ITT: main characters that everyone hates but you like .
I'll start: I never minded Vaan, maybe cause I likes the game so much, but I was surprised later to find out everyone hates Vaan.
I like seeing how butthurt gamers get over Worst FF game + lowest HP character.
>>322601732
I would much prefer a different lead to him. Hes just a bit of an idiot as well as not terribly important in his own game.
>>322601732
I liked Tidus alot.
I might have been able to tolerate Vaan if his american VA wasn't such a fag.
I always viewed him as A Bilbo Baggins-esqe character myself. The players view point into the world, not to important to the plot except for a couple moments.
>>322601732
Same here OP. I actually liked vaan. A lot.
>>322601732
He's just "there". His brother would have been a better MC since he was more directly tied to the game's plot.
He's more likable in Dissidia though.
>>322603731
Bilbo was clearly the most important character in the Hobbit though.
>>322604227
I didn't see how. As I recall it was the dwarves who were carrying most of the plot. Then again it's been years since I read the book so I might remember things fuzzy...
I enjoyed Luke fon Fabre from the start. Having the main character be an utterly terrible person was an interesting change of pace for a JRPG and presented the opportunity for huge character development. Makes me wonder if some of the knee-jerk reactions were people trying to self-insert rather than view the main character as a character.
>>322604410
well the same can be said about another FF protag, but I dont want it to be become "that" kind of thread.
>>322604398
Plot isn't interchangeable with story. The plot of Hobbit is that the dwarves are trying to reclaim their mountain. The story is more diverse, with Bilbo being the viewpoint character and more focus being put on how he perceives and is affected by participating in the dwarves' quest.
>>322604517
Hey, I like Squall!
>>322604692
Thats actually a good point
>>322601732
van is more likable in anything but his original game.
as for me, I liked Tidus from ffx
I don't really think Squall's great, but the writing in FFVIII is so bad in general that he still manages to be the best character.
Quistis is fucking atrocious, her character is all over the place and she never gets reprimanded in any way for her fuckups
>better yell at Rinoa for trying to be helpful!
>let's risk jeopardising this super important mission because my feelings are hurt and I want to apologise right now instead of waiting an hour
>Squall, how dare you protect these defenceless children when your more than capable waifu is in trouble?! It's not like I could help her in any way, despite owning a whip that might reach her!
>Squall, I can't believe you waited for backup like a sensible person! Why didn't you run headfirst on your own to stop them from imprisoning Rinoa?
Seriously, fuck Quistis. Sure, she's kinda hot, but that's all she has going for her.
>>322601732
Vaan is an amazing written character, and gets a lot of flak for "not being the main character" in the game he stars when you follow him throughout the game.
>>322601732
90% of people who claim to hate Vaan would not if he wore a shirt.
>>322605864
I couldn't believe how much more likeable Vaan was in FFTA2. Giving him a shirt and an airship made him so much more interesting. The lack of a poorly compressed voice probably helps too.
>>322601732
>main character thread
>posts Vaan
way to fail your own topic OP, but yeah, I didn't think Vaan was as bad as many made him out to be. I just fucking love FF12 so much and hope we're getting some infos on FF12 HD soon
>>322606034
>Vaan is an amazing written character
Im pretty sure the writers forgot he was in the party for most of the game.
He's close to Freya in terms of characters the writers forgot existed.
>>322606230
>posts Ashe
Balthier literally says that he's the main character right away.
>>322606180
penelo is the most nothing character in ff history.
I heard like van she's better in the DS sequel, but still I cant stand that her only thing is "existing"
Vaan isn't bad, but he isn't good either. He's isn't particularly fleshed out or interesting. I can see people hate him for looking silly but there isn't really anything wrong with his character.
>>322606159
His redesign looks significantly better, but he's still more shallow than a Fire Emblem character.
You know he was put in the game halfway through development because of demographics, right? His only purpose was to not have a shirt.
>>322606180
Japanese dub acknowledges that by making them sound like complete plebs. Because they are.
>>322601732
>>322606230
Playing through it right now
just got my first summon
Is there any point in weapon variety? I just gold gold armor/helm/shield and a warhammer for my whole party, as they are the current items that give the most strengh and deal the most damage for auto-attacks
The only bad thing is flying enemies but there aren't many as of now and I can always switch to bows if I really feel the need to
Also why do guns have so little damage compared to bows? Do they attack faster somehow? what's the point?
And am I fucking myself over later on if I'm going with a 100% auto-atttack phisical party, rather than having at least one dedicated "mage"? All of them have 3 levels of white magic, and some time magic / green magicIs there any meaningful difference between characters, other than the starting Licences?
thanks in advance
>>322606905
>I just gold gold armor(...)
I just bought*
>>322606905
I think there are minimal differences in base stats but they are so small they literally have no effect on anything at all. Just use the characters you like the most because everyone can do anything and everything in this game thanks to how the license board works.
Maybe most pointless character ever in a JRPG, together with Penelo. Ashe and Basch were the real main characters but they added Vaan just so they could have a fuckboy protag.
Also FFXII is shit.
>>322607078
you know you game sucks when Fucking tidus is a better main
>>322606905
Welcome to vanilla FFXII. Everyone is exactly the same, quickening animations and base stats aside.
I actually fucked myself over by having a s&b/heavy//gun/heavy//rod/mystic setup because that's not boring and straightforward enough.
Get the quickenings.
>>322601732
What's the point in that tiny vest he's wearing? What possible purpose could it serve?
Is it even a vest? If not, then what is it?
>>322607209
Its a JRPG jacket
its there for style, not practicality
>>322601732
hey, at least he isn't Tidus
>>322607209
It's an ornamental covering while still displaying the goods.
Vaan worked the streets.
Bangaas were his regular customers.
>>322606454
Just because a character says something doesn't mean you have to take it as a fact.
>>322607076
I see. But I'm still curious about the usefulness of guns over bows since they have much lower attack, can anyone explain?
>>322607162
>Get the quickenings
I have them on 2 of my party members, just 1 missing.
My licence board is identical on all characters. I aimed for Swiftness x3 (total of 30% ATB bar reduction = 30% more damage) and BattleLore x3 for more physical atk damage, as well as PotionLore x3 for quick&effective potion spam in hard battles. And I can cure any ailment with any party member
I think this is the most auto-mode build I could go for, just hope there isn't a physical-immune ultra boss down the line or I'm fucked
Nepugia.
>>322606905
You fucked up by not playing the IZJS release, where you have to pick restricting classes for your characters and long melee weapons like poles and spears can hit flying enemies.
>>322607723
>physical-immune
Only as a temporary ability.
>>322604410
Luke is legitimately my favourite Tales protag aside from Yuri, because nobody can compete with Yuri.
I liked asshole Luke, mostly because he was unconventional and funny, and then he went through so much shit and had so much character development over the course of the game that by the end it was impossible not to like him.
>>322608212
you're stuck with your choice. I wouldn't really recommend it for first timers, but it is imho the definite way of playing ff12
>>322607723
Guns don't really compare properly to the other weapon types. Their damage is calculated differently and they ignore defense, so they'll deal way more damage than their low stats would suggest.
Early in the game they tend to get outdamaged by most other weapons but as enemies get stronger the advantages of guns become more obvious.
>>322607723
I think Guns ignore armour
>>322608212
Stuck forever, so choose wiselyyour picks aren't actually that big of a deal, the game doesn't become unwinnable even if you pick the same class for everyone.
>>322606905
>just equiping hammers because they give the highest attack
You should be able to notice that hammers deal random damage.
>Is there a point in weapon variety
I mean, you don't have to have everyone equipped differently. It's up to you, really.
>Why do guns deal so little damage
Because you're not using a very good gun.
>Do they attack faster
They're one of the slowest weapons, actually.
>What's the point?
They ignore defense. The fomalhaut will deal 3000+ consistently, even more with buffs/augments. Works well with units that might not deal much damage otherwise.
>Do I need a dedicated mage
That's not for me to answer. If you don't seem to have any trouble without one, then don't worry about it.
>>322606905
Despite hammers and axe having the highest attack, they're also unstable compared to other weapons. One time they hit for 200 and the next time they hit for 140, while a stable weapon hit for 180 everytime. Some weapons also have additional effects like inflicting status effects or such. One-handed weapons let you use a shield. Guns are slow and do low damage, but the damage is fixed and does not take stats into consideration, so even a level 1 character does decent damage with them.
You do not need a dedicated mage at all, it can be useful to learn black magic anyway since it can hit flans and flying enemies. Heavy armor boosts your strenght but light armor boosts your HP, so light is good for a tank if you want one.
Japan had a rerelease called International Zodiac Job System (IZJS for short) which makes the game far more interesting. There are 12 jobs and each character can be given one job but can never switch. The job decides what your license board is like, so a White Mage character will only be able to equip Mystic Armor and rods. This is technically more restricting than the previous system, but they've rebalanced the game so it's worth it. For exemple, almost every boss in the original is immune to breaks because they're very effective, but now that breaks are limited to some jobs, bosses can now be affected by them which balances it out. There's also a bit more difference between characters due to their original abilities. For exemple, Vaan knows Steal from the start even before he gets assigend a job. This means that if you assign him to a job that can't learn Steal, like White Mage, then you'll have a White Mage with Steal.
You can play IZJS in english with a patch, you can easily found a torrent for a pre-patched iso if you want to give it a try. You'll have to restart since you can't carry over your save, and it's a bit more difficult tough not by much, it's far more interesting and I heavily recommend playing it over the original version.
>>322606905
Also, guns can equip different ammunition that have varying effects and properties. They're pretty damn good.
>>322608610
>I wouldn't really recommend it for first timers
>I recommend first timers waste a hundred hours playing the shitty boring one before playing the actually good game
>>322609629
They're both boring anyway.
After finally playing through FF10 for the first time, I honestly don't get the hate for this guy. In fact I'd go as far as to say he's one of the most realistically well-written JRPG characters if not the most so. Just goes to show that all people want from JRPGs are bland Mary Sues with zero personality they can self-insert as instead of a fleshed-out character with a broad range of emotions, flaws and development.
>>322605997
I admit I used to hate Squall for being such an angry cunt all the time, but after playing FF8 again I realized I would be no different were I constantly surrounded by annoying retards like you described. I'm sure that has mostly to do with 8's writing being terrible even by FF standards.
>>322612036
His design is offensive to every cell in my body, but other than that, he's a pretty good protagonist. Really, the only thing people can point at to show how bad he is is the forced laugh scene, and if you fucking played the fucking game, you'd know the laugh is intentionally forced.
One of the best FFs, in my opinion.
>went in expecting some crybaby emo faggot
>he starts off as a tryhard edgelord but gets over it by the time you leave Midgar
>eventually learn of his motives later and can get behind them
Just goes to show that people who shit on Cloud either never played the game and are basing their opinions off of internet memes or supplementary garbage like Advent Children and Kingdom Hearts, or they did play the game but with a closed mind predetermined to hate on it anyway, or anyone who isn't upbeat and chipper 24/7 despite all the hardships they went through is apparently an emo.
Sephiroth is a shit villain though.
>>322612404
I'm just glad Nomura kept his belt fetish to a minimum here. And yeah the laugh scene is always taken out of context.
>>322612036
>>322612404
This. Tidus is a fucking teenager thrown into a world he never even knew existed and told that his dead, abusive, alcoholic father is a giant sea-demon.
How the fuck would you react if you were seventeen? Tidus is honestly one of the best FF protags in terms of writing and characterization. Even if I personally find him annoying, I have to admit that he is unbelievably realistic and the only 3-dimensional MC of the entire series to date.
>>322612036
FF8 writing a shit.
>oh nose we were all orphans together and grew up together and we all amne~sia'd???
>let's go on an adventure BACK IN TIME!
>>322612762
You're pretty much dumb.
Even after leaving Midgar, there are tons of scenes where he just collapses on the floor and holds his head.
>>322613361
I meant he stops being some tryhard "I don't give a fuck about anything or anyone I just want muh money" badass.
MGS2 Raiden was great. Way better than the edgelord he is in MGS4 and MGR.
Had a lot of fun playing as him and didn't get butthurt because I didn't play as Snake. It was actually a genius idea to see Solid Snake from another perspective.
>>322614260
There's only one perspective from which we need to see Snake.
>>322612036
>>322612404
>>322613280
No one ever said Tidus was unrealistic or badly written. He's unlikeable. Being realistic does not make you likeable.
![latest[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/N7ouyzz.jpg "latest[1].jpg")
She's such a qt
>It's been nearly a decade and retards still fail to understand Vaan was the most important character in the game after Ashe
>>322613361
>being in physical paid = emo
>>322614618
Then enlighten us anon
How is Vaan important?
not a joke, I seriously want you opinion
>>322601732
Vaan is constantly getting shat on for no reason.
He's not stealing a spotlight in story like some other shitty FF protagonists like Lighting.
He's forced to buy shit for entire party while everyone else chills in local taverns.
He's one of the main reasons Ashe stops being a revenge-seeking retard and starts actually thinking about what is good for her country.
And he actually visibly matures up during the course of a game.
>>322614618
>it has been nearly a decade & faggots still don't understand Vaan is a fag
>>322601732
I really thought Vaan was a great character. He was exactly what he needed to be, and no more. Too many characters these days have too much "fluff" that really detracts from them instead of adding.
He's also the most fun character in Dissidia Duodecim and Dissidia Arcade. I fucking love crushing scrubs with Red Spiral/Calamity Drive, it's not even fair.
>>322614493
I like him more than the cardboard cutouts with zero lines of dialogue.
>>322614260
Agreed
>>322614430
...Agreed
>>322612404
I want to second this. Both his design being horrible, and his situation being unexpectedly relatable. Hes also a pretty nice guy most of the time.
>>322614493
Well-written characters aren't under any obligation to be likable. You should be able to appreciate the character for his depth and humanity, not complain that he's not like you or your best friend.
Nearly 10 years later and I'm still mad basch wasn't the main character.fuck balthier and vaan
I really liked him
>>322614260
Raiden would had been fine in MGR without the ripper mode.
Its call and all but sometimes it does feel like you can hear linkin park in the background
>>322614921
False dichotomy
>>322615009
Moving the goalposts
>>322615097
cool*
>>322615035
Balthier is way better than pretty bland Basch.
I want Matsuno to do a game with similar protagonist, someone who escaped politic bullshit to live a free life just to be drawn into it once more.
Shit decisions in past, but still the best captain
>>322615063
why? he does nothing but be a little bitch when shepard beats him
also never forget cereal thievery
>>322615169
>Moving the goalposts
He's absolutely right, and you should be able to understand that concept if you aren't underage.
>>322614757
He's literally the prime reason Ashe doesn't repeat the mistakes of her forefathers and decides to tell the gods to go fuck themselves, his interference results in Penelo getting to meet Larsa so his character arc kicks off, and he influences a bunch of other shit too.
>>322615169
To be honest pham, its not like you've made a very compelling or thorough cause about him being "unlikable either". Spouting off a bunch of debate buzzwords when your entire argument is "hes unlikable" is poor form.
>>322614757
No Vaan means no positive character development for Ashe and a guarenteed bad end, essentially
>>322615169
Logical fallacy I just read about number 2302523.
It's not moving the goalposts, you idiot, the thread is about protagonists individual people like that most people hate. I like Tidus as a protagonist. That doesn't mean I want him to be my best friend. Same way I like Jaime Lannister - awesome character, not exactly best friend material.
>>322607723
Formalhault, the best gun with around 50atk will deal the same damage as a bow with 90atk.
But yeah, when I played the regular version, I only used crossbows, bombs, ninja blades, rods and poles once for eye candy, and then switched to everyone using greatswords and zodiac spear.
Actually, on my first run ever I went through all the game with Vaan using sword and shield, Ashe with the sword and shield until I got katanas 2h swords and spears, and Penelo with bow acting as a support/healing. It was fun.
>>322615482
>>322615549
its a shame that the only thing most people remember him for are his short lived memes
>>322615359
>ITT: main characters that everyone hates but you like .
Emphasis on LIKE
Saying it's fine he's unlikeable because he's well-written is irrelevant when we're discussing the likeabilitity of characters.
>>322615524
I never made an argument that he's unlikeable - that's entirely subjective anyway so "arguing" it is retarded. The thread is about hated characters that people like, then people went on saying Tidus is well-written. I'm just pointing out that even tough he's well-written, that doesn't make him likeable. People who dislike Tidus aren't saying he's badly written.
>>322615580
When people say they don't like Tidus, they don't mean "I don't want Tidus as a best friend", they mean "I don't like him as a character". That's what people mean when talking about ANY character, how is this even relevant?
>>322612762
Well, he is an emo on advent children and Kingdom Hearts, thats where they base their opinions.
>>322601732
He was literally added to the game and made into the protagonist because Japan hates manly main characters aka Basch.
He has next to no bearing on the story and functions more like a bloody side character.
>>322602270
Hope was like the best support and nuke Ravager.
>>322615935
>When people say they don't like Tidus, they don't mean "I don't want Tidus as a best friend", they mean "I don't like him as a character".
>4 posts earlier
>No one ever said Tidus was unrealistic or badly written. He's unlikeable.
Yeah no. Tidus is a well-written character, which makes him a 'good character'. Whether he's a likable person is irrelevant.
>>322616109
>He has next to no bearing on the story and functions more like a bloody side character.
Just like Basch
>>322616243
The story was literally about Basch.
>>322615482
>>322615549
thanks
its been a while since ive played the game.
I do remember vaan had more weight in the story then people say
>>322601732
How can anyone like FF XII ?
I just found it so fucking lame and boring that I had to eventually stop .I just couldn't get used to the battle system where its turn based but you can still run around like a retard. I'd prefer if they went full action RPG or turn based. Also his brother had a way cooler name.
Why do people whine so much about him not wearing a shirt?
>>322616210
"I don't like him as a character" does not mean "He's a badly written character". It means I don't like this particular type of characters in fiction. That has nothing to do with being likeable AS A PERSON but being likeable AS A CHARACTER - which itself has nothing to do with being well-written or not.
If the main character of FFX was a pony, it could be the best-written and most friendly character to ever exist, people still wouldn't like him; not because he'd be badly written or unlikeable as a person but because it's a fucking pony. When people say they don't like Tidus, they're not saying he's badly-written or a person they wouldn't hang with, they're saying he's a badly-dressed teenager with a dumb face and does not show the qualities people like to have in heroes. If he was the main love interest of a shoujo manga, he'd be really appreciated; it would be the same character, with the same personality and the same design, he'd just be in a medium that caters to people that like this type of character.
Lightning. I LOVE her unitonically.
>>322616660
In the original game he has inverted abs that look fucking weird.
>>322616202
>Hope was like the best support and nuke Ravager.
>enfire enfire enfire enfire everytime
>>322612762
The people who shit on Cloud shit on Advent Children Cloud. No one smart has ever shit on game Cloud. It all comes from AC and Kingdom Hearts. With a bit of Dissidia thrown in.
Watch AC and they throw his growth out the window and turn him into a whiney emo faggot.
>>322616938
Did they texture the shadows directly onto the models? I've always disliked how the ingame gaphics look like everyone just got done with a mudbath.
People get on about Vaan and Penelo being irrelevant in the story, but that's how most characters are in FF from 7 and on, it's just that Vaan is the main character.
>>322605997
FFVIII was a masterpiece fuck you
>>322616891
So is LR worth playing? I despised FF13, but 13-2 was a shockingly fun romp, even if the ending wasHAHA NOTHING YOU DID MATTERED IN THE SLIGHTEST SO HAVE A BAD END. I started LR, but it just seems horrible so far. Should I stick with it?
I liked Vaan too. It was fun seeing Vaan going from killing rats on the sewers to him being one of the few holding a sword and trying to destroy the stone at Ridorana.
>>322617158
this
you feel it more when your mains are nothing instead
that only applies to penelo really. vaan just need a little more shit to do.
The best protagonist Soul Calibur ever had.
>>322617359
Explain how
>>322617158
He's not the main character per se, he's the window through which the player experiences the game. The focus is still on Basch and Ashe.
>>322614568
No one dislikes Rebecca. She's second best girl and no one will ever argue that.
>>322614493
I like tidus. He's one of my favorite FF characters.
The true main character of FFXII is Ashe's butt
>>322617727
>>322617727
All of the party members had delicious butts.
>There are people who played FF12 without using an all-female party
>>322605997
Took the words right out of my mouth. Forget the teaching job, she should have been kicked out of SeeD altogether.
>>322617624
Well its an opinion. Really liked his design and his moveset first of all. And also the fact that he wasnt a Gary Stu "save everyone" copy paste main character. and nor was he a 2 edgy anti hero main character. He was a balance between those 2 and his personality was kind of dynamic and bipolar. You can go ahead and call me a faggot but i actually related to him a bit in that story mode
>>322618068
>that one Serpent monster that only reveals itself around women
>have all dudes in my party
>remember this little detail while standing around the area its supposed to come out
>put Fran in the party
>immediately shows up
>>322616792
>He's this asspained
Fucking zozzle
>>322615009
this 100%. Unfortunately a lot of /v/ has this weird "waifu mentality" where they won't like a character unless the character is sucking them off half the game, even at the expense of characterization
>>322615281
is that a Lex reference, on my /v/?
>>322601732
Vaan is fine. He's a street rat and a good kid. He hates Basch and the Empire for killing his brother. When he finds out Basch is innocent he befriends him. When he befriends Larsa he realizes the Empire is not some evil nation of assholes, but just another country like his with a corrupt leader that Larsa and his faction want to end to establish peace. He lets go of his hate and fights for peace and not vengeance.
>>322617158
>People get on about Vaan and Penelo being irrelevant in the story, but that's how most characters are in FF from 7 and on,
This.
In FF9, Freya, Amarant and Quina are irrelevant.
In FF7, Red 13, Yuffie and after about a 3rd into the game Barret are irrelevant.
In FF10, Khimari and Lulu are irrelevant.
In FF6, most of them are irrelevant
>>322621149
Red XIII isn't irrelevant, he's the connection to Cosmo Canyon. Barret's not irrelevant at all, he's the instigator behind AVALANCHE and has that whole Corel thing. Plus he's like the third most important playable character after Cloud and Aerith. Yuffie is irrelevant but that's because she was added late in development and was a secret character
>>322621149
Lulu never becomes irrelevant in my playthroughs.
>>322621149
>In FF9, Freya, Amarant
That was a shame.
>In FF7, Red 13, Barret
That's wrong.
>In FF10, Khimari and Lulu are irrelevant.
I'd say that Lulu worked well enough as a somewhat moterhly figure for Yuna, but, yeah.
>>322621657
>he's the connection to Cosmo Canyon
The events at Cosmo Canyon can totally happen without Red being there. It's not the connection, it's just his backstory.
>Barret's not irrelevant at all, he's the instigator behind AVALANCHE and has that whole Corel thing.
AVALANCHE is irrelevant 5 hours into the game so he's right. Again, Corel is just his backstory, not something actually important to the plot. For exemple, if Barret had just been an NPC, or you remove him from the game and Wedge is AVALANCHE's leader (but still dies), the plot still works fine.
>Plus he's like the third most important playable character after Cloud and Aerith
That's Tifa. Actually Tifa is more important than Aeris.
>>322615063
Seriously?
He's so different in second it might just be a completely new character.
>>322621951
>The events at Cosmo Canyon can totally happen without Red being there. It's not the connection, it's just his backstory.
no they can't. Why would Bugenhagen help you? Why go find out about Seto without him there? Bugenhagen also helps in cracking open the Northern Crater and the Huge Materia.
>AVALANCHE is irrelevant 5 hours into the game so he's right. Again, Corel is just his backstory, not something actually important to the plot. For exemple, if Barret had just been an NPC, or you remove him from the game and Wedge is AVALANCHE's leader (but still dies), the plot still works fine.
it sets up the rivalry with Shinra throughout the game. "Back story" isn't a good enough hand-waive for hours of gameplay. They go through Corel in order to stop Sephiroth and Barret's connection to that place fundamentally changes the adventure.
>That's Tifa. Actually Tifa is more important than Aeris.
Phttt Tifa's less important than Cid. All she does is stay quiet half the game, give some exposition about Nibelheim, and you control her for like 5 minutes. Aerith is instrumental in defeating Sephiroth.
>>322622229
>implying anyone hate Yuri
Are you high?
>>322622390
Considering how everyone only talks about him in relation to 2, yes.
>>322621951
Connection to the plot is something a character needs in order to make them more interesting and relatable.
It has nothing to do with how much importance the character has to the plot. If it did then you wouldn't have a well-balanced cast of characters to pick from.
>Waah why is he silent?
>Why isn't he important
>Why isn't he Shulk?
Boo fucking hoo.
>>322622246
>Why would Bugenhagen help you?
You have a common enemy. Bugenhagen has no reason NOT to help you. Red XIII isn't necessary for Bugenhagen to help you, only for your party to know he can help you. This can easily be replaced with an NPC telling you he can help you.
>Why go find out about Seto without him there?
Why would you got here in the first place? This scene has no relevance at all except to give Red XIII a bit of backstory. You can write out this scene from FF7 and nothing changes.
>Barret's connection to that place fundamentally changes the adventure.
How so? I don't remember it being particularly important other than giving Barret some backstory but I might remember wrong.
>Phttt Tifa's less important than Cid.
If you remove Tifa from the game, the plot stops working, simple as that. Red XIII can be removed with just a bit of rewriting.
I do think that Tifa could've come up later in the plot tough, since she's not really relevant until later, around the point Barret starts becoming irrelevant.
>>322622856
Personally, if I can easily see the plot working when I take out the character, it diminishes my appreciation for this character.
>>322623395
Yeah boo hoo that XCX's story was gutted for some garbage online mode
>>322606454
He kept blabbering about how he's the main character in early cutscenes so I kept him at level 7 for the rest of the game.
>>322623437
>Personally, if I can easily see the plot working when I take out the character, it diminishes my appreciation for this character.
It doesn't really do that because if the story makes enough of an attempt to give that character screentime then they remain relevant.
Thats the whole reason why Barret has a backstory for example, or cid. Their role is pretty inconsequential otherwise.
A story would be pretty fucking boring if the main character didn't have other characters to interact with constantly, more importantly characters that the player can relate with because by character standards jrpg protagonists tend to be the most unrelatable characters ever to anything but tasteless teenagers or children.
You could think about it like comic book superheroes, they are pretty diverse and people will always have a favorite. You can think of the characters in a story the same way.
>>322624405
>story makes enough of an attempt to give that character screentime then they remain relevant.
If you have to make an "attempt" at it, you've failed in my eyes. The relevant characters don't have to be given relevancy. For exemple, Cait Sith isn't "given screentime" to be relevant; he's relevant because he's needed there for the plot to work.
>Thats the whole reason why Barret has a backstory for example, or cid. Their role is pretty inconsequential otherwise.
And that's exactly why I don't care as much for them as other characters.
>A story would be pretty fucking boring if the main character didn't have other characters to interact with constantly
Obviously, but the other characters can be there because they're relevant, not because we want many characters and have the writer force himself to find ways to make them relevant. To me, a good JRPG party has all characters have an important and unique role in the plot.
>You could think about it like comic book superheroes
Think of a theatre. The amount of character is limited by the medium since you need an actor for all of them. As such, the majority of them will be important to the plot. Since it's too costly to have "fluff" characters, the only ones you'll see are those necessary for the plot to work. And if a character is irrelevant after act 1, he isn't given a backstory in act 3 to keep him relevant, he just disappears.
I'm not saying that the characters should be removed, since after all having multiple characters is fun in a JRPG, but rather I think the writers should make an effort so that every character is an important part of the plot with a key role to play. Obviously I'm aware this isn't the easiest thing to do, and it's not like I'm blaming FF7 for it since this is something that happens in most RPGs (and TV shows and mangas etc.). But FF7 still has many characters, both playable and unplayable, who are important to the plot and stay relevant throughout the game, so it's not impossible.
>>322623437
>You have a common enemy. Bugenhagen has no reason NOT to help you. Red XIII isn't necessary for Bugenhagen to help you, only for your party to know he can help you. This can easily be replaced with an NPC telling you he can help you.
and yet you lose like 80% of the first scene at Cosmo Canyon with no Red XIII. You lose the exposition that Bugenhagen gives you in the first meeting there. Hell, Red XIII is the reason you're even allowed to visit Cosmo Canyon.
>Why would you got here in the first place? This scene has no relevance at all except to give Red XIII a bit of backstory. You can write out this scene from FF7 and nothing changes.
you seem to think that the only thing that is relevant to FFVII is stopping the Meteor from hitting the planet. You could write the story in a way to avoid Aerith from dying or to stop the Junon gun fire or the bloodbath in Shinra headquarters and still stop the Meteor, but it wouldn't be FFVII.
>How so? I don't remember it being particularly important other than giving Barret some backstory but I might remember wrong.
Refer to what I said above re: not everything revolves around the end-game. From Corel they realized Sephiroth was headed to Gongaga.
>If you remove Tifa from the game, the plot stops working, simple as that.
Why for this one thing and not the others? Using your logic above you could say you could use another NPC for the Nibelheim incident to explain it to Cloud later in the game. Or maybe he just remembers on his own.
>>322621891
>Khimari
>irrelevant
Did you play the game or has it just been too long?
>>322626246
>you seem to think that the only thing that is relevant to FFVII is stopping the Meteor from hitting the planet.
There's a main plot, and a good story has the side plots interlacing with it. It's actually something FF7 is decent at. The "Sephiroth" plot and the "Shinra" plot keeps meeting and they mix in a very good way. Obviously the whole Shinra thing could be severly reduced since the main plot is actually about pursuing Sephiroth, but Shinra is mixed so much with it that it can't be removed without rewriting the whole game. I don't know how Sakaguchi wrote it, maybe he wrote the Sephiroth plot first and Shinra second or he wrote them at the same time, but either way it's very well done. In the current canon, the Sephiroth plot does not work without Shinra and vice versa. Some of the characters in the other hand do not mix well at all. Red XIII's "plot" is completely seperate from anything else in the game. You rescue him (Tough really you're rescuing Aeris and just happen to rescue him), then he does nothing until Cosmo Canyon where he gets a backstory then does nothing for the rest of the game. Obviously the game is allowed to have other plots than "Stop Sephiroth" but it's much more interesting if those side plots are mixed with the main plot. Other characters like Cloud, Aeris, Cait Sith, don't have to be given "side plots" because the main story IS there plot. They're their own characters, with their own backstories, but those stories are mixed with the main plot so that it's an integral part of it. If FF7 was a hamburger, Sephiroth and Cloud are the bread, Shinra is the meat, Aeris is the cheese, the rest of the characters are the veggies, Vincent is the fries, Yuffie is the cola, Red XIII is a pack of cigarette.
>>322626868
Pfft, please.
>>322626868
What does Khimari do aside from getting into an argument at Mount Gagazet?
>>322604410
>>322608242
Having played Tales of Symphonia beforehand, I did enjoy Luke being a jerk and growing into his hero role compared to Lloyd being Moral True North of the entire universe.
That, and it was pretty cool that the first time Luke killed an actual human enemy, the dude freaks out. (and even regretted the first monsters he killed) That was what cinched him for me. None of this "Welp, time to leap into war and not mind the people I murder!"
Along with the Z Skit that shows Luke is ETERNALLY haunted by his bodycount.
