What makes gunplay in FPS good or bad?
Why does it feel so much better shooting guns in Wolfenstein TNO or Metro Last Light than it does in Fallout 4?
fallout 4 is shit that's why
>>321592963
Mostly because of the RPG mechanics.
Unless it's a boss, when you shoot someone in the head with .50 cal sniper rifle, you'd expect someone to be dead.
It's not fun when you're railing a full mag into a sponge.
>>321592963
A feeling of real strength behind the guns and how the enemies react to them. Hearing the big boom of two dual wielded assault rifles in wolfenstein is more satisfactory than pew pewing with a laser rifle at Fallout. Seeing the Nazis launch back when you shoot them simply feels better than some synth standing there shooting back. Bethesda cant be fucked to make AI that is smart and a challenge to engage. The poster above me also has a point, the gamey aspect of RPGs can lead to boring bullet sponges.
Gamebryo is a really fucking bad engine for FPS, but fallout also has thousands of interactive objects in each cell, with all their own physics.
>>321592963
In a word, weight.
Fallout 4 feels floaty. Real fps feel forceful and heavy.
Powerful guns feeling powerful
Ex. a double barrel shotgun absolutely shredding an enemy point blank instead of taking off 75% of his healthbar
>>321593258
>Mostly because of the RPG mechanics
I dunno. Tried playing Black OPs 3 and the gunplay felt unsatisfying.
>>321593380
I grabbed an AI mod for Fallout 4 as soon as possible, and it did actually help a lot. Enemies lob grenades, shoot from cover, and shoot aggressively too.
I quite like how you can dismember ghouls and synths too, it does add some reactivity to the game world. All they need now is to let enemies flee (and sprint), and surrender.
Fallout 4 is shit in a lot of ways but it's core gunplay is pretty serviceable in my books. It just needs heaps of tweaks.
so is the wolfenstein worth it?
I even read its locked to 60 and includes tons of cutscenes.
>>321594219
Its definitely worth $8.99 sale price.
And yes that engine ID keeps using is shit. I think its the same engine as Rage.
>>321592963
I don't know about wofenstein or metro, but this is what broke fallout for me:
--VATS
--Cinematic killcams
--ludicrous gibs
Honorable mention to badly implemented amputations, and being able to loot an entire corps from a tiny chunk of their skull.
impact, sound, physics
First of all the controls should be responsive. In something like Fallout 3/NV/4 the camera never feels right. I feel like I am playing with a controller, the mouse just doesn't control the camera like it would in a normal game. I don't don't know what you can call it. Camera acceleration? Mouse lag? Awful coding? I don't fucking know, I just know I'd like to have aim assist in shitty Bethesda shooters.
When you play something like Insurgency or Left 4 Dead the camera is like an extension of your arm. You control where you aim with pinpoint accuracy.
>>321592963
Fallout 4's gunplay blows 3 and NV's out of the water. Baby steps people.
>>321593890
Call of duty always had guns that go "pop"
A fps with good guns go "BOOM"
This is why farcry 2 has some of the best gunplay i have experienced
>>321594750
Adding artificial difficulty for players who don't use VATS; the crosshair deliberately wobbles and shakes to make it harder to aim.
The sound of the bullet actually hitting the enemy can make a big difference
>>321593690
i'm sure that a competent developer could implement an FPS in gamebryo.
bethesda however, are quite happy to do a crude crpg with simplistic combat/damage system.
>>321594796
>the gun sfx in blops 1
Jesus Christ that game has the worst sound design ever.
And then bad company 2 comes out around the same time with the best sound design ever.
>>321592963
It comes down to feedback.
Does the gun make a cool noise to let you know it's fired? Does the model react in an interesting way? Do the enemies?
This of course assumes you're talking purely from a shooting perspective and not a gameplay perspective.
>>321592963
Because Fallout 4 is the same recycled shit Bethesda has been serving us since 2005 with different coats of paint and minor differences (mainly more and more shit removed with each game).
Every game up to Skyrim, I easily clocked in a good 500 or so hours before becoming totally done with it. I didn't even reach 100 in FO4 before I couldn't load it up without becoming immediately bored.I'm almost tempted to right a concerned fan letter to Todd about how they need to start renewing their formula. Despite what /v/ thinks, I've always enjoyed Bethesda games despite them being buggy garbage, but FO4 disappointed me on a whole new level.
>>321594219
The bosses always find a way to be as stupidly awesome as possible and nazis are fun to shoot. Gunplay is solid and if you just want a good old fashioned shoot fest then its worth the price of admission.
How is Wolfenstein: NO?
Been looking for games totorrentbecause I've been bored as shit over holiday break,and brokeand need some new games to play.Give me some good games to play that aren't Undertale.I just played it today. I still don't understand the hype.
>>321594463
>I think its the same engine as Rage.
Which can actually renders fucking nice things. You can tweak the game a bit to improve texture resolution and avoid texture popping. It still have some problem with close-up interior texture but it engine isn't shit.
>>321594771
It does, as does the power armor, graphics, animations and AI, but it falters everywhere else.
>>321594796
>farcry 2 has some of the best gunplay i have experienced
I fucking hated the FC2 gunplay. Could not even get into Blood Dragon. Don't ask me why. I just couldn't.
>>321595498
How are you broke around christmas? No dosh under your tree?
It's super cheap on Steam right now, about 9 dollars. Definitely worth it.
>>321595935
That's Far Cry 3
>>321596121
And it's 5 am.
>>321596120
I have cash but it's going towards my car payment.I'm unemployed after being laid off in June. Went back to school in August to finish up my Programming degree. Couldn't find a job because of my shit school schedule. Been sucking my savings dry,I have 122 bucks left in my account and my car payment is 400.
>>321596328
Get out there and suck some dick, dude. I believe in you.
>>321595484
>The bosses always find a way to be as stupidly awesome as possible
But the bosses were awful, shit nigger
>>321594750
lazy multiplatform devs map mouse input to a virtual joystick to the game input. it results in the absolute shittiest controls imaginable.
>>321596384Thanks anon.
The response from the gun being fired, and the reload animations
Sound is important too, but impactful shooting is probably the most important
Also the controls have to feel responsive and solid. Destiny and Halo 5 both feel great, but are still shit games for other reasons
On the flipside I enjoyed Metro 2033's recoil because you're a kid shooting guns and it made the experience better.
>>321592963
I didn't know Hillary Clinton was in a video game.
>>321594596
>ludicrous gibs
>bad
>not liking eyeballs and jawbones exploding everywhere
Wolfenstein guns feel good because its ex-Starbreeze dudes.
Wolfenstein's definitely worth $9, even if I like it less and less as it goes on.
>>321592963
Sounds, animations.
This is why I love battlefield guns even if they can't balance them for shit, BC2 was a golden age for gun balance. Squad recently has also left me satisfied when it comes to gunplay.
>>321594750
Disable vsync at the driver level. This is an issue with gamebryo games, and I haven't seen much online about it. This'll fix the mouselag, at the expense of fucking up the physics.
>>321595498
Its fun. Itorrentedit as well and i enjoyed it. The environments and the weapons are fucking great, especially the Bombenschuss rifle in the DLC.
However i wish they (actual spoiler)explored the story of the magical techno jews more, and let you use their technology. Like that sweet ass golden battlesuit.
To answer the OP gunplay feels good or bad because of sound design and how enemies and the environment react to it. They need to make noise with the appropriate 'punch' regardless of the weapons place on the gun hierarchy.
Just because the first gun you get (usually a pistol) is some sad little peashooter that doesn't do much damage isn't a reason to make it sound like a party popper. "Lol 9mm isnt lethal" is a bullshit meme, all guns will kill you, some will just do more damage than a hole in your chest.
Enemies should react appropriately when they get shot, various materials should chip, dent, puncture, tear and disintegrate appropriately. Firing sound should change depending on if the character is indoors or outdoors and the reloading animation should be quick and punchy.
Some of my favorite weapons from various video games include:
.500 Magnum (Killing Floor 2)
Super Shotgun (Quake 1)
Shotgun (Rage)
Most weapons from Battlefield
Monolith Particle Whip/Baneblade Main Cannon (Dawn Of War)
Bombenschuss (Wolfenstein New Order)
Nailing this sort of good user experience is harder with sci-fi (Laser and Plasma blaster) style weapons and easier with projectile based/"modern" weapons because we don't have any common real world reference on Sci-Fi style blaster guns, but it is possible.
>>321594796
With realism mod, that is.
The enemies have kevlar for skin in vanilla.
>>321594796
>tfw literally just came back from playing some FC2 with Dylan's Mod
god I love the shooting in that game, there's nothing more satisfying than hipfiring hot lead from your pistol into some dirty african
>>321592963
Why are we outing Fallout 4 as having bad shooting? It was way better than fallout New Vegas in terms of FPS mechanics, but New Vegas is the one that gets all the dickriding under the Sun on this board.
I'm not saying fallout 4 had the greatest shooting mechanics of all time, or that they would even be in the top 100, but for all the problems Fallout 4 had, the shooting wasn't one of them and there are countless games out there with infinitely shittier gunplay in them.
>>321597685
>Why are we outing Fallout 4 as having bad shooting?
Its modern, as were the other games in OP. Its also recent, and this is /v/ where bringing up Fallout 4 guarantees replies.
FO4 wasn't bad, it wasn't great by any means, but definitely a huge improvement over FO3 / NV with everything feeling so non-reactive to anything.
>>321597685
The guns (despite being borderlandsy) and shooting them may not have been too bad, but what you were shooting was still the same old shit on the same level as 3, New Vegas.
Half of the gunplay is in what you shoot, how it tries to fight you, and how it reacts to being shot.
>>321598707
I'm not so sure, I'd say it's more to do with how satisfying the guns are to use, whether they feel powerful in terms of visual/sound design and their effects on enemies, rather than what specific enemies you are shooting at.
I feel like sound is a big factor.
>>321597685
Fallout 4 is new and many expected Bethesda to address previous concerns regarding their shit combat in every fucking game they make
Fallout New Vegas was a spin-off title to a game with already shit combat, leading no one to expect good combat. It also helped that New Vegas had good roleplaying mechanics compared to shit like Fallout 4, which facilities virtually no roleplaying (unless you enjoy the creative range of "Person incapable of saying no looking for son") Since skill checks are practically non-existent and melee combat is absolute garbage, you will likely be shooting your way through every situation--which only makes the shit gunplay even more obvious.
>>321599063
Even if you have them most amazing gunplay in the world, if all you're shooting is immobile bags of sand standing in the open you might as well not have a game.
Metro was literally call of duty tier gunplay but TNO had god tier gunplay
>>321597685
>Why are we outing Fallout 4 as having bad shooting?
Because it has bad shooting.
It IS better than the previous games, but it is still shit.
It being better than the previous games doesn't make it good.
>>321599523
I have to agree with you. Fighting a giant robot with virtually no attacks but you can only use rockets until you bring down its shield? Not that fun.
Jumping off the wall pumping lead into some zombie ninja where chunks of his body fly off with every shot? Pretty cool.
It needs to be a balance of
i can jump off walls with my gun?!
Shit my revolver sounds boss as fuck!
And look at this ninja bitch get rekt
>>321600642
>>321599481
So what exactly is so bad about it? All I seem to see are complaints like "It's shit".
It just comes across as people trying to complain even more about Fallout 4 just because people already don't like it rather than actually having something substantial to say about its gunplay. I don't think it was anything exceptional, but there wasn't anything about it that stood out as bad to me, it was just resoundingly acceptable.
>>321599523
Sure, but this is a thread about gunplay, not whether Fallout 4 is an overall good game or not.
>>321601117
Like I said in the previous post in the reply thread we have going on, I believe what you're shooting at is a big part of the gunplay.
Sound helps. FO4 guns sound like ass.
But most importantly, how enemies react to your shots.
>>321601197
Yup.
If my enemies all sit behind cover and pop up every 3 seconds it becomes a game of let me sit with my cross hairs on this spot. Hence ruining gunplay.
>>321601197
>>321601586
That's just ruining the gameplay, not specifically the gunplay. A game can have shitty gameplay but have satisfying gunplay.
>>321601753
It might just be my way of thinking but..
Gameplay, how the game is played
Game uses guns and shooting as the main game mechanic which is how the game was meant to be played.
I kind of see them as the same.
But i do understand what you're saying. Like the look of the gun, how the gun reacts, how it responds to players movements, recoil etc.
I just feel how the enemy reacts to your shooting changes the feel of the gunplay.
>>321601007
Lack of enemy reaction to bullets, poor sound design, boring weapons, and atrocious AI
Bullets will also randomly spread in an arbitrary cone, a callsign of awful fucking shooters
>>321602312
And I get where you are coming from in that you could say that part of gunplay is based on what you are shooting at and how you will have to continue shooting at it as it does different things.
it's just that to me then you would have to start arguing that old games have bad gunplay because they have poor AI in them, like Blood for example, the guns look and feel great, and tear enemies apart in satisfying ways, but most of the AI is based around just walking towards the player in a straight line, so you would have to say that the gunplay is bad/dated by your definition, when I'd say it's only really the gameplay in terms of enemy AI that is (and the first person platforming sections too).
>>321603034
Yup. This is where i feel developers mess up.
They get someone on the design team with just one of our views or they have both but one is really drowned out by the other.
If a development team could take both our requirements, your aspect of guns and my aspect of how the world reacts to your guns...
I think it would be great.
Just having a great looking/ sounding/ working gun cant complete gunplay.
Just having some dude get scared of you spraying his cover with some gun that cant be aimed properly and looks like some kid drew it on paper doesn't complete gunplay either.
Its a combination of our ideas
>>321597413
THIS
Gun noise is crucial. For example Resistance Fall of man was a generic OK shooter, but I loved it because of the arsenal sound design, especially the shotgun and the nail bomb.
Now that you mention KF2, one of the things I don't like about it is that guns doesn't sound powerful compared to KF. Explosions are nice though.
>>321603034
Also Blood has both our criteria.
Enemies get torn up really satisfyingly- how the world reacts to you
Guns are kick ass - the gunplay
It doesn't need to be state of the art to be good
>>321592963
>What makes gunplay in FPS good or bad?
weapons that shoot where the crosshair is pointed
a variety of weapons that show a difference in play between types of weapons, and the different power behind each shot of the different weapons
the target's reactions to the impact of the weapon
>>321592963
animations sound assets etc
how much damage it takes to kill something and also how they react to being shot/hit
>>321592963
as long as it isn't rooty tooty point & shooty, its fine. fallout 4 is a perfect example, shit they even have a system where you don't even need to aim lmao.
>>321594219
It's pretty basic shooter gameplay frequently interrupted by gratuitous scenes of torture and cutscene power loss.
>>321592963
>What makes gunplay in FPS good or bad?
If you have to think about how to use your weapon/ammo then it is good. If not, then not as good. Problem is it is influenced by ammo drop rates, dev-placed ammo dumps, map design, a great many things.
Gunplay that fits with the rest of a game is a good sign you have competent devs at the helm who understand shooters from top to bottom, not just one aspect or another.
>>321603957
I didn't play much KF1 but I agree that the current 9mm sound pales to the old one. The RPG rocket explosions sound great, as do most of the grenades, but the C4 and Half Stick of Dynamite sound like cloud puffs. Its honestly horrible.
Also the KF2 Desert Eagle sounds pretty boss.
>>321592963
Satisfaction. Weight. Power.
Guns are loud. Guns are powerful. Guns are heavy, gritty, machines that fling metal way, way faster than it should go. They should feel like they deserve respect. They should sound scary.
I always point to Red Orchestra 2 when people want a solid online shooter for this very reason. Guns are loud, powerful, accurate. Bolt actions will fucking kill you dead. Shooting a 1911 at a Jap feels different than shooting a P38 at a Russian. It's not just damage - it's the feel. The weight. And bullets go where you're actually aiming. So you have to be accurate. Every kill you get feels earned.
Plus, get shot at by a machine gun in CoD, or Battlefield. You'll probably get mildly annoyed. Get shot at by a machine gun in RO2. If you don't know what the fuck you're doing, you better hit the fucking ground and crawl like the little bitch you are before returning fire.
>>321592963
I'm a fan of the traditional doom/quake style. Fast paced, twitchy, and adrenaline pumping.
>>321592963
In my opinion the best FPS games are one's which reward tactical thinking but where you can still win through pure skill with a gun.
Take counterstrike for an example: picking a gun which is optimal for the range at which you are going to shoot is smart, but if you're a huge badass who's been playing for years you can still win with pretty much any loadout, at any range, for any map.
>>321607086
>pure skill
>cs
