This is easily one of the most deep games out there. Easily deeper than DMC 4, which is considered a staple in it's genre. Not only can you aim in 360 degrees, basically allowing 360 attacks at any given time (not even counting fractions of degrees) but you can also go in slow motion, doubling this number to 720.
Couple that with boosting off of cover, and melee kills that allow you to shoot, and this number goes up to 1440 attacks. Compare this to DMC 4, which has about 100 for Dante.
Now, don't get me wrong, I love DMC 4, but it just doesn't have the same level of depth that Vanquish has, and we should honestly stop pretending like it's the king of depth.
>>334785819
>depth
there's that word which you dont know
>>334785819
wut
math doesn't work like that
There was nothing deep about vanquish, game looks fun because of the GO FAST gimmic, but outside of that it was a shitty TPS. If you played on the higher difficulties you're literally stuck behind cover 70% of the time.
>>334785964
How? Wouldn't a game that has more attacks naturally give you more tools to use at any given time? Wouldn't that lead to more tactical decisions being made at any given time?
>>334786090
>You're stuck behind cover 70% of the time
Sorry, but you were playing it wrong dude.
>>334785991
How?
>>334785819
at what point in the game did you simultaneously fire bullets in a sphere around you? I'm pretty sure Dante has some AoE skills, and do we count degrees of motion in his sweeping attacks as separate "attacks" along the whole track of movement? This would help close the gap, considering Vanquishguy didn't have sweeping melee and just bopped people
>>334786092
thats not true at all
bayonetta a lot of fucking moves but it doesnt matter since you can dodge with witch time and mash buttons
>>334786161
You obviously never unlocked anything beyond the first difficulty.
>Not only can you aim in 360 degrees, but you can also go in slow motion, doubling this number to 720.
>>334786264
A 360 degree attack is just one attack. And vanquish would still have more attacks since you can aim up and down. You can't do that with DMC 4.
>>334786340
The problem with Bayonetta is that it locks you into a bunch of pre-set moves. Yah, you have a lot of attacks, but you really only have a handful available to you at any given point. Vanquish lets you use all of your moves at any given moment, and most of them are viable. The same applies to DMC 4, but there are just more moves available in vanquish.
>>334786092
>more attacks
rotating the camera does not make for 360 kinds of attack especially when 359 of them will be shooting into nothing
Depth comes from variety of actions available to player at any moment of time. The more variety and options -- the bigger, wider and deeper is tree of possibilities.
When you face three robots you don't have 360 or whatever options, you have four options (for your currently equipped gun): shoot robot 1, robot 2, 3 or not to shoot at all.
Then there are other weapons (switching and grenades) + movement.
>>334786519
Beat it on hard. still working on god hard. Do you even boost dodge?
>>334785819
Dash cancel and hope not get hit - The game
I can't understand why people like this game that much. There is no learning curve. The single playetr is a joke. You don't need to use any of the advanced mechanics except on the last bosses and the 6 extra missions are a joke. Especially the last which is completly luck based if you aren't an autist.
>>334786683
Show me your no death God Hard run or any of your completion of Challenges.
If you can't prove your assertions with evidence, don't make them.
>>334786592
> Bayonetta is that it locks you into a bunch of pre-set moves
so does any game with attack strings, including DMC.
> Vanquish lets you use all of your moves at any given moment
that's because there are ultimately only one move -- shoot. Okay there are also two more actions: throwing grenade and melee.
There -- whopping three actions.
You are trying to formulate some thoughts and your heart is in the right place but your logic is all kinds of fucked.
>>334786649
>rotating the camera does not make for 360 kinds of attack especially when 359 of them will be shooting into nothing
The same can be said about the attacks in DMC 4. Most of them will be completely ineffective at any given moment.
>Depth comes from variety of actions available to player at any moment of time. The more variety and options -- the bigger, wider and deeper is tree of possibilities.
And Vanquish has more than any game out there.
>When you face three robots you don't have 360 or whatever options, you have four options (for your currently equipped gun): shoot robot 1, robot 2, 3 or not to shoot at all.
See my first point.
>>334786592
But you can't jump and perform aerials in Vanquish. Once Dante's in the air, he's got a half-sphere of directions he can go with his next attack. And he multiplies those 180 degrees by the amount of moves he has from there, unlike Vanquishguy's shoot gun ability
>>334786957
>so does any game with attack strings, including DMC.
Lol. what? The entire point of DMC 4 is that you make your own combos. Unless you count Y, Y, Y. That's not a real combo in that game though, is it? Like wise, saying:
>There -- whopping three actions.
Is disingenuous in the same way. There are way more options available to you in that moment, it just seems simple on the surface.
>>334787047
wut are you talking about?
please, please, think about what you are saying and reread what i said
> muh gorillion degrees!
analog directions are mostly completely separate from moves.
There is a reason why lock-on was invented -- to eliminate that factor.
360 of whatever camera doesn't multiply number of moves.
You are coming from completely wrong side of things.
Ultimately all options can be quantified to button presses and stick movements registered in each individual frame.
For game logic-wise it doesn't matter if you shot in that angle or this angle only thing it cares if you hit object 1 or object 2.
You are counting completely different things than you should.
>>334787273
>combos
Even ATTACK STRINGS that are just two presses deep are still attack strings (or "combos" for you). If you want to repeat first move in attack string you have to cancel it somehow (you do yamato's first slash, but don't want to follow with yamato's second slash because it has knockback so you cancel it and then do first slash again).
Same can be said for any other game with longer attack string like Ninja Gaiden or Bayonetta.
>>334786092
>Wouldn't a game that has more attacks naturally give you more tools to use at any given time?
Yes
>Wouldn't that lead to more tactical decisions being made at any given time?
No
A game can have a lot of moves but it only has meaningful depth if the games are designed around those moves and encourage the player to take full advantage of everything they have at their disposal. If you achieve the same thing whether you're button mashing or carefully stringing together combos, the game's not deep it's just varied. Metal Gear Rising is a great example of a game with no fucking depth but plenty of moves.
>>334785819
>ot only can you aim in 360 degrees, basically allowing 360 attacks at any given time (not even counting fractions of degrees) but you can also go in slow motion, doubling this number to 720.
>>334786543
>>334788130
The key word is attacks.
One attack per degree = 360 attacks
One attack per .5 degree = 720 attacka
>>334788012
actually MGR has an extremely shallow arsenal of moves
Sai has what? -- two fucking types of attack?
>>334788252
This kind of logic is really fucking with my brain.
Never knew any kind of 3d shooter had so many moves to master!
>>334788252
>half-a-degree
>>334787778
I honestly don't mean disrespect.
>analog directions are mostly completely separate from moves.
Sure, but not in shooters, because you can put a bullet in just about any point in the level.
>There is a reason why lock-on was invented -- to eliminate that factor.
And it lacks the depth of vanquish as a result
>360 of whatever camera doesn't multiply number of moves.
Sure, it implies multiple attacks
>For game logic-wise it doesn't matter if you shot in that angle or this angle only thing it cares if you hit object 1 or object 2.
Not true. Limb damage is a very real thing in vanquish, and you're considering thousands of attack directions at any given time. Lock on actually reduces this down to one direction.
>Same can be said for any other game with longer attack string like Ninja Gaiden or Bayonetta.
The problem is that Bayonetta FORCES you to see these attack strings though to the end, because your damage output is shit otherwise. It's incredibly limiting. I haven't played Ninja Gaiden, so i can't comment on that.
>depth is only through the number of attacks you can do
For a guy talking about depth, your standards sure are shallow.
>>334785819
Gears of War >DMC 4 > Vanquish
>Tiny power bar
>Melee drains it entirely
Ruined the game
>>334788984
It's only depth when you genuinely have to consider which choice is the best in any given situation. There is absolutely no reason to shoot at empty spaces so you are not considering that as an option. Since limb-based damage is real that means your choices are limited to the amount of limbs each given enemy has. Also if you're going to consider shooting at empty spaces depth then you might as well count swinging your weapons at air depth in Bayo or DMC.
Vanquish on hard was like, perfect difficulty.
Except that one fight against 2 robodog axe tail guys outside of some huge doors.
That fight was horseshit.
>>334788252
>>334788984
But then the different options would be which body part you want to shoot, not every single degree.
>>334785819
Vanquish is the best TPS out there but your reasoning is all flawed.
It certainly has a lot of depth but it doesn't reach DMC/NG levels of mechanics.
>>334789647
>Vanquish is the best TPS out there but your reasoning is all flawed.
/thread
>>334789647
>a Japanese company published the two greatest TPS games
Is the West even trying?
>>334789821
>Binary Domain
My nigga, the gameplay didn't had the depth of vanquish but those characters were prettySWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET
>>334789821
It is weird isn't? Gameplay wise Vanquish and BD (in that order) are solid to say the least yet they were completely ignored in the west.
>>334790158
Sega and marketing sadly, also the retards who played Vanquish like any other cover-based shooter and assumed it was just a generic TPS because of it.
Vanquish sucks multiple dicks. Repetitive boring ass game.
>>334790375
Cool opinion
>>334790375
>repetitive
All the best games are "repetitive"
>>334790375
You can try it on Casual Auto if Normal is too tough for you.
>>334790039
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m7QjqemJRc
>Deeper than DMC4
It's not that deep man. Not compared to its contemporaries at least.
>>334789821
What are the good western TPS games?
Dead Space?
Gears of War?
>>334788252
I understand what you're saying but that's not how shit works.
If you apply this logic to CoD then it's an even deeper game because 360 ways to shoot x 1million guns + knife + grenades + this is fucking autistic
>>334790484
What do we mean by "repetitive" here?
>>334790974
Focusing on doing one thing exceptionally well rather than being a theme park ride.
>>334791049
So what of something like BattleToads where each level is often a different genre than the last...?
>>334791190
>Battletoads
>best game
It's THE meme game. The beat em up mechanics suck ass, the platforming is awkward and all it has going for it is some entertaining level design every once in a while, visuals and difficulty.
Bet none of you niggas could even get to the final stage on the last challenge mission, let alone kick their asses
>>334789647
Ninja Gaiden doesn't have depth to it dude. It's all about efficiency which is pretty barebones.
>>334786784
I can't prove shit on an anonymous forum. I have these badges, either you believe it is real or not (there are no achievements for god hard).
However I don't think your opinion only matters if you played through the game on the bullshit difficulty 99% of players never ever try. Like when people say play Bayonetta on infinite climax because muh difficulty. I don't think taking out essential things for the game for the sake of "b-but its h-hard!" is a good way to increase the diffculty.
So ... how are you actually supposed to play it?
>>334791352
I don't mean JUST BattleToads, it's just a good example of the sort of thing I'm talking about.
It's not the only game to frequently change things up quite a bit from level to level, just the one to do it to the greatest extent I can think of.
>>334791976
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je1J4TxldPY
What part of this is RNG though?
>>334790820
Yes to both. /v/ generally likes Dead Space 1 and 2. I also think Gears is underappreciated on here desu. Extremely solid games.
PC port when?
>>334792249
Alright then.
I forgot about Max Payne, also.
Anything else?
>>334792000
I mean, they can be alright but they typically lack the depth, tight design and polish that games which dedicate themselves to just one style do. The whole "repetitive" criticism is pretty bullshit. People often apply it to games they do not understand like beat em ups where there's a lot of strategy and thought involved from the machanics and enemy design that's overlooked in favor of a shallow "but you're just doing the same thing!" look.
>>334789821
So besides BD and Vanquish, what are some other good Japanese TPS games?
This could possibly be the most retarded thing I have ever seen on /v/. What the fuck is wrong with the people responding to this shit?
The level variety was complete shit. They must've been on a tight budget or something. Great bosses, though, I wish there was more than 5 of them.
>>334792389
never ever etc etc
>>334792714
Resident Evil 4, Earth Defense Force, Kid Icarus: Uprising, Virtual-On, Gotcha Force, Armored Core and tons of other mech games, stuff like Wild Guns and Sin and Punishment if that counts, etc.
>>334788984
>The problem is that Bayonetta FORCES you to see these attack strings
except Bayonetta is designed with these long attack strings in mind providing with mechanism to see the entirety of six hit string all the while dodging and moving
>>334791976
>I don't think taking out essential things for the game for the sake of "b-but its h-hard!" is a good way to increase the diffculty.
You have a point with Vanquish (i don't think anybody bothered to balance God Hard), but NSIC if anything proves that game was designed to be played without witch time from day 1.
>>334792428
Red Faction: Guerrilla
>>334788984
> Limb damage is a very real thing in vanquish, and you're considering thousands of attack directions at any given time
What a load of crock.
First of all human mind can only juggle 7 thing at any moment of time.
"thousands of direction" -- give me a break
> Limb damage
yeah, like those red weakness points that highlight on bosses. Sure is, thousands of them.
> Lock on actually reduces this down to one direction.
You completely misunderstand what primary function(s) of lock-on is.
Lock-on is used to diminish the inaccuracy of controlling analog stick in a 3d space (among other things). So that player could do attacks and actually hit an enemy even and especially if he is pointing 20 degrees off with a stick or even in completely different direction (like launcher).
Lock-on removes directions that are sure to whiff out of equation and leaves only those that are sure to hit this or that enemy.
In more general terms "lock-on" (which came from jet airplane controls) is any helpful UI element used for easier targeting of enemies and it can be completely decoupled from camera and movement controls.
Even Viewtiful Joe despite being 2d game has lock-on ("rock-on") in form of circles which show-up on enemies and background boxes during slow power-up.
These weakness points on bosses are literally the same thing.
And these weakness points don't apply for majority regular sized enemies because headshotting them is ALWAYS the best option.
>>334792193
So I can't have an opinion about super mario because I can't finish it in 5 minutes like most world recorders?
Yes there are always people who can do it perfectly on hard, but look up non autist videos, every player relies on boost dodge and hoping for not get one hit killed randomly.
>>334790820
Advent Rising
>>334785819
>dash cancel
>
>
>
>
>
Nice depth.
