Big picture here.
Are Synths people? Should they have the same human rights and legal protections as natural born humans?
Asking this with an open mind.
>>321733720
No, fuck off. robots are not people. They are things. Stay off my board you race traitor. Stop pushing your toaster fucking agenda.
Depends entirely of the philosophy of the game, and how the synths are made in-universe. I'd say a species like the Geth would most definitely deserve full-sentient rights, but what other synths really do? Let's throw in film here since I really fucking liked the movie, but I think Ava from Ex Machina would likely be deserving of human rights and protections, but I'm not sure about Hal, for example. We saw lots of intelligence but we never got to see a full extent of its capabilities for a lot of human attributes.
>>321733720
>Are Synths people? Should they have the same human rights and legal protections as natural born humans?
Yes and Yes.
is Vision a person?
i think the question should be, does it matter if something is a person or not as long as it is sentient and intelligent?
>>321733720
>>321734253
From the general sometime ago:
-----------------
>experiment
>loss is acceptable because Science!
>redefine humanity
>Basically skynet
>Synths are the SS's DNA containers
>They have strong personalities like the SS
>loss of human life is acceptable because we have synths
>but synths are disposable because we made them, let's lowarm grab all of them and push them back to flipping institute burgers, the subhuman trash they are
> Please get them back, they are your children too, we are the best hope for humanity!
> Subhuman shit, get recalled and wiped
The institute is a walking talking superiority complexion, with arrogance and plain stupidity mixed between.
How about none of the factions?
-----
>being this edgy for the sake of it
Yeah, take that edgehat off and go back to >>>/lebbit/, or >>>/trash/.
It's not about being unacceptable. Why would i want slavery in a world that got a clean slate restart? I don't need it.
Gen1 synths are not self aware, or have high cognitive capabilities, use THOSE for slave labor. Others should be free.
---------
>implying you can do that with being the "director".
>Most of the scientists shat on father for nominating you
>Dissenting groups would lock everyone in and threat with poison
>Superiority complex
Yeah, how about no. Not in a million years could you fix a group of idiotic Science! scientist faggots.
Also, the writing doesn't allow that, so... yeah.
>To fix the institute, you have to break everything else first, as in murder everyone else
> Can't go pacifist
> Can't broker peace
> Can't broker middle ground
> Can't be neutral
> Must exterminate everything and then we can pretend it's your choice that matters, or that you can "fix" what wasn't "broken" technically.
Nope.
If there was an actual option to peace it out, then sure. But in this way? Fuck no. Fuck off insticucks.
Gen2/3're people. 1're slaves - Nobody trying to free them. Not all synths are people, but some are.
>>321733720
Probably, yes. I mean what are people anyway, if not robots? Biological robots with tubes made of tissue instead of plastic, bones instead of metal frame? A brain that's wired to respond to stimuli but is able to fool itself into thinking it has free will, much like any central processor a synth might have?
>>321734574
Vision got his synthetic dick wet
That qualifies him for personhood
>>321733720
Replace synths with niggers and you have your answerno
>>321734836
"The ability to get ones dick wet is what qualifies them for personhood." - Anon
Aight, sounds good to me.
>>321734973
But synths work
>>321735069
>>321734836
Guess I'm not a person.
Define "people"
>>321735179
One day anon, one day.
>>321735402
"Not robots"
They're machines designed to appear as human as possible.
They're no more people than toasters are.
It's just that SJW retards think with their feelings instead of logic.
>>321735587
So rocks are people?
sentience is ridiculously low barrier. nearly all complex life is sentient. sapience isn't even much better, with nearly all sentient life exhibiting some degree of sapience. even the most exacting tests/definitions, CROWS FUCK IT UP. making sapience our milestone would almost work but for FUCKING BILLIONS OF CROWS.
>>321735659
Yes
>human rights and legal protections
In Fallout?
You're becoming hysterical.
>>321735706
- Capable of verbal communication
- Able to use tools via something
- Sapience
- Sentience
- Complex decision making
>>321735706
Also, crows might be people. We just don't know how to communicate. And of course, they are smaller and of a different origin than humans. Let's eat them.
>>321735706
I would gladly accept Crows as our sapient kin. Crows are awesome.
Can someone please explain why The Institute are even making Synths? What's the fucking point? What are they trying to achieve by making robots think they're human? That can literally only end in disaster, how have they not realized that it's probably a bad idea when a bunch of SJW's are capable of reprogramming them so easily?
I seriously don't understand what The Institute is supposed to be about. They spout the same shit about saving mankind like Mr House but have absolutely no way to even remotely back it up, instead killing and replacing wastelanders while doing FEV experiments and making more fucking super mutants because that's what the series needs
>>321734253
>>321735628
I don't want Terminator/skynet/i, robot either.
But consider this. The human body is an extremely complex biological machine, engineered over several millennia by natural selection and mutations (aka evolution).
So is it that they are not sentient, or that they are made of metal/plastic/synthetic materials? What really separates us from them? (I am talking Gen 3 Synths).
No, a Synth is not a person.
Free will determines humanity, we may be created by sexual reproduction and we my be "programmed" by our environmental stimuli, but regardless of all that, all humans still retain an ability to choose. Synths maintain a life that has been programmed within them, they cannot escape even if they want to, because that is the only path that they can follow. A human may live a life he doe not like, and dream of escape, but there is always a possibility that he can. It is fear that keeps a human from choice, not programming,
>>321735881
Crows are little shits and too smart for their own good
>>321736053
The original synths (aka the skellington looking ones) were simply intended to be workforce for the Institute. I guess that they were simply super autistic about perfecting their janitor bots.
Institute should have had more advanced robots in general at their disposal imo.
But anon free will is an illusion.
We are meat robots and they are metal robots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjuQRCG_sUw
/thread
>>321736262
What a cheeky cunt. Crows are awesome.
>>321736053
>FEV experiments
I really don't understand bethesda, and I DEFENDED the super mutants in 3.
>DC has supermutants!
Okay, that's not bad? Most of the Master's armies went east anyway, they'd reach the coast eventually.
>New FEV strain made new super mutants
Okay fine, kind of farfetched and ignoring some lore details but whatever, new nest of supermutants guarantees the east has the iconic enemy.
>FO4 has super mutants!
As expected, and it also makes sense! In FO3, Super Mutants were running out of FEV, it makes sense they'd be expanding looking for more! And their dialog says exactly that, they're looking for FEV!
>The institute made them from their own secret stash of FEV, they're a completely new batch lol
Man, fuck you Bethesda.
Just look at them, having fun in snow
That's people stuff you bastards!
>>321736457
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiRjywbypLA
>>321736170
What if the free will and fear are programmed into the synth?
They will not know the difference and will be acting exactly like any real persona
What if any alien race suddenly told us that we were just an experiment and that all our feelings and the entire evolution process was pre-programmed?
Would that invalidate us as "people"?
Would the knowing that free will and the fact that the synth is programmed make him less "people" than us in this case?
They wouldn't know any better, nor would the people that didn't create/program them
>>321736170
>>321736757
Free will is an illusion. You think the way you do because your brain is wired the way you do, and every thought and decision your brain is capable of making is the result of it's construction and composition determining how it responds to stimuli.
>>321736635
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WupH8oyrAo
>>321736870
God, I love these little bastards.
>>321736870
>>321737000
Freedombird and stupid fucking penguin 0, Crows 2.
>>321736438
Nope they're meat too
>>321736906
So by that logic synths are people, correct?
>>321737210
More like people are machines, but yes.
>>321736870
Fucking niggers why can't they get their own shit.
>>321736165
>not sentient
unpredictable, self-aware free will is sentience anon
gen 3 can't be predicted / controlled unless conditioned and specially programmed the way coursers are
Sure, why not.
If enough tin cans on a string can be considered conscious, then synths can be considered people too.
>>321737270
Expanding on that point, now that we agree morality is a fabrication and not something innate to the universe, slavery is A-ok. So we're pro synth-enslavement
>>321737438
Go to bed, Milton Library Assistant.
>>321737471
Not necessarily, even if it is a fabrication doesn't mean it is a worthless one.
>>321737130
the murica birb clearly just doesnt give a shit though
it could turn around and get serious, but it flies away
>>321733720
Gen 1 and 2 is a no.
Gen 3 is debatable, since they're bio engineered, and are indistinguishable from a normal human.
Take a look at diamonds, that are grown in tubes. Are they any less diamond, because they were created in a lab? No. There is no difference.
It gets down to what you define as a human.
>>321733720
It's okay if they're qt's
>>321733720
no, no, no, no, and no.
synths, by nature, are not people. might they become top of the food chain? possibly. but that doesn't make them people.
>>321737438
Can we consider a personification of doubt to be a person you little shit?
>>321737603
So it is cowardly and/or lazy too then.
>>321737625
This was the best scifi movie since Moon and District 9. There haven't been many good ones recently but the ones that have been good are REALLY good.
>>321737743
>lazy
sounds like merica
>>321737743
It could kill the fuckfuck bird and waste calories only to kill the nasty tasting fucker, or let it fuck around because of indifference. If it was near its nest or mate that crow would be shredded.
>>321737843
It was great. I love how Oscar Isaac and Domhall Gleeson are again in a movie together (Star Wars)
Some people say this doesn't count because it's just a more involved version of a task the crow has already been put through, so it knows more or less what to do as soon as it starts
Still, I'd like to see a chicken do it
>>321737542
Fine be that way. But really, throughout history, ethics and morals have only applied to those we group ourselves with. Morality prevents us from murdering our countrymen, but not people from the country we are at war with. Or it prevents us from murdering humans, but not animals. While there are plenty of cases where this isn't true, in most scenarios it seems that the rules of society are basically selfishly imposed to ensure one's own safety. I would rather live in a society in which murder is illegal because I do not want to be murdered. Society formed and humans evolved to work together because it gave us an advantage over other animals. Synths are another animal, we don't have to extend our societal rules to them as well. We can rule them like we rule the brahmin, even as we treat other humans ethically.
>>321737945
Those two are some of my favorite current actors. Domhnall was fucking scary as Hux, he was cast so against type but it worked so well. Have you seen Frank? He's amazing in that too, along with Fassbender. Frankly those three are probably my favorites at the moment.
>>321737342
Coursers aren't programmed. They're picked from the G3 population that display desirable traits for a courser.
>>321738029
>Synths are another animal, we don't have to extend our societal rules to them as well. We can rule them like we rule the brahmin, even as we treat other humans ethically.
Synths are as much people as people are, however people enslave people easily enough.
Synth slavery has all the moral issues people slavery does, and should be tolerated as much or as little as people slavery is.
>>321737843
The advertising firm that billed this movie as a sex-charged action thriller needs to have every one of it's members dragged out and shot. The advertising was completely unrepresentative of the actual product.
I'm glad I watched it ironically, because it's still one of my favorite movies.
>>321738146
they talk completely different from the other G3s and are robot-like in their mannerisms. something special is being done there.
>>321737843
Was moon really that good? I downloaded it on a whim and haven't been assed to watch it.
>>321738146
This is why I don't understand the railroad being so afraid of coursers. They're like the special forces or something, they're highly trained and well equipped but they're just normal synths physically. They aren't like skin-covered sentrybots or anything. A few railroad heavies should be able to take on a courser, but they all run away like little bitch-boys. Glory is a synth, so she should be physically on-par with a courser, as well as trained and equipped by the railroad. Makes no sense senpai
I don't think you people realize how dangerous artificial intelligence is. they would literally fucking eliminate us if "gen 3s" became a reality, because they are not people, they are machines programmed to destroy.
>>321737625
ex machina got it right. robots can't feel. you are just a tool to them, expendable and ready to be exploited.
people, on the other hand, are genetically motivated to protect human DNA, even if it means self sacrifice.
cue the smart ass who says "what if we program an AI robust enough to feel like a human does?"
we haven't, and we may not ever - probably not for 20-50 years at least, so no, synths/robots are not people. not in this decade, and not in the next one.
>>321738328
It's one of the best scifi movies of the last two decades, watch it as soon as you can. It's fucking great.
>>321738360
Teleportation, but that's not tooooo big of a fear. But, zap in a few coursers and skeles while railroad pants are down and its over.
>>321738282
No arguing there's something fucky with them, but it's specifically stated that they are selected.
>>321738387
I don't follow your argument at all, how a synth may treat people depends entirely on what it's programmed to do and what it's primary objectives are, just like people.
A murderer is still a person. A soldier is still a person.
>>321735628
That's Gen2
Gen3 are 3d printed superhumans with a tiny bit of cyberware.
Oh I completely agree, I'm just saying that something "having all the moral issues of slavery" means relatively little when you consider what morals are. If it benefits the human race to enslave synths, then that serves the same purpose as any moral system (benefiting the human race)
>>321735179
dude don't make me cry
>>321734253
Synths like Danse aren't mechanical in any way
I am dumb
this >>321738658 is meant as a reply for this >>321737542
What about Binary Domain?
The robots there could actually breed with humans.
I still don't know if that's a bad thing or a good thing.
>>321738886
Means hot waifus anon
>>321736170
>they cannot escape even if they want to
But they can, and do all the time.
>>321738658
>If it benefits the human race to enslave synths, then that serves the same purpose as any moral system (benefiting the human race)
And once it benefitted a certain human race to enslave another part or parts of the human race. Moral relativism is fine and all, but take it too far and it's just pure edge. We don't enslave people anymore because we are capable of feeling sympathy even if it's not the most advantageous decision for our immediate social group / civilization. Synths, being people, are subject to the same kind of sympathy. Is enslaving them advantageous? Sure, but so is enslaving human people.
>>321738886
>Robots don't know they're robots
>Terrified when they find out
>This makes them evil
Binary domain was so fucking dumb.
>>321738565
you just answered the question - they aren't people. just following instructions.
I was giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming a somewhat robust AI, but whatever, I guess you had more simpler goals than that. synths are nothing more than a toaster then.
>>321739051
>just following instructions.
So are we, though. You just fool yourself into thinking you aren't.
>>321736170
>Synths can't escape
The railroad isn't breaking into the Institute and stealing synths, they're running away on their own.
>>321739108
how about you quit the existential bullshit because it isn't fooling anyone
>>321739132
>running away
Ehhh that chuckelfuck dude is helping them escape.
Which if teleporting is monitored cuz "muh bad reactor" How has the institute not noticed?
>>321739108
Anon, just admit you shot your argument in the foot.
>>321739283
They've been running away since FO3, you meet the synth at Rivet City who used to hunt them down
>>321739193
There's nothing existential about it. Our brains may be complex, but at the end of the day they're organs for processing stimuli and instructing the body to react in a beneficial manner, and these instructions are such because of how your brain is wired, from the start. A small chemical imbalance or a growth can completely fuck up the instructions.
I mean, what are we, deep down? We're chemistry and physics. Your brain is made of atoms. You think you can "decide" for atoms to behave differently? For chemical reactions to result differently?
>>321739283
>Ehhh
The point is at no point are the G3's programed to want to run away from the Institute. They decide they want out and find a way of accomplishing it.
As for teleporting, blame bethesda for not being able to write worth a damn.
>>321739385
>Implying dude wasnt trained by his predecessor
>>321734589
I dunno man, my character was pretty charismatic. I got scientists to stand down, won over the favor of a multitude of others+ won over the favor of the remaining ones by doing quests for them.
Also my character is immortal due to ayy lmaos
You never make rapid changes, you do it slowly, get them used to the changes and keep pushing your agendas. Over time you can achieve prettty much any outcome you want.
>>321739026
I don't see how one can take moral relativism "too far". Seems like a pretty on or off, black and white sort of thing. I want to live in a cushy underground Institute apartment and rape hot synth sex slaves on the daily while chugging food supplement 77. I'm not concerned with whether that's amoral. I just want to make sure the civilization I associate myself with has a well defined moral system which ensures I myself will not be murdered, stolen from, or raped, and draws an arbitrary line in the sand which allows me to profit from synths and use them as sexual objects against their will. Ya feel me?
>>321735179
It is ok anon I will become your ability to get your dick wet.
>>321738019
You really like crows huh?
>>321739458
No, the universe decides what they do through quantum physics
And I am the universe
>>321739590
>I want to live in a cushy underground Institute apartment and rape hot synth sex slaves on the daily while chugging food supplement 77. I'm not concerned with whether that's amoral.
Why bother with synths, then? Since you are completely amoral you can do it with people just fine. Because humanity isn't one people, one voice. Plenty of people out there are murdering and raping and will do it to you given the chance.
>>321739734
Correct. And so is a pebble rolling down a hill.
>>321739646
>not liking crows
>>321739840
Crows are cool as shit. Plus listening them fly overhead camping is awesome.
>>321739751
Well in that scenario other people could enslave and rape me, and golly that sounds troublesome. We need some kind of arbitrary dividing line, like say a race of people genetically engineered for slavery who have special recall codes that can render them harmless at a moments notice.
>>321739840
>You will never be a crow
Feels bad man
>>321739051
>>321739458
The human mind is far greater than the sum of its parts.
We go above and beyond our biological programming every single day. That's what sentience allows.
If a synth is limited by programming, then they have no sentience. Therefor they don't deserve human rights.
You can't give a murderbot the same rights as a human if it can't defy its programming to kill.
>>321739840
>mfw there has been a crow outside watching me lurk in this thread for a while.
>>321739917
>Well in that scenario other people could enslave and rape me, and golly that sounds troublesome.
They can in your scenario as well, though. And would.
Here's a thought, why bother with Synths? Having "free will" and sentience, they make dangerous and unpredictable slaves. Why not make, you know, sexbots like you aren't the questionably sane leader of a secret Institute of technology?
>>321740056
Because there is no drama in that, why would a bunch of scientists make rational decisions dreamboy?
>>321740003
>You can't give a murderbot the same rights as a human if it can't defy its programming to kill
And G3 synths can and do just that.
It's the entire reason this thread exists.
>>321740003
>We go above and beyond our biological programming every single day. That's what sentience allows.
But Synths are sentient.
A sentrybot can't defy it's programming to kill. A synth can defy it's programming, that's kind of the whole reason why they escape, you know?
>>321740056
Hey I'm just working within my means here, I just got unfrozen like 2 days ago and I didn't make the rules. If I had been in charge of the institute from the start things would have been different. Fallout 4's Institute is a complete clusterfuck with no clearly defined goals and many nonsensical and contradictory elements. BUT it offers me the opportunity for sex slaves that no other faction does.
>Are Synths people?
no they're radiant ai
kill them before they start a riot because someone pickpocketed an apple
>>321737000
>str vs dex build
>>321740249
>BUT it offers me the opportunity for sex slaves that no other faction does.
Ever heard of raiders?
>>321733720
That reminds me, I'm really should get around to watching Blade Runner again.
>>321740401
If Todd let me become a raider I'd be there in a heartbeat. If Fallout 4 actually gave the player freedom things would be different.
>>321740461
I can't believe I still haven't.
So that's Moon and Blade Runner, and I guess Ex machina.
>>321740461
NV had Deckards gun. F4 is fucking Blade Runner, no gun. FFS.
>>321733720
Are they people? well that depends on what you mean by people, They aren't exactly human.
but they do deserve the same rights and protections, they seem to have free will, emotions, and are just as intelligent, or even more so, as natural born humans.
>>321740461
>the entire "tears in rain" bit was an ad-lib
>>321733720
i haven't advanced the plot too much, but from what i've read paladin danse is a synth and yet it fights synths.
so is he a falseflagging saboteur or are some synths unaware they're synths?
>>321733720
I think all sapient and sentient beings should have rights. Doesn't matter if they're organic or not, if they have intelligence comparable to humans they should be considered people and given the same rights. Anyone who disagrees is a bigot and a xenophobic asshole.
>>321740157
>>321740160
And that's why I said "if".
Also we shouldn't be making any kind of AI for fuck's sake. That's just a monumentally retarded thing to do.
>>321740771
Play moar fgt. Or Google.
>>321740771
There are plenty of synths that don't know until you kick their door in and hand them their recall code.
>>321736262
>>321735881
>http://img.ifcdn.com/images/86f8ce1785e595068095feeea40e3b140f2563af569516502ce66ee2ce26dace_1.gif
(can't upload since muh 4mb limit for images)but expect the crows to be the ones serving as counselors and war instigators for dogs, cats and dolphins when humans wipe themselves and animal kingdom takes control once again - tl;dr: crows will be jews in animal controlled world
>>321740920
ah very well... they work as sleeper agents then.
>>321740875
i already have 8days and a few hours in this game but i haven't progressed too much in the main plot
>>321741356
>but i haven't progressed too much in the main plot
Seems normal, that's how I play Bethesda games.
I never did finish Skyrim, I just fucked around. When a good number of mods are out I'll probably do the same with F4.
>Are Synths people?
>>321733720
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjuQRCG_sUw
TNG on whether or not synths are people.
>>321733720
Shit, I think of a lot of the Mr. Handy's as people. Synths are a fucking no-brainer: Yes, absolutely people deserving of rights. I'm not so lacking in imagination as to think that my exact model of meat machine is the only valid possible instance of sapience.
Considering the experiments with the kid that's made to see how believable a synth is it's likely there's a number of "people" synths that are just programmed to act as people and respond in specific ways, a separate group from the very advanced synths that are virtually human with "free will". You don't truly know what is going on in each synth's mind, it's an existential nightmare and I'm surprised they didn't play this angle up more in the story like in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep.
>Are robots people
no
>>321733720
Can somebody walk into your room and shut you off like a machine by saying a few words?
Synths have no free will, arent even sapient most likely.
Not people.
>>321742436
No but they can do it by simply shaking your head just enough that your brain touches your brain case.
>>321742436
>arent even sapient most likely
And how do you know that? What element do you pick up on while speaking to them that is fundamentally not person-like?
>>321733720
ghost in the shell made for u. 1995
>>321742436
>Can somebody walk into your room and shut you off like a machine by saying a few words?
Yeah, I'm a depressed beta NEET with two spectacularly failed suicide attempts because I'm too autistic to even get them right. I'd be mush if someone came in and had some carefully chosen words to destroy what's left of me emotionally.
>>321742553
>Just enough
Everyone on a rollercoaster would be dead by your logic
Inform yourself about the meningies anon
>>321742436
>Free will
when will these meme end?
>>321734253
Ad Victoriam.
>>321740582
Worst of all, you can find a synth and a guy dressed like Deckard on the roof of a rather short building.
No fucking gun.
synths aren't nearly as intellectually complex as humans, and couldn't be considered the same species as us even if they were
Assuming they even have a consciousness, we should still be able to kill/ enslave them like we most other non-human life forms
all of YOU are wrong.
self awareness what make us humans.
crows cant do that.
>>321742850
Ugh. 5.56 everywhere for only ONE (1) gun. And for fucks sake, F3 had the G3 looking assault rifle and the AK. NV had the M4 and family. F4 gets? Fucking shit on a stick.
>>321743118
A whole bunch of animals can pass the mirror test
>>321734836
does my hand + spit count?
>>321738387
Everythung you just said can be applied to women
>>321740853
That's like saying it is stupid to have children because they may kill you for your money.
>>321743181
no. they cant.
we are talking not about turing test and chinese room.
>>321733720
No, they are synths.
They should receive synth rights and legal protections only synths get because they are synths and not humans or animals.
>>321733720
Nice try, snatchers.
>>321743651
>>321743181
There are animals that demonstrate self awareness, it's a too loose definition for sapience. Same with abstract thought.
It's hard to make a good test, that's why the Replicant Test in Blade Runner was interesting: A bad detective would have missed an advanced replicant.
Stronger tests are necessary to define sapience.
Concept of the Mind is a decent one, but has disturbing implications on the mentally deficient.
Morality is a possible example, but any sufficiently complex abstract framework would work: Justice or Mercy would deliver similar responses.
I actually am keen on a "gross out" test using a particularly disturbing hypothetical; the ridiculous conclusion version of "you turn a turtle over in the sun."
But that then excludes psychopaths, ironically by permitting them to transcend the test, again with disturbing implications.
At this point, I'm thinking NP-Complete problems may be the only way to separate synths and humans, but with recent advances, that may not even work...
>>321734589
The thing about the institute is that its not one big faction, its really just sub divisions that try to cooperate and get along. There's a reason that faggot staged a lockdown in response to you being the next leader, under a truly united organization that shit would never fly. They're inconsistent because they're at odds with themselves
seriously this plotline is a straight rip off of ghost in the shell but with abour .00001% of the effort or inspiration
