Has hand-holding in RPGs gone too far?
fucking hate this art style
Which side does the new Xenoblade game make part of?
>>319531539
Not just RPGs, in every genre.
>>319531913
The 3rd option grinding and censorship jrpg
>Dark souls
>No hand holding
>What are tooltips
fuck off,you didnt even need to make a paper map for navigation.
>>319531854
>hate newspapers
>hate tombs
>hate art styles
>>319531913
You're encouraged to explore and die pretty often, but the punishment for dying is barely there.
>>319532041
>QTE prompts aren't even randomized
Even fucking RE4 had those.
You'd think QTE "gameplay" can't degrade any further.
>>319531947
This. I'm not saying every game should be Souls-difficulty, but the level of handholding and literally no challenge and achievements for completing a tutorial and all that is just bullshit.
>>319532041
>dvd comes out for a dvd player
>people complain
never understood the hate from ps4 owners
>>319532041
This game lasted almost as long as Kane and Lynch.
>>319531539
I want to fuck a fully armored, great-helmed mom!
>>319531539
id love to see the vanquish version.
dark souls is handholding bullshit man he just fucking gave him the armor and weapon for free
>>319531970
Yeah this isn't "drawing out the fucking dungeon so you can complete the fucking map" level of hardcore but I think Dark Souls isn't about that.
Every step in Dark Souls is an inch you've earned. I think saying Dark Souls has less hand holding compare to the modern day industry is a totally fair call.
>>319532329
I gotcha senpai
Add TW3 to the left
>>319532436
Ha, too right.
>>319531539
>Here comes the airplane
>Kid symbolize a tower
Fucking piece of shit creator, i hate him so much
>>319532329
It would be too fast for you to see.
>>319531970
>>319532351
I'll be making notes of every locked door or any peculiar looking object in my real notebook with my real pen, when I'll be playing DS3.
>neo gamers think games like dark souls is hardcore
when dark souls requires you to start over from the very beginning of the game with each death, I'll consider it hardcore.
faggots throwing themselves at an encounter till they eventually get it is some casual shit.
>>319531539
damn, that kid can hold up the hilt? impressive
>>319531854
desu
>>319531970
>He has to make a map
just follow the right hand wall you fucking pussy
>Dark souls is hard
Game requires you to not have ADHD =/= Hard
>>319532635
>I'll be wasting time when all you need to know are the bonfire locations and what direction the boss is.
>>319532675
nigga there's autism and then there's AUTISM
at least Dark Souls, as easy peasy as it is, can casual gate a shitty ass gamer raised by Angry Birdsuntil they summon a more splendid player
>>319532750
>ignoring exploration in a Souls game and only going for the story bosses, i.e. the absolute minimum fun you can get out of the game
Literally retarded.
>>319532351
As a diehard fan of the Souls games I REALLY think they're overrated when it comes to them being 'hardcore'. They're great games but they're honestly not that hard.
>>319532137
It's not about just difficulty per-se, Souls games don't give a fuck about consequences, rather FROM loves to kick players out the comfort zone so dear to modern devs
Remember, the mods are pissed. Keep it vidya, nerds.
>>319531539
>this also applies to big girls
>>319532829
I agree with you now but for first time players it is difficult. Now I can play them all with ease but as you should know, your first playthrough on a souls game is the hardest and once you gitgud it take on another life. It is just hard to get into if you don't like a challenge. Not a hardcore game but in order to love it you need to play it hardcore.
>>319532675
Roguelikes only work as a genre because the fundamental gameplay is so simple and non-reliant on player reflexes and timing. Dark Souls would never work as a 1 death game because you have to learn enemy attack patterns and experiment with different gear to find what works for you. It would be the hardest roguelikelike ever because nobody would get past the capra demon.
>>319532675
If Dark Souls was Metal Slug difficulty with no continues half of /v/ would never have rung the first bell, the other half would never have gotten past capra demon.
>>319532675
It's not that dark souls is hard, it's that it doesn't hold your hand you dingus
>>319532829
>>319533074
>lack of handholding means the game must be super difficult
You guys lost the point of the thread.
>>319531539
I actually found Dragon Age Inquisition on its hardest difficulty more of a challenge than Dark Souls on soul level 1
>>319533184
Metal Slug is literally a joke game. It's virtually impossible to beat it so that kids would keep them quarters flowing. Why would you implement this artificial difficulty on a superior platform you fucking retard.
>>319533306
You clearly didn't read what I said. I said it isn't a hard game but it isnt newbie friendly. Reading comprehension on this board is at an all time low...
>>319533074
If you need to play it hardcore, it's a hardcore game.
>>319533324
Yes, it was though to not turn off the game and return it to the store. It was probably one of the hardest experiences I had as a gamer.
>fags on /v/ still think making a game brutally unforgiving for failure makes the gameplay itself hard.
>>319533334
Metal Slug 3 is a masterpiece you fucking hack. If I can beat it solo with 20 continues, being a fucking shitty reflexed plebian who took 70 tries to beat fucking Sans in Undertale, there are niggas who can slap that game's shit.
>>319533452
Nice meme m8 ;)
>>319532829
all it has is a steep learning curve at the start because there arent many mainstream games like it, so people are caught off guard. other than that its a nice and fair challenging game. talking specifically about dark souls 1 here.
that's it real RPG is dead genre just like RTS
>>319533523
Dark souls is forgiving as fuck though
HE IS FUCKING TALKING TO A BOY THE FOOTNOTE MAKES NO SENSE, NOT EVEN REPECTIVELY
>>319533639
I think it was in response to that idiot saying real hardcore games restart you at the very beginning.
>>319533631
>implying
>>319533631
>Age of Decadence
>Hard West
>Is Avadon still fucking going these days?
>UnderRail
>Pillars of Eternity/Wasteland 2
>Divinity
Nah.
>>319533306
No, it's OPs pic that got me off topic. I know it's a joke but it acts like Dark Souls is some heavy metal experience when in reality if you die you just respawn, kill the same trash mobs and try to kill whatever you were trying to kill before. After like level 20 it doesn't matter if you die because you're probably not carrying enough souls to level up more than one time, meaning you can just bash your head against the wall with a boss until you beat it with no real penalty. That's literally the entire game for new players.
>Go into new area
>Die
>Go into it again
>Don't die and discover new bonfire
>Explore the other half of the area
>Die
>Explore the other half other area again
>Find bonfire
>Find boss right beside it
>Keep trying to kill boss
It's literally that simple, sure it doesn't kiss your ass but at the same time it doesn't really punish you either.
>>319533639
That depends where you draw the line.
It's unforgiving in actual combat (and occasional platforming), because even common enemies hit hard, and you can get easily killed when outnumbered by hollows.
But the setback after death isn't very harsh, yes.
its because you have a generation coming up making games that have played JRPGs which are pretty much casual games except a few. So you are seeing more and more character driven games rather games focused on Role playing in the D&D sense.
>>319533819
And yet modern "gamers" tout it as some hellhole of death.
Even if they don't want a "true" unforgiving experience, I can appreciate that the general trend has been to buck these attempts at coddling everyone in modern big-budget games.
>>319533903
>modern "gamers"
Memespouters and people like your average /v/ poster who want to feel hardcore.
>>319532829
Dark Souls has a really steep learning curve that absolutely falls apart once you 'understand' the game.
>>319533965
I'd say more the audience who delved into Skyrim with callous abandon and legitimately tout it as one of the best games ever made.
>>319531539
I hate the "Dark souls is hard" meme, It hard at first, because the controls are shit, but when you get used to it is easy as a fuck.
>>319534151
They're not shit at all (some weird jump mechanics aside), just slow. Which makes it much easier to master than a faster game, on that topic.
>>319533840
>Lose 3 million souls
>They all go to Soul Memory
>>319534361
>muh soul memory
Honestly, it's YOUR decision to stay at some arbitrary level to do PvP in some arbitrary made up arenas like Iron Keep bridge. And of course it's your fault for losing the souls you were carrying on you.
Just push to the max SM tier and embrace the havel.
>>319534361
Soul Memory was a gross fucking decision, but it didn't matter because Dark Souls 2's pvp is somehow shittier than Dark Souls anyway.
>>319534151
agree but this isnt about the difficulty though? it seems more like about the navigation of those games.
>>319534504
>Dark Souls 2's pvp is somehow shittier than Dark Souls anyway
I disagree. Mechanically, PvP in Souls has always been shit. But DS2 gives you much more build options than From games before or after it, so with all other conditions being equal, it's simply better by the grace of diversity.
>>319534151
It is as hard as it is unforgiving.
You misstep and you fall down
You missclick and you get one-shot
You don't know your enemy and you just die
Other games don't let you die like that
It's like a 3d spelunky, and that's hard enough to be called hard
>>319533324
Man games with difficulty sliders are so shit though, I never played DA:I, but recently when I started playing Witcher 3 on death march, I had more trouble with fucking dog packs then chimeras/bosses and forced to do a bunch of sidequests for levels/items/equipment.
The same shit goes for most open world rpgs, where the gameplay isn't designed or balanced for a slider for difficulty. I'm just going to assume DA:I is the same horseshit.
>>319534614I concede.
>>319534504
Dark Souls 1 PvP was not good in any way. It was the same 4 or so builds and if you weren't using the meta shit you were fucked. The risk/reward of backstabs and parries was completely bullshit as well. Pretty much everything I could think about relating to Ds1 PvP was awful.
I hope this won't be a blunder like ds2 was.
>>319533324
I, too, would find shitty MMO combat harder than an action game if I was stupid enough to play a modern Bioware game.
>>319534151
see >>319532837
>>319532837
I hope From never gets to make a Berserk game, especially not for PS4. I wouldn't want a slow as fuck action game for Berserk.
>>319535201
I dunno about from, but honestly, I don't see anything wrong with DS level "slow" gameplay, considering Guts uses a fucking slab of metal for a sword.
Him jumping around and flipping like Dante wouldn't make sense, unless he's in beast mode.
>>319535359
>I don't see anything wrong with DS level "slow" gameplay, considering Guts uses a fucking slab of metal for a sword.
Read the manga
>>319535359
It's what he does in the comic.
>>319534853
>>gamefaqs
>>319531539
One again Souls fans prove to be the worse community.
>>319533819
You've raised a point that I never see people counter.
What IS a decent punishment for death? Realistically, you can only go so far as making the player lose certain kinds of items before it just ruins the fun. Progression is necessary, devs have known that for years, which is why password systems were created for games that were longer than a certain point.
Any modern game where the player has to restart from the very beginning upon death is either a roguelike, or will get extremely frustrating if it's even remotely hard.
>>319535413
>>319535435
He didn't do that without the armor. He usually only had the enemy a few times and that was enough, because of the weapon's destructive power.
Or he used the recoil from the arm-canon to do a quick spin attack.
>>319532220
I figured it was just because it was short but I got the game for $9 recently and the shooting ITSELF is total ass. When you even get to play the game because it's mostly slow walking, corridors and cutscenes.
I like the aesthetic but the game itself is horrible and indefensible.
>>319535596
There's whole sections where he sprints so fast and silently with that greatsword that he leaves nary a clue, like the infiltration into the cult den in the Mozgus section.
I won't argue it's silly, but it's not unprecedented.
And if any medium could pull it off, it'd be videogames - oversized swords have certainly not slowed down Bayonetta or Dante in the past.
>>319535596
In the Black Swordsman arc he's swinging around Dragonslayer faster than the human eye can follow and he only gets stronger from there. The whole reason everyone is so impressed by Guts isn't because he wields an inhumanly massive sword, it's because he wields it faster than most people wield a small sword. There's a reason that Serpico never tries to fight him except in places where the environment makes it near impossible for him to fight in spite of being a really fast motherfucker himself.
>>319531539
> Dark Souls
> hard
pick one
>>319535870
>Bayonetta or Dante
But Guts is just a mere mortal.
>>319536198
He's not very good at acting like it, is he.
>>319533803
Hard West any good?
>>319536198
>>319536240
Before getting the magic armor he couldn't go as crazy with the sword.
>>319536262
It's okay. Short, shallow, but it's got the aesthetic and such to carry it.
Don't go expecting a big ol' open world or anything.
>>319531539
Dark Souls Is not a hard game.
The only reason it even got recognised for it was because fucking reddit-tier autismo tryhard children played it after such games like Skyrim or Dragonage where the combat was boiled to spamming attack like a motherfucker, (Yes you can do that in DaS too but it'll get you killed a lot) Also probably because pre patch DaS was a bugger too.
The game itself only requires/wants you to not rush through enemies and to assess the situation and think of the best strategy for dealing with the mobs at hand. It's not newbie friendly by any means but once you understand the basics then you wont have as hard a time.
Unlike Angry Joe where he thought he would master the game in mere seconds and kept dying to the asylum demon over and over again because he didn't think to observe the arena and run through the door. I'm serious, the fucking asylum Demon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4oMnXEuDrM
>TL;DR: DaS is not hard, you just need patience
>>319536939
>Dark Souls is not a hard meme
>coming from a JoJo memer
Sounds about right.
>>319531539
>actually use the select/back button in menus when playing Demon's Souls and read the dev messages
>have little trouble with the game as a result
I don't get it, do people just not read button prompts in menus? Are people really that lazy?
>>319531970
The game isn't boring enough for me, therefore it is no difficulty
>>319531539
Artificial difficulty is just as bad as hand holding.
>>319537524
Good thing this isn't I Wanna Be The Guy, it's just a slow aRPG with some unique death mechanics.
>>319536939
actually it is a pretty hard game
the only reason it seems easy after a period of time is because it forces you to master its mechanics to such an extend you pretty much get muscle memory hen you play it
but the point is not how hard it is
it is the handholding
Dark Souls does squat fuck all to ease you into its mechanics and world outside of a couple tutorial messages at the very beginning and vague character dialogue
the vast majority of the game you have to figure out on your own
>>319532675
Anon, old games were ten minutes long. They could kick you back to the beginning fifty times because once you know what you're doing it only takes a couple of minutes to get back to where you were. Having to replay several hours is just boring.
>>319537524
>>319531539
Apart from the quest markers on the map I don't really think that Skyrim hand holds you past the first ~30 min of the game.
Yeah I guess the random advice among NPCs gives you directions in the game and its not hard to tell apart what is random chatter and what is quest hints.
I guess the hand holding is referring to how easy this game is.
>>319538448
Skyrim doesn't even need to hold your hand; you could probably lather that keyboard in butter, slide it down the hallway, and get more of the main quest done than you ever would have bothered to by yourself.
>>319532635
Now i'm mad again that i lost my old game notebook. Its filled with maps, faqs, secret areas and characters, combos and special moves. Also stashed porn disc's in those too.
>>319532904
I noticed lately, they even removed SFW sexy vidya pics.
>>319539053
>>319539053
That's a good thing.
>>319536354
How hard is Hard West?
>>319536939
Anon, its a hard game. Hard games aren't supposed to be unbeatable. No one knew exactly what to do the first time they played it, except those scrubs who read "guides" or watched lets-plays.
>>319539142
Even in SFW smexy vidya threads? They really bought down the hammer on LOL thread though. But most of those became insufferable as of late.
>>319539395
Those things were annoying.
>>319532904
Post the other version
Over time the expectation for modern video games has become that you should be able to complete all of the game's main story content even if you're bad at the game's mechanics, with optional harder side content/difficulty modes for those who want to be challenged. This is totally fine, especially for games where the combat mechanics aren't even the main focus, such as Bethesda and Bioware RPGs.
That said, it's also great that the Souls games came along and showed that there *is* still a market for games with "you must be this tall to ride" signs.
>>319531913
It's just a boring time sync. A game has to be good before it can be criticized for anything else.
Typical JRPG shovelware.
>>319531913
this is the side xenoblade x falls in
>>319532675
>the le dark souls is ez street meme
I can't even think of any other games harder than dark Souls that aren't some niche bullethell shit no ones heard of. Do you people think you're impressing anyone here?
>>319531539
>LE EPIK MEME SOULS IS HARD!!1!!XXDD
I wish this meme would die. Nothing about Souls games is hard. Literally trial and error: The Game.
ITT: mongs talk difficulty\hard
>topic is about hand-holding
>>319541070
>I never got gud at DkS the post
Please tell us all about artificial difficulty anon
>>319541404
How about you do everyone a favor and remind them what hand-holding in a video game actually is.
>>319541070
Isn't trial and error how you beat most video games?
>>319531539
yes
what pisses me off the most in recent games is the excessive exposition delivered in dialogues that have you sit down and listen and isnt interactive in the least
DS story telling has been the best story telling in years. You can go through the game not giving a shit about the story OR you can read all the item descriptions or pick up clues from optional conversations to unravel the whole story.
>>319541607
>games still have unskippable cutscenes
>more and more games keep doing that fucking "hud goes away and everyone starts spouting off dialogue" interactive cutscene bullshit
I hate it
>>319533715
this fucking shit. holy fuck, THIS. FUCKING. SHIT
>>319541498
I do not squander my valued time on Souls games, anon. I've witnessed enough compatriots leap the wagon to play them. I have perceived how effortless they truly are, but, please, be inclined to claim otherwise.
>>319532983
>>319531539
THAT ISN'T EVEN WHAT RESPECTIVELY MEANS, HE PROBABLY MEANT RESPECTFULLY BUT EVEN THAT SOUNDS FUCKING DUMB IN THAT CONTEXT. FUCK.
Someone post the "9 games that are the darksouls of their genre" image
>>319531913
It would be even further to the right, since the casual filter keeps out idiots that don't like to play games.
>>319543886
>>319544976
Is this bati?
>>319542116
>talks about Souls games not being hard
>post the most casual of action titles
Atleast post Ninja Gaiden Black anon
>>319539240
Not very hard unless you play on maximum difficulty + iron man.
Many skills are op as shit so you can sort of cheeseencounters with them, even if you run out of mana pretty easily
