![Uy4US[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/oWUJMFH.jpg "Uy4US[1].jpg")
If Gwyn and The Witch of Izalith aren't human the what are they?
Giants
giants you stupid faggot
>>322169262
Gwyn is a god
And the Witch is a witch
>>322169321
Gwyn and son aren't even big when you meet them
>>322169367
>>322169427
They are still giants.
>>322169427
they were small giants
even furtive pygmy is just a tiny fucking giant, and gave rise to humanity
Lords.
>>322169427
The Giants vary in size.
Ignore Dark Souls 2 giant lore shit.
>>322169367
Gwyn isn't a god he's a giant with the light soul.
Witch of Izalith is a giant with the life soul
>>322169495
>>322169487
>>322169546
Giants are a separate race. Gough is not the same species as Ornstein.
Gwyn, Smough, Ciaran etc. aren't giants.
>>322169427
Gwyns size got smaller when his soul was absorbed by the first flame.
When you find him, he's basically near pygmy state
>tfw you will never fight Gwyn when he had the full power of his light soul
>>322169510
This makes the most sense.
Manus is most likely the Pygmy, but From could do some shit in DaS3 to change that.
>>322169586
>Gwyn isn't a god
Fuck off herietic
>>322169797
Gwyn a shit.
Nito is the superior Great Lord.
>>322169510
Why are they called pygmies again?
>>322169890
Nigga just sat in his coffin eating boners
Have you prayed to our Lord today, /v/?
>>322169962
pygmy just means a fucking short person
>>322169962
Because they are small and have no form of intelligence or form
>>322169962
Because they are.
In truth, the race of hollowed proto-men from the opening aren't given a name. But since the 'Furtive' Pygmy doesn't look any different to the others I figure they were all pygmies.
The Pygmy is the only one who didn't change or give himself power with his Lord Soul. And I figure hollowing is reverting back to that early state, and it can happen to Lords as well as shown with Gwyn.
>>322170028
>giving artorias a face
Disgusting.
>>322169262
I imagine that the Gods are just undeads with really powerful souls.
Because in the intro video Gwyn wasn't shit until he found the first flame, which could very well be interpreted as the first soul.
He can't be a giant because we meet multiple giants throughout the game, and aside from Gough they're all lumbering buffoons.
I believe that any undead has the potential to become a god, just like Gwyn and Manus. They just have to amass an insane amount of souls.
>>322169962
Easy, pygmy is a moniker for very short people aka midgets. Humans are midgets in comparison to giants.
So where did the giants come from? Gwyn didn't create them, and they aren't a kind of human because Gwyn hates humans.
What are the giants? Are they just a fucked up offshoot of Gwyn's lords?
>>322170149
oh shit you're right
for the longest time I thought it was just a random silver knight
>>322170163
>I imagine that the Gods are just undeads with really powerful souls.
This. I honestly figured Gwyn and his cohorts were just humans that happened to be feeding off of the power of the Lord Soul. Could explain as to why the New Londo Darkwraiths are the size of Anor Londo citizens as they're feeding off of the Lord Soul fragment that the Four Kings have.
>>322169659
They are still called giants even if they are a different type. Like niggers, crackers and chinks are all human.
>>322170149
Artorias has a voice. Why shouldn't he have a face?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upzLAJhtnvk
>>322170474
The residents of Anor Londo are never once in any part of the game called giants. There's nothing anywhere calling them giants.
However, a specific race is referred to as giants. So what are those real giants? Are they also from a different land? They existed as far back as the war with the dragons.
>>322170652
At no point is their race mentioned, we only know about the giants and we assume that they are also giants.
Anyone referring to Gwyn and the others as Giants is fucking retarded. Gough fucking was treated like shit by the others because he was a giant, despite being a fucking Knight. They fucking made him think he had gone blind because they didn't want him serving as Gwyn's Knight.
>>322171213
>we assume these human looking beings of varying sizes are the same species as these inhuman, stoney, dimwitted giants
You have a disability.
>>322171213
This guy >>322171264 fucking gets it
A helm crafted especially for the honorable Hawkeye Gough,
only the eye holes were packed with tree resin
by those who dismissed Gough as a brutish giant.
All Giants are shown as lumbering, disgusting brutes and are treated as such. Gough, who was an official Knight of Gwyn, was fucking 'blinded' by the smiths who made his helmet when he joined the Knights.
>>322169321
>>322169324
They're not giants, they're just separate humanoids that the dark souls lore has not expanded on. There are many of those (like Ciaran)
Why are there separate humanoids from far away lands that "turn" undead? What are they?
>>322171314
Well they can't be humans because humans are an unnatural abomination of the furtive pygmy.
>>322171526
Its a pretty big thing to not expand on.
>>322171896
>humans
>unnatural
Pfft. Lords are the unattural abominations. The Great Lords selfishly held on to their souls, doling out small amounts of power to a small number of their lords and children. The Pygmy tore his soul into millions of shard and spread them throughout the rest of his kin, elevating the pygmies into humans. Gwyn would be just as happy to see his fellow pygmies rot while he hoarded all his power.
Pygmy is the only one who used his soul properly.
>>322169262
INHUMAN
>>322172086
If that theory that Manus = Furtive Pygmy is true, he's kind of a fickle impulsive dick.
>>322172351
>just wants to sleep and be left alone
>Oolacile assholes won't let him sleep
Manus did nothing wrong.
>>322172086
Aww man, that actually makes sense. If the other lords did the same thing the furtive pygmy did we wouldn't have this fucked up imbalance causing the abyss to spread.
>>322171526
No they aren't, they're undead that have yet to have gone hollow. Probably because they attained great power by absorbing the souls of many.
>>322171883
Have you ever seen the Highlander? Its kinda like that.
>>322172351
Doesn't the Dark Soul grow stronger in time? I bet by that time, the Pygmy had grown so strong and corrupted by the dark.
>>322172663
They are undead, but they're not giants or humans. I'd place them somewhere inbetween that spectrum
>>322169262
A God and a Witch.
>>322169321
Fuck off with your made up bullshit.
>>322172351
Non-Izalith Humans really got the shit end of the deal.
>>322169367
>>322172976
How do you define god? Gwyn is an old man that can killed, rather easily.
>>322171896
Gwyn could have very well been a Pygmy that stumbled upon the Great Flame. Its much more likely as opposed to he and his kin being part of a different set of a humanoid species that never gets mentioned once.
>>322172747
Not necessarily. The Dark Soul is a Soul of Fire nonetheless. If Dark Souls 3 doesn't give an explanation it's safe to assume the Dark Soul's power is fading along with the others. Everyone is losing their humanity and going hollow - returning to their souless, undying, unliving pygmy form.
>>322173143
Everything can be killed until there is nothing left.
>>322173143
Their Soul
>>322173143
A god is anything that is worshipped as such.
>>322172351
The Pygmy wasn't a good guy. the reason he was small and shitty was because he received the smallest soul. The Dark Soul grew stronger with time. Don't believe people that say he's not a dick.
>>322173143
Think pagan god not God Almighty, dingus.
Greek gods can be killed. Egyptian gods can be killed. Celtic, Hindu, Norse etc etc etc can all be killed.
You seem to be confusing the idea of immortality with the idea of invulnerability. Immortal simply means outside of time. Invulnerable means you cannot be killed, but can still die due to natural causes.
Superman is invulnerable; time will kill him, but a bullet will not.
Zues is an immortal; time won't kill him, but a bullet might possibly.
>>322172976
None of them are gods. All anyone knows for certain is that they weren't human. Dragon is pretty clear but the game only ever refers to those who decided to pilfer some magic shit from primeval fire as "ones".
>>322173143
Don't listen to them. Like Logan says, there aren't any Gods, just extraordinary humanoids.
>>322173143
Well actually that's exactly what Big Hat Logan theorized
''Gods'' were just indviduals who posessed greant and powerful souls
>>322173216
Humanity are fragments of the Dark Soul, and they don't look exactly like fire.
>>322173350
That's a weird matter of perspective. Your cat might think of you as some kind of god, but do you?
>>322169262
They are the same as humans, biologically, except they lack the Dark Soul
In the Dark Souls universe you are a human BECAUSE you have the Dark Soul. Gwyn, Witch of Izalith and so forth are the same species basically just without humanity.
>>322173697
cats don't worship humans. when they rub against you, they're marking you as their posessions
>>322173498
>Greek, Roman, Celtic, Norse gods can all be killed
>the Christian God can't
Christians are literally "that kid".
>>322169262
Beings which inherited the power of demigod's
Gwyn found the soul of an old Lord
WoI reignited the life-force of primordial Man (the pygmy) and became burdened with all the shit that comes with it - as well as a planet of the ape's scenario
It's worth noting that there are no gods or higher beings; just those with more souls - and that changes them
>>322173868
Both random and irrelevant.
>>322173143
in the sense of Greek gods, but not immortal. though the Greek gods killed most of the titans so there's potential for them to die too.
basically, really really powerful beings, not entities that exist outside of time.
>>322173869
Jesus is a Gary Stu
>if he wanted to he could use all kinds of powers and the devil tries to tempt him into doin that but he doesn't because he's like super humble and stuff
>>322172886
Look at it from this perspective. The undead aren't humans at all, they come from humans but because of their special trait that makes them entirely different.
I like to think of them as akin to a Greek god. They look like humans, they walk and talk like humans, they can even be the size of humans. But because of their potential power they scare the shit out of humans, and are thus cast out of human society. Which would mean that every undead has the potential to become a god, even the player character.
>>322173697
Anything can be a god. God doesn't just refer to the Christian creation deity who is 100% immortal, invulnerable, omnipotent, omniscient and infallible. A god is just anything that is believed to be a god.
The Old One in Demon's Souls was worshipped by some as God, but it wasn't an infallible creator. In Bloodborne the Great Ones are worshipped as gods, but they can be killed with a cleaver.
>>322173603
The Dark Soul still originated from Fire is what that meant. Its nature is unclear. It's different from the other Lord Souls but it's also similar. Hoping DaS3 will have answers. The fact that Embers look like a burnt Humanity is curious.
>>322174004
are you okay?
>>322174060
I think I'm getting confused because you're calling them undead. Literally everything in the dark souls universe cam be undead, even the dragons
>>322173143
>>322173505
>How do you define god?
It doesn't matter how I define it. Gods are what Gwyn's race calls themselves and no one in the game disagrees. The name of their race is gods. If you're going to make up a new bullshit name for them, at least pick one that isn't already taken by one or more other races, especially since one of those races SERVES THE GODS.
>>322174109
That's still all relative. White people might have seemed like gods to certain now-extinct savage races but that doesn't make them gods. Even in greek mythology, no one was called a god unless they exhibited immortality and profound supernatural control of the universe. All else were just called titans.
>>322174376
Undead dragons exist, but they're not the same as hollowed human undead.
Undead humans are humans who have lost their soul, undead dragons are ancient dragons infested with rot and disease, just barely clinging on to life. Dragons don't have souls to lose, so they can't become hollowed.
>>322174523
It literally does make them a god. If it's called a god is it a god. Every mythology and religion has different definitions of gods. If it's worshipped as a god then it is a god.
>>322174523
>White people might have seemed like gods to certain now-extinct savage races but that doesn't make them gods.
The fuck does this mean?
>>322169262
It's really amazing that Dark Souls 2 didn't expand on any of this shit, and managed to make the lore even more vague.
Just going to hope Dark Souls 3 fixes that.
>>322174581
>Dragons don't have souls to lose, so they can't become hollowed.
they all had souls to lose and, in fact, lost them. Wasn't the ancient dragon in DS2 described as some sould just playing the part of a dragon? I think that implies that the souls can even be swapped.
And wherever you fight that giant spider, there's a special soul just kind of lying on the ground for you to pick up, but if you look upwards, there's a fuckin dragon all dried up and trapped in a spider's web. Pretty sure it's implied that it was one of the souls of the dragons who used to rule before the 4 lords went ahead with their upheaval.
>>322174376
Would you prefer me to call them Immortal instead? I call them undead because that is what the game calls them.
As for the dragons you're referring to the dragon zombies, which are vastly different than the immortal humans given that they don't have souls.
>Gwyn is the only lord who ever went hollow
>every single lord aside from Gwyn has more willpower
>even ladyboi Gwyndolin has more willpower
Embarassing.
>>322174581
>Dragons don't have souls to lose, so they can't become hollowed
But I get 60k souls + a part of Gwyn's soul. Also is it ever explained that the undead dragons you encounter in the game are just diseased (other than inferring that from their moveset)
>>322174895
It was literally taught in school. Settle down.
>>322174909
Why would it? The gods were fading and the witches were almost all dead already. Frankly if they showed up at all, it'd be much worse.
>>322175114
The rest of them weren't being used as fuel.
>>322175114
He burnt his Lord Soul, though.
>>322175182
Never fucking reply to me again unless you're contributing to the thread.
>>322175114
He actually gave his own soul away though. I know the 4 kings got part of it and that was a big part of the lore. Think seathe got another piece of it. Can't remember who else got it.
But yeah, the Gwyn you found was literally just the shitty remnants of gwyn and his soul.
Posting his battle theme because of how well it fit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB6sOhQan9Y
>>322175228
So why even make a second game?
What physically happens when the kiln of the first flame fades? Obviously the world isn't destroyed, right? Gwyn was just afraid of losing his power.
>>322174909
>Play Dark Souls for 300 hours soaking up all the lore and worldbuilding.
>Jump into SotFS earlier this year
>Cringe at every single item description and most NPC dialogues.
I had to stop playing that shit. It's so bad.
>>322175114
Gwyn went hollow because he gave the rest of his soul to save the society he created, which eventually collapsed anyway.
Also, the 4kids could have been hollowed. And the Witch turned into a helpless bug. Seathe went crazy trying to give himself scales.
Gwyndolin is the only one who isn't insane.
>>322175423
You asked me a question, bro. If you don't know how to play nice, just leave.
>>322175539
Money.
>>322175562
I agree. As much as I do like Das2 I admit that a lot of the dialogue was horribky hamfisted, and needlessly cryptic
>>322175546
That is Dark Souls 3.
I wish I'd played Dark Souls on release.
I had too much of the story spoiled for me.
>>322175546
That's a good question... I think there was some reason like it meant the death of gods of light or something.
>>322175562
>all that fan-fiction tier boss cycle shit
>finding the Sunlight alter
>>322175546
Nothing actually happens. The world doesn't change at all. If you let it die and become the dark lord the abyss spreads, but that's nothing to do with the flame itself. If you light the flame then the dark stays, it just has a tougher time spreading.
>>322175574
>Gwyndolin is the only one who isn't insane.
He was raised as a woman and even masqueraded as his sister. Pretty sure he's insane.
>>322176247
Fair enough, he's still the most stable of the bunch.
Thread theme, boys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6JH0EfTIKw
>>322172427
Well unlike other people who had to earn their power he just sits on it to become more powerful. Something had to be done otherwise he "does nothing" and just consumes all of existence.
>>322175546
The opening cinematic puts it fairly clear. In the beginning there was nothing but stone, then the flame erupted, which made it possible for life to bloom. From the flame came the lord souls, heat and cold, light and dark, all that shit we see.
But eventually the flame will fade and the world will go back to stone. And it's presumed that it will ignite again, like some big-bang sort of thing and begin the cycle anew.
>>322169262
Izalith is a gross tranny that I know. He changed his name to Izalith and I can't fucking say it without laughing my ass off.
They're humans with huge power levels who started calling themselves gods.
>>322176624
I don't think the flame's mere existence is what allows like to live. It's not some kind of life battery.
Life arose from the lord souls that came from the flame. If the flame goes out life will continue to exist.
>>322173143
Well to be fair he gave up his "god" power to rekindle the flame. So when you "beat a god" you're really fighting a heavily neutered version of him.
>>322176803
They don't have humanity, so how can they be human?
>>322169510
This is the way I view it. Why else would a human be chosen to take a lord's place as the dark lord? Unless the lore says otherwise somewhere, I dont see the humans and lords being related.
Giants are big and oafish. These include the giant blacksmith, Gough, those guys who throw boulders, etc.
Otherwise you have small regular humans, most of which have become undead, or maybe they all have and some just believe they're still human.
Those like Gwyn have ascended to Godhood through the power of souls. Presumably they were once human. This is substantiated through Logan's dialogue.
Then you've got golems and animated armors sprinkled in as well.
>>322176809
Sure, there was "life" before the flame - dragons and whatever random shit was there. I agree that the flame produced the Lord souls and I was just saying that the flame and therefore the Lord souls gave birth to a greater variety of life in the world.
>>322169262
Better question:
Why do Dark Souls dragons have 4 butterfly wings and tentacles instead of feet.
Also, what did the dragons do when they had an entire planet of grey wasted land with neither light or dark. What's the point of their existence?
>>322169962
Because people are retarded and think the Furtive Pygmy refers to anything but that one dude.
>>322170132
This is some Prometheus level stuff.
Fire = Desire, will, passion, soul.
When it dies out you turn hollow, aimlessly wandering around with nothing to do.
Gwyn got blessed with the Lords Soul, with it he started an uprising, created an kingdom. Then when he reached his peak he grew bored and tired. Nothing to do. The fire at Kiln starts to vain because it was he who lit it, but has no desire to do stuff anymore.
Are the Witch's daughters comparable to Gwynever and Gwyndolin, or are they more like the Witch herself? The daughters were there when she claimed the soul of life, so are they on the same level as she is?
>>322177140
They were all little hollow pygmies before they got their souls.
Why are Anor Londo people so big
>>322177124
Those questions are not answered and are kinda irrelevant to the plot.
Who cares if dragons have 4 wings and tentacle feet. You can call any winged-lizard thing a dragon.
>>322170132
>In truth, the race of hollowed proto-men from the opening aren't given a name. But since the 'Furtive' Pygmy doesn't look any different to the others I figure they were all pygmies.
What the fuck are you talking about? The Pygmy doesn't looks anything like the Hollows that find the first flame.
>>322177070
Souls are essentially just energy, so assuming you can utilize that energy outside of the body you can create things like golems and animated armor with the power of souls.
>>322177267
No, they were hollows. There's absolutely nothing in the game that calls hollows pygmies.
>>322170525
Doesn't fit him. Glad it wasn't included.
>>322176624
DS2 implies that this cycle happens all the time (per quotes of many NPCs) and that in each cycle, while everything might be different, greater souls are basically reborn. I guess every, those greater souls try to maintain the "fire" for as long as possible but they inevitably lose their memories, get subsumed by dark, go hollow, then I guess it ends and somehow the first flame rekindles and then blows up all over again, destroying everything that used to be there in the process and making new shit.
Could someone explain this "Gwyn and Witches" are giants nonsense to me? Giants are their own race, right? Gwyn and Witches are just humanoid beings that beat the dragons and gained incredibly powerful souls that made them godlike relative to anything that came after, right?
Also, why don't more people talk about the Aldia ending to DS2? And DS3 plot in general?
We know that Aldia tells the Bearer of the Curse that he has the cure for the limbo-world that they're all stuck in (alternating between fire and dark), which is likely preventing someone from ever rekindling the flame, right? So why is it that the giants are back? And why is the Giant Lord we see in the trailer the new Lord of Cinder?
Did we ever get a proper explanation for who or what the giants were back in DS2? We just know they're some foreign land that was invaded, and Vendrick stole something from them at the behest of Nashandra (who is just a fragment of Manus trying to spread more dark), which led to the giants invading Drangleic and fucking up things, right?
I don't want to be one of those shitters who does "hurr fan theories", but I mean, at this point, it's most likely that the new protagonist is either Aldia or the Bearer of the Curse, or both, who are trying to prevent the rekindling of the flame to ensure the world remains in darkness and stops alternating back and forth in some shitty limbo, right?
Or am I wrong about everything and there's some key detail I'm missing?
>>322177334
He looks identical. Though we only see the hollows as outlines, they have the same skinny, hollow shape as the pygmy.
It was probably even the same model used for the pygmy and the hollows.
>>322169262
Is Dark Souls lore more confusing than Bloodborne lore?
Are there Ayys in Dark Souls?
>>322177563
>new protagonist
Meant new antagonist
this is a good fucking thread
>>322177491
I'm OK with the idea of the four lord souls being reborn when the flame is rekindled or let to die, but why the fuck does Seathe's soul get reborn? That makes no sense. It's not even his soul, it's a part of Gwyn's, and the Four Kings' soul isn't reborn.
>>322175562
>he's a lorefag
Stop destroying the fanbase.
>>322177491
>>322177563
>DaS2 lore
>>322177829
I'm still playing the DLC and I haven't really started to delve into the rest of the lore yet. Shit's like dragging yourself through glass.
>>322177563
>Or am I wrong about everything and there's some key detail I'm missing?
I know you're thinking about it pretty hard, but the only take-away from DS2 is that the whole thing is a cycle and the flame tends to consistently produce similar Lord souls.
That's it. The other aspects of DS2 were so hamfistedly presented I don't even want to waste time making the mental gymnastics necessary to fill in the gaps of information with speculation. DS1 was clear and good in its simplicity, DS2 merely said that these things repeat themselves.
>>322177620
At least DaS gave lore, Bloodborne just says here have a dream, now start stumbling forward.
Were you really supposed to fight the witch but they ran out of time and so just inserted the retarded Bed of Chaos fight instead since "lol maek floor collapse and huge explosions" was probably easier to code?
>>322177620
I find Bloodborne a little more straight forward. The only thing that continues to bother me is the purpose of the hunts if the moon presence is the puppeteer.
>>322175802
You and me both. That's why im hopping that DasIII will deliver
How come there's no Heat and Cold souls?
I'd have loved to meet the lord of frost.
>>322177620
>Is Dark Souls lore more confusing than Bloodborne lore?
A bit, because there are a lot more gaps. Bloodborne is surprisingly straightforward once you know all the inspiration material.
>Are there Ayys in Dark Souls?
no
>>322178158
Elemental based bosses are boring
>>322178085
Bed of Chaos was always a boss, from the beginning. Originally it was a proper fight, you can find some prototype models and animations of it that shows it was mobile and crawled around the arena.
>>322178268
Do we have any info on why that was scrapped? For time I guess or it just didn't work design-wise, or perhaps it was too much like every other mobile boss and Miyazaki was bored of that?
>>322178025
Bloodborne is just a bunch of factions wildly misinterpreting the will of The Boss.
Except instead of misinterpreting, it's "fucking up" and instead of "the will of The Boss" it's "handling cosmic powers beyond their control or comprehension".
I imagine the world of Bloodborne was just a peaceful regular 1800s sort of place. Then someone fucking dug up Las Plagas and it all went to shit.
>>322177605
>He looks identical.
You're fucking blind.
>>322177563
"Giants" is the wrong way to put it since the lore already has giants, even in Demon's Souls (broken world stone that never got added for some reason). They were more like Titans from greek mythology and a bunch of them were huge, for whatever reason.
>>322178096
The great ones are sympathetic in spirit. Gehrman wanted hunts, so hunts he shall have.
>>322178398
Time. Izalith is the most obvious victim, but New Londo also seems to have been reduced in scale.
>>322178595
Vendrick is the one character I actually really liked in Dark Souls 2.
He was just a regular human who fought his way to the top, and was destroyed by the woman he loved, and continued to love until he finally went hollow.
>>322169262
Why have all the Souls/Bloodborne threads been so good on /v/ lately?
Also, are there any kind of comics or graphic novels expanding the Souls universe? I would pay so much for that shit.
>>322178673
Yeah but Gehrman doesn't even want to be in the dream anymore. What happened to that sympathy?
>>322178673
Some of the Great Ones are sympathetic.
Oedon is just a complete ass, but Ebrietas, Kos and Moon Presence are almost benevolent.
>>322178595
The problem here is that people spend too much time dwelling on the semantics and names given to the various creatures in the world. "Giants" are just things that are "bigger than people", whether or not they're actually big people or monstrous is irrelevant.
To the "people of varying sizes" in Dark Souls the "giants" are those thuggish things like the blacksmith. To the player, everyone's a fucking giant: Gwyn, his knights, and the blacksmith.
I think we've wasted a lot of time worrying about the connections between the giant-creatures in the world and what to call them. Remember, the whole time we're speaking the language of the world of Dark Souls not English and so to the people of the world there are "human" things and there are those motherfuckers that they call "giants".
>>322169262
Why are her hands so fucking BIG
>>322178872
Because gold face shitposters, and salty PC players got tired of ruining the threads with their console/PC wars.
Most of the original lovers of the Souls series accept Bloodborne as an equally great game.
>>322178096
The Moon Presence took pity on humanity as they were ravaged by the beast scourge and so created the hunters dream and watched over the hunters.
Hunters came to be in response to the beast scourge. They hunt beasts in an effort to stem the flow of the plague.
>>322178806
She fucked over the entire world pretty good too, don't forget. You know you married a real bitch when even a painting bearing her likeness curses anyone that goes near it.
>>322179012
Ciaran is player sized, though. And the two non-mutated daughters of chaos are player sized. Gwyndolin isn't all that big either, nor are the knights. The only ones that are really big are Ornstein, Smough and Gwynever. Though Gwynevere may not actually be that huge.
>>322178913
It's a monkeys paw situation,
>>322179249
Ornstein and Smough are illusions as well, thats why when one dies the other becomes gigantic.
>>322179118
I could believe that if the true ending wasn't to end the cycle of the hunt, and transcend the hunt to "lift humanity into its next childhood". It all sounds like we were doing the bidding of a great one who was taking advantage of humanity's drive to ascend.
>>322179110
We've reached the Golden Age of Souls threads where we can discuss all games that are parts of the series without shitposting, including Bloodborne.
I'm going to miss that when Dark Souls 3 comes out.
>>322179459
>Ornstein and Smough are illusions as well
Really?
>>322179525
Probably some sort of 2001 space gods orchestrating the whole thing.
>>322170525
There's a reason it was cut from the game
Wasn't size is related to power? Didn't From chose to make some characters like Ornstein that huge so you felt powerless before him and Biggie or something like that?
>>322178913
>>322179423
This and it's very easy to say they just don't quiet get humans.
>>322179459
If Ornstein and Smough were illusions you wouldn't get their souls. Ornstein was there to test the player, he wasn't an illusion.
>>322179118
Except the moon presence turns people into beasts with it's mere presence and Hunters existed well before the Beasts scourge,
>>322179629
Everything in Anor Londo is an illusion except for the blacksmith. It is highly likely that they were as well and would explain why one can absorb the power of the other and become fuckhuge.
>>322179249
This is potentially a just gameplay thing. Ciaran and the Daughters of Chaos are so brief in appearance that it would be too much work to give them unique models and animations and AI. Instead they could just give them wearable equipment and spells and have them use them.
>>322177934
>all DaS lore is interpereted by the die hard fans
>only casual shit lords don't give a fuck about the lore
So, which one are you? Are you really this casual?
>>322179670
This is literally the only reason. Characters are big so they look imposing.
It's One Piece rules.
>>322179670
I swear his neck gets longer every time I see him.
>>322179750
If they had already been long dead Gwyndolin could have used their souls to recreate their likeness, which would give reason as to why they're more powerful than the other illusions in Anor Londo.
Not to mention you get souls from all the other illusions in Anor Londo.
>>322179826
Ornstein and smough weren't illusions. They both had actual great souls and backstories from serving in the war efforts.
Why does Kalameet not have a soul when the Ancient Dragon and Sinh do?
>>322180213
Dark Souls 2 is non-canon
>>322179670
>>322179956
Oh shit. I just noticed something.
That dude is definitely one of those primordial serpents. Never trust anything he says.
>>322179459
>Ornstein and Smough are illusions
I bet you're going to try and convince me that the Ornstein in Dark Souls 2 was the real Ornstein.
>>322180213
Maybe true dragons don't have soulsDark Souls 2 is probably not going to be canon anymore
>>322180353
FEEBLE CURSED ONE
>>322180213
Sinh and Ancient Dragon aren't actual dragons.
Ancient Dragons is a jurassic park style clone of a giant, Sinh is just a drake.
>>322180213
He's a true dragon, the others went long enough with the flame around that they got souls.
>>322180323
Kalameet is in DS1. Not DS2.
>>322180213
There was something special about Kalameet and was only communicated through subtleties. Don't remember what it was atm.
>>322179670
No, the power related to size shit is from Dark Souls 2. Most likely bullshit.
>>322180101
Keep in mind that all the other knights at this point are dead, that Anor Londo is completely abandoned aside from Gwyndolin and the giant blacksmith, and that every single thing that you come across is an illusion created by Gwyndolin.
And you think that it would be more likely that Ornstein and Smough would be guarding nothing due to their duty for their Lord Gwyn? Did you not even pay attention to Smough's backstory? He was a butcher and a cannibal, there is no way that he would ever sit and wait in hopes that a meal would come to him.
It is far more likely that the Ornstein and Smough you face are nothing but illusions propagated by Gwyndolin than that they are the original Ornstein and Smough.
Them being illusions also explains their boss mechanic, no other explanation could even remotely make sense.
>>322169427
They're Giants like Norse or Japanese Mythology.
many of them would be human size or able to change their shape.
>>322180401
Nope, Ornstein had no place being in DaS2.
Doesn't change the fact that OnS are more likely to be illusions than not be illusions.
You faggots seem to forget that Gwyndolin is an immensely powerful sorcerer.
>>322180538
>Kalameet is in DS1. Not DS2.
Exactly.
>>322169262
They're Lords you idiot.
Gwyn, Nito, and the Witch are Lords, they originally had full Lord Souls and split them among their followers.
Gwyndolin, Velka, etc are Gods and have parts of Gwyn's soul.
The daughters and son of Chaos were witches and have parts of TWoI's soul.
The player, Oswald, the crestfallen warrior, etc are humans and have parts of the Dark soul.
Skeletons and Necromancers are undead and have parts of Nito's soul.
>>322180453
>>322180463
>>322180536
I know the Ancient Dragon you fight is a fake, but you go back in time to the War of Fire and pick up the soul of one.
>>322169962
Pygmies are the same as hollows.
>>322170163
Implying gwyn and pals weren't the chosen undead and got gud and killed the dragons this way
You will never play a souls game where you fight tons of different dragons as gwyn
>>322180753
He wasn't a butcher and a cannibal because that was his source of sustenance though. He was just a creep with a power fetish who did weird shit to his enemies and he actually lost all rights to gain military rank because of it and just stayed an executioner.
You're really reaching. There were several living officers who remained in Londo, ornstein and smough were two of them. They were not illusions. Nor was that personal guard who was guarding gwyndolin. There's nothing - no reason at all to think that you can get a great soul from an illusion that would also be able to become that illusion personal shit which is very much not an illusion, and can be used by the player.
>>322180753
While I agree that the Ornstein and Smough are likely illusions in DS1, I don't think it's really important to explain away their boss mechanic of "absorbing the other one". There's a lot of bizarre mechanics throughout the game. For instance, why are there more than 4 Kings? Why can Quelagg's spider puke lava? Why can Priscilla turn invisible? I don't think you should necessarily use the "absorbing the other" ability as evidence that OnS are illusions (once again, I do think they are illusions though).
>>322180401
What was up with that Ornstein in DaS2 anyways? Why was he even there? Was Heide's Tower of Flame basically New Anor Londo?
I remember reading some theory that Heide's Tower was basically some "across the sea" settlement in the name of Anor Londo, but I find it unlikely that the entire location DaS2 takes place in isn't just on top of Lordran.
>>322180918
There was also something off about Kalameet though. He wasn't a true dragon and the nigger had 3 eyes.
>>322169510
finally.
7 replies until someone said the obvious.
>>322175546
It means that everyone who doesn't have a part of the Dark Soul will hollow, because their souls will fade to nothing.
>>322181126
The stone dragons that existed at that time were not technically living creatures that had souls. They were basically earth elementals.
Dark Souls 2's lore is completely irrelevant because those who wrote it didn't know Dark Souls 1's lore.
>>322181126
You mean in the Dukes Freja memory? Yeah theres the soul from the dead dragon.
Maybe Kalameet is the fake, or that dragon in the memory is fake.
Or, Dark Souls 2 did whatever the fuck it wanted with lore and made dragons have souls
>>322181481
he only had one, anon
>>322179638
Well, the Moon Presence might be a transcended Human.
Maybe all Old Ones are, but because they can't reproduce, go through this insane ceremony to try and produce more.
>>322181375
All the silver knights in Anor Londo who drop gear are illusions.
You assume that Gwyndolin isn't using OnS's souls to power their specific illusion, which is why you would get their souls after defeating the illusion.
You also seem to assume that illusion means its not tangible. That is not what illusion means. Illusion means that you are not perceiving what is actually there, you are perceiving something very different. Which is very much what OnS could very well be.
>>322180213
Because the people who made DS2 probably never even played 1.
>>322181645
No, he had 3 eyes, dammit. You could see them. Two normal ones and one big parietal one.
But there was something key and very subtle but I don't remember what it was.
>>322179835
*casul
Yep
>>322177001
I think Manus is THE pygmy. When you kill him you can see the pygmy grave from which he arose in the spot where he died.
>>322176247
And yet he is still one of only more mentally stable creatures left, he was raised as a woman but does not act like one at least and he is not crazy like every other lord left alive since hebeen doing some heavy lifting maitaining the illusion of his sister who went to another continent in search of a fire cock
>>322175228
they don't have to "show up" to build the lore around their origins and characters, it can be done indirectly
>>322181549
Actually, I think it is relevant because it sort of shows what happens in the world.
They're echos of each other, not completely the same worlds, each has repeating imagery, and some things survive, but the cycles of Light and Dark are one of repetition.
>>322182025
That's not the pygmy's grave(I don't even know where you're getting that from), it's what held him there as a prisoner. The Chasm of the Abyss was originally a prison where he was locked up deep inside, the awoke him and drove him mad when a serpent told them to.
>>322177829
It might have been precisely because of the lord soul and his insane experiments, it might have bonded to his own primal soul and made it so he too can be reborn
>>322182225
they awoke him and drove him mad*
Talking about the citizens of Oolicle in case that wasn't clear.
>>322169510
Didn't the gaping dragon start off as a drake that was just kinda fucked up then tuned into gaping dragon?
Otherwise I could accept this till DS3 stirs things up.
>>322177829
>>322177491
>>322177961
It's been confirmed by Miyazaki. The DkS3 cinematic trailer shows the Lords of Cinder being reborn and there's many landscapes filled with ash and fog (hint that it takes place in a new Age of Ancients after the cycle repeats itself). He also said that the player's objective is to hunt out the Lords of Cinder.
>>322182025
I think that makes sense. I guess not too many people would know this, but the name itself suggests it pretty blatantly. "Manus" in real life eastern theology was the progenitor of mankind.
>>322182018Would you?[spoiler/]
>>322182495
But there was evidence of a cycle in DS1 anyway, and not in the same way as 2. Just like Demon's and BB, the cycle stuff is just something he likes.
Unless you have an actual quote from him about DS2 lore, I'll just wait and hope 3 overrides it.
>>322182495
This shit better have good explanation and some time travelling, I'm not going to kill those fuckers for no reason like in dark souls 2 againand it better import and have my dark souls character as a lord of cinder
>trying to explain Souls lore
they left is purposefully ambigiuous because even FromSoft doesn't know what they're talking about
>>322182445
The gaping dragon was a living descendant of the stone dragons. It had an insatiable hunger in order to stay alive which made it evolve into what it is.
>>322182445
Gaping Dragon was like Kalameet, but it went insane over it's hunger and mutated.
>>322177961
DaS2's lore is canon whether you like it or not since Miyazaki is running with it in DaS3.
>>322182728
>But there was evidence of a cycle in DS1 anyway
No? DaS1 was the 'first' cycle.
Why is the Age of Dark bad again? I want humanity to rule the world not some giant fucks.
>>322177143
When the flames die, all lords return back at what they are: hollows.
Humans don't because the Dark Soul is not based on Fire. However, humans go hollow when they lose their humanity (they die). Losing Humanity is not related to the dying of the fire.
Also, Gywn didn't grow bored. He was afraid of the fire dying. He set to light the First Flame with his soul because maybe, maybe that stupid Serpent told him so.
>>322182754
Why did you click on this thread if you don't want to discuss it? The point of it being ambiguous isn't so that there is no story, it's so that you can make up stuff to fill in the gaps and discuss it with other people. If you don't find it fun, just don't do it.
>>322182774
>>322182803
Thanks. Gaping Dragon is one of my favorite designs in DS1
>>322182923
was it?
>>322182939
The "humanity" that would rule are just hollows dumbo, true humans is just what there was before the fire
Are Dark and The Abyss two separate things or are they facets of each other?
>>322182923
How could that be possible if there were already lord souls to be pulled from the first flame?
Were the primordial serpents around before the first flame, or did they arise from the Dark?
>>322182823
Doesn't matter though since Dark Souls 2 is just a cycle. There could be the end of Dark Souls, and there could be the endless cycle shit. Both of those could end with Dark Souls 3. Dark Souls 2 is basically a shitty story in between the two games that has no significance.
>>322169510
>nito
my sides
>>322182939Its not.The world of Dark Souls never really has evil or bad. It may have some fucked up assholes like seath but its mostly just is.
>>322183096
They seem to be german so I'm assuming they're fans of the dark.
>>322169510
It's a shame we had to kill Nito. He was doing literally nothing to anyone.
>>322183150
I seriously hope you aren't expecting Miyazaki to end the cycle OR give you any answers in Dark Souls 3.
>>322173603
I think the Dark Soul doesn't come from the Fire. I think maybe the Dark Soul was always present, but with the Fire the Dark Soul was spotted... Like when you turn on the light and find there was something there you didn't see ever because it was black.
>>322182923
Says who? Any iteration of a cycle can look like the first one, that's what a cycle is.
It's what I think anyway, it fits with the idea of NG+ and the online systems of the game perfectly as well. When Solaire talks about time being distorted when giving you the soapstone, I think that he means that you are literally summoning undead from different iterations of the cycle through time.
>>322182939
Dark isn't the bad guy. Gwyn feared the dark because he believed if men gained too much power they would usurp the lords.
>>322183290
This. Everything about Nito makes me not want to kill him.
TotG is a fucking pain in the asshole to navigate, annoying as shit enemies, then a boss that isn't even a bad dude he just wants to chill. Fuck.
>>322183150
Not that guy you're replying to but if Miyazaki is going with the lords of cinder, that's pretty huge and based heavily from something from DS2 in a way that legitimizes the entire game.
>>322183292
Why not? They gave us good answers in Dark Souls and BB.
>>322183371
And he was right, soon the flames will fade, and only Dark will remain.
He really didn't do anything 'wrong,' he just didn't want to fade away into nothingness. Pretty reasonable when you think about it.
>>322183072
The Abyss is a place, specifically the place where the Dark is manifested.
Gwyn 'n' co. are normal-sized humans.
You are the pygmy human
>>322183491
He was doing the right thing, for his people, why should a king care about everyone else that is not under his rule? While it is a pretty shitty deal for us humans for his own people it was a good thing
>>322183465
Because he doesn't like giving answers. Besides, isn't Dark Souls III set like 2000 years in the future or something? How is he going to have characters referring to events that long in the past while not giving any answers about Dark Souls 2 shit?
>>322182965
>if someone is eating shit, you shouldn't tell them they're eating shit
>>322183415
But the beautiful thing is: that means you can just ignore DS2 because its events were meaningless.
>>322183560
>>322183698
Then feel free to. No one has to play DS1 to play DS2 either. It just makes understanding the lore that much more satisfying.
>>322183072
The Abyss is just a physical representation of the Dark. Dark is kind of light Light, in that it's not some goo or magic rocks you can hold in your hand.
I couldn't tell you anything about the actual geography of the Abyss. It could be an alternate plane, or it could just refer to various pockets of concentrated Dark.
