>best console rivalry
>dozens of unique exclusives each
>very different controllers
>different specs for each console
>one used discs
>the other used cartridges
>both producing masterpieces that are still remembered and loved to this day
Convince me that the N64 and the PS1 weren't the greatest consoles of all time.
It sure was more exciting than what we have now.
>dozens of unique exclusives each
There were plenty of reasons to own both consoles. Their catalogue was very different.
Best champion + Best contender = Best console war
>>322225149
>Convince me that the N64 and the PS1 weren't the greatest consoles of all time.
I can't since your things like these are subjective
Better than Mega Drive vs SNES? Lel
N64 was probably one of the shittiest consoles of all times, and was overrated to hell. The games aged like milk and the controller was an abomination
What wortwhile exclusives did it even have? Zelda? Banjo? Star Fox (a two hour game)? More Mario shit?
>>322226059
dk64? conkers? golden eye?
>>322225957
This.
But then I remember most kids here grew up with 5th gen or 6th gen and barely played any 4th gen outside of emulation, so it's understandable.
>>322226059
You obviously don't know shit about the 64.
I'm >>322226141 so I'm not even gonna say the N64 (or the PS1 for that matter) are the greatest consoles of all time, and also "overrated" can be anything, but you don't know shit, man.
Go back to CoD
>>322226384
I owned one mate. Had probably less than 10 worthwhile games, and less than 5 worthwhile games if you don't like Mario or kiddy shit.
>>322225149
Yeah it had the best rivalry,but the ps2 still remains as the best console of all time,the system literally had every genre and a shitload of variety of games still unparalleled by todays consoles.
>>322226615
Owning one doesn't mean you played the good games in it.
>kiddy shit
go back to CoD, you mature gamer.
It was a much more interesting competition between the two
but the SNES, Gamecube, and PS2 are better consoles than the PS1 & N64
>>322226615
>perfect dark
>overrated
FPS took a huge step back when Halo got popular. Perfect Dark is amazing, and it still is amazing.
>>322226384
>Go back to CoD!! >:(((
Did I just wander into the youtube comment section, or perhaps reddit? An underage who likely never owned an N64 and only played through emulation is unironically telling me to "go back to CoD" for not liking his nostalgia goggles console. Can't make this shit up lmao
N64 was shit. Very few worthwhile games, controller was dogshit, and cartridges over discs was classic Nintendo thinking the industry would bend to their will then Sony left them in the dust. N64/PS1 marked the fall of Nintendo from relevance, and the rise of Sony.
GCN was alright though. F-Zero GX, Metroid Prime, Eternal Darkness, Viewtiful Joe, RE4, Starfox Adventures, Wind Waker, Melee, Animal Crossing (probably one of my favorite games that gen, very unique), Pikmin, TTYD, etc.
>>322226615
B8
If you can't find over 10 good games on this list you are simply a shill.
http://www.gamesradar.com/best-n64-games-all-time/
It irks me when people today complain about exclusivity or timed exclusives. With the exception of a handful of titles pretty much everything is cross. Back then whether you would get the n64, playstation or saturn you'd have a completely different experience.
>>322225149
PS2 greatest of all time
No had a handful of wonderful exclusives and some unique multi-player experiences, but Playstation had more great games in general and the hardware was better. Cartridge memory limits was a mistake and it hurt the potential for every single N64 release
>>322228614
>you are simply a shill.
Underage spotted. Do you even know what a shill is you moron?
>>322226929
> GameCube
That's some baby's first console there. Psx had better library with more classics and so did the 64. Ps2 wasn't as good as psx. Rpgs were a linear shit fest by then
>>322228614
>unironically saying B8
>calling someone who doesn't like a console a shill
>linking to an article to list the games instead of just fucking listing your own favorite games
Sure is underage b& in here
>>322226957
It's held back by N64's controller design though.
>>322228681
Yeah part of the reason it was worth owning each of those consoles is because they each had so many exclusives (at the time) that you simply weren't going to get anywhere else. On top of that the controllers were different as well as the way the games style itself was.
The reason Xbone is so looked down upon on this board is because it really is basically just a weaker PS4. They may have their few exclusive games but can you honestly say those games couldn't be done in the same way on the competition? Back then games like Turok and Goldeneye were simply impossible to have on PS1. Just like games like FFVII were impossible for N64 to have.
>>322228803
>this whole fucking post
Unless you lived during this era no one has a clue what they are talking about. I wish I could go back to when I was 12 and tell myself not to get an N64. The games were shit and expensive as fuck.
Most early 3D games have aged like shit, bad framerate, bad graphics, bad controls, etc
Nostalgia fags cherry pick a few good ones on each console & pretend all games were like that
6th gen was a lot better, Xbox was the only shitty one & even then it had better exclusives then any of the 8th gen consoles do, then again with everything going multiplat it's kinda an unfair comparison
>>322228713
>>322228858
Nice same fagging.
>baka
>>322225149
PS2 takes GOAT title.
N64 & PS1 will always have a special place in my heart though
>>322229173
>I wish I could go back to when I was 12 and tell myself not to get an N64. The games were shit and expensive as fuck.
Oh god this. My dad got me an N64 when I was a kid because the PS1 was too expensive, but games were so expensive that I spent the entire 5th gen with nothing but Donkey Kong 64 and Pokemon Stadium. I had to rent everything else. I didn't own any other N64 game until well into the Gamecube era.
>>322229173
Must suck being a poorfag. I had the Saturn, PS1 and N64 with tons of games for each. Well except Saturn but I still had a decent amount of games for it.
>>322229269
>even then it had better exclusives then any of the 8th gen consoles do
???
>>322228996
Other than the poor quality of the analog stick, the N64 controller works well enough for FPS games. Golden Eye is the first game I can think of that used what would become the standard FPS layout with movement in the left hand with the d-pad and aiming with the stick. This control scheme was not the default, so I think a lot of people probably never realized it existed. Developers have refined the implementation, but the controller layout is fine.
>>322229269
>Most early 3D games have aged like shit,
>things only an underaged /v/irgin would say
>>322229137
PS1 could probably do Turok, but it would have looked different obviously, no texture filtering/polygon jitter etc
Now all consoles are just slightly different PC's
>>322229454
That list is pretty bad
Bloodbourne is the only good one, Nier might be good, but knowing Platinum it will be short as fuck
>>322229454
You implying those exclusives are truly great in anyway? Some may be decent at best but I guarantee none will stand the test of time. Like it or not faggot but OOT will remain being a 5th gen game that people will remember long into the future while this entire list you posted will become forgotten within even just the next console generation.
There is a reason you still to this day hear so much about certain older games where as games like TLOU are already becoming forgotten by the industry and fans alike.
>>322229541
Turok would have been a mess on PS1. It would have had a terrible fps. It couldn't have even been made until the DS controller came out anyways.
Have you not seen how poor Doom runs on PS1 next to how Doom 64 ran?
>thinking N64/PSX is best gen
kek
>>322228374
Then you didn't pay attention, because I said I was >>322226141, I was actually making fun of underages who only played older games through emulation before you, sorry.
Also, yeah, stereotypes exist for a reason. People yelling "kiddy shit!" when talking videogames are most likely CoD pubescents.
I also don't think you've explored the N64 catalogue enough.
Again, I'm not saying the N64 is the best console ever, I think 5th gen overall was pretty shit compared to 3rd and 4th gens, but people saying "N64 only had mario and zelda! aged badly!" etc are just showing how little they know about their own hobby.
>>322225149
I can't because you are objectively right. MGS1 is the greatest game of all time.
>>322229861
Quake 2 runs & looks pretty good on PS1
>>322226059
What children always underestimate is to appreciate how the games handled the transition from 2D to 3D, this is for example why someone playing Ocarina of Time now simply cannot appreciate all the little details and attention that was put into the game.
Things like the damn intro sequence where navi pumps into a fence only to go through after readjusting her three-dimensional position would seem incredibly pedestrian these days, but having that little detail in the intro for everyone who only ever played 2D was great. Things like the first dungeon being largely vertical to ease you into the new perspective, the camera and three dimensional controls, the way you could just screw around and practice shit at the start to get rupees and shit, all seem so mundane.
Kids just don't understand what it means to pioneer, and who can blame them? Innovation of that degree is fucking dead in modern gaming, and we're mostly seeing regression these days.
>>322230181
>People yelling "kiddy shit!" when talking videogames are most likely CoD pubescents.
Those type of people aren't really real you know. They haven't been real for two generations now.
You shouldn't believe every meme you see on Youtube.
>>322230318
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI4QvEh_DTo
This looks good to you? It looks like fucking ass. Doom 1 was the only good FPS on PS1 and even then it's not like it played optimal in anyway.
I was a N64 kid but having grown up and played a lot more PS1 games, I can say N64 didn't even come close. It's pretty overrated actually. The few good games it has are about as fun as a mediocre SNES game and the controller is abominable
>>322230404
Yeah ok whatever, my point is that people saying that some video games are "kiddy" are fooling themselves into thinking they're some mature shit.
The only actual kiddy games are edutainment games, everything else can be for all ages as long as it's a good game to play.
When I was 8 I was crazy about Mortal Kombat because of the blood and fatalities. So mature, man.
>>322230379
being innovative back then doesn't mean it aged well
a game can be innovative and significant even if it doesn't hold up today
>>322230686
Opposite for me, I grew up with a PS1 only, but ended up playing a lot more hours on a N64 I got later.
PS1 had too many shovelware and the amount of quality games on it is, at the very least, questionable.
I think both N64 and PS1 are overrated though. Any popular console is, to some degree.
>>322230726
I'm not about to suggest it aged well, just the opposite if you pay attention to what I said, people cannot appreciate innovation they didn't experience when it happened, as such those details are entirely mundane, even bothersome as things that are now standard are explained.
I mean, graphically the N64 games look like ass compared to what we have now, and many little design problems that have been fixed years ago are prevalent.
I used to spend months playing Perfect Dark and it was the best game I'd ever played, but going back to it now it's actually pretty awful compared to twin-stick shooters.
Still, Perfect Dark managed to ruin modern shooters for me, as they're all so fucking dull and simplistic by comparison, so dumbed down despite having superior graphics and controls.
>>322230725
>everything else can be for all ages as long as it's a good game to play
Nintendo damage control at its finest.
Anon wasn't saying that playing kiddy shit was wrong. It's just that some people simply aren't amused by Mario & Banjo Kazooie.
>>322230379
Wish I could screencap this post. So well said my friend.
>>322231062
>Wish I could screencap this post
Then just screencap it you samefag.
>>322229669
if you grew up with PS4 like you did with N64 you'd think back on it just as fondly or even more so.
>>322229714
The notion that no 8th gen games will stand the test of time is absolutely ludicrous. Each gen will have its classics. And soon 7th gen and also 8th gen games will join the ranks of FF7 and OoT as soon as the newer generation grows up and becomes nostalgic over them.
Most of us adults have realized many of the games we grew up with aged poorly, but for the manchildren still stricken with nostalgia, they grow jaded and bitter and think that their favorite games as a child will be the only games that are ever good or remembered.
Last gen was one hell of a gen, with great games like New Vegas, Demon's Souls, Ninja Gaiden 2, XCOM, GTA4/GTA5, RDR, Wipeout HD, Mario Galaxy, Bamham, etc.
2016 also looks fantastic with games like DkS3, Ni-Oh, Street Fighter V, Uncharted 4, Horizon, Persona 5, Nier Automata, No Man's Sky, XCOM2, Firewatch, Deus Ex, Tides of Numera, Quantum Break, DOOM, Gravity Rush 2, Yakuza 0, and a ton more.
>>322230725
Some games are kiddy. Super Mario Galaxy is one of the most fun platformers I've ever played gameplay wise but it's very kiddy in its theme and so I get bored quick because it doesn't really engage my mind. If my 8 year old self had played the game, I would've been blown the fuck out with amazement. I have this experience with pretty much all Nintendo games. Very good gameplay, technically on point with beautiful colorful graphics, but just not compelling.
>>322230996
Nintendo is the only one making "Kiddy" games?
I also enjoy a lot of "Kiddy" games from Sega (Fantasy Zone, Wonder Boy in Monster Land, Puyo Puyo) or Sony (Jumping Flash, Parappa, UmJammer Lammy).
Maybe you're just obsessed with some imaginary nintendo damage control boogeyman? that ain't real, yo.
I just find it hard to believe that some people prevent from enjoying good videogames just because it isn't gritty and dark. Mind you, I also love gritty and dark vidya (as long as they're good).
>>322230943
PS1 had a ton of games and therefore a whole bunch of bad ones, but it still had more good games than N64 in my opinion.
>>322230379
Good riddance. Innovation is waggle shit like the wiimote or bullshit like VR, or pretentious garbage like Her Story or 80 Days.
I'd rather just have great games that take advantage of our tech.
Gaming is better than its ever been.
>>322231290
You're getting really defensive over your kiddy shit.
I don't get why it's hard for people to realize that not everyone likes the same thing.
>>322231136
>2016 looks fantastic
They said 2015 looked fantastic last year as well, the only games I'd rate highly are Phantom Pain (which is carried almost entirely by how well they managed to make it run on my crappy PC and the overall handling of the game, story and such were complete shite and the codec conversations were my favorite parts of other MGS titles) and maybe Bloodborne though that one is entirely due to hearsay so take it with a grain of salt.
FO4 was a disaster, W3 was hot garbage (how the fuck do you mess up something as basic as character handling in a game of this scale?) and I'm actually struggling to remember other noteworthy releases last year.
Innovation is fucking dead, and the excitement that came with it is gone as well.
PS1 is far superior to the N64. sony was really fucking lucky nintendo didnt go the CD route or else they would have been fucked
>>322231368
>Innovation is waggle shit like ....
The jump from 2D to 3D was innovation, the addition of an extra thumbstick to controllers was innovation, all those quality of life upgrades that were constantly being improved have come to a dead stop, you can meme all you like with citing a few failed experiments though, if denial makes you feel better.
PS1 I found were the best for story driven games
N64 were the best for gameplay driven titles.
The extra storage space vs the extra horsepower really divided genre's between games.
>>322231439
You're getting defensive over being repeatedly wrong with your accusations, first that I was an underage emulation kid, next that I was a nintendo apologist. Now you're calling me defensive just because I replied to your bullshit ad-hominem.
>>322231471
That's because all the games were delayed to 2016 champ. 2015 was actually pretty great (and MGSV was certainly not why). Witcher 3 movement has been patched for months by the way.
>Innovation is fucking dead, and the excitement that came with it is gone as well.
Good riddance. I don't want innovative bullshit. I just want good games that take advantage of the tech.
I'd rather see innovative game concepts and genres (like Until Dawn which is why I enjoyed it so much), than gimmicky bullshit like motion gaming or VR.
>>322230726
>doesn't mean it aged well
What the hell does this even mean jackass? I am serious. Define what you think this shit means.
I get the feeling I know why people say this all the time but until you define it I will just keep that thought to myself.
>ps1 had this
>it's all i needed
>>322231906
Have you honestly never heard of the saying "x has stood the test of time?"
>>322231781
>repeatedly wrong with your accusations
The only thing I've accused you of was being defensive over kiddy shit. Which you are by telling anybody who thinks differently from you to go back to CoD.
>emulation kid
>nintendo apologist
I never accused you of either of those things. Don't lie for emphasis.
Take a chill pill. Go play Elmo's Counting Adventure or somethhing.
>>322231906
the whole "aged" argument is some new millenium meme.
basically it means that people's attention spans are different depending on their generation, so they can't appreciate stuff that doesn't cater to what they're used to.
It's like calling books or classical music dated because now 4-panel internet memes and 3 minute pop songs exist.
>>322231916
1 > 2 > 3
All were good though, wish 3d platformers were still a thing outside of bare bones shit made to sell toys
>>322232043
>Take a chill pill. Go play Elmo's Counting Adventure or somethhing.
Sounds like fun. Will do.
You can take some meth and play some online shooter with yelling 12 year olds on the mic, sounds like a plan?
>>322231882
Seriously why do you think innovation is exclusively gimmicks? The fact that that's what it's been reduced to is part of the fucking problem.
>Witcher 3 movement has been patched for months by the way
I'm aware, it was just staggering that they released it in that state. What they also didn't fix was the atrocious writing, saying W3 has "decent writing" is like calling Twilight "literature" but even if that was resolved you'd still have entirely borked gameplay because "you're Geralt, a Witcher, so play Skyrim with only swords and a dodge button!"
Where the fuck is setting traps, brewing potions, prepping a specialized kit of tools
>Nope just run up to things and hit them with your sword like every ARPG ever, maybe cast a quick-cast spell or throw some random spell-like bomb at them for variety!
You'd think they'd train Witchers to at least use fucking spears considering what they're fighting.
>>322232079
>It's like calling books or classical music dated because now 4-panel internet memes and 3 minute pop songs exist.
Most people really think like this, but wouldn't outright state it. If you could examine people and see the ratio of time spent reading books and listening to orchestral music to time spent on social media and youtube, you'd cry tears of agony.
>>322232193
No thanks. I'd rather finish up FFX and maybe replay the Ratchet & Clank trilogy.
>>322232003
See >>322232079
>>322232079
This is pretty much more along the lines what I was going to say. I'll just put it in an altered post.
Look here you fags. It isn't the game that has aged. The game isn't a food product or an animal. It's not an alcoholic beverage like wine. It is a video game that never changes. The only the that changes is the day of the year.
It isn't the game that has aged. It is YOU the faggot that says this that ages. I get that a persons tastes may change over time but that doesn't mean the game changed. It is YOU YOU HUMUNGOUS FAGGOT that has a different taste in gaming now. If you are someone that hasn't played these games at the time or closer to the time they released then what's going on here is that the game simply isn't appealing to what you like or are even used to. I have played games well before my time (like colleco vision for example) and I didn't go "hehe this are shit it has aged poorly XD."
Because I understood that it is a product of it's time. Not a fucking piece of cheese.
It's a really annoying meme/buzzword.
>>322232401HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!
No but seriously, you were shitting aginst "kiddy" shit then you play FFX and ratchet and clank? You're just fucking with me.
>>322232339
Can you honestly claim classic literature and orchestral music are by definition objectively better than that, though?
I'd assume the comparison alone would be rather awkward, and myself being partial to classic literature and orchestral music would make me a rather biased observer in the comparison, but I can't help but wonder if the actual merits are there.
PS2 was better.
I don't think I need to back that up.
>>322232516
Youtube can be pretty enriching if you actually watch videos where you can learn something but most people I know just watch banal shit like cat videos and fights, and social media is pure ego stroking so almost anything you can actually benefit from and engage your mind is better than that shit.
>>322225149
It wasn't a rivalry, it was a fucking slaughter. Sony always kept winning since this era, they have never been able to be matched since.
even back then people thought most ps1 and n64 games looked like shit
>>322232609
it hit all the high points for the time
>DVD player
>full backwards compatibility
and for my 16 year old self at the time
>plenty of entry-level weeb games
>>322232501
There was this kid I knew in grade school who only played Nintendo games.
But if there was a non-Nintendo game that he liked, he'd call it "an honorary Nintendo game".
You're acting a lot like him right now. Just replace "Nintendo" with "kiddy"which is easy since they're interchangeable anyway.
>>322232464
You simply fail to comprehend a really clear concept.
Something aging mostly relates to it being replaced/obsolete, the invention of paper for example aged extremely well simply because there aren't a lot of things you could improve on the product, late SNES graphics age really well because there isn't a lot to improve, whereas early 3D graphics aged terrible because the improvements came very rapidly (just compare the graphics of say FF7 and FF8)
Aging poorly in that regard simply means it's outdated and doesn't compare well to modern product, this is also why 2D is often called "timeless" because we've not really been able to improve on it.
>>322232282
I never said Witcher 3 has decent writing. Not sure why you're quoting me. I thought The Witcher 3 was very overrated. Horrible combat, repetitive fetch quests, broken leveling system, no sense of progression, dull and empty world, and so on. Doesn't change that many other games in 2015 were great.
And you can brew potions and you can set traps with Yrden. I may not have thought TW3 was that great, but I at least finished it and don't spew shit that it outright false.
>>322232464
Really it comes down to how much the game tried to use new tech that wasn't quite polished. Most 2D games hold up great, and games like Oregon Trail, Tetris, and Pac-Man are still fun today. But early 3D models and worlds, voice acting, animations, etc. that may have all seemed revolutionary are now downright awful and cringeworthy.
It's mostly just N64 games that aged poorly. Most NES, SNES, and PS2 games hold up fine. If you didn't play games like OoT or SF64 when they came out, tough luck, because they are shit today.
>>322232667
Mental enrichment is a pretty pedestrian matter though, unless you can tell me the meaning of life and how being more mentally enriched contributes, arguing that your hobbies and past-times are more valuable or better than others is just a juvenile superiority fantasy, a distinction with no practical value.
>>322232787
There you go again with your imaginary nintendo boogeymen. At least now I know it dates back to grade school traumas. A bully perhaps?
I grew up as an idort. You sound like a Sony fanboy to me though. You hate kiddy games, unless they're on Sony platforms. Maybe if kiddy games are from Sony, they become "honorary mature games"?
>>322230379
Highly underrated post
>your parents got you a PS1 for christmas but didn't get you a memory card until like two weeks after so you just left the console on
Serious question, why didn't the console come with a memory card? There must of been tons of other kids who got the PS1 with no way to save their games.
>>322232787
>Just replace "Nintendo" with "kiddy" which is easy since they're interchangeable anyway.
Enoying Knack?
>>322232962
>your imaginary nintendo boogeymen
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about here. I never accused you of being a Nintendo apologist. Are you just rehashing an argument you used before? You're clearly parroting someone here.
>>322232949
I disagree and I think arguing that all hobbies are equally valuable is nothing more than a way to protect your (general you) ego.
>>322232835
It was not you I was quoting, though I can see why you'd think so, my bad.
>You can set traps with Yrden
Not the kind of traps I meant, anon, I meant actually specialized traps that have a tangible effect on combat other than some numbers.
You know, a different style of hunting other than just walking up and manfighting monsters, instead using tactics and preparation to take them down, as if you're actually a monster hunter and not a monster fighter.
>Doesn't change that many other games in 2015 are great
Please don't presume I'm being contrarian here, I'd actually love to hear what games in 2015 you thought were worthwhile.
>>322233138
Tell me more about that nintendo fanboy bully in grade school. Did he sexually abuse you?
>>322231136
>Most of us adults have realized many of the games we grew up with aged poorly, but for the manchildren still stricken with nostalgia, they grow jaded and bitter and think that their favorite games as a child will be the only games that are ever good or remembered.
You fags are so hilarious. Similar things can be said about the likes of you. That instead of looking at older games with a much more open viewpoint that underaged shitters would rather bitch and complain about mechanics before their time.
Not everyone who prefers older games is going to think as you said here. But to say that older games never have value once they are old is equally as stupid. Old movies, books and music don't just become old outdated pieces of shit moron. They just become products of their time.
Whether a person wants to enjoy these products in the modern day is entirely up to them.
However amongst "gamers" you often see fags like you that prefer to insult anything old instead as if it's the developers and the products fault itself when this isn't usually the case at all. It's the persons fault.
>>322225149
Owned every system from the SNES forward except gamecube and dreamcast. N64 was awesome in 1996 but going back and trying to play those games really sucks now. It should stay in the past.
PS1 was cool but PS2 was the best system of all time...huge library, backwards compat, played movies etc.
This generation i'm enjoying the Wii U the most but all 3 consoles, 2 handhelds and the PC are awesome right now. It's probably the best time in history if you play video games as a hobby.
>>322233052
Weirdly enough, I don't think Gamecube came packed with one either. I'm not sure about PS2 because I got mine used, but you'd think they would include such an important piece of hardware.
>>322233314
Not the author of this post but linking it since it explained fairly concisely and there's no need to restate the argument:
>>322232794
>>322232401
>complains about kiddy games
>plays ratchet and fucking clank and the gayest FF game besides VIII
>>322233156
I'm not arguing all hobbies are equally viable, I'm arguing that making a distinction when "value" or "merits" haven't been determined is a complete waste of time.
For all you know you're just deluding yourself that you're spending time meaningfully, but unless you understand what is meaningful and what isn't, that assumption is of no value. Considering the incredibly subjective nature of the idea of value and meaning, the debate in general is foolish in an absolute sense (the actual act of debating it, however, could still have merit)
The simplest example I can give you is that if the best value in past-time activities is to reduce stress to increase efficiency in performance, then mental enrichment is going to be a detriment, as it distracts and takes away focus from primary activities, whereas braindead entertainment will reduce stress and not distract, in this context your mentally enriching activities are actually the dumb thing to do, and thinking yourself superior for it even more so. The matter is complicated, and a false sense of superiority is probably not wise.
>>322229669
>Only BB is good meme
>Platinum in charge of game length somehow when they're just involved in combat design
EBIN
>>322233356
If you were running a business and you could sell a necessary piece for $20 separately or include for free with another product, which would you do?
>>322233559
R&C has adult jokes and shit throughout the series.
I also find you have no concept of what gay means.
>>322232794
>Replaced/obsolete
You realize this is only accurate when something has 100% replaced that obsolete item in its intended niche, correct? The only thing that will make a game obsolete is a remaster/remake of it in the future. Until then, it still fulfills an entertainment experience that you'll never get from anything else.
Mind you, this is a completely different discussion than it
>looks like shit
or
>Plays like shit
>>322233569
You make a good point. I don't really have a good counterargument but I'm not budging from my opinion that some past-times are stupid wastes of time. That's just my opinion, however irrational it may be.
>>322233356
>I'm not sure about PS2 because I got mine used, but you'd think they would include such an important piece of hardware.
Not the PAL version at least, I got mine on launch and had to buy a separate memory card.
>>322232124
1 was the only good one.
2 and 3 were autistic platformers with autistic characters for autistic autists. All what the games needed were dragons and the enemies of the dragons. That's it.
>>322233712
Not who you're talking to, but what the fuck is an "adult joke"
Teenage "mature" humor is just that, mind.
>>322233614
>or include for free with another product
>include for free
Pretty sure that's not how it works.
But you have a point, which raises the question as to why they include controllers.
>>322233304
The way you keep accusing me of bashing Nintendo when I'm just trying to explain to you that some people don't like kiddy games, I'd believe it if you were the "honorary Nintendo" kid.
And if so...
>you
>a bully
Whatever you have to tell yourself to get to sleep at night.
>>322225149
n64 had like 10 games worth remembering and they've all since been rehashed on later consoles.
That doesnt make them any less classic but i dont think you can compare that to a console which basically designed the modern controller, and is responsible for JRPGs becoming popular in north america.
>>322226141
I'm old as fuck senpai and can say without any doubt that the best era of consoles was the one op posted. megadrive / snes era wasn't that much better than the master system / nes era besides more licensed games and slightly more polished graphics and sound.
>>322233807
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9q5_fJ6WIA
>>322233884
Sony didn't make FF7, Squaresoft did.
>Best console rivalry
As fucking if.
>>322233712
>R&C is adult because it has some adult jokes!
Yeah, disney movies also have jokes for dads
>>322228698
onli console with over 10,000 games
>>322234006
I'm not sitting through that furry shit, lol.
greentext the joke so I can laugh at how cringe it is.
>>322234158
>which as of March 2014 accounted a total of 3874 released games.
Try again.
>>322233559
Ratchet and Clank is more comparable to something like Star Wars or Guardians of the Galaxy. Good for all ages, funny with good writing and adult humor.
Mario and most Nintendoshit is more like Sesame Street or Rugrats.
>>322233993
>I'm old as fuck senpai and can say without any doubt that the best era of consoles was the one op posted.
Nah man 6th gen was the golden age of consoles: Dreamcast, PS2, Xbox and GCN were all the shit in their own ways.
>>322233760
Well, it happens quite a bit, nobody is going to play something like Perfect Dark these days without asserting it aged poorly, because everything it did has been done better by more modern games, innovation has taken over both in terms of visuals and gameplay, I'm not about to say it's "bad" but the fact remains that everything it did is now outdated.
One thing I'd say is fairly timeless is sound design, it's not something that can really age. But graphics get updated all the time, just the fact that remakes constantly happen is proof of that, but also gameplay gets outdated because we get better controllers, better programming etc (also worse, obviously, but things like the camera movement in classics like Mario 64 and Ocarina of time are good examples here)
Aged poorly just means (many) elements have been rendered obsolete, that's how the term is used, so just keep that in mind.
Best Retro gen: 4th
Best Modern gen: 6th
>>322234083
It's just all around for all ages, likeKamen Rider
Nintendo is hilarious that they tried to go for a more mature game by getting Bayo 2 but subsequently have time and time again censored every fucking release because of console for children & family friendliness.
The worst thing is that Bayo 2 is worse than Bayo 1.
>>322234242
Good shitposting, senpai.
>>322233869
It's okay, you didn't need to explain anything to me. Your childhood traumas with nintendo fans and how kiddy games are acceptable as long as they're not on Nintendo was enough to me to understand your point.
Have a great year, anon.
>>322225957
Mega drive? What kind of weird rich faggot were you? You meant to say Genesis.
>>322234006
>Potty humor about going commando is mature humor
Okay, so I take it you're still a teenager then? Please let me hope you'll still grow out of this mentality...
>>322234421
>Calling it some dumb americanized game
Yeah no. Mega Drive. Says it on the damn system plate.
>>322234376
>The worst thing is that Bayo 2 is worse than Bayo 1.
Nice salt, bro! I bet you played it, hahahah.
Enjoying the shit PS3 port of Bayonetta 1?
Also I wasn't shtiposting, I'm really not going to sit through furry shit, greentext the joke for me.
>>322232794
>whereas early 3D graphics aged terrible because the improvements came very rapidly (just compare the graphics of say FF7 and FF8)
You seem to be implying that because 3D graphics have improved that it becomes impossible to enjoy older 3D graphics. I get what you said. I understand many people say this. The problem is I not only can still enjoy "aged" graphics but I would argue that in some cases they actually improve a lot of these games.
It's not even just me. I have seen threads on horror games before where some anons said that they believed a part of what made some of those games scary was the older graphics obscuring the vision more. Basically it made the monsters look a lot more uncanny in appearance. These are things that you just can't emulate as well with better graphics.
Don't believe me? You think Minecraft would have taken off like it did had it had graphics meant to wow people with how detailed modern games can look? No it wouldn't have had the charm that people have grown to like about the games. In addition to the building I guarantee a large reason for that games success is because it is stylish with it's older so called "aged poorly" 3D graphics.
>>322234507
You didn't even watch the vid m8
>>322234528
>Spoonfeed me!
No. Watch the furry shit or fuck off.
>>322234256
All of that is kiddy shit fag.
>>322234256
Mario is good for all ages because it's all about the gameplay.
R&C is some disney-tier shit.
Which makes you correct, since SW and Marvel are disney-tier now.
>>322233805
I thought 1 was the best since it had no backtracking
Having to go back to a level just to access one area due to acquiring a new skill or character was annoying as fuck, I like being able to collect everything as I go along
>>322234365
Explain
>>322234552
Just because something aged poorly doesn't mean it's impossible to use or enjoy. Parchment is entirely outdated and didn't age well due to being replaced by paper, but that doesn't mean I couldn't write an essay on a piece of parchment.
Just let go of the idea that "aged poorly" means "bad" and you might actually get to understanding what people mean by the term, though I can totally understand why you'd have that association with it, it's simply faulty.
>>322234606
Okay then, anyway someone else already said it was potty humor or something, LOL DUDEWEED.
Cringe, as I expected.
I thought it was adult humor, not teenager humor.
>>322234643
>Star wars
>Kiddy shit
Original trilogy is PG-13, and Jedi was almost R due to leia scenes.
Try again faggot.
>>322234585
I did, actually, purple masked dude makes a clear joke about going commando there.
Or was that not the joke you were referring to?
>>322230181
>People yelling "kiddy shit!" when talking videogames are most likely CoD pubescents.
Sorry, but it is a stereotype forced by people who like kiddie shit and really insecure about it.
>>322234304
>Nobody is going to play something like perfect dark
And there's where your entire post falls apart. People are returning to the old games. If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't be a want for remasters, Sony wouldn't be offering their bullshit emulation service (let's be honest, there were plenty of PS2 games that were shit at the time also).
I hate that I'm bringing this point up, but known youtubers return to games from those eras, and that sparks interest in their viewers. You would probably say a game like Banjo Kazooie has aged like shit. Meanwhile, people are proclaiming how well it's aged and how much they still love it. You can't just make hyperbolic assumptions like that anon.
>>322234824
everything up to ep3 was PG. Try harder faggot.
I never really saw it as a rivalry. The N64 was built to handle 3D games, the PS wasn't. Of course the N64 was going to trounce it.
>>322234528
>Le furry meme joke :DD NOT SHITPOSTING!!!!
>Nice salt, bro! I bet you played it, hahahah.
Ever since release people have panned its combat system as a downgrade but please, do try to hold on to the only game Nintendo was capable of holding their trigger finger from censoring it.
>>322234397
Thanks for killing a this half hour & change with me. This was fun.
I hope you enjoyed this confusing shitpost of an argument as much as I did.
I just remembered I had some Steam games downloading so I'm going to play FFX for a little while then play one of the random Steam sale titles that I bought on impulse.
I'm sure everything in my library fits your all-encompassing idea of "kiddy" vidya though, but whatever. At this point we're just arguing semantics.
You're probably not even going to see this post. You've probably pissed off to shitpost in another thread by now. Well, wherever you are, I hope you don't forget about me.
>>322234869
Stereotypes exist for a reason.
A person who only played kiddy games and refused to play anything else would be weird, too. Same as someone who only playes "Mature games for mature gamers such as myself". There's some fucked psychology if you're that limited.
>>322234856
What the fuck were you watching?
>>322226059
BLAST CORPS.
Remake when?
>>322234694
Yes, the gameplay is simple to appeal to the literal children that it is catered to
>>322235068
Different people like different things, stupid.
I only enjoy hard games, that doesn't mean I have some kind of psychosis, that doesn't mean my taste is superior, that just means I only enjoy hard games.
>>322234728
Best Retro gen: 4th
>Super Nintendo
>Sega Mega Drive (Genesis)
>Atari Jaguar
Best Modern gen: 6th
>Dreamcast
>Gamecube
>Playstation 2
>Xbox
Literally everything out of those 2 gens had so many memorable and fond games people could easily get into
>N64/PS/Saturn
While a good gen, only has a handful of memorable titles. The N64 has about 10 worthwhile games that aren't mario related, the PS1 suffers from a lack of good first party and the Saturn is only good with J Imports.
Gen 3 is runner up for best Retro. but 4 is better designed.
>>322234376
>Bayo 2 was worse than Bayo 1
I just replayed both of them last week. I'd say you're pretty wrong. Bayo 2 is so much smoother and faster. There are more combos you can do, cooler weapons, cooler story, and a cooler final boss. Don't get me wrong, Bayonetta 1 was good for sure, but I think Bayonetta 2 just trounced it.
>>322234856
So you're just retarded then?
>>322232282
>What they also didn't fix was the atrocious writing, saying W3 has "decent writing" is like calling Twilight "literature".
You know, there is actual acclaimed fantasy writer Sapkowsky who wrote books about Geralt.
And please provide me with an example of good writing in this gen's RPG game.
>>322235000
>Ever since release people have panned its combat system as a downgrade
No, you just fell for the salty memesters who were desperately trying to grasp as straws to shit on a 10/10 game.
Bayonetta 2 is as good as the first, in fact it's even better because of one reason: it removed the instakill QTEs.
Everyone who loved the first game liked the second one as well.
Some slightly prefer the second, others slightly prefer the first one, but nobody seriously believes Bayonetta 2 is a "downgrade". The whole "you can't launch enemies on Bayo 2" is a straight lie by the way, again, you fell for memes by people who were salt as all fuck, pic related is the kind of people you trust.
>>322234873
Read the full sentence, people will play Perfect Dark but the imperfections of the control scheme will be very jarring (dual stick is simply far superior) as such it's now "dated"
This obviously doesn't mean there are no good qualities to appreciate in a gem like Perfect Dark, just that it's harder to do so because we're used to better controls and graphics which take focus away from the great elements like level design, weapon variety, etc.
I would also not claim Banjo Kazooie aged like shit, because the core pieces that set it apart did not age like shit, the sound design is timeless, the level design is better than what we see today, the gameplay, particularly skill variety and exploration, problem solving etc. is barely present in modern games, so none of those elements have seen improvement, rather they've seen regression.
Banjo Kazooie is not a graphical masterpiece, but it gets the job done and it's one of the least important aspects, so it's not an issue. There are in fact few games where I'd say they aged poorly, but many games will have elements that did, like the camera in Ocarina of time or the controls in Perfect Dark
Hell a good reason why speedruns are so popular these days is because those older games have something that most modern crap lacks, though describing that would make this post a bit too large.
>>322235208
>Mentioning the Jaguar
>Not mentioning the Gameboy
The Gameboy stayed relevant so long they made a transfer pack for the N64
>>322235142
I bet you can't get through SMB1 without using a continue.
>>322235176
I'd love to see your list of "hard" games.
>>322235454
I was only referring to consoles not handhelds, but yes, Gameboy counts too. As does advance, being 6th.
>>322235532
Devil may cry
Vanquish
Mega man
Battletoads
Bayonetta
Metal gear solid
Resident evil
Call of duty black ops
Come at me.
>>322230379
Thsi so much. When people say that OOT is overrated it's because they don't understand the context in which it was launched and the huge transition that the game was.
>>322235005
Had fun too, anon. Let's enjoy vidya, both kiddy and mature!
>>322235402
>The whole "you can't launch enemies on Bayo 2" is a straight lie by the way
How do you launch enemies without WT then?It's cuhrayzee people who have panned the combat :-) but as long as you're able to jack off to your waifus I guess that's all the combat you need :)If anything, it's platformshitters who keep on praising it as such an epitome of action games.
>>322235532
>having to tag ridiculous requirements on to your babby games to make them seem hard
Next thing you'll be saying Barbie Horse Adventure is hard if you can't get the speedrun world record.
>>322235338
>Actual acclaimed fantasy writer
Right, the Twilight series is also acclaimed so, that means literally fuck all.
Not to mention the games are literally fanfiction that have been panned by Sapkowsky, who didn't write a single word for the games, and lack of good writing in vidya in general is the fucking problem, W3 did nothing to alleviate it, lack of something good doesn't make bad better.
>>322235628
That's an awful list
>>322235628
I like most of those titles except I don't get why you consider MGS, RE or CoD hard.
I'd recommend Castlevania, Ghost and Ghouls and Alisia Dragoon, some games with nice difficulty.
Also, I know you think it's kiddy, but Super Mario Bros. 2 JP/Lost Levels is a really challenging game that's fun as fuck to play, give it a go.
>>322225149
>In just one gen, Microsoft shits up the console war scene by making multiplats a thing
>In its latest gen, Microsoft and Sony share almost a complete library outside of maybe 5% of exclusives, 1% of which are kinda worth playing
Vidya is dying and Microsoft fucked it up.
>>322225819
>muh subjective argument to literally nothingness
Can't disprove a negative, I guess.
>>322234751
Time to break apart your post.
> Parchment is entirely outdated and didn't age well due to being replaced by paper, but that doesn't mean I couldn't write an essay on a piece of parchment.
Problem here is we are talking about entertainment bro. You would be better off comparing games with movies or music. Not things that benefit a persons everyday life. It would be like you comparing gaming with modern laws that have been passed that improved life for the average person. Let's say slavery for example. I won't get into this more but I'm sure you get my point.
>Just let go of the idea that "aged poorly" means "bad"
And I very much get that it doesn't mean this. The problem is more in the way it is used on /v/. I guarantee you that in most cases people use this as a way to troll or say something is bad. It's like the whole gun argument here. Or if you want me to use something from entertainment like i said you should, think about old movies. Think about how assblasted old trilogy star wars fans get at the prequels and the constant so called "updates that improve the movies" that come out.
Gaming has to be the only entertainment medium out there where it's own fans can be so obnoxious and immature that you have people constantly engaging in shit like flamewars, trying to go out of their way to make people understand their viewpoint (most cases just trying to troll) about x game being shit because y game is superior.
Yes I know that technically "aged poorly" doesn't and shouldn't mean a game is bad necessarily. The problem is that is the way it will be used most of the time. That is the problem with it.
You have to know fully well if you browse here enough that when most people here say it's aged poorly or aged like milk they very much go on to bash said game in their posts. This is literally mostly the case on /v/.
>>322235885
First person shooters have camera physics and aiming, not just press a button to jump. You need actual skill to be good dawg.
Your shitty kiddy games are anything that requires minimal effort like pressing a button to jump over a cliff. WOW. can I get a gold star for all my hard work?!
Play a mans game dawg. A MANS GAME.
>>322235885
>hard games
>lists old shitty 2D platformers
It's like poetry
>>322235208
>The N64 has about 10 worthwhile games that aren't mario related
A list was already posted in this thread that proves you wrong.
>>322235963
Honestly I frequently see "aged poorly" used as a warning, so that you go in prepared for it, usually used by people who like the game they're describing but acknowledging that things have gotten outdated.
And it's important, acknowledging ahead of times that some elements are outdated or even bad helps (me at least) allow focus on the good and unique elements. As I've been saying in this thread, Perfect Dark would be my top game of all time ten years ago, now I don't think I'd recommend it to anyone especially without warning them about the control scheme. It's still a great game with great elements, but to assume people can go back and appreciate the innovation and elements that set it apart from the rest at the time is little but wishful thinking.
I'd still describe Perfect Dark as the best game (or at least top 10) on N64, but I'd recommend a lot of different games over Perfect Dark that simply didn't age as poorly as it did (and I would love for some kind of hack that lets you play it with a two-stick controller properly because holy shit that gunplay)
>>322236363
It lacks numerous titles the way its predecessors did.
Mario 64, Zelda, Starfox, Smash, and Goldeneye is all people ever talk about.
Is there more? sure Mischief makers, Goemon, Perfect dark, Banjo, JFG. etc.
But really its not enough to justify the console as "The best console ever". Its got a mediocre library, a grand total of 125 games.
>>322235693
Plenty of ways, you just can't launch them automatically with a regular WW like you could in Bayo 1, which makes sense since Bayo 2's combat is a lot more larger with UC into the equation. You can launch enemies, but there's more limitations otherwise UC would be trivial. But yes, you can launch enemies without WT, some examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFxjEdig0bg
I don't even know why I'm showing you this since you haven't even played the game, but there you go.
Cuhrazeyfags are also comprised of console warriors who are still salty about the Bayo 2 exclusivity. The salt Bayo 2 generated is astronomical.
>>322236630
>Cuhrazeyfags are also comprised of console warriors who are still salty about the Bayo 2 exclusivity.
You're joking right? Plenty of the "competitive" ones have Wii U.
I'm convinced Nintendo is Elder-God tier troll.
>>322236071
>>322236216
You teenagers sure are mean. I just wanted to recommend some good games you might enjoy.
Back to CoD with you!
Ocarina is considered by many to be the best game of all time. Also, Majora's Mask, Mario 64, Smash Brothers, Goldeneye, Banjo 1 and 2, Donkey Kong, Star Fox, Perfect Dark, Mario Party, Tony Hawk, Wave Race, Yoshi's Story, Rogue Squadron, Turok, Pilotwings, Diddy Kong racing.
You couldn't name that many great games if you combined the last two generations of consoles.
>>322234873
>>322235429
You guys are both understating a great argument, which is that the crux of critique is getting better games. Some of that comes from low quality emotional states that just call games shit because they're not exactly like contemporary games, but that's worth filtering obviously.
>>322236868
The fact some of them might not be poorfag/teenagers and actually have enough income to buy multiple consoles don't make them any less of brand loyalists.
And just so you don't think I'm only on Nintendo's side, I know plenty of Nintendo loyalists who own Xbox/PS, but they still talk shit about them just because they prefer Nintendo.
Bayonetta 2 is the game that caused the most salt in recent years, it's not surprising people were still trying to find minimal, subjective and imaginary flaws to claim the game is shit just because it wasn't on their preferred company's system.
>>322236071
>>322236216
I can't bring myself to believe that these posts are for real.
>>322237073
>including so many "alright" games
>claiming N64 is worth a dime compared to PS1
>>322236595
Pretty sure it has over 300 games if I remember correct. People always have picked a few examples no matter what gen of gaming it is. These days it would be hard for you to find the masses talking about anything outside of AC, CoD, Fifa and GTA as being great. Even though there is plenty of great games outside of these that may have sold only an eighth of what those games sold.
It's the same thing with PS1, N64, Dreamcast, etc. Of course the masses will choose just a few games since they were very popular and sold well.
A game I played and beat a couple times that I liked was House of The Dead 2 on Dreamcast. You really think you are going to hear most people talk about that game let alone remember or even know it existed?
You can't use popular opinion in this case. If you did then we might as well just agree that mobile shit's all over all consoles ever made since most people enjoying gaming enjoy it on mobile.
>>322237204
Not really, Bayo was a rather mediocre game with middling sales and a sale fanbase and Bayo2 was an inferior sequel on a dead platform that sold <400k worldwide.
Besides a few cherrypicked facebook and twitter posts, almost no one cared.
Compare that to something like say Bloodborne which had goldface shitposting for weeks and had a petition to bring it to PC with over 50k signatures.
I personally love all this nintendo hate. Hate is a passionate response that proves that nintendo is doing exactly the right thing to gain the attention of the gaming populace. If nintendo was truly shit, all they would get would be indifference.
>>322237537
>Bayo 2
>inferior
In what way? I played both and preferred Bayo 2 to the first one.
>>322237549
Dude, I'm a nintendo fan since the NES. And i'm pretty much convinced the "Worst" company of the year for 2016 will be Ninty.
They decisions they've made as a business as of late have been worse and rivaled even capcom in terms of finanical suicide.
After Iwata passed, whoever took over has money on the mind and doesnt seem to care for production, and thats going to be Nintys downfall.
>>322237204
yet here you are, shitposting about furry shit and using Bayo as your fodder.I think Bayo is mediocre at best and because Wii U has nothing but Bayo 2 and TW101 and will never most likely have anything more to interest me, it's a waste of money in my eyes.
>>322237537
>Bayo was a rather mediocre game
Well, that's your opinion.
>Bayo2 was an inferior sequel
Also your opinion, and most likely parroted, too.
>on a dead platform
loving every grain of salt when people say this.
>that sold <400k worldwide.
It sold more than Bayo 1 in the same time frame, and without a price cut like Bayo 1 did.
It's no secret the action genre is niche in this day and age, though.
Bayo in Smash greatly increased the demand of the game though, as much as I hate the fact that it needed something like Smash to get more popular, it worked, good luck finding a copy of Bayo 2 in retail and paying less than 100 bucks.
Now that you mention BB, it's also kind of surprising that it only sold about 2m copies, on a console with an install base of 30m. Especially since BB is the only PS4 exclusive worth a shit.
>>322237768
Agreed.
With the NX coming out in fall this year and Zelda being dual released, they are going to fracture the fanbase irreparably.
>>322237837
I think you're thinking of another anon, I never mentioned any furry shit in my posts.
>>322237408
They probably aren't. There's almost 200 posts and only 50 IPs. There is a lot of samefagging going on itt.
>>322238015
>With the NX coming out in fall this year and Zelda being dual released
>>322237537
>that sold <400k
It's sold about 600k in physical sales alone last I checked.
>>322238150
>>322237905
>It sold more than Bayo 1 in the same time frame, and without a price cut like Bayo 1 did.
Not at all. It has sold only 182k LTD in ths US, and bombed spectacularly in EU and JP as well. Bayo 2 likely still hasn't even hit 400k WW
Bayo1 shipped 1.4m in just the first few months.
>>322238561
>haven't even said a word about the NX yet
>unironically thinking it'll release this fall
I'm genuinely curious. In what way was Bayonetta 2 worse than Bayonetta 1? I've seen this posted in this thread so many times, and nobody's answered me.
I played Bayonetta 1 on the 360, and then Bayonetta 2 on the Wii U years later. Bayonetta 2 is just so much better than Bayonetta 1 because they touch up all of the mechanics, boost the framerate, make the final boss cooler, you get to play as Rodin, and add a bunch of cool new weapons.
I'm not trying to shitpost, I actually want to know the reasons someone prefers Bayonetta over Bayonetta 2.
>>322225149
>best console rivalry
Sorry, that was the SNES/Genesis. A "rivalry" where one sells 100 million and the other 30 million is not a rivalry, it's a stomping.
>>322238694
>>322238734
Pretty sure it's just one guy who hasn't played Bayo 2 shitposting sales numbers to feel better about not buying a console he's trying to convince himself he doesn't want. Just ignore him.
>>322238886
Doesn't matter if PS1 outsold it by a lot more. They were still both great consoles to own. This was also pretty much the last time Nintendo was so willing to back a ton of more mature games.
>>322239647
>They were still both great consoles to own
The N64 wasn't really worth owning next to the PS1, unless you were a) a kid and b) really needed dat multiplayer
>This was also pretty much the last time Nintendo was so willing to back a ton of more mature games
Wrong. Really wrong. They had a few "mature" titles on the GC and many more on the Wii.
>>322229454
>Danganronpa 3
That's not a videogame what is that doing there who the hell made this fucking image
>>322234421
Lol...i seriously never met anyone who had a megadrive, or a sega cd or a saturn for that matter.
