Why the fuck did gamefreak continue this shitty trend of "add a weak move you cant delete" or "you need to make a cookie cutter team to be able to navigate shit".
HMs need to die.
HMs should just be tools or items at this point.
>>320063487
stop playing pokemon
you arent 12 anymore
>comes to v to complain about hm's
gees did you have any friends at all when you were 12?
I agree, make that shit an item or some shit.
Better yet, give your character a ditto partner or something that doesn't battle, it just learns moves for you, and nothing else.
They've been phasing them out since 5th gen. Or/As only have them since they're remakes.
in gen 5 you just need literally 1 hm to progress through the main story iirc
You can't delete HMs because there's a chance you may get stuck somewhere. I dont think its gamefreak's intention to troll
>>320063625
>come to v
>just to bully someone talking about HMs
damn son
Surf is the only HM that is good
>>320063806
waterfall, dive too
>>320063721
>unironically using the word troll
wew lad
>>320063721
This makes no sense because you can learn an HM as many times as you want.
>>320063487
Too bad this is only one of many problems in Pokemon games. The encouragement to use only 1 pokemon for the entirety of the game combined with slow menus is what turns me off to them.
I don't see why you didn't just have the choice for a pokemon to be able to use the HM without learning it. It makes no sense that I have a fucking bird that cant fly and a fish that can't swim.
>>320064115
I dont think you can get by with one poke in the later games
>>320063721
I'm pretty sure there's a certain person in town that can delete TM moves though senpai.
I agree TM's need to be on a seperate menu though. Carrying two pokeymans that are useless in battle is retarded. Also pissed thatscyther can't learn fly
>>320063487
I never got why they removed items like the surfboard from the betas to make HMs
>>320063487
Makes speedruns more interesting with catching HM slaves.
>>320063487
The real questions that need answering are why did gamefreak start making pokemon in shitty 3D graphics and why did gamefreak add mega evolutions the 2D graphics were classic and unique to pokemon.
>>320064320
Scizor's wings also aren't used like normal wings according to its BLOG entry
BUT WHY? 2 HEAVY?
In-game teams are useless in the long run anyways, putting HM's on them isn't that much of a loss, Cut is pretty much the only one with no battle utility.
Though they should have it so that you don't need to actually teach the move, just a Pokemon that can learn it at the least.
>>320064315
You can get by, though Gen V has its EXP scaling and Gen VI has its revamped EXP Share both to encourage actually using at least a full team if not more.
>>320063721
>You can't delete HMs
Kek
>>320064579
most of the digivolutions arent even viable
>>320064315
It becomes more encouraged later in the game because of the potential to use x-items and the fact that you start to run out of trainers (wild pokemon are just garbage to grind on). You are only gimping yourself if you train multiple pokemon unless you want to put in a LOT of extra time (in an already slow game full of mostly 1v1 uninteresting battles). Also, you start getting a bunch of high level legendaries, so why bother training regular pokemon?
>>320064115
>>320064320
What I meant was say OP was surfing in the middle of the sea and his pokemon learnt a new move. He replaces surf with the new move. Now his pokemon doesnt know how to surf. He will drown and die.
>>320064668
You can use x items if you have multiple pokemon.
>>320064115
You can learn them as many times as you want, but trying to release a Pokemon that knows an HM makes it not be released with the excuse "it came back because it was worried about you".
>>320064661
>I lack basic reading comprehension and contextual reading skills: the post
>>320064845
Admitting is the first step sonny
>there is no Pokemon game that gives you items that act as HMs in late/post-game
Sure love having to deal with a Pokemon keep Strength and Cut around, Gamefreak.
>>320063487
>not choosing one Pokemon for every HM, each trained to harbor an unparalleled mastery over their respective skill
Step it up senpai.
Step it up senpai.
>>320064832
You can, but why would you? The max potential is lower on a lower level pokemon since you can only stack x-items so many times. You wouldn't want to waste so much money and time buffing a bunch of pokemon as opposed to just one (and switching removes x-item buffs). You have a higher chance of being one hit especially by crits while powering up with weaker pokemon.
>>320064716
Would it really be that hard for them to prevent surf from being unlearned while swimming?
>>320063721
There's ways around it. Having a permanent escape rope item if the player doesn't have necessary HMs would be easy to implement. Just check what HMs the player owns, check if any of the current pokemon can learn it, and if they can't, the escape rope appears in your inventory.
HMs should be rebuilt from the ground up anyway
>>320065028
fuck that, I want an all normal team or an all partial psychic team
fucking faggot bidoof just sitting in my roster doing nothing
>>320064936
you can't overwrite HMs with a new move without having to take a 5 minute detour just to remove an HM
he's right and his diction isn't even far enough removed from his meaning that you can call him wrong
>>320063806
Waterfall.
Fly is decent
Strength/Rock Climb is okay-ish.
>>320063487
They stopped in Gen 5. Then it was brought back.
>>320063983
>>320065797
no they aren't, only surf and waterfall have any competitive merit
Hoenn was so stupid with surf/dive/waterfall.
Sinnoh somehow managed to be even more fucking retarded making me need to bring strength/rock climb/surf/rock smash into mt coronet. I bet 90% of people who beat the champ in gen 4 had a bibarel in their party.
>>320066085
>competitive
>HMs are now Key items
>the moves are now justmoves without their HM abilities
Why is this so hard for GF
>>320066193
>tfw Pickup was nerfed in Emerald and later
>tfw not having 30 rare candies for the elite 4
>>320066275
what the fuck other metric did that anon mean by "surf is the only HM that is good?" Unless I'm mistaken and he's talking about contests, he's talking about competitive viability
>>320065273
Switching in an HM slave as a sacrifice is a viable tactic.
>>320066501
like decent power?
>>320066531
i've actually done that today, felt dumb though
>>320066501
Maybe just playing the game?
Cut is a fucking awful move and fly is annoying because it takes two turns.
Strength isn't bad though.
>>320066501
What HM have to do with competitive even?
Their restrictions are only true for the story, for competitive they are no different from other moves.
>>320066501
Not just competitive, it's probably the best water type move next to hydro pump
>>320063721
how are you gonna get stuck? You can just re-teach them.
>>320066641
>like decent power?
that's one part of the competitive viability, einstein. Giga impact has beyond decent power, but it's still a shit move
>>320066684
that's still competitive viability, just PvE rather than PvP. And strength may not be bad, but it's still mediocre and when compared to the opportunity cost of using a better move, it might as well be bad.
>>320066732
don't ask me, ask the anon who first said "Surf is the only HM that is good." Using my brain, I cleverly deduced that he meant that surf is the only HM that is good to use in battle. Alongside waterfall, this is true.
>>320067097
The only move that's just better than strength is return, and return isn't easy to use while playing the game.
>>320067192
body slam, fool
>low distribution
using normal STAB is stupid in the first place, 2x ice punch does more than 1.5x strength
going for neutral coverage is a suboptimal strategy, whether playing MP or going through the campaign, and while strength may be "the best of what you have available," it's still not good
>>320067054
>hydro pump
>surf
The actual competitive water move is scald by the way. Hydro pump is awful for accuracy and 30% chance to burn is too good to pass up.
>>320067364
>best of what you have available
>not good
What.
Usually I have a pokemon with very specialized moves learn strength for some balance just in case something resists their real attacks.
>>320067623
The chance to burn doesnt matter if you can OHKO instead. Scald is only good for defense.
>>320067623
scald is by far and away more popular but certain mons and sets need surf or hydro pump over scald to hit important damage thresholds
>>320067706
that's a bad strat, m8. best of what you have available not being good is an almost self-evident truth. Using a knife against a million lions is better than you're fists but you're not standing much better off
>>320063487
I've been saying for several generations that instead of just being able to learn 4 moves, it should be upped to 6 or 8.
You can still only use 4 in battle, but you can have a few in reserve that you can either switch to active at a Pokécentre or just keep them there.
That way, you can have a water Pokémon that knows surf, waterfall and dive without having to compromise on battle prowess.
>>320067097
>that's still competitive viability, just PvE rather than PvP.
Not a single person but you uses competitive in that way.
>>320067929
>20 less damage than the "tournament viable" move that everyone uses
>has no place in gameplay
Fuck I feel like next you are going to argue about how water gun is a trash move.
>>320063625
slash symbol too hard to type on your phone?
>>320068103
I would support this but I feel like Nintendo would think it's too complex for kids or some shit.
Also would kind of trivialize PP. Though honestly PP is just annoying, you almost never run out of PP in the course of one fight. It's just a way to force you back to a Pokemon center.
>>320068103
Actually you could just remove the combat part of HMs entirely. Any pokemon capable of using an HM ability could do so as soon as you got the badge for it.
>>320068179
what the fuck? how is competitive not "me vs that guy?" Did I miss the memo where competitive now means co-op or something? How am I wrong? And just because the very mention of the term competitive became a buzzword on /vp/ for all the virlisifags to cover their ears and spout smogon h8 doesn't mean competitive has a strict definition and can't be used in more than one context
>>320068236
am I being trolled? At no point in the game would I call water gun a good move, when your starter learns it, it's still barely 3 shotting the other mons of the same level
>>320068752
I knew it.
>>320068932
okay, tell me how water gun is good
>>320069001
water gun is the best gun move in the game.
>>320068752
Competitive always means "You VS another person". The environment is not a person.
>>320068932
What are you even arguing? 40 power with no secondary effect, of course it's shit. Yeah you'll use it when that's all your Squirtle knows, but you'll drop it as soon as a different water move becomes available.
>>320068752
>how is competitive not "me vs that guy?"
Your delusion runs so deep that you consider electrical signals in a game cartridge to be real people?
>>320069207
bullet seed
>>320069406
>>320069207
Gunk shot.
>>320069406
shit move, doesn't mention guns
fuck off shill
>>320068236
>>320068752
>>320069001
It's not exactly a good move, but it's far from bad, and necessary for the flow of the game. I wouldn't expect my starting level 5 Totodile to know Surf or Hydro Pump.
>>320063625
Sounds like you're just mad you've never had anyone to play pokemans with.
>>320069574
This.
>>320069247
>>320069401
it's a simulation of a person, unless you win pokemon battles vs the cpu by showing them your penis on the gameboy camera, you do everything you do vs. another human, excepting for limitations of the AI which aren't too different from adapting your strategies to your retarded friend who doesn't know what evs are
you are in competition with the AI, please explain to me how that does not constitute competition
>>320069001
>9001
>there are several people currently arguing over whether or not water gun is a good move in pokemon
>>320069778
>doesn't want to argue about mechanics in a children's game
Why do you hate fun?
>>320063487
they aren't all bad things like fly and surf are pretty cool but everything else needs to be removed.
>>320069778
>there are several people talking about vidya
fucking neovee
>>320063487
Remember in Black/White how they set it up that HMs are only used for secret alternate paths and they're not really needed to progress through the story?
And then X/Y came out and they for some reason took a step backwards? I hate these shitheads.
>>320069778
I know, isn't it fun?
>>320069574
>>320069647
as I said earlier, it's the best of what you have available, it's still shit in the absolute sense and basing your evaluation of it entirely in a hyperspecific situation based on relativist metric is foolish. A level 5 machop is the bee's knees if you're fighting lance in RBG but to take that situation, apply "good" to your evaluation of machops, and make a general and non-specific statement like "man, machop is so fucking good" and not expect people to pounce on your dunce train of logic is ridiculous
>>320063487
They should just give certain Pokemon the inherent ability to swim/fly/push rocks/whatever, but still lock the ability to do so behind the badges.
That way you don't need to waste moveslots with HMs, you can't get stuck, and you still can't sequence break.
>>320065108
Yes, because the game doesn't necessarily know that the pokemon you used in battle is the one you're surfing on, nor does it know whether you have another Pokemon with Surf. And it is a lot more hassle to allow you to change it than not.
>>320070057
When the fuck did the poke anime look half-way good? And I didn't play x/y but that sounds fucking gay.
I am currently playing soulsilver and I didn't remember there being this many HMs.
Cut/Rock smash/Whirlpool are so shit. Cut not that necessary but rocksmash pretty necessary.
I actually ended up with TWO HM slaves.
Surf and Waterfall (for physical Water Pokémon, such as Gyarados) are the only good HMs for competitive play.
>>320069924
>>320070001
>>320070114
Fine. Water Gun is a fine move, there's nothing wrong with it as it's necessary for your starter pokemon to have a move that aligns with their type at a low level. Ember is an alright move too. However, Vine Whip is not a good move. It serves the same purpose as the other two but the idea of the attack is all wrong. If you whipped a fish with a vine, there is no reason why it would ever do more damage to the fish than a regular whip would. This is arguably not just an issue with Vine Whip, but with the "Grass" type itself.
>>320070057
>Remember in Black/White how they set it up that HMs are only used for secret alternate paths and they're not really needed to progress through the story?
This didn't happen at all.
>>320070468
>If you whipped a fish with a vine, there is no reason why it would ever do more damage to the fish than a regular whip would
why the fuck was this so fucking funny
>lets remove shit and casualize the games more
fuck right off you bunch of triple niggers
the biggest problems with HM are that there are like 3 or 4 water type moves which actually make it hard to fit them all o a single team.
other than you can easily fit the required ones on a team are most are perfectly usable moves for an ingame run
>>320070468
You're right, Pokemon should be more realistic.
Let's just make everything super-effective. After all, getting immolated by a flamethrower, struck by lightning, getting frozen solid and getting hit by a fucking earthquake are all lethal as fuck, right?
>>320070124
>it's still shit in the absolute sense and basing your evaluation of it entirely in a hyperspecific situation based on relativist metric is foolish
What are you even on about anymore? It's like you're just trying to sound smart now.
It's a good move because it's worth using at the point in the game where you get it. Yes, it stops being useful once you learn better moves, but that's half the point of Pokemon to begin with, to train them up and have them improve. It's not like Poison Sting or String Shot where it's NEVER good at ANY point. And no shit it's going to be trash in competitive, because everyone's gonna be rocking level 100s with great stats and an endgame movepool.
It's like say the Fire spell in Final Fantasy is shit because it eventually turns into Fira and Firaga. It's stupid.
>>320070384
The XY anime is actually showing signs of a budget
I don't get it either. Honestly, it's one of my biggest turn-offs whenever I consider getting back into pokemon. I get excited over the idea of having a badass 6 pokemon team that are all equally viable, but then I remember I'm going to need a couple HM slaves.
>>320070057
no? they are still roadblocks that artificially hamper your progress, surf and waterfall are still needed to progress, and while there's nothing wrong with the concept of roadblocks, (on the contrary, they are a good thing to set pacing and give direction), when they are poorly implemented as has been the case with every pokemon game since R/G, and when the franchise has persisted for decades and not a finger has been lifted to change their horrible implementation of said roadblocks, that's when there's a problem.
BW didn't do shit to alleviate the annoyance of roadblocks that persist after you pass them
They should make pokemon that can use HMs able to use them outside of battle without knowing them.
So a Scyther can cut afucking tree without being taught how to utilize it in battle and one solid water type giving you access to ever water HM move. Then they could keep the using your pokemon to progress aspect without it bogging down your movepools.
>>320071028
shit, that looks even better
>>320070057
>Remember in Black/White how they set it up that HMs are only used for secret alternate paths and they're not really needed to progress through the story?
Uh, no?
I remember Rock Climb being used to find a Rare Candy, that's about it. I think you're remembering this incorrectly.
>>320070957
that's what I just fucking said, dipshit. Machop is good against lance's stupid AI, but making a blanket statement like "machop is good" is retarded. Similarly, Water gun is good against low level mons when you don't have the superior options available to you but making a blanket statement like "water gun is good" is retarded. How is that hard to grasp?
If you don't want people to call out retarded vague statement like x is good when it is only circumstantially useful, you ought to include the specific circumstance in which it is
and Fire vs. Fira and Firaga is an entirely different can of worms, FF games have MP and casting time constraints which pokemon does not (it has PP but the scale of PP being an issue vs MP being or cast speed being an issue in FF) makes Fire viable in many instances whereas water gun is viable only in one specific instance
>>320070756
>Removing HMs is casualizing the games
What the fuck
There's still some bullshit here or there, like
Pikachuusing Iron Tail to climb a Draco Meteorbut battles are much more entertaining to watch and there's barely any of that speed lining shit. In fact, I don't think there's been any speed lining at all.
>>320070756
>casualize
>a casual game
yeah what?
>>320071727
for >>320071185
fuck
>>320070756
Fixing a retarded system isn't casualizing the games. Any retard can figure out the HM system, that doesn't make it any less flawed. No one quit a Pokemon game because of the HMs, it's just a stupid shitty system you have to put up with that limits your ability to make a unique team of Pokemon, which is one of the main draws of the series.
>>320071727
holy shit whats this from
but then again i bet the rest of this movie is like a bunch of a bullshit
>>320068352
Well, you'd have to go to a Pokécenter to switch moves around. You wouldn't be able to do it mid-battle or out in the field.
PPs just there to stop people spamming OP attacks.
>>320068626
Another viable solution, but I also hate having to forget a good move to learn a new one. Being able to have a few in reserve means you could also experiment with builds more easily.
>>320071962
It's from the Mega Evolution special
Starring a guy named Alain and his Megazard X
There's only 4 I think right now but there's another one coming soon.It takes place in the same universe as Ash but he's not the MC of it so it's okay
>>320072038
How about fucking POKE TOOLS that do the fucking job for you. No fucking around. If thats too simplistic, have it so you can only carry a couple tools at once or make the obstacle more than just a static sprite that waits to get fucked in the ass.
>>320063487
Having to teach a bird to fly or a fish to swim is what is really wrong with HMs.
Any Pokemon strong enough to push boulders shouldn't need to be taught so. Very few HMs can be justified.
>>320072321
Nigga you can say the same for half the moves in the fucking game.
>>320071565
How is it hard to grasp that a move being useful makes it good? How is the first fucking third of the game "circumstantial"? How is a move evolving into something better, like the Fire series of spells, different from learning new moves like Water Pulse or Surf, which do the same thing as Water Gun, only better? Jeez, why does Squirtle even learn Water Gun at all if it's so shitty? God, I can't think of why anyone would use a move with a decent amount of power, 100 accuracy, and the benefit of being special and Water typed. Why did GF even bother to put it in?
Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point? Because, not gonna lie, I think I'd rather actually go play video games than get into a pointless shitpost war. It's shocking, I know, but that's where this conversation is going.
>>320071732
Look at bethesda games.
>>320072578
yeah but HMs are worth removing
>>320072704
Yes
>>320072518
>I think I'd rather actually go play video games than get into a pointless shitpost war. It's shocking, I know, but that's where this conversation is going.
>>320073061
Where I am right now is precisely why I want to go play video games and havefun.
>>320072882
>implying im full of shit
>>320072518
No, I'm not just arguing for the sake of arguing so fuck off if you're just gonna write this off with that
How does a move being useful for a third of the game and absolute shit for 2/3s of the game make you think that calling it good is right? And again, as I've said earlier, Fire vs. Firaga is different because in many FF games you don't have move slots, you can choose whether to use Fire or Fira at anytime, whereas with pokemon it's always one or the other, unless you want to have surf and water gun on the same mon, which if you ever think that's a good idea, you got brain problems. And GF is notorious for there terrible balancing, just because a pokemon learns a move doesn't mean it's useful. Why did GF bother to put splash in the game?
>>320070057
I remember when B2W2 required you to keep cut around all the way to VICTORY ROAD
>>320073425
splash is a lore move and removing it would take away from the story
>>320064716
Surf is an amazing attack and probably the only viable battle HM.
>>320073647
Yeah? Then how come when I teach it to my level 20 squirtle he dies to lance before even having a chance to use it?
>>320070756
Removing HMs doesn't casualize the game, it's a dumb, archaic system that doesn't improve the game in anyway. Here's how you fix HMs:
>remove them
>replace them with key items
>Eg. bird saddle, allows you to fly as long as you have a pokemon in the party that is capable of flying, claw sharpener, allows you to cut down trees as long as there is a pokemon in the party capable of using cut
>still have to build a balanced team that can get past these obstacles, no longer have to brandish your pokemon with awful moves or kick one out in favor of a HM slave
>repurpose all existing HM moves as regular TMs
pls hire me miyamoto
>>320073425
You fucking had me fooled, then.
Because it's designed that way. Why would you use Fire if you had access to Firaga? By the time you have access to it, you're practically swimming in MP and there's not reason NOT to. Same with moves like Water Gun. You're obviously going to move on to a better move because you have access to it, but that doesn't mean the old move didn't function or serve its purpose. Comparatively shit doesn't mean always shit, like with moves such as Growl or Splash.
Are we using two different dictionaries for the word "shit" or something? Because, last time I checked, it, in this context, meant that you should never ever use it, period, and had no viable use whatsoever.
>>320073564
Honestly laughed way too hard at this.
>>320073904
>squirtle
>level 20
You almost had me, champ.
>>320073959
Don't remove HM's, just let them be deleted
>>320073564
that's part of my point, though. Moves exist beyond their absolute usefulness in battle, water gun is a shit move that is only good for the very early game, and this whole argument started because anon said "Fuck I feel like next you are going to argue about how water gun is a trash move"
which it is, and then another anon said "it's far from bad"
It is trash and it is bad in 99% of circumstances, and if you didn't want me to call it trash and bad, you should've put an asterisk saying at the start of the game, and I know the anon I assume to be you said it's necessary for the flow of the game but it's still a bad move in all but that circumstance
>>320069678
>it's a simulation of a person
If it were a simulation of a person it would actually have some brains.
>>320074074
>why would you use fire if you had access to firaga?
firaga takes longer to cast, there is a reason not to, whether you can't afford to sit through the casting because you'll die in game or because you're grindan and don't want to watch the animation, there is still reason to not use firaga over fire
Water gun did serve it's purpose, it served you well, even, but it's still shit for everything beyond that. And you didn't call it comparatively shit, you called it "far from bad," so of course I'll take issue with that
>>320074162
>water gun = splash because you eventually get better moves
Okay.
You may want to try a giant asterisk yourself, since you seem to be arguing against it in fucking tourney play and don't know how percentages work.
>>320074531
It depends on the game. Most of the older games had it cast in the same turn/amount of time it did as Fire, only it costs more MP. Not only that, you can hit more enemies with it (also depending on the game), making it much more essential for griding or simply going through an area.
>Water gun did serve it's purpose, it served you well, even, but it's still shit for everything beyond that
Exactly. How does that make it a bad move entirely?
>And you didn't call it comparatively shit, you called it "far from bad," so of course I'll take issue with that
Now you're just arguing semantics. I know what I said, and I stand by both.
>>320074074
>Why would you use Fire if you had access to Firaga?
Depends on the game
So
>Higher MP cost even when "swimming" in it
>Firaga is at an extremely lower level compared to Fire so damage is pitiful in comparison
>takes longer to execute
>>320075036
it's a bad move the majority of the time, that's why I take issue with you calling it far from bad
I don't understand how you can say something that is a right piece of shit except in one part of the game anything else
>>320075296
Or, it can be just a straight upgrade, again depending on the game.
I probably could've thought up a better analogy, but I was blinded by neckbeard rage and just said the first thing that came to mind.
>>320075568
>Or, it can be just a straight upgrade, again depending on the game.
It very rarely is at first. Unless you're playing something like Four Warriors of Light.
no point to teach water gun when surf is better in every way, unless it's for important type coverage and for whatever reason water gun is the strongest move that pkmn can learn
>>320073647
waterfall
defog
>>320075764
Moves need a revamp, make 50 Attack/100 Accuracy the baseline and work from there. Higher attack means a lower accuracy, or lower attack moves have added effects. PP don't mean shit when a pokecenter or whatever is just a Fly/Teleport away.
>>320063762
>>320063625
>Comes to /v/
>Just to forget the existence of the / symbol
>>320063487
HMs aren't needed to story progression since Gen V
>>320072165
>lemme just casually burn down half this forest
>tfw i bought Pokemon Y out of nostalgia and dropped it after the first badge
>>320070639
Dang, I haven't seen a King Dedede Drooling While Eating clock in a while. Is that one authentic?
>>320078409
yeah
>>320076446
mattered more in gen 1, some of the caves were very lengthy with high encounter rates / padded heavily with trainer battles
about the second part... fine as is. some moves should probably be more accurate (like fire / ice / thunder fang & rock slide, why have less than perfect base accuracy when flamethrower / ice beam / thunderbolt do and are much stronger)
