Name an RPG with better quests
- Home
- Board: /v/ - Video Games
- Reading: Name an RPG with better quests
Name an RPG with better quests
>the dreamworld where you got nothing but a torch and some clothes to cover you with
>the living painting where a thief painted some trolls that killed him
>stuck on an island and the only way to leave is to beat the killing game
>spend the night on a floating inn, only to wake up with the boat in the middle of the ocean
>that entire Dark Brotherhood questline (that moment you realize that you were used as a pawn to kill your very allies)
>that entire Thieves guild questline (that initiation mission alone was fun as fuck)
>those random side quests in villages
>that haunted house in Anvil
>that arena quest line
>that Shivering Isles DLC
>That Knights of the Nine DLC
>that OST
THIS fucking quest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JD_xuwpEno [Embed]
Literally NO RPG comes CLOSE to the variety/fun factor involved with Oblivions quests. Not even fucking close. Too all the people posting Planescape and Morrowind, way to confirm how much of a try hard faggot who hasn't even played those games that you are. Stop trying to fit in, Morrowinds quests were fucking horrible outside of a select few.>inb4 the autistic New Vegas "MUH BRANCHING PATHS = GOOD QUESTS" shits up this thread again
>inb4 salty Morrowshitters turn this into a Morrowind vs oblivion thread again to make up for their fetch quest simulator
>>331443927
What the fuck are you talking about? The quests in Oblivion were abysmal.
>>331444247
Name an RPG with better quests giving examples of the quests
>>331444350
Easy.
None of the quests in Oblivion can compete in terms of complexity.
>>331444453
Come back when New Vegas can beat the second worst Fallout in terms of quests.
>>331444580
And if you were less of a retard you'd realise that the quest on the left barely involves skill/stats checks.
If you think branching alone was what made a quest good then you don't know what you're talking about.
For a good quest in an RPG you need both branches to make room for player decisions and role playing choice but you also need stats/skill checks in order to recognise the player character build.
Given that you fail to understand this it doesn't surprise me that you actually think Oblivion had good quests - or Fallout 3 for that matter.
>>331444770
Not to mention that the quest on the left involves fetching things. There is not a single actual "choice" in there that would reflect on the player character.
And when it comes to the outcome of the quest, you have essentially two choices: either fetch everything or convince the quest-giver to give up.
In the New Vegas quest, the choice of how to solve the quest as well as the outcome permanently affects the character in multiple ways. For example branding him as a cannibal or affecting his disposition with the factions in certain ways.
>>331444770
>B-BUT
>B-BUT STAT DISTRIBUTION
The goalpost shifting you displayed in the last thread has made its way here I see. New Vegas is worse than Fallout 4 senpai, stay mad.
>obshittain """"""""""""""""""""games"""""""""""""""""""""
Not even once
>>331444453
Oblivions quests are still better and more varied.
What does branching paths have to do with anything? Is Walking Dead your favorite game by that standard?
>>331444453
>"Beyond the beef"
I don't even care about what you're trying to argue (anybody who says Oblivion has "shit" quests hasn't played it, period) but why do New Vegasfags always default to this shitty quest? It's like, one of the only quests in the game that has this level of complexity and even then Fallout 3 BTFO frequently in terms of alternative paths etc. Does that mean Fallout 3 is better/has superior quests?
Nope.
>>331445110
There is no goalpost shifting. I made my point clear and you are unable to respond to my arguments in a civilised fashion.
If you think an RPG does not need stats/skills and that it doesn't need to reference these tools of character definition in-game, then it doesn't surprise me that you think Bethesda made good games, because they've been gotten rid of these RPG elements one after another in their games.
Linking to metacritic isn't going to prove a point if you fail in your argument.
>>331445236
It's not just about branching paths. Refer to >>331444770.
Branches are necessary to give the player room to define his character, but it also takes meaningful choices as well as stats and skill checks for a good quest.
If anything - and that's the point of lots of people who consider Oblivion quests good - Oblivion had well-written quests. But mechanically, they're nothing special. And I'd argue that they don't make good use of the medium, since they barely referenec skills/stats. This is of course intended, because if they do, then they'd lock out players from certain type of content because they didn't have the necessary skills, yet they wanted their game to be as casual and accessible as possible, allowing players to see everything in a single run through the game.
>>331445563
>I don't even care about what you're trying to argue (anybody who says Oblivion has "shit" quests hasn't played it, period) but why do New Vegasfags always default to this shitty quest?
It's a pretty good quest and the only one I have a flowchart in image form of. I'll look for another one at some point.
However, Beyond the Beef is definitely a great designed quest which essentially does everything "right" so it's a good example of what I like to see in a quest in an RPG.
>Fallout 3 BTFO frequently in terms of alternative paths etc. Does that mean Fallout 3 is better/has superior quests?
No. Refer to >>331444770 and >>331445071. Fallout 3 has certainly improved in terms of branches in comparison with Oblivion - and it's definitely a better RPG than Oblivion - but it's still weaker than NV. Branches alone don't make a good quest. It takes meaningful choice, stats/skill checks, ideally also multiple outcomes that are met with coherent consequences.
>>331445659
>There is no goalpost shifting. I made my point clear
See: >>331438150
Your very first post in the prior thread (of the same name) was that "branching paths=/=quality quests". Arguing that nonsense alone was pointless (because Oblivions quests do have alternating paths, you yourself acknowledged this only to move the goalposts again by saying "w-well not all of them!") so I simply got a Fallout 3 quest that completely blew the fuck out of your one which forced you to move the goalposts yet again into "b-but t-there's barely any stat usage in the quests!" territory.
Hilarious really, but what do you expect from Obshittian shills. They have to make up for their laughable incompetent developer that can't make good games to save themselves so I don't really mind this time waste.
Stay mad friendo.
>>331444453
My god I hated that quest. So fucking buggy and convoluted. Had to start it thrice from the beginning to be able to finish it because of how easily it can break.
New Vegas.
>>331443927
Two worlds had some neat quests. That game's silliness made it great for me
Oblivion was pretty GOAT though, I just HATED how you leveled up and needing to min/max or be UP
>>331445972
>However, Beyond the Beef is definitely a great designed quest which essentially does everything "right" so it's a good example of what I like to see in a quest in an RPG.
What you like exactly. I prefer the Whodunit questline from Oblivion infinitely more. Your whole argument is flawed to begin with, you're implying branching narratives are what make good quests and I flat out disagree. New Vegs's quests for the most part were boring outside of the odd few whereas the vast majoritty of quests in Oblivion felt unique and a true joy to partake in.
Saying Oblivion had "shit quests" is nothing more than the exhausted jaded /v/fag hyperbole that exists purely to go against the grain. You're not a special snowflake anon, you're just an autistic fag.
World of Warcraft
>>331443927
Gothic II
>>331446365
Not even the best Gameworks Engine Fallout game relative to quests.
>>331443927
better than this dumbed down shit? any good RPG ever?
>>331446524
>Fallout 3 is better meme
/fog/ is leaking again.
>>331443927___NOTMorrowind.
>>331446140
That was in relation to Oblivion, not in relation to Fallout 3. Oblivion already fails at the branching aspect.
>Oblivions quests do have alternating paths
The vast majority don't. In fact, I only remember that quest with the paranoid Bosmer to be branching. The vast majority of them railroad you into static environmental triggers with no choice involved.
>I simply got a Fallout 3 quest that completely blew the fuck out
No, you got told in terms of Oblivion quests being shit, so instead of providing me with an Oblivion quest of that sort of complexity - which you couldn't because it doesn't exist - you shifted your own goalposts to Fallout 3, thinking to be able to blow me out by showing me a slightly branched fetch-quest. And then when I responded in >>331445659 and >>331445972 that branching isn't the only aspect of note, you got told again.
That's where we are now.
Do you have anything in response left? Do you want to get told further?
>>331443927
Gothic I
>that one autistic Obsidian shill
Literally every thread that talks about RPGs you insufferable autists always brand your ugly noses. Regardless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JD_xuwpEno
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0g0wWuI9k0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OS76vUhdak&list=PL70F3814168F3B0AB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dxp7pme1nM&list=PL0D57A20D079B767A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMy8iMXqVKU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggWP9PDEJuQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYqHuoLH1j8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jae8nZQB9xI&list=PLC4A11E6E91EE3EAB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW150XH1YCk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0SQqI-YpN4
Throw in the GOAT OST (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpJEg6MTPzc) [
You can name any game you want but the fact remains, I guarantee when asked to provide examples you will fail to provide anything from your inferior games that come close to Oblivion.
Shit on Bethesda until you go blue in the face, nobody can argue this.
>>331443927
Morrowind
It may be an mmo but Runescape has the best quests ever, nothing can top Runescape's quests.
>>331446805
>only one person likes Obsidian
C'mon, m8.
Bullshit aside, the sidequests in Oblivion were probably the most memorable parts of that game. I didn't much care for the main quest, however.
>>331446409
>Your whole argument is flawed to begin with, you're implying branching narratives are what make good quests and I flat out disagree.
This is not a matter of "agree" or "disagree" it's a matter of liking the medium or not.
RPGs are about character definition. If you don't get the freedom to make certain decisions, then your character is essentially defined for you.
What's the difference between playing a game like Call of Duty, where you linearly run through corridors and shoot things in order to be rewarded with a cutscene and Oblivion quests, where you mostly run linearly after your quest-marker to the next trigger in order to beat someone up at the end? An RPG needs choice and it needs to reference player stats and skills.
Even the Whodunnit quest would be better had it actually referenced the player stats and skills. Yet a character with absolutely no skills at assassination related things can easily beat it. This makes it ultimately less rewarding than a quest where your character actually needs to be a master assassin to solve it.
>>331446805
Instead of reposting your copypasta you should be responding to >>331446746 because you got told hard.
>>331446746
> I only remember that quest with the paranoid Bosmer to be branching
1. Paranoid Bosmer
2. The ship that gets Hijacked (you can kill the bandits or persuade them to turn themselves in)
3. The Whodunit Questline (how you tackle it, you can kill them all silently or get them to kill each other off) that ironically has more complexity than every New Vegas quest due to each character having pre set notions on each other host and ways that you can manipulate them or straight up kill them.
3. The Arena questline that has you tell the orc about his vampirism causing him to not fight you in battle
4. Pretty much every Dark Brotherhood quest has alternating methods to killing the target, each with their own rewards/bonuses
5. Helping a strange man reconcile with his long lost twin brother
Right off the top of my head. Not even including the Skingrad Wood Elf, the stolen painting at Chorrol (that can have you completely fuck up the quest and accuse the wrong person) etc.
Stop shitposting any time Obshitter
>>331444580
>random fallout 3 quest
Moira's questline was a total outlier in terms of its length and relative depth, and was still terrible. I really cannot understand anyone who enjoyed it.
>>331447264
What's there to respond to. What autistic faggot pushing his defenition of good quests as the standard?
Come back with visual evidence instead of meaningless flow charts that even make Fallout 3 look like it has "depth".
>>331447374
>ira's questline was a total outlier in terms of its length and relative depth, and was still terrible. I really cannot understand anyone who enjoyed it.
I think that's the point that he's making. Branching paths don't make enjoyable quests, hence why Oblivions "basic quests" are fucking fantastic and fun as fuck regardless of their linearity (that even then is being exaggerated as >>331447272 is saying)
>>331446926
Excuse me anon, I need 5 flowers to make potions for the Imperial Cult. Get to it. And when you return, I will need 5 of this seed to make something else. But I'll tell about it then.
<insert copy pasted dialogue here>
>>331447272
Most of them have two possible outcomes and none of them permanently affect the world around you. In NV the solutions actually affect how the factions see you. None of them involves stats/skills sufficiently, because Oblivion was a casualised pieace of shit game, deliverately made for casuals such as yourself who couldn't face not being able to solve a certain quest because they were lacking the stats or skills. The result is that you can become arena champion at level 2 and that you can easily solve the assassination quests despite sucking at anything assassination related. In NV pretty much any quest as AT LEAST two outcomes and these are usually reached by applying your stats/skills in a meaningful way while at the same time making moral choices - also the way you solve things is met by coherent consequences in the way that the world around you reacts, most importantly the factions.
You just got told again. It's not getting better.
>>331445236
>Oblivions quests are still better and more varied.
Not really. You just remember standout quests while most of them were shit and didn't even utilize Radiant AI in any meaningful way. New Vegas' quests in general were on entirely different level in comparison.
I want to replay oblivion. I only ever played it on 360 back in the day, I was gifted it on PC a long ass time ago.
What fixes the abhorrent level and scaling system
>>331447523
No, the point he's trying to make is that Fallout 3 is more complex than New Vegas because a random quest involves a certain degree of branching (still inferior to the NV quest that was posted).
This is mostly based on a misunderstanding on his side, thinking that branching was the only quality to judge quests by.
>>331447272
>>331446746
Why does it matter to you so much to you autistic faggots about which game/company has/makes the better quests?
A good quest doesn't necessarily involve branching narratives or alternate objectives. If the narrative itself, or the motivations are flawed, then it's a shit quest regardless of whether or not you're giving handjobs in a back alley or stuffing your fat faggot face with sweetrolls because you chose to jerk off into the stew at the start of the quest instead of shitting into it.
If the fucking quest stands out in your mind, then it's a good quest. It's all subjective you niggers.
>>331447919
>If the fucking quest stands out in your mind, then it's a good quest. It's all subjective you niggers.
I would say Oblivions quests are objectively at the very least interesting.
>>331447412
What do you mean by "visual evidence"?
The flowchart in >>331444580 does not make Fallout 3 look like it has depth and the reason for that was given in >>331444770 and >>331445071.
If you look at it, you immediately see how basic the branching is in comparison with >>331444453, where the branches are reached by applying stats and skills in a meaningful fashion.
What happened to Bethesda?
Recommend me some good mods
>>331447919
I'm not arguing in favour of a company, I'm arguing against people saying that Oblivion had good quests, because mechanically they were severely lacking.
Even if I were to accept that the quests in Oblivion were well written, they could have been infinitely better had they implemented proper skill/stats checks and more reactivity from the surrounding world.
In Oblivion, every side-quest line was essentially its own microcosm, completely separate from the rest of the world.
>>331448015
Not to the popped-collar brodude who picks up the latest NBA game each year.
I don't think Oblivion's quests are amazing, but a number of them certainly stand out in my mind when I look back on the hundreds of hours I poured into that game.
>>331448021
Visual evidence because the quest was a fucking chore to play. See: >>331446347
Using some flow chart to say "LOOK, THIS MICROSOFT PAINT TEXT PROVES HOW GOOD NEW VEGAS'S QUESTS ARE" to refute >>331446805 that gives actual videos of everything ranging from grand heists/assassinations (with huge twists) among a whole plethora of other fantastically written/varied/engaging side quests is as autistic as anybody could get.
Period.
>>331447523
>Branching paths don't make enjoyable quests
Not necessarily, I agree. But adding branches usually do improve them, regardless.
>Oblivions "basic quests" are fucking fantastic and fun as fuck regardless of their linearity
Linear quests can definitely be fun but Oblivion ones aren't something I would choose as an example. I've played and beaten it, and played a fair amount of the quests mentioned in the OP, and none of them were ever all that interesting or well written. I'd rather play a Final Fantasy sidequest than go through with a Bethesda quest, unfortunately. Even if they have good premises they usually execute them in the most boring way imaginable. Oblivion really isn't that good of a game, and should only really be played if you genuinely enjoy finding and installing mods, which is a minigame Bethesda has mastered.
>>331448278
>because mechanically they were severely lacking.
Not to me they weren't.
>that moment you realize you had been killing your own brothers during the DBH mission
>that murder mansion quest
>when you wake up on the boat that had been hijacked
>when you get tricked into going out to an island only to find out that it's a sick tournament of sorts where you need to survive to leave
>the whole shivering isles DLC
I don't know why you're so adament to convince us that Oblivions quests were great. You're really forcing this notion that "if there's no branching paths" (which Oblivion has) then it's bad for some reason which simply isn't the case hence why the quests get so much praise.
Just give it up, you're convincing nobody.
>>331448278
And for the better part I agree, but Oblivion's quests are still memorable and interesting, unlike Bethesda's more recent ventures. At least in my own mind.
This is coming from the faggot who defends Morrowind as having the best narrative in the Elder Scrolls series. Either game is preferable to the turd that was Skyrim and its mediocre quests..
Oblivion's quest are just fucking themepark that adds nothing to the world building. At least Skyrim has the balls to go back to it, reintroduce the repeatable quest, and there choices in it.
>>331448637
>OBLIVION IS GREAT BUT MORROWIND IS JUST AS GREAT!
Fuck off, faggot.
>>331448338
A visual film sequence is going to be linear. You couldn't depict all the things you're able to do in a well made quest in that sort of medium without resetting the video all the time - not to mention the combinatoric explosion that happens. A flowchart lists all the things you can do and exposes you to the true complexity. If you cannot read the mechanical quality from the flowchart then I cannot help you.
Also refer to >>331447146.
You haven't responded to
>What's the difference between playing a game like Call of Duty, where you linearly run through corridors and shoot things in order to be rewarded with a cutscene and Oblivion quests, where you mostly run linearly after your quest-marker to the next trigger in order to beat someone up at the end? An RPG needs choice and it needs to reference player stats and skills.
That's where Oblivion is lacking. If you think a video sequence - no matter how flashy - could do a well designed RPG quest justice, then you don't understand the medium.
oblivion had the quest equivalents to Rivet City, Republic of Dave, etc: crazy wacky epic quests that while they look cool or were fun to play, in the context of the world, they dont do anything for roleplaying
>>331448562
>Not to me they weren't.
To me they were.
What you're talking about is not characteristic of RPGs. You could have told the exact same stories in a Call of Duty game.
You're talking about plot, I'm talking about mechanics. Plot is debatable, mechanics are not.
The thing I loved about Oblivions quests was how nothing was as it seemed.
Take the first Fighters guild quest that has you investigate a case about "Rats in a basement" which instantly has you reminded about the first Morrowind fighter guild quest that had you mindlessly killing rats in a basement. You go there expecting to obviously engage in some boring shit only to get thrown a huge curveball and find out that the rats are the clients pets and COUGARS are the main threat. You then engage on a mini mystery that has you locate a hunter, track down a Cougar den and wipe it out only to find out that the problem hasn't been solved. You do more investigating and find out that a neighbour who hates rats has been placing raw meat outside of a small hole in the side of the house which has been leading the cougars there.
That's just one instance of Oblivions fantastic writing/quest design, a seemingly "by the book" quest turned into that. Not to mention the quests here >>331446805
Fuck Oblivion had some good quests. And that OST
>>331448773
Naw.
I prefer Morrowind. I also think Oblivion was a step down in terms of story and I also prefer New Vegas over 3.
Sorry that doesn't jive with your tastes m8.
>>331448562
Not him but the Dark Brotherhood guild was a fucking joke in Oblivion. They don't even act like a profession assassin group and they come off as incompetent clowns. They were too retarded to figure out that something was wrong or there was a betrayal. Thank god Skyrim went back to being more competent and living up Daggerfall's version of DB.
>>331448637
I agree when it comes to them being memorable - some of them at least; for example the Dark Brotherhood. However, I still maintain the position that mechanically they were nothing great. They could have been part of a Call of Duty game.
>skill/stats checks
Jesus christ what have we come to. Some autist actually wants to say this is a good thing.
>In Oblivion, every side-quest line was essentially its own microcosm
This is also such bullshit,and there's even a quest where you have to steal a mages staff from the mages guild when doing thieves guild questline. If you're already an archmage the quest says the mages guild hasn't released any information on the councils murder and of you becoming and archmage.
So if you did become an archmage you can just take the staff and put the gray foxes note in your own room. If not, you have to sneak in, violate the law and steal it from the former archmage Traven.
>That feel when people on /v/ shat on Oblivion for years because it wasn't Daggerfall and Morrowind
>That feel when they stopped shitting on it after Skyrim's release
>That feel when they will stop to shit on Skyrim when the new Elder Scrolls will be released
>>331449331
Naw.
>>331446926
>weapons: 19
Genuine question, how many of those weapons forced you into a different combat style and how much of it was purely stylistic difference?
>>331449185
>>331448773
>that one faggot trying to push Skyrim into this argument
>>331449303
This why the fuck should the game suddenly have skill check or stat check especially if I haven't specialized in that field. Thats just forcing you to play a specific way thank god that garbage mechanic was absent in Oblivion.
>/v/ likes Oblivion now
What happened?
I mean, I'm not complaining because I liked Oblivion too, but since when did you guys like it?
>>331449271
Mechanically, yeah. Though a number of them, like the DB Mansion mission, alllowed you to approach them in whatever way you wanted.
>>331449361
>Daggerfall babbies shat on Morrowind
>Morrowind babbies shat on Oblivion
>Oblivion babbies shat back on Morrowind when the nostalgia for how mediocre Morrowind actually is started to wear off.
Skyrim will never be in the discussion
>>331449303
>skill/stats checks
>Jesus christ what have we come to. Some autist actually wants to say this is a good thing.
It is a very good thing. Stats and skills are definitive elements of RPGs. It is a travesty that Bethesda has been getting rid of them more and more.
In Morrowind joining a faction would affect your disposition with them. In New Vegas if you solve a quest in a certain way you might permanently piss off some of the factions and completely ruin your relation with them.
That is what makes a world believable.
Oblivion feels like a sandbox with plastic toys, not like a believable world.
>>331449361
That's sort of a good thing. Critically analyzing games involves looking at both good and bad aspects. Right now that is almost impossible for Skyrim, so I'm looking forward to the time when it won't be fresh in people's mind anymore and we can look at it with less bias.
>>331449303
>>331449563
please be bait
>>331449601
Since always? There have been consistently more comfy Oblivion threads than any other scrolls game for around a year now
>>331449725
>In Morrowind joining a faction would affect your disposition with them
Are you retarded? What do you think happens in Oblivion get outta here.
>>331449572
>>331449361
I don't think you remember when Oblivion came out. There always were people who liked it and we've been debating for days.
Even in this thread there are plenty of people who don't like it, me included.
>>331449553
It very simple: Skyrim is what should have been instead of oblivion being a lotr ripoff. Instead of taking Morrowind and removing more attribute, they change the system. Instead of fucking the lore, they build around it. Instead of removing remove a traveling system, they reinstate it.
>>331449572
Probably their first RPG in their new xbox.
>>331449572
Just you wait, we will all love skyrim a while after the next scrolls game is released.
It's the cycle man.
>>331449725
>Stats and skills are definitive elements of RPGs
Both are in Oblivion and both get used in quests. Now stop shitposting to make up for 99% of New Vegas's quests to be uninteresting garbage that gets rekt by even the worst Fallout
>>331449563
Why don't you play Call of Duty instead. That's more your type of game.
>>331449572
It started about a year after Skyrim's release. Up till that point Skyrim enjoyed the "it's kind of shit, but at least it's no Oblivion" title.
>>331449871
None of the factions care about what you do. You can be the grandmaster of all factions.
>>331449913
Except Skyrim is a decent Elder Scroll based on vanilla and release date. Oblivion was a fucking mess in comparison and my god if the game didn't bug out or litter the street with potato people. If I have to rank the series by vanilla, it will be the following
Daggerfall >=Morrowind > Skyrim > Arena >>>>>>>>>>> Oblivion
>InbeforeMUHSHIVERINGISLE
All the elder scrolls game are fun, some are better than others, but they're all good games. Anyone who denies Skyrim being a good game has bad taste.
>>331450103
Objectively wrong
>isn't as casualized/boring as Skyrim
>isn't as unplayable/dated as Morrowind
It's literally the only Elder Scrolls that is semi playable vanilla.
>>331449949
>Both are in Oblivion and both get used in quests.
The whole game probably involves less skill checks than the quest in >>331444453.
>New Vegas's quests to be uninteresting garbage that gets rekt by even the worst Fallout
It's you again.
I though we had established that New Vegas had better designed quests than both Oblivion and Fallout 3 after you got told so badly in >>331447681 and didn't have anything left to reply.
>>331449806
I don't see a lot of critical analysis in this thread. I see a few butthurt Oblivion fanboys who tried to stir shit up and got burned.
Oblivion had already been dissected properly when it came out.
Skyrim too.
>>331450243
Anon, Morrowind was the first to casualized the game by releasing the game for the console but Oblivion take the cake by literally everything, from fast travelings to BIGEXPLOSION to copying a LotR landscape to the GPS arrow.
>>331450276
>still defaulting to this one inflated/broken quest
See >>331446524 for the average New vegas quests. Straight lines with zero branching narratives. It's as boring as it is shallow.
Stay mad
>>331450103
This.
>>331450243
>>331450549
>anime posting
>stay mad
>>>/out/
>>331450276
>I though we had established that New Vegas had better designed quests than both Oblivion and Fallout 3
The only thing we established is that you will move the goalposts until the argument isn't even close to what it originally was.
See: >>331446140
The original point/statement you made was "Branching Paths=/=quality quests". You got BTFO and moved the goalposts twice to prove your point. I merely got bored with your damage control / essays when All I needed was a 10 second paint job to debunk your whole claim.
Stay mad friendo
>>331449998
Also the turning point for Morrowind criticism was not long after that, during that few summer months back in something like 2013 when a lot of anons suddenly decided to play Daggerfall "together", and had their own threads separate from the pretty much constant Morrowind circlejerk and Skyrim hate threads. During this time Daggerfall threads had the highest quality out of the three, since they almost entirely focused on gameplay discussion.
>>331450475
>I don't see a lot of critical analysis in this thread.
Of course not, any kind of critical analysis is completely ignored because that's just how fanboys work.
Tell a Morrowind fanboy their quests and npcs are shallow and provide real examples, and they will refuse to argument, either answering in greentext, meme reaction images or just plain not answereing at all.
Tell an Oblivion fanboy... really, you get the idea.
>>331450507
>from fast travelings to BIGEXPLOSION to copying a LotR landscape to the GPS arrow.
Which Skyrim also has on top of a plethora of other issues. What's your point?
>>331450549
What you're missing is that the side-quests in New Vegas are actual side-quests. Minor things you do on the way, while side-quests in Fallout 3 are considered to be actual content since the main quest is so short.
If you compared the main quest and related quests, which is where the real meat of NV is, then you'd immediately notice the difference in quality.
The point remains: Fallout 3 can't compare.
It's lacking in choice, it's lacking in skills/stats/perks checks and it's lacking in reactivity.
Enjoy being told yet again.
>>331450475
Pic related, it's my current character (I put short sword in my main skills instead of Minor skills instead of Alchemy by mistake, only realized 4 hours into the game.), so far i'm more than capable enough and have clearly been tyring to enjoy the game but it's just boring.
I'm playing it just as I did oblivion/Skyrim/daggerfall. I look up any must have skills or skills to ignore (like I did with the swimming stat in Deus Ex) then go on my way. I happened upon the Fighters guild, do a few quests and thought "Woah, I like how there's no quest markers". 8 fetch quests later I think "fuck this, i'll try out the mages guild". 4 "fetch quests later" I think, fuck this, i'll go explore some more. 20 Cliff racers later that I still miss frequently despite having decent stats for my level and managing my stamina/fatigue efficiently I think, fuck this, I'll go do some random quests. 11 generic NPCs that all say the same shit with HYPERLINKS later I get a random quest. Try it out. It's another fetch quests.
What then? I try out some magic, make a basic levitate spell, buy some spells etc and fiddle around with it. Think to myself "Wew, that's pretty cool, still worse than Daggerfall in terms of freedom/depth but it's decent". Drop the game after a total of 10-15 hours and never touch it again.
The game is the definition of nostalgia faggotry. It does NOTHING better than the other Elder Scrolls. Nothing. "MUH INTERESTING WORLD". Shivering Isles did it better.
Kill yourselves you fedora tipping nostalgia autists. You faggots talk about "muh dumbing down of the genre" when Morrowind was the biggest dumbed down Elder Scrolls game relative to its predecessor.
Ask me for any more evidence if i've played this game. Before anybody says "underage fag" or some meme defualt defensive response. My favorite RPG is VtMB and that game arguably has one of the worst combat systems in any RPG to date. The combat is the least of Morrowinds problems.
>>331450878
Skyrim return the travel service, I don't recall any BIGEXPLOSION to wow me, and Skyrim is combination of dead ice and forested tundra, unlike a junglized-Cyrodiil which was actually a pasture and a forest.
>>331451057
>moves the goalposts yet again
See: >>331446524
to ez
>>331450821
Pretty much.
Morrowind is far from perfect, but it's ahead of Oblivion in certain regards. All I see from Oblivion fanboys is how great the writing in quests like the Dark Brotherhood quest-line was. But mechanically, you could have put the exact same thing in a Call of Duty game. It did nothing to recognise that the player was playing an RPG, e.g. by referencing his stats or skills.
Literally the only quests I remember from Oblivion were the Sheogorath DLC quests and the absolutely terrible Oblivion gate quests.
>>331451254
What goalposts am I moving? You're the one who's setting goalposts on his own terms and you get told despite doing that.
Show me a quest in Oblivion or Fallout 3 that can compare to Beyond the Beef.
You couldn't do so. All you had was >>331444580, and you got destroyed badly in >>331444770 and >>331445071.
Where is your argument? Do you even have one?
Morrowind questing was pretty good, my only issue was the encyclopedia descriptions for topics that unimportant npcs had. If they weren't a guild/storyline npc it was all the same for the region they were in.
>>331451370
>the absolutely terrible Oblivion gate quests.
Jesus don't remind me.
I cannot believe how anyone could seriously argue that Oblivion had good quests. What a piece of shit game.
>>331451462
Yes, Morrowind had a LOT of copy pasted content. Literally copied and pasted. It composed the majority of the dialogue for most npcs, save for a few. Which is why NPCs in Morrowind are shallow, they have nothing going for them, barely any personality at all for the majority.
>>331451261
>the New Vegas fag
>by referencing his stats or skills.
Why do you continue to lie?
>"You've got a bounce to your step"
>"You look horribly ill" (vampirism)
>"The hero of Kvatch!"
>etc
You've been caught lying numerous times now. Why are you so adament to get people to stop liking Oblivions quests? They are objectively great, mechanical depth or not doesn't make New vegas's quests any less boring than they currently are. By your definition Fallout 4 has some goat quests because pretty much everyone has some form of stat involved with them (Intimidation, Charisma, speech checks etc).
>>331451261
>by referencing his stats or skills.
To be fair Morrowind only had stat checks in the form of faction advancement. Better than nothing, but it's not that much. Daggerfall's reputation system made more sense for factions, albeit it's not a system that would work with a fixed faction questline in a game where failing quests is literally impossible.
>>331449473
There were only really three styles: one handed with shield, two handed, and ranged. And the different between using a shield or not was much less than in Oblivion and Skyrim. They were pretty much just there for variety, which isn't that much of a bad thing, but it isn't much of a great thing either. If anyone plays Morrowind for the combat however, even if there were many different styles, they're fucking insane.
>>331451548
I don't particularly favor either of those, but honestly absolutely anything is better than Oblivion's Main Quest. I do think that Oblivion had better quests aside from that though. I mean, as much as the fanboys ignored it, >>331447532 is actually a thing.
>>331445362
How are your legs, Anon?
>>331451459
>You're the one who's setting goalposts
Nope, See: >>331438150 →
Your very first post in the prior thread (of the same name) was that "branching paths=/=quality quests". Arguing that nonsense alone was pointless (because Oblivions quests do have alternating paths, you yourself acknowledged this only to move the goalposts again by saying "w-well not all of them!") so I simply got a Fallout 3 quest that completely blew the fuck out of your one which forced you to move the goalposts yet again into "b-but t-there's barely any stat usage in the quests!" territory.
Hilarious really, but what do you expect from Obshittian shills. They have to make up for their laughable incompetent developer that can't make good games to save themselves so I don't really mind this time waste.
Stay mad friendo.
>>331445110
>Ratings
Daggerfall = Best/Purest RPG experience with the most mechanical depth and freedom
Skyrim = Best Visuals/Combat
Oblivion = Best Quests/OST/DLC
Morrowind = ??????
>>331451793
>>331451254
>>331451057
>>331450549
Are you guys going to kiss or what?
>>331451635
Are you retarded? Do you think
>"You've got a bounce to your step"
>"You look horribly ill" (vampirism)
>"The hero of Kvatch!"
>etc
referenced stats or skills?
Not to mention that these are remarks by NPCs, these are not skill or stats checks in dialogue for the purpose of solving a quest.
I have never been lying, you are just a big retard who has no idea what he's talking about.
>They are objectively great, mechanical depth or not doesn't make New vegas's quests any less boring than they currently are.
No, they are not objectively great and I've told you why: they're mechanically bland. You can play them a million times and they will always play out the same, simply because the way they're solved and their outcome does not depend on the type of character you're playing.
>Fallout 4 has some goat quests
I haven't played Fallout 4, but if Fallout 4 involves stats and skills (I very much doubt that Bethesda is doing a good job here because they haven't done so in the past), then Fallout 4 is more advanced than Oblivion - just like Fallout 3 is more advanced than Oblivion, while still being inferior to NV.
>>331450549
>average new vegas quests are straight lines with no branching narratives
wew being this wrong
Doesn't Fallout 3 have skill and perk checks?
>>331444148
Knights of the Nine was boring though, the only fun part was wearing the armor after you're done with the fucking thing and feeling like a true Paladin.
Don't remember the dream world
Living painting was interesting, but it wasn't really fun. Just kill 3 trolls and be done with it.
Dark Brotherhood questline was fantastic
Theives Guild questline was worse than Brotherhood's but still fun with the last mission.
Haunted Anvil house was good
Arena questline was fairly dumb and I hated the Champion's quest.
Shivering Isles is absolutely outstanding and Paranoia was great.
Overall they really just stand out because they're creative quests design wise, but not really interesting in terms of interaction or gameplay.
Morrowind was mediocre. I can't believe I fell for that meme. How the fuck can you jaded autists shit on Fallout 4 for its dialogue and then in the same breath praise Morrowinds "Yes/No" Dialogue system? What does Morrowind even do correctly?
>NPCs are fucking tour guides with MOTHERFUCKING HYPERLINKS
>99% of the quests are fetch quest trash. Just look at Oblivions first Fighters guild quest compared to Morrowinds >>331449135
>Combat is an abomination
>Overall build variety/complexity is decent I guess but still inferior to Daggerfall
>The world looks unique until you spend 10 minutes in it and realize that it's the same ugly brownshit throughout 99% of the land
Holy fuck, this game got nothing right. If this isn't Nostalgia faggotry then I don't know what is. Daggerfall >> Oblivion > Skyrim >>>>>>>> Dogshit >>>>>>>> Morrowind
>>331452023
Morrowind = Best Writing/Lore/Immersion
Arena = ???????
>This whole fucking thread
Seriously, what's with the NV fags right now?
>muh skill checks
>muh permanent changes to the world
>much branching paths
NV is a great game, I won't deny that
But all these reasons which are given why the quests are good are nonsense for the most part
What makes quests good is mostly the story
NV did this pretty well, and the other things are what make the quests of NV great
But the quests in Oblivion had great stories, and at times great extras
>>331451793
Lol this. That guy feels desperate now repeating the same thing over and over again....
>>331452353
I disagree with combat being an abomination. I think it has the best combat out of all the games I played, which excludes Daggerfall. But then again, I grew up playing D&D.
I do agree with everything else though, aside from the stupid exaggeration of made up numbers of 99%.
>>331452134
>referenced stats or skills?
Yes? Are you fucking retarded?
>Have high athletic/acrobatic skill
>NPCs dynamically comment on it
That is the definition of what you said you flaming faggot.
> these are not skill or stats checks in dialogue for the purpose of solving a quest.
Holy shit, do you ever NOT shift the goalposts? You never mentioned quests in the comment I replied to you fucking autistic Obsidianshill. Holy shit, this dude literally gets caught lying every damn time. Have you even played Oblivion or even Fallout New Vegas? Go on, post the Beyond the Queef flow chart one more time, it won't change New Vegas having a shittier score than Fallout 4 of all games.
>>331452428
>Immersion
What's there to be immersed in? The signpost NPC's who converse with you in fucking encyclopedias?
>>331452353
BTFO
T
F
O
>>331451793
I've already responded to you in >>331446746 and you got told there.
Since you're obviously too stupid to get why you've been gotten told I'm going to explain it to you: there's a difference between a necessary and a sufficient criterion. If you underwent any sort of higher education you'd know this.
I told you why Oblivion was lacking and you assumed that the elements Oblivion was lacking were sufficient for making good quests.
Then I told you in >>331444770 and >>331445071 how you were wrong in assuming so, since for a good quest it takes more than that.
Realising that you got told badly you resorted to telling me that I had moved goalposts, unable to realise what a fool you were making of yourself, showing everyone that you are unable to think and reason logically.
Not that I'm surprised, since only a simply mind like yourself would be entertained by shitty games like Oblivion.
>>331451747
Thank you for elaborating, anon. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with aesthetic variety either, especially not in a series as focused on giving you a wide selection of tools for play pretend as TES. Still it is a weird thing to bring up when comparing the games, when it was mainly collecting changes that directly concerned gameplay.
Witcher 1-3 anyone?
>>331452428
>Best Writing
"Go kill 'x' rats!"
"You're the Chosen one!"
"Do you want directions to THE FIGHTERS GUILD? It's west of in the lower regions of VIVEC. Is there any RUMORS you would like me to tell you? How about SECRETS?"
Sure thing buddy
>lore/immersion
Subjective meme reasons with the sole purpose of being padding to make up for your shit game
Hello friends.
What's the way to go to play Daggerfall?
Do I need DOS box or something?
>>331452578
We were talking about referencing skills and stats in the context of quests, which is what the thread is about you massive faggot. What else would we be talking about? Not to mention that I brought it first up in the context of the Beyond the Beef quest, and if you looked at the examples you'd immediately see what is meant by that.
>>331452837
What about them?
>>331452720
Nope, See: >>331438150
Your very first post in the prior thread (of the same name) was that "branching paths=/=quality quests". Arguing that nonsense alone was pointless (because Oblivions quests do have alternating paths, you yourself acknowledged this only to move the goalposts again by saying "w-well not all of them!") so I simply got a Fallout 3 quest that completely blew the fuck out of your one which forced you to move the goalposts yet again into "b-but t-there's barely any stat usage in the quests!" territory.
Hilarious really, but what do you expect from Obshittian shills. They have to make up for their laughable incompetent developer that can't make good games to save themselves so I don't really mind this time waste.
Stay mad friendo. You got told.Britfag
>>331452428
>Best Writing
>>331447532
>>331452428
>Morrowind = Best Immersion
Tell that to my Imperial agent Khajiit Archcanon of the ALMSIVI Temple.
>>331452240
Both 3 and vegas do. But as I recall, 3 had a percentage success and vegas just shows you how much you have/need [eg. Barter 12/50].
>>331452462
I keked as you tried to brush off the most important parts of a quest.
New Vegas does all those things and adds a decently engaging story.
The linear story focused style that Bethesda does only works in DLC size content. Not for a whole game.
>>331452881
by Preordering the falloutâ„¢ 4 season pass and then typing "Daggerfall win X XY bit" on google
>>331452462
>But all these reasons which are given why the quests are good are nonsense for the most part
Exactly I can't believe what I'm hearing in this thread. Like If a quest has a friggin skillcheck,then its good, all done, doesn't need anything else, masterpiece.
Even if it's the shittiest most basic questline you can find anywhere else.
>>331453078
Looks like I've argued you into a corner if you can't do anything but repeat yourself now.
It's always a pleasure putting retards in their place. Have a nice day.
>>331452881
Here you go:
http://wiwiki.wiwiland.net/index.php?title=Daggerfall_:_DaggerfallSetup_EN
Have fun.
>>331452916
Don't even try the "there was a presetcontext to my post" because the dude you were replying to said nothing about quest givers mentioning skills (see: >>331450821).
Your post (see: >>331451261) didn't mention quest givers either, you made another blanket lie. Go ahead, move the goalposts some more faget. This is literally 2ez
>>331453078
>>331452720
To be honest you both sound like huge faggots flinging shit at each other
>>331453078
Notice the pattern with Bioware. They don't make good games anymore. Why? Making the same mistakes as Bethesda.
>>331453296
You haven't done anything. You made a statement that I blew the fuck out instantly only to move the goalposts. The moment the goalposts weremoved, your argument was over. Get told.>tfw watching you go through mental gymnasts has genuinely been amusing
>>331453307
That may as well be the case, but my argument is logically sound, which is why the Obliviontard got told.
>>331443927
Kusoge Tamage Pantsuquest V
>>331452462
Thank you.
The whole fact that people here are over numerous bethesda games is just fucking hilarious.
It's like all sides are fighting with a different dead horse, since every single fame is fucked up and flawed in it's own way.
>>331453304
The fact that you've been misunderstanding what the other has been saying doesn't make the other "shift goalpost" when you get corrected in your retarded assumption.
This discussion is in fact too easy because you have nothing to say in reply. You merely get told post after post. Refusing to admit it doesn't change this.
>>331453202
that's not what people are saying. New vegas has decent to good writing on most quests as well as multiple options to complete many quests; finally, many choices leave a permanent mark on the world. Roll all that up and it's a really great roleplaying experience
in an RPG
>>331453202
It's a New Vegas fag, his initial argument wasn't about skill checks, he just got pushed into that argument after getting BTFO by his own claims (see: >>331453078 & >>331444580)
Here's a TL;DR
>Talks about how Oblivions quest are shit (le /v/ hyperbole) because they only have one outcome and linear ways to reach said outcome (see his first post >>331438150) which alone are flat out lies
>I then say by that definition then Fallout 3 has GOAT quests because Fallout 3 stomps New Vegas on average in terms of branching paths)
>He then moves the goalposts and says "b-but something something skill checks!"
It's been a wild ride tbqh but you know how Obsidian shills are.
>>331453298
Thank you. I'll check this out.
>>331453454
Refer to >>331453645.
Also, I can only recommend to read >>331452720 again and educate yourself a little; that way you might not get told as easily in future debates.
>>331453456
What argument? You both are just flinging shit at each other and posting smug anime girls, what sort of cohesive argument did you manage to construct?
>>331453456
I don't know anon, the only one who looks to be getting told is you. He called out the fact that you moved the goalposts on top of being caught on your bullshit.
>>331451261
>>331450069
Wow the hypocrisy. This guy probably didn't play Morrowind nor Oblivion.
>>331453815
Don't forget to read the manual before starting the game.
>>331453827
There's nothing to see. Your very first post was >>331438150 and you mentioned nothing about skill checks. All you said was "single solution and single outcome" was why you thought Oblivions quests sucked, hence my sitting you the fuck down with Fallout 3.
There's literally nothing more to it, just damage control on your part.
>>331453776
You've been told in >>331452720.
>Talks about how Oblivions quest are shit (le /v/ hyperbole) because they only have one outcome and linear ways to reach said outcome
That is exactly your lack of reasoning ability.
The fact that Oblivion is bad because they are too linear and lack reactivity does not mean that a lack of linearity and added reactivity is the only thing required to make a good quest. That is the exact difference between a necessary and a sufficient criterion I was telling you about.
You're flaunting your lack of intelligence in everyone's face.
>>331454096
BTFO
T
F
O
>>331454096
Refer to >>331454163. This is not damage control, it's telling you how to make a proper argument.
Your whole reasoning is based on a fallacy. A lack of logical reasoning skills and plain intelligence.
>>331444580
>wasteland survival guide is given as three seperate quests
oops
>>331453925
No, refer to >>331452720; if you're unable to understand this, then I can't help you.
>>331452353
>nobody responded to this
Kek, Morrowbabbies on suicide watch
>>331454269
>>331454163
>all these instant paragraphs that still don't detract from your blatant damage control/shifting of goalposts
Not even him but pic related, it's your face right now
>>331453881
The argument is that Oblivion's quests were lacking in many regards. One of them was a lack of choice and reactivity.
The other guy then assumed that lack of choice and reactivity was the only element required to make a quest good, and that's essentially how this whole debate started. A lack of reasoning ability on his side, in the fallacious assumption that this was the only aspect of quality in evaluating quests in RPGs.
>>331452578
>shittier score
Call of duty confirmed best game
>>331454594
Tell me where I'm wrong in my reasoning in >>331452720.
>>331454357
>>331454269
Whatever helps you sleep at night anon but judging by your quick succession responses and instant "b-but" and "w-well" arguments, I think deep down you know you fucked up.
>>331443927
Pretty much all of them.
>>331452837
This desu.
>people are defending fallout 3 and shitting on New Vegas
what happened to this place
>>331454743
So essentially you admit that you cannot disprove my argument but "deep down" I'm somehow wrong even though I'm factually right?
>>331454640
>has to compare games from a totally different genre, let alone franchise
So this is the Vegasfags final form.
>>331454628
Choice and reactivity isn't necessary to make a good quest though, it certainly is nice though. Not required though. What else was lacking?
>>331454816
It's just a singular shitposter in this thread.
I think the lesson we can take from this thread is that nobody seriously believes that Oblivion and Fallout 3 were actually good RPGs.
>>331454816
Skillchecks you hear? A new meme. I love /v/
>>331454846
Nah, you're a fag, you're arguing that popularity is linked to quality, and garbage like call of duty and gone home getting high scores proves that scores don't mean fuck all when talking about a games quality.
>>331454816
The 360 generation grew up
Fallout 3 was a lot of people's first Fallout game therefore to them it is the best in the series and completely infallible and all other sequels are shit compared to it.
>>331443927
>Fallout NV
>Skyrim
>Morrowind
>Fallout 4
>Fallout 3
>TES Arena
>>331454816
It's turn wrong
>>331454883
I disagree.
Choice and reactivity IS necessary to make a good quest. Besides choice and reactivity you also need to reference the character stats and skills though - you're playing an RPG after all.
>>331454816
I don't think NV is that great but it's obviously just samefagging.
>>331454743
The proper answer is that Bethesda has never made a single bad game or decision.
Todd Howard is a genius. I would love to be best friends with him.
I am not Todd Howard BTW
>>331454732
What reasoning, you threw in some insults about education. dropped some more "you got told" memes and then went about your way.
Explain to me how what you did wasn't a goalpost shift. I'm genuinely curious to see the mental framework of somegoing undergoing continuous damage control.
This was your original post, >>331438150, yes? Ok, so where in it did you say anything about skill checks :^)?
Dis otta be good.
>>331455090
KeK don't make me skillcheck you anon.
>>331454816
Nobody actually likes New Vegas
>>331453992
I didn't understand how to swing the sword. I died at the first rat.
These controls caught me way off guard.
>>331454969
I never understood why. Game had so many flaws coming out. First few patches fucked up VATS calculation speed, NPCs respawned on top of their corpse causing them to collectively move toward places with friendly NPCs, CTDs up the ass, areas locking in level based off the first time you entered them, companions instantly dying from auto resolve, and the general bullet sponge combat, especially when Broken Steel introduced the Albino Radscorpion, Ghoul Reaver, and Supermutant Overlords.
I figured the plot would be shit being a Bethesda game, but everything else was what kept any surprise from me when 4 turned out to be what it was.
>>331455437
You can switch to mouse aiming
>>331454816
One guy is being delusional beyond help about NV
Other's use Fallout 3 as an example to point out his fallacies to spite him
>>331455560
that is me! The NVfag is on suicide watch
>>331443927
Witcher 3, New Vegas
>>331444148
>>the dreamworld where you got nothing but a torch and some clothes to cover you with
What quest was that? Also Knights of the Knife was bland as fuck, nothing praiseworthy same with the arena questline.
>>331455092
>where in it did you say anything about skill checks
I didn't need to, because the assumption that choice and reactivity were the sufficient criteria for a good quest is a logically fallacious reasoning on your side.
Oblivion is most prominently lacking when it comes to this, which is why I listed only that - but what exactly tells you that this is the only thing Oblivion's quests are lacking?
Nothing, does.
And that's why your whole "moving goalposts" argument is flawed.
Oblivion is lacking in lots of ways. The quests are shit due to lacking choice and reactivity - but they're of course also lacking skills and stats checks. The rest of the game isn't much better. Level scaling completely ruined immersion. Randomly generated loot that was also level scaled completely ruined exploration since you could be certain to never find anything remarkable. Oblivion gates were some of the worst designed content to be found in a game ever. The quest compass and fast travel without in-game consequence put exploration from the game itself to the meta-game. The quest-lines were too far apart from each other and not interwoven well with the main plot; the guilds literally not giving a shit about the demon invasion. The AI was complete shit, with a crappy system in regards to steal and stealing. The dialogue system was even worse - especially the speechcraft mini-game.
Oblivion is a shitty game and only a faggot would argue otherwise, because Oblivion was his first RPG on his XBOX.
>>331455043
You can disagree all you want, but there are plenty of elements in quest design that are essential for making a good quest. Choice and reactivity is a small part of quest design that even a game like Oblivion does feature in it.
The Legend of the Star and the Old World Blues X-8 and Home Module quests are some of my favorite in New Vegas, but they really have nothing to do with choice or reactivity but rather small bits of storytelling and interesting interactions with others.
>>331454816
As >>331455560 said. I loved New Vegas, i'm just pissing off the other shitter who brought the hyperbole about Oblivions quests into this thread as well as the last one. I do prefer Oblivions quests to New Vegas thought but Wouldn't really argue people preferring New Vegas's quests.
I just think his argument is really retarded considering by his definition then Fallout 4/Fallout 3s quests have depth to them, depth that matches/overtakes New Vegas on average and this somehow makes Fallout 3/4s quests better than New Vegas. Something I personally disagree wtih
>>331455757
Old World Blues was shit. In general, the DLC to NV was crappy.
>>331455892
Oblivion's quests being bad is not a hyperbole, it's fact.
They're mechanically bad.
Even if you like them in terms of writing, it doesn't change that they could be place of Call of Duty with only minor changes to Call of Duty's mechanics - simply because they barely even recognise that they're part of an RPG.
>The quests are shit due to lacking choice and reactivity
and i stopped reading there...what is up with this guy?
>>331455741
Are you this oblivious to what people are telling you?
You moved your goal points when you started about why Oblivion's quest were shit
You started about that Oblivion's quests weren't complex and lacked multiple options
When people started about that some Oblivion quests had that level of multiple options, and even Fallout 3 had some quests you were you had that many options
Then you started talking about Skill Checks
That right there, is moving your goalposts
>>331455892
nigger how in the fuck can you make any argument for fallout 4
i mean fallout 3 had a couple of long quests that, while had absolutely no impact on anything other than within the confined of the quest, had branching paths and were long
but fallout 4 has fucking nothing at all
>>331455757
>plenty of elements in quest design that are essential for making a good quest
What are these elements then?
How are they characteristic of the RPG genre?
>>331456020
How can someone like them in terms of writing? The writing is shit.
>>331455741
>I didn't need to
Stopped reading. I'm legit smirking right now. Just call it quits bro, you're an anonymous poster, you've got nothing to lose if you simply turn away now. Just slunk back into anonymity m8, it's ok. This defeat will only sting for a few weeks.
>>331456123
Exactly my point. But the New Vegas's fags argument single handedly makes that argument possible for Fallout 4, hence why he's getting laughed at in this thread
>>331456020
>Even if you like them in terms of writing, it doesn't change that they could be place of Call of Duty with only minor changes to Call of Duty's mechanics - simply because they barely even recognise that they're part of an RPG.
You keep repeating that, and it doesn't even make any sense. How is that any different from "fetch me 5 flowers" in Morrowind?
>>331456020
>21:26:30
>>331456128
>21:27:35
He's not even trying anymore
>>331443927
>VTMB
>Witcher
>PS:T
>DE and DE:HR
>FO:NV
Oblivion's quests are overrated honestly. People dicksuck stuff like the painting world and the survival island, but on replay these quests are extremely bland.
>go in painting, kill three trolls, pick up the brush, quest done
>go to island, kill the bandits for the keys, leave the arena, kill the guy, quest done
Whodunnit is probably the highlight of the game in terms of quests. That and following the clues to find the hidden fortress.
>>331456376
but DUUUUUDE. YOU HAVE SO MANY OPTIONS TO GET THOSE FLOWERS
>GO AND PICK THEM
>GO AND BUY THEM
>GO AND STEAL THEM
HOLY SHIT BRO, THAT QUEST IS CONFIRMED BEST QUEST IN WHOLE OF MORROWIND, HOLY SHIT
>>331456020
>They're mechanically bad.
Not enough skill checks amrite?
>>331456059
What you are too fucking stupid to understand is that me mentioning that Oblivion's quests were lacking in a certain regard does NOT imply that these elements are sufficient criteria to making a good quest.
If a lack of choice and reactivity is sufficient for not being a good quest, then I only need to list a lack of choice and reactivity.
!X => !Z is equivalent to Z => X, but it does not tell you that there might also be a Y involved where (X AND Y) => Z.
>>331456464
>calls quests extremely bland
>in the same breath he shill the Witchers quests
>>331456464
It doesn't help that everything is scaled to you so there is no thought on encounter design or difficulty in quest design since you can beat the game at level 1
>>331456224
what's the argument? There's too much shit here to wade through but im really curious now
>>331456665
>!X => !Z is equivalent to Z => X, but it does not tell you that there might also be a Y involved where (X AND Y) => Z.
>this whole line
Holy fucking shit. He's resorted to mathematic equations and Linux Shill scripts to dig him out of this hole
>>331456128
I don't understand it either, but plenty of people do, which is why I don't argue with people in terms of writing - there's too much opinions involved when it comes to that.
>>331456132
It's not going to change that you just got told.
>>331456813
See here for a TL;DR >>331453776
>>331456376
I'm not arguing in favour of Morrowind. What Morrowind did however was involve reactivity in the form of faction dynamics, which is what Oblivion was lacking. Morrowind wasn't great but it was 'better'.
>>331456124
Writing is a big one for me. Quests can offer as much choice as they want, but if none of the choices manage to interest the player there's little point honestly.
Map design is also important for questing. If a quest takes you through a dungeon or involves you walking around a town talking to others, the design of the area the player is exploring is also key to maintaining the player's interest. That's one of the issues I have with Vault design in Fallout 3 and New Vegas. No matter how interesting you make your Vaults, at the core they always will feel kind of the same. This isn't really the fault of the designers, but I think is just an issue with Vaults themselves. They're not really fun to explore. Vault 22 quest was one of my least favorite ones for this reason.
Interactions with enemies, the environment, or characters should also be interesting. I have fond memories of a lot of the character interactions in Planescape and one of my favorite interactions in that game involved a wall giving birth. Fighting enemies should also be fun and not a chore. Oblivion suffers from having enemies that sometimes feel like a chore to fight and New Vegas has some bulletsponges that are annoying too.
>>331456685
Yeah. Witcher 3. The Frost Giant island in Skellige is way better than anything in Oblivion.
Part of it is that the better graphics and models (and more than five voice actors, and actual good voice actors) help the game have a much better atmosphere and a more believable world design helps too.
>>331456962
>Morrowind wasn't great but it was 'better'.
Nah
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEI4yS7sFEw
Skip to 7:10
>>331457084
meant for
>>331456964
>>331456962
but fallout 4 has minimal quests and minimal branching paths, none of your choices matter, and there are zero skill or perk checks, not to mention the most barebones of dialogue options
fallout 3 isnt much better, either
pretty much every quest in new vegas can be solved according to how you built your character, ie the skills and perks and reputation you chose and have.
i really dont see what that guy thinks he's proving t b h
>>331457084
Is that TESO concept art? I'm not even going to check that.
I use MGE to boost Morrowind graphics but the text becomes tiny, any fix to that?
also which quality of life mods besides better bodies, better heads and real road signs?
>>331456685
Witcher 3 does have some of better quests in terms of writing / choices. And I think it's funny that you're pointing out Witcher 3's batman vision quests while people like OP praise Oblivion's quests even though it also relies on a quest marker. But you don't see people complain about Oblivion's quest marker system for some reason...
>>331457061
Nigger, not even him but Witcher 3s quests were fucking shit. Everyone of them revolved around following red trails and clicking on some bullshit
This irrelevant throwaway side quest from oblivion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JD_xuwpEno >>>>>>> anything from the whole Witcher trilogy.
>graphics/models make side quests good
Underage b&
>>331456685
Never understood this picture, this is really all I have on my hud at all times
>>331457198
>what hat guy
So you've taken to same fagging now. You never said skill checks anon, you said branching paths. Deal with your fuck ups.
Besides, damn near every Fallout 4 quest had some forced "PERSUADE" / "INTIMIDATE" option for you to choose. All it did was make every quest feel artificial as fuck.
Cory in the House: Middle Age in the House DLC
>>331457229
I prefer MGE XE. I personally play the game mostly vanilla but i use an animation mod that replaces the retarded walk cycle and one that retextures all monsters while keeping the original look.
>>331456665
>You deny moving your goalposts
>I say when you moved your goalposts
>You reply with shit I wasn't referring to
Are you so full of anger that you can't read my post?
>>331457236
Witcher 3 has
>a marker
>Witcher senses
>trail on the minimap
>circle on the mini map of which you should be in
Oblivion only has
>a compass and a marker
>>331456964
I see. It still doesn't make much sense that you keep repeating your call of duty analogy when it can literally apply from quests of all TES games.
>>331456665
Nigger, what are you even saying? You've been BTFO to the point that you no longer make sense.
>>331456813
The argument is that Oblivion had badly designed quests because they involved not enough choice and reactivity.
An example for a quest with good choice and reactivity was presented in the form of "Beyond the Beef" in New Vegas.
Then the faggot trying to defend Oblivion, realising that everything said was true and that he had nothing in response pulled out a quest from New Vegas which supposedly had a comparable amount of choice (even though it was just a branching fetch-quest) thinking he could discredit the position by somehow proving that New Vegas was as bad as Fallout 3, which meant that Oblivion was somehow good again because obviously Fallout 3 was bad and thus anything alike was bad too.
He got told by someone pointing out that the quality of the quest in New Vegas was higher, since it didn't just involve choice and branching but also involved a lot of skill checks which referenced the player character and made the experience more unique.
Upon realising how badly he got told, he said that bringing such things up was "illegal" because originally it was just brought up that Oblivion was lacking in terms of choice and reactivity.
That's where we still are.
We're not arguing about anything substantial we're arguing whether it is valid to point out why NV has a higher quality in terms of quest design, because according to that guy this is "moving goalposts" - despite the fact that it's obviously nothing of that sort.
In the end, the thread proves that most people arguing in favour of Oblivion are easily upset frogposters who aren't very good at thinking.
>>331457427
>Never understood this picture
Then you are stupid then. Really, if you don't use most UI elements, good for you, but not understand that pic? Christ your brain must be dying.
>>331445236
>Is Walking Dead your favorite game by that standard?
Do you not know what a branching path is?
>>331456997
>Writing is a big one for me.
I would argue that writing is nothing characteristic of RPGs. You can have good writing in an FPS, you can have good writing in a flight simulator, etc.
Writing can make an already well-designed quest better, or a well-designed quest worse, but it's not the most important element, simply because it has nothing to do with the genre itself. Also, writing is very much subject to personal taste.
>Map design is also important for questing.
I would argue that this is more part of general game-design rather than quest design. Quests take place within that environment, but the environment isn't tied to the quest itself.
>Interactions with enemies, the environment, or characters should also be interesting. I have fond memories of a lot of the character interactions in Planescape and one of my favorite interactions in that game involved a wall giving birth. Fighting enemies should also be fun and not a chore. Oblivion suffers from having enemies that sometimes feel like a chore to fight and New Vegas has some bulletsponges that are annoying too.
I completely agree. The keyword is "interactions" here though. In my opinion they need to be actual interactions rather than static sequences without player input.
>>331457642
>has moved from skill checks to "reactivity" now
>"h-he got told"
I dunno anon, all I saw was you getting BTFO by your own example with Fallout 3 (worst Fallout,I preferred FO4), keep posting this one picture of this one quest and then proceed to damage control/samefag when the whole thread turned against you
>>331443927
Shadowrun.
>>331457668
But the two bars one the screen are more obstructive than the entire minimap in the Witcher. Witcher senses are just a way of breaking the barrier between Geralt's abilities and the players. Nothing unnecessary is on the screen and if I didn't like the minimap and wanted to navigate by marker on the map, I could just disable the minimap. Anything you don't like can be hidden and if there's something that you do need to know about (like your health being low), it'll just stay on screen until taken care of.
>>331457775
Walking Dead does have branching paths. Do you know what branching paths are?
>>331457530
I've already told you why what you perceive as having moved goalposts isn't having moved goalposts.
You provided me with a quest in Fallout 3 which supposedly has a comparable degree of branching as the quest in NV, and I've told you why there is a qualitative difference between how the branching is implemented in NV and F3.
Saying that it was illegal to point out the qualitative differences because it destroys your argument is ridiculous, especially because I never even asserted that branching alone was a sufficient criterion for a good quest.
Plenty of VNs have branched "quests" if you will, but they're still not very good quests if judged from RPG point of views.
>>331458043
>Nothing unnecessary is on the screen and if I didn't like the minimap and wanted to navigate by marker on the map, I could just disable the minimap. Anything you don't like can be hidden and if there's something that you do need to know about (like your health being low), it'll just stay on screen until taken care of.
Except your lying.
>forced to use Witcher senses which plague 99% of quests
>Quest givers rarely (if ever) give directions to your quests which force you to use quest markers)
You can play without a minimap oif you want, doesn't mean it's possible to play efficiently without one.
>>331457642
This is a pretty good summary of what happened.
>>331457558
I don't think TES games have particularly great quests. TES games have always mostly been about exploration of the virtual worlds and "living" virtual lives. Not so much about the quests themselves, which is where less open RPGs have always been ahead of them.
>>331457536
You can disable those things, and still figure out where to go thanks to your senses. (not that I'm defending the batman vision system). My original point was that Witcher 3 still has better written quests than Oblivion.
>>331456685
Why do you keep forcing your shitty autistic picture? Are you the witcher hater that got exposed of being a literal redditor?
>>331458167
>I've already told you
That poster wasn't me anon, you're getting confused. I'm the Oblivionbro blowing you the fuck out, not him :^)
>Saying that it was illegal to point out the qualitative differences because it destroys your argument is ridiculous
What's ridiculous is all the goalpost shifting you've been doing out of sheer, suicidal, unadulterated butt hurt, damage control.
>>331443927
I should make a gofundme or whatever they're called today and say im trans and heard this is one of the few games where i can play as a trans and not be prosocuted but cant afford it so somebody will buy it for me.
>>331457978
>I preferred FO4
You're not going to make your point more credible that way. Even considering that you already got told by plain logic alone and all you have left is empty rhetoric, repeating over and over again how you actually won the argument when you've lost it ages ago, you're not going to win any popularity polls by claiming that Fallout 4 is your favourite.
the best quests in an RPG are ones you want to repeat using a different character build or different choices that provides the player with different outcomes. Whether or not these outcomes has an over-arc for entire story is completely different. But from the strictly quest perspective i think we can all agree that quests that only have one outcome regardless of character builds and choices are not worthy.
Quests should also be fun and varied and do not always have to revolve on killing or collecting.
I guess thats why survival type games are popular because the quest is the game, and the player defines it not a developer that's limiting your choices.
I have a huge boner for good sidequests. Why can't /v/ discuss this without shitflinging?
I need to play Oblivion, it's been sitting on my computer for months.
>>331458302
>You can disable those things, and still figure out where to go thanks to your senses.
No you can't. Senses don't lead you to quest markers unless you have to use the witcher senses.
>>331458537
>got told
Speaking of which
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JD_xuwpEno
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0g0wWuI9k0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OS76vUhdak&list=PL70F3814168F3B0AB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dxp7pme1nM&list=PL0D57A20D079B767A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMy8iMXqVKU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggWP9PDEJuQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYqHuoLH1j8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jae8nZQB9xI&list=PLC4A11E6E91EE3EAB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW150XH1YCk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0SQqI-YpN4
Throw in the GOAT OST (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpJEg6MTPzc)
Oblivion >>>> Meme Vegas (82 metacritic, 7.9 worse than FO4 and a 7.9 user score). Go ahead, post your beyond the beef again senpai, i'm starting to think it's the only quest you played
>>331458445
All you've done is prove that you're unable to reason in a logical fashion and you've proven to people that you're not even able to defend the game properly. You've made a fool of yourself by anime and frogposting, and repeating old and refuted arguments over and over again.
>>331458757
>thieves guild
>Dark Brotherhood quest
>that soundtrack
>>331458274
Then why do you keep pointing out things in Oblivion in particular that apply to every TES?
>>331458568
This thread was literally started as a shitposting thread.
No one with an ounce of sense believes Oblivion's quests are the pinnacle of RPGs. It has some good ones, but most of them are just average, like any game really.
Personally I think the Hangover quest and Sheogorath quests in Skyrim are better than anything in Oblivion.
>>331458757
>oblivion sold less and had a worse userscore than new vegas sold and had userscore
>b-but usercore doesnt matter, look at the critics!
>fallout 4
>>331458757
Youtube let's plays and metacritic aren't a good basis for a solid argument, especially considering that you've been reposting the same shit for two hours already >>331446805.
>>331457925
>I would argue that writing is nothing characteristic of RPGs
I'd argue that it has become a big part of RPGs. Games like Oblivion, Planescape, Fallout 1, Fallout: New Vegas, Witcher, Dragon Age, Baldurs Gate, and more all all very heavily centered on writing. Even JRPGs were fairly heavy on writing. I don't know if it's essential, but I think good writing slowly has become what a good amount of people consider essential to an RPG experience.
>Also, writing is very much subject to personal taste.
True in some cases, but good writing is fairly objective.
>I would argue that this is more part of general game-design rather than quest design. Quests take place within that environment, but the environment isn't tied to the quest itself.
I'd agree with this usually, but some quests have specific areas designed only for them. For example, the Dark Brotherhood questline has a quest that involves the player going to a manor and carrying out a series of murders. I'm fairly certain this manor would be inaccessible to the player otherwise. The design of the manor and how the guests interacted with it led to a fairly satisfying quest with a fair amount of choice and reactivity in how you killed the guests off.
>I completely agree. The keyword is "interactions" here though. In my opinion they need to be actual interactions rather than static sequences without player input.
Depends really. Sometimes player input could easily be replaced with static sequences because there really isn't a point for the player needing to give input. For example, while I was playing KotOR, I noticed companions would sometimes entirely ignore what I said and move on with what they were talking about. What was the point of that input then?
>>331458227
I'm not lying, that's exactly how my game works and if you want I can make a webm of it.
Being forced to use Witcher senses to solve otherwise near impossible issues isn't really a problem though.
>>331444148
>spend the night on a floating inn, only to wake up with the boat in the middle of the ocean
what?
>>331458568
because the Elder Scrolls fanbase is as cancerous as the Souls fanbase with their shit memes and circle jerking.
>>331458935
Those two are the worst choices you could've made. Try the Markarth oathsworn quest.
>>331458906
Oblivion did a worse job in many regards. The quests weren't even the worst thing about the game. However, while it's been a while since I've played Morrowind admittedly, but in my memory at least I felt a lot less railroaded than in Oblivion.
>>331458507
or you could just pirate it
>>331458935
You're right
The thing is, other than nostalgia, which I have for Oblivion too, to a degree, is that Oblivion's strength lies in the side quests which had no connection to the main story.
Many of the quests that seemed rather boring fetch quests turned out to be a lot more than that
But the same went that quest with the Hangover shit
It starts out pretty normal, just a drinking contest
You expect some weird shit, but then you learn how ridiculous the shit you did actually was
>>331458846
The moment you moved the goalposts is the moment your argument became null and void. If your argument was strong on its own merits you wouldn't be forced to change it numerous times as well as lie numerous times.
>Oblivions quests suck because it doesn't have branching paths
Oblivions quests do have branching paths
>"NOT ALL THE TIME!"
Neither does Fallout New Vegas, see: >>331446524
>MUH BEYOND THE BEEF
Muh Survival Guide>>331444453. Guess FO3 has better quests then
>B-BUT THERE'S NO SPEECH CHECKS
Well, first of all. There are (you can convinice Moira to flat out drop her research and get a totally diffent reward), second of all, you never said that's what makes quests good in your initial argument.
>NO, NO STOP. This formula describes how, for any good quest, you must need a counter obstacle, the square of the length of the hypotenuse, c, (the longest side of a right triangle) equals the sum of the squares of the lengths of the other two sides (a and b). Thus, a^2 + b^2 = c^2 which in turn CONFIRMS MY ARGUMENT IS CORRECT
Lol, wut?
>>331443927
>Name an RPG with better quests
That game has some of the worst quests I've ever seen in an RPG.
There's a quest where apparantely cougars sneak into some hags basement, you then go and find a "hunter" that wears full plate. You walk a tiny big out of town and kill like 2-3 cougars. Said hunter then exclaims that you killed all of them and the problem is solved, yet when you go back to the basement there are more cougars there.
The design and writing of that entire quest was stupid and shit and that's just one of many examples.
>>331459303
Morrowind gave you opportunities to skip parts of the main quest or busywork even if it was linear.
>LE NEWVEGAS FAGS AMIRITE GUISE
Ok we get it, your contrarian teen ass wants to force a meme. You can stop pretending to be retarded now. Youre throwing the thread way offtopic with your shitposting
>>331459303
>lot less railroaded than in Oblivion.
Well thats the one things Morrowind has, to me, thats actually a plus. You don't follow a quest marker. Aside from that, Morrowind is full of shallow fetch quests and copy paste. Christ the copy paste is strong.
>>331458568
You're not supposed to discuss video games in /v/
>>331458972
>oblivion sold less and had a worse userscore than new vegas sold and had userscore
Oblivion has a higher userscore
>>331459416
You're more obsessed with goal posts than a professional handegg player.
Jesus dude, there's such a thing as evolving an argument. You're not limited to one thing and then obligated to stick to it.
>>331443927
Oblivion had the best side quests in ES for sure. But whats this thread about anyway? New Vegas quests Vs Oblivion's?
How did that happen?( I love both btw)
>>331459694
Evolving is one thing
Making things up is another
>>331458935
>Skyrim quests
Way to invalidate your whole post.
>>331459694
>hand egg
kill yourself
>>331459026
>I'd argue that it has become a big part of RPGs. Games like Oblivion, Planescape, Fallout 1, Fallout: New Vegas, Witcher, Dragon Age, Baldurs Gate, and more all all very heavily centered on writing. Even JRPGs were fairly heavy on writing. I don't know if it's essential, but I think good writing slowly has become what a good amount of people consider essential to an RPG experience.
I still maintain that it's not characteristic. Good writing alone does not make a game a good RPG. Good writing is not a sufficient criterion for a good quest.
>True in some cases, but good writing is fairly objective.
I disagree there; or rather, I wouldn't use attributes such as good. I prefer words like "functional" in regards to what the author is set to accomplish.
>I'm fairly certain this manor would be inaccessible to the player otherwise.
That would be another point I'd criticise, but I'd still separate the visual world design from the mechanical scripting and writing involved.
>Sometimes player input could easily be replaced with static sequences because there really isn't a point for the player needing to give input.
And yet it should not - at least if the player character does something. In my opinion even a meaningless choice is better than no choice, because a meaningless choice does nothing and takes little effort, yet taking the choice out of the player's hands may disconnect the player from his character by making him say or do something the player might disagree with.
>>331459469
>he didn't play morrowind
See: >>331449135
It was a throwback quest you underage faggot and turned a Morrowind cliche on top of its head
>>331459662
>taking the highest oblivion score and lowest new vegas score
i didnt realize it but at least mine were both PC, i think. Anyways if you average them theyre about equal, so nevermind. I dont know why the 360 version of oblivion is so much higher than the rest though
>>331459827
On anon has a huge boner for NV (which is a good game), and he went to infinity and beyond to defend it
However he is rather retarded and can't formulate his argument
So he resorts to goalpost shifting and lying
The rest is just flinging shit to him for giggles
>>331459694
He didn't evolve his argument, he literally jumped from point to point when his flawed logic was brought into question with a simple example in the form of Fallout 3
>>331460004
Whatever helps you sleep at night
>>331460051
The autistic thing is he didn't need to defend it if he didn't shitpost so badly with his hyperbole
>HURR, OBLIVIONS QUESTS ARE FLAT OUT SHIT BECAUSE THERE'S NO SPEECH CHECKS
It was absurd. He brought it on himself.
>>331459416
Do you even realise how retarded you sound to people?
The goalpost wasn't even moved. You invented that goalpost in your own misunderstanding. Then you got told and instead of finding a response, you've been repeating the same line for over an hour now.
You're not going to prove a point this way. Nobody is going to believe that Oblivion has the better quests if you act like a moron.
>>331443927
Probably The Witcher 3's contracts for me. Not so much the detective work (which I completely detest), but more of the fact that near enough every contract has an individual written story with monsters built upon a solid lore.
Remember finishing a contract only to end up in a Skelligan jail. Surprising to say the least.
>>331459878
>an image with no actual examples
It's almost like in my post I said
>It has some good ones, but most of them are just average, like any game really.
>LIKE ANY GAME REALLY
>any of course meaning every and thus including skyrim
Get some reading comprehension you fucking third grader.
>>331460115
see
>>331459662
94 metacritic, 8.7 userscore. Get me Fallout New Vegas's best version. Oh wait, that was it.
>>331460051
On anon has a huge boner for Oblivion (which is a good game), and he went to infinity and beyond to defend it
However he is rather retarded and can't formulate his argument
So he resorts to goalpost shifting and lying
The rest is just flinging shit to him for giggles
Both shitposters are equally guilty.
>>331460310
he literally showed you a better version senpai, what are you smoking
>>331460217
Judging by the numerous comments saying that your retarded, I would say it's the opposite.
>>331460403
More like what is he sucking?Bethesda cock
>>331460467
>your
>>331460242
Have you played oblivion? Even the most generic quests had some cool story. See: >>331449135
Oblivions quests also had actual variety in thieves/assassination quests as well
>>331443927
Elder Scrolls Online.
>>331460345
Oblivionanon here
>So he resorts to goalpost shifting and lying
Name the goalpost I shifted in order for your meme post to be valid.
>>331460403
>better version
>84 metacritic and 8.5 userscore
>better than
>94 metacritic and 8.7 userscore
ufuckingwot?
>>331460571
This is what has been overlooked the most in all this.
Painted trolls quest is generic and short, but it has a good story surrounding it, and a unique location built for it. This is something Oblivion does very well.
>>331460467
he had the most consistently logical and non shitposting posts in this thread so far and definitely sounds more intelligent
also
>implying most of /v/ isnt retarded
>especially the part of /v/ that go into shitposting threads
>>331460196
But that's the case.
What you don't get is that not having speech checks making a quest bad does not imply that having speech checks means that a quest is good.
That's your own lack of reasoning ability.
>>331460345
Guilty as charged
But still, getting this fag mad as hell is pretty fun
And it is fun to get some insight in someone who can't say shit straight
>>331460707
You invented a fucking goalpost by asserting that the other guy made a point he never made.
>>331460664
The only true answer.
/thread
>>331444148
But branching paths do=good quests.
And you are flat out wrong about Morrowind's quests, they are generally pretty incredible.
But yes, I can't disagree that Oblivion literally has the best quests in any game ever. Comfy as fuck.
>>331460768
BUT DEM SPEECH CHECKS DOE
>>331460310
Critics don't edit their reviews once bugs and glitches have been fixed and user reviews are nothing but a double bladed sword. Both are heavily biased.
>>331460571
I never honestly played Oblivion past bringing Martin to the Blades. Lost interest entirely.
>>331460820
>I was only pretending to be retarded
The Oblivion fanbase, everyone.
>>331460772
>he
Who are you even trying to fool buddy. He made an argument and then changed it when his own argument backfired against him. If that's "consistent" to you then the only explanation is what everybody already knows.You're samefagging
>>331444580
>random quest
Nigga that's one of about only 15 large sidequests in the game. Just accept that Shitout 3 has no content.
>>331444148
You were comletely right about where this thread would go. Not that it's hard to predict, Obisidan vs Bethesda is like the fucking console wars for some reason.
>>331461228
Lol, Just noticed.
>>331444148
Way to call the thread. First post is ALWAYS best post
>>331461228
I like Fallout 3. I like Fallout New Vegas.
I hate Fallout 4. I hate Obsidian now.
Kind of balances out things, considering both companies have turned utter shit.
>>331459953
>Good writing alone does not make a game a good RPG. Good writing is not a sufficient criterion for a good quest.
And I'd still argue that it does. Because in a roleplaying game, I constantly will look for more opportunities to define my character in the world. Good writing is one excellent way of defining who I am in an RPG aside from stat allocation and character building. Not only does it allow me to define my character, but it can bring life to a world. Regardless of how you feel about Oblivion, it's main world is fairly boring in terms of sights and scenery. But introduce a quest that takes you into a painted world, has you infiltrate a sanctuary full of blind monks, or rescue someone from a mysterious cult and suddenly you can begin to view that boring world a little differently.
>I prefer words like "functional" in regards to what the author is set to accomplish.
Nailed what I meant to say.
>That would be another point I'd criticise, but I'd still separate the visual world design from the mechanical scripting and writing involved.
If a quest area is separated from the normal explorable area though, than it is in some way separated from the world design. When I mentioned the manor quest, I wasn't only praising the design of how the characters are scripted but also how the manor itself is designed. There's a lot of opportunity in the design of the manor to strike a killing blow to one of the guests and not be seen at all.
>In my opinion even a meaningless choice is better than no choice, because a meaningless choice does nothing and takes little effort, yet taking the choice out of the player's hands may disconnect the player from his character by making him say or do something the player might disagree with.
I disagree, a meaningless choice trivializes other choices. Taking away player choice doesn't necessarily mean making your character say something you don't want him to say. I would have preferred for my character to stay quiet.
>>331461118
second time i've been accused of samefagging in this thread and I bet it was you both times
he didnt change is argument moron, he took it for granted youd include a specific thing like skill checks under the umbrella of "quests based on choices" or whatever it was you were discussing. Then when he pointed it out explicitly you latched onto "moving the goalposts" for LITERALLY 200 posts
>>331461118
That's not me.
I'm the guy you've been arguing with and what you perceive as "having made an argument" is your own lack of reasoning ability.
I can only repeat that me pointing out that Oblivion's quests were mechanically bad due to lacking choice and reactivity does not imply that choice and reactivity is the only thing a good quest needs. In assuming that I said that you've only shown everyone that you don't understand logic.
You've been told that very same thing often enough, yet you refuse to accept it, since it means that your whole argument of supposedly "shifting goalposts", falls apart. You've argued for hours, repeating your nonsense over and over again, having been told ages ago.
>New Vegas has shit quests
>Oblivion has shit quests
Why does /v/ always have to resort to hyperbole? Both quests are great for what they mechanics they had in place. Oblivions quests were infinitely more engaging/memorable but New Vegas was definitely the more replayable.
Why? Because if New Vegas/Oblivion weren't your first fucking Elder Scrolls/Fallout game you would know replayable quests was always a big thing in Fallout 1/2 and that interesting quests was also a thing in Morrowind (never played Daggerfall, might try it some day).
Sure Morrowinds quests sucked for the most part but the rare few that were good were REALLY fucking good, Oblivion simply had a lot more that were really fucking good.
Fuck i hate this hyperbole piece of shit hellholeyet I can never seem to leave
Oblivion was trash. I had it on xbox and could never get into it. The missions were all shit and the only fun I took out of it was robbing people's houses.
When skyrim came out though it was a way more polished experience and I enjoyed the fuck out of it. I still play skyrim sometimes on pc today whereas I threw oblivion in the bin years ago. It wasn't even worth trading in. I didn't want some poor lad buying it and ending up having the most shitty gaming experience of his life.
>tfw copy pasted dialogue in mentioned
>Morrowind fanboy instantly stops replying
Oblivion definitely had the most interesting/varied quests, that's pretty undeniable. As for all this "muh mechanical depth", eh. I guess you could have Fallout 4 listed there but even then its quests were horribly inconsistent and on average, they were simply boring.
I think people are confusing better quests with better RPG, Of which Fallout NV is definitely the latter.
>>331461450
>And I'd still argue that it does.
No, that cannot be the case. Keep in mind that I'm making a logical argument here. If good writing were sufficient for a good quest or a game being a good RPG, then you'd have plenty of "good RPGs" that aren't RPGs at all. Writing is not characteristic of RPGs. You have writing in all kinds of games that might as well be good games but are not RPGs. In that regard, writing cannot be the one decisive element. RPGs are a storytelling medium, in that regard we are in agreement, and in that regard writing is an important factor. But it cannot be the only important factor. It takes a certain mechanical element characteristic of RPGs also.
>I wasn't only praising the design of how the characters are scripted but also how the manor itself is designed. There's a lot of opportunity in the design of the manor to strike a killing blow to one of the guests and not be seen at all.
I still consider this more level design than quest design. For a more "action based" game like Oblivion this may be relevant in regards to quests, but even there I'd argue that it's more an issue of the quest designer making good use of the environment provided by the level designer.
>I disagree, a meaningless choice trivializes other choices. Taking away player choice doesn't necessarily mean making your character say something you don't want him to say. I would have preferred for my character to stay quiet.
I don't think that it trivialises. More choice is always a good thing. In the end, the personality of the player character takes place in the player's head to a large part. Within the game itself, the player character is defined as a sequence of flags that were set, but based on that alone personality could barely be derived. Allowing the player a dialogue choice, even if it does not have greater meaning, gives the player to experience his character interacting with the virtual world in a certain fashion, which can be satisfying all in itself.
>>331462506
>Fallout 4
Meant to say Fallout New Vegas
>>331461515
>
I can only repeat that me pointing out that Oblivion's quests were mechanically bad due to lacking choice and reactivity does not imply that choice and reactivity is the only thing a good quest needs
Oblivions quests did have choices as well as speech checks (more like Desposition checks but it's essentially the same thing).
What are you talking about? The Dark Brotherhood questline alone debunks your branching path argument and the "Stolen Goods" (think that's its name) questline and The hijacked Boat Inn questlines both required speech checks. Same with the stolen painting in the castle and the Wood Elf from Skingrad (the mentally insane one).
Seriously, what are you talking about?
>>331459352
Ive never pirated wanna spoonfeed me?
>>331462794
>Seriously, what are you talking about?
I don't think even he knows seeing as he's been jumping from argument to argument this whole thread.
>>331462506
It depends on what you consider "quest".
Most people like Oblivion's quest because of the writing. You got to go to varied places, unexpected things happened occasionally, etc. - but in terms of actual mechanical design? I don't see them as particularly great. Lots of other games have given the player more varied opportunity to make use of their character's skills to solve them. Even if we're not using NV as an example - take Bloodlines, where you get to use all kinds of vampiric skills or other types of abilities in dialogue, where you get to solve things by different means, occasionally stealthily, violently or by talking your way in - assuming you had the right skills.
In Oblivion, this was lacking in my opinion. No matter how good your character was at anything, you could always solve them the same way.
If Oblivion, in addition to the writing had more opportunity to apply stats, skills, etc. and make more lasting quest choices, it would have been more memorable.
>>331462905
>I don't think even he knows seeing as he's been jumping from argument to argument this whole thread.
I know that but i'm curious to know if he's just playing dumb, lying or simply hasn't played Oblivion. Elder Scrolls games have never been dialogue focused to the point of requiring speech checks or anything of that sort, Morrowind was terrible for this and had worse dialogue options than Fallout 4 if you're being objective about it. Still doesn't mean Fallout 4 had superior quests (it didn't), Oblivion did pretty well in incoporating branching paths/dialogue checks without overusing them. Especially seeing as they didn't have a blatant foundation like New Vegas had with Fallout 3.
>>331463082
>Morrowind was terrible for this and had worse dialogue options than Fallout 4
Nigga don't you dare badmouth Morrowinds hyperlink dialogue system.
>>331462794
>Oblivions quests did have choices as well as speech checks (more like Desposition checks but it's essentially the same thing).
What we're talking about is not a binary argument of existence but a qualitative argument. This is the exact same case as in the New Vegas example again. In RPGs like New Vegas - but also Bloodlines for that matter, given your dislike for Obsidian - you encounter such checks a lot more frequently. And you also have more freedom when it comes to solving lots of quests. In Oblivion, the way is pretty much pre-made for you, and you only need to follow your compass.
Refer to what I've written in >>331462995.
>>331462995
see
>>331462794
>>331463082
I just don't see your argument. You seem to be pushing this notion that New vegas's quest design is superior purely because of one example that could also be found for Oblivion. Point is both games have linear/mechanically deep quests. Variety I would say undeniably goes to Oblivion so there's a plus there, I would say Dialogue wise I would give the edge to New Vegas because Elder Scrolls games have neever been dialogue focused whereas Fallout games have been (especially Obsidian games).
I just don't see your point.
>>331463321
You've not said much in the way of a refute. What exactly is your point?
>What we're talking about is not a binary argument of existence but a qualitative argument
Yes?
>In RPGs like New Vegas - but also Bloodlines for that matter, given your dislike for Obsidian - you encounter such checks a lot more frequently.
Obsidian had nothing to do with VtMB and VtMB is as close to a pure RPG as it gets. Doesn't mean the quests are better, in fact. Outside of Santa Monica/Hollywood, they were pretty fucking shit. Especially The China hub/end game.
>you encounter such checks a lot more frequently
As you do in Oblivion? Why do speech checks define a quests quality? Don't Oblivions varity (Assassinations/Thieves guild) on top of the insane amount of interesting side quests in the minor cities/settlements make up for something that Elder Scrolls games never really incorporated in the first place?
To me it looks like you're pushing a standard definition on what makes a games quest "good" which is flawed because when you apply that then games like Fallout 4 end up looking better on paper than Morrowind/Oblivion from a quest perspective which everybody would disagree on.
>>331463353
In New Vegas I simply have more opportunity to freely apply my skills. I know a certain guy has an item I need, so I may be able to talk him out of it, I may be able to fetch it via pickpocketting, I can shoot him, etc. - in the same sense, most of the quests provide with the opportunity to apply my skills. And I have all kinds of skills I can use. I get to use my medical skills to solve some things, occasionally I get to apply my repair skill, another time I need to sneak past someone and so on.
In Oblivion, the setup of the quest may be nice, the story may be nicely told and the events that happen on my way may occasionally be unexpected - but the way of how I go through the quests always felt like I was being railroaded.
>>331462568
>But it cannot be the only important factor.
I never argued that it was the only important factor in an RPG, but I do believe it is for a quest. After all, writing gives meaning to the quest itself and it isn't fun to simply do things without meaning. That takes away from character building and world building.
>I still consider this more level design than quest design.
It is level design, but good level design helps good quest design. If a quest takes you to a dungeon for example and the dungeon was only a straight long corridor with the occasional group of enemies until you get to a treasure/boss room, that would hurt the quest no matter how good any element of the quest is. The ending to Planescape wouldn't be as memorable and interesting if the Fortress of Regret was just an ordinary castle.
>I don't think that it trivialises. More choice is always a good thing. In the end, the personality of the player character takes place in the player's head to a large part.
It is good, but only when there's an appropriate reaction to the choice. If I say something that would clearly warrant a response and my reply goes ignored, that hurts character building and immersion in the game. Although we may define our character more in our heads, the great part about a roleplaying game is being able to translate what's in our minds to what's in the game. If that translation is awkward and pointless, then it serves no purpose.
>>331443927
Are Bethesdrones this delusionla think any of their Bethshit game has good quests?
Have you Bethesdrones even touched Witcher 3? The glorious varied well written quests of Witcher 3 take a huge dump on any of the games Bethesda has ever made.
Give me a single quest in Oblivion that is better than Witcher 3's Tower of Mice and Possession side quest? Ofc you can't, your dungeon loot simulator game with poor writing has nothing quality work to offer.
>>331463771
>Obsidian had nothing to do with VtMB
That's why I used it as an example. Given your dislike for Obsidian I named Bloodlines as an example as it was made by Troika.
>and VtMB is as close to a pure RPG as it gets. Doesn't mean the quests are better, in fact. Outside of Santa Monica/Hollywood, they were pretty fucking shit. Especially The China hub/end game.
That may more have something to do with the fact that it was shipped unfinished. In terms of mechanical freedom you'll have to agree that you get more opportunity to use your abilities to solve your quests.
That's what I was missing in Oblivion.
For example: imagine if you were an assassin who needed to get inside a house. Now you could use your climb skill to get on top. Or maybe you enter a locked gate at the back for which you need your lockpicking skill. Or maybe you blast it open using explosion skill given that you're a capable mage. etc. etc. - overall, the quests did not reference the character build. No matter who you were, you could solve any quest by any means. To me, this is ultimately less satisfactory, since it takes the uniqueness out of the attempt. It's not that my character did something which only he could do given the skills he learned through his travels, but it's something everyone does, regardless of his level or skillset.
>>331463872
>In New Vegas I simply have more opportunity to freely apply my skills
Ok? How does this exactly make its quests betetr than Oblivions?
> I know a certain guy has an item I need, so I may be able to talk him out of it, I may be able to fetch it via pickpocketting
Exact same with oblivion and before you say "not all the time", that also applies to Fallout New Vegas.
> but the way of how I go through the quests always felt like I was being railroaded.
Even if this is the case (which it isn't for every quest, see the examples I gave), why is that bad in regards to the fact that we are discussing quests and only quests here? What you're describing is a game using its mechanics in the quest, mechanics that differ partly because Fallout games have always been distinctly different from TES games relative to RPG mechanics.
In the Thieves guild I can brute force my way through quests as a warrior/mage, it makes no difference, you just get penalties for killing people. Same with the dark brotherhood, that's allowing you to apply your skills outside of the dialogue system, something Elder Scrolls games have never focused in.
You seem to be putting Elder Scrolls quest design to that of Fallout and comparing them on those merits.
>>331463771
>To me it looks like you're pushing a standard definition on what makes a games quest "good" which is flawed because when you apply that then games like Fallout 4 end up looking better on paper than Morrowind/Oblivion from a quest perspective which everybody would disagree on.
Fallout 4 - which I haven't played - I'm fairly certain does plenty of other things wrong, despite a mechanically solid setup when it comes to quests.
>>331464308
Jesus christ nigga calm the fuck down. Before you make autism jumps I enjoyed witcher 3 and specially HoS. But really, fucking behave yourself holy shit.
>>331464308
Witcherfags are retarded
>>331464426
>Ok? How does this exactly make its quests betetr than Oblivions?
Because that's what I regard essential to a good RPG.
>Exact same with oblivion and before you say "not all the time", that also applies to Fallout New Vegas.
There's a lot of space between "not all the time" and "every time". As I said, it's not a binary argument of existence but one of frequency of application, and most importantly where it has been applied, whether it makes sense, etc.
>something Elder Scrolls games have never focused in
The genre evolves, and never having focussed on something doesn't mean that it has to stay that way.
>You seem to be putting Elder Scrolls quest design to that of Fallout and comparing them on those merits.
I compare them based on what I regard a good RPG. If you disagree with my premises, then these can be discussed.
>>331464365
>Given your dislike for Obsidian I named Bloodlines as an example as it was made by Troika.
I don't have a dislike for Obsidian. You're confusing me with someone else.
>That may more have something to do with the fact that it was shipped unfinished
So? Don't use an unfinished game as an example then.
> In terms of mechanical freedom you'll have to agree that you get more opportunity to use your abilities to solve your quests.
More opportunities because there were significantly fewer quests. VtMB isn't even an open world game, it's better comparable to Human Revolution, not a Sandbox RPG like Oblivion. Flawed comparison.
>That's what I was missing in Oblivion.
Maybe you were missing it, nobody who played an Elder Scrolls game prior to Oblivion did because such things never existed in the first place outside of the barter/desposition metre and I believe Morrowind had some quests that required you to arbitrarily have a specific skill number (don't quote me on this). Outside of that, the quests from Oblivion were essentially all of Morrowinds good quests but significantly more consistent and significantly less fetch quests/padding.
>For example: imagine if you were an assassin who needed to get inside a house. Now you could use your climb skill to get on top. Or maybe you enter a locked gate at the back for which you need your lockpicking skill
This is in Oblivion.
Baenlin Assassination (can't remember how to spell his name)
>Pick Pocket his bodyguard for the key to the house and enter that way
>Kill his bodyguard for the key to the house and enter that way
>pick lock the door or side basement and enter guns blazing or silently
>rig a small object to fall on his head or simply kill him yourself
Murder Mansion quest line
>Kill everybody the moment you enter the door
>Kill everybody silently
>Get everybody to turn on each other and act as a catalyst
Oblivion had all of this on top of interesting quests.
>>331463957
>I never argued that it was the only important factor in an RPG, but I do believe it is for a quest. After all, writing gives meaning to the quest itself and it isn't fun to simply do things without meaning. That takes away from character building and world building.
We were arguing about sufficiency though, so if we're in agreement that good writing alone does not make a good quest, then we can move on here.
>It is level design, but good level design helps good quest design. If a quest takes you to a dungeon for example and the dungeon was only a straight long corridor with the occasional group of enemies until you get to a treasure/boss room, that would hurt the quest no matter how good any element of the quest is. The ending to Planescape wouldn't be as memorable and interesting if the Fortress of Regret was just an ordinary castle.
I agree, but it still is level design after all.
>It is good, but only when there's an appropriate reaction to the choice. If I say something that would clearly warrant a response and my reply goes ignored, that hurts character building and immersion in the game. Although we may define our character more in our heads, the great part about a roleplaying game is being able to translate what's in our minds to what's in the game. If that translation is awkward and pointless, then it serves no purpose.
Obviously an appropriate reaction is mandatory, but it doesn't need to go far beyond that, e.g. a random remark doesn't need lasting consequences, yet it may aid the player characterising the person he's role playing as.
>>331464907
>Because that's what I regard essential to a good RPG.
Well I don't and so do many others, hence the significant critical acclaim of the series. Planescape is no better of an RPG than Baldur's Gate just because it offers more dialogue options/checks. It's just a different RPG, same with Morrowind and Oblivion and same with their quest structure.
>There's a lot of space between "not all the time" and "every time". As I said, it's not a binary argument of existence but one of frequency of application, and most importantly where it has been applied, whether it makes sense, etc.
Not really, I can list far more quests that offered choices in Oblivion to some degree than none. Can you list me quests that absolutely had ZERO choice of how you tackle it?
>The genre evolves, and never having focussed on something doesn't mean that it has to stay that way.
The genre hasn't evolved much and if anything is only growing worse with more and more casualization, as the recent success Witcher 3 is evidence off (still a great game).
>I compare them based on what I regard a good RPG. If you disagree with my premises, then these can be discussed.
Not much to discuss, you're arguing a complete different type of RPG. A borderline P&P stat influenced RPG like the Fallout series that had everything to even making a literal retard to a sandbox exploration based RPG like the Elder Scrolls games. They are simply not comparable in the same vein as Splinter Cell is not the same stealth game as The Last of Us.
You have a very narrow minded view of the RPG genre. Question, do you view Dark Souls games as RPGs?
>>331464308
I like both Bethesda games and cdpr games so the jokes on you bitch.
Skyrim and witcher 3 are 2 of my favourite games of all time.
Okay /v/, you've convinced me to play Oblivion.
What are the essential mods? I don't care about graphics, but I don't like level scaling, and bugfixes are nice.
>>331464517
>>331464689
>>331465537
>replying to such obvious bait
>>331465038
>So? Don't use an unfinished game as an example then.
The not-unfinished half involves plenty of good quests.
>More opportunities because there were significantly fewer quests. VtMB isn't even an open world game, it's better comparable to Human Revolution, not a Sandbox RPG like Oblivion. Flawed comparison.
Quality is more important than quantity. If they're lacking the capacities to make lots of good quests they should reduce their quantity.
>I believe Morrowind had some quests that required you to arbitrarily have a specific skill number (don't quote me on this).
Yes; in order to join the guilds for example you needed to have certain abilities.
>Oblivion had all of this on top of interesting quests.
Perhaps the things you mentioned got ruined by the level scaling, making everything too easily viable to any type of character build, but I still maintain that they could have done more with the toolset they had at hands.
The quests were of course not the only problem of Oblivion. Level scaling for enemies and loot were probably the most relevant issue.
>>331465803
Theuninstallmod.but seriously, FCOM is a pile of garbage and discard anyone's opinion if they recommend it
>>331465210
>We were arguing about sufficiency though, so if we're in agreement that good writing alone does not make a good quest, then we can move on here.
Weren't we arguing about the key elements in quest design and RPG design? Writing is a key element in both of them. I don't know of a single quest that is functional without some backstory or any decent RPG without barebones writing. Good writing alone doesn't make a quest good, you're right. You need good player interaction too. But if you can't justify the player interaction in any way or you're quest only relies on writing then the whole thing just falls apart. Some Yin and Yang balance shit right there.
>Obviously an appropriate reaction is mandatory
And that's all I was saying really. Any reaction to a choice the player makes whether it be long-term, short-term, small, or big is necessary. Otherwise the choice is really pointless.
>>331465882
>The not-unfinished half involves plenty of good quests.
As does Oblivion. Can you name me your top 3 favorite VtMB quests out of curiosity? I've played it and it's definitely one of my more liked RPGS (because I loved the universe and world of the WoD lore) but the quests are grossly overrated. The writing is what makes it good, not its mechanics.
>Quality is more important than quantity
And i would definitely say oblivion definitely has both. I can easily name at least 2 good quests for every bad one (I think objectively bad quests are fetch quests/ go here kill this with no other twist/depth to it). So I don't see your point here.
>Yes; in order to join the guilds for example you needed to have certain abilities.
Any examples? That's not a quest though. That's a mechanic to Morrowinds RPG depth, something nobody argues. I prefer Oblivion personally (Morrowind was too flawed to make up for its depth, something that Daggerfall trumps it in anyway) but even I recognize Morrowind as the superior RPG.
>Perhaps the things you mentioned got ruined by the level scaling, making everything too easily viable to any type of character build, but I still maintain that they could have done more with the toolset they had at hands.
Fair enough, the level scaling definitely made a dent in Oblivions mechanics but I still think the quests were good enough to negate Oblivions short comings. They were just so varied and interesting that I have yet to meet somebody (outside of /v/) that genuinely thought Oblivion had mediocre quests on average whereas I don't think anybody could get mad over people thinking Morrowind had pretty shit quests on average.
>The quests were of course not the only problem of Oblivion. Level scaling for enemies and loot were probably the most relevant issue.
The quests weren't a problem for most people, as for the level scaling. I agree there
>>331465432
>Well I don't and so do many others, hence the significant critical acclaim of the series. Planescape is no better of an RPG than Baldur's Gate just because it offers more dialogue options/checks. It's just a different RPG, same with Morrowind and Oblivion and same with their quest structure.
Of course. However, Oblivion did several things significantly worse than Morrowind - even if that thing was not quest design itself.
>Not really, I can list far more quests that offered choices in Oblivion to some degree than none. Can you list me quests that absolutely had ZERO choice of how you tackle it?
It's been quite some time since I've played it. I played it when it came out and never again. Back then I felt pretty railroaded though and the choices were mostly minor. In my memory, the average Oblivion quests were about following the quest marker to a certain point where I'd then see a pop-up and soon have to beat someone up. There were some quests which involved a bit more depth, but even those rarely referenced stats/skills. Perhaps it was the same in Morrowind, but there, the game itself relied heavier on player stats/skills due to a lack of level scaling.
>The genre hasn't evolved much and if anything is only growing worse with more and more casualization
I disagree. Recently we've seen some promising releases. Mainstream RPGs are getting worse, but those can be ignored.
>Not much to discuss, you're arguing a complete different type of RPG.
I don't think they need to be completely different.
>You have a very narrow minded view of the RPG genre. Question, do you view Dark Souls games as RPGs?
Dark Souls is an action game that shares some game mechanics with RPGs.
>>331466641
>As does Oblivion. Can you name me your top 3 favorite VtMB quests out of curiosity?
Obviously you want me to mention the Ocean House here, which barely involves any role playing choice, and while I'd argue that it's memorable, I don't think an RPG can rely on such quests alone. I remember lots of quests from Bloodlines, because I've beaten it so many times, but I don't think I can point out a distinct "favourite". I know what I don't like - which is the combat heavy, railroading second half, but the first half has been pretty consistent. Lots of dialogue checks, lots of different opportunities to solve things without any distinct highs or lows.
>Any examples?
Only the Morag Tong comes to mind, since I tried to join when I was playing the game for the first time and first had to raise my skills to a certain level if I remember correctly.
>That's a mechanic to Morrowinds RPG depth, something nobody argues. I prefer Oblivion personally (Morrowind was too flawed to make up for its depth, something that Daggerfall trumps it in anyway) but even I recognize Morrowind as the superior RPG.
Daggerfall was an interesting experiment, but to me it always felt unsatisfactory due to the amount of procedurally generated content. It would have been nice, had Morrowind had the same level of depth when it came to the system itself, but as a game I preferred Morrowind. Your preference of Oblivion I cannot understand. Level scaling ruined the game for me.
>I have yet to meet somebody (outside of /v/) that genuinely thought Oblivion had mediocre quests on average
My argument is a mechanical one. I'm willing to agree that they were varied, interesting, etc. or that someone could see them as such. When it comes to mechanics, I feel they're unsatisfactory though. It may have something to do with the underlying game mechanics though; perhaps had Morrowind featured such quests I would have liked them better.
>>331465803
mods and what not here
http://demwaifus.blogspot.ca
>>331466640
>You need good player interaction too. But if you can't justify the player interaction in any way or you're quest only relies on writing then the whole thing just falls apart. Some Yin and Yang balance shit right there.
I'm inclined to agree there. Still, the mechanical part is the one that is characteristic of RPGs itself. Good writing can be part of any game.
>Any reaction to a choice the player makes whether it be long-term, short-term, small, or big is necessary. Otherwise the choice is really pointless.
We're in agreement then.
>>331466775
>Of course. However, Oblivion did several things significantly worse than Morrowind - even if that thing was not quest design itself.
As did Morrowind. But i'm not about to get into which is the better game, because I don't really care. I prefer Oblivion and my first TES was Daggerfall (coincidentally it's my favorite TES).
>It's been quite some time since I've played it. I played it when it came out and never again
Well take my word for it, the quests are definitely not as open ended as Fallout, I will concede that but they are by no means as linear as you are making them out to be and nor were TES games ever designed to be as open ended as Fallout/VtMB games in regards to dialogue/quest structure.
>I disagree. Recently we've seen some promising releases. Mainstream RPGs are getting worse, but those can be ignored.
Genuinely curious but what RPGS? If it's some a PoE game then I can't comment, haven't played any modern isometric RPGs, i've grown out of them, my last one of was Arcanium that I tried to play a few years back.
>I don't think they need to be completely different.
What do you mean by this?
><Dark Souls is an action game that shares some game mechanics with RPGs.
See, that's where I disagree but again, not going to get in an argument about an already hard to define genre. Point is, Dark Souls is objectively classified as an RPG, whether you think it is or not but I do see why some people paint it more as an action game. I just disagree and think it fits the ARPG descriptor perfectly.
>>331468050
>Still, the mechanical part is the one that is characteristic of RPGs itself.
Arguable right now. The RPG genre has changed a lot to the point where it's hard to just point to the mechanical side of an RPG and say that's what's the most important.
>Good writing can be part of any game.
It can be part of any game, but it's not necessary for every genre like it is for an RPG.
You can have a perfectly functional FPS, puzzle, strategy, or fighting game without writing. It's incredibly hard to have a functional RPG without writing though. I don't think I've ever even played an RPG without some sort of writing before.
>>331467853
>Obviously you want me to mention the Ocean House here, which barely involves any role playing choice, and while I'd argue that it's memorable
Exactly. The most memorable quests in the game are not because of their choices/implementation of its mechanics but other factors. That's what I think many have been arguing with you in this thread about and I think it's why this argument is ultimately futile. Your definition of a good quest isn't the same as others and comparing mechanically different RPGs doesn't help matters.
> I don't think an RPG can rely on such quests alone
Agreed but that's not what this thread was about.It was purely about shitposting.
>Only the Morag Tong comes to mind, since I tried to join when I was playing the game for the first time and first had to raise my skills to a certain level if I remember correctly.
I can't recall but i'll take your word for it.
>Daggerfall was an interesting experiment, but to me it always felt unsatisfactory due to the amount of procedurally generated content
Eh, the freedom is what hooked me mixed in with nostalgia. I can admit that nostalgia is a huge influence to a lot of my favorite games.
>Your preference of Oblivion I cannot understand
I'll make a post dedicated to why I prefer Oblivion and why I think a lot of people do or at least are starting to.
>My argument is a mechanical one. I'm willing to agree that they were varied, interesting, etc. or that someone could see them as such. When it comes to mechanics, I feel they're unsatisfactory though
That's fair enough but for me and many others, they were fine mechanically and had a nice balance of linearity and branching narrative paths/usage of skills. Sure it wasn't as reliant as New Vegas, but TES games never were as reliant on Speech Checks etc as Fallout games and they likely never will be as Skyrim showed..
>>331443927
>that quest where you go into the painting
>>331467853
>Your preference of Oblivion I cannot understand. Level scaling ruined the game for me.
Here's some thing I think most people agree Morrowind does worse.
1. Quests Morrowinds quests are simply not consistent. (As somebody said earlier >>331452353). The stealth mechanic makes Morrowinds Thieves guild significantly worse than Oblivions also. Morrowinds core gameplay being so damn dated/clunky really dampers the quests on top of them being fetch quests for the most part. Another good example is >>331449135 that showed the different between Oblivion/Morrowind tackling the same quest.
2. Combat. Not much to say here, the combat is Morrowind is just shit and while it's not good in Oblivion, it's significantly better, same with the archery.
3. NPCs/Dialogue. The vast majority of the NPcs in Morrowind are nothing but tour guides, they offer nothing of value and are just laughably comical over how robotic they seem. This isn't even due to voice acting (as numerous purely text driven games have proven), this is just due to the poor writing of the NPCs and copy/pasted dialogue (literal copy and pasted).
4. Stealth/Archery. Pretty self explanatory, anybody who has played Morrowind/oblivion will discuss just how shit the mechanics are.
5. Dynamic world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEI4yS7sFEw At around the 7-8 minute mark this guy discusses just how static Morrowinds world actually is and how immersion shattering it gets.
The things I would agree that morrowind does better falls more in line magic/spell creation and overall freedom, something that Daggerfall does better than both games imo.
Morrowind was good for its time, I just think it has aged horribly and has too many blatant flaws. Oblivions only glaring flaw really is its level scaling, everything else was more or less mechanically sound by TES standards.
>>331468692
>Genuinely curious but what RPGS?
Most importantly Age of Decadence. It's not without its flaws but I consider it a very important title that actually pushed the boundaries of the genre in certain regards.
Otherwise there's Underrail, Shadowrun: Dragonfall, Pillars of Eternity which was arguably a bit mediocre in comparison with the Infinity Engine games it attempted to mimic but still a fairly competent title I'd describe as "solid".
These are of course all isometric.
>What do you mean by this?
That things that are good in one type of RPG may as well improve another type of RPG.
>Dark Souls is objectively classified as an RPG
There is no such thing as an "objective" classification. There are no video game authorities out there and if someone wants to make a point why I should regard it as an RPG he should make a proper case. To me, Dark Souls is more action game than RPG. I might add that I don't consider System Shock 2 an RPG either.
>>331469158
>I don't think I've ever even played an RPG without some sort of writing before.
It depends on where you draw the line. Take Roguelikes for example. Or some Japanese SRPGs which only have a very basic plot.
>>331444148
>>331443927
My niggas.
>>331469609
Haven't played any of those games, I tried Shadowrun Hong Kong though, couldn't get into it.
>That things that are good in one type of RPG may as well improve another type of RPG.
Maybe, or they might make them feel to similar. I think the last thing Bethesda wants is even more similarities to Fallout. They are different titles owned by one developer and should remain distinct. They already feel too similar.
>There is no such thing as an "objective" classification.
Objective just means observable and the game is observably listed as an RPG by pretty much every relevant medium,
>>331459131
One of the boats at the Imperial City docks is also an inn. If you take a room and spend the night there, you'll wake up in the middle of the sea because some bandits raided the ship and kidnapped everyone.
>>331443927
>>331444148
I am waiting for Skyblivion like a motherfucker man. I've tried to mod out Oblivion in the meantime but I always get meshing issues and I always have to reinstall everything and it's infuriating. I miss Oblivion.
Plus, best OST of the bunch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQsC5IEXDag
>>331470126
Modding Oblivion is really tough, I hear you there. It took me a solid week to get everything working properly. I made a guide with detailed installation instructions here: http://pastebin.com/75fzM5te if you'd like to follow my setup. Have fun!
>>331469985
>Haven't played any of those games
If you have a lot of frustration tolerance I'd really recommend giving Age of Decadence.
You might want to read this review: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/MarkYohalem/20151125/260268/The_Fanatic_and_His_RPG.php
However, it's a game not without its quirks, some people adore it, some people absolutely hate it.
>They are different titles owned by one developer and should remain distinct.
I don't think of these mechanics of being part of a franchise but more being part of the general toolset of RPG developers.
>Objective just means observable and the game is observably listed as an RPG by pretty much every relevant medium,
"Objective" does not just mean observable, it also implies an absolute, intrinsic quality which I disputed. To some people it may be an RPG but to others it's not.
And when it comes to "relevant" media, I'd repeatedly argue that there is no such thing as an authority when it comes to video game genres. My opinion on that matter is as good as any others.
>>331469769
>setting and atmosphere straight from middle earth
>can be fixed with mods
>>331470762
Yes, is there a problem? It's not a lie.
>>331470524
really m8s? Im not intending to be a shitetr but I've had a far easier time modding Oblivion than Skyrim, mostly because Oblivion was mostly a case of drag and dropping files and sort them by BOSS while Skyrim required a shitton of external programs like FNIS and java patchers
>>331470524
thanks anon, i'll give it a try.
>>331470762
It can, tho I don't really see the point. Middle Earth is goath fantasy and people that missed the alien weirdness form Morrowind also got SI. What I dont understand is Skyrim fans calling out on Oblivion for that when one of Skyrims truly unique towns was literally Edoras
>>331470861
The problem for many people is the 3 voice actors, zany races/faces of NPCs and the general feel of the game.
It's hard to get into and particularly too much effort to fix with mods.
>>331469301
>Your definition of a good quest isn't the same as others and comparing mechanically different RPGs doesn't help matters.
Perhaps. If the fundamental misunderstanding has been cleared up, it's all fine in my book.
>Eh, the freedom is what hooked me mixed in with nostalgia. I can admit that nostalgia is a huge influence to a lot of my favorite games.
I must admit that I haven't played Daggerfall when it came out. I read about it in a magazine but they recommended to not touch it yet due to it being completely bug-ridden and having ridiculous hardware requirements. I actually first played Daggerfall after playing Morrowind first.
>>331469516
I can agree about many points here, however, to me the level scaling really made it much less satisfactory. While combat in Morrowind was occasionally quite annoying especially in the beginning, there was a distinct feeling of progress in the game. When at the end of the game you were a master swordsman who could murder enemies that would formerly give you trouble with a single stroke, you felt like you've "become" someone. In Oblivion, this satisfactory element was not present. RPGs are a lot about this sense of progress to me. This is also what I liked when it comes to Baldur's Gate or the Gothic series, which are both games which initially kick your ass quite badly but allow you to get back at the game in the second half.
>>331470762
If it was straight from middle earth it might actually be good. I feel like people who use this comparison have never actually read LOTR
>>331471387
I was making a graphical comparison with the movies. No one said anything about similarity of quests, lore, enemies or narrative.
>>331471339
>voice actors, potato faces and game feel can all be fixed by mods
>wahhh too much effort for me!
Lmao fuck off
>>331448118
That pic is an excellent description of Skyrim quests vs. Oblivion quests. The only thing it's missing is that the dungeon you get sent to in Skyrim will probably be randomized, meaning that the quests often don't even have their own dungeons specifically made for them.
>>331471681
Instead of being an asshole, you could at least just provide a pastebin of compatible and recommended mods to prove your point, you know?
I say this out of interest of modding Oblivion as well.
>Daedric Shrine quests
>If you have Shivering Isles and started SI before doing Sheogorath's it changes the dialogue
>"Praying to yourself, sir? Well you ARE the Daedric Prince of Madness, I suppose it's not that out of the question"
>>331472901
HASKILL YA CHEEKY FUCKER
