With the impending release of Final Fantasy 7 and its combat redesign, I felt that now, more than ever, is a good time to have this discussion.
Is Turn-Based style games simply a relic of the past, used only because of hardware limitations, and as such something that we should just dump to the past.
Or is it something that should be remembered and cherished, as a more classic style of gaming, without a large focus on overly flashy graphics and action-y game-play.
I'm in the crowd for keeping turn-based alive, but I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on all of it.
>>320035880
Definitely no
Turn based RPGs were always an approximation. They were never intended as a final form. Real time is objectively superior, which is why virtually the entire market has moved to it. It's an outdated system for an era that no longer exists, when hardware limitations would not have allowed for the kind of action they were really trying to display.
>>320035880
No desu senpai
>>320036067
real time RPGS always existed senpai-sama sorry to burst your bubble
>>320035880
Turn-based was better than every game trying to be "the next open world epic experience".
Personally I can't stand the fact that almost all JRPGs these days are not turn based. I do not play JRPGs to have challenging game play. I play them to enjoy a comfy ass experience at my own pace; enjoying the stories and character interactions. When I want to play combat intensive games I'll go play a shooter or something. I don't want to mix the two together for any reason.
>Is Turn-Based style games simply a relic of the past, used only because of hardware limitations
Chess, several dozen board games, and tabletop games are still turn based.
How anyone can ask these kinds of questions is beyond me.
>>320035880
Turn based RPGs are a relic of the past. Might as well be point and click adventure games
Turn based is fine when it's like the super mario rpg's or Undertale where you can avoid taking damage and what not.
>>320036315
I disagree with you, I would rather have good stories and good gameplay, I don't understand why they have to be separate.
>>320035880
there is a huge difference between atb and turn based
I like taking my time with decisions, I didn't even like ATB
>>320036315
>enjoying the stories and character interactions
Pleb. Leveling up and getting stronger is much more satisfying than any video game story.
>>320035880
final faggotry is awful for the most part, and it has nothing to do with being turn based. Neptunia rebirth, hard west and the newer x-com games have taught me that turn based can be pretty cool
>>320036394
>using chess and board games as an argument
No but americunt have the attention span of a fruit fly and everything has to appeal to them and as such everything will turn into an actiony sandbox game
>>320036315
This I feel is probably the best reason to keep it alive, I do enjoy Turn-based gameplay, but I think that the slower pace and style of the game-play allows more fleshed out stories and better character interactions, I think a few action games have done this well, but the vast majority do not.
>>320036394
I ask it in the interest of fairness. It would be easy to make a thread simply saying ALL JRPGS WITHOUT tURN BASED GAMEPLAY ARE GARBAGE, THIS IS WHY IM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG. I'd like to actually generate some meaningful discussion on the topic.
>>320036492
ATB, I'll admit is one style I'm more familiar with and like more, but it's not such a departure to simply call them both Turn based for the functions of this discussion.
>>320036409
Care to elaborate more on that?
Undertale is a turn based game and is currently at least 4th in a best game ever contest with thousands of votes.
>>320036619
>
>>320036783
But it does very little to prove that the Turnbased genre is alive nor dead, it's simply a game that could probably be carried on its story merits alone.
>>320036674
If that's true then why do more and more Japanese games that are not being imported, continue to ditch Turn based style? This is where you can argue that Turn-based is running its course, even in the land it was popularized in.
>>320036783
I just made a contest and Big Rigs won. Of course, I was the only voter, but the poll you reference probably has about the same percentage of the entire playerbase of games
>>320035880
Turn-based as in the OP example, where's it's a straight ABCDEF turn order for the battle of PCs/enemies and a simple scroll menu of choices is dated as fuck. I played literally hundreds of hours of games like that as a kid and I can't do it anymore. So yeah, "turn-based" in that sense is a thing of the past.
However, innovations on that formula, even if minor, make that gameplay a lot more viable and less repetitive. Example; I find Super Mario RPG a lot more replayable than say FFIV, just on the merits of Timed Hits breaking up the combat even to the minor degree that they do.
I'd say it's not impossible to make a turn based RPG and have it be fun, not by any means. But the only thing that allows me to replaying stuff like the SNES era FF games is nostalgia, because the gameplay is dated..
>>320036315
RPGs have been ruined by the internet. Certainly there were many DQ inspired examples that are storyless grindfests, but a good RPG should balance exploration, managing your characters to increase strength either through time-investment or limited resources like buying a new, expensive weapon, and story development.
Being able to look up anything in an RPG ruins the exploration, makes the gameplay all about min-maxing, and the story is usually the only thing left over.
ARPGs often sacrifice story and exploration to make the gameplay fast, fluid, and "cool", but lacking substance. This kind of gameplay doesn't bode well towards exploration and a well placed story, and developers often lack the sense to mix them together well. ARPGs are often too frantic to have a good amount of strategy or technique besides attacking.
>>320037081
>it's a straight ABCDEF turn order for the battle of PCs/enemies and a simple scroll menu of choices is dated as fuck
Why?
>>320036020
The fact you think that picture implies that Final Fantasy tier turn based combat has the same amount of depth and strategy as chess is kind of infuriating anon. Do you maybe wanna build on your answer and try to prove why turn based systems aren't an antique of the past which only existed due to technical limitations, and how they're better than real time battles?
>>320035880
No, there is still a large audience for turn-based combat. Hence why party-based RPG are still a thing.
AAA are going away from turnbased combat to a more action approach because that's what the lowest common denominator like. Quick shallow gratification.
It's easier to mash X for a light, Y for heavy, and then B to kill than planning your attack, buffing and debuffing, and exploiting weakness.
>>320035880
I want to see turn based games evolve into simultaneous turns.
Like, imagine Panzer General but with simultaneous turns. Combat occurs in sequence with flanking units attacking first and repeated attacks on a single unit in that turn's action sequence wearing them down, even simultaneous attacks from multiple units at a time to overwhelm a previously impregnable force so long as you can time the attacks right.
Turn 1 Player 1 then Turn 2 Player 2 has always given Player 1 an unfair advantage. Simultaneous turns would completely eradicate that advantage. RPGs already solved the turn based problem with action meters like in Chrono Trigger or the later Final Fantasy's. I love turn based because it puts much more emphasis on long term strategy than rapid micro management.
>>320035880
The kind of turn-based combat you find in old JRPGs like FF7 is just shit tbqhwyfam, it's not outdated, it was always shit. It has the potential to be god, but I can name maybe two games total that were well-balanced enough to not make every random encounter a pointless fucking slog.
In most old JRPGs it's only okay during boss fights since all other fights are rarely anything other than trivial.
>>320037403
>RPGs already solved the turn based problem with action meters like in Chrono Trigger or the later Final Fantasy's
ATB is trash and worse than almost every other purely turn based system.
>>320037309
Because it is boring as hell and even simple things (a la timed hits, as I pointed out) make it more bearable.
>>320037693
Could you try again without assuming your opinion is a fact?
>>320036315
the sad part is that most action JRPGs aren't challenging at all, sometimes easier
The problem with Square's ARPGs is that they have combat in the same place as the map location. This means that an elaborately designed map will get in your way as you try to buttonmash the attack button to kill the enemies, opposed to something like Tales where you fight in a more traditional "battle arena" and have better controls.
Turn based is great. Anyone complaining that it's not realistic enough doesn't play games for the strategy or RPGs for the actual RPG elements.
It simply places more focus on how well you've prepared your team and strategies, rather than technical skill. Looking at any game with real time action based combat, the focus on technical skill always devalues the RPG elements.
Just from the last few years, games like Divinity OS, Fire Emblem Awakening, Mario RPGs, and the Xcom reboots prove the style works really well. Sadly too many people equate turn based with traditional Dragon Quest combat and think that's all it is.
If it was outdated, we wouldn't still be playing chess, golf, baseball, cricket, and so on.
>>320037003
What japanese game that aren't being imported are you speaking of?
Because the last time i checked japan only game looked like this
>>320038248
That's getting localized.
>>320035880
I like turn based combat, but Final Fantasy was never that great. All it had going for it was a cool class system which most games in the franchise don't even utilize. Thankfully Bravely Default does what's cool about the class system and gives the combat a really cool gimmick.
South Park was a turn-based RPG and it was pretty solid. People justify hating FF7's combat because they think the ATB was shit, but it's more the fact that FF7 is very unbalanced, due to limits, certain materia, and the fact that the game is so well known that osmosis of knowledge has made it easy to prepare, for the most part. Another problem is that animations are often slow even with ATB speed turned up, so battles can often take too long just from enemies. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with FF7's battle system, and they definitely could have improved it without turning the whole thing into a hack and slash with numbers.
The real problem with jrpg of the past for me is mostly the random encounters and the fact that the gameplay in the end becomes just grind, you don't really get anything new just bigger version of what you had at the beginning, the game doesn't really challange you to find clever way to use your resources but just pushes you to the cheapest, quickest way to grind your characters and gg.
That's not strategy, that's lazy game design that's what it is
>>320037383
>real-time
put in more work so the player can feel more fluid in combat
>z-combat
target lock, strafe, attack when open (or if the game is a piece of shit, just mash)
>no target locking
mash light and heavy till enemy dies or press B or O to instantly parry and kill
>turn-based
uses to be a limitation of system
>traditional i go you go combat
for every action there is a reaction
allows for setup, but will take damage or get counter setup in return
>atb
progressive evolution of turn based
more setup approach, haste/slow
Unless you play on anything beside Normal or Easy, mashing in real-time will get you through just about anything. Same can be said for turn-base, the most basic attack will get you through the most basic mobs and lower level boss.
>>320038445
R-really?
For what? Isn't a 360 game?
>>320038749
Take a wild guess.
>>320038625
FFVII would be much better if it had a traditional turn based system instead of ATB.
ATB's biggest problem is that at higher speeds it gives the AI an advantage. It never comes into play 99% of the time, but knowing a game is always cheating pisses me off.
>>320036067
Not true. Real time games existed. Turn based rpgs were interoretations of..you know....actual RPGs.
Theres nothing archaic about the concept itself, many games have altered it from simple back and forth to stuff with more depth.
The real reason people hate it is because they are ADHD babies. Same kind of people who dont get why quattro is a "good guy" in Z gundam.
ATB has always been shit, real turn based combat is way better and that's why most jrpg use that and that's completely fine.
>>320039004
FF7 Remake with a more involved version of the FF10 battle system would probably be pretty solid.
>>320038849
>vita
>>320039178
>real turn based combat is way better
Can you justify this before you state it as fact?
>that's why most jrpg use that
This is pretty much not true.
>>320038716
>grinding out levels
>lazy game design
Sure, light/heavy/counterkill isn't? Since Arkham and AssCreed that's all AAA action games have become. Every games' combat is literally lifted from one game to another. Adding a coat of pain is more lazy than actual set placed mechanics and well thought out bosses.
>Is Turn-Based style games simply a relic of the past, used only because of hardware limitations
no
>remembered and cherished, as a more classic style of gaming
also no
turn based has some interesting concepts that can't be seen with action based
one of the compelling things that can be done with a turn based system is "scheduling" the entire player's party's moves for the turn
needing to think about the initiatives, the advantages of which characters will move faster than the monsters and which will move slower, and how to buff/attack/defend/heal, is a concept that can't be felt in a reactive action system
planning ahead, and being locked into watching a bad decision you made, is interesting
turn-based isn't outdated, it's just most people don't know a good turn-based combat from a bad one. They just assume that games like FF7, which have awful, awful combat altogether, are demonstrative of the style as a whole.
The only terrible thing about old turn-based games isn't the turn-based part, it's the random encounters. Totally random encounters are garbage, having control over it on the map is far superior.
tl;dr people who think turn-based can't be good should check out a game that actually has good combat instead of thinking shit like FF is indicative of the genre.
>eating breakfast
>remember that FF15 is actually happening and looks great
Only thing I know is going to be bad about the game is the framerate but otherwise goddamn I could really care less about FF7R
>>320036582
>Neptunia rebirth
>>320036067
Does that matter if it's fun on it's own though?
Playing chess is an approximation of actually killing each other in a field full of knights and shit but I wouldn't want to do that instead of playing chess.
>>320039734
Random encounters are fine.
>>320039305
It's actually faster then waiting for your bar to fill up and it gives real strategic planning, you know when the enemy turn will be and yours will and you can plan accordingly.
Most modern jrpg sure as hell don't use ATB. But afterall I haven't really played many modern jrpg so I wouldn't really know.
>>320035880
X-com and x-com 2 is turn based.
Also, >>320036674
>>320035880
>used only because of hardware limitations
No, they were imitating the pen-and-paper RPG's like Dungeons & Dragons. It had nothing to do with hardware.
>>320036020
>chess
>good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RHLtx9r2LA
>>320039975
>Most modern jrpg sure as hell don't use ATB.
Well yeah, ATB is mostly in Square games, and Square isn't most jrpgs these days because they blow their loads on multimillion dollar flashy games.
No, there's definitely ways to make a turn based game focus on strategy over raw speed like an aRPG. Trails comes to mind as a pretty decent example of a turn based combat system, and I'm sure there's better yet in jRPGs. Divinity:OS had an awesome combat system, as well.
>>320035880
Turn Base isnt dead, people are just lazy and don't want to make good animations for turn based games.
The only Final Fantasy game to get turn-based combat right was X, and it's one of the most reviled games in the series.
ATB is garbage and always has been no matter the game/series, literally turn-based combat for retards with severe ADHD. Turn-based in SRPGs are usually done really well, see Fire Emblem and Advance Wars as examples.
>>320039879
I agree in some cases. In dungeon crawls it seems alright. In overworld games it's just annoying, especially if it's tied to long start-up times for encounters.
>>320036619
Those board games are the only reason vidya RPGs exist, because a bunch of nerds had the bright idea of making their D&D campaign into a video game.
>>320040335
>The only Final Fantasy game to get turn-based combat right was X, and it's one of the most reviled games in the series.
Yep. Because switching in a character shouldn't take up an entire fucking turn.
>>320035880
>used only because of hardware limitations
People who say this have no fucking idea.
There were games back even in the SNES (maybe even games for the NES I don't know) that had active combat WITH companions who were AI controlled.
It never was a "hardware limitation", it was a design choice. Being (quasi)-turn based gave you the option of having a good look on you characters.
In all the group based games that utilize action combat it's always a huge fucking clusterfuck and you don't even see them fighting most of the time.
>>320040525
>Because switching in a character shouldn't take up an entire fucking turn.
It doesn't, you switch in a character and still perform another action with that character. Did you even play the game?
>>320040525
I don't know, I think it encourages strategy
>>320035880
>Is Turn-based outdated
no it's just niche as gaming gose more mainstream you'll see it being dropped for bigger player markets
IF CHESS IS SO GOOD WHY THERE IS NO CHESS 2?
CHECKMATE, ATHEIST!
>>320040708
>what is checkers
totally fucked the franchise imo
I prefer turn based RPGs, but I do think the mainline Final Fantasy games are the one franchise I trust to make interesting stat and tactical based action combat. I enjoyed FF12 and the demo of 15.
It's way better than shit like Skyrim's combat for an RPG anyway.
>>320040652
I'm agreeing with you. Sorry if that looked sarcastic.
>>320035880
It's not that it's dead, its just that it's very hard to get turn based to actually be strategic and worth your time. In the future obvious case about FF7 the only strategy in its combat was to make sure you have the right consumables in your inventory before going into a dungeon and not leaving the controller unattended without pausing. That problem goes out to a lot of other games even within final fantasy, some ending up being alright because of your appreciation for the rest of the game.
But the important thing to consider is that FF7R isn't necessarily going action combat because turn based is outdated and whatnot, its just because it's a remake and the team feels its important to alter the experience and bring something new. And rightfully so.
>>320039879
They were a lazy way to simulate P&P random encounters which had the GM narrate, add plot hooks, and build up said encounters to the point that it didn't feel like random encounters in video game rpgs. That being said, Chrono Trigger got it right. Seriously, are there any other games that flawless jumped into combat like that? It's more rare than it has any right to be.
>>320037403
And yet games like Chrono Trigger and the later Final Fantasys are the ones which have "spam attack to win" as a viable strategy.
Have people who hate turn based combat ever played an SRPG in their lives?
>>320040892
Oh, my bad.
>>320040608
Even the PC-88 had ARPGs, in things like Dragon Slayer, Xanadu, and Ys all before 1990.
>>320040525
isn't that more because it's a straight-line adventure which bucks numerous positive trends from past games in the series?
>>320040912
>That being said, Chrono Trigger got it right. Seriously, are there any other games that flawless jumped into combat like that? It's more rare than it has any right to be.
Chrono Trigger had enemies automatically jumping you to the point where it may as well have been random encounters.
>>320040335
>The only Final Fantasy game to get turn-based combat right was X
My fucking sides
Does anyone else actually like turn based combat but hate ATB?
I don't really see the benefit in making you rush through the menu selections, it doesn't make the game feel any more "action-y" to me.
Plus ATB leads to dead-air situations where EVERYONE is waiting for a turn, which never happens in traditional turn based
>>320040895
> And rightfully so
don't make me bring up the Dragon Quest argument .
>>320040928
that's because those games focused more on making sure the player appreciated the story than they did on being challenging games. They weren't games, they were just DVD menus.
>>320035880
No, they just stopped making them almost completely so it gives the impression that turn-based RPGs are dead
>>320041283
I'm not a big fan, but I don't like FF anyway.
Is there an FF game with ATB in which the combat is actually demanding enough to warrant trying to win?
>>320038746
>Unless you play on anything beside Normal or Easy, mashing in real-time will get you through just about anything.
Except this isn't true. Wonderful 101, Bayonetta, the Souls games, God Hand, DMC, Ninja Gaiden, all of those games can't simply be boiled down to "mash attack to win". Not only do they have additional mechanics that a lot of turn based games don't (where you're positioned in relation to enemies, timing dodges and counters, timing combos as well if they require delays in the inputs), turn-based games require no quick thinking, reaction time, and generally very little planning in advance. You just wail on the enemy until they die, moderating damage dealt and health recovered at your leisure.
No, they tried to make Dragon Quest 9 an action game instead of a turn based one and Hori actually got thousands of death threats
>>320041283
Personally I liked how Riviera did the combat. It's a mix between turn based and ATB. Sure there were some times were everyone was waiting for a turn but it was always really short. Also having a "ATB bar" makes it possible to had some interesting effects to skills like increase wait time or reverse wait time.
>>320041296
If that game kept the regular atb battle system I would drop it from my hype list so hard.
We don't know how it fully works yet and this is probably going to change just like how FF15 tweaked itself, but it already looks like a smart move
I like how people bitching about ATB don't know that you could turn that off.
Personally it seems to me that real-time would severely limit the things you could do in FFVII. Not just in terms of selecting different types of attacks (slash-all, steal/mug, enemy skill, spell, summon, item) but in how many options you could squeeze into each category. You can do things like blitz commands of Castlevania spells, but you'll never get that type of control scheme to have nearly the range of spells and items that Final Fantasy has.
>>320041283
>Does anyone else actually like turn based combat but hate ATB?
I do.
Go all the way or don't do it at all but don't half ass it.
>>320041439
that's only in bad turn-based combat systems where there's no challenge. Good ones force you to cover your bases and don't worry about being easily beaten.
From there the biggest problem is the ability to grind but that's easily fixable as well.
>>320041283
>I don't really see the benefit in making you rush through the menu selections, it doesn't make the game feel any more "action-y" to me.
In case of FF you could set the ATB to "wait", so "time" doesn't advance when you're in any sort of menu that isn't the standard one.
>Plus ATB leads to dead-air situations where EVERYONE is waiting for a turn
In the case of FF again you could turn the speed of the ATB gauge up dramastically. When at the fullest it's pretty fast, so there almost never is any downtime.
FFXIII's ATB battle system was a straight upgrade from turn based in previous games.
Likewise, Lightning Returns real-time combat is a straight upgrade from XIII's.
You'll notice the farther away you get from turn based, the better it is.
Yes, turn based combat a shit and it only worked we had limited technology and ideas. Lightning Returns is one of many examples of good RPG combat without being turn based
>>320035880
Is chess outdated?
Is newest Civ outdated?
Turn based system has its own merits. Whether it applies to FF7 is a different thing, but as a gaming concept it's very solid.
>>320041439
This is not the case with SMT games, hell even Persona 4 has more going on than what you described.
>>320035880
turn based is fine but ATB menu spam is total cancer
>>320041610
Could you list some? Only ones that come to mind for me are most of the SMT games, where buffing, debuffing, and predicting opponents moves numerous turns in advance seem to matter.
>>320040912
>Seriously, are there any other games that flawless jumped into combat like that?Final Fantasy XIII
The pit that many action-RPGs fall into is that they make defense less about actual resource management and just add dodging. So really it has nothing to do with RPGs anymore except the damage you inflict on enemies.
>>320041439
Actual action games have challenge. Most ARPGs don't have much of a challenge, since they combine the "skill it to kill it" and "grindan4eva" aspects of action and RPG. You end up with a little skill gained, but a lot more numbers.
>>320041653
ATB is just a shit system m8. At the beginning of a game everyone is waiting around for their bars to fill, and at the end of the game they fill up so quickly that everyone is waiting in line for their turn that theyve already chosen due to long animations. Even the alleged improvements by X-2 are pretty shit. X had it right.
>>320035880
>Is Turn-based outdated?
It's the best solution for party based JRPGs, call me old fashioned but I like having complete control over all my characters
Action based combat can be great as well, but I prefer it in games where I control a single characters
The only way I can see the new actiony combat working is if they let me program my allies A.I. the way XII did with the gambits
>>320042040
This. Turn based is only outdated if you're controlling a single character. Once you have a whole party to command there's no way an action system can allow for such precise strategization
>>320040895
>obvious case about FF7 the only strategy in its combat was to make sure you have the right consumables in your inventory
(AddedEffect+Contain)
(AddedEffect+Hades)
(Deathblow+HPAbsorb)
(Deathblow+MPAbsorb)
(Deathblow+StealAsWell (FinalAttack+Phoenix)
(CounterMagic+Heal)
(Heal+TurboMagic)
>>320040912
mother + derivatives usually do a good job
>>320041274
Solid argument, friendo.
>>320041439
>Wonderful 101
>Bayonetta
>the Souls games
>God Hand
>DMC
>Ninja Gaiden
As much as I love those games, they don't sell worth shit. Aside from the Souls games. Character action are TOO action-y.
Real-time action games that sells gangbusters are mash to win garbage.
>AssCreed
>Arkham
>Mordor
>Mad Max
>anything that came from a western company with an open world
>>320041970
>At the beginning of a game everyone is waiting around for their bars to fill
Except no. I told you you can speed the ATB up, and at the fastest you don't have wait time, even in the beginning of the game.
>and at the end of the game they fill up so quickly that everyone is waiting in line for their turn that theyve already chosen due to long animations
Are you shitting me? On real turn-based RPGs this is ALWAYS the case, yet you say you love turn-based but hate ATB?
You aren't making any sense at all.
>>320041970
Lightning Returns a best. ATB with multiple gauges and control character movement.
>>320042418
Toppest of good tastes.
Turn based is great. ATB systems are fine.
I like shit like Tales or even The Witcher, but I see no reason to just kill off turn based systems in any way. I'm not even that much of an oldfag, relatively speaking, I just think that turn based combat, even in JRPGs, is a good idea. Doesn't mean we don't need real-time combat or action combat in an RPG, but there's no reason to just drop a combat system style.
It's a strategic style; it can't be outdated, just a poor decision if it doesn't work well with the game.
>>320042241
Better:
Quadra Magic + Lightning / Added Cut + Lightning
MP Turbo + Lightning / Steal As Well + Lightning
MP Absorb + Lightning / Magic Counter + Lightning
HP Absorb + Lightning
W-Magic / Magic Plus
>8 Bolt 3's, 8 steal attempts, 2 attacks, and the caster ends up with a lot more MP than it cost to cast in the first place.
>>320042241
>(AddedEffect+Hades)
Holy shit, I never even thought about that.
Also
>(CounterMagic+Heal)
>(Heal+TurboMagic)
Would that actually mean that the countered Heal would be boosted by TurboMagic? Somehow I think that wouldn't be the case, but I don't know for sure.
Furthermore, you're correct that you can make all kinds of cool combinations in FF 7, but common, even you know that you don't need that shit at all. Most of the game can easily be cleared with basic attacks interrupted by some few cures and hastes.
>>320042557
Most new RPGs, action or turnbased, are sloppy and don't balance their combat well.
I find myself playing SNES and Saturn/PS1 games these days. More interesting, and generally more unique.
>>320042418
>>320042510
Its really the best compromise between ATB and realtime.
They somehow managed to keep the paradigm and stagger system of FFXIII functional with only one character, and allowed you to have multiple ATB gauges and classes with only one character.
The result is it almost feels like you're controlling a party like before, but now you have more control over your character.
I would like to meet whoever came up with that combat system and suck their dick. Or maybe just kiss the tip.
I think any kind of combat needs to be carefully implemented in an rpg. I don't want to play an rpg that they made and just added an action battle system to. Think about action rpgs like diablo 2...the combat is very complex and central to the game..I remember playing ff13 being confused during combat and just mashing my way through. Turn based might seem odd in conjunction with flash ps4 graphics, but I don't think it should be thrown out the window.
>>320042984
FFXIII's combat seemed weak at first but it shined during long boss fights. The game didn't really take advantage of the combat system until towards the end of the game.
It's not a matter of it being "outdated" because it can never be "outdated".
It just comes down to it appeals to. Turn based works very well depending on the type of game it's being used in and some of us would even like to see it in places where it probably has no business being.
The problem is that people who like turn-based games are in the minority of gamers these days. Plebs cannot wrap their head around the concept of strategy and if you even say the word "Chess", they go cross-eyed and need to listen to lil Wayne to bring them back to consciousness. They just do not have the ability to think on any level other than that of an ape using a rock to repeatedly bash things.
For ADHD these types, they will forever be locked out of playing any game that requires turn-based strategy and, so, they will always call it outdated.
Were there any RPG's which did interesting things with ATB that weren't just 'attack scorpion when tail is up'? The whole premise of ATB seems good in theory but in practice hardly any games I've played truly benefited from it's inclusion aside from parasite eve. Did having a timer on your actions make the combat feel more exciting/visceral when you were a kid? To be honest I just found that it made the gameplay tedious.
>>320041791
Etrian Odyssey series
>>320043540
I really loved it in Baten Kaitos Origins
>>320043540
I don't think any of the standard FF games did turn-based well at all. It was just a functional battle system. It didn't actually do anything wrong but it just wasn't good.
FF tactics is a far better example of turn-based combat done right.
>>320041524
Dragon Quest throughout its history has remained the same game at heart a game people love why it can remain the same is people like that game the way it is
final fantasy repeatedly tries new things but the games very widely in feel i don't like most of them they aren't the games i was looking for when i grabbed them of the shelf
if i go grab my favorite recipe book and make my favorite recipe i don't want them changing the recipes around on me if i wanted to make some other type of food i would make something else
needles changes kill the franchise if you want to try something different than call it something different and let it stand on its own merits like DMC is to RE or how xenogears started as a pitch for ff7
I like to think of this question in reference to games like FFXII or Dragon Quest Monsters. Both permit you to switch to AI for your player characters, but you get the option to grab the reigns and switch over to manual when you get in trouble.
AI mode is great for some casual grinding, the AUTO button in Final Fantasy Record Keeper makes it easy to play on the go.
BUT, I need the option to switch to Manual when a difficult fight, boss, or bad luck strikes. I hate the feeling of games where the AI making bad draws is why you lose your advantage. Are programmers unable to create challenging boss fights anymore? Heck, the gunship boss in FF13 would have been no less thrilling if it were turn-based.
As for action RPGs, it's a different Genre. Let KH be KH and FF be FF, please. Simultaneous, turn-based control over your whole party is what FF was founded on and what 11 of its first 14 games are about, with the departure of 13 being ultimately unliked.
Not at all
Bravely Default came out not long ago and I enjoyed it greatly
>>320042241
>>320042241
Deathblow doesn't do much earlier, if you don't have the right weapons for the hit rate. It's also just a neat addition, not necessarily great, Added Cut is probably better in a lot of ways. Counter magic, Turbo and Hades are also very late.
The real MVP is the enemy technique materia. Leave Midgar, learn Matra Magic. You learn Big Guard as soon as you hit the second continent, go back with the boat and learn Beta from Midgar Zolom and you have recipe for almost anything in the game. Pick up Trine and Aqualung on the way for immunities and you're golden until very late into the game.
>>320043902
This. It always felt good seeing your turn come up in the order just before the enemy's did.
>>320044018
Bravely Default was pretty amazing because it's a game that I enjoyed mainly for it's battle system alone.
It didn't do everything well, but the things it did well it did AMAZING.
>>320043937
FF tactics is turn based but not an ATB.
>>320043902
What differentiates it from a true turn based game besides a timer?
>>320043937
>FF tactics is a far better example of turn-based combat done right.
FF:Tactics is an SRPG.
Entirely different genre.
>>320043937
FFT and TO did one other thing that every single RPG since should've adopted
They showed the success rate of status attacks and steals
If every RPG implemented this mechanic, maybe more people would consider using these commands
In regular JRPGs you usually have to waste a turn to use Scan/Libra to see if an enemy has any weaknesses
>>320044067
>go back with the boat and learn Beta from Midgar Zolom and you have recipe for almost anything in the game
You can get it earlier than that.
Equip on one character E.Skill, and Fire+Elemental materia in a linked armor slot (the latter is obtained by correctly answering the Mayor's question) and have the Zolom boot at least one of your party members out of battle, before following up with Beta.
The person with the Elemental armor will survive the hit and learn Beta.
>>320035880
>Is Turn-Based style games simply a relic of the past
probaly
>used only because of hardware limitations
i don't think that was ever the problem. it's just not a popular genre anymore.
>>320044227
Oh. Active time was just a weak attempt to liven up turn based. It was basically the same thing but it gave you less time to think and the enemy could continually take their turns even while it was yours. I think FF7 did it alright but overall I don't ever recall myself ever thinking that it was fun or intuitive way to play.
>>320035880
Until Chess is outdated this will never stop being a dumb argument. Which is why we're now having it every single day with the reveal the FFVII remake won't be turnbased.
It's okay anon, you don't need to dump on decades of good games just to justify SE's business decisions. Life will continue on regardless of how poor to mediocre a job SE does with the game.
>>320044279
Do you not understand the concept of "turn-based"?
It means one player takes their turn, then the next, and so on. If it's two people playing, it's just back and forth in turns. Like chess.
by no means
I wish games gave you the choice if you want it to be turn based or action. I personally prefer turn based over action based but most games is using the latter gameplay system so theres literally nothing or nothing worthwhile to choose from.
>>320044227
>What differentiates it from a true turn based game
well, you can't just sit around doing nothing like in your typical TB game or the enemy will destroy you
You also have to constantly build up combos and discard cards in real time
The battles can get pretty hectic at times
You're better off seeing the battle system in action in a gameplay video (or better yet, play the game), because it's hard for me to explain the combat in great detail since english is not my first language
Until this game stops being amazing turn based will never be outdated.
>>320035880
My opinion is decisive since I have more experience than the average-high here.
Turn-based combats have less possibilities, therefore is an old system for consoles and PC.
It's good for handled games such as Bravely Default, but still, is a simplistic combat system that doesn't really require any skill except on some specific extra bosses. It's what we call nowadays "artifficial difficulty".
FFVII will have an action+TBA combat, and it's OK.
Turn-based kills immersion, and Actionm provices an efficient immersion. It's an RPG afterall, we NEED immersion.
Noobs and Casuals relates action combat with games such as Devil May Cry, and they're just wrong, because there's nothing similar at all.
You can cry with "muh turn based" but that's because you're a casual, and you want to play a game that the 90% of their combats are done by just hitting the same button "Attack".
Stop being a casual, please, this industry needs better players.
>>320040335
X and X-2 really were the ones that got their battle systems right. X still suffers from being way too easy though. Most of the random battles are switch into a party member that is strong against that foe and go for a 1 or 2 hit kill
>>320044448
>In regular JRPGs you usually have to waste a turn to use Scan/Libra to see if an enemy has any weaknesses
And you wont use magic on trash mobs anyway because most games are prohibitively stingy with MP restoration and spell costs; forcing you to conserve MP for healing and/or boss fights.
I was pleasantly surprised to find you could 'Use' Rods from the item menu in FFIV to randomly cast White/Black magic. It makes lugging around mages less tedious- especially the section with the twins.
>>320045000
>It's an RPG afterall, we NEED immersion
Fuck off Yahtzee
>>320044796
Turn-based console-style RPGs and turn-based tactical (AKA simulation) RPGs are entirely different genres.
Stop comparing them.
>>320035880
Turn-based is not outdated at all, some people like myself prefer it compared to the flashy style of action RPGs. I prefer "tactical" games like turn-based JRPGs and turn-based strategy games like Civilization, Advance Wars or Final Fantasy Tactics compared to most every other genre and I hope developers don't lose site of this in favor of either action style RPGs like the FF7 remake or create a turn-based RPG with no depth that relies on the use of pandering over strategic substance (I have not played or watched Nep, but I only assume this is the case and would be gladly wrong if it isn't the case)
>>320045039
X also suffered from encouraging the player to grind. There wasn't a single boss in the game that couldn't be overcome by grinding, and some i.e Braska's Final Aeon pretty much required you to.
>>320045000
Spoken like a true millennial.
>>320044937
>well, you can't just sit around doing nothing like in your typical TB game or the enemy will destroy you
So a timer? Besides just passing turns in a turn based game will get you killed just as fast.
>>320045085
Probably my greatest annoyance with turn based RPGs is when they just use regular encounters to drain your resources before the boss.
Either cut that shit out or make it so every single encounter is a challenge. I liked in Bravely Default where you could pretty much rush any non-boss encounter by taking 4 turns at once.
>>320045210
Anon... What does those two being different genres have to do with them utilizing turn based systems of combat? Are you drunk?
How much is Squeenix paying to have people shitpost about turn-based games right now? This shit only started when the 7 remake marketing began.
>>320045000
>You can cry with "muh turn based" but that's because you're a casual, and you want to play a game that the 90% of their combats are done by just hitting the same button "Attack".
Irony.
>>320045532
Clearly you weren't around for the Original Sin launch (and then again for the relaunch). Most of the new generation of gamers hate turn based strategy.
>>320045532
Sonykeks do it for FREE
>defending episodic shit because the original game came in 3 discs
>>320045463
You said,
>FF tactics is a far better example of turn-based combat done right.
which is like comparing apples to oranges.
>cows have 4 legs
>tables have 4 legs
>cow = table
This is literally what you're arguing.
>>320035880
I like wholly turn based when done right, like in FFX. This Active Time Battle or whatver they've been using for other final fantasy titles just doesn't click with me. Might as well go real time at that point imo
>>320042787
>Most of the game can easily be cleared with basic attacks
Sure, if you want to take all the fun out of it.
But, uh...good luck killing Emerald Weapon without stacked materia combos.
Just saiyan.
Also farming weenie badguys for items or limit break training just wouldn't be the same without (AddedEffect+Hades)(AddedEffect+Contain) on Vincent.
Every shot from the Sniper CR turns you into a tiny sleeping muted poisoned confused frozen petrified dead frog. I call it "Added Effect: Fucked".
And lets not forget the enemies with elemental strengths and weaknesses. Not only does it make enemies more manageable, it can be useful for the party too. Set up one character to do fire damage and absorb ice, one character to do ice damage and absorb lightning, and one character to do lightning damage and absorb fire. Then you can heal just by hitting your party members. But of course you'd also need to have non-elemental and/or supplemental elemental attacks (magic, summons, or items) so your lightning-attacking character isn't useless against lightning-absorbing monsters. Unfortunately when Cloud has to navigate a 200 item inventory or master magic materia without the framework of a turn-based system, you're gonna have a bad time.
>>320044067
>You learn Big Guard as soon as you hit the second continent, go back with the boat and learn Beta from Midgar Zolom and you have recipe for almost anything in the game
Don't forget Magic Hammer and Goblin Punch for when you're out of MP. And White Wind. And Matra Magic for when you just feel like shitting rockets all over some chump. Especially Magic Hammer, though, because a LOT of the enemies in the game (and especially the Battle Arena) are helpless once they run out of Skill Points.
>>320045000
>turn-based kills immersion
Not really, a strong boss gives you great immersion, moreso than most other videos games in my opinion. I went through Nocturne recently, and the bosses in that game kept me more immersed in the game than any other game I can think of in recent years.
>>320045373
your time to think your moves through in BKO is limited when compared to your average JRPG
you have to think quickly in most boss battles, since the cards you draw from your deck are randomized, so you have to know in advance what card will be useful for later, and which one can be safely discarded
You have to do all this in real time
>>320036067
Real time combat existed in plenty of NES games, and was actually used in RPGs as early as the SNES. Yet turn based RPGs are still being made and people still buy, play, and enjoy them.
I've always found that turn based games have way more room for creativity. You can post all the combo videos you want, but I'm just not into that kind of shit.
Valkyrie Profile for example, is about as turn based as can be - going from player turn to enemy turn each round. But it keeps things more interesting by letting you time your characters attacks to try and break the enemies guard and stun/stagger them. VP2 mixes it up by adding a great monster part breaking system that makes attacking enemies from different sides with specific moves a lot more important to the gameplay.
Grandia games are turn based, but make things way more interesting by making positioning actually matter. You need to keep your party spread out to avoid AoEs, or keep them bunched up for buffs and healing. Characters actually need to be able to run up to and each the enemy they are assigned to attack, and you can cancel enemy actions with proper timing.
Bravely Default makes things interesting by letting you take multiple actions per turn, if you have the BP for it. Etrian Odyssey is fun because every single status ailment is worth your time, actually work on bosses, and along side buffs and support moves in general are vital to your survival. Resonance of Fate has you positioning your characters for team attacks and hiding behind cover.
All of those games are turn based, but play drastically differently from each other. I find most ARPGs boil down to the same general strategy, because you are stuck with the one character and a few shitty AI side characters who only serve to waste your healing items for you. Don't get me wrong, some games like Dragons Dogma make it fucking great - but I have a far longer list of turn based RPGs I have enjoyed, compared to ARPGs.
>>320045720
Go get some fresh air, dude.
>>320045768
oops...forgot mah pic
>>320045714
Not him but I don't think I was. I am a firm believer that if you want a good DnD game you should do it turn based like DnD actually is, such as Div:OS or ToEE and not go something like Pillars or Baldur's Gate. I am not saying Pillars or Baldur's Gate are bad games, but I find the gameplay of both these games to be completely uninteresting and not much fun compared to Div:OS.
>>320044067
I just got the fireproofing item from the Mithril Cave, turned right back around, and keked the snek. It's easy when everyone's in the back row and Beta does Zero damage.
>>320035880
There's still no better way to control an entire party in real time than turn based, unless you use sort of an RTS style system.
Most of the time you're stuck with shitty AI or at the very best, you're able to swap between party members.
>>320035880
No turn-based is not outdated. The problem is that most turn-based games require the players to spam the same few abilities, save for a few gimmick encounters. I also believe its easier to hide design and balance flaws behind twitch based combat.
>>320045720
FF tactics IS a better example of turn-based combat done right. Because the combat is classed as a strategy rpg, that doesn't mean that it's somehow not turn-based.
>>320045000
>turn-based kills immersion
The only thing getting killed is my sides from your critical roll for this retardation check
>>320045868
Even a game with a "traditional" turn-based gameplay like Dragon Quest is amazing since it spent so long perfecting their formula instead of making one type of gameplay than completely switching it up like some other JRPGs in the past. That said I do really like when companies take a risk like the aforementioned Grandia/Valkyrie/Bravely and end up having great systems.
Turn based is nice, you can actually plan out what to do depending on the stats your party has in a better way then ATB or realtime.
Like how speed doesn't matter at all in ATB and only gives you better DPS.
>>320040335
totally agree friend, keeping tracks of the turns in the corner and all that made it feel a lot more clearer and like you were actually doing things tactically instead of just being in this haze of bars filling up
>>320046191
It's turn based, but that doesn't mean you can compare it in the same breath to mothership Final Fantasy titles because they are different genres.
You cannot say "Zelda does action combat better than Assassin's Creed" because of some vague link that 'you can fight people in 3D in both games', it's a dumb, completely pointless and objectively wrong statement.
>>320045000
>he thinks the new battle system will be challenging
use less buzzwords and spacing in your posts if you want others to take them seriously
The only challenge I've had in action JRPGs (with multiple party members) was there because of my dumb allies' A.I.
I want full control over my party member, why is this so hard for you to understand?
>>320035880
Considering turn based games can play themselves, yes
>>320046615
>You cannot say "Zelda does action combat better than Assassin's Creed" because of some vague link that 'you can fight people in 3D in both games', it's a dumb, completely pointless and objectively wrong statement
I'm being baited right? This anon just copied this post from a previous one right?
>>320045980
Turn-based is actually great when it takes into account more than just attacking and healing (which is pretty much what most FF games do). Things like manipulating the field and giving importance to position, distances, height, ground type etc are things you don't really see any more these days.
>>320036492
>>320036530
>>320039004
>>320039190
>Mfw FFVII remake is getting rid of the garbage ATB
Full turn based be preferred, but I still like real time over ATB. Real time combat can always have the potential to be fun when killing trash mobs, even though it's easy where as ATB and turn based trash mob killing is always boring and only ever interesting when it comes to bosses. To be fair this is true in Final Fantasy and other jrpgs, but there are other games which have done turn based hard and right.
>>320045039
Only at the start. I recently noticed an ingenious thing about this game.
At the start, play is pretty linear, the level-ups go in a line and so do the roads.
Then operation Mi'hen happens, and the party's faith is shaken. Enemies become defined by preferred counter less often and characters can start branching into other's grids.
Once Bevelle is over, the story has gone completely off the rails; orbs become availabe that let you do with the sphere grid as you please and your characters are no longer truly defined by their class; Even as early as Mt. Gagazet, the "Switch in to counter" monsters become a rarity and it's experience, mastery of other mechanics, and builds that win the day, since everyone has thrown away the destiny that was supposedly put out for them.
X is XIII's plot done correctly.
>>320046875
Part of the fun of turn based games is coming up with strategies and combos that allow it to play itself though. You feel satisfied because even though the game is going on it's own, you were the one who "programmed" it to succeed. It's like a puzzle.
>>320046901
>Things like manipulating the field and giving importance to position, distances, height, ground type etc are things you don't really see any more these days.
Any recommendations of games that do this?
>>320046615
What the hell are you even talking about now, man? You are positively barmy. I never said they were the same game. I don't even
There is a clear difference between something that it in real time vs something that is turn-based. Can you agree on this much?
What about combat liked in Legend of Dragoon? I mean yeah the game itself isn't very good, but what you like to see more JRPGs with similar timed hits gimmicks?
>>320045430
>>320045085
Yeah, I prefer self contained battles (BKO, Chrono Cross, Live A live, Romancing Saga for the PS2) over continuous survival (most traditional JRPGs)
basically any battle system where I'm not forced to spam attack during most regular encounters
>>320035880
Turn based never stopped being popular, it simply stopped being used for no real reason.
Hell, using FF as an example, once they dropped turn based the series popularity started to slowly go down, and the lack of turn based is always criticized for every single new FF
Honestly, FFVII's ATB was crap, and I wouldn't mind seeing it revamped. Turn based itself isn't remotely antiquated, and this thread is full of great examples that prove otherwise.
>>320047264
Not like this. Paper Mario did timed hits WAY better.
I won't risk the higher combos at the rick of being COUNTERED during my own run.
>>320047178
Divinity Original Sin, for one. Ogre Battle games and also the original FFT also had some degree of this. Pretty much anything that was a tactical rpg and also things that are less tangibly classed as such like MTG card games.
>>320047228
>There is a clear difference between something that it in real time vs something that is turn-based. Can you agree on this much?
Yes, but don't compare turn-based games between genres.
eg. "Final Fantasy does TB combat better that Dragon Quest" is acceptable, because they're both console-style RPGs. What you said earlier isn't.
>>320047264
I liked attacking in that game, but it really had a shitty magic system
That pretty much killed it for me
More games should do something like Mother 3 and LoD and make the regular Attack command more fun IMO
>>320047479
Good point. So do you think more JRPGs should have Paper Mario combat elements?
>>320047004
>trash mob killing is always boring
Pretty sure the largest group you ever fought in FFVII was eight bugs.
And you could just one-shot the whole group with the All materia and any spell. Chopping up hordes of weak-ass baddies one after another is boring as shit. If I wanted that I'd play Dynasty Warriors. Devil May Cry made it fun by rating your stylish combos, but otherwise it's just lame repetition whether in real-time or turns.
>garbage ATB
You know you could set that to "Wait" and get straight turns, right? You know you could set that to "Active" and enemies wouldn't wait on you, right? You know you can turn the battle speed all the way up and your party's guages will fill faster than the animation for anything other than a basic attack...right?
>>320047414
I agree. I love how battles were in Romancing SaGa since you would start with full HP and standard battle points which would fill up during the battle. So you were encouraged to use the skills you've learned over the basic attack skill and the standard encounters could wipe your party as well.
>>320036067
>market moving towards what's objectively superior
No, they move towards what's accessible you dumb cunt.
>>320047948
Its the perfect mix. Keeps the player active when both attacking and defending.
What are some GOOD games which use an ATB system? So far the best I've played is growlanser (which also has a materia system like FF7) but that's typically considered to be garbage, so I figure there must be better versions of that combat system out there. What am I missing?
>>320036067
this is a copypasta from vr.
>>320039975
FFX/FFX-2 version of ATB has all the advantages you listed
>>320047948
It depends. Paper Mario works with Timed Hits thanks to his action game roots. Xs Overdrives are an okay use, since these are the big moment hits that don't interfere with basic grinding.
LoD, however, made you do a long, insane combo with every attack, even on fucking garden voles, and was no fun to grind.
>>320047697
You need help bro. I'm done with this. FF tactics was a ps1 game. That style of turn-based combat works far better than it ever did in any numbered FF game. The fact that the game doesn't meet some bogus criteria that you've baked inside your own twisted head makes no impact on the fact that it's a game with turn-based combat. Period.
>>320047439
No it went downhill because other types of RPGs became more accessible. What do you think would happen if FF7 was remade with the same turn based system as the old game? People would notice real quick that they are just using cure+attacks on every encounter and complain that the combat is too slow and requires no thought.
I can't even play an older FF without an emulator playing it at 200+ FPS.
>>320041402
this
I'm gonna buy DQ7 and DQ8 3DS as soon as they come out, jesus fucking christ
>>320035880
>Turn-Based
>Active
Why can't we have both?
>>320048041
the presentation in X is a lot more cleaner though and relies on you keeping track of all the turns, something I didn't feel much in VII.
Also, I don't understand how you could find clearing trashmobs as fun in a turnbased game as in a realtime game. Realtime is quick, you move on, it has some element of timing and movement. It's almost objectively better in this instance.
Of course the preferred game would be something that's almost devoid of trash mobs and random encounters, where every instance of combat is interesting and challenging. That would be a nice change, but I imagine devs are afraid of that since it means they can't pad the game out with any filler.
>>320048310
>"I like turn-based SRPG combat more than TB console-style RPGs"
okay.jpg
>>320036315
I remember back in the 90s they were just called rpgs, never jrpgs. After 20 yrs still not use to it.
I wish I could press a button to instantly kill everyone who has been shitposting the Final Fantasy 7 remake since it has been revealed. I think it would make the world a bit better of a place without those idiotic mouth-breathers shitting out negativity at every chance they can get.
>>320035880
I love turned based RPGs, and I am keeping my eye out for a good one. I personally hated Bravely Default, but I know I am in the minority. That said there are a lot of turn based RPGs on the horizon and I hope that they turn out okay.
>>320048080
I hear Legend Of Legacy is a spiritual successor with a similar battle system to the PS2 RS
Too bad i don't own a 3DS
They're still making a new SaGa
Action RPGs give you fast-paced fights.
Turn based RPGs give you strategic fights.
Problem is, the JRPG genre is designed for utter casuals, which means almost every game is piss easy. Would you rather have an easy action RPG or an easy game like Final Fantasy where its so easy they didn't bother to balance characters and some are outright useless?
The death of turn based RPGs is a result of most turn based RPGs being shit. The ones that were actually good, like SMT, didn't sell.
>>320035880
>turn-based is used only because of hardware limitations
Retard detected.
You do realise that the first-ever game was real-time, right? Turn-based is a conscious design decision which has nothing to do with hardware limitations.
>>320048918
you mean Imperial SaGa?
>>320048691
>>320048691
>I don't understand how you could find clearing trashmobs as fun in a turnbased game as in a realtime game
That isn't what I said. I said it's as boring in a real time game as it is in a turn based game. Ergo it is not, to me, a benefit of real-time mechanics because it's still boring even in real-time.
>>320035880
You know what Final Fantasy X got right? Being able to see the turns, I loved that shit. Any other games do this?
>>320049019
There is a new "proper" SaGa coming out for the Vita in 2016.
>>320049062
Radiant Historia does it
go play it now
>>320039045
Is that not easy to figure out?
>dislikes the Feds in Gundam
>years pass
>still dislikes the Feds in Zeta Gundam
It's all the other characters like Amuro and Bright who switched sides during Zeta.
>>320048691
>Realtime is quick, you move on, it has some element of timing and movement.
You can have turn based games be just as quick. Transitions into combat, and rewards screens, can be kept quite short these days. Grandia Xtreme is one of the best examples I can think of - the transition is fast as fuck. Select an AoE or two, or throw on the auto battle. You can be done with trash in a turn or two.
In an ARPG you can still outlevel an enemy to the point where you can just run in mashing attack. It's really not much better at all.
>>320049124
Oh, didn't know that.
Thanks for the hype, anon
I really, really enjoyed Fire Emblem Awakening and SMTIV. I think turn based is pretty great, but a game has to work well with it. Those fit pure turn based genre with a modern feel.
>>320049062
Pretty much the games that ripped it off.
>>320048946
This. Blunt but true. There are still people that defend turn based Final Fantasy as the epitome of greatness.
Show me an action rpg where you can control and manage your whole party as good as turn based.
I feel like the people who are butthurt it isn't turn based aren't even people who played the original when it was new.
Turn based makes sense primarily for SRPGs. But even then, Valkyria Chronicles is modernizing SRPG gameplay away from the typical grid layout. And though it's fundamentally flawed, it's good to see later stuff like Codename STEAM take a few cues.
>>320047264
I liked it and thought it was good. It had some missteps and was shit on by reviewers back then for being too much like final fantasy 7 but I enjoyed the hell out of it. I think its biggest sin was some of the mechanics were broken like the speed and magic stats. Kongol was completely inferior to every other member because of his low speed and on the other hand Meru just fucked everyone up because of her high speed. In terms of magic Shana/Miranda could steamroll bosses with their magic stat if you knew the boss's vulnerability and had stocked up on the correct magic item beforehand.
I think people in this thread would enjoy playing summonstrike[.com]. It's a neat twist on the Turn based RPG genre.
That said, turn based gaming is not for button mashers...it actually requires a brain. :)
>>320035880
>Is Turn-based outdated?
For god sake yes. The only reason it was used was because of limitation and only people with rose tinted nostalgia goggles desperately defend it.
>>320035880
I think the original final fantasy "step forward and attack" thing is sort of outdated, but stuff like Xcom really nails turnbased combat.
Am I outdated if I like turn-based games?
>>320049246
http://www.jp.square-enix.com/saga_sg/
It's called Scarlet Grace, and all we have besides the small story blurb on the site is that it will be scored by Kenji Ito.
>>320049490
As much as I hated these games, NWN 2 and DAO did this. You could pause the action whenever you wanted to queue up party actions.
>>320049653
>That said, turn based gaming is not for button mashers...it actually requires a brain. :)
This must be the latest pseudo-intellectual meme circulating /v/.
>retards actually think that an action game can't have strategy and require thought
This is how you can tell they're really just retards trying to look smart by vehemently stating their "superior" preference for turn-based combat.
>>320035880
The one thing turn-based combat will always have over real-time is the fact that you always have FULL control of your party during combat.
That is something real-time action RPGs will never be able to do outside of co-op.
There are things that can be done in turn-based that simply cannot be done in real-time because of this simple fact.
>>320041283
I had pretty much zero JRPGs growing up (except Pokémon, but I don't know if that counts due to the monster raising aspects and combat being 1v1 most of the time), and played through the FF games in order when I finally got to them.
When I first played FFIV I didn't like it for the reasons you stated, but then I played FFV and optimizing your actions grew on me. I think I just didn't like FFIV, it's really gotta suck that the west missed out on FFIII and V initially but got IV.
>>320049062
Wild Arms 5
Xenosaga
Don't worry anons
I will never abandon you
You obviously didn't play xcom
>>320035880
I think it depends on the genre and style of game they are going for.
Example: A game more heavily reliant upon tactics than action would need and almost require turn based tactics OR multiplayer due to shit teir AI.
>>320050000
checked
>>320035880
Turn based is still alive but atb should be killed off. Either have it favor mmo style or arpg style. If anybody is looking for a new turn based rpg with a class system and interactive controls https://youtu.be/3du-8ceRKfY
>>320049689
No, you enjoy that kind of video game. I also enjoy turn-based games.
>>320049228
True, speeding things up would help and is a giant pain when playing these older games as there's practically a mini loading screen every 30seconds when you enter a battle.
>>320049060
Clearing trashmobs is pretty lame in both cases, yes. The problem lies in that they're too frequent, that the transitions between combat and non combat are too slow and that the encounters themselves are too easy and just timesinks instead of interesting encounters.
Are there any JRPGs that have genuinely interesting encounters and minimum trash mob encounters?
>>320047598
That doesn't work well in other JRPG's like standard Final Fantasy games because having each standard encounter becoming a turn based battle in which you constantly move your characters across the battle field for better positions will slow the game down considerably.
If you noticed Ogre Battle and Final Fantasy Tactics is broken down into scenarios. You point and click on a scenario you want to go to next to progress the game.
>>320050031
They abandoned their old logo though. It was so much cooler.
>>320037253
I've never understood why people talk about shit like "oh I'm gonna do a 'blind' playthrough". Nigger what's the point of playing the game if you already know everything about it. Used to be that you'd play a game and have to figure shit out instead of having it mashed up and spoonfed to you like a babby.
>>320050401
Trash mob encounters are actually engaging in a lot of SMT games because of high difficulty and the fact that you can recruit enemies.
>>320048889
I heard it is mediocre and I don't trust it since it doesn't have Kawazu behind it.
>>320049246
Name was trademarked in Europe a couple months ago as well if it counts for anything.
>>320050401
You'd be surprised by the number of games that exist where one wrong move in a trash encounter will get you wiped.
>>320035880
I like them. As they provide a more utility oriented gameplay.
>>320042367
>a few games on the Wii U, basically an indie series, a PS2 game, etc.
>not selling as well as an established rehash series, batman, LOTR, and a game that has just come out.. and when nothing else was
OK. That seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the gameplay. Albeit, the Souls series' play is uniquely uninteresting.
