Valve is the cancer of PC gaming.
>Valve, considered a monopolist in digital distribution of PC games
>Eats up 30% of profits from all Steam-based digital sales and 10-15% from item transactions
>Net profit estimated around 1 billion US dollars per year (meanwhile GTA 5's spending budget was like 200-300 million incl. marketing expenditure, and all of that spanned across multiple years)
>Employs only 350 staff for entire customer support, R&D, gamedev, sysadmin, web development and so on
>SteamOS still in beta
>Vulkan still not released to the public
>Steam client is still clunky and slow piece of crap
>Steam Controller is too expensive and nowhere near revolutionary
>Steam Broadcasting has been around for over a year and it bombed
>Steam VR won't be released in first three quarters of 2016
>All that money and still no E3 event dedicated to PC
>Abysmal customer support
>Two years since Dota 2 and still no details about new IPs of new games whatsoever
>Most of company investments are oriented to build a fucking CONSOLE around Steam and PC architecture
>you can pretty much forget about Half-Life 3 at this point
Does anyone else feel that Valve doesn't deserve their 30% cut at all? Fucking where goes all the money they earn? Servers can't cost that much.
There's only one explanation: Valve is either wasting, or piling up shittons of money. Their investments drag for years and it seems they stopped developing new video games at all.
Valve holds your games and the whole sector hostage. In fact, they don't need to do anything at this point. Valve investment is ineffective and their upkeep is so low that they can live off from their financial reserves for decades, let alone passive income.
Valve is cancer of PC gaming and it will continue to haunt us for years, dragging PC gaming down and filling up their basement with money they don't deserve.
The question is: how we can slap Valve's shit without hurting PC game developers?
If you want to wear down Valve's monopoly, you have to buy from competing websites (that DON'T sell Steam keys).
Still, most of the points that you mentionned are Valve's own problem and not something that affects PC gaming as a whole.
Just buy games available on other places than steam and pirate steam only games (i.e retail copy is just a cdkey for steam)
>>320941396
Witcher 3 sold 1.5 million on gog and 500k on steam
Just buy your games somewhere else if you hate valve so much
I see them as another distributor really. Nothing to hate.
They don't owe us anything since unlike sony, they don't sell us hardware and charge us for online.
>>320941396
>Still, most of the points that you mentionned are Valve's own problem and not something that affects PC gaming as a whole.
It is a big problem, because Valve takes 30% royalty for every video game they sell and they don't spend this money well enough to push the industry forward. Developers deserve this money more than Valve does.
>>320941154
>Eats up 30% of profits from all Steam-based digital sales
And how much do you think retailers take?
>Fucking where goes all the money they earn? Servers can't cost that much
You're getting a tonne of shit for free that you would pay subscription for on consoles and have sold to you as 'features'
>nearly 2016
>still using stim
cmmon realy?
>>320941154
WTF is Vulkan?
>>320941776
This
ORIGIN master race here
>>320941154
What I wish for them to stop doing is to either completely destroy steam greenlight or make the requirements for being accepted and allowed to sell games in the steam store a lot higher because at this point steam is oversaturated with shit that doesn't even belong on newgrounds.
I've no idea why people here like and use Steam so much. The only thing it has going on for it is the big catalog. But yeah, it's sad that lots of people think that steam = PC gaming when there are services available which don't fuck the customer in the ass nearly as much. Do people really need the chat and other social features?
>>320941859
shut the fuck up retard
>>320941762
dedicated servers existed long before steam did and it was completely free
>>320941843
>>320941859
Vulkan is a API you dingus(es). It's suppose to be OpenGL successor and made by AMD / OpenGL collaboration. This is the 'suppose' killer of DirectX we're waiting for considering it'll support all platforms.
>>320941154
>Servers can't cost that much
Steam is in the top 3 for most used bandwidth in the entire fucking world
>muh cut
Just like Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft, except if someone releases a Steam game physically Valve doesn't get additional cut. Only digital.
>>320942108
and not just that, it will make linux viable without dual boot
>>320941396
>(that DON'T sell Steam keys).
Not really possible when the majority of publishers have steam exclusive deals.
Its quite funny how much the selfproclaimed mustards cry about console exclusives when their beloved Valve does the same leaving them no other options but to buy on steam and zsing their steam platform.
>poll last friday about online stores used /v/
Niggah the market is healthy as fuck
>>320942138
if game uses steamworks and contains steam serial they still get the cut
>>320941932
>friends list and general community with chat program
>store
>mod workshop
>music player
>VOIP
For developers
>anti cheat
>easy update system and patching
They provide a lot of things for free that go beyond just being a retailer. Yeah these things existed years ago. Difference is you'd generally have to run about 5 programs at the same time to do it.
>>320941154
> Valve is either wasting, or piling up shittons of money.
They fail at everything lately, Steam controllers, Steam OS, their financial consultant is a guy that got an entire country of Greece bankrupt
>>320941154
>considered a monopolist in digital distribution of PC games
I don't think you understand what a monopoly is, OP.
>this thread again
>>320941154
>2008
>"WAAA why isn't this game on Steam I want to play it without a CD and SecureROM"
>2015
>"WAAA why is everything on Steam I don't want this DRM"
We're all guilty of it.
>>320942597
Steam isn't even DRM
It's like Netflix for video games, once they're gone items you've subscribed to are gone too
>>320941154
>>Valve, considered a monopolist in digital distribution of PC games
Except not
>>Eats up 30% of profits from all Steam-based digital sales and 10-15% from item transactions
Which is completely average
Everything else is just talking about stuff they're not releasing yet which I don't really understand, they release their stuff when they think it's done
What's your big beef with Valve in particular
>>320942319
>poll with only 136 votes
>having any relevance at all
Empirical evidence does not equal factual evidence. If i asked /pol/ about hitler and everybody says "he was good" does that mean everyone everywhere think hitler was good?
>>320942726
Is Gabe going to come to my house to erase my hdds or something
>two years since dota 2
atleast change the pasta
>>320941729
>implying 30% is that much
compared to how much console platforms take off, 30% is a windfall. A developer pushing their stuff through a console is generally not even seeing more than 20% of the money made on their game.
>>320942726
Except Steam is literally the definition of DRM
>Digital rights management (DRM) is a systematic approach to copyright protection for digital media. The purpose of DRM is to prevent unauthorized redistribution of digital media and restrict the ways consumers can copy content they've purchased.
You can't install a popular game without Steam these days or even play it unless you connect to their servers at least once nor can you share it or resell it.
>>320942726
>you have been disconnected
>steam ticket failed to validate
pal steam IS DRM, but its likey the best choice in terms of video games
the fact they would deactivate your account if you didt agree to the new TOS around 2010 was a load of bull though
>wahh capitalism is mean
fuck off op, they provide a service that customers are willing to use and producers are willing to pay for
the alternative is every active publisher uses their own assfuck drm client like EA and Ubisoft are using and anyone who claims they prefer Origin or Uplay to Steam is a lying cunt
>>320942951
Well you can share your games through family sharing
I don't know how people can use steam.
Do you not care about them blatantly spying on you?
How can you degrade yourselves to installing the malware known as Steam?
>>320942910
>>320941154
EXACTLY THIS, YO HO HO
>>320942940
Thats actually wrong.
A dev on consoles gets around 80%-70% percent of the revenue depending on console and wether they go digital or physical
>>320941154
And without them there'd be no PC market at all and no successful model for other companies to copy.
>>320943054
Or you know, a service where you can download and play games without being forced to install a shitty client.
This IS possible.
Not having a shitty client was the standard for a long long time.
>>320943030
No, dipshit, Steam at worst is DRM management. Steamworks is DRM. There's a difference.
Games that are not Steamworks do not require Steam to run and have their own executables in Steamapps that can run totally independently.
If you're going to complain about something be damn sure you know what you're talking about.
>>320943367
Yeah, instead we had Starforce and SecuRom
>>320943363
Where is this magical dream world of yours where the dev actually gets that much?
http://unrealitymag.com/video-games/how-your-60-video-game-is-chopped-up/
>>320943363
Publisher. The Publisher gets 70-80%
The dev gets a tiny fraction of revenue, a bonus if they meet a certain sales or score goal, or nothing at all depending on their contract.
>>320942951
>install
If the game isn't steamworks you can install and play it without steam. Steam is not the same thing as Steamworks.
>Share
1) Give friend Steam login
2) ???
3) profit
>Resell
You were never legally allowed to resell a game. Ever.
>>320941864
There are lots of valid criticisms aimed at Valve and Steam, however this not one of them. Just how fucking retarded you must be to be annoyed by Steam selling crappy games, how about just fucking ignoring it
>mfw all my favourite titles are steam exclusives
>>320942940
Console hardware is subsidized through software sales. Your PC hardware is not subsidized by Valve.
Literally every PC publisher begs you to buy games on their own web store because even after paying for their own storefront, payment processing, download servers, etc. they still end up better than giving Gaben a 30% cut.
Even a lot of indie devs prefer selling their games on their website instead of Steam.
>they don't make games and that makes them cancer
shit sucks, but that does not make them cancer
they are way better than companies that spew shit every year like Ubisoft and EA
>>320943705
>Literally every PC publisher begs you to buy games on their own web store because even after paying for their own storefront, payment processing, download servers, etc. they still end up better than giving Gaben a 30% cut.
You mean, Valve tries to get a profit off selling other peoples games?
>>320943457
and guess what makes use of steamworks, a good handful of games on steam also some games cant run without steam open in the first place
ergo, steam is DRM and thats just how it fucking is you god damm ignorant potato
steam is a necessary evil these days
>>320943609
Valve is not a publisher. Valve is a distributor.
>>320943780
It costs Valve virtually nothing to distribute a game. Maybe 5%. Them taking a 30% cut is ridiculous.
>>320943803
Well, no, Valve is a dev. Steam is a distributor.
Another anon was saying that devs got 80% of revenue from console sales which is absolute bullshit. Publishers get around that number, not the devs. Valve doesn't enter into it.
>>320943583
>Counting marketing
>Diversing between publishers and devs(on Steam devs too will only get 15% if they arent selfpublishing)
>>320943787
>and guess what makes use of steamworks, a good handful of games on steam also some games cant run without steam open in the first place
>ergo, steam is DRM
Your logic is so incredibly fucking dumb I don't even know where to begin
Here, in easy terms
Not every game on Steam uses Steamworks
If a game uses Steamworks, it can only r8un through Steam
If a game does not use Steamworks, it does not need to run through Steam
Thus Steamworks is optional DRM for games sold on Steam
>>320941932
Confirmed for knowing fuckall about game companies and game development. None of that is completely, truly free. Someone is paid to develop all that shit, someone is paid to maintain it and the money has to come from somewhere.
>>320943609
Most AAA PC games are Steamworks these days and there is no way to get around it (legally)
Forgot about Family Sharing, so I suppose that will work for now.
Also, its understandable if you can't resell digital content ( for now), but Steamworks locks you out of being able to sell a physical PC game that someone else will be able to play with.
>>320943803
They're both
>>320943787
>ergo steam is DRM
That's not how logical argumentation works, anon.
Steamworks is a DRM scheme whereby you must use Steam to hit servers that verify your ownership of the IP.
Steam is a distribution platform that connect to Steamworks but is distinct from Steamworks.
Once again since you seem slow:
Steam: Distribution platform
Steamworks: DRM
>>320943945
Steamworks is part of Steam.
DRM was part of Steam since day 1.
Steam is DRM.
Remember when DRM was "we want to stop you from copying this CD", not "we want you to install this spyware so we can track what you play and when you play it and then sell that data to the highest bidder"?
>>320943609
Yeah but he was claiming devs get 70% on steam, so i was assuming he meant selfpublished/in house devs.
Because like i already said on steam devs that dont publish their own games get jack shit either
>>320943367
sure that's totally going to happen in an industry as obsessed with DRM as this one
you're welcome to write to publishers asking them to kindly not assfuck their games with anti-piracy measures all the time
let me know when they agree :^)
>>320943969
>Most AAA PC games are Steamworks these days and there is no way to get around it (legally)
And? What, you think if Steamworks wasn't around they'd just go "Oh well guess no DRM for us!"
>You can't sell physical games!
Legally you never could. When you purchase a game, even a physical disc, you are purchasing a non-transferable license to execute the software contained therein. Keyword: non-transferable.
>>320944042
How much does Valve pay you to pretend DRM isn't the reason Steam was made?
>>320943895
They first had to get into the position to distribute those terms, which means developing the Steam software, setting up the infrastructure like high speed big bandwidth connections to lots of servers, service to consumers and partner companies, and so on
Other companies can feel free to set up their own network and take a smaller cut, I'm sure publishers would eventually be glad to switch to them
This is how business works
>>320943931
>counting marketing
considering that's the lion's share of console development, it's a valid case
>diversifying between publishers and devs
you're the one who argued that the devs are the ones getting money, and there is substantial proof that they aren't
>>320944042
>Steamworks is a DRM scheme whereby you must use Steam to hit servers that verify your ownership of the IP.
Except you had to do that before Steamworks even existed.
Steam is the DRM. Steamworks is an API to access the Steam DRM.
>>320944093
That's like saying your car is an engine. Your car HAS an engine. That engine is vital to how your car works. But the engine itself is not your car, and your care is not solely the engine.
>>320944127
No he wasn't, he was claiming devs on console get 70-80%
No dev on any platform gets that much money, publishers get the bulk of revenue. Devs get whatever their contract stipulates, be it a % of revenue (lol never), a bonus (usually), or nothing (Platinum)
>>320943945
the only dumb person here is you buddy
i simply states how things are but nope you had to contradict that
see
>>320943969
and
>>320944093
further attempts to refuse reality will just make you look more silly
>>320944213
>Steamworks is an API
Steamworks HAS an API, that doesn't make Steamworks an API.
I'm out, there's no point in arguing this with someone who is clearly not computer-literate.
Go bother /g/, though, it'd be funny.
>>320944093
You're either clinically retarded or funposting at this point
>>320944173
Well, I mean, its not like there is a whole used game industry that exists or anything like that.
PC Gamer here.
I fucking despise steam yet I use it to play games online, I also no longer buy games on steam.
the whole "digital game license" truly sickens me to my core.
I am not a fan of paying for online on consoles either, I still have my ps3 for JRPG's.
>>320944208
There are tiny indie studios who set up their own distribution system cheaper than Steam.
It literally costs nothing to rent servers and bandwidth.
The only reason Steam can command a 30% cut is because dumb valvedrones will not buy any game from the people who actually made it but only buy from Valve.
>>320941154
How? Why?
I get brand new games at the same or sometimes lower price as in any other place, online or offline.
I get really good sales at least 4 times a year for up to 80%.
For a developer to get their game on steam is basically free advertisement.
>Valve holds your games and the whole sector hostage. In fact, they don't need to do anything at this point. Valve investment is ineffective and their upkeep is so low that they can live off from their financial reserves for decades, let alone passive income.
Nigga do you not understand how servers work? Valve has to pay for those and all bandwidth used to download from said servers.
Valve isn't and never has been cancer. It basically saved PC gaming last generation. PC gaming was a joke back then and Valve almost single-handedly turned it around. But keep on shouting about your boogeyman theories. I'll be enjoying my cheap games.
>>320944350
Steam had DRM long before Steamworks existed, dipshit
>>320941154
they make good sales, I but them
nothing more, nothing less.
They do that for money, for for "passiun" bullcrap and it's OK...
Steam is a smart wat to make money with 0 effort, and it's genious
>>320944401
One that is slowly dwindling to nothing.
You forget that it was only 2 years ago that console makers were considering making CD keys for console games, and even since the 7th gen publishers have been doing everything to either stanch or stop secondhand sales, between exclusive preorder content and other bullshit.
>>320944258
>Being retarded
Let rephrase what he said as you lack reading comprehension. Vales only takes 30% of the devs money, while consoles always take 80% of the devs money.
See >>320942940
>>320944210
Then you also have to account for it on steam.
And in the end you are still wrong since devs that dont self publish get the same on every platform which is fixed to a contract that is only based on percentages of the revenue, hence the publishing costs being not taken into account.
>>320944467
Did you read my post
Yes, it's cheaper to distribute a thousand install only copies of your own game than it is to set up a huge infrastructure that sells and updates thousands of games with millions of copies, provides support to everyone, and provides the community features and overlay that Steam does
Surprise surprise, OP is a faggot.
There's only one or two legit points in that entire autistic wall of text.
All you can do is stop giving Steam your money.
>>320944401
Yes, and the entire time it's been operating its legality has been questionable. Just because no one wants to spend the money to sue gamestop doesn't mean what they do is perfectly above-board.
Software always has been and always will be licensing and not a physical product. It's infinitely reproducible at next to no cost so that's the way it has to be. If you ever thought otherwise you were wrong.
>GoG
>You buy a game.
>You own it.
>You can play it without spyware.
>Steam
>You buy a license to play a game.
>You don't own the game and your license can be revoked at any time.
>You must install spyware to play.
More devs need to come to the light side
>>320944807
>GoG
Go on
>You buy a game
Ok.
>You own it
Nope. You own a license. If you owned the game you'd have the right to sell copies yourself. Try again.
>>320943215
it's 4 years since dota 2. at least learn your facts if youre gonna post this shit
>>320944681
You don't need an MBA to understand that distributing and supporting 1 million copies is way cheaper per copy than distributing and supporting 1000 copies.
If indie studios can run their own distribution systems for a single game more economically than Steam can with hundreds of games, then there is something seriously wrong with Steam.
>>320944807
Wow, talk about being delusional. You made two critical mistakes in your post, can you guess what they are?
>>320944807
You are a dumb and/or uneducated idiot. Even if you buy a boxed game you do not own it. You still own just a license.
>>320944895
Well to be fair you CAN download and play it without installing any additional software. And its really not that hard to share it with someone else.
>>320944936
>than it is to set up a huge infrastructure [that sells] and updates thousands of games with millions of copies, provides support to everyone, and provides the community features and overlay that Steam does
And provides free marketing to boot
>>320944616
Valve takes 30% of the PUBLISHER's money, dipshit.
>>320941154
>Vulkan still not released to the public
You think Valve is in control of this project? It's a collaborative effort.
I'll give you the shitty customer support, but everything else in the list irrelevant. It is not killing us, at least yet. If you look at the track record, Steam has gotten a shit ton of new features. In fact, Valve has been pushing the boundaries with Steam. (ie. greenlight, steam market)
>>320944895
If you buy physical you own a license.
If you buy on GoG you own a license.
If you buy on Steam you own a subscription.
>Valve, considered a monopolist in digital distribution of PC games
Made a service that is better than the rest and now has the largest userbase because of it.
>Eats up 30% of profits from all Steam-based digital sales and 10-15% from item transactions
They're a business, not a charity you dumb faggot
>Net profit estimated around 1 billion US dollars per year (meanwhile GTA 5's spending budget was like 200-300 million incl. marketing expenditure, and all of that spanned across multiple years)
They're a private company, what's your point?
>Employs only 350 staff for entire customer support, R&D, gamedev, sysadmin, web development and so on
And its worked wonders for them. They've made some of the best games, business models and innovative services from only 350 staff
>SteamOS still in beta
Why does this matter? They're building and improving a fucking operating system with said 350 people
>Vulkan still not released to the public
Why does this matter? It's no finished
>Steam client is still clunky and slow piece of crap
Could do with improvements, but by no means a piece of crap.
>Steam Controller is too expensive
hahahahahaha, poorfag.
>nowhere near revolutionary
Its helped make my couch gaming experience much better and it's better than every other controller for FPS games
>Steam Broadcasting has been around for over a year and it bombed
They never meant to compete with twitch - its to share with friends
>Steam VR won't be released in first three quarters of 2016
You're fucking retarded, you think development doesn't take time or you don't run into issues? time?
>All that money and still no E3 event dedicated to PC
Again, why should this be up to valve?
>Abysmal customer support
True.
>Two years since Dota 2 and still no details about new IPs of new games whatsoever
Who cares
>Most of company investments are oriented to build a fucking CONSOLE around Steam and PC architecture
Innovation is good
>you can pretty much forget about Half-Life 3 at this point
Good.
>console peasant mad at cheap games that PC gaming gets the thread
lol
>>320945020
If you buy on the dev's website you get way better support and community than on Steam. Literally no dev reads the steam forums if they have their own.
>>320945086
>If you buy on Steam you own a subscription.
Where do you get that from?
>>320941154
>Two years since Dota 2 and still no details about new IPs of new games whatsoever
>2 years
you mean almost 5
Don't forget steampushed for paid mods.
>>320941154
>GoG
>won't stock a single game made after 2000 except for Bitcher because they know CoD of Doody will #rek n kek Bitcher in sales
Frankly said, it feels more like they are the only thing keeping PC gaming alive.
Put yourselves in the shoes of a publisher and think about the PC without Steam/Origin/etc. Would you even consider releasing your game for PC?
>>320945330
>Literally no dev reads the steam forums if they have their own.
Every dev that has games on steam reads their forums as well as every major forums online. You are really delusional if you think they wouldn't.
>>320945407
Yes, how dare they try to provide a platform where mod makers could get payed for their work and be encouraged to make larger and more ambitious mods. What a travesty.
>>320945351
>the rights to access and/or use any Contents and Services accessible through Steam are referred to in this Agreement as "Subscriptions."
http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/
Everything on Steam is a subscription.
>>320945428
What the fuck are you talking about?
Making sales is the point of a digital distribution service
>>320945510
Anon, do you have brain damage? paid mods are the most retarded thing, there's no quality contro, everyoone could be like that kid who made a shitty bone armor and sell it for 40 dollars and nobody would bat an eyelash.
>>320945537
>the rights to access and/or use
That's what a license is.
>>320945468
Major publishers are actually trying to get away from Steam
>>320945330
This is all completely ignoring the point that we're talking about business here. Valve invested time, money and risk into making Steam happen. They've been successful and now they have the largest market share, which gives them the possibility to be the dominanot one in negotiations and dictate their share. But if the share is as unreasonably high as you're suggesting then other companies should launch big efforts in making and popularizing their own platforms. If EA were happy with a 10% cut they'd certainly lure a lot of the big publishers away from Steam and the userbase would eventually follow. But they don't, because there'a apparently not enough money to be made in that, which suggests that the share isn't high enough for the effort of building up that platform to be worth it.
>>320945567
I'm talking about how CDPR is a bunch of cowards who are afraid of real competition on their platform, so they only sell fossilized shovelware
>>320941154
>Steam
>monopoly
k
>>320945001
You can just leave the download part and drop the play part. If a game doesn't have Steamworks or other DRM, I can download it with Steam, copy it anywhere, even to a PC without Steam and play it. What GOG does however is conveniently package the games and doesn't force you to download it through a client. And of course, they guarantee no DRM.
And you were technically always buying a licence for the game, not the game itself even in the old days of physical media.
I mean, I don't like Steam, I prefer physical copies (with cartridges of various kind being my favorite medium for games), but I wish there was less retards like OP that religiously spout wrong information and opinions as if they're solid facts. It just enables people to dismiss you when you say anything legit against Steam as
>oh, so you're one of THOSE people, Anon
Fuck you OP, you're fucking retard and a shitposter
>>320945608
>there's no quality control
The market.
>everyoone could be like that kid who made a shitty bone armor and sell it for 40 dollars
And it'd be up to the community whether or not they want to pay 40 dollars for bone armor. Maybe some people do. I'd be willing to bet most won't.
>>320945643
Exactly, but they call it a subscription so they can fuck your consumer rights and terminate your subscription.
>>320945708
But that's bullshit.
They'd love to have more developers publish new games on them.
It would make them tons of money because people wouldn't have to put up with Steam faggotry
>>320945670
Yes, they're trying to take marketshare from Steam.
They'll most likely be unsuccessful.
Steam created the majority of the current marketshare.
Without steam the marketshare they're trying to steal would likely not exist.
>>320945827
>they call it a subscription so retarded EU laws that say you can refund licenses at any time no questions asked don't apply to their software
FTFY
>>320945778
>The market.
Wich is made of retarded kids that support EVERYTHING that is related to their favorite video games wich is called blind royalty, remember, bethesda fans hated horse armor before but would defend it if it comes out on 2015.
>Maybe some people do.
You won't change the price of an item you want to buy, and a single piece of armor you can make yourself is not worth anything, if a popular modder wants to make revenue they could add a donation option, instead of having everyone pay them money for a mod people won't be able to refund if is utter shit.
>>320945853
>PC gaming did not exist before Steam
>>320945939
And now the French consumer association is suing them for that among other things
>>320945994
>smug disney posting
have we come full circle?
>>320945827
Yes they can, but do you often hear that happening? They wouldn't be big if they fucked with people consumer rights arbitrarily. That would be bad for business.
>>320945939
Those don't apply to digital content after you've started consuming it though
>You also enjoy the right of withdrawal within 14 days from concluding the contract for online digital content. However, once you start downloading or streaming the content you may no longer withdraw from the purchase, provided that the trader has complied with his obligations. Specifically, the trader must first obtain your explicit agreement to the immediate download or streaming, and you must explicitly acknowledge that you lose your right to withdraw once the performance has started.
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/internet-services/rights-e-commerce/index_en.htm
That shouldn't apply to vidya but it's not really specified that way currently
>>320945994
digital distribution didn't and retail is dead
>>320941154
>Steam is killing PC gaming
Anyone who says this reveals themselves to be a MUSTARD RACE faggot who hopped on the bandwagon 4 years ago.
Anyone else remembers that funeral home called PC gaming before Steam became popular
>>320945963
>I don't want to pay for X, so I will pretend someone paying for X is a bad thing
Ok.
>>320945852
>This is what Good Ol' Goys actually believe
>>320945963
That only works if it flies under the radar, since making money off other peoples licensed work without giving them a share of the profit isn't really legal
The only reason the PC market still exists is thanks to Steam
>>320945939
>Being this retarded
The law applies to all digital services, including "subscriptions". Steam complies with the law you are referring to.
They define it as a subscription to circumvent other consumer protection, like the right to resell and the right to permanently own a license vs owning a terminable subscription.
>>320946036
that lawsuit is about reselling games, not refunds.
Don't want the 30% cut? Don't publish on Steam. The percentage is even up to your own dealings and is a lot smaller than what you'd get with traditional publisher/retail deals.
Don't see how their net profit is my business.
Nor how many people they employ.
Vulkan isn't owned by Valve.
Client has its slow moments but wouldn't call it clunky really.
No clue why you care about how their controller does, I certainly don't.
Broadcasting is nice and works really well, I use it from time to time.
Don't see why rushing your VR product is somehow good business, you sure wouldn't bitch & whine if it was shite and released sooner huh?
E3 is an investors event and PC is way to big a platform to represent with some dinky stage. This isn't some shitty console platform that only gets 3 worthwhile games a year.
They have no reason to develop new IP if they don't care to.
The steambox is just a prebuild PC like your mom bought you from Aldi, sure it's stupid but you were stupid enough to get the Aldi one as well.
HL3 never being made is a shame.
You sure bitch a lot about the inner workings of a company that are completely irrelevant to you and anything you do.
>>320945963
Shovelware existed even way back on the NES and even before it and pretty much always sold well. Shovelware had a hickup in sales only once and it caused the video game crash. You're a fucking idiot if you think Steam is at fault here and should babby all the users by telling them what to buy by curating the content themselves. That's what user reviews and scores are for.
>>320941154
>wanting a many more Uplays and Origins
No, I just want most of it all in one thing.
At the end of the day they're all going to want a download service since it's the future.
Then again I hope there will be some software which combines it all into one now that would be better.
But it gives me sales and achievements and collectibles.
I'm not even joking. Those are the only reasons why I use Steam instead of any of its competitors.
>>320946209
There were games on PC, but god knows that most of them weren't all that widely distributed.
Also, it's like nobody remembers how draconian DRM was before Steam existed.
>>320941721
>Witcher 3 sold 1.5 million on gog
>sold
No, they did GOG keys only to all resellers and free nvidia game promos so their GOG "sales" were inflated.
>>320946115
and what are you going to do. not play games exclusive to Stream?
They won't do it just because, but they have a way to do it and reserve the right to fuck you in the ass.
>>320943609
>2004
>goes to some kind of popular swapmeet
>there are polices in the enterances, middle and exit
>looks around the swapmeet
>people are reselling some n64 games
>bought goldeneye, paper mario and smash 64 for 15$
???
>>320946248
>This is what 12 year olds actually believe
>>320945994
PC gaming software sales were very low and totally stagant up until about 2004 when it started experiencing growth, and then it exploded around 2009.
Steam launched in 2003.
Without Steam the current PC marketshare would be much smaller. Full stop.
>>320946356
>Also, it's like nobody remembers how draconian DRM was before Steam existed
It was just as draconian.
>>320946496
And you've revealed yourself as knowing nothing. Better luck next time.
>>320946414
Reselling a license is a civil issue, not a criminal issue. The rights owner would have to sue.
What do they teach you kids in school these days
>>320946496
>implying Steam was as bad as Starforce
you could at least put some effort into bait.
>>320946496
>I have to run a Steam client to play my game, a boo hoo muh megabytes of RAM
>This is just as draconian as limited installs and Starforce bricking your disk drive
Shove your fedora up your ass, you contrarian faggot. ROW ROW FIGHT DA POWER, DOWN WITH STEAM. GOG.COM 4 LIFE.
ITT: People who don't know what a monopoly is
>>320946471
you also forget about 10 other digital storefronts at the time. Steam won because the were vicious and used cut throat tactics.
Fitting for people who came from Bill Gates era Microsoft.
>>320946206
>retail is dead
Because they fucked up when they wouldn't adapt to a changing market. Steam just spearheaded a trend that was gonna happen anyway and won because they offered most bells and whistles at competitive terms and price.
It's pretty bad, but that's what tends to happen, particularly with electronic goods. You probably don't want to have a kindle, a nook, and whatever other larger publishers released. Thus most people use Kindle. You probably don't want your music scattered about itunes, spotify, can't name a third but I'm sure it exists. So you use only one. Same with netflix. Same with search engines. Same with every fucking thing on the web. There's so much shit that having it all in one place is a massively massive advantage.
>>320946356
I don't see how steam isn't worse.
>Must have steam installed
>Must have Internet
>Must report back everything you do to steam so they can sell it to advertisers
>>320946496
'no'
>>320946698
>Must have Internet
Wrong as always, from the anti-steam crowd. >BUT YOU NEED ONLINE TO GO OFFLINE
Nope, not since 2007. Congratulations on spreading 8 year old fud.
>>320946471
Then how come the earlyand mid 2000s had way better and bigger budget PC games than the late 2000s when Steam became dominant?
Dumb Valvedrones rewriting history.
>>320946540
Get fucked, you pompous cunt. Draconian DRM measures have required you to install 3rd party shit *before* Steam became popular, and they sure as hell require you to do exactly the same thing now. Your vacuous "IF U DIGREE UR NO REL GAEMR" babble doesn't change this.
![500x_wheel[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/nrKrxL6.jpg "500x_wheel[1].jpg")
Hey guys, remember before Steam when DRM didn't exist?
>>320946301
>No clue why you care about how their controller does, I certainly don't.
What's more, their controller is of a standard price while offering an actual alternative to other controllers which mostly distinguish themselves by shape and the position of left analog stick.
The rest is pretty much on point, OP is a fag.
>>320946751
>Ahh, so pompous, vacuous and whatever else my dictionary says, I am so above you plebians, for I am a crusader of good old games dot com.
I tip my fedora, and tilt my trilby to you, fine sir. Keep fighting the man
>>320946607
Disk based DRM almost always worked.
Steam prevented you from playing games every other weekend because the forced updates broke everything.
>>320946734
lying shill
>The Steam client application's files must be updated to allow for the use of Offline Mode. If your game's status is "100% - Ready" but you receive the message "This game cannot be started in Offline Mode" when attempting to play offline, the Steam client application's files need to be updated.
>>320946698
>Must have steam installed
Yep, definitely worse than being told you're allowed to install your game 4 times before the key is invalid.
>Must have Internet
Oh yeah, internet connections? Those are RARE AS FUCK in 2015, what are they thinking? This is DEFINITELY on par with my optical drive, that I paid money for, being destroyed by starforce
>>320946770
Fucking this, I'll take my so called "rental" over cd keys and worse.
>>320946698
>I don't see how steam isn't worse
>same as other DRM
>same as other DRM
>not true
>>320946983
>Can't tell the difference between launching a game and updating the client
Well that's about the sewer rat level of intelligence I expect from a GOG shill, really.
>>320942319
>no torrents
>>320941880
I need other options then, elaborate?
>>320946751
3rd party shit that only checked if you had the disk in your drive or not.
Valve went way beyond that by requiring an online account and authentication to install and play your games.
>>320946621
Name one game that had limited installs and was released prior to Steam.
I like how you're all acting arrogant as fuck and referring to everyone else as clueless noobs who dun kno shit bout PC gaming, yet you're the only ones here whose position is based *entirely* on distortions of reality.
>>320943895
Capitalism motherfucker. Valve isn't a charity.
>>320941880
>I've no idea why people here use Steam so much
>The only thing it has going on for it is the big catalog
Yeah I dunno
>>320946936
>Steam prevented you from playing games every other weekend
Logging in once would let you play in offline mode indefinitely when Steam first launched.
They changed it to a one-month grace period quite recently.
>>320947069
>BUT YOU NEED ONLINE TO GO OFFLINE
Go and kill yourself
>>320946471
What's this alternate reality bullshit? Are you a closet consolefag? Cause you sure sound like one, they've been prophesizing the death of PC games for over 2 decades now, yet it never came close to that.
>>320946873
Yeah, good stuff. So much better than a point or an argument.
>>320947330
Cool argument, bro.
Super convincing.
>>320947173
>Name one game that had limited installs and was released prior to Steam.
It's amazing that you've just straight up admitted you're underage since you don't recall the premiere DRM solution of the early-mid 2000s.
>>320946873
>Getting triggered by the word 'pompous'
Are you 12?
>>320947226
You obviously weren't around when Half Life 2 launched. Offline mode never worked.
Not that it mattered because the majority of people couldn't even install the game they just paid $60 for because of Steam server trouble.
Online DRM is cancer and Valve is the reason we have it. Nobody can defend that.
>>320947330
PC was in a HORRIBLE spot from 2001-2004 you fucking retard. It was so bad that devs started to switch away, that was the era when MANY PC RPGs and FPS games started going console focus, one of the main reasons Deus Ex 2 ended up consolized to fuck.
>>320947378
You just proved you are 12. Starforce did not have online activation before Steam.
>>320947378
Just fucking name one.
>>320946301
Aldi PCs generally have an excellent value.
Obviously you don't get a high performance machine, but for your average "dumbest user" it's certainly not a bad deal.Aldi PCs zeichnen sich generell durch ein sehr gutes Preis-Leistungsverhältnis aus.
Natürlich bekommt man keinen Hochleistungsrechner, aber für den durchschnittlichen DAU ist es sicherlich kein schlechter Deal.
Does Aldi even sell PCs outside of Germany?
>>320947479
>You obviously weren't around when Half Life 2 launched. Offline mode never worked.
Wow holy shit dude, when Half Life 2 launched, that was only 11 short years ago! Just a grain of sand in the hourglass in the slowly progressing world of technology.
Holy fuck was that a god damn retarded argument, think your fucking posts through before you hit enter.
>>320947371
>PC was dying in 2004 guys
>guys trust me it totally was
OK dude, I suggest looking at some sales charts first before claiming PC as a gaming platform was ever dying.
>>320947606
Do they still sell them *in* Germany?
>>320947479
>when Half Life 2 launched
This is definitely a very valid argument against Steam today. I mean it's not like Half Life 2 is a decade and a half old or anything.
>>320944534
you're wrong, it was considered DRM because you needed keys to unlock games
are you a gog marketer?
>>320947479
Not him
I've been using steam for about 8 years and I've had maybe 5 downtimes during that time because the servers were dead and I wanted to play some Steamworks-protected game. In return I got great convenience through the digital system which allows me to install and move games without having to juggle cds, patches, the integrated chat and other overlay features, huge sales and some minor stuff like forums for sparsely populated games
I'm pretty content with their brand of draconian drm
>>320947629
>I can't differentiate between "bad, low sales" and "dying"
You are /r/pcmasterrace incarnate. You know nothing of PC gaming before you joined it in the 2011 bandwagon and are looking to rewrite history to pretend PC was a top dog since time immemorial.
The problem with steam is the same as the problem with Walmart. They are simply too preferable for the consumer most of the time. Gog is the closest thing to a competitor and I will usually buy from them unless steam has a better price.
>>320942797
>hitler gets mentioned
i just won the arguement
>>320947707
I suppose they do, although I haven't seen any advertised recently, so maybe they have phased that out.
>>320947378
Why haven't you named one yet? Is it because you're overwhelmed by the amazement of how dumb and underage everyone else is?
>>320947479
>You obviously weren't around when Half Life 2 launched. Offline mode never worked.
I bought HL2 in-box on day 1 and played it on my laptop that didn't have an internet connection. I had to hook it up to the router to register my account and the game and after that I was golden.
When you have to lie to defend your position you have a shitty position.
>Does anyone else feel that Valve doesn't deserve their 30% cut at all?
unfortunately 30% is an industry standard.
you can't blame valve too much, you need to put the blame equally on all digital providers. mobile app stores, etc.
>>320941154
So the argument for steam being cancer is "it's a distribution platform" followed by "it makes money" and "their RnD department doesn't cater exclusively to me"
Am I missing something?
When you compare valve to other companies as a game developer it comes out favourable, and when you compare it to other companies as a publisher it comes out favourably. When you compare what it's doing with steam versus other gaming platform it comes out especially favourably. Examine what's being complained about in the context of what's out there and I have a hard time seeing how these arguments are made with a straight face
>>320947895
I loved that shit in the (late) 90's. Their PCs were never top tier, but for a kid who's too dumb to build one from scratch, they were pretty good.
>>320948137
>Am I missing something?
No, neo-/v/ does nothing but complain about businesses not catering exclusively to them and refer to such business practices as evil.
See: gamergate, censorgate, Steam shitposting
>>320941154
Steam controller is only 50 bucks, you poorfag
>>320948261
it's 60 euro
that's double the price of a regular xbox wireless controller
>>320948250
Yeah, that's very much a new thing around here. /v/ used to be an uncritical industry cheerleader until recently.
>>320948709
Except EA has legitimately shitty business practices, actively destroys developers thanks to its revolving door management, and Origin actually does have spyware.
>>320948564
Cheapest new Xbone controller I have seen is 50 Euro
>>320947173
>duh, what is StarForce?
Are you literally retarded
>>320948839
>complaints about business practices are neo-/v/ AIDS unless I agree with them
>>320949056
Alright then, I'll bite.
When did Valve buy out a small, successful developer, run them into the ground with annualized sequels, then liquidate the company when it failed to produce golden eggs?
When did Valve take one of the most promising stars of a genre, then bend them over to create something catered directly to SJWs and faggots?
When did Valve outright say they would never do sales because it "devalues the IP"?
When did Valve start selling game-breaking DLC?
When did Valve dredge up a cult classic title and make it into a literal P2W mobile app?
Valve isn't entirely innocent, but if you're honestly going to equate their practices to EA, then you've clearly got your head up your own ass far enough to inspect your tonsils.
>>320949023
StarForce didn't have limited installs before Steam. Nothing did apart although online multiplayer game often had online activation using the CD key but that was only a factor for playing online.
As far I know, the first time a major publisher released a single player game with online activation was 2K and BioShock years after Half Life 2 and Steam were released.
>>320947535
>2001
Operation Flashpoint
Empire Earth
Black & White
Commandos 2
Return to Castle Wolfenstein
>2002
Battlefield 1942
Mafia 1
Warcraft 3
Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast
>2003
Call of Duty (!)
Freelancer
SimCity 4
Rise of Nations
C&C Generals
>2004
Doom 3
Far Cry
Rome Total War
Battlefield Vietnam
>2005
Battlefield 2
Silent Hunter 3
FEAR
Civilization 4
>2006
Prey
Battlefield 2142
Company of Heroes
>2007
Crysis
Supreme Commander
STALKER
World in Conflict
All of these were either PC exclusive or only had a console port made after they've been out on PC for months or years. They also had big publisher financing them.
How many publisher financed AAA PC exclusives have there been since Steam has ruined the PC market?
>>320949508
I didn't mean to equivocate Valve and EA. Personally, I have very few qualms with Valve and their business practices. I just find it annoying as hell when someone pretends as if bitching about the industry is somehow "neo-/v/", as if up until recently, the people around here had ever *not* been critical of publisher decisions (this includes the decisions of "lesser evils" like Capcom, Activion and even Sierra) and corporate fuck-ups, which is simply not true.
/v/ has been bitching about business practices (both vile ones and minor ones alike) since day fucking 1.
>>320949803
>How many publisher financed AAA PC exclusives have there been since Steam has ruined the PC market?
Publishers and devs dropped PC years before Steam "ruined" the PC market and they were very honest with their motivations for doing so; they felt piracy on the PC platform was at entirely unreasonable levels.
>>320950118
*equate
>>320950236
The post you replied to proves the opposite.
>>320950118
Nigger, specifics are important.
Bitching that EA swallows up developers, guts them, and spits them out is fine.
Bitching that Steam exists and has DRM is not.
Eat twenty dicks.
>>320950902
And we're back at
>>320949056
>muh-muh drm
Steam is not DRM. Steamworks is DRM and it's at the choice of the publisher to determine if it's used
>muh-muh offline mode
It works great. This isn't 2003. The only time shit can get fucked up is if you lose Internet MID update. Otherwise it's fine. Oh, and the other time it fucks up is if you force shut down your PC instead of letting the cloud files sync.
>muh-muh profits
Steam is providing a service through brand recognition. If some no name developer makes a game, a lot of times no one will notice. But if it's on the front page of steam? People WILL notice
>muh-muh subscription
Steam has never fucking just up and taken someone's games away unless they were doing something illegal like credit card fraud.
>muh-muh user agreement
Stop being a defiant teenager, push accept, and fucking go on with your day
>muh-muh no new gaems?
Who the fuck cares? Why are they obligated to make more games, you entitled shit.
Meanwhile I get a good interface for my games, friends, and everything else with tons of servers that have anti cheat software. The catalog is huge and the prices are cheap.
I fail to see the problem.
Then again, you're just being a contrarian fag.
Yeah man! Fight the corporation and the machine!
>>320941154
the answer is simple. just vote with your wallet. stop giving them money and they'll go away.
Honestly as far as free to play modern multiplayer games go I think valve has the most agreeable model. In csgo and Dota 2 both there are a lot of cosmetic items to spend money on, but they are all 100% aesthetic and everyone has the same gameplay experience regardless of how much money you spend. They still get money for extended support from people who want skins and compendiums and shit, but if you don't you aren't punished for it. Its a lot better than garbage like blizzard or riot where you are at a quantifiable disadvantage unless you shell out money.
>>320947806
The main problem with Walmart is how it treats employees not how it treats consumers so I think the comparison falls pretty flat
>>320949803
>How many publisher financed AAA PC exclusives have there been since Steam has ruined the PC market?
What does that have to do with Steam? Those games stopped happening because publishers realised that you could just make more money with multiplats 99 times out of 100 and it's cheaper to make homogenous games that are designed for like 3 platforms at the same time.
Consoles wouldn't even have any AAA exclusives either. The only reason they do is because they have huge corporations throwing money at devs to make the game exclusive.
>>320951625
>Who the fuck cares? Why are they obligated to make more games, you entitled shit.
Entitled is the word shills use to tell people ''WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE FOR EXPECTING GOOD THINGS FOR YOUR MONEY? SHUT THE FUCK UP AND GIVE US EVEN MORE MONEY''
>Stop being a defiant teenager, push accept, and fucking go on with your day
What a pathetic drone.
>>320951625
>IGNORE THIS
>IGNORE THAT
>WOW STOP COMPLAINING
>I fail to see what's the problem.
Jesus fucking christ, these ''people'' should just be executed.
>>320952013
Voting with your wallet isn't worth shit because the masses are retarded enough to fall for marketing all the time.
I voted with my wallet that I didn't want online passes, shitty outfit DLCs, microtransactions in full priced games and unfinished games, and I got exactly that.
Voting with your wallet is worth shit because most people are stupid.
>>320951625
Just like a trained dog.
Hope I find you on the street, I want a blowjob and I know you won't refuse, since you are trained to shallow everything.
>>320941154
If you don't like steam that's fine.
I like steam. My only gripe is that neither steam nor the publisher of a game state that they use denuvo.
You can meme as hard as you want, I still don't want it on my drive.
>>320953397
*tips fedora*
>>320953658
Who let you post that, mutt?
Hey OP you bitch.
If you don't want someone to have a monopoly on something, you need to make something that can compete.
Do you think Ubisoft's shitty malware-infested spy-filled "Uplay" should ever even be installed on your computer? (don't even fucking start with "Waah that was in the past everyone makes mistakes", Ubisoft games are fucking shit). Of course it fucking shouldn't, it's just another layer of DRM on top of steam with much worse deals.
GoG then? No, of course not. They deal in good OLD games, shit you've ever already played, and usually already bought on steam just to have your collection in one place. And since they never sell online/co-op games, there's no point in buying rather than pirating. Because they know their DRM free business methods means anyone who decides to buy rather than pirate does it because they want to support GoG for some reason. Why you would I don't know, I recall the owners trying to cheat the fuck out of people and even being involved in anti-gamergate shit at one point.
So where is the competitive platform? What is the alternative? If you go into a store there aren't any PC isles any more, the console owners probably found it too triggering so I imagine they feel greatly relieved that they can act like PC gaming doesn't exist despite being a larger market than all the consoles combined. And even if you DO find a few PC games in a store, what's inside? A steam activation code, because the devs don't want the additional hassle of printing CD's when the games need a 2gb additional patch download after installing anyway. There's no point in physical media any more. No one buys CD's with music, no one buys DVD's for films. They use spotify, itunes, netflix, or thousands of other methods of getting what they want. It's only console owners who are stuck in the dark ages with content on CD's which are absolutely useless and harmful to the environment in any case.
Should there be competition? Of course.
But no one has the balls.
>>320952975
You're literally not ignoring anything, and you have refused to point out an issue in my post.
>>320953397
>I won't refute the argument itself. Instead I'll just say something that confirms I'm gay.
Very telling.
>>320952782
>Expect good things for your money
Steam is fucking free. I don't know what you're on about.
>What a pathetic drone.
>still refuses to point out the flaw in my argument
All 3 of you are complete faggots.
Complaining about nothing.
Just a friendly reminder that when you buy a physical game, the EULA is printed inside and by installing the game (and owning it) you have agreed to it in full. If you're genuinely worried that someone might take away your games, you're obviously a piece of shit why deserves it. That kind of thing doesn't harm normal consumers.
>>320954575
Your argument is
>STOP COMPLAINING AND SHALLOW EVERYTHING
There's nothing to refute there, you are a drone, simple as that.
>>320954391
even if this is written kinda edgyish, he's on point.
you can't just sit there and bitch, steam has a monopoly for a reason, and they haven't really abused it too bad as far as i'm concerned considering what they COULD do. but there's literally no one else to put them in their place.
>>320954771
Because there's nothing to complain about.
I looked at all the complaints in the thread, put them all on one list, and then I refuted them.
You have done nothing of the sort.
Instead you keep posting about gay blowjobs. Try to contain your homolust for a second.
>>320954886
You didn't, you told everyone to stop complaining about everything and to be good little boys and accept everything.
Fuck off you mindless drone.
>>320941154
A single enterprise switch costs like $5k, server maintenance and upkeep is quite costsly, not even factoring in the cost of keeping the damn lights on.
We live in an age where console devs will look at an upcoming game and go; "Hey that almost looks fun, how much do I need to pay you to make that game exclusive to my console so people will buy it?".
And you bitch about steam?
PC gaming wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for steam, retard. Be thankful you are even getting those console ports.
>>320954956
Because there's nothing to complain about.
Point out ONE thing, and I'll refute it. Go.
You're a mad little faggot. And I mean that in the literal sense.
>>320955316
If consolefags didn't eat lukewarm shit right out of the asses of their corporate overlords with no thought or reasoning, we wouldn't be stuck with Call of Duty Extreme Future Online Warfare III½-2 being the norm for console games.
>>320941154
>abysmal customer support
How so?
STEAM SALES WHEN
>>320955651
They dont have any.
>>320948564
Poor and euro? You poor soul
>>320948564
North American price is 50 bucks
Source: i have one
>>320955146
But anon, exclusives are the only reason my chosen platform is better than your chosen platform and I will defend every single one of them to the death regardless of actual quality.
>>320955771
Returning games is fast and without any hassle, no questions asked.
Family and friend game sharing works a treat, the kids can have their own profile where they can't get to the PG-13 games.
Updates for all games queue up for your convenience, and if there is a problem with one you contact the devs/publisher via the steam discussions and help forums. Depending on the devs you get an answer within a day, like I did just yesterday when I needed to know how to enable full-screen in a game that didn't let me. Got an answer from a dev less than 20 minutes after.
So what is the problem?
>complains about steam having a monopoly
>uses microsoft windows
>>320956319
Except that Mac OSX and the gorillion flavors of Linux exist as viable alternatives.
Sure, they're both inferior in their own ways, but they still exist to provide some competition.
>>320956319
Microsoft on my PC, Microsoft on my console.
Praise Gates.
what's the alternative exactly?
not buying games at all?
>>320947107
>Valve was the one that created online authentication
Please stop you're embarrassing yourself.
I'd like to see some source for everything you've claimed.
>>320956627
Piracy
Or buying physical copies and applying pirate cracks so they don't have to use Steam.
