Sm4sh 1.1.5 thread
- Home
- Board: /v/ - Video Games
- Reading: Sm4sh 1.1.5 thread
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-5-patch-notes.433162/
So who are you guys maining and your thoughts on the patch so far?
I cumed for every patch with a Mewtwo buff so I loved this one.
Ness been my main since N64. I still want N64 speed dair.
what does KGB mean?
They're still doing balance patches? I thought Hackurai was done with this game.
>>331774820
Knock Back Growth
An increase means a character gets launched farther as their percent goes up and a decrease, the opposite.
>>331774245
The zard
But so bad that people already have gone back to playing passive-aggresive in the gloryhole after the buffs. I'm so fucking tired on being the only one going aggro in all my matches
ITS NOT FAIR
>>331774245
>Nothing for Wario
>Again
>WiifitTrainer
>No changes
t-thanks
>>331774245
Fucking tits
How many games besides this and Blizzard shit do the devs spend so much time tweaking every little thing?
>>331774842
Done with DLC
Kuraudo has changed much. Have to work slightly harder now but still pretty good
>>331775187
>Nothing for Megaman
>again
>>331775575
You mean hide in the corner for half a second longer
>>331774245
Maining Bayo still, despite nerfs. The nerfts only made scrubs drop her, despite being a really good character still.
I feel good slapping shitters around with Corrin even after this patch. He's too fun to let a handful of nerfs make me quit him.
>>331774245
Charizard
The buffs and nerfs to Sheik and ZSS have made him borderline viable. He just needs Fly to link better and walk speed acceleration to not be complete ass.
Main Wario and Bowser.
Love that Bowser has been getting a fair amount of love in Sm4sh.
Wario is already perfect I guess so I'm not really bothered about the lack of buffs or anything.
I do wish he had his original shoulder machine gun charge though.
His current fSmash is shit.
I think they literally forgot Jiggs was in the game
Who /foreverftier/ here?
>>331774245
>no changes
>Ganondorf's Flame Choke got a bigger grab box both ground and air
Are you fucking kidding me
>>331774461
I don't main him, but I want it too. Would maybe be overpowered, though.
>>331776047
It'd be nice if you could drift to the sides during fly so you fucking snap to the edge properly and dont get fucked so hard for ever trying going offstage
>>331775894
her hair looks like a plastic bag
>>331776117
No amout of changes, buffs or nerfs, are going to change my mains.
>>331775834
Eh, that's how most Clouds play. I hate running away to charge his limit, I just let it charge by itself and occasionally do it manually if my opponent is too high in the air or try to zone. Komorikiri(?) does this and he's the best Cloud out there
>Samus
>Pacman's Down and Forward Smash got buffed in damage
>Second hit of Up Smash got nerved Slighty
>>331776283
>5.2 to 7.2
I smell stock advantage suicides in every match
>>331776319
Fly just flat out doesn't allow you to snap to the ledge during certain parts of it's animation. Drifting wouldn't change that.
>All those slight Samus buffs
>No more whiffs
Keep it coming
Alright, any changes after the patch?
>>331776740
>Grab finally got the Link/Lucas treatment
Thanks Samurai
Did they fix Samus?
>>331776396
>Yoshi/Mario/Luigi players who are literally mashing Nair every single time they get hit
That's what happens when a move has like -2 startup frames though I guess.
>>331776396
>ROB
literally get the fuck in, dont ever try to challenge him in a contest of spamming projectiles or ultrasafe spaced pokes, because you'll be bested at that and you will fucking lose like the little bitch you are.
Against rob either you play the man mode or get molested by lasers until 150, so again, GET THE FUCK IN YOU FAGGOT
t. Rob main
>>331776872
Still not great, but they fixed her totally fucked hitboxes and gave her some damage/kill buffs.
>>331776740
I think people don't understand just how much buffing her Ftilt means to her. HAving a decent button to poke with at mid range is enormous when you have strong projectiles and a tether grab to work with.
Still gonna main Bayonetta despite the nerfs. Just have to be wary of recovering correctly after using Dair offstage. I don't really understand the Witch Time nerf other than you guess less time now
>>331776848
I thought Dabuz dropped Olimar
>>331776848
Why is Charizard Trela but BJ isn't Tweek? Trela hasn't gone Charizard for ages and Tweek only dropped BJ a short while ago.
>Sheik is even lighter
SAKURAAAAAAAAAI!
>>331776597
It would let you stay closer to the ledge and snap to it in those cases it flies to the opposite fucking direction EVEN IF YOU DIDNT INPUT IT THAT WAY, so those cases you get pushed under the stage and can only fly back up you can still recover and not simple keep going away from the ledge.
Regaining control earlier after a whiffed air flare blitz would be nice as well
>>331777057
Just filled in with names from the first version when nobody came up with a rep, BJ got greyed out because Tweek dropping him him was mentioned several timesand because Bowser was greyed out in the original versions before the shellshock
I might put Charizard in the grey zone this time if nobody is suggested to replace Trela.
>>331776848
I think Mr. R is a better Sheik than Zero
I totally forgot smash was even a thing, I've been playing Pokken since it came out.
Can't read balance patches very well, but it looks like Kirby got a buff? What about Cloud and Samus?
>>331775005
>NOTHING FOR DEDEDE
>NOTHING FOR BOWSER JR.
>NOTHING FOR DR MARIO
>NOTHING FOR WARIO
IT'S
NOT
FAIR
>>331774427
i'm with you brother
>>331776095
Actually his punch does a better job than his shoulder bash
>>331777482
Charizard has not had a dedicated tournament going main since before last EVO. Even Bloodcross dropped him before EVO and only pulled him out when fucking around in friendlies.
>>331777587
Kirby got slight buffs to his Smash attacks
Cloud got the charge time for his limit increased by about half a second and some nerfs to his knockback on Finishing Touch and a couple of his Smashes
Samus got an absolute fuckton of very small buffs that add up to make her okayish now
>>331777608
>>331775187
>Wectoring will never return
FUCK YOU SAKURAI YOU SHIT WE NEVER EVEN GOT TO DO IT IN HD
I don't follow meta much. What do the top tier nerfs mean for muh boy? I heard he was already pretty good after his last set of buffs.
>>331777482
Oh and since Abadango dropped MK with the speed of a veteran bandwagonner I'll probably replace him with Tyrant.
>>331777548
Definetely the most loyal at least, but nothing can be done until Zero jumps into the Rosa/Bayo bandwagon
>>331777681
Into the shadow realm he goes then, maybe the buffs will bring forth someone to free him.
I might drop Pit for Cloud. I enjoy playing him a lot more, even though his recovery is 100x worse. Will probably keep Pit for matchups I have trouble with as Cloud.
>mfw back throw
Seeing shit like gannondorf players cry always make my day.
>>331776848
>Mew2king
>better Cloud than Komorikiri
Funny
>>331777983
Ikr, even m2k thinks Komorikiri is a better Cloud
>>331777983
>>331778210
Alrighty then
RIP Lizardon
>>331774842
>>331775459
I believe he said he was done patching too. But there's another team that does balance patches, and fortunately they're still on the job.
Linkfag here
Happy about the dash attack buff
Although I'm mostly excited about all the Samus buffs since she's my secondary
>>331776396
>Peach
She actually got a huge nerf. You can't hit with the first hit of up air anymore. That was a big combo move for her.
>nerfed meta knight u-air shenanigans
>no other buffs in return
>still no hitboxes changes
>>331779098
Your a hack if you aren't finishing your opponents and just juggling with Up air
>>331778996
I know that, but I was never able to do the infinites. Even if I were able, I'm fine with it, and I will still like her forever.
Maining Corrin and Ryu still
Can we all agree that Sheik is a pretty honest character now? That set two days ago between VoiD and Tyrant was fucking incredible
Mr. R and VoiD are seriously fun players to watch
>>331779098
Actually I take back that second bit, the f-air frame buff was good.
>>331779098
>nerfed meta knight u-air shenanigans
It does hurt, but it's still possible to do it - just a lot riskier since you have to be perfect AND use all your jumps to perform it.
>no other buffs in return
You are literally retarded for not reading the patch notes in the fucking OP.
>>>Fair Landing Lag: 20F -> 16F
It actually opens up several more consistent combos, and even more damage percentage ones.
>No hitbox changes
He already got several in numerous patches, each one increasing the hitbox range.
Metaknights an A-Tier character, and this patch did nothing to change that. In fact, it might even make him move up, since he's so good against Rosalina and not nearly as bad against Cloud and Bayo as he was against Sheik and ZSS.
>no puff buffs
You know who to thank.
>>331779348
I'm honestly enjoying Sheik play now, fucking air needles into bouncing fish kills look great.
>>331779670
Stupid Hbox and his pride.
>that fucking wall of Samus and ZSS changes
Jesus
Is Samus actually playable now, or is she still garbage?
>>331774245
Am I the only one who see's a futa mewtwo cock upper shaft in that image?
>>331776848
ally just said he's dropping smash until bayo is banned or something similarly salty, so I'd put anti up for mario instead.
one of his better matches here starts at about 10:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVxgOl3bPmw
>>331776573
>Second hit of Up Smash got nerved Slightly
>Usmash Second Hit Early/Late KBG: 95/90 -> 97/92
i dont think you can read
What makes Cloud the best? Were other top tiers nerfed that bad?
>>331779810
ally is such a weird dude
he's super nice in person but he's the most massive salty crybaby shitstirring faggot on social media
>>331779810
>>331779957
God dammit Ally, and right after you beat Mr. R's Sheik
>>331776848
Tweak plays Bowser Jr
And he's fucking good at it too.
I love watching someone play a character I never touch and show off how to do some fun shit.
>>331780253
Dropped him for witch tits.
>>331777768
You literally couldn't kill Wario though unless you killed him faster than he could Wector.
>>331780387
what? thought he played cloud
>>331780435
Wario could only Wector once he was out of hitstun and can't Wector out of spikes. Considering Wario's already great recovery with bike, it didn't really help him recover utside of being unpredictable.
>>331779806
She's not absolute garbage but she still isn't viable.
>>331780591
>Can't wector out of spikes
I know it's fair but imagine if he could reverse spike wector.
>>331780387
He dropped him for Cloud
>>331779950
Fast, safe aerials, and limit breaks
>>331774245
>maining
In a party game? No one.
I'm picking random 99% of the time like everyone should.
>>331780115
I thought Pink Fresh was the Bayo main?
>>331780859
he is as well, but salem has more notable wins despite mvd going full retard and doing the taunt to get-bodied combo vs PF a week or two ago
>>331780115
There's a guy who goes as Bill Trinen?
>>331774245
M I D T I E R
I
D
T
I
E
R
>>331778539
>unfortunately
shiek main detected
these patches have been amazing for the games longevity. although clearly they seem forget that Puff and DDD exist. not that i care about those two characters. but the high tiers are now closer to the middle and so are the low tiers, making the game overall a better game.
>marth
I mean, I think I'm fine. 1.1.4 was a good motivator. He doesn't have too many bad matchups anymore so I'll have fun with him and ROB as long as they don't fuck em up anymore.
>>331779950
The other top tier nerfs ranged from bad to fucking devastating.
Sheik:
>Needles lost a lot of range
Her neutral hurts bad because of this
>Lost her kill and combo options out of throws
This was her only decent kill option.
>Weight lowered
Dies 5-8% lower now
>Fair Z-Hitbox reduced
Not as safe on trades now.
Her kill options are pretty much gone now, and she loses neutral to characters like Pikachu, Cloud, and even Diddy when she didn't before. Sheik got FUCKED.
ZSS
>U-Air damage decreased and knockback increased
It doesn't combo as much now.
>Nair got worse in every way
Neutral is slightly worse, combo game got slightly worse.
>Throws got worse
Lost a few combos and one or two kill options.
>Grab lasts just as long but active frames are shorter
It's less safe now.
ZSS's grab game is pretty much gone now, and she's not a combo machine anymore. She lost a good kill option, but she at least has a few others. A bad patch for her, but she's still useable.
Bayonetta
>Witch-Time Reduced
This hurts her, but it's still a great move.
>Smashes reduced knockback
KO's require 1-3% more now.
Not much happened honestly, but Witch Time taking two hits isn't great. Not being able to spam it doesn't actually change much, but it lasts for a fair bit shorter now, so combos previously involving Witch Time got a lot shorter. Still really, really fucking good though.
Cloud
>Smashes/Cross-Slash/Finishing Touch (Air) Knockback reduced.
He requires 1% more to kill with his kill moves, and 5-10% more to kill with an aerial finishing touch. Literally nobody will notice.
>Charge Time increased.
Clouds are already pretty campy and win the neutral pretty easily so they wont notice having to spend an extra half a second charging against anyone except Pikachu.
He's pretty much unchanged. The only problem he may face is trying to charge up for Climhazzard while recovering - an extra half a second is a fair distance to fall. He'll make it back, but he's more predictable now.
>>331777587
you better not be a fucking chandelure main
>>331780830
Range, dont forged the stupid range he has
>>331777587
kirby got ANOTHER smash buff (plz Sakurai, aerial speed next time)
Cloud kills 2% later and takes longer to charge (no real difference)
Samus got too many buffs to list, but most importantly is her f-tilt isn't useless, her dash attack combos, and her fair combos. She's still only low-tier, maybe low mid at best
>>331781410
>1.1.4 Marth fair range buff
>1.1.5 Sheik fair range nerf
Jesus Christ, they took that one webm pretty seriously.
>>331779950
>blah blah blah cloud blah blah blah best
Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of pic related being the best character in the game now.
>>331781770
what one webm? is it on youtube?
>>331781475
>Tfw your main has the most trouble with Sheik and ZSS
>But gets free as fuck gimps on Cloud
Haven't really fought enough Bayonettas to have an opinion the MU
>>331779950
He's not the best, he's just really good
>>331781842
webm related.
And this is after 1.1.4meaning BEFORE the Sheik range nerf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXO9D8OqgW8&spfreload=10
>Fire emblem crew got buffs up the ass throughout patches
>shulk: no changes
I haven't played smash 4 in a few months, like around when roy came out.
Is C Falcon still any good?
I also played fox, he was a lot of fun even though he wasn't a top tier character.
>>331781814
>no kill confirms
>struggles with range
Cloud beats Pikachu any day.
And this is #1 in the current patch
>>331782056
who the fuck's your main that gets free gimps on cloud?
>>331781096
No. The actual Bill Trinen. No joke.
>>331782559
Fox is a better character than c falcon, arguably a top 10 now
C falcon is never viable in any game, when will CF mains learn?
>>331782579
Maybe Pit?
>>331782570
>no kill confirms
U-Throw to Thunder is a 50/50, other than that Pikachu is mainly meant to gimp people - and he's the best fucking gimper in the game.
>Pikachu struggles with range when he has quick attack
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Pikachu also has a favourable matchup against Rosa, Bayo, and Cloud - the other 3 highest top tiers.
>>331782701
In what way is Captain Falcon not a viable character.
>>331781814
Get outta here ESAM.
Pikachu still can't beat Cloud, Bayo, ZSS or Rosa.
>>331782693
I don't believe you
>>331782704
Cloud fucks Pit. Hard. Without any lube.
Pit gets gimps if Cloud ever goes offstage, but there's no reason a Cloud should even be offstage against a Pit - it's not like Pit could actually get him off.
The only ones I can think of that get free cloud gimps are Pikachu, Metaknight, and Villager.
>>331782570
>struggles with range
What are Spark and Quick Attack?
Pikachu literally has the easiest time gimping Cloud. You're just bad.
>>331782923
Pikachu literally has a good matchup against all of those.
Fuck, he's had a good matchup against ZSS and Rosa since day one.
>>331782579
Charizard
Ftilt angled down outranges upB and with it's 3 active frames it's easy to hit his predictable up B patterns with it. Flamethrower fucks his recovery from a safe distance and can force him into a position where hitting the snap with Ftilt is even easier.
>>331782779
>U-Throw to Thunder is a 50/50
NO. This only works if your opponent is mentally retarded AND has played less than 10 pikachus
EVERYBODY knows this combo, everybody knows what does a Uthrow mean at 70 ~95%, and everybody knows this shit is as easy to avoid as holding the joystick to the left. Which means you will never fucking get a kill with that unless the opponent isnt holding the controller
>>331783134
>Charizard
I knew he got nice buffs, but I had no idea it was that nice.
>>331782923
>can't beat Cloud
press b
>can't beat Bayo
try shielding and grabbing
>ZSS
literally dominates her in pretty much every aspect
>Rosa
only character you could even make your claim for
>>331782848
Camped easily
Poor approach options
Very easily recovery to intercept
Combo food
>>331783254
>>331783027
I've never seen ESAM beat those characters in tournament
>>331783254
I love you, ESAM.
>>331779950
Biggest all around disjoints, Nair and Bair come out fast, Uair and Dair are also fast and last very long, and Fair is very strong (and safe on shield if it's spaced right). Add that to good tilts, smash attacks, and Limits and you have a very good character.
He probably still loses to Pikachu, but he's hardly as bad a matchup as Sheik used to be.
>>331783238
Did you even read the explanation? Charizard fucks and has fucked Cloud's recovery since Cloud launched. Now he does it while holding his own in neutral with safe on block massive disjoints.
>>331782925
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2kb3sPRAdE
Also plays Yoshi and used to main Rosalina before everyone jumped on the bandwagon (literally before the game released)
>>331783216
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZEiojYuff4
You read it, it's a kill confirm.
Really fucking easy.
>>331783297
>camped easily
play on platforms
>poor approach options
literally has the best grab in the game
>very easy recovery to intercept
there is truth to this but nowhere near as bad you make it seem
>combo food
learn how to DI
>>331775187
>Nothing for Jigglypuff
>Ever
Can someone explain what exactly has been done to the first hit of Samus' f-air? What is the "angle" and is changing that value from 295 to 60 a drastic change in how it works and connects?
>>331783652
>Something for Dedede
>It's nerfs
>>331783681
Did you not learn about angles? This is some basic math anon
>>331783345
>>331783346
Every top Cloud and Bayo already say that a Pikachu matchup isn't in their favour.
Pikachu has literally had an advantage against ZSS since day one, since half of her moves can't hit him while he's crouching or even just dashing.
The entire Rosa community have already agreed that Pikachu is a slightly disadvantaged matchup for Rosalina. Not as bad as Sheik or Metaknight were previously, but still not good.
Pikachu has three bad matchups.
>Mario
Hard Counter Pick.
>Ness
Counter Pick.
>G&W
Soft Counter Pick.
Both ZeRo and, oddly enough, Mr. R have also said this (before the patch of course, but nothing bad happened to Pika during the patch)
>>331783542
>best grab in the game
>lol just DI
>>331783681
Literally the angle in degrees. Initially the first hitbox was at 295 degrees, so a little bit behind her head. Now it is at 60 degrees, so it's a little bit in front of her head. It connects better because it comes out in front earlier.
Characters with multiple jumps can go fuck themselves.
And Yoshi.
>>331783901
Nice arguments there, Wi-Fi Warrior.
Forever mid tier.
>>331783919
>Jigglypuff
>hating on worse character in the game
>Yoshi
>Loses 90% of his recovery once he uses his jump
>becomes more gimpable than little mac
git gud
>>331774245
>DDD wasn't changed because he's already perfect
>>331783919
>Kirbies who just air dodges jump dance around you and wait for you to do something and use an aerial and if you don't they just go for grab
LEMME JUST HIT YOU, YOU FUCKING PINK COTTON BALL
>flick stick to do a smash
>jab instead
FUCK YOU LEARN TO CODE HACKURAI
>>331780657
Look at this punk ass bitch who can't win with samus.
>>331784234
I still prefer that over jiggs that just do Fair fakeouts the whole fucking game
>>331784363
you should be using c-stick for tilts anyway.
>>331783542
You can still be camped on platforms
Bowser has the best grab in the game
You can't use di as an excuse, any character can utilize di, it won't get you out of every situation
>>331784031
I don't need arguments for retarded claims, falcon MAY have the best dash grab in the game but that doesn't mean much when he doesn't get shit from it, maybe a couple of uairs at low % but aside from that no more. Also you can't DI from guaranteed combos, which most of the top tiers (and Falcon's harder mu's) have on heavy to medium weight characters.
The best grab might be ZSS, btw
>>331784234
Kirby has the second worst aerial momentum and aerial speed in the game. He is one of the easiest characters to catch in the air.
Stop hating on him when you're just fucking awful.
>>331784123
>aerial spam
>dodge every attack you throw out and can just jump away from danger
Yeah, no.
Maining villager now. I wish shulk got some tweaks.
>>331784586
>Best Grab is ZSS
>Normal/Dash/Pivot Grab Last Active Frame: 29F -> 25F
Not any more she doesn't.
Worst grab easily goes to Pac-Man though.
>>331784693
he's a floaty, he doesn't get combo'd that well
kirby has problems but his air movement isn't one
>>331780253
>>331780387
>Finally find someone who mains Bowser Jr.
>Dropped him months ago
>For fucking Cloud
The struggle continues
>>331784586
Falcon is trash and anyone who says he is good is a FG Monster.
In live play with platforms and no input delay he loses quite a lot.
>>331785047
I believe there's another guy who mains the character, either at VGBootcamp or MVG League. He doesn't seem to be anything special considering how obscure he is though.He also uses Morton, so yeah...
>>331783345
esam the maximum choker? yeah no surprise
>>331785267i use morton
>>331785047
I forgot bjr was in the game desu
>>331778367
Didn't Anti pick up charizard a little while ago?
>>331784802
>Jigglypuff
She is literally the worst character in the game. She has no good matchup against anybody. None of her aerials actually beat out all of anyone else's, and her pound is readable as fuck. Every single character in the game has both a ground and an aerial move that beats out her Fair.
http://smashboards.com/threads/first-official-4br-smash-for-wii-u-tier-list.429817/
Since then, everyone around her has only gotten better. And she's pretty much ALWAYS at the bottom of the japanese tier list too.
>Yoshi
>Get Super Armor, lose Double Jump
Perfectly fair trade off.
If you're honestly complaining about either of these two, you're a fucking scrub.
>>331779913
>damage got less
>not nerfed
You wut
>>331775769
It hurts, pal. I know
>>331784938
shit forgot about that
Well at least Pac has set ups for his shitty grab
>>331776039
>He
>>331784586
Falcon can combo into many moves out of dthrow around 60-100 percent, as well as into 2-3 uairs at lower percents.
The only combos he cannot DI out of are combos which no character can DI out of. You just need to get better at DI.
ZSS does not have anywhere near the best grab.
I'm not claiming that he's top tier but he is certainly not trash.
>>331785267
>>331785441
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39kUdW-8rks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=211UNeBD50c
>>331785913
>Pac-Man's USmash Damage reduced
The fuck are you talking about?
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-5-patch-notes.433162/
>Bair KBG: 98 -> 100
>Fsmash First Hit/Second Hit KBG: 97/100 -> 99/102
>Usmash Second Hit Early/Late KBG: 95/90 -> 97/92
>Dsmash Early/Late KBG: 84/90 -> 86/92
If you're doing your own testing, make sure you're accounting for stale moves and half percents, because absolutely NO ONE is reporting any sort of nerf at all for Pac-Man.
>>331783429
>Bill had the percent lead the entire game
>>331785913
The damage was not nerfed. The Knockback Growth was buffed.
>>331785913
>pac man
>damage nerfed
>1.1.5 patch
>year 1986+30
>lying on the internet
what the fuck anon
>falco
>no changes
Tourney when
>>331787346
tourney in 10 minutes in the general
>>331781245
He said fortunately
>>331787427
>/vg/
no thanks my man
>>331774245
>Bowser Jr.
>no changes
I can count the number of changes Bowser Jr. has gotten in the course of Smash 4's lifetime on one hand.
I think all those wins I get in For Glory with him makes Sakurai think that the character is fine or some shit.
>>331787542
>not liking /vg/
fair enough
well then, tourneys on /v/ usually only on weekends
>>331787607
Yeah but sometimes when there's a decent sized smash thread someone will make a tourney
>>331778539
he never said he was done patching
literally all they said was that (new) character development was done
>>331787580
>The only people who play zard on 4 glory are single digit aged kids who only know how to side B
Just gonna keep those buffs coming.
>>331787580
I think a better combo game out of mecha koopa Toon Link style would be pretty good, plus a charge and hold neutral B (same for Zelda's Phantom)
>>331780115
Why isn't G&W GimR and Corrin MVD?
>>331779348
She was always the most honest top tier.
Too bad Bayo is gonna ruin the game
>>331787580
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Bowser_Jr._(SSB4)#Update_history
Eh, it's not the BEST, but he's gotten sizeable buffs. Certainly better than someone like D3 getting nerfed, and BJ's a better character to begin with anyways.
>>331787854
>GimR
>Good
And at the time there wasn't a clear leading player for Corrin unlike with Bayo. Dunno about now, who gets the best results?
>>331787580
>tfw so balanced that you only ever got one or two very minor changes and are fine with it
>>331785047
This is what happens when your game is unbalanced
>>331787938
>Bayo's gonna ruin the game
Nah. She's great, but she has too many bad matchups to dominate the game, especially compared to Rosalina, Cloud, and Pikachu.
Pikachu, Cloud, Sonic, Diddy, and Metaknight all have an advantage and will keep her in check. Even Kirby goes 50-50 with her.
>tfw you were top-tier once
>one tool gets nerfed slightly
>everything falls apart
>>331787796
Wouldn't that make their Bs pretty broken? Fully charged Cannon is fast and hits like a truck. And if Zelda had a B Charge she would have a pretty good edgeguard game.
Not saying they can't have this since they need everything that they can get.
>>331788309
He's not that bad. Still completely useable.
He's right up there with Falcon and Yoshi, smack dab between the High Tiers and Mid Tiers.
>>331788309
still high tier
luigi has nothing to whine about
>>331780115
>No tweek as bowser jr
>>331788431
>Fully charged Cannon is fast and hits like a truck
And it takes a whole year to charge it, so if you ever actually get hit with it you should just stop playing.
Seriously, it's like getting hit with Jigglypuff's Rollout, or Ganon's U-Tilt.
What changes need to happen to Palutena to make her not a shit?
>>331788286
Since Sheik is dead how would Bayo perform in the classic theoretical 64 Pikachu vs Melee Fox vs Brawl Meta Knight vs Sm4sh Bayo?
>>331788309
>weegee main
>crying over being sent from top of high-tier to bottom of high-tier
You are the quintessential Luigi main.
Never change anon.
You be you.
>>331787938
>Bayo is gonna ruin the game
You and the fucking babies that want to ban her, have no idea how to fight her. Her frame data is not the best.
Hell, your constant whining got WT nerfed so badly that she can't do anything if she misses the first one.
Bayo has bad MUs it's just that no knows how to fight her completely yet.
>>331775005
>Implying DDD isn't already perfect and an S tier character
>>331788128
Feels gud.
Only actual nerf was stopping allied projectiles from getting that x2 multiplier in doubles, but that was across the board and doesn't kill the usefullness of holding on your teammates projectiles at all.
>>331785735
>Ness
>Anything other than S-tier
people are afraid of technical characters lol
>>331788918
upvoted
>>331788309
>upset at a slight nerf
>Luigi still the best he's ever been
Get out of here nigga. I've been maining Green Mario since 64 and I'm ecstatic at how good he is in this game. Going from top tier to high tier doesn't ruin him.
>>331788567
I know that I used to main Jr. I even reflected a fully charged ball as Ness and it was a OHKO. I'm saying that if Jr.'s B functioned like Samus' B it'd be a whole lot better.
I u
>>331788940
>Ness
>technical
what, his buttons are dumb af, only hard thing about him is maybe recovery
>>331788128
sour fair/bairs should have as much impact as meggs pellets
>>331788940
Ness gets destroyed by anyone faster than him or has better hitboxes.
>>331788940
>Ness
>Good
His mobility, range, and recovery fuck him over.
>>331788697
Awful?
Rosa, Pika, and Cloud are all higher than her.
Rosa's bad matchups include Cloud, Pikachu, Metaknight, and ZSS.
Pika's bad matchups include Mario, G&W, and Ness.
Cloud's bad matchups include Pikachu, Sonic, Mewtwo (strangely enough) and possibly Charizard (now that he has an aerial short hop game).
Bayo's good, definitely top 5 (Sonic or Ryu is the other one), but she's not fairing better than the other three, and certainly far worse than the top character in the other games.
>>331789208
Ness requires the most skill to master his best setups. Only babbies rely on fairs and PK fire
>>331789163
Oh I get it now, my apologies.
That said, you'd basically be giving BJ Samus's B without the Hitstun. This is definitely not broken, and I'd personally like it if they did.
>>331789503
>ness requires most skill
>not pre-nerf sheik
>not pikachu
>not neo-metaknight
>not the god king Ryu
get out
>>331774245
They took Sheik nerfs way too far.
Also Sakurai is a fucking piece of shit for not nerfing Pikachu.
Also, Fuck Rosalina and Luma in general
If I was in charge of patching shit I'd make this game actually good.
SHULK
BUFFS
NEVER
>>331788940
Ness literally has an advantage against Pikachu out of all the A and S-Tiers. That's it. Everyone else wrecks his shit. He's also nearly as gimpable as Little Mac.
Sorry, but Mr. Flowchart isn't anywhere close to the best.
Am I the only one here who dropped Corrin after this patch?Because I feel like an idiot.
>>331789324
>Pikachu losing to G&W
Sorry for being skeptical but you're going to have to explain this one to me
>>331774981
Most charizards I meet just jump in place hoping to land a bair.
Le bait meta meme
>>331789681
No, you'd just make the game Sheik vs. Sheik only, Town & City, 2 stocks only.
Wallow in your salt sheik main.Seriously though, this is the most balanced a Smash game has ever been, with the top 5 characters all having at LEAST 3 bad matchups each. Sheik was a fucking cancer on the game.
>>331789620
Sheik requires no skill. Just spam fairs and bouncing fish and she plays herself for you
Pikachu is a complete lightweight and requires no skill since you just need to fish for grabs. Basically just a shitty Luigi before being nerfed.
Metaknight is just a trap
Ryu is nothing more than a variable character. He'll only be good if people want to spend the time putting in his inputs which are easily destroyed by anyone with priority moves.
Nice try though. Ness still has the best skill ceiling.
>Kirby buffs
I don't play the game anymore, but my boy getting buffed is always good news.
>>331789986
>Sheik fairs and bouncing fish
You've literally never seen ZeRo, Mr. R, or Void play a single tournament match.
>Pikachu's game is all grabs
And you've literally never seen a single Pikachu match either. QAC is the most technical shit in the game.
>Metaknight's a trap
You mean he requires pixel and frame perfect input? Because he requires pixel and frame perfect input.
>Ryu destroyed by priority moves
I fell for the bait. Fuck.
>>331788552
>He doesn't know
>>331789902
G&W does matchup well against pikachu, I wouldn't say he's great, but it's one of G&W's better matchups.
Let me get this straight. So Samus isn't actually shit anymore?
>>331790568
Spamus or ZeroSkillSpamus?
>>331789962
I don't even main Sheik you faggot.
Any kind of casual player who doesn't understand the advanced meta behind the character has absolutely ZERO good kill options. Sheik gets KO'ed super easily now and sure she's fast but can get beaten out or trade with MUCH stronger moves all the time.
Also I'm not the one to really complain about damage nerfs but this is getting ridiculous. 2 hits of forward smash do like 13 damage. That's fucking stupid. Her max damage aerial on clean hit is like backair for like 8 damage. Forward air does like 3 or something. It's fucking pitiful.
Meanwhile Pikachu can still be a faggot and go offstage thunderspam/get falco daired twice and still come back.
I would literally make two simple changes to pikachu and he'd be fine.
>down b spikes pikachu offstage. If he's in the air he'll go flying down but that's it.
>up b has more landing lag
I wouldn't mind buffing Pikachu's other shit if they implemented those two changes.
As for Rosalina....
Patch 1.1.6
Character removed
I promise you the game will be better for it
>>331790568
she is already mid tier, I'm sure as meta develops she will end up being high tier so long as she doesn't get nerfed.
>>331790505
How
Why does he do well against pikachu
I genuinely don't see how he has any advantage over him
>>331789986
As a ness main I have to disagree, I fully respect good ryus. He may be easier with actually experience of him in street fighter but he is pretty honest. Still ness doesn't seem as hated as before, cloud seems to be the new flowchart character. Personally I worry about ness droping down as time passes, fortunately he hasn't received any insane nerfs and is never really touched in patches.
>Zero not going to Pound
Who ya got /v/?
>>331790635
>remove rosalina
>remove a character with literally 4 bad matchups and several even ones
>not complain about sheik having literally no bad matchups and only an even one against one character on one stage
Come on now, what the fuck man, at least try when you're trolling.
>>331790931
Nairo will win if he doesn't choke, if he does Mr.R will win
>>331790785
pikachu has great offstage game and probably the best recovery. G&W has many gimp options, probably one of the best gimp games in smash. Characters that play hit and run games against G&W are often punished.
>>331790416
>QAC is the most technical Shit in the game
Not him but I can't agree with this. It's a relative safe approach and combo opener(until the opponent learns to punish it of course). Although feel free to prove me wrong, point me to some tournament play that show how technical it is
>>331791262
I suppose I can see that. Still, I'd assume that G&W would get a train ran over him in neutral.
>>331790968
>Rosalina
>bad matchups
I have to disagree. She's stupidly good and any "bad" matchups are a result of only bad players gravitating towards her.
I'm not saying Sheik shouldn't have been nerfed. I'm saying it's been taken too far. If sheik was released in her current state when the game first came out, she would be bottom tier. It's only because of such an advanced meta has been developed around the character that you fags think that this is ok and makes her "balanced".
Fox(my sorta main) is probably better than sheik in every conceivable way now. When I first played smash 4 I could tell sheik was wholly superior as a rushdown fast character and now the tables have turned a lot.
>Pikachu
>Sonic
>Fox
They all crush her at her own game now. Fair strings might still be a thing but they'll never lead to a kill.
>>331790568
Better kill options and better follow ups thanks to slightly better speed air.
I don't think she will climb much in the tier lists but I enjoy her a lot more now.
>>331790416
all Zero does is spam fairs
Mr R at least does actual tech with her
>>331791497
in neutral it's a very even matchup IMHO but offstage where many pikas like to go he can dish out the pain. He's also one of the strongest counters to Ness.
>>331775005
>tfw no changes
>tfw never had any changes
Its been depressing watching him slide down the tiers, as others have been buffed.
>>331776904
How would you tell someone to deal with the gyro on the ledge? That always fucks me up with Falco or Mewtwo.
Why are these threads always full of DDD tears?
>>331789905
Then you're a fucking scrub because even with the landing lag reductions, a shielded bair equals to a free grab. Hell, his landing options are all shit since anyone can just run under him disregarding if he tries to fake a direction or not, and shield whatever he may or not throw and get a grab for free
>>331791765
Wouldn't spamming fairs make it a stale move and thus combo really well even at high percents, so I could see why he spam it
Sheik tourney play is incredibly boring though, I don't even bother watching. Only one who is more boring is Rosalina
>>331791968
We're big guys with big tear glands.
>>331789902
>>331790785
Both the Game and Watch and Pikachu boards on Smashboards have said it's a match that's slightly in G&W's favour, and Esam has said it's a slightly disadvantaged matchup for Pikachu.
Basically
>Pika can't T-Jolt
Pika's normal method of approach, using T-Jolt to force a shield, jump, or roll, is right the fuck out of the question. It hurts his neutral a bit.
>Pika can't Thunder
Not unless he wants to instantly lose a stock, anyways.
>No Thunder means no U-Throw to Thunder Kill
It's a 50/50, but it's a risk Pikachu can't take anymore because if he gets it wrong, G&W now has a full kill bucket. Now Pikachu lost a kill option (he only has two)
>Pikachu lacks kill options, and focuses on gimps to kill.
This is actually pretty big. G&W's recovery is good, but the problem is that he's probably the second or third worst character in the game to try and gimp. U-Air pushes Pikachu away and can fuck with QA, he can act out of his Up-B, and if Pikachu does get close enough to gimp G&W's Up-B sends him the fuck away. Can't gimp G&W with T-Jolt either, since Bucket Stalling is a thing (at least for the first use).
>G&W's aerials outrange Pika's
Especially Bair. It just fucking eats Pikachu's for breakfast. But mainly, G&W beats out Pikachu in the air.
>G&W's Smashes are fucking strong, and USmash has invincibility
Pikachu's light, just like G&W, but G&W's Smashes will fucking KILL at low percents (~80-90, 70 with rage), while Pikachu needs G&W ~112 to kill with U-Smash.
>G&W's Tilts are great
Windbox, decent hitbox, and quick startup on D-Tilt, along with disjoints on F-Tilt and both having good knockback mean that Pikachu best be really fucking careful with Quick Attacks.
Pikachu basically loses the neutral, can't force an approach, loses in the air, and has a lot of trouble killing.
It's not AS bad as I'm making it sound, but it's not good for Pikachu.
>>331792046
>mentioning stupid shit I see in FG
>retards automatically assume I'm getting beat by it and write a huge ass post about it
Lmao
>>331792271
>Pikachu can't thunder jolt
This should be a thing against all characters.
>>331792367
>>331792271
Oh wait I'm thinking of pikachu's up-b not his neutral b.
Whatevs.
Will Ness stay top tier?
Pros: good approach options, fantastic kill options, never worry about nerfs
As a ness main I feel his current placing in
Cons: mediocre recovery, kinda slow, struggles with characters who out range him
>>331792570
>top tier
>stay
He's high at best
>>331791551
>disagree with bad rosa matchups
You're disagreeing with literally the whole Rosa community.
Metaknight and Cloud are hard counters. Both of them can knock Luma away and off the stage with absolute ease, and Rosalina doesn't have an answer for either of them that isn't Luma (Metaknight's too quick, and Cloud has too much range). The top Rosa players have fucking pockets JUST for Metaknight matchups, and they've started getting them for Cloud matchups too.
Pikachu and ZSS are soft counters. Pikachu gets in with ease and almost never has to worry about Luma, and ZSS can generally knock luma off just like the other two.
Rosalina was the 3rd in S-Tier in 1.1.3. She had confirmed bad matchups against ZSS, Pika, and Meta. Since then, the Cloud matchup's been analyzed properly and he definitely has the advantage.
>>331792176
I very highly doubt he is thinking "if I spam fairs it will stale the move so I can combo". He's just mashing them out because its the EZ mode FG sheik strat.
Still maining Sheik.
>>331791871
drop down, jump and Fair it away, then recover back to the ledge or over the stage
But its more of a trade than a real answer to it, since you trade the inconvenience of the ledge gyro to no ledge inv.
But positioning a good ledge gyro aint that easy, unless it's an airdropped one, in which case you can just wait it out, or roll recover if you see rob predicting the wait with a Dair, or try to hit it away if it's dropping it over you instead of over the ledge
>>331792271
Thank you for explaining this.
>>331792367
>>331792438
I don't get what your problem with Up-B is. It's not a hit confirm for ANYTHING except the return trip of Up-B. It's a good tool to close the distance and get in close, because none of Pikachu's moves have any real range or disjoints.
>>331792790
>smash 4
>having anything that resembles a hard counter
>>331783816
>they'll never buff gordos to stop being reflectable by a light breeze
>>331793143
They exist
Just not for rosalina
>>331793143
Metaknight vs Rosa is as close to a hard counter as we can get at this point without using matchups involving Zelda or Jigglypuff.
In reality, Metaknight's 65-35, while Cloud, Pikachu, and ZSS are 60-40.
Still, none of them are good matchups for Rosalina.
>>331792570
if they nerf his bthrow and uair like they should then no
>>331793759
>like they should
Sound a bit upset there champ, gannondorf/dedede main?
>>331793918
no im just mad dks uair isnt the strongest in the game because of shota forehead, the matchup isnt really that bad for him
>>331793759
>Actually losing to Ness
>>331793997
akshually it's not the strongest in the game because of luma full body fisting
>>331792271
>>331792875
Oh, one last thing on the matchup actually.
Projectile talk.
Pikachu's still occasionally use T-Jolt and Thunder against characters with Reflects or Absorb moves (Villager, Mario, Ness/Lucas, Fox/Falco, etc.) because he can bait them into performing said move, just like he would normally bait another character into Shield.
The absolute worst that happens is Villager gets a Thunder (bad), or Ness heals 23% (pretty bad). However, if Pikachu capitalizes on it, he can usually deliver more damage than the absorb/reflect was worth, or he can go in for the U-Smash kill and whatever the other character did was for naught.
He can't do this AT ALL with G&W. Firstly, G&W's Oil Panic can kill Pikachu at ~40-50% and has ABSURD range. Pikachu normally couldn't afford to let G&W get more than two T-Jolts or one Thunder a stock, except...
...Oil Panic's charge is one of two moves in the game that carries it's status between stocks. So even if Pikachu DOES capitalize on G&W using his Oil Panic for absorbing, even if Pikachu gets the stock, G&W has a fucking amazing kill move fully charged that can kill Pikachu at half the percent he normally does.
As a result, Pikachu literally can't use T-Jolt more than twice in the whole match and he can't use Thunder EVER AT ALL.
>>331792570
>stay top tier
No, because he's not top tier.
>stay high tier
Probably. He's a league above Falcon, Yoshi, and Luigi - and he does ok against Bayo (not so much against Cloud) and ZSS now (still gets curbstomped by Sheik).
He'll stay at the bottom of High.
I've been playing Luigi since release, honestly I like him more right now than before the nerf. I still feel a bit guilty about that nair though, shit is ridiculous.
Got any advice for a PAC-MAN main who wants to get better with Kirby and Wario?
Samus and Lucas are my favorite characters. I also play as Mewtwo and Greninja. Greninja mainly because all of my other faves are slow and floaty, I feel like I need at least one really fast one.
I also like Cloud and Pac, but Cloud feels unfair most of the time and Pac has a hard time without relying too much on his fruit, which bores me.
Also I honestly don't get why Lucas is considered low tier. I get great results with him. Racking up damage is no issue at all and kills are usually not hard either with off stage reads, or his great grab.
>>331796596
>lucas
He's really underrated in my opinion, not top tier or anything but has potential.
>>331774245
>shulk has no changes AGAIN
That's what I get for playing tr4sh
>>331796596
Playing with your scrub friends and winning doesn't mean a character's good.
Lucas is low tier because he has very few advantageous matchups.
He literally has no good matchups against anyone in Top or High tier.
He has at most two good matchups against characters in mid tier.
>>331797170
I don't know what you're complaining about.
>>331796987
In tourney play you almost never see him go off stage to gimp or fair, which baffles me as it's a pretty safe option most of the time with his recovery. I can get it if they fight someone who can easily spike his PKT2 if he whiffs and they get to the stage way before him. But I think a lot of his potential lie in off stage play.
>Slight buffs to bair and Smash attacks
It's not much, but I'll take it.
>>331788940
>Ness beats person
>Person switches to Rosa
>Rosa Down B's against Ness' recovery
Ness will never be close to S because that hard ass counter exists.
Is Bayonetta the Brawl Meta Knight of Smash 4?
>>331797373
>Lucas offstage play
>With his recovery
It's because PKT2 is pretty bad, and his offstage is pretty mediocre.
His most useful offstage move, B-Air, requires a hard read to get the spike on.
F-Air's ok as a move without comparing it to others, but it actually gets outranged by a lot of other character's F-Air and B-Air. It's great on grounded opponents (especially because it has very little landing lag), but only meh on aerial ones.
D-Air's almost guaranteed to trade with any Up-B with a hitbox, except it refreshes the Up-B and so Lucas is almost always going to lose the overall trade.
PKT2 is mediocre to bad. It won't get the kill like Ness's, and it's not just readable - it telegraphs everything about it to the opponent. There may as well be a "Lucas is going here sign" for wherever he's aiming.
His whole thing is "go offstage, try a fair/dair, return with PKT2". It's very, very predictable.
Honestly, if PKT could be canceled and Lucas not go into special fall (and just can't use PKT until he gets back on stage) his offstage play would be much better.
>no G&W buffs
Suffering
>>331798227
No.
She's she's worse than Rosalina, Cloud, and Pikachu.
She has more bad matchups than each of them.
She may even be worse than Sonic and Ryu.
>>331798326
G&W does decently against most top tiers though, and even has an advantage against two of them, so he's doing ok.
>>331798326
G&W is already high mid tier.
>>331798326
>>331798463
>>331798731
I swear G&W is a really great character if you know how to use him. I admit I don't know the match up too well but I met one who pulled off good combos and racked up damage fast, and knew what to do to be hard to approach.
But all the other G&W I meet are easy as fuck so I'm inclined to believe that most people who complain about him sucking don't really know how to use him.
>>331793249
Not him, but if there are no hard counters for a character then they need to be nerfed.
>>331798227
So far Sheik has been the metaknight of 4
I doubt people will keep bitching about her now though
Speaking of, how many ranks did she drop after the patch? She can't still be top of the list.
>>331799115
from SS to S
>>331799115
>So far Sheik has been the metaknight of 4
>I haven't followed Brawl at all
>>331798289
>and it's not just readable - it telegraphs everything about it to the opponent
But I thought PKT2 has steeper turn than PKT1
>>331799057
>anyone without a Hard Counter needs to be nerfed
Even Ganon and Zelda aren't hard countered by anyone anymore.
There's like, no hard counters in the game for anyone who's not Jigglypuff.Everyone hard counters Jigglypuff
>>331799273
It does, but it's still extremely visible.
And if your opponent is watching, they can see EXACTLY where you are going.
>tfw no tourney to practice these new characters in
>>331799289
any character with lots of disjointed hitboxes (in other words animu swordsmen) are pretty close to hard counters for samus if they know how to abuse her hurtbox extensions
What's the next major?
>>331776848
Hah so Raykalm is the Ganondorf rep? Glad to see the Toronto scene actually getting someone out there. Yet to play him but got stomped by his brother plenty of times.
>>331798463
Does Pac-Man have any advantages against any of the top tiers?
>>331799636
Apparantly the luma can't return to rosalina if there's a hydrant between them so there's that. But not really.
>>331799115
Dropped pretty hard. She lost her MAJOR kill option, and her neutral game lost a lot too.
Ryu, Pikachu, Fox, Diddy, and Sonic all have a distinct advantage over her now.
Cloud, Rosalina, and Captain Falcon have a slight advantage or go even with her.
She's dropped to at LEAST B-Tier, maybe bottom of A if she's lucky and Mr. R & Void keep winning with her.
In a strange turn of events, she actually loses the neutral to Ganondorf now (though that's more a combination of Sheik's nerfs AND Ganon's buffs being exactly what he needed to have that happen).
>>331799258
I don't follow brawl, I was just assuming he meant the "top tier uber broken can't be beaten" character. Nobody in smash 4 is as busted as MK was in brawl.
>>331799521
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPVj-ESQgbM&spfreload=10
That fucking uair buff, god almighty.
>>331799502
>any character with lots of disjointed hitboxes (in other words animu swordsmen) are pretty close to hard counters for samus if they know how to abuse her hurtbox extension
Not since this patch.
Slight hitbox buffs, a lot of endlag buffs, decent airspeed buffs, and she now fires projectiles faster (lasts just as long, so no followups, but she doesn't get interrupted).
None of the swordie matches are in her favour, but no one hard counters her anymore.
>>331774245
Not a serious fighting game
>>331799739
>In a strange turn of events, she actually loses the neutral to Ganondorf now
This is without a doubt the most retarded and wrong opinion regarding smash I've read on this site.
>>331799739
This is kind of what I imagined... I heard people saying she was like 6th-8th now and that seems a little low but I havent played her much since the patch so I havent had a ton of testing...
Honestly I'm glad to hear that, been maining her since the game launched (and in Melee/Brawl for whatever that's worth..) and its always been really annoying being called a tier fag. Now the only people playing her will be dedicated players or scrubs I can stomp no problem.
>>331800083
>ZeRo's opinion is retarded
plz go
>>331799723
>Apparantly the luma can't return to rosalina if there's a hydrant between them so there's that.
That doesn't help, since Gravity Pull removes the hydrant as long as Rosa is within the same postcode.
Does Pac have an advantage against anyone tiered higher that him?
>>331800336
Zero said Charizard's Bair was safe on block and good in neutral pre 1.1.5
He's a reactionary retard
>>331800554
I'll still take the word of the best player over a random anon.
>>331800357
What tier would you put Pac in? He kind of bodies anyone who can't deal with projectiles, like the Cap or Luigi
>>331800647
>Taking the word of someone who time and time again has proven he can't stop himself from spouting bullshit based on emotional reaction
I guess Lucario is the best character in the game then.
>>331800357
Pac's actually got an advantage over Captain Falcon and goes even with Ryu.
That's about as much as I know though.
Oh, also Sonic and Fox fucking WRECK Pac Man. Pick up a pocket for these matches.
>>331800702
>>331800942
cap and ryu wrecks his ass once they manage to break through his projectile/hydrant wall though
>>331800830
>Taking the word of someone who time and time again has won tourney after tourney after tourney, after winning a previous tourney
Yeah. That.
>>331799115
Wasn't Bayonetta the best character in the game since she was released? All I've been hearing since then are people bitching about how broken she is.
>>331801015
which shouldn't happen
that's a silly way of putting it, like yeah, if you kill luma, suddenly pac has a decent matchup against rosa?
>>331801025
No, Sheik was. Bayo loses to several characters. Sheik's worst matchup was against Ryu on Battlefield, and it was a 50-50. Every other one of hers (including Bayo) was at least slightly in Sheik's advantage.
Bayo's never had a good matchup against Cloud, Sonic, or Pikachu. Diddy's got a slight advantage on her as well.
>>331801021
Lucario is S tier untouchable by any other character
Bayonetta has no combo game
Little Mac is high tier
Thanks anon, now that I've given up my ability to critically think and take the temper tantrums of a manchild at face value, I truly see the sm4sh meta as it is.
>>331801015
>once Luma's gone Rosa sucks
>if Pikachu doesn't QA he's easy pickings
>if Diddy doesn't use his bananas anyone can beat him
>if Cloud refuses to charge his limit he's much easier
This is what you sound like.
>>331801025
Bayo is laggy which makes her struggle against faster characters, but all she needs is to land one witch time to either spike at ledge, fully up smash or start a 0% to death combo
>>331800942
I haven't fought many Fox players, but Falco players give me trouble.
Also, I find Pac's trampoline works well against Sonic.
>>331801398
>>331801103
I'm just saying, it's in his favor but if they know how to avoid it and get up close then his melee options are kinda shit. It's just a comment, calm down.
>>331801534
Pac's Tramp works great against Sonic's who don't spinshot.
Against a Sonic who can Spinshot, you're basically fucked.
Also, for the Fox matchup - imagine Falco, but 4 times harder. (Fox is just so much better than Falco).
>>331801679
>>Fox is just so much better than Falco
>Falco is supposed to be an air fighter
>But Fox is much better in the air anyway
Falco is like the one character that should have stayed a "clone", apparantly
>>331799036
I know what you mean. I've gotten my ass wiped by him because I thought I didn't know the matchup, but he is really hard to play against because so few people use him and his attacks are all awkward as fuck. I tried to make him my secondary because nobody uses him but he's hard as fuck to get use to and dies super fast.
>>331801846
The problem with falco is that they nerfed almost everything good about him. He lost his 2 best tools with 0 compensation and his frame data across the board is worse than it was in brawl. He's just a giant ball of mediocre now
>>331801679
Well, then I'm fucked. I don't want to give up Pac, and I don't know any of the high tiers that well.
>>331802170
they should have lucas'd him t b h there is literally no reason for people to play him or doc mario.
>>331802170
I almost picked up Falco in 4 but he feels so unrewarding. Even Samus has better combo game than him, it seems. She actually has a pretty solid combo game despite her overall issues though so not a fair comparison maybe.
>>331802231
Do you play on a professional level? Just stick with him, pick up secondaries and tertiaries but there is no reason to drop a character you like.
>>331802231
Pac can do pretty well at a medium competitive level for sure, especially if you pick up a secondary for the really awful matchups (he has a few)
>>331774245
>Rosalina got no nerfs
at least Kirby fucks up rosalina a lot.
>>331802730
How exactly does Kirby fuck up Rosalina? The Luma by itself is practically better than he is. Is there any feasible way for Kirby to approach Rosalina, or do anything to her at all?
>>331774245
>all of those samus buffs
fuck. I always struggle fighting her even if its a bad samus.
>Check my mains
>Nothing
>Minor buffs that don't really fix problems, just make certain moves better
>Several nerfs, none of which actually make the character fundamentally worse
Such is the Doc/Palu/Bayo life. This is the path I chose.
>>331802469
>>331802705
I placed 3rd in a local tourney, but that was almost a year ago. I'd play in more, but my work schedule fucks that up.
My best secondary would be Link, but he's not much better on the tier list.
>Sakurai is glad about this, and also surprised. This indicates that players have been understanding the concept in the right way. A huge gap of skills, which in other words means a high competitive factor, is in Melee. However, he wants to avoid a situation where strong players dominate over weak ones. He wants to have things so that new players can also enjoy, too. This is something Sakurai has talked about in previous columns.
>He goes on to say that those who are interested in the strategy/competitive nature of player-vs-player may find that regular fighting games are more suitable for them. Games like Virtua Fighter 2 had exaggerated attacks, but he doesn’t see the title being played in tournaments overseas. Sakurai wonders if this is due to a difference in culture.
I love smash tourneyfags being btfo when it comes to their game being competitive.
>>331799036
>>331802075
To be honest, G&W isn't that great, he just has the exact tools he needs to have an advantage over certain characters. Against most others, he's ok but not the best. He really is too light.
>>331802231
I wouldn't give Pac completely up. He's a decent character.
His combo game's good, he's got pretty nice tilts, his dash attack is fucking great, and the aerials are pretty fast. He just doesn't have the range or power to give him truly advantageous matchups.
Other than Fox and Sonic, no top tier has a significant advantage against Pac-Man. They do have AN advantage, it's just not huge.
If you want to pick a secondary whose not top tier, Wario and Yoshi complement Pac-Man's matchups fairly well.
If you're willing to pick from high tier, Diddy's basically a faster pac man with more power and a similar (but arguably better) projectile.
>>331802952
Kirby attacks fast and hits luma off the stage a lot. Kirby isn't the best at approaching her, I usually use uairs or Fairs, but when he does get in there he can fuck luma up. A bair knocks him a far ways and usually off stage
>>331803319
>Other than Fox and Sonic, no top tier has a significant advantage against Pac-Man.
Don't forgot Rosalina. She hard-counters Pac in the worst way.
>>331800078
>go from "not a real fighting game" to "not a serious fighting game"
We're getting somewhere.
>wanted to play pac
>realized only his specials are good
I had to drop him even if he was pretty fun, his overall moveset was just to shit.
>>331803130
>Link Secondary
DO I HAVE NEWS FOR YOU
Dsmash Second Hit KBG: 57 -> 63
Dash Attack:
KBG: 78/78/72 -> 85/85/77
Angle: 45/60/70 -> 45/50/55
Dash Attack fucking kills at 60% now. Good luck landing it of course.
>not much better on the tier list
Actually, Link's worse. By far. That said, you're looking at the tier list the wrong way.
In previous Smashes, high-tiers could generally beat out anyone more than one or two steps lower on the tier list.
In this current Smash, a character's placement on the tier list should just be looked at as they have more or less good or bad matchups.
No one currently in the top 3 has less than 3 bad matchups. And they all certainly have several (~7+) even matchups. So that's near 10 different characters for each of the top characters that they do not have a distinct advantage against. And they change per character, so while Pikachu has a problem with G&W, Rosa goes about even on Yoshi, Bayo doesn't appreciate fighting Kirby, and Cloud's not fond of fighting Charizard.
Pac Man's fine - he does pretty well against Ryu and generally if he even has a bad matchup against the other top tiers, it's only a small disadvantage.
>>331776396
>Bayonetta
Never use your double jump before up b. Treat your Up B as if it's your double jump.
The pattern to do a basic recovery is up b, double jump, and up b again. If you want a horizontial recovery, use side b, and know that using side b on a wall knocks you up so it can help with vertical height too.
>>331804152
>Dash attack KBG Increased
help
>>331804109
This is pretty much my situation too. I don't really like playing projectile games, so I only ever used his fruit now and then when it fit. But all of his tilts are so meh and his aerials feel like lost potential.
They're kinda okay though. You can chain 4 fairs together, pushing people way off stage which outright kills Clouds and Macs, or throw out a fruit for those it doesn't. Up air is decent if you remember to angle it right. Nair speaks for itself. Dair catches air and spot dodges and can kill. Bair is okay for offstage kills too.
>>331800357
Ryu main here. Pac Man is the fucking bane of my existance. I'll take a 20 pre-nerf sheiks before I fight Pac-Man. Well, him and Diddy. I fucking hate Diddy with a passion.
>>331777768
What is wectoring?
What's the current tier list looking like?No eventscrubs pls.
>>331804606
>pick projectile based character
>don't use projectiles
wat
this is like picking megaman but not using lemons, or like picking bayonetta but not using witchtime
true most of pac's specials are pretty medicore, but you should always have a fruit charged up. whether it's a strawberry, a melon, or a key, always have on on standby.
I mean, look at what you're missing out on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEVDvfzcvXU
>>331804710
A fun glitch that got patched
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N88FInWUfVo
>>331805194
okay I use them often, but I don't hide behind the hydrant charging it the entire match like most pacs seem to do even in tourney play. Camping is just boring to me, but I enjoy his aerials. I like going melee and using the projectiles to mix it up.
>>331805156
This is the most recent tier list. >>331785735
Likely changes that have happened though:
Sheik to B-Tier (possibly A)
ZSS to A-Tier (possibly B)
Pikachu to S-Tier
Cloud to S-Tier
Bayonetta to S-Tier (possibly A)
Greninja possibly to D-Tier
Corrin to E-Tier (possibly D)
Charizard to E-Tier (huge bump but he deserved it)
Mewtwo possibly to E-Tier
1.1.4 Patch - Marth to E-Tier (possibly F)
1.1.4 Patch - Lucina to G-Tier
Ganondorf to G-Tier (possibly H)
Samus to H-Tier (possibly G)
Zelda to I-Tier (possibly just top of J)
There's a few other changes of course, just by virtue of Sheik and ZSS getting nerfed (like Sonic moving above Ryu, Kirby moving to the front of F, etc.), but those aren't nearly as apparent right now.
>>331805483
Then you should probably be playing Diddy instead.
Similar but better aerials, and better on stage melee too.
He'll basically feel similar but better.
>>331805156
Bayo top, she can literally kill so early it's MVC3 touch of death level
>>331805156
>>331805156
Using ZeRo's tier list as base, probably looks something like this
>>331806786
jesus christ, no she can't, stop propagating these myths
nearly every one of her combos is escapable once it gets to kill percents - only super heavies and palutena have problems getting out, and they have waaay more problems than bayonetta
she also has more bad matchups than any of the other contenders for S-tier
>>331774245
>These Charazard Buffs
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
>>331807153
sorry, zero's a good player, but he's absolutely shit at analyzing the game
he fucking thought little mac was top tier and that lucario needed a nerf
>>331807153
>samus in mid
>marth and lucina right next to each other
>robin that far below shulk
>bowser jr that low
Ike/Meta-Knight main here.
Anyone wanna smash?
>>331807153
if you glanced at that list real quick, you'd probably think "yeah, that's a good list, makes sense"
then if you actually looked closer at you'd think "what the fuck was he smoking"
>>331807941
>actually playing smash
>not just using the thread to shitpost
people still do this?
>>331777827
He's still pretty much a worse Cloud competitively.
>>331782848
You mean Captain Unviable
Captain Meme
Captain Only Played By Kids
Captain LOOK MOM IM GUNNA GET THE KNEE
Captain For Glory
Captain Will Never Be Good
>>331808583
Captain D-Throw confirms Knee.
Captain U-Air confirms D-Air.
Captain Dash Attack confirms Up-B.
>>331776396
Hey anon, how'd you make this image? I'd like to make my own
>>331809290
>D-Throw confirms knee
>>331809303
https://quetzle.github.io/smash-apps/tier/
That's the Tier List one.
https://quetzle.github.io/smash-apps/
That gets you a few more.
>>331809567
>D-Throw confirms Knee
>>331809692
>D-Throw confirms Knee
Is this was Captain Cucks believe?
>>331809789
>D-throw confirms knee
>>331809789
Dthrow can confirm knee but it's situational.
The way it works is dashgrab momentum carries over through Dthrow and slides him into the positioning for knee.
>>331809585
Sweet, thanks anon
>>331774245
Bowser
Pretty good. He got a tiny buff and I think he is in a pretty nice spot, especially with the ZSS and Sheik nerfs.
>>331809963
A super situational combo based on %, momentum and character is not a confirm at all
>>331810179
Do you know what the definition of a confirm is? It's a combo where you can react that first hit conencted and then go into the second hit without having to guess whether or not the first move actually hit. Being percent based doesn't disqualify it from being a confirm.
>>331778367
>>331776848
>Meta Knight
MK Leo is the best MK player. Hell, Ito is a better MK than Tyrant
>Marth
Mr E is better. His perfect pivot tech is looking scary as shit.
>Sheik
Void and Mr R are better Sheiks. Way more technical and efficient
>Shulk
9B dropped Shulk for Ryu months ago. There are very few Shulks nowadays, but the best is probably Tremendo Dude or Sodrek.
Jayroach is by far the most technically talented Shulk I've ever seen (hell maybe the most technical sm4sh player), but as far as I'm aware, he doesn't go to tourneys.
>>331810362
Void and Mr R may be better at optimization but Zero has better fundamentals which at the end of the day makes his Sheik stronger and more tournament capable.
This patch kinda fucked over fundamental styled Sheik so we'll see how that goes in the future.
>>331810006
He fucking wrecks Corrin too.
Bowser's fucking great. His matchup with Sheik isnabiut even now too - he doesn't die until ~250, while he can kill Sheik at 70 since she just got her weight nerfed too.
>>331810548
Yeah, I'd like to see how Zero places now his needle camp - f-throw bouncing fish - d-throw 50/50 faggotry has been gutted
>>331810179
It's a confirm, just a confirm that works at very specific percents. It works on all characters too.
>>331810706
ZeRo's already said that he's switching back to Diddy and Rosalina.
Bayo's too complicated for him apparently.
>>331810862
>Rosalina
Christ, what a fucking tierwhore
>>331810362
Not quite sure on the Mr. E/Pugwest thing, guess It would have to go with the one who has better results.
>>331810548
>>331810706
He'll probably drop her soon, and at that moment I'll be glad to put Mr. R in his place
>>331810862
...Or right the fuck now I guess, got the source?
>>331810862
>Bayo's too complicated for him apparently.
This should be the nail in the coffin for retards saying 1.1.4 Sheik's difficulty warranted her dominance. Yes Sheik had and has arguably the greatest technical depth in the game. 1.1.4 Sheik could still wreck most of the roster without using any of it.
This patch didn't kill Sheik. It killed ez mode pocket Sheik.
>>331811062
Mr. R AND Void are better Sheik's, but ZeRo's just straight up better at Smash. ZeRo's dropping Sheik anyways...
I'd say the first tourney that Mr. R wins, put him for Sheik instead of ZeRo.
>>331811453
Don't bother, that stupid image gets posted in every thread and there's always at least a couple people telling them to change Sheik to someone that doesn't spam fairs but they don't listen.
Did zero say he's dropping her for sure now? I can't imagine he would stick with her all the way down in A tier.
>>331774245
none of the patches have been good
>>331811095
It nerfed skilled Sheik as well.
Pikachu, Diddy, Cloud, Sonic, and Rosalina all have advantages against her now.
Fox has a slight advantage against her.
Ryu has a large advantage.
It definitely killed ez mode, and Sheik's still a great character, but it did affect her pretty harshly.
>>331811453
Nothing would make me happier, save for doing it right now if someone can link me to Zero saying he's dropping her, can't seem to find it on his twitter (it seems he fell in love with Pokken though)
>>331811608
Hey I haven't posted the pic since before the patch, like at the start of March.
>>331810972
>>331811062
Pugwest only really gets results in doubles with his brother there. He lives in New England i.e. bumfuck nowhere for Smash.
Mr E on the other hand regularly faces top professionals as he's in New York.
Both are ranked 4th in their regions power-rankings, but the only notable player in New England is his brother Marss who's number 1. meanwhile in New York, you have Dabuz, Vinne, JOHN FUCKING NUMBERS, MikeKirby, DKWill, Raptor and Jtails. Way more talent there, yet he's made it to #4.
That says a LOT when he's playing Marth
>>331811841
maybe not you specifically but I see that shit on the reg
no biggy
>>331811608
He's going to Rosa while he's going to pocket Diddy.
He talked about possibly trying Cloud out, but he doesn't know if he'll stick with him.
>>331811967
That's funny, I think him playing Rosalina is the only way he could make people hate him more than they already do.
Glad he's dropping Sheik finally though
>>331811851
You mean John FUCKING Numbers, world champion?
You've convinced me.
>>331811885
Alright.
>>331811841
>dropping ZeRo from best Sheik main
Don't do it yet, as much as it should be done.
I can't find the source either, though some of my friends told me he said something similar at a recent tourney. Either way, he's the most non-commital guy ever and flip flops on his decisions daily. He may drop Sheik forever, or pick her back up a few hours after he officially drops her.
>>331812160
>player who plays Bayo is named Salem
Found this while looking for Zero jumping ship.
HOLY SHIT, can't believe I missed it for three days
>>331811062
Is this accurate for Doc and Palutena? I've been meaning to check out some high-level footage to improve with those two. I've mostly watched Nairo for Doc and Aerolink for Palutena.
>>331786008
Not the guy you're arguing with, but with proper DI falcon gets almost nothing from his grab especially at killpercent or if he happens to slide to the edge. With proper DI from falcon's opponent he gets 1 uair and thats it. Also falcon is know to be the best combo weight in the game because off his large frame, heavy weight and fastfaller status.
>>331812843
I dunno let's see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kyQ_6EKW2g
>>331812160
This looks pretty much perfect now (aside from exctinct Zard and Bowser jr mains)
Only debatable characters I can see are ones where there are some really good foreign contenders
>King Dedede
El_Bardo from Spain is considered by some to be the best
>Sanic
Komorikiri may very well be the best Sonic too
>Greninja
Some from Japan is the guy responsible for all those crazy Greninja vines. We've yet to see him play outside Japan
>Wario
You have Gluttony from France
>>331813682
>>331812843
How does Aerolink stack up compared to IceNinja?
I remember him being the face of Palutena
>>331805208
How did something so simple go unnoticed by the devs? Do they even play their own games?
>>331814096
Isn't Aerolink more of a waifu main than a Palutena main?
>>331814709
Ah I looked it up. He dropped her for ZSS and Rosaluma after the autists banned customs, then picked her back up later on and finally dropped her again for Bayo when she came out
>>331814709
>does Aerolink main waifu's
only if a bear shits in the woods
As a cloud main i'm a little sad about the nerfs, but it was all warranted. My friends still complain when I win anyway so why does it matter.
>>331816109
He's still EZ mode top tier. At least now he doesn't have that free as fuck u-air
>>331774245
I tried out Zelda, and maybe it's just me... but she plays really well after the patch.
I was a mewtwo main but I recently started trying all the different characters with the changes that has been made to them and I think I'm starting to gravitate to King DDD.
>>331815257
>autists ban customs
the only lower tiers that would significantly benefit from customs are DK and Palutena.
Otherwise, all the already high tiers would just become even more untouchable.
I mean, we all know pre-nerf Sheik becomes fairer when she gets a paralyzing neutral-b, a combo-starting side-b, and a fucking meteor spiking up-b. And just for kicks, there's a forward launching down-b if they feel Sheik wanted slightly better recovery.
>>331816497
Why the FUCK would you pick now to move from Mewtwo of all fucking characters to DDD who will never be bufed because Sakurai thinks he's already perfect.
>>331816692
Masochism.
>>331816109
>a little sad about all the nerfs
>thinking the nerfs actually did ANYTHING
here's your fucking changes down to percents
>All smashes + Side-B kill 1% later (always)
>U-Air kills 2% later and deals 1% less damage
>Aerial Finishing Touch kills 5-7% later depending on character
Literally NONE of this matters. At all. That's like thinking Kirby, G&W, and Duck Hunt got major buffs.
>Limit Charge takes 0.42 extra seconds
The only time this will actually matter is during his recovery if you haven't already charged his limit. That's it. And his recovery already sucked.
I don't actually think Cloud needed any nerfs - I think all the other characters should just be buffed heavily up to near Cloud's level - but his current nerfs did fucking nothing.
>>331816497
Just so you know, King Dedede has had NO BUFFS EVER, only nerfs during 1.1.4 and 1.0.4.
Every other change to him was purely cosmetic.
Meanwhile, Mewtwo just got a pretty sizeable buff in this patch, probably enough to move him up to another tier.
>>331816497
>dropping best pokemon in the game for the king of nerfs
what the fuck is wrong with people
>>331816630
The funny thing is the issue of balance was never even the reason why they banned customs. It was just sheer conservatism and laziness.
And no, plenty more of the lower tiers benefit. Marth gets an amazing kill combo from a throw/grab relase with Crescent slash.
Kirby gets jumping inhale and meteor stone.
Dorf actually gets a decent approach option with his wizard's dropkick
Link gets a not shit boomerang and meteor bombs
Robin gets speed thunder and firewall to help deal with rushdown better
Wii fit Trainer gets Jumbo hoop to abuse like wind Dong
Shulk gets power vision to murder people from jabs and hyper arts make him insane
Mega man gets Danger wrap, which actually gives him a reliable kill option
And as for Sheik, gravity grenade and abyss are some of the most telegraphed attacks in the game. Paralysing needles and penetrating needles are really the only amazing customs she has and the needle nerf makes them even less useful now.
>>331817228
>There's pretty much no videos from Jdawg, Big D or El Bardo since at least 1 month
>mfw all my DDD spiritual guides are Soul Train and giant memers Girthquake and Khonjin.
>>331816630
I don't know why you chose Sheik to complain about high tier customs, hers really aren't that great. They're not bad but they tend to be a lot more situational than her defaults, she always loses something if she chooses a custom over another move and the good ones are worse for neutral generally. Rosalina is the only high tier or up with straight upgrades.
Ganon is probably one of the characters that benefits the most from customs, Wizard's Dropkick alone is far better than the default and changes his whole game. Mega Man also gets a lot of variety in his weapons that help him counterpick more matchups, especially after the buffs to his customs. There are plenty of others. Lower tiers benefit most just because their default kits tended to be flawed in the first place which patches have helped to fix. Most people never really got that creative with them though, I still feel like most people still don't know shit about customs at all and a lot of the old sets people used were really shitty.
>>331817956
point is that top tiers get slightly stronger while low tiers are not even remotely near them still (if anything, further away)
on top of that, you get incredibly shitty gameplay like wind kong, trip villager, and star bits rosa, and they're a massive bitch to unlock which makes them unviable for small scale tourneys most of the time
i liked customs for the time they lasted but they're gone now and for pretty good reasons
the only thing I dislike is that they took Miis with them, undeservedly
>>331818140
Sheik's entire neutral is defined by how insanely strong her needles are, and paralyzing needles are just a better version of those. It's a buff. A small but significant one on a character that's already extremely strong.
>>331816692
The power of pure jank.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoCNxEQBgwc&spfreload=10
>>331818285
Balloon trip villager was only perpetuated by that faggot Captain Awsum who camps regardless and ADHD who was just being a salty bitch.
look at what happens when customs get used against customs
https://youtu.be/6QQI1WIV4Bc?t=57
Wind dong only works if your opponent is impatient. You just don't challenge it and if you get caught in it, you can airdodge out of the second hit.
I understand what you mean, but I think it was far too early days from them to abandon customs. They were barely used and so many counters were found to those BS moves you mentioned
>>331818974
So what? The game has 58 characters already, and customs didn't add much - only really detracted. You can say it made some low tier characters more viable, but that's.. kind of it? It shuffles characters around beneath top tier, while not touching those above. Sheik, ZSS, and Rosa would still beat everyone, and Rosa got extremely cancerous because of them. And to what end, if you're forcing all these TOs to grind or 3DS these customs? It just wasn't worth it and the game is balanced and varied enough without them: I really can't see the customs meta be MORE balanced than the current vanilla game, at all.
>>331818629
It's a slower move and the paralysis on it isn't as good as other paralyzing moves, it's not an upgrade to needles. You also mentioned a combo-starting side B which goes at a higher and farther angle that you can rarely hit anyone with in neutral, a spiking up B with a slow and hard to hit spike that also ruins her recovery completely, and using any Bouncing Fish variation removes a kill option Sheik needs. Her customs really aren't that great.
>>331818974
I do think Wind Kong is probably the most problematic just because the windbox can be inconsistent but it doesn't effect matches that often from what I've seen and played. Exploding balloons and Villager's recovery in general have been nerfed since then but customs were already banned by that point.
>>331818285
I wasn't aware Miis were taken out as well. There's really no reason to take them out. It's not like any of them were very good in the first place, and setting up Mii Special setups is pretty much a somewhat more simple variations of setting up customs.
I'm also kind of sad/butthurt that customs are gone as a Palutena main since her defaults are dogshit compared to her alternates (Jump Glide alone would be tremendous for her neutral game, and being stuck with a Counter when I could have Celestial Fireworks or Lightweight is horseshit, etc.) Not to mention that I'd probably also play more Ganondorf if Customs were around, because Wizard Dropkick/Two-hit combo Up Special/Multi-hit pushing Side Special/Warlock Stab are all just awesome for him (well, the last one is probably just a sidegrade depending on what you're going for, but still).
>tfw your main is completely averageOr is he above average? I don't know.
>>331819243
Customs add a a pretty damn large layer and make previously bad MUs easier.
E.g. Robin using speed thunder and firewall when going against Sonics and falcons
And it isn't just shuffling of lower tiers. It's making them more viable. Ganondorf and Palutena benefit SO much from customs being used. They go from being unviable bottom tier trash to usable.
I'll concede that it makes Rosa a pain, but it doesn't by any means make her broken or an unbreakable wall. I'd gladly take a more annoying Rosalina, a far more usable and varied roster and TOs spending 20 minutes transferring customs to consoles than I would not having customs at all.
>>331819291
not him, but you're wrong about the needles.
They're a huge buff - you don't need lots of paralysis so long as you can hit before the paralysis wears off. And she can, which means it's a fucking grab confirm which would have been broken pre-patch, and now it's a bouncing fish confirm which would make it nearly as broken.
Pretty much everything you mentioned previously wouldn't have moved any character to any other tier except maybe forward or back a bit in their own, aside from Wind Kong.
There have been PLENTY of Custom Tournaments.
Nearly all the winners were Sheik, Rosalina, ZSS, and Diddy. At least in regular tournaments we have always had things like Toon Link and Mario winning occasionally, even when HOOHAH was around.
Introducing customs is pretty much the same problem as the Smooth Lander equipment people want to introduce. Sure, it lets Ganondorf recover from D-Air landing lag this century, but now it lets Sheik perform 6 SHFF F-Airs before you can blink. Customs are the same - the low tiers get slightly better, and the high tiers benefit the most.
>>331819534
You know what the saddest thing about Palutena is?
Instead of all her wacky and fresh specials, the devs left her with a teleport, a reflector and a counter for her default moves.
>>331819763
Zero considers both to be the top of high tier. Apparently due to them being very good all round but not really having anything exceptional. But I wouldn't know. I never play pits
>pac-man's bair finally buffed
>it's almost nothing
I'm bored, anyone want to do a late night Smash tourney?
>>331819243
>>331819883
Those top tiers continue to win because they were great characters played by great players, customs add more to low tiers but they don't make them magically top tier. If they did they'd actually be broken. What's nice about them is all the new options they provide and how they allow many characters to counterpick in new ways. Personally I'm not even arguing that customs should be the competitive meta, I understand it's not all that viable to set up. I just disagree that top tiers benefit the most from them. Rosalina is the main one that does, and that's because her default star bits are useless. Teleporting Luma is also ridiculously good but you can at least predict where it will go since it's a set distance.
>>331819838
Sorry, but if Customs are allowed Sonic wrecks Robin.
BSD Jump combos straight into F-Smash, while HSD lets Sonic avoid any shit Robin throws at him.
Not even considering that Sonic gets a fucking Footstool Stomp combo when you give him customs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j3yBFJciD4
Or if you choose Surprise Attack he gets an actually useful homing attack that Robin has no real way of stopping.
Sure, customs make bad characters better, but it helps the higher tiers even more.
>>331774245
i want to main cloud or bayo because for competitive they both seem good and i actually dont mind playing as them because neither seem like a cunt of a character yet. my go to main is falcon tho, i like his speed and i like that he is the opposite of every anime faggot fire emblem character in the game.
you hate on falcon just remember he has no projectiles, no sword, no bullshit hitbox and he isn't even the fastest character in the game
>>331819763
pit has been nurfed since brawl. i liked brawl pit way more though he was top tier then
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH528Pdh1Rk
So this Bidou tech looks pretty useful, but quite too complicated of executing. But then again I thought the same thing about wavedashing and everyone does it now.
I hope people put enough time learning this to see what kind of new possibilities this bring to the table.
>>331821539
I've been working on it. It makes perfect pivoting super easy but learning to hold the special button down can be take some adjustment
>Play Charizard
>That lurking Flare Blitz around every misinput of bidou
>>331793759
>nerf his back throw
I nO RitE?!? Whil3 THeRE @ !t thaaaa shod nurf F0xeseses Up aaaiirre
>>331791968
because sakurai refuse to accept DDD as a real character
>>331790568
she went from being "shit tier" to "can do good tier"
>>331822037
just tape it down.
>>331821539
For fuck's sake, I'm already ruining my hands maining Shulk and now this appears? I think I'll pass for now. That controller setup is jarring as hell
>>331822037
I'd imagine players with mains who only have to focus on fundamentals will be the first ones picking up this tech
>>331822959
But then I won't be able to pull off special moves at all.
>>331823149
There are shit tons of Captain Falcons, Macs, and Foxes already in on this. Their reward is most obvious due to good perfect pivots and initial dashes.
>>331821539
Jesus Christ, that's ridiculous. Now all this takes is for some player to learn these techs and dominate the scene.
>>331816403
As someone who's regularly used zelda since launch, I'm pretty sure it isn't just you.
Her nair is really good at starting combos now if you land it right. You can follow it up with her tilts and farore's wind up until really late percentages. Also, up air is awesome now and gives her her very own hoo hah, which is huge in this game.
Not sure if she'll shoot up the tier list, but she's got a lot more going for her now.
>>331824961
princesses already have hoo has
>>331821539
>mfw let brother have wii u and am stuck with 3Ds
>>331824961
She's definitely better, but not great by any means. Since the buff, her only good matchup now is little mac. She'll probably just stay in bottom, but at least she'll be as good as if not slightly better than DDD.
>hoo has
She already had it. It's just more forgiving since U-Air has a bigger hitbox.
>>331812160
Vex is the best ganon
>>331817048
Realistically that extra .42 seconds really doesn't allow you to use limit as pressure for your opponent to approach now though, it literally HAS to be camped now.
Finishing touch at this point is pretty much worthless as you may as well go for the Cross Slash. It's endlessly better on shield, as where finishing touch has so much endlag.
The Up-Air was needed, as they didn't really change much, but it still helps keep his up air from being so guaranteed.
haven't played since forever, but if Samus and Zelda are better sounds good to me
gotta test it out later
>>331775894
>Maining Bayo still, despite nerfs.
You say this like she got crippling nerfs or something.
>>331827863
Samus is significantly better, Zelda only a tiny bit better.
>>331826071
The extra .42 seconds doesn't really matter on the ground since a lot of your charge should come from landing hits, not Down-B.
It only really matters in the air because falling for an extra half a second is a lot of distance to cover.
![maxresdefault[3].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Fnj6IBB.jpg "maxresdefault[3]")
