![Breitling-watch-Jerry-Seinfeld-2[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/V1YPzYI.jpg "Breitling-watch-Jerry-Seinfeld-2[1].jpg")
Let's say Valve proposed a system where people can sell the mods they create on steam would you support it?
No.
>>322342987
>paying for horse assholes
No. Voluntary donation button with only a very modest cut going for parties other than the author of the mod, yes.
Profiting off people finishing your buggy mess for you is the worst possible incentive.
>>322342987
Modders should work for free or get a real job.
>>322342987
Sure, but only if valve and game companies can't make a single dime off of it.
>>322342987
Sure, the system in place was great, but retards had to cry "muh free mods".
>>322344841
This.
IF you make an amazing mod or maybe just an halfassed one with a brilliant concept (long war).
You WILL get recognition from the devs and others.
Hell I heard that the modders that made long war were brought in for development on XCOM2
>>322345195
This post is bait.
>>322342987
Nope.
>>322342987
I'd need more information. How much are the Jews taking off the back of the hard working coders? How will the system protect the content creators?
If it was a system like Humble Bundle where you pick how much the creators get and how much is Valve's share, sure.
Also, if there was a curation system, so the quality of the mods would be way higher than the free mods.
>>322345213
Theyre also making their own studio and making their own game now.
>>322345213
IIRC, the devs are on record as saying that The Long War basically made their game look like a 20 hour tutorial. Pretty sure the mod devs are now a studio developing their own game which is essentially XCOM in Grand Strategy form.
>>322342987
I'm not against mod makers charging for their mod, provided the people who made the game don't see a cent of it. This results in the following:
1. The devs have less incentive to half-ass the game because "the modders will fix it".
2. We may see a few fucking phenomenal mods which are worth the few bucks you put in.
3. Modders who do it for free will get shitty at people who make low quality content and charge for it, so they'll make free versions and drive them out of business.
At least, that's the dream.
>>322342987
No. And the steam community already protested against it.
>>322345636
>Pretty sure the mod devs are now a studio developing their own game which is essentially XCOM in Grand Strategy form
My penis is ready.
And just think - if you had to pay for that mod nobody would've played it and this wouldn't be happening.
>>322342987
if a mod is amazing, make a standalone, make it your own game and i'll buy it, maybe.
I would pay for great maps of certain games though
>>322342987
No, paid mods would fuck up community development, since compatibility patches and mods derived from other mods and big overhauls would be discouraged for the sake of protecting they money source.
If I wasn't broke as fuck, I might even donate to a couple of great modders I've seen around, but never buy their mods.
Paying for mods? NO
What's next paying so you can beta test a game?
>>322345636
this desu
>>322343205
This desu senpai
>>322345250
Not really. This is a perfect example of entitled gamers, thinking that work you put in a mod should be free.
Menwhile degenerates like trainwiz get all butthurt and jelly and try toshot down the people who think want to have some compensation for their 4k textures or scripting .
>>322347472
no this is definietely bait
jesus fuicking christ jerry seinfeld is the least funniest person on the planet
those intros were terrible in seinfeld
If it's not handled like a clusterfuck unlike their last attempt, maybe.
>>322342987
Nope.
And you are retarded for even suggesting something like that.
>>322342987
Only if they're donations that are optional.
![m_bison[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/db4lUHb.jpg "m_bison[1].jpg")
>>322342987
>money in the mobile gaming will surpass video gaming this year
>video gaming is going to fix this with micro payments etc
How does it feel like, /v/?
Literally the tilt at windmills.
>>322347472
Dude, I have modded several games.
I do it when I like a game and I think it really needs something that I want in it.
I do not create the mods for others. I make them public for others to share when I feel that others might enjoy them as well.
If you paid me money for me sharing that stuff with you, you would incentivize corporations to just release unfinished products even more than they are already.
>>322347747
console and pc games already have microtransactions though, in fact it's being going on for years at this point.
also I don't think you know what the phrase tilting at windmills means. work on your english
>How does it feel like
>>322347472
>>322347883
Also, you should kill yourself.
If gamers are entitled, then what are the companies that try to rip you off at any given time?
Fuck you and your bullshit.
>>322347747
>video gaming is going to fix this with micro payments etc
Anno 2205 already has a companion app that's a shitty match 4 game with micro-transactions that sends resources to your main game.
>>322347883
>>322347964
stop taking the bait anon
The third and final freedom of Richard Stallman's four freedoms is the freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions of software to others, for free OR for a commercial fee. Firefox for example has a noncommercial clause in its license which makes it nonfree, despite meeting the rest of the requirements.
Why is /v/ so against freedom?
>>322348161
back to /g/ lincuck
>>322348161
>>322348161
>Why is /v/ so against freedom?
Cause freedom ain't free Comrade. If I work on something I deserve to get paid. If someone else works on something I worked on I deserve to get paid. If someone downloads something I worked on, then deletes it because he knows I'm a dick then I deserve to get paid. I can't buy more coffee to run the computational workshop I call a brain without cold hard cash.
>>322346593
Found their website: http://www.longwarstudios.com/games.htm
The game's called Terra Invicta. It's in pre-kickstarter development.
They already tried it with Skyrim not even that long ago. Everyone bitched until they shut it down and everyone was refunded. They were horribly overpriced too and I'm guessing that comes from Valve trying to get their cut of the shekels. If they offered a donate what you will type system prominently on the mod's page then I don't think sane people would have a problem with that. It would be nice if Valve, whose most popular games came from mod's of their base engine, could cut down the Jewry a little bit sometimes. Especially when it comes to what are normally single person content creators without the ability to really do anything except take what they can get.
>>322348161
The thing I don't understand about people against paid mods is if they're so adamant about that position, why not create a community around a game not controlled by a company who wants a cut on mods and why not utilize licenses intended to prevent commercial distribution, or at least to allow forking a now commercial mod from its last free version to prevent breakage?
The Free Software community has been dealing with these very issues for decades now, why does the modding community refuse to grow up and learn the same lessons?
Why spend so much time on Skyrim, when they could be modding and upgrading OpenMW?
>>322348463
None of this change the fact that modders and mod users and pretty much everyone involved don't want paid mods.
It's literally shit for everyone else than bethesda and valve.
So if you want to get money, stop being such a lazy fat ass and get to work on hl3 already.
>>322348403
>If I work on something I deserve to get paid.
>For this reason, I'm against paying for the work people put into mods.
Yeah, give this generation another false hope and another way of being completely fucking lazy with the misconception of actually doing something productive.
If they wanted to make money doing video game related stuff, they'd get a job at a studio or start their own and make their own game.
>>322348627
Suppose that Valve and Bethesda don't get a cut of the money. Would that be better or worse to you?
>>322342987
Still trying to defend valve?
>>322342987
No, because any update could break the mod.
>>322348627
>modders don't want paid mods
Lots of people who make mods are trying to make money off of it, just not in the 'get paid for this mod' sense, its something to put on your resume and to show off in your portfolio when looking for work. The problem that we have today with mods is that outside of a few big name titles that get a lot of attention its almost died out as today its so easy to get an engine and make your own indie game that you can then sell and make money off of.
So paid mods are Valve's attempt to counteract the indie game trend to some extent by encouraging devs who want to make some money to make mods instead. Their cut from the sales was only their standard cut that they use to pay the CC processing fees and cover overhead. That's why Valve was willing to pull it down so fast once it became a shit storm, it was chump change for them.
If the mod community grows up a bit and realizes this then there are steps they can take to embrace this, or to fight it but whining about it while continuing to focus on games from a company that wants the lions share of money from derivative works won't change anything.
I thought that people voting for mods that can become official dlc for consoles could work. companies get to be greedy fat jews, console people get something they never had before and pc players have the staus quo
Or you know people who didn't make the mod putting it up for sale was also a bit of a problem
Also a lot of mods use resources from other mods.
I would get pissed if someone made money of my free mods.
>>322348813
That's unrealistic. Mods are by definition a derivative work of a copyrighted media, the company who owns the rights is going to almost certainly require some kind of compensation for that. Plus Valve is doing the Credit Card processing which isn't free, which is why some bars are cash only and why some gas stations have a 'cash only' price for gas.
>>322349047
You forgot about Bethesda's cut. It creates a conflict of interest where developers can put out half assed games while directly profiting from modders fixing their shoddy work.
You take a product that people currently get for free and decide to charge them for it while offering literaly nothing other that the hope that someday someone will decide to maybe create a mod at a price you are willing to pay. What does the customer get for paid mods? Why is everyone talking about how much the split on the money is when steam's policy for mod conflicts was lietarply 'post on the forum and hope the author does something.'
The modding community is built around building off of other people's work to create great things (be it content or other people's research in to how to make certain things work). Awesome mods have come from collaborations between people and using small things other people have done to make their mod's experience even better. With paid mods there's fuck-all collaboration within the community because people will be paranoid that their works may be used to benefit someone's wallet, or that if they want to make a paid mod they can't use anything people have done for free and don't want to be monetized. It's not a sustainable system that will work,not for mods of commercial games. Is it all really worth it for a mere 25% of revenue (before taxes)?
Paid mods suck because the people paying for them get nothing in return. And forcing modders to choose between embracing paid modding and all of its ills or stop working on mods of commercial games is completely unreasonable
>>322342987
Of course not. I'll never pay for a mod considering it might just stop working if devs update the game and the mod creators won't.
>>322349576
Distribute your mods under a license that allows them to be re-used by free mods, but prevents their commercial exploitation.
>>322349770
There's no way to feasibly enforce this. Mod makers don't have their own legal teams.
>>322342987
Sure.
Can't use code from other mods.
Can't have reliance on other mods to function.
No questions asked refunds in perpetuity if update breaks mod.
Would I buy a mod?
I'd toss 2-3 bucks at something the size and scope of XCom: LW, but with an easier install process and the ability to play LW games and EW games without having to uninstall the mod. Would I pay a buck for horse anuses in Skyrim? Nope.
>>322342987
Only if the modder is the only one receiving a cut and it is only available for mods that don't use any mods made by others to run
>>322349625
>the company who owns the rights is going to almost certainly require some kind of compensation for that.
Then don't charge for mods. It's as simple as that. Paid mods primarily benifit the company that owns the rights to the original game, the actual content creators are secondary and literally 0 benifit for the actual users, especially since the mods aren't even subject to any sort of QA nor do they come with any sort of warranty. You can't refund mods either.
>>322349625
Valve should probably get a cut for hosting the mod on their servers and distributing it through their tubes. Bethesda probably won't give up its legal right to limit the sale of mods to those that give them a cut, but what about other developers? If they had a policy of allowing mods to be sold without them involved at all, would this be an improvement over the developers having incentive to slack off?
>>322349625
>Plus Valve is doing the Credit Card processing which isn't free
The cost for this is almost trivial, especially for one of the largest digital distribution companies like valve. I can't believe you're actually using this to justify a 30% cut for MOD CONTENT of all things.
I have nothing against mod creators wanting incentives for their work. The problem is lack of official support and quality control. If I'm paying money for something, I want to be sure it at least works as intended. The problem with paid mods for Skyrim was that Valve nor Bethesda could guarantee that. Even if it works perfectly and doesn't conflict with other mods (compatibility is another huge issue) , it might break on the next patch or DLC. While a professional developer would hopefully fix a game-breaking bug, a modder will be much slower since it's likely not their only job, if they even fix it. The idea of paying money for something which may only work until the next patch isn't appealing. The only way to make paid mods work would be to have full developer support for the paid mods, with guarantees that they will be patched if a bug or compatibility issue is found.
>>322349884
>No questions asked refunds in perpetuity if update breaks mod.
The creator would need to keep 99% of the money he made inside of a bank account solely in case something out of his control caused everyone to demand refunds.
Like, what is supposed to happen if you "demand" a refund and the person goes "Sorry Senpai, decided to pay rent this month"
>>322343205
which no one would fucking use
>>322349962
Food vendors at amusement parks have to give a cut of their profits to the owner of the amusement park.
The park owner puts in 0 work, but gets free money.
This is an acceptable business practice.
>>322345213
long war is for tryhard autists
"lol i love losing, am i hardcore yet?"
get a life
>>322350229
It's what every other seller on the planet has to deal with.
Don't want to offer refunds on your mods? Then don't charge for them.
>in case something out of his control caused everyone to demand refunds.
The fact that something out of the dev's control could somehow cause people to demand refunds on something he created should give you a hint on why paid mods aren't a good idea
>>322350229
Creator is in business with Valve & gamedev. That's their issue to work out, not mine.
If you are selling me a product for money and it breaks due to a fault on your end, you owe me a refund or a prompt replacement.
>>322349642
>You forgot about Bethesda's cut. It creates a conflict of interest where developers can put out half assed games while directly profiting from modders fixing their shoddy work.
The problem there is that ultimately a shitty game isn't going to attract interest from players to build a modding community. I didn't forget about their cut, as I said elsewhere it is unreasonable to expect a company to allow derivative works of their copywritten product without compensation.
The Free Software community has survived paid versions of their software for years with no real ill effects because ultimately paid versions don't matter much to the average user just as paid mods won't matter much to the average PC gamer, if the licenses are properly handled it will be impossible for someone to take a mod that other mods depend on and lock it behind a paywall.
>Paid mods suck because the people paying for them get nothing in return.
You get the same thing you get when you pay for any software, continued support for that software and an increased likelihood of additional similar software in the future.
>Is it all really worth it for a mere 25% of revenue?
That's for the dev to decide and its far more than a developer working on a game that is a derivative work can hope to make.
>forcing modders to choose between embracing paid modding and all of its ills or stop working on mods of commercial games is completely unreasonable
There's nothing that forces modders to go paid if paid mods exist. Nor does if force you or anyone else to pay for their mod you can simply use an alternative. The virtue of working on mods for commercial games is questionable though, if you don't like the business practices of the company, and think that they make half-assed products that are only good because of the modding community why not focus on a non-commercial game instead that would allow the community to own its own future?
>>322350424
>food analogy
I should have known better than to engage.
>>322350527
>It's what every other seller on the planet has to deal with.
No, they offer them out of the goodness of their heart, and there are very explicit terms under which you can get a refund (Hell, 99% of the time you can't get a refund on a video game if you even opened the package).
Many places do not offer refunds. You can't demand a college refund because you didn't get a job. You can't demand a refund on your Super Nintendo because they don't make them anymore and some chip crapped out. You can't demand a refund on your lightbulbs after they burned out. You can't demand a refund on your laserdisk player because no one made laserdisks to play it with.
>>322350583
>The problem there is that ultimately a shitty game isn't going to attract interest from players to build a modding community
Fallout 4 shows otherwise. Just skimming your post I can see you're falsely equating mods to full on paid software with actual support, so I'm not going to even bother because you can't be reasoned with.
>>322350115
The processing fees and overhead are higher than you think. There's a reason why 30% is practically the standard for online stores. It also provides a better return that practically any other type of store which is why developers have flocked to Steam and digital distribution.
>>322350424
>The park owner puts in 0 work
They're keeping the park running and making sure there are customers in the first place.
>>322350938
So because Steam keeps the platform running and makes sure there are customers in the first place they deserve nothing?
>>322350990
I'm just pointing out your analogy doesn't work, if you want an argument find someone else.
>>322351140
My analogy works perfectly, you're just an autist who doesn't know the point of an analogy. I'll lay it out because I forgot autistic people can't understand a hypothetical.
The park owner is doing the single most important job in the exact same way Steam is doing the single most important job. The park owner deserves a cut in the exact same way Steam deserves a cut.
By justifying the park owner, you justify Steam.
>>322350583
>There's nothing that forces modders to go paid if paid mods exist.
Modding is already a niche community - we're a tiny part of the greater PC gaming whole, which is itself an unfortunately small part of gaming as a whole.
How do people get into modding, become modders? They aren't hired, there isn't a formal process. They get into it by USING MODS. By setting up paywalls on popular mods we immediately throw up a huge barrier to people even getting into modding in the first place. Where before it was already intimidating enough from a technical aspect, now real money gets put on the line for a product which may or may not work.
After using mods, they tinker with mods. They reverse engineer what others have done, modify it, add onto it. With the paywall, people will close off their mods to protect their work. Source scripts will evaporate. It will become that much harder to learn how to mod.
The pool of people using mods will shrink, and thus over time, so will the pool of modders. So by signing onto this, you're openly sacrificing the future of the hobby all to get a payday, a payday that will itself vanish as the community implodes upon itself. It is the pinnacle of selfishness and shortsightedness.
The virtue of working on mods for commercial games isn't questionable at all, it's only when you force a false dichotomy between paid mods or quitting mods for commercial games entirely.
>>322350746
>Many places do not offer refunds. You can't demand a college refund because you didn't get a job.
Really? This is your argument to justify paid mods being unrefundable? I seriously hope you're just pretending
>>322350751
Lots of people seem to think its a good game even without mods.
I'm perfectly reasonable, its just that you're wrong. Other communities have dealt with similar problems and have come out of them stronger because legal frameworks exist to protect free distribution and reuse of code. There's no reason to think that paid mods will destroy anything.
> falsely equating mods to full on paid software with actual support
No you're wrong again there. If you get a mod for free and a game update breaks it then you're out of luck unless the mod is licensed to allow someone else to fork it. With a paid mod there is more incentive for the original author to fix and maintain their mod because a broken mod is unlikely to get future sales.
>>322350616
>Seeing a common theme somehow invalidates it.
1-Valve gets no more than 10% to cover the costs and the game developer/publisher gets nothing, majority of the pay goes to the modder.
2-Each mod should make it clear what mods they are incompatible with and what mods they rely on.
3-A moderation team tests mods on each game update and flags mods that have problems or stop working entirely.
4-Refund option, but expanded. If a patch breaks a mod and the modder doesn't update, I should be able to refund. I don't care if the modder takes the money and runs. It's Valve's problem to not let scammers use their platform for trade transactions.
>>322351363
>Really? This is your argument to justify paid mods being unrefundable? I seriously hope you're just pretending
No, I'm using it to refute your counter argument that every single other business is required to offer refunds.
My justification for being unrefundable is that MOST businesses don't offer refunds, certainly not small one-person operations.
>>322351497
>my shitty food analogy is perfectly valid trust me!
HA
>>322351342
>My analogy works perfectly
It doesn't because you said the owner does nothing, which is patently false.
>>322342987
I would aslong as the game devs and steam gets atmost a very minor part of the profits.
>>322351569
Your comparing a one-person operation of refunding mods to refunding university tuition and burned out lightbulbs.
The only thing you're refuting is you're own credibility here
>Paying
>For mods
>Ever
You guys are so silly
>>322351342
>Steam
>doing the most important job
No, the content creator the most important job. You're just a retardard who can't make a functional analogy.
>>322351525
>1-Valve gets no more than 10% to cover the costs and the game developer/publisher gets nothing, majority of the pay goes to the modder.
The costs are more than 10%. They need to pay tech support, credit card transaction fees, network maintenance, advertising staff, etc etc. The modder gets all the benefit of having a large distribution platform, with 0 cost at all to publish.
Do you mean Valve should get 10% on top of all the costs? Or do you mean Valve should get exactly equal to the costs? Because if they don't get anything, why should they host someone else's product in the first place?
>>322350412
people throw away cash to artist patreons i don't see why a modder doesn't deserve the same treatment. what they do is for free and isn't guaranteed to generate money but there are definitely people who'd give cash to these modders for providing content that in situations bests what the original developer offers.
valve trying to squeeze money out of it is the real problem
>>322351609
http://www.donnawilliams.net/autisticsandmetaphor.0.html
http://www.healthcentral.com/autism/c/1443/162610/autism-sarcasm/
>Brenda tried to explain sarcasm to her son, Jordan. “It is when someone says the opposite of what they mean.” She followed up with an example, “Suppose it is raining very hard outside, sometimes people will say, ‘What a beautiful day,’ sarcastically, what they really mean it, it is not a beautiful day.”
>“That just doesn’t make sense,”
>>322351392
>With a paid mod there is more incentive for the original author to fix and maintain their mod
You must be dreaming if you think it will be better handled once it is paying. Remember when beta testing was free ? OK, it was buggy, you had game resets, and you didnt really own anything, it could stop anytime, but it was free and you were free to participate or not.
Then came Early Access : paying to access a game in Beta form.
It didnt look too bad at first, did it ? "well, it's just like buying the game once the beta ended" some said, "yeah, people who dont want to buy the game in the end, they don't need to participate in the beta testing" others said, and it was already a bit shady.
But where are we today with the early access system ? Most games never make it out of "beta", or even "alpha", yet people have paid full price to play it, with half or less the features, and bugs everywhere, then games are abandonned and never finished.
If you truly believe it will go better this time, with the paid mods, you should reconsider. In this deal, the only party who has to do anything is you, the consumer, to pay the money you're asked for.
The mod dev has no obligation to provide something that works, or to correct it when it will break with the next game patch. He has no obligation to fulfill the promises made on the mod page (there are already early access paying mods on steam, right now, take a lookt for yourself). The game devs have no obligation of anything at all, they just take the share of money they decided unilaterally. and last but no least, Valve has no obligation whatsoever also, no support, no follow up, no refund if you discover after 20 hours of gameplay, a month or 2 after your purchase, that the mod actually broke your game, corrupted your saves or whatever. Whatever happens, only YOUR responsibility is engaged : provide the money.
You literally pay for nothing, the other parties don't have any obligation in that deal.
>>322351779
Not him but
>buy game
>play 60 hours of it
>enjoy it but burned out
>find popular paid mod
>give it a try
>complete overhaul of the game
>sink 90+ hours into game + mod
>months later original game updates
>part of the mod no longer works
>even though I got 90+ hours of enjoyment from it, I should get a refund, no questions asked
>>322351363
The software community as a whole had this debate decades ago before you were born. That's why licenses were developed to prevent putting up paywalls on Free Software that could not be bypassed.
Free Software is similarly a niche movement that has no formal process on how to join it, but that has survived paid software for a long time and has protected the right to tinker with and experiment to push the movement along.
If people want to create free mods for commercial games there's nothing stopping them even if paid mods for those games exist. Paid mods will exist outside of the traditional modding community, but that won't destroy the community.
I just think that if the mod community has such an aversion to the companies that are backing paid mods it would be healthier to focus on a new project where they control their own fate. Much in the same way that the Free Software community doesn't stop things from working on Windows but maintains its own stack.
Projects like OpenMW or Xoreos that re-implement old games would greatly benefit from more attention. As would fully Free games like Xonotic or Warsow.
>>322352002
This post is some next level autism right here
>>322352002
Ok, explain to me how someone owning the land, keeping the land maintained, and offering people a reason to be moving past the food vendor in the first place is doing "nothing". Without resorting to childish name calling.
>>322351779
Your complete inability to follow a logical debate chain is probably why you will never own a business.
>>322351863
Mod creators are a dime a dozen. There's a reason music, movie, and book publishers get all of the money and the creator gets pennies. It's easy as fuck to find a creator.
>>322352169
>Your complete inability to follow a logical debate chain
>follows this with an ad hominem
Top kek sempai.
Modding is the dumbest shit ever. Can't you spergs just enjoy games they way they are? Are a couple of cgi titties really worth all the hassle?
>>322342987
Oh, Sure. I'd be happy to sell my mods. Charge about 100 dollars for a single item then combine it into a pack for 400 dollars.
>>322342987
It would be like the mobile market
Shit nobody wants that costs money
>>322352169
>There's a reason music, movie, and book publishers get all of the money
And you're actually defending this? Why should we take you seriously again?
>>322352242
Ah, another autist. See, I am signaling you are not worth the time to debate because you cannot understand an already-delivered logical criticism of your counter-argument.
>>322352153
>People say Valve deserve no money for doing no work
>But amusement park owners to the exact same thing Valve is doing
>BUT AMUSEMENT PARK OWNERS DO WORK! WHY ARE YOU SAYING THEY DO NO WORK! BRB I NEED TO GO LINE UP MY TOYS IN ORDER OF SIZE.
I don't understand why modders should get more money. Did the modders spend two hundred millions dollars making the game? No? So why should they expect more?
Fuck everyone responsible for the paid mod fiasco.
>>322351871
>The costs are more than 10%
It's not even close. You're talking about baseline operations for a large digitial distribution company. I can understand when we're talking about full on games, but this is akin to microtransactions and hats here.
Also I find it hilarious that you guys argue against because selling mods is a "one man operation", yet when it comes to Valve getting a cut they suddenly need nearly a third of the revenue because taking money for mods is expensive.
>>322352054
I'm not saying I would pay for mods, just as I don't tend to pre-order games and with a few notable exceptions I have not purchased early access titles. If you don't like the way the industry is going then the only way you can influence it is to take action by not giving the companies money or using their products.
Whether or not paid mods will affect you is entirely your own decision.
>>322352492
>But amusement park owners to the exact same thing Valve is doing
But they don't.
>>322352492
>you cannot understand an already-delivered logical criticism of your counter-argument.
>you're an autist
>logical criticism of your counter-argument.
top kek m8.
>>322352578
On a $10 product, typical credit card fees are $3.
That's 30% alone.
>>322351916
Patron users have the option to make content exclusive to donators. They can even build a tier system, where certain content it exclusive to higher contributing donators.
So if you really want to compare to patreon, then you should acknowledge the rights given to the artist to make exclusive content, if they so choose.
>>322352256
>F-fucking stupid mods! Who needs them anyway?
>>322342987
They already have.
We said no.
>>322352647
>If you don't like the way the industry is going then the only way you can influence it is to take action by not giving the companies money or using their products.
Why am I not allowed to voice my dissent?
>>322352686
Citation needed
You're basically saying Valve makes 0 profit from selling games.
>>322352720
>I Need my MLP skin with realistic horse asshole and naked video game girls to enjoy games!
>>322352083
Yes you should get refund if the developer suddenly updates your game so it no longer works.
I can't believe you faggots are defending obsolesence here. Well, almost, this is /v/ after all.
>>322352104
>The Free Software community already had this debate, so any argument against paid modding is null and void
>The entire modding commuinity should just upright give up on modding games if they have a problem with paid modding
That's all I'm getting from your posts. You seem less interested in actual mods and moreso on getting modders to quit working on vidya.
>>322352835
>I hate having options! Publishers please tell me what I want and limit me to just that, including the DLC you want to sell me!
>>322352829
Yes, Valve makes very little from selling games from other companies. The fact that Steam is profitable for them comes from the incredible volume of business that they do. That volume then comes in part from the investments Valve has put into enabling all users of open platforms to participate.
>>322351392
>Lots of people seem to think its a good game even without mods.
You're absolutely kidding yourself if you think Fallout would have been anywhere near as successful without the prosepct of mods.
>>322351392
>There's no reason to think that paid mods will destroy anything.
How about
>People stealing mods from public sites and charging for them.
>People modifying public mods and charging for them
>People stealing assets from other mods for their own mods
>People selling mods that official patches then break
>People selling mods that flat out do not work
>People lying about what their mod actually fucking does
or any other fucking variety of things.
Anyone trying to reduce this to B-BUT VALVE AND BETHESDA DESERVE TO GET PAID should be spat upon, they are complete shills without a single functioning neuron.
>>322351591
but it is
I know /v/ takes food analogies as a meme but he was correct
>>322353203
>everything has to be my way because I'm part of the gimme gimme generation.
Kids are ruining this planet.
>>322353243
>Yes, Valve makes very little from selling games from other companies.
Sure they do.
Still waiting on those citiations.
>>322352983
If a developer has a paid mod that adds so much to the game there will be an incentive for them to maintain the mod. If a paid mod is good enough we might even see it spun off into its own game. What is Counter Strike other than an extremely successful paid mod?
The threat of updates that break things exists for all software, this is why for instance with the EOL date for desktop Windows looming in the not too distant future many companies are investing in bringing their software to other platforms.
>>322350583
>paid versions don't matter much to the average user just as paid mods won't matter much to the average PC gamer
I believe the above is a bit of a fallacy. There are many reasons why people are upset with this change.
It is changing a system that has been working fine. Modders aren't an oppressed class working without benefit. Modders choose to work on mods for many reasons: fun, practice, boredom, the joy of creating something. And gamers appreciate their contributions. While, some gamers may feel entitled most understand that if a modder is unable to continue the mod may be abandoned. Donations may or may not help but they are an option. This system has for years made PC gaming what it is. Modding in my opinion is the primary benefit of PC gaming over console. Changing a functional system is dangerous and could have unintended consequences.
Now that people are paying for mods they will feel entitled for these mods to continue working. If a free mod breaks and isn't supported that is fine because there is no obligation for it to continue working. If someone pays though they will expect the mod to be updated and continue working as the base game is updated. Furthermore, abandoned but popular mods are often revived by other people; if these mods are paid then the original creator may not want people to profit off of updated versions of their mod.
Related to the above paid mods may reduce cooperative modding. Many mods will borrow elements from other mods; usually with permission. Having paid mods will complicate things. Someone who makes a paid mod will be unlikely to share his/her work with others. What if someone freely share's his/her mod and someone incorporates it into a paid mod? Does the first mod's owner deserve compensation, does the second modder deserve the full revenue. This makes modding more politically complicated and may reduce cooperation.
>>322348161
>Prostitution, adultery, necrophilia, bestiality, possession of child pornography, and even incest and pedophilia … should be legal as long as no one is coerced. They are illegal only because of prejudice and narrow mindedness.
Some rules might be called for when these acts directly affect other people's interests. For incest, contraception could be mandatory to avoid risk of inbreeding. For prostitution, a license should be required to ensure prostitutes get regular medical check-ups, and they should have training and support in insisting on use of condoms. This will be an advance in public health, compared with the situation today.
For necrophilia, it might be necessary to ask the next of kin for permission if the decedent's will did not authorize it. Necrophilia would be my second choice for what should be done with my corpse, the first being scientific or medical use. Once my dead body is no longer of any use to me, it may as well be of some use to someone. Besides, I often enjoy rhinophytonecrophilia (nasal sex with dead plants).
- Richard Matthew Stallman
>>322352983
You got 90+ hours of enjoyment from your purchase. If that mod was charged at $5 you received 18+ hour/$ from your purchase. Now because it broke, none of that 90+ hours counts, and you need all $5 back for reparations.
>b-but I can't play it anymore
So? You already did. You don't get to refund a game months after purchase because an update causes your computer to crash when trying to start it, so why do you get to refund a mod when something breaks months after purchase?
>>322353459
Way to ignore the majority of my post. Yes Valve makes money off of third party games, but they don't make much off of each individual sale of a third party game. Gabe is not pocketing 30% of every sale on Steam. They make money from the volume of transactions that happen on Steam because of the massive user base. Other companies see value in being on Steam because of that user base in the same way that vendors selling cotton candy see value paying a premium to be located at the amusement park.
>>322353519
You are so demonstrably wrong it isn't even funny.
http://imgur.com/gallery/qFlFa
>What is Counter Strike other than an extremely successful paid mod?
Original CS 1.6 is a FREE mod you dummy, you can still download it for free right now.
Holy shit at least do some research before you pretend to know what you're talking about.
>Battlefield 1942 comes out, lots of fun
>Eventually the Desert Combat mod comes out, complete overhaul from WWII to modern era
>DICE takes notice and hires the mod team
>Battlefield 2 comes out
>DICE tell the team thanks for the work, you're fired
>Mod team for their own studio
>Release game Frontlines: Fuel of War
>No-one cares
>>322353736
The majority of your posts are unsubstatiated conjecture or objectively wrong.
Still waiting on those citiations.
>comparing Steam to candy at an amusment park
You know what? Never mind.
>>322353203
>yea da vinci did pretty good with this mona lisa, but I don't like that she has black hair, I'm just gonna change it to suit my personal preference
>>322353734
>you got X amount of enjoyment from the game/mod you purchased
>so it's perfectly acceptable for the devs to update your game/mod and render it unplayable with no recourse whatsoever
Get fucked.
>>322343205
This or nothing.
>>322353450
>Kids are ruining this planet.
They absolutely are, because they defend shitty practices and other garbage from devs and publishers.
Mods have been around for over 20 years, before these morons were born.
>>322353348
You forgot to mention that nearly every single EULA for modding in games expressly forbids selling your work for monetary gain.
Including Bethesda games.
>>322342987
No, because several mods are built on or require other mods, and monetizing them severely complicates this practice. Not to mention how many mods either use or are inspired from third party assets. The entire thing is a logistical nightmare, it puts way too much cost on the people downloading mods, and at some point the distribution of profits will make it not even worth creating new mods. Basically it ruins everything while benefiting a limited few.
>>322353734
>You don't get to refund a game months after purchase because an update causes your computer to crash when trying to start it, so why do you get to refund a mod when something breaks months after purchase?
>>322353557
Welcome to the real world. As I keep saying, we had this debate a long time ago and the result is paid software and free software both of which coexist just fine thanks to licenses that clarify all of the issues you keep bringing up as if they're something new.
Paid software is abandoned and the owner doesn't license it to allow redistribution or derivatives? Then you're SOL. Exact same problem users of Windows XP faced recently, and by fans of many games whose developers went out of business.
Paid software doesn't force Free Software out of existence though, and the quality of Free Software requires paid software to be that much better in order to stay relevant. Authors of paid software can't force the community to charge for community code just as the community can't force the paid modders to participate in the community for no compensation.
>>322354131
You forgot to mention that EULAs are horribly obtuse and archaic and only a fucking imbecile would seriously cite it as a justification for making mods paid.
>i get to decide how/if content creators can monetise their own creations
>but don't dare call me entitled or i'll throw a fit
The neo-consumer, everyone.
hilariously, Doom had paid mods with Final Doom. And no one minded because they were professionally QA tested and licensed by id. No one minds modders trying to get ahead, but when you open the floodgates to everyone being able to sell their garbage, it causes a disaster. In this day and age, the Final Doom model would be better reflected by Bethesda commissioning some high quality mods, spending the money to QA test them and then distributing them as DLC. That would take effort and risk though and Bethesda wasn't interested in somethign that was actually beneficial to customers and modders, they just wanted some quick cash.
>>322353975
>Yeah because the Mona Lisa is something you can own and interact with directly. This analogy is absolutely perfect, it'll sure show that guy!
DLC and microtransactions becomes a thing
>'oh wow you people are so entitled thinking it should be free, there is content thats worth paying for you know!'
>this leads to today where games are butchered and made from the ground up to gouge extra cash using DLC and microtransactions
paid mods become a thing
>'oh wow you people are so entitled thinking it should be free, there are mods out there worth paying for you know!'
>they expect this to be a good thing
You know what the definition of insanity is faggots?
>>322354303
You should really read
>>322352565
>>322353980
I don't use Steam, isn't it possible to rollback updates?
>>322354497
>You know what the definition of insanity is
Why don't you tell us again?
>>322354303
Where does the entitlement come from, for making your game last longer than it should. Why should they expect money? If I buy a checkers set and carve the pieces into chess set pieces suddenly I'm the bad guy for modifying the game I purchased with my money, because the checkers company isn't getting a kick back for my innovative idea. Come on. None of this applies to real property and it shouldn't apply to digital property either. It's another cash grab and should be identified as such.
>>322354517
>Modders didn't become modders for fucking money
So what? It's still work and if they feel the need to sell it just let them
>>322354517
Valve's (first) attempt was poor but that's a matter of implementation. There is literally no way to the basic concept of paid mods (as it's no different from paid anything) without sounding like a freetard baby.
>>322354058
The difference between twenty years ago and today is that back then engines were extremely expensive as was distribution of games. If you wanted to break into the industry making mods was a good way to do so. Today by contrast engines and distribution are cheap and easily available, this has led to many people interested in getting paid leaving the modding community to create indie games.
Modding communities built around strong Free Software principles will never be killed off, but there is clearly a niche available for high quality paid modifications to games. If you don't like them, don't buy them or play them.
>>322354748
no way to argue against*
>>322353734
Are you just pretending to be a fucking retard?
>>322354748
>freetard
That term is reserved for the free-as-in-freedom software community, which is behind paid mods and has been for over 30 years
>>322353980
>implying modders won't fix it
>>322355091
The key thing to explain is that there is no problem with selling free software because the only way to do so successfully is by adding value in some way, and that the sale of that software does nothing to stop anyone else from getting that same software for free under the same terms.
In a modding community built on Free Software principles and using licenses designed for the kind of community projects that most people here against paid mods seem to want there would be no issue if the author of a mod decides to make it paid because that mod would still be free to anyone who wants it. If people didn't want to support the author they could get it from alternate sources.
>>322347472
That same attitude is what bratty children have who only clean up the house because their parents pay them to do it.
>>322355478
But the modders aren't your kids, dear. They are equal peers who own the right to their creations just as much as other people who create and sell stuff.
>There are people that completely support the idea of paid mods without irony or trolling.
>>322355667
>There are people that completely support the idea of paid games without irony or trolling.
>>322348387
is that really RMS?
>>322355478
>living in a family that forced me to do yard work and clean up after their bullshit
>had to pick up after a fucking football party, cans and bottles everywhere, had to scrub puke out of the carpet
>"I put a roof over your head so you gotta"
The kind of people that didn't pay their kids allowances for chores are lazy fucks that justify their laziness by feigned importance of self because they have no power elsewhere. Enjoy not having taught your kids the value of work, this is why they get walked all over in their jobs and never get anywhere "Your best is what is expected, doesnt matter the bullshit piled on your plate, all that extra work doesn't matter!"
Eat a dick nigga
>>322355667
There's a difference between acknowledging that companies and modders have the right to agree to terms that allow them to sell mods, and supporting paid mods.
Like it or not you can't force everyone to live in a Free Software movement, but there are benefits to Free Software that will always attract people without any need to throw tantrums and prevent to stop people who want to be paid from getting compensation.
>>322352835
>The only games that get mods are Bethesda games and even those only get waifu mods
God damn you're so underage it hurts
>>322356423
But you did the work, which doesn't make you a brat.
>>322355658
99% of the mods I use I wouldn't pay for in the first place, like naked skins in Oblivion. But I use them because they are free and fun.
And I dont really give a fuck about those skins enough to pay real money for them. And chances are, the developer of that mod wasn't a little brat who needed some sort of gratification in the form of money for every little thing he worked on.
So, ceterus paribus, if all modders were brats who needed money for all of the naked skins and UI changes that they made, and people like me dont care enough to purchase them, they wouldnt have enough money to afford a living. So they would stop making the mods and I would stop playing with them. Suddenly there is no mod scene. Are either of us really better off this way?
If I'm gonna pay for a mod, it should be the way Final Doom did where the actual fucking developers themselves commissioned the modders.I won't lie though, if Someguy2000 were actually commissioned by Bethesda for Fallout 4 mods/DLC I wouldn't even hesitate to buy them.
