflies are trying to find a cure for nothing. Humanity is done for, that's the point of the game. The world is filled with cannibals, psychos, bandits killing over nothing and you're telling me that finding a cure for humanity is a good thing.
Ellie is the only one that still has humanity. She has hope, innocence, values, friendship. The end is a reverse bad ending. You think that Joel doomed humanity when he actually saved it.
He saved humanity by choosing to save Ellie. This is metaphorical, sure but it is still true.
Look at Tommy's city, humanity can rebuild itself without vaccine.
The point is that Humanity doesn't need vaccines, it needs values like friendship, protection of those weaker than you, determination, all shown in the character of Joel who decides to face reality (unlike the fireflies) and takes the path of redemption.
>>334933115
Except Ellie will grow up and probably end up a slutty manipulative mercenary cunt like basically every other adult character in the game.
>>334933083
Joel was very much a loner type that didn't give a shit about anyone or anything(Outside of Tess) when he first met Ellie. Losing his daughter made hime that way.
He saved Ellie because she gave him that back. I don't think he would have done that for a random. I'm sure he's seen more than his fair share of child deaths after his daughter.
>>334933271
tess is a good example of just how much humanity was left in joel. he was a strong man and the apocalypse didn't affect him as much as it did to other people. same goes for tess. they were strong people and they were still sane, and they would have risked their lives to save a child no matter the circumstances. he was probably well past the life expectancy anyways.
>>334932962
He has no guarantee that the fireflies will even be able to develop a vaccine, let alone distribute it in any meaningful way. You don't sacrifice something so important to you unless you know for sure. Plus Joel doesn't give a shit about the rest of the world.
>>334933451
Maybe, but I personally don't think Joel would have done it for a random.
>>334933484
Which makes him a very realistic character.
>>334933234
That's called adulthood anon.
People grow up and with experience come maturity. She will be like Joel, not bad nor good. Just trying to survive.
The Fireflies are children. They believe in the force of good, they believe that the vaccine will save them. They're grasping at straws, they're desperate and can't face the face reality.
That's the difference between Joel and the Fireflies.
>>334931549
This is retarded, it's just a "muh Ellie is pure!" bullshit
The fuck is with people who post that?
Humanity, even in reality when shit isn't apocalyptic are assholes
That's what human beings are
Doesn't mean it's all bad, a character not being all good or evil completely is a sign of good writing
Who gives a fuck about Ellie anyways
So what if she does live?
She won't live a happy life in that world, and she'll become like those "assholes" to survive anyways
You sound fucking retard by the way
>>334933926
The people at tommy's fort weren't assholes
>>334932093
>No
Yes
https://youtu.be/jtu918mfeHc
Skip to 1:40
>>334929696
Joel, I think us are the last of them.
C'MON FROM, what writing is that?!
>>334931994
nihilistic anti-natalist here. tips *fedora/shines katana/exercises wicked sense of humor*
i would've saved Ellie and just try to stay comfy while humanity died out. desu i probably would've killed myself years before, but that wouldn't make a good game narrative
>>334929696
No such thing as good and bad
Just dead and alive
>>334933926
Ahah wow...
She is pure in a metaphorical sense. She still kills people and all that, dude. It's just symbolism. She represents innocence and childhood.
And learn to fucking read, I just said that all humans are assholes.
No character in TLOU is bad or good.
It's like you can't read or analyze things with subtlety.
>Who gives a fuck about Ellie anyways
Joel does and that's the point. Ellie is everything to him.
>She won't live a happy life in that world, and she'll become like those "assholes" to survive anyways
Nobody said she would dumbfuck.
>You sound fucking retard by the way
I don't know man, you seemed to miss the whole point and the main themes of the game. Next time, make sure you're not a retard before insulting others of retards, you meme-spouting fuck.
Joel not banging her is so retarded and gay
I don't care if he's good or bad, he's a fag either way
>>334931994
There's no guarantee that Ellie would have produced a vaccine anyway. In fact, it's implied that the Fireflies were a bunch of hacks anyway, and that she probably would have died on the operating table like all the others.
Humanity is not necessarily any more or less fucked than it had been before.
>>334932601
>>334933083
>>334933451
are you 12 or autistic? serious question. i struggle to understand how someone cant understand a basic narrative like this
>>334933271
this
>>334934786
>muh themes
The "themes" are very clear and showed in your fucking face
>humans are assholes and the world is peaceful without us
This is nothing
Only an isolated child could actually think anything in the last of us writing is something of great note
Most games are just written so poorly that characters are literally
100% good guy
and 100% bad guy you gotta kill
I like it how TLOU kinda avoids that, but I still don't think it's all that great
I mean it's a very simple story, a safe one and it's presented well
Props off to that
>>334934928
the narrative and its characters are open to interpretation like any other story. i don't see what joel has to lose by putting his life on the line for a kid. if he really didn't give a shit about anyone he would have abandoned ellie after Tess died and his chances of success plummeted. that was long before he had developed an attachment to her.
>>334935038
>The "themes" are very clear and showed in your fucking face
That's true, but apparently, some people still can't understand them.
Some people still think that the ultimate goal of the game was the vaccine and were disapointed when Joel fliped out.
TLOU is litteraly "muh journey is more important than the destination" personnified and it does a great job at that.
>>334935038
nah, im with this dude >>334934786
> The "themes" are very clear and showed in your fucking face
you don't even grasp the themes and this discussion thread makes it clear, that.. its not that clear
> Only an isolated child could actually think anything in the last of us writing is something of great note
its damn well written. and more than that the gameplay/narrative actually holds together which is R A R E as fuck in games. swapping perspective to Ellie at the end so we see Joel from another perspective, and see Ellie is coming into her own is brilliant and so is the ending. Game nails all its themes and keeps up a pacing/gameplay as well. imo its a masterpiece, especially compared to todays AAA market. i dunno why /v/ tries to sleep on TLOU, i guess its cause le mustard race cant play it
>>334935958
/v/ is contrarion and hates anything that isn't arcadey and demanding of "extreme vidya skills for hawdcore vidya gaymers". Anytime something is oriented around the story, it gets ass blasted. I love gameplay more than the story, but I still thoroughly enjoyed the last of us. Also, the multiplayer was surprisingly pretty fun. Especially with friends, which I suppose many on /v/ lack. Crawling away while bleeding out and having a friend run up and shiv someone preparing to bash your face in with a 2x4 was pretty cool.
>>334935958
>imo its a masterpiece
y-you shouldn't say that on /v/ dude...But I totally agree with you, TLOU is a well-written and great game
>>334933484
Which makes him realistic and well written, just not very ultilitarian.
I think his character would have worked better in an actual movie though rather than a game where you're in control of the situation because I don't have the same emotional connection to Ellie that Joel has so I can look at things in a more logical risk vs. reward way.
>>334929696
Grey is a thing too, you know. He's just a broken man who doesn't care anymore who is then thrust into a situation in which he's forced to. He chooses to be a father rather than a steel hearted 'good guy'.
>>334937449
>>334935537
its much darker than that. joel doesn't choose to be a father, nor is he saving a child. he is doing ANYTHING it takes to keep Ellie, for his own selfish reasons.
look at the ending. we're playing as Ellie (why? because it distances us from joel and lets us see him in a new perspective) and Joel (after having just killed everyone) is having a happy monologue moment saying "you and my daughter would have been best friends", ellies response is "yeah". she doesn't trust him and asks him if he was telling the truth because she was ready to die and it wasn't joels call.. joel lies to her face. the final shot: ellie doesn't believe him, but in a defeated/resolved way just goes along with it, because who else does she have at this point?
theyre both pretending. joel is pretending that he has his daughter back. ellie is pretending not to see the things joel has done. the title "the last of us" can be read many ways.. but also the ending.. because this is the last of any honest relationship between ellie and joel. now they have even lost that and must pretend they haven't.
its a very dark ending. there's no hope. everyone is doing the best they can, with what they have, which is twisted in all kinds of ways
>>334929805
The gov soldiers on guard in the very beging. Considering that its implied young people have lotterys and are drafted the guards were pretty much low level grunts on guard duty that joel and lady killed when they were smuglers.
>>334931896
>He saved ellie
He lied to her because he knew she would make the sacrifice.
>>334939158
i personally didn't kill any of them. if joel actually killed anyone it would have to have been in a cutscene, or during the sniper part.
>>334931549
>The whole game is centered around Ellie because she is the only "pure" being in the game.
Is that why she shanks a soldier in the neck that's just doing their job when Ellie's getting scanned so Joel and Tess don't find out she's infected?
>>334929696
He's a selfish person.
>>334939108
It was exactly why I fucking loved the ending.
The whole point of the story was to forcibly ask the question if morality even exists in an absolute way. And it took a post-apocalyptic setting to ask that, because you keep witnessing humanity losing itself throughout their journey. Like those said above, when its down to just surviving, humans are willing to go as low as they have to, the goodness is only with you when you still breathe. At the moment, everyone is by himself, whether or not he is seen as good or bad matters fuck all.
It's called moral choices and they're right or wrong depending on the person.
Put yourself in Joel's shoes. Say your whole family is going to be sacrificed to find a cure for the virus. Would you just be okay with that?
>>334929696
This conversation is fucking retarded.
He had to survive like anyone in any video game.
>>334931549
>Ellie
>"pure"
She's literally a 14 year old who has no problems killing a human being, well, she was uncomfortable at first when she killed her first guy, after that she literally shanks everyone left and right, she is far from pure.
>>334933484
No, thats why its a sacrifice because its not easy, its not clear if it will even make any difference but its the only hope you have, when dakota meyers went into a firezone when his men were ambushed and air support was denied he didnt think he would live or even if he would save anyone but he knew he had to try, because it was all he could do. In 1991 when the Iraqis rebelled against saddam it didnt work, they had no weapons that could go against gunships and tanks, but they did it anyway and chose to make a stand against a tyrant even when all hope was gone. A sacrifice isnt a sacrifice unless its hard
>mfw people seriously think the Fireflies would be able to create a vaccine after hacking up a child, let alone be able to have the means to mass-produce and distribute said vaccine when Marlene admits the Fireflies are done for
>>334940049
>>334939639
ellie is corrupted from being around joel. both characters gain and lose.
joel gains hope again, but also gains with that fear and vulnerability.
ellie gains a father figure (i think? cant remember her arc) but also gets her hands bloodied
>>334940659
Except Ellie shanked the soldier of her own volition. Tess and Joel were surrendering to the soldiers, Ellie killed the guard for her own reasons.
>>334940319
this ties into the story themes of everyone doing any crazy shit just to hold onto whatever they have left. because this >>334939761
the fireflies are willing to kill children just to preserve the hope, their fantasy that things can get better
>>334929696
nah he's a generic american hero
everyone he kills is the bad guy
>>334940848
but didnt that situation happen because of joel and tess? i cant actually remember, perhaps im wrong
>>334931737
Pretty sure the audio logs you find mention that Ellie is not the first immune person they dissected and they still haven't gotten anywhere. Ellie would have been one more meaningless death on a lost cause. The Fireflies had their heads so far up their asses with how righteous they thought they were that they were blind to the fact that their approach wasn't working. Their desperation convinced them that they were right regardless of the evidence to the contrary.
>>334931896
>i don't think it had as much to do with the daughter thing as people think.
It was pretty obviously a large portion of it. The game pretty much rubbed it in your face that Joel saw Ellie as his new daughter.
>>334931762
Why do people still bitch about the characters for the whole cure thing? It's obvious that the writers got their science wrong but in the context of the story their pursuit was viable. If it wasn't then the whole moral dilemma would be moot which is clearly not the intention especially if you consider the creators words about the plot and ending
I hate that the Fireflies were conveniently caricatured into cartoony bad guys just at the end for you to hate them.
>if he moves, kill him! I'm so evil!
>that asshole soldier that talk pushes him in the back and talks down to him
They were actually correct but the writers needed bad guys.
>>334940961
It was literally the first day Joel and Ellie met
They were leaving the exclusion zone or whatever and got caught by soldiers
Tess and Joel said fuck it and go down on their knees and got scanned
When Ellie got scanned she turned around and shanked the soldier
>>334940848
>>334940961
>>334941341
>for her own reasons
she had to, they would have shot her instantly seeing the positive results
>>334929696
Joel was a sad old man just trying to hold onto the last shreds of happiness in his life. He's selfish and does what he can to get by.
>>334940659
>ellie is corrupted from being around joel
Did you even play TLOU?
She was literally begging Joel for a chance to kill someone with something.
>>334940961
Joel and Tess got caught by a soldier then Ellie stabbed the soldier from behind.
>>334940875 Been a while since I played it, but didn't she intentionally stab him in the foot to try and non-lethally incapacitate him? Then Joel just shoots him in the head or something
>>334941336
Almost every single group acted like this though. At least they weren't trying to rape you and Ellie like every other bad group you came across
>>334941095
The doctor says in the audio log that Ellie's infection is the breakthrough that they needed.
That's why Marlene is so torn up. They present the clues and argument so that people would debate and argue about whether what Joel did was wrong or not. But in the end it doesn't matter because what he did is in line with his character who's always been big about survival and protecting his loved ones.
>The Fireflies had their heads so far up their asses with how righteous
This is everyone though. Almost every group you interact with is super selfish and is a major reason why the country is in the state it's in.
>>334932145
>>334932302
>>334934305
No. Ellie is the only truly immune person we know of as said in game.
>The girl's infection is like nothing I've ever seen
>The cause of her immunity is uncertain
These lines indicate that Ellie is indeed immune to the infection.
However,
>as we've seen in all past cases
most likely refers to other patients treated in the hospital. There's no direct connection between (Ellie's) 'immunity' and 'past cases', said cases were only mentioned to report the spread of infection in regular humans and not to indicate they shared her gift. It's even mentioned that all the other cases were affected by fungal-growth in the limbic regions, causing aggression in patients, which Ellie doesn't exhibit.
Ellie was the only known immune person, anything else is just misinformation, most likely as a result of watching the game on YT, not paying attention or spreading false info.
>>334934305
should really listen to it before you linked it m8
