Do we all agree that this is what killed WoW ?
Post your reasons.
>Wasted potential on Uldum
>Goblins
>Power creep (20k hp at level 80, 100k at level 85)
>Bringing back a boss from Wc2 with very little teasing
I agree it was a shit expansion, but not for your reasons. Goblins are great, the fuck are you talking about? And power creep happened before Cata, it doesn't matter if it was more extreme, it's the same shit regardless.
To me Cata was a fresh experience coming from Vanilla WoW to level up a new character and experience a new world again, which was fun for the one go around... Now I severely miss what the old zones used to be like. Now I am getting depressed, especially because I still go back for every expansionand I will again for Legion. Please kill me.
mop killed WoW though
There's already a DAE WOW NOSTALGIA XD? thread
>>331351138
>>331400764
>Do we all agree that this is what killed WoW ?
Why are you morons always pointing at changes as the reason why WoW "died". Not that its dead, but why you dont like it anymore.
The reason is TOO FEW CHANGES. The gameplay has been the same for over a FUCKING DECADE.
The same gameplay, the same mechanics, so little changed. Of course you wont play the exact same game for multiple hours a day nearly daily for such a large portion of your life and not get bored.
People who havent played WoW for years and only not get into it are greatly enjoying it. The issue is that people got bored of it, because you cant play the same game for 50000 hours and not get bored of its stale mechanics.
And no, adding a green fireball or a red frostbolt doesnt count as new mechanics.
things that killed wow and why
>flying mounts
destroyed the sense of being in a world with other people, ended world pvp (except people dropping on each other's heads when they know for certain that they can win), and left people just flying from point a to point b in an empty sky
>queues for everything
well now that flying mounts have made everything a boring pointless straight line instead of a journey, why not just cut out the middle man and have you teleport everywhere? Isn't this a fun massively multiplayer world?
>making all those queues cross realm
Hey, now that we just teleport to dungeons and bgs, why not just have you do it with a pool of a few million strangers so you never see the same person twice, never get to know anyone, never make any acquaintances, and eliminate the last vestiges of server community that existed after all the above changes
These things happened over the course of TBC and Wrath, Cata was just the first expansion that was trash from day 1
>>331400764
Did you actually play the expac? It was the downfall, but not because of your shit reason. It was because of LFR, and Blizz caving in and dumbing down otherwise pretty great dungeons and raids. The expac was actually looking pretty damn solid on release.
>>331400986
Eh, I think the redesign of old zones was the least shitty thing in the expansion. It needed to be done, it was just poorly executed.
Too many rectons (the Defias one, for example) took place in this expansion with all their explanation in supplemental material.
Goblins starting zone is awful, I think it's even worse than Vanilla Durotar.
>>331401204
LFR never really bothered me, I usually play WoW for the single-player and some dungeons.
(yes I know, fuckin casual)
>>331400764
>Power creep
Uh...wasn't Cata the expac where they explicitly tried to address power creep by reducing all the bloat and dialing the numbers back?
>>331400764
Lazy effort saving changes and band aid fixes (making everything cross realm instead of consolidating the literally dozens of empty servers) introduced in wrath ruined wow.
Cata was trash but aside from killing the talent tree and replacing it with an imaginary talent tree that had 0 choices in it and you were just going through the motions, I liked most of the changes. The revamp to Paladins was much better than the faceroll they had been in Wrath. Finally giving hunters focus instead of having them use mana because the class was basically unfinished on launch was great and made them not shitty to play.
New race class combos were cool and necessary(tauren paladins and troll druids were stupid though)
>>331401106
Yeah I agree. They haven't moved along the core gameplay in significant ways.
I think the engine might be too old and intractable to really overhaul things.
Legion for me looks to be the first expansion I will skip.
>>331401414
That was WoD
it started the downfall. i actually think replacing ulduar with that shitty trial thing was worse though.
i thought no flying in WoD was a good idea too, made the world seem bigger.
Can you imagine being new to WoW and having to slog through 100 levels and like five expansions to get to the endgame?
I suspect any people with genuine interest in the future of the game have long ago been marginalized by the money men.
>>331401204
10m was easier than 25m which led to tons of guilds breaking up and kind of fucked the community
it might've been ok if they stuck with the Wrath system but they didn't
>>331400764
None of those are the reasons it killed wow....
LFR, converging realms in most zones (at least I think this started in cata) a shitty final raid tier, and dumbing down the good content they did have was what started the decline. LFR is probably the main offender.
>>331401664
The wrath system seems superior to the current Mythic fuckfest.
>>331401469
They can add mechanics with this engine.
Like some force push ability for priest.
Like throwing one enemy at another for warriors.
Like an attack that hurts both you and your opponent to paladins.
Like linking totems with a snare so enemies trip when they move for shaman.
But they really need a new engine to make the combat more action oriented, make it revolve more around player skill and not as much around character skill.
You can keep the stats, damage, armor, all of that stuff of course. Just make it so hitting/missing revolves around player skill, introduce manual dodging and blocking to the game.
This will revive it, since it would be much more involved to fight things.
>>331401752
i liked the wrath system because you could do 25m raid nights then try to do 10m on off days. it gave you shit to do.
>>331401869
That would require a new game. It's too far gone for that level of change
>>331401915
This
I played WoW for it's entire lifespan.
Every xpac until WoD had new boss mechanics, new content, new features, and new and interesting things that kept me playing.
MoP is actually my favorite xpac. It had some of the most interesting raids, good dungeons, challenge modes, coolest mounts, lots of shit to do in the open world, garbage new race but a great new class, fun PvP meta, and pet battles were actually a pretty nice way to waste time and make a shit load of gold.
It wasn't until WoD that I legitimately stopped having fun because of no content, garbage raids, and garrisons.
>>331401869
I would honestly love a Wow sequel like that.
Something with the fidelity and responsiveness of an FPS with the existing RPG mechanics we know and love.
>>331401653
Endgame isn't the whole game.
There is enjoyable gameplay all the way to the end.
New players shouldn't feel the need to rush to end game.
>>331401869
Pipe dream at best. Real-time action combat will never fly for multiplayer online games without local servers because latency would be hell.
>>331401983
>all spells target ground or direction
>all attacks have to collide with the target to do damage
>manual dodging and blocking
>no heatseeking projectiles, can move out of the way of anything
>line of sight and hiding behind trees or terrain a very viable strategy
>tank walking in front of a projectile to absorb it an advanced play
Wasnt possible a dozen years ago, but today everyone has fast enough internet. Except australians, but who cares lol.
>>331401971
this post sums it up pretty much.
>>331402059
>Endgame isn't the whole game.
Wishful thinking. The majority of the game content is exactly in the late game.
There are no level 20 heroic modes. There are no level 30 raids. The battlegrounds for these levels are full of twinks, you can only fight them if you yourself have a max level character to pour gold into them. Crafting requires levelups to advance, costs money that you cant accumulate at low level.
Basically most of the game requires you to have a max level character to access.
The only thing you can do while leveling is... leveling.
>>331402059
Yeah, that's true. But the stuff people are seeing in streams and youtube videos is often endgame. And I don't know about you but I had my best social experiences at endgame with a guild.
I just think it's a shame that they constructed it in such a linear way, where you must go through all the expansions.
I would have liked a system where each expansion covers the same levels 60-70, and each xpac is side-by-side with the old ones. At the commencement of each xpac your level would be reduced to 60 for the xpac zones, and you would have to level through the xpac zones if you wanted to raid in them.
Imagine how cool it would be if you could actually go and raid BC raids again, for top-level gear. Sure it would be a lot of work to keep those dungeons and raids tuned, but it's better than all that content being effectively dead.
I find it curious that they say "We created all this great content (like Naxx) which nobody ever got to see!"
Yet, every two years, a new expansion which wipes out the last. New players will never see BC or Wrath raids.
>>331402138
Definitely that's what they should do. They should leverage the technology of huge data providers like Netflix and perhaps partner with ISP's to provide local hosting so that players get a low ping on their server. I think it's definitely possible but I think Blizzard are a bit too corporate to really come up with something innovative like that again.
>>331402059
Lets list all WoW content in groups, and see how much of it requires a max level character to properly enjoy:
>story quests - fine for all levels
>daily quests - high level only
>dungeons - fine for all levels
>heroic dungeons - high level only
>raids - high level only
>battlegrounds - high level only, because twinks
>crafting - high level only, because gold costs and level restrictions, and low skill recipes being garbage
So 3 out of 7 content boxes are max level only, and two more are recommended to do with a high level character existing.
Am I missing something? Havent played WoW in years.
>>331402318
>multiple level 30 zones
>multiple level 30 dungeons
>multiple brackets for PVP that isn't ranked so losing will still make you progress
when you run a dungeon at level 30 you dont go "oh man i want to gear up and do a harder version of this dungeon!"
because by then you're already level 40 and doing something else.
the "majority" of the game's content is not at the end game, however you will be spending the majority of your time at maximum level so they throw more shit there for you to do.
>>331402318
Who cares if there aren't low level hardmodes lol.
Also they separated BGs from twinks a long time ago. If you want to twink in BGs you have to disable leveling and you'll get sent to a disabled levelers only BG queue.
Crafting isn't really gameplay.
Yeah but leveling is a large part of the game, because you get to see the world. And as you get a higher level you can see more of the world, more of the dungeons, more of the raids. You shouldn't really hate leveling unless you've done it a lot of times.
>>331402318
That would be great, I really do find it a waste to invalidate all of their old content with every expansion. This timewalking stuff is a good way of bringing it back though, they should do timewalking raids.
>>331402669
Dungeons&Dragons online had difficulties for every dungeon, regardless of level, and it was a much better system.
WoW can have dungeons (and rewards) scaled down for solo runs, normal 5 man, and a heroic hard version. Introduce some new purple loot, all purples are now lategame stuff.
It would be cool if I could run a heroic level 30 dungeon and get some purple staff that I will throw away after 10 levels. Just the fact that I had it is nice, its good player experience.
>>331401869
I don't think combat has ever been the issue. For most people, myself included, I'll be happy with combat in an MMO as long as I can jump while attacking, have lots of buttons to push, and can occasionally do something that lets me flop around or run really fast.
Right now the problem is mostly the format.
Every aspect of how the player interacts with the world and other players has been boiled down to it's simplest and most automated form. It no longer feels like there's a world existing around the content anymore - everything outside of the raids, dungeons, and PvP is just a waiting room. There's nothing that encourages you to find new experiences or make friends with other people, there's nothing that challenges or amazes you, nothing you have to work towards.
After WoD, I'm not even going to try Legion. I have no interest in it whatsoever. I have read nothing about it, watched no videos, and I probably never will unless someone I trust gives me a seriously rave recommendation.
WoW is dead to me now.
>>331402881
>I don't think combat has ever been the issue.
Combat is the only gameplay WoW has.
Combat has been the same since the start.
People say they are tired of WoW.
1+1 = WoW's combat is bad.
Still better than XIV.
Why is XIV's leveling experience so slow and shit?
>>331401042
MOP was bretty gud aside from panda faggotry
>>331402740
>Who cares if there aren't low level hardmodes lol.
Anyone who played an expansion that wasn't built from the ground up to be a mad sprint to reach endgame, and enjoyed it
>>331402881
>I don't think combat has ever been the issue.
Combat has always been the issue, its just that it took years for people to get bored of the exploration, the Diablo syndrome loot collection and watching numbers go up, to minmax and optimize every build, profession, gear and so on.
Combat always sucked, and now that combat is all thats left to do the game sucks as well.
>>331402138
Isn't what you described pretty much Guild Wars 2?
>>331403403
Guild Wars 2 sadly made every character class the same, and its setting and world arent as good as Warcraft's.
I want distinct classes, I like having a healer and a mage and a paladin, and I want the cartoony Warcraft universe.
Also I want more skills, Guild Wars 2 has too few at a time.
>>331400764
>Bringing back a boss from Wc2 with very little teasing
Are you retarded?
Vanilla, TBC and Wrath all had plots building up Deathwing. What they ended up doing was retarded, but they literally spent 3 expansions building it up.
>>331401112
>flying mounts destroyed world pvp
Why is this still perpetuated? World pvp was dead way before flying mounts were a thing. People were complaining about it in vanilla, and blizzard tried to fix it with things like EPL towers and lolsand. You should know how successful those things were.
City raids died when dishonorable kills were introduced, so at the same time when WSG was introduced. After that, there was some world pvp left because sitting in Ashenvale/Barrens waiting for the queue to pop up was boring, which led to some world pvp in the area. It didn't take long for the battlemasters to move to capitals, and after that people would simply sit in the capital while waiting for the queue to pop up. This was when world pvp basically died. The only thing left was ganking in some leveling areas, mainly STV.
>>331402138
Firefall
Tera
Guild Wars 2
Wildstar
BDO, to a certain extent
A lot of MMOs are doing this now, anon. The combat in MMOs has improved drastically in the past 5 years or so. Why aren't they popular for their gameplay? Hm, anon?
Oh, right. It's because EVERY OTHER ASPECT OF THOSE GAMES IS UTTER GARBAGE.
It's almost like systems design and QoL matter.
>>331403719
>EPL towers and lolsand
Why did they never review that kind of shit?
>>331403719
>World pvp was dead way before flying mounts were a thing.
>City raids died when dishonorable kills were introduced, so at the same time when WSG was introduced.
Yes, battlegrounds ruined world PvP.
I dont know about dishonorable kills. I would've preferred if they made it so instead of the DK thing, for each player (regardless of level) that you kill you'd be worth more and more honor to bring down, so that when some ganker shows up at a leveling zone, there will be a lot of people willing to travel there to kill him.
That way it would balance things a bit ,it would create the illusion of a conflict going on.
And overall, its always better to reward, rather than to punish. Dont punish the ganker, reward people who would kill him.
>>331403513
What you have described is Wildstar.
Also known as the most boring and unsuccessful MMO of the last decade.
>>331403827
Wasnt there a Wrath dungeon that required you to control some PvP objectives so you can enter it?
Thats a revision of the Stratholme PvP towers concept.
>>331403896
I played the beta. It was laggy, buggy and the world setting was boring.
The gameplay was much better than WoW's, as anyone who played it should confirm.
>>331403803
Its almost as if WoW is too established, and Blizzard too powerful.
Half the games that WoW suffocated under its shadow are better than it.
All of the games you listed have better combat than WoW.
>>331403974
>Wasnt there a Wrath dungeon that required you to control some PvP objectives so you can enter it?
>Thats a revision of the Stratholme PvP towers concept.
I dunno, did they? I do remember Nagrand with that PVP hub. That was cool and people did engage in PVP there. It wasn't for a raid though.
There was of course shit like the PVP bosses at Wintergrasp and shit. That was a bit of an advancement that I was glad for.
>>331400764
What killed WoW for me was my guild mates quitting in Cata.
>>331401983
>fidelity and responsiveness of an FPS with the existing RPG mechanics we know and love
That's exactly what Firefall was originally before Red 5 went fullest fucking retard and destroyed the game.
>>331403513
I agree with you. The mechanics of combat and skill system of GW2 weren't bad, but abandoning the trinity - despite their noble intent - was a massive misstep. Combat just becomes a clusterfuck, everyone's self-reliant and there's no diversity to speak of.
>>331400764
Wrath of the Lich King began pretty much every process that ruined WoW. Especially in its second half.
Cataclysm finished the job.
>Easier quests
>Easier everything
>Looking for Dungeon
>Difficulty settings for raids (this one is debatable to me with just 2, more than that is absolute shit though)
>Fucking heirlooms
>Le meme """""""""""""funny""""""""""""" bosses like the entire abomination wing of ICC (compare that shit to Naxxramas with goddamn Thaddius)
>Catering to retards in general
Don't get me wrong, I still liked Wrath for the most part. But Blizzard was already working on ruining the game then.
>>331404115
Halaa, that was the nagrand town.
You can buy a really cool 2H sword with a natural purple glow at Halaa to this day. It's a great transmog one.
>>331404029
GW2 combat was shit. Tera combat was fun for PvE, not so fun for PvP. Never played the other three.
>>331404150
I haven't heard much of that game.
Let me guess, it was ruined for commercial justifications?
>>331402881
how I feel exactly. It feels like a damn single player game that hamfists you into grouping to do endgame. And not even that, with the difficulty of everything you can be brain dead and stand in the fire and still get carried through any and everything
Rolled a Hunter since it was the only class I haven't played yet and the first thought of Lone Wolf was pretty cool.. and then Markmanship was almost as bad as vanilla mage rotations
>>331404115
>>331403974
Wintergrasp's raid, you mean? "Raid" - it was basically a straight path to a loot pinata boss that people PUGed before PUG raids were a thing. They added extra loot pinata bosses with each significant patch. But yeah, Wintergrasp was pretty baller.
>>331404329
Yeah I mean I wasn't a big fan of the "raid" or the PVP. It wasn't such a great idea but to be honest I'm thankful they tried at least that much.
>>331402648
I find professions much easier to just do as I level to be honest
Sure, powerleveling is a thing, no doubt, but it feels like wasted time compared to going a few feet out of your way to grab an herb or just pick quests that have beasts to skin.
>>331404029
Anon, none of those games were smothered by WoW. They failed because they were fundamentally bad games that no one wants to play.
Firefall took the most drastic turn for the unplayable any game has ever seen in the history of the industry. It failed because the developers are retarded. It is horrifyingly bad in it's current and final state.
Tera is the most unoptimized piece of shit game on the planet. It has awful servers, and the worst loot / crafting RNG bullshit systems of all time. The QoL in that game is exactly the same as it was 6 years ago on release. Do you know what that game is now? It's an anime chatroom. No one actually plays the game anymore.
GW2 is maybe an exception. It's still moderately successful because it didn't do anything explicitly offensive or horrible. It's just boring.
Wildstar was so extraordinarily bad that it full-on died within the first month after release. That's gotta be a new record.
BDO doesn't really count because it only released like 2 weeks ago. It's okay, but it has NO CONTENT syndrome.
Even if WoW was dead, none of these games would've been successful.
>>331404365
I liked it. Performing in PvP and the raid actually got me scouted by someone into a progression raiding guild at the time, not long before Ulduar hit. Stuck with them for the rest of the expansion - some of the best times I had with the game. I think the good thing about Wintergrasp was that it was server specific - brought the sense of community back that was siphoned away when they introduced cross-server queuing for everything.
>>331403719
i always felt that battlegrounds should have given minimal or no honor at all
they should have existed purely for the reputation rewards. av grind was okay but wsg and ab exalted took literal months if you didnt run premades
WORLD PVP should have been the place to get honor. sure it would have meant flightmasters everywhere get camped and deathsquads roaming every lvl 50+ area but the game is called world of WARCRAFT after all
just imagine how pvp would have played out if the devs made it that way
>>331400764
>Goblins
Goblins are fine, werewolves with swords and wizardrobes pissed me off more. The starting zone was cool, but everything about them after that was down hill.
>Wasted potential on Uldum
They really squandered that one didnt they? They could have made a whole expansion out of an Egyptian theme, even a new proper cat like Egyptian playable race unlike those shitty worgen or 4 legged freaks in Uldum.
>>331401247
>Eh, I think the redesign of old zones was the least shitty thing in the expansion. It needed to be done, it was just poorly executed.
I dont think they had to redesign them, just improve them abit. The whole "fuck the entire world up and start the story at the point of the Cataclysm and have it stay that way forever" is what pissed me off lore wise.
>Reversing their decision on hard heroics
>Introducing LFR
>Even more shop shit
>Even more leapfrogging content
>Wasting Uldum
>Fucking up lore
>Dragon Soul
>Ridiculous power creep
>Shitty uninspired legendaries
>Shitty new talent tree
>Extremely fast levelling
>hand holding to the extreme
Yup, worst fucking expansion. Dedicated mostly to bringing in new players and not giving a fuck about their old ones.
Only good thing about it was transmog.
>>331404545
The only MMO I've played in the past 5 years that I've actually had a lot of fun playing was Skyforge for it's endgame PvE.
It has lots of content, good combat, interesting and distinct classes, great end game PvE, and the potential to get decent PvP if they ever fix balance.
But it's dying, and will stay dead. Because of the monetization and prestige systems. Despite all of the great things about it, the format is horrifyingly bad.
Systems design is the most important aspect of MMOs, anon. I can't stress this enough. Good combat is nice to have, but it doesn't matter if the systems actively fuck the player in the ass.
>>331404765
They did though, in classic.
>getting to gromgol in stranglethorn vale as 30 lvl
>fucking three 60 lvl alliances fuck shit up
>15 low levels unite and help npc guards defend
>almost a hour of action
>go on hunting on alliance with some pals to revenge what happened
>alliance unite too to fuck us up
>rinse and repeat
>>331404904
The actual Catacylsm was cool, though, anon. And being able to use flying mounts in old zones. It made exploring fun again.
I also had a lot of fun playing Rated Battlegrounds before it went all wonky. I love organized PvP.
Yeah, the raids weren't great, but I still had some fun in Dragon Soul with friends. The last two fights were like nothing that had ever been in the game before.
It also had the coolest Tier bonus effects ever. Giving all of the tank and support classes extra raid cooldowns was cool as fuck. I always felt like a boss popping Vampiric blood to protect the whole raid.
The changes to combat were also pretty fun. I enjoyed every class and spec I played during that xpac. They felt polished and fresh.
>>331404991
Low level raids were also a thing at crossroads and westfall
