Everybody mad because of Corrin, but I want to talk balance.
Who shines the most in terms of changes in 1.1.3 for you?
I think Lucas got bumped up a few spots. I didn't even like playing him before but his grab is noticeably better. I picked him up after the patch since everybody was playing Cloud and I've been having a blast, pulling off really cool tricks that somehow I couldn't do before.
His Back-Air seems to have a bigger sweetspot so I've been spiking in style for the last 3 days, creating really hype moments.
I also wanted to ask you guys what I'm supposed to do after PK Freeze. I still can't figure out what the move is meant to do or what kind of setup I can do with it
>like eight patches in and not a single goddamn change
Fuck you too Sakurai. I'd take like a 1 percent jab buff or something at this point.
Bowser's new up-throw is a godsent.
>>320534267
You can PK Freeze into PK Thunder 2 or U Smash depending on position.
>>320534267
>Get under person frozen
>Charge up smash
>Send them into stratosphere
>Enjoy delicious salty tears
Lucas thread? Nice.
>>320534267
Use it at a distance to freeze foes. Instead of letting go of B do detonate it, you can just press A which is easier to time.
You can also use it to capitalize on foes who have long or predictable start up animations. If you're going against a charizard while you're at 100% or something and they're looking for a Flare Blitz, PK Freeze with more than a 75% charge beats it.
>>320534608
>>320534712
Nice! I'm going to try it out tonight, definitly will feed on the salt.
>>320534457
Actually she's in a good spot IMO. I play lotsa the Jiggs and a lot of people have been screaming OP since the last patch because she quite literally the shield destroyer.
Pound is a pretty good move and you can lock people in a Fair/Nair combo to death after a hit if you can read their DI.
Also she absolutely destroys the more grounded characters(Little Mac has 0 chance unless you whiff a Rest.)
She does struggle a lot against Marth, Lucina, Ike, Shulk and the Links because she can't approach them but she's surprisingly good against some of the Top Tiers. If you can read Fox's shine/firefox you can punish them hard.
She doesn't need a buff at our level if you want my 2 cents, and she makes for a really fun character against fast characters because it becomes all about the footsies.
>>320535474
Make her Upthrow and kill throw and I'll be fine with no other changes. Her grab game is pretty ass as it stands currently.
>>320535896
I agree with you but that ain't what the character is about. She's not supposed to be grounded.
Plus, please don't tell Melee fans but I always thought Up Throw>Up Air>Rest was a pretty faggy combo.
I think the balance team doesn't want Jiggs to be a character that sets up her Rest, but punishes with them instead
>>320536128
Giving Jiggs one solid grounded option isn't going to suddenly revamp her whole playstyle tho. I'm not looking for Rest combos either, that move is fine as is. I just want something solid off a grab; as it stands it nets her like nothing.
>>320536418
Agreed. The only one I found on some Fast Fallers(Falcon and Fox mainly) is D+throw to Pound.
Also try it at your own risk but I've had success with D+Throw to Sing
What about the Lord of Shadows guys? He got reworked apparently, any feedback?
>all those shulk buffs
Finally.
>>320538146
Elaborate, old pal desu
>>320538535
They just overall made him better, got rid of and lessened a lot of his lag.
Is regular samus cool now?
>>320537210
less landing lag on all his airials, and his nair is better. And some more super armor on his B, i believe.
so breddy gud desu
>>320534013
Bowser has a fucking Hoo-hah now, from virtually no throw follow-ups. Kills on most characters around 80-100%. Good stuff.
Bowsers new up-throw.
What are Link's kill moves supposed to be now anyways? Feels like I have way more trouble actually finishing people than in Brawl. His dash attack is nice but way too slow/vulnerable.
Maybe it's just cause the blast zones are so fucking huge on most stages, it takes forever for people to die from an up smash.
>>320534013
>His bair seems to have a bigger sweetspot
His bair didn't get buffed. However his grab was indeed buffed, first active frames was buffed by almost 15 frames, so now his pivot grab is the slowest, and he doesn't have a slow ass shit grab anymore.
His fair also lost about 3-4 frames of landing lag which is nice. His neutral air (the spin move) had its damage buffed from 1 damage per hit, to 2 damage per hit, which buffs his damage by quite a lot since it's one of his bread and butter moves.
Other than that, his ftilt was buffed a hitbox frame longer and a larger hitbox. So Lucas came really well out this patch. Seems like Bowser also got quite a buff since he now can do a "hoo hah" combo like Diddy Kong always used to do. That might push him up a few tiers just because of that. DK had a similiar buffs a few patches ago where his ding dong combo made him a lot more viable.
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes.425921/
>>320541048
usmash kills early, so does dsmash. Stilt and uptilt are also good at higher percentages. And upthrow still kills, but only around 150.
Also, gimping with your tools also works wonders
>>320537210
No amount of buffs will make Ganon not shit. Maybe a Hoo-Hah, I guess, worked pretty well for Bowser, but they're both still going to get rekt by anyone with fast attacks.
>>320534013
>Samus
>Zero buffs.
Whatever. Unless a Metroid releases on NX I'm not buying the damn thing machine. So thankfully I figure I'll be saving a good hundred bucks next gen.
Is there a change list anywhere?
Gotta see if mega boy or Martha git fixed or not
>>320534013
Mewtwo got fixed and Lucas got nice buffs.
The winners overall are ZSS and Sheik though since they are still one tier above the rest.
>>320542160
Realized it sounded like I meant ZSS got buffs and Samus got nothing. I meant zero as in none, not ZSS.
>>320542161
Martha's getting fixed in February but you have to rebuy her.
Shulk and mewtwo are definately going up a tier from this patch
>>320542337
That has me pissed too, but I also really wanna get kicked for pinning my opponent too long.
>>320542160
If Samus doesn't get serious love come February I'm going to be pissed. Fuck Sakurai and fuck anyone else on the time with a raging hatred for Metroid.
>Bowser U-Throw damage halfed per hit
Why
Shulks frame buffs
I would have liked reduced start up on his tilts but I'll take what I can get
>>320541776
>first active frames was buffed by almost 15 frames
lol no. It got buffed from 51 to 46 frames, the animation is just a lot faster now as well, matching the amount of frames better (before you could start acting while Lucas still seemed to be in the middle of the move; it was very deceptive). Also his pivot grab was always super slow in Smash 4, it was only faster in Brawl. Still overall great buff, Lucas desperately needs those grabs for both dthrow setups and uthrow/bthrow kills and getting punished for a whiff can be real bad
Shame my secondary man WFT got no changes in this patch, he could still use some improvements
>>320538146
landing lag on all aerials reduced by a couple frames, plus a bunch of moves got small damage buffs.
You're still not going to land any fucking moves without any move startup duration changes.
>>320542683
>time
>team
I need sleep.
>>320542686
U-throw is now a combo throw, that's why.
You can u-throw > u-air at like 80-100%, which is a true combo that kills the entire cast.
Still upset?
>>320542686
To become a combo throw.
Its godly now.
>>320543129
Huh. I suppose not.
I'm glad to see the ol' lizard is getting so much love from patches in that case.
He'll always be my main even if he's not very viable most of the timewhen my fucking friends all main S tier characters entirely by coincidence.
>none of my mains and subs got buffed
>>320543465
>That feel when all your favorites are bottom or low tier.
Samus, Charizard, Mewtwo, it's fucking suffering when my pals play ZSS or some shit. They're not even real serious or anything but upB at 70%? Gee I didn't want to stay on the stage anyway.
>>320543465
I've been shitting on people in FG just to test out the new up-throw change and you kill literally anyone on the 105% if you land a grab. It's that fucking good and I don't even main Bowser. Bowser mains are in joy right now.
>>320534013
>Everyone get cool buffs
>Meanwhile G&W get nerfed
Bowser buff is great though.
>>320538146
He still sucks
>tfw waiting for Mac to get a decent recovery
Ganondorf's Nair got buffed yet again with new hit boxes being stronger and Less landing lag
All his airs in genera got less landing lag
Fucking glorious
He's still low tier but still better in the air now
>>320543980
Mac would be OP if he had a better recovery though.
>>320543770
All the prominent teams cheese strats (G&W bucket, Villager Pocket, and PK boys' PSI Magnet healing) got nerfed. Good riddance.
>>320543980
Get gud
Don't let them throw you off
Use counter if they try to gimp you, it'll help recover than praying with Side B
>every single one of my mains got buffed
>Corrin got revealed and looks to be my final main
>mfw
Really, this game's going to ruin Smash Bros. for me, cause when one of my mains ends up getting cut, I'm gonna flip my shit like a game of Othello.
>>320543980
just pick a stage you can wall jump on, man. Also stop fucking up and getting launched offstage nigga, you've got some of the best frame data in the game + super armor on smashes
>>320543770
Helmet has super armor
Tilts have fast start up and zero lag
Fucking abuse it
>>320534013
PK FIRE
>PK FIRE
PK FIRE
>PK FIRE
PK FIRE
>PK FIRE
PK FIRE
>PK FIRE
PK FIRESeriously it's been a long time since I had a nice non-spam PK Fire Lucas match. What happened with those pretty cool Lucas mains who actually fight instead only spamming shit and grab? I just can't find them in FG anymore
>Lucas buffed
>Dorf buffed
>Kirby buffed
>Black Pit buffed
>Martha buffed
Today is a good day
>>320544685
I honestly don't use PK Fire much at all. I probably should.
I have more fun doing rushdowns with n-air. I'm not a very safe player.
>>320544685
ruined by Grab---> D-throw----> Nair x 3--->??
Corrins spear stab pause is going to be really fucking useful in doubles and team matches
Speaking of which, reminder that team battles are a lot more better to play and watch in Smash than singles
We need competitive focus to shift if we want to see more enjoyable sm4sh tournies
>>320544685
PK Fire isn't exactly a spammable move since an opponent that expects it will work around it, but I do throw it out whenever I think I can get away with it, and I mix it up with zair and empty hops etc.
I will be concerned for any Lucas player who doesn't use it much
>>320544685
I don't get the people who play anyone but Duck Hunt as pure projectile spam. I main Link and I'll never fucking understand all the morons who just stand at the edge of the stage spamming projectiles.
>>320544685
>For Glory
There's your problem
Tourney mode is better to use
>>320534013
You can use it against Cloud for easy edge guarding. Or just down smash his recovery. PK Freeze to PK thunder 2 is capable of killing at like 60 percent if you carry the opponent upward.
So is Bayonetta's stage gonna be legal?
It has no hazards
You have debris that appear as platforms
Debris acting as ceiling however will probably make it counter pick
>all these buffs
>none for Wario
>doesn't matter anyway because Sak-meister keeps buffing characters with bad matchups against Wario so I win more anyway as people start to use them
>>320544792
Same.
I've played enough Project M to know that YOLO Lucas is the only way to play.
>>320545158
A person who has seen the Freeze to PKT2 combo once in their life before will be able to mash their way out of freeze before you can set up a good angle for your thunder 100% of the time. Only retards who stay in the block of ice and don't airdodge out of PKT2's way when breaking out get caught by it. It's flashy and super satisfying when it works but it's not actually *good*.
If you catch someone offstage with Freeze, try to snipe the ice block with a PK Fire. They just might get KOed off the side.
>>320545475
What the hell? Wario is already high tier why would they buff him
>>320545235
It better fucking be so I can music counterpick people in tournament and get in the zone with some AFTER BURNER
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb-xNUPFq2s
Though I suppose that's always possible with the Omega version too
>all of the buffed characters and new characters still can't do shit to the Mario bros, shiek and zss
We needed nerfs as much as buffs
I know for glory anything can work but watch any high level tournament and you're stuck gonna see the same 4 characters
>>320546220
I'd prefer that they keep buffing everything until they're on the same level as the current top tier. That'd make the game faster overall.
>>320546373
That won't happen, sheik is retarded because she has no weakness other than being light. Someone would need to get an enormous level of frame buffs to even compete
>>320546373
You're gonna need a LOT of buffs for that. Like a lot lot.
>>320546220
The only real nerf Sheik needs is to her needles. Fuck a close combat combo fiend also having the best disruptive projectile in the game, how that shit continues to fly with Sora and Namco Bandai is beyond me. Not sure about ZSS but personally I wish they'd get rid of the invincibility frames on her down special, otherwise she's pretty fine. All characters below those two hardly need nerfs anyway, everyone else in the lower end should just keep getting buffs
>Little Mac's side b gets nerfed to the ground as a recovery.
>Its completely unsafe on opponents with low percentage or as a recovery move.
>It doesn't have projectile invulnerability, so it doesn't even always work for its purpose.
The move is integral to Little Mac and it doesn't even do its jobs well. I would be completely satisfied if it got a buff in even ONE regard.
>>320546486
>>320546503
Don't act like Sheik is anywhere near the dominance MK had in Brawl. Melee Fox is stronger as well.
>>320546373
True. Balance upwards, not downwards.
>>320537210
>super armor on reverse warlock punch
It's glorious.
>>320546486
>>320546503
Worry about nerfs when no one is considered like 5+ tiers below Shiek anymore.
>>320546768
Oh I agree, but since smash 4 is so reliant on the neutral sheik ends up being retarded
>>320546768
The only characters that stand a chance are the Mario bros, and that's only sort of.
She even cleanly beats zss who is the other member of the top 4
People keep theory crafting that ryu is going to go to the top but Mr R still can't win shit with him
I know it is pretty early, but do you think that Cloud will get nerfs or buffs?
I personally find him great as he is.
>>320541994
I want a hoo hah that gives you guaranteed hits with your stomp.
>>320546667
are you talking about the nerf from the older patch?
Because we need that need for Mac setups you casual.
>>320546942
He could use some buffs on Climmhazard's normal version. His recovery without Limit Break is Little Mac tier
>>320546942
He's got gimpy as fuck recovery and pretty weak grabs, that alone sets him way back. Still a solid character just not top.
Cloud still ends up really lame in my book because the best way to play him is ultra mega campy. Like smash4 in general is defensive but cloud takes it to the max, like rosalina level.
>>320547062
Yeah, the old one where his midair recovery was cut in half. What setups is it good for?
Are Marth's buffs even noticeable? It just looks like they upped the damage on his side b.
>>320547168
It's suffering being a Mac main, but that dtilt is godly, with low cool down and lots of hitstun to offer. I made this image out of screen caps to showcase many Mac combos.
Needs some touching up but works.
>>320547545
It's also suffering fighting mac to be fair. It's boring as shit. Literally camp at an edge as hard as you can.
It's not really fun for either party.
>>320546942
Cloud
+
great range and mobility and decent speed on moves, lends itself well to combos. Damage output is super nice and kills come well enough even without the aid of Limit Break.
-
super poor recovery without Limit Break, even worse than C.Falcon and nearly as bad as Little Mac (or maybe even shittier, considering Climhazzard is easier to intercept on the ledge than Rising Uppercut). He's also much like C.Falcon in being combo food with his fall speed and weight combined with no super fast startup aerials to interrupt combos with. No followups from throws.
He's probably a solid mid tier right now.
>>320544225
That only works against shitters though.
What's the point of a strategy if it only works on players that don't know what they're doing?
>>320544274
Doesn't help when every top tier has an awesome air game and grab game.
I mean, if Super Armor actually made characters viable, Bowser and Ganondorf wouldn't be near the bottom as well.
I feel like Charizard has always been slightly underrated. Not top five or anything silly but having three armored moves, a decent spacing tool in flame breath, a spike that's easy as all hell to land, and pretty good jabs and options off throws make it seem a bit better than the bottom tier rankings I usually see it landing at.
>>320534013
>Dedede will never be buffed
>>320547545
Neato, but does the side b actually set anything up, or is it just used as a followup?
>>320543720
At least your mains are acknowledged.
I mained Ice Climbers and PT in brawl and Squirtle in Project M and I use Mii Brawler in Smash 4, which I can't even use in For Glory and my friends are cunts and say it's cheating when I use it.at least bowser got buffed
>>320547835
Yeah, for a while I had been orbitating towards Shulk and Ike, and now Cloud seems to be a great middle ground for me.
I know that everyone and their mother are using Cloud right now, but I feel very comfortable with him.
>>320548159
Maybe dtilt/up tilt
Really it's best you stay offstage and have counter characters for bad matchups
>>320548209
I know that feel. I mained Ivysaur and Wolf in PM.
I mean Lucas and Mewtwo
I am happy about this patch
>>320548209
Not Smash, but I feel your pain, I mained Q back in in Third Strike. And then Rufus in SF4 and we all know he's never coming back.
>>320547835
>He's also much like C.Falcon in being combo food with his fall speed and weight combined with no super fast startup aerials to interrupt combos with.
>face a certain Shulk online
>literally get comboed in the air to at least 40% multiple times
>>320548137
I'm convinced Charizard is Zelda tier, and until I see someone perform well with it I have no reason to believe otherwise. A friend of mine switched from Char to Kirby which, while still not much better in terms of tiers, already improved his performance at locals.
>>320548278
Ike is probably the strongest out of the three characters you mentioned, he's been super legit ever since the buffs he got in the last patch.
>>320547804
If it wasn't fun for me I wouldn't main him anon
Mac relies on patience and capitalizing on your foes mistakes
He's a boxer
>>320544464
Literally does nothing against everyone except shitters.
>>320544247
>like a game of othello
Underrated post
>>320548634
The thing that pisses me off the most about LM is the fact that he's yet another boxing character who fucking blows in comparison to most of the cast.
Literally, the only thing I've seen where the boxing characters wasn't the weakest character in the show was "Kenichi: The world's strongest disciple."
That's it.
>Bowser got buffed
>Robin got buffed
>Mewtwo got buffed
>Kirby got buffed
>Shulk got buffed
>Lucas got buffed
Nice, makes me happy to see patches that buff the characters that need it. Could have done a a bit ore for Ganon and Marth, but those slight touches are appreciated.
Only thing this patch lacked was a Sheik nerf. Don't touch her neutral game, just make her recovery and projectile not fucking godlike to compensate.
Y'know what really scares me? The fact that Bayonetta and Corrin are probably gonna be the last balance patch. If either of them has some OP aspects, there's gonna be nothing to fix them
>>320548992
what about the british dude in street fighter
i style on niggas pretty hard with him but idk where he falls on the tier list
i still prefer to useZangiefandCammythough
>>320549238
Not really familiar with the boxing characters in SF but I think they're on the lower end of the spectrum.
>>320548992
I thought Little Mac was at least mid, if not mid high tier. He feels that way to me.
>>320548992
He blows in the air
He's pretty much a God on stage
>>320549353
I thought Balrog and Dudley were usually pretty solid?
>>320549459
He's basically that character whose good against characters who suck more than he does.
He gets stomped against any of the high/top tier characters.
>>320549353
>>320549659
Dudley is pretty high in SF III, and around mid in USF4, along with Balrog.
>>320549631
Yeah, perfect concept.
"Let's add a character in a platform game that can't jump."
Fucking brilliant.
>>320545082
I'm kinda a Duck Hunt main but I use projectiles as distraction to try connect combos
Same with Villager, I will never understand why people like spam Lloyd if isn't as distraction or always go to the stage edge and then spam shit
It's not fun playing safe in a fighting gamebtw I fucking love when I rekt people with Villager using the watering can
>>320545085
Sorry anon butI only play the shitty version
