Why do people refer to games like Ace Attorney, Danganronpa, and Zero Escape as "visual novels" instead of what they are: point-and-click adventure games?
"Visual novel" sounds more intellectual and sophisticated than "adventure game".
I've never seen anyone refer to them as visual novels.
>>321774102
>seen
Keyword. Seen. What about hearing it?
>>321773670
Then why are they listed in vndb ?
>>321774248
Nope.
>>321774071
You're looking at it from the wrong direction; people who call them visual novels are discrediting them as games, not giving them *more* credit.
Anyway, I don't know about those other 2, but AA is more of a visual novel because no matter what, the outcome is going to be the exact same. All the player is is a catalyst.
Something like Maniac Mansion is totally different in that regard. He/she has more agency over what happens in the game.
Because they are Japanese and point-and-click is used more for western games now for whatever reason.
They are just interactive narrative, more time is spent reading than in "gameplay" so it qualifies as a visual novel.
It isn't YOU battling in court, it's Phoenix. You also have very little options besides the right and wrong answer.
>>321774102
Only retards in visual novel threads do. They don't know any better, they read visual novels after all.
I think it's rather the games focus a lot more on story than point and clicks do. Since the majority of those games are reading text, I think people just think they fit more into the VN genre mainly. In the end though, it's not like being one genre excludes a game from another.
>>321774439
>All the player is is a catalyst.
>>321774258
Because they're popular by VN standards and are usually the first titles Westerners think of when they see the term "visual novel." But most Western otaku are clueless.
There was a good discussion about this at the Adventure Gamers forum:
>By now, I have learned to accept that the West uses the word “visual novel” (or “sound novel”/“novel game”) differently from Japan. It has almost turned into a term that is used for all Japanese adventures. From ‘real’ novel games like Kamaitachi no Yoru (Banshee’s Last Cry) and 999 (hybrid), to more traditional adventure games like Hotel Dusk, Ace Attorney and Danganronpa, which are never called “visual novels” in Japan. Everyone is calling practically everything from Japan a “visual novel” nowadays.
>But what I wonder is, do people here perceive a difference between “real” visual novel games and games like Ace Attorney or Jake Hunter? Because I never understood why people are using the term “visual novel” for those Japanese adventure games that have their roots in the point & click adventure and have nothing to do with a novel…
>In comparison, games like Ace Attorney and Danganronpa are based on more traditional adventure games. Console gaming is more prevalent in Japan, and the interface of point & click adventures was often streamlined for use with controller (as opposed to a mouse or keyboard). Jake Hunter for example is a famous traditional Famicom adventure, complete with all the normal commands like “talk”, “examine” and “use”. These style of games are referred to as “command-style adventures” in Japan. Here for example the commands are on the left, and you use them like you’d do in Maniac Mansion. Choose an action, choose the object of that action (if available).
>Games like Ace Attorney and Danganronpa are also based on the command-style adventure and thus never called “novel games” in Japan.
http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/viewthread/5008/
>>321774717
see
>>321774675
You're only answering questions that serve to tell a story. The only way to lose is to get those questions wrong, essentially.
Aside from the fact that there are HUGE portions of the game in which you're 'playing' but aren't really doing anything but gathering evidence/answers to questions that will be asked. Compared to a game like TWD or King's Quest and it's night and day.
And this is coming from an AA fan
Why is that skelly so cute.
Point and Click games generally don't have nearly as much fucking dialog and allow you far more freedom of movement. Also:
>Point and Click games
>Not on PC
>>321775143
Well then according to that definition TWD is a visual novel.
>>321775229
I want to fuck that skelly
>>321774689
Point-and-click adventures are narrative-heavy and involve lots of text reading almost by definition. Have you ever played games like The Longest Journey?
>>321773670
Ace Attorney is basically a visual novel. About half the game is spent in a courtroom reading text and picking responses. The other half is indeed an adventure game, pixel hunting and all
>>321775143
>The only way to lose is to get those questions wrong, essentially.
That's called a "fail state", my friend, a staple of many games
It's the same fucktards that group shit like Rance, Kamidori, YU-NO and Utawarerumono as VNs.
>>321775267
pretty much. ace attorney and twd are more like interactive stories
Japanese have no real different words between point-and-click and visual novels, so people just refer to them as "visual novels" when they're Japanese
it's the same thing
>>321775267
>>321775509
In AA there is only one instance in which a "fail state" can occur. In TWD there are many. And Maniac Mansion is a totally different beast, but even you can admit that it's much closer to TWD than AA.
If both TWD and AA are visual novels, then what would you call a point and click adventure?
>>321775132
>999 (hybrid)
how does this make any sense with the rest of the post? there's fairly constant gameplay
>>321776083
But that's in specific parts, VLR even refers to them as Novel sections and Escape sections.
>>321775980
>And Maniac Mansion is a totally different beast, but even you can admit that it's much closer to TWD than AA.
What? Unless I'm reading this wrong and TWD does not stand for The Walking Dead, this is completely wrong.
>>321775390
>Ace Attorney
>point-and-click adventure game
There's a lot of pointing, but no clicking
>>321776253
I guess so. Wouldn't it be a puzzle game in the first place, then? The "novel" parts are only its way of telling the story.
>>321776362
by that definition you can't have point-n-clicks on consoles
>>321776439
Well 999 is like 60% novel 40% puzzle, and VLR is like 75/25 so I don't think I'd like to call it a puzzle game.
>>321776554
Wait, why not? That's like not calling any of the MGS games stealth games because the majority of the time is in talking.
>>321776362
As was pointed out above, the interface of point & click adventures was often streamlined in Japan for use with controller (as opposed to a mouse or keyboard) since console gaming was more prevalent there. If games like Danganronpa or Zero Escape were ever ported to PC (rather than iOS), the similarities would become even more obvious.
>>321776362
The fuck are you talking about? You have to point and click to pick up stuff in investigation scenes
....or is that a pun? Because if it is, then good work, anon
>>321776726
he's talking about this kind of pointing
>>321776649
>hat's like not calling any of the MGS games stealth games because the majority of the time is in talking.
Have you played them? Or are you spouting le epic "movie games" meme?
point and click adventure games usually involve some puzzle solving whereas visual novels you just keep trying each path to unlock pretty pictures.
>>321776816
Of course I have. Did you know that, if you cut out all non-interactive bits from MGS1, you only have a 2 hour game left? That doesn't suddenly make it a movie, shit isn't judged by proportionality.
>>321776795
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Made me chuckle
>>321776530
I suppose the investigation part is sort of best described as a point-and-click adventure, the courtroom is definitely more of a visual novel than a point-and-click.
How about calling it a point-and-click visual novel?
Simply calling it a point-and-click is like calling GTA a driving game, or calling Roller Coaster Tycoon an RTS. Sure it's correct, but it's misleading
>>321777024
Back when we had a general we called them Adventure VNs but that name makes no sense really.
>>321773670
Because there's no mouse to point and click.
>>321777024
The courtroom isn't a visual novel either, you're almost constantly doing gameplay. Just because the interface goes from environments to statements doesn't mean you're not using items on specific things and all that, point-n-click staples.
>>321777024
But pretty much all point-and-click adventures (Grim Fandango, The Longest Journey, Broken Sword, Gabriel Knight, Sanitarium, I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream, the various Telltale games) have lots of non-interactive sections which just serve to advance the narrative, either through text or voice acting.
>>321773670
Because they are a hybrid between VN and "x" genre.
>>321777342
Ace Attorney even have the same basic format as Visual Novels. It's all portraits of characters interacting with each other, and you move between screens to talk to different characters and trigger different events.
Visually it's more a visual novel than a point and click, gameplay wise it's about half of the game the other being point and click.
I think of it more as a visual novel with point-and-click elements.
>>321775602
But those are VNs. You're as bad as the weirdos who scream that VNs aren't video games. Where is it written that a VN can't have some gameplay?
>>321775312
I tend to think of the old lucas arts games as point and clicks where they were more focused on the puzzles rather than narrative. While they do exist, the majority of those games were trying to find object a to put into object b. I haven't had the time to delve into more modern ones other than some of the telltale adventure games.
>>321778328
Rance especially is pretty obviously a strategy game
Not really sure why Yu-No wouldn't be a visual novel though, unless I'm missing something - maybe the point is that those are all completely different games?
>>321778824
Suggesting that Rance is in the same category as Civ or EU is silly. Rance has some simple gameplay, but that sure as shit isn't the core appeal or even mode of play.
>>321778195
>It's all portraits of characters interacting with each other, and you move between screens to talk to different characters and trigger different events.
Soo...how is it that different from point-and-clicks like Broken Sword? I think one of the problems is that the (largely) otaku audience for VNs hasn't played many of the classic adventure games, so they don't realize the influences and similarities.
>>321779090
You're suggesting that Civ and EU are remotely similar in gameplay, then, which is bullshit as well. Strategy is a huge-ass genre, which Sengoku Rance pretty simply fits into.
>>321775132
The japs don't use the term visual novel at all, they call them games as well. Like galge for example. Also Grim Fandango isn't a point and click game.
>>321779415
How are they not?
>>321779631
Gee, maybe because one is turn based while the other is real time, for starters?
>>321779504
>In Japanese terminology, a distinction is often made between visual novels proper (abbreviated NVL), which consist predominantly of narration and have very few interactive elements, and adventure games (abbreviated AVG or ADV), which may incorporate problem-solving and other types of gameplay. This distinction is normally lost outside Japan, where both NVLs and ADVs are commonly referred to as "visual novels" by international fans.
>Grim Fandango isn't a point and click game
You can use the point-and-click interface in the re-release, and aside from that it contains all the hallmarks of the adventure game genre.
>>321779631
What? How are they, at all? One is a turnbased 4x game, the other is a real time grand strategy? Are you going to suggest Starcraft is remotely similar to either of those two, too? It's undeniably a strategy game.
>>321778824
YU-NO, for a great potion of the game, is a fairly standart PC-98 Point-n-Click adventure, with the Prologue and Epilogue being the only parts where you aren't directly involved in the game.
>>321779631
One is a 4X and the other is a Grand Strat, how ARE they similar bar falling into the huge umbrella term of 'Strategy'.
>>321774439
I won't bother replying to everything, but this notion is completely retarded. If you go by that logic literally every single game is "not a game" because there's an clear ending and all you do is move there and being "the catalist".
VN
>Just get the answer right :^)
Action game?
>just don't die :^)
Adventure
>just follow the right path :^)
The only actual "games" would be fighting ones.
AA has investigations, logic, a lot of things you need to do to beat the game. So does Zero escape and danganronpa and sengoku rance, etc. The only instance you'd be right would be about those japanese novels where all you do is click "proceed" and read, like katawa shoujo, and even then, you can lose if you chose the wrong choices or get a bad ending or get in the wrong route.
