Do you agree, /v/?
>PTSD trigger
>>319415559
Fucking Netherlands.
>>319415389
How can Bayonetta trigger PTSD?
>>319415389
Japan never quite transitioned from 2D to 3D well. They are clearly master of 2D games outside of strategy. But their fucking design decisions behind 3D games is some of the worst I have ever seen. They seriously can't into level design whatsoever out of a very few select 3D games. Their approach to open world is worse than the shittiest MMOs. Their shooters nearly all had awkward control schemes till last gen.
They also don't seem to grasp that no one wants to go through the same levels again halfway through the fucking game.
>>319415389
It's hard to agree when so many western titles come out either packed with bugs or just poorly designed.
I find myself giving less and less of a shit about story the more I play these "artfully crafted masterpieces". Even playing something like TLoU was a complete snooze-fest between the weak as fuck gameplay and boring characters.
Ellie is literally just a potty-mouthed brat that doesn't shut the fuck up in situations where clickers exist, but it doesn't matter they don't notice anything. Clickers are meant to "echo-locate" like bats, but in reality they have really good hearing, despite what the developers tried to shove down your throat. The AI is fucking horrendous, with Ellie/Other cast literally standing and running around despite danger being apparent, and as well as the fact you can literally just push the left analog stick on the PS3 just slightly enough you can crouch-walk past every clicker in the game without having to worry about getting caught. I was so confident in that, that I purposely would walk into clickers and knock scene props into the clickers and get 0 response.
Arkham games? Mash the attack button and then counter when needed. It's fun for the first few hours, but is at a loss after that and gets overly repetitive that lessens the experience. There's only so much badass shit batman can do before getting bored to death by the gameplay.
Portal 2 is a step down from Portal 1. The game that was once a fun project and a short experience turned into a constant joke machine to pander to fans of the original. While some puzzles were thought out very well, it falls short because of the fact some puzzles are not as open ended as Portal 1's. It subtracts from the overall experience and "rat in a maze" aspect of the game if everyone has to do the same exact thing to solve a puzzle.
>>319416325
This post is extremely retarded.
>>319416645
I'm clearly the only authority in this thread.
>>319416942
By what measure? Poorly done posts without any examples to back up your claims in any substantial way?
You're the authority on being a faggot, if that's what you mean.
>>319417062
>By what measure?
Because I said so. If you think Japan ever muster being better than the west in 3D games you need to try playing something actual fucking video games.
>>319417213
Where did you get that?
>>319417213
Not the other guy, but you're being retarded.
On scale, japan hardly pushes out 3d games, but when they do, its usually better than generic western 3d games.
I think you confuse 3D games with real time. Japan does even less with real time.
Japan pushes out quite abit of 3D games on consoles/handheld, most of them are turn based or limited. But still sell like hotcakes. Times when they do do realtime 3d game, like Souls/Bloodbourne, you get exceptional games that no other western game can match.
>>319417375
A general shift in market dominance from East to West? Japan never was good at crafting 3D games as well as the west. Looking Glass and Edios set out to make interactive worlds. Relic, Blizzard and etc. dominated RTT and RTS. Which never seemed to ever got the grasp of with efforts like GrimGrimoire and that shitty FF games for the DS or just the general lack of those games from them. When Square was making big budget movie like experiences in a relatively simple turn based format in the PS1-N64 gen, the west came and stole the whole scene from them with real time action big budget movie like experiences in the gen with better use of 3D.
Japan fucks up on a lot things. Even basic shit that would be pleasurable since Doom like shooting lots of monsters. Is completely hard for them to grasp. Just check out fucking EDF. They thought using shoulder buttons to look up and down to shoot was a good fucking idea.
>>319417942
>On scale, japan hardly pushes out 3d games, but when they do, its usually better than generic western 3d games.
More like it's either good but rather flawed like in the case of Vanquish. Or they messed with a subgenre that's laughably obsolete and no one touches anymore. Like dungeon crawlers with the Souls games. Which I think the only real competition it has would be Zelda for a similar comparison.
>>319418543
>the west came and stole the whole scene from them with real time action big budget movie like experiences in the gen with better use of 3D
You mean after Kojima taught them how to do it.
MGS literally pioneered the aspect of a game being also extremely like a movie. It is the reason why games attempt to even be cinematic experiences. OoT/Super Mario 64 have also been considered the best 3D games of their time, if not all time.
The west didn't do jack shit during the PS1-N64 era. PS1 was full on Japanese games and a few Western titles that are gameplay based (Crash Bandicoot) and the N64 was a multiplayer Nintendo-game console.
The West didn't even have an audience until the PS2-GCN-XBOX era, and even then they still shit on themselves until last gen.
The PS2's greatest games of all time are majority Japanese games. Some of the best designed levels are Japanese games. The West barely dabbles in corridor gameplay that doesn't even compare to the complexity of level design that DMC1 + DMC3 come close to. RE's level design easily trumps any other survival horror game. The Souls games (excluding 2) have the best done 3D level design and level progression of any game.
Dragon's Dogma is better than any other open world game of its genre, despite being an unfinished game. Meaningful combat, with an open world that is packed with monsters of variety, ranging from big to small and inbetween.
The west makes poorly written movies with high costs and shit gameplay. Even when they're given Japanese IPs they fuck it up every single time. (Capcom saying outsourcing was the biggest failure for their development)
The West might have dominated on the PC market, but when it comes to consoles, and the overall quality of video games, the Japanese have still reigned king. The West can push out all the movies it wants, but they ALWAYS hit the bargain bin after a few weeks.
>>319415559
I am shamed to read that my nation is only 15% more diligent than the batavians.
>>319418543
I disagree with your conclusions.
There was a general shift in market from east to west. But I'd contribute that more to dominance of computers. Japan's computer scene is left behind due to poor adoption rate.
Japan creates bad games but so do the west. It feels like the western games are stuck in infinite loop. Oversaturation of FPS 3d games. Oversaturation of WWII 3d games. Oversaturation of low quality indie games. We're now in the beginning stages of politically correct games.
Most western gamers like us barely play any games. Most of the games released are complete garbage here.
If its not generic shooting, its generic tolken, if its not tolken its generic social justice games. Literally garbage times these days.
>>319419385
Whether MGS was a pioneer or not is irrelevant in the state of Japanese games now. The west was busy dominating the entire PC market during the PS1 era. But the time PS2-Xbox-GCN came around and those PC centric developers touched consoles. Even primarily western console publishers went under. They not only took it by storm. They made sure they dominated the multiplayer aspect online/offline on PC and console. Something Japan could never do. Japan even lost ground with its 3D platformers. There was pretty much only one major mario platformer during the entire GC era. Super Mario Sunshine. Sonic the Hedgehog had a good start with Adventure and lost favor with critics and gamers alike. Even though I found myself enjoying the game. Ratchet, Sly Cooper, and Jak and Daxter plus various little shitty platformers were already dominating space in the PS2 mostly by western platformers.
I have no fucking idea why you are referring to DMC1 and 3's level design as complex. 3D beat em ups never got fucking complex in level design. In fact they always face flat in fucking level design outside of God of War making them aesthetically appealing to crawl through different locales and Ninja Gaiden Black actually utilizing the environment pretty well. The Souls games may the best real time action dungeon crawlers there are but how hard is it to innovate in a genre no one touches? Because Doom and Build Engine games had better level design in theory and progression than those games. Most open world games just stick fucking dungeons in the map for a reason. Because you can incorporate smaller elements from games from the past (the entire fucking dungeon crawling genre for this matter in nearly all aspects) into an actual game world with stuff to do.
I'd have to play Dragon's Dogma still to if it's worth a shit. Kojima's attempt with an open world with MGSV couldn't even stand up to Far Cry. The best open world series remain western. STALKER and Far Cry will always come.
>>319419385
>The west makes poorly written movies with high costs and shit gameplay
Basically most PS1 JRPGs then. By the way. TLOU was even better than MGSV.
>>319421748
>Whether MGS was a pioneer or not is irrelevant in the state of Japanese games now
Sick goalpost movement. You offered the concept of these amazing cinematic games, which wouldn't have happened with MGS1. It refutes your central point of a western-centric market. The main concepts are Japanese in nature. They wouldn't exist without Japan.
>Japan even lost ground with its 3D platformers.
This is painfully wrong. Platformers were a thing of the past. They had over-saturated the NES/SNES market. There was going to be a decline in those genres regardless because of the fact they were previously what the market was centralized over.
> 3D beat em ups never got fucking complex in level design
The only 3D beat 'em up that exists(that's worth talking about) is God Hand. If you can't get you're genres right, don't talk about them.
> face flat in fucking level design outside of God of War
Which is entirely based off of DMC1. Which is also nothing more than a corridor button masher that can't compete with a Japanese hack 'n' slash.
>but how hard is it to innovate in a genre no one touches?
It doesn't matter if no one touches the genre if there are still valuable game design aspects you can learn from it. You're missing the entire point.
>Kojima's attempt with an open world with MGSV couldn't even stand up to Far Cry
Literally unfinished.
>>319421987
>TLOU was even better than MGSV
Not in this or the next lifetime would that ever be true. The gameplay of TLoU is boring and uninspired trash. The story is subpar. It's overrated and painfully mediocre.
Sorry to say it, but you don't understand the market of video games. You talk a lot of shit, without playing or understanding the importance of each game.
>>319419907
>But I'd contribute that more to dominance of computers
In the beginning sure. But like I said already when those PC developers took consoles by storm. They changed gaming forever. People say oversaturation of this and that. But so fucking what? Japan had the same shit with JRPGs and the countless shovelware that Nintendo let out on their NES.
>>319423145
I don't know what you mean by "PC developers took consoles by storm"
Consoles still push out more games than PC and they make more money than PC. They're very much relevant today. PC might have had a jump start, but they are not dominating the scene by any chance.
>>319423145
If the west is only good at making one type of game: brown and green FPS/TPS with shitty story and the market is over-saturated in that genre, what will happen over time?
These western devs that are only good at that type of game will lose out on the long-term because that market will lose interest in those types of game, causing a shift to a different genre.
This is your "so what" if these shitty devs that made just corridor shooters have to actually put in thought to a game that's not a FPS without ever making a game like that one before it, it will fail 9 times out of 10.
This is the whole point, dumbass. If the west is only good at 1 thing, and no one is interested in that 1 thing anymore, no one will give a shit after that 1 thing is no longer the popular genre.
The Japanese have been dabbling in so many different genres, as well as creating their own genres from scratch. The west rarely fucking does that, it's either COD clone or bust.
When COD is unpopular, what is the studio that's being making COD going to make after how many years of pushing out the same game?
This is the big deal. Japan had to face that as well with the over-saturation of platformers, and then RPGs. This is why Japan has a better concept of why gameplay/gamedesign is more important than shitty western cinematic experiences. It doesn't last. It will never last. Good gameplay and game design will last until the end of time.
>>319423686
The west does sorta "create" genre, but its a failed fad. They "create" old school gimmicks that serve no purpose other than to appease their own nostalgia. They do a very bad job at it too.
>>319423917
That's part of why I never think the west will do anything important or interesting in terms of designing a meaningful game. The general creativity of western game development is dead.
Japan is the only one making games worth a shit anymore. Off the top of my head, I can't really think of that many western games that I'm looking forward to. And the ones that I am looking forward to are kind of a second-thought. They're more of a "yeah, that might be cool I guess" instead of being a full-on hype train for me like certain Japanese games.
>>319415389
for a normie that thinks "japanese games" = nintendo it's pretty much true, if we consider all jap games as a whole that's false
the real "problem" with japanese games is that since they are mostly designed for handhelds and mobile in mind (pc gaming just doesn't exists and "static" consoles like ps4 are dying over there) they can't do any grafix whoring (and this kills western kids in 90% of japanese games) because the hardware won't be able to take it, thus since they can't just play at which turd is shinier jap devs got to convince people to buy their games otherwise, by making their game more fun to play than the competitor or just doing what the competitor hasn't done yet unless there's some fotm fad going on they are ordered to cash on by the suits
>>319415559
I wash my hands before I touch my dick. Also don't pee on my hands.
>>319425239
>(and this kills western kids in 90% of japanese games)
meant to say "western kids interest"
Of course. Weeb games have been nothing but cancerous bottom of the barrel trash selling only because of fanservice and scantily clad sameface animus for decades.
>>319425239
PC games in Japan is mainly eroge. The term has been overtaken by them, so regular games hardly exist on PC.
The Japanese PC gaming is bit insular because of that and comes off as "weird" to non-japanese.
>>319425239
>pc gaming just doesn't exists
there's actually a fuckton of indie gaming going on jap pcland, and not the "HEY EVERYONE CHECK OUT MY NEW OPEN WORLD PROCEDURALLY GENERATED PIXEL GRAPHICS METROIDVANIA ACTION RPG WITH ROGUELIKE ELEMENTS AND PROCEDURALLY GENERATED CRAFTING SYSTEM" indie gaming we're sadly used to
>>319422451
>You offered the concept of these amazing cinematic games, which wouldn't have happened with MGS1
Considering that CnC had similar concepts and did it in 95. Would it even matter if MGS existed or not?
>Platformers were a thing of the past.
They still had relevance in the PS2 era as 3D platformers and what western developers did with 3D platformers during that era was more notable then the Japanese.
> If you can't get you're genres right, don't talk about them.
Beat em ups and hack and slash are literally the same genre. I have no fucking idea why you people separate them.
>Which is entirely based off of DMC1
Wrong. God of War has level design mostly based around visually appealing set pieces. DMC1 felt more RE inspired.
>Literally unfinished.
I don't care if it's unfinished. The entire fucking design of it sucks. They add the most unappealing open world you could possibly fucking think of. A desert with barely any shit going on it. The general addition of motherbase/soldier capturing blows like it did in Peace Walker. The balance between stealth and combat was approached better in TLOU and TLOU was a shorter much more focused game with even better multiplayer.
Speaking of uninspired. The entirety of MGSV felt like that.
Demon's Souls, Dragon's Dogma and Monster Hunter were the top games in recent memory
So no
>>319425970
Demon Souls and Dragon's Dogma are just WRPGs made in Japan.
Monster Hunter is single player grindy MMO shit with mediocre combat.
>>319426181
a game having magic and swords does not magically make it a wrpg
>>319426301
Didn't you know? FF1 is a WRPG.
>>319426624
>>319426301
The only games that Japan has made that aren't unequivocally shit are games where they outright copied gameplay, mechanics, and even aesthetics from western games.
Otherwise everything they churn out is just whyfoo fanservice pandering faggotry for brony tier autismal cancer.
>>319425883
>A desert with barely any shit going on it.
that describes pretty much every open world game released so far, i have yet to seen a game where the "open world" thing isn't used just to pad time when loading the the different towns/dungeons/whatever "closed" space where the game actually takes place instead of just showing you a load screen (unless it allows you to skip it altogether with quicktravel like most open wold games do, for a reason)
>>319426860
>this is what westaboos actually believe
>>319426181
>Dragon's Dogma
>WRPG
No Western dev with the possible exception of Ninja Theory would be able to pull of the character action aspects of that game, and you just know they would fuck up the story somehow.
>>319426860
What games are Demon Souls and Dragon's Dogma copying exactly
>>319425883
>Would it even matter if MGS existed or not?
Sorry to break it to you, but no one gave a shit when CnC came out. The market broke when MGS did though.
>They still had relevance in the PS2 era as 3D platformers
Never said they didn't exist.
>what western developers did with 3D platformers during that era was more notable then the Japanese
By who's opinion? Your own? Couldn't give a shit about your opinion.
>Beat em ups and hack and slash are literally the same genre. I have no fucking idea why you people separate them.
Go play God Hand, then go play DMC/GoW/MGR:R. You don't know what you're talking about.
>Wrong. God of War has level design mostly based around visually appealing set pieces
No, I'm literally not. GoW1 was inspired solely by DMC1. DMC1 is the grandfather of all hack 'n' slash and the first of its kind. The head developer used DMC1 as reference to create GoW. No one gives a shit about GoW's bland level design. It's gameplay though is all inspired by a Japanese game.
> A desert with barely any shit going on it.
I take it you've never been to a desert.
>The general addition of motherbase/soldier capturing blows like it did in Peace Walker.
opinion
>The balance between stealth and combat was approached better in TLOU and TLOU was a shorter much more focused game with even better multiplayer.
opinion
The gameplay takes the backseat in TLoU, in MGSV it's at least part of the main focus. TLoU is literally peashooter and shitty stealth, that's near nonexistent because the "toughest" enemy, clickers, in the game can be circumvented by just holding forward ever so slightly on the left analog stick while crouch. If you can't do that you literally hold down the listen mode button and just push forward as hard as you want. There's no fucking stealth aspect. TLoU is overrated and overly mediocre.
There's less shit in Skyrim and GTAV than there is in MGSV
>>319426939
>Weebs actually think they're any different from CoD fags and bronies
You make me laugh, permavirgin.
>>319426181
>Demon Souls and Dragon's Dogma are just WRPGs made in Japan.
Then it's saying something when they can make Western RPG's better than the West actually can.
>Monster Hunter is single player grindy MMO shit with mediocre combat.
Fucking kill yourself, kiddo.
>>319426181
>souls
>wrpg
>its got medieval settings therefore WRPG
WRPG is fallout/skyrim/call of duty/halo
Pls plebs.
><sweeping generalized subset of the medium> is bad/good
No. That's not how it works.
>>319423445
>"PC developers took consoles by storm"
PC developers becoming console centric.
>>319423686
I get you hate shooters but I still think the general transition for Japanese games from 2D to 3D has been terrible.
>>319416645
>Portal 2 is a step down from Portal 1
That's irrelevant. It's still a series that vastly outplays other puzzle games.
Protip: TLoU's MP seems some of the most unique, especially for an exclusive.
>as if you're providing Eastern alternatives
>>319417942
>Souls
Just because you haven't played games better than DaS is no suggestion on if there are better games. I'm playing Bound by Flame and having way more fun than with wait-to-parry, the game. However it should be described, DaS is full of pretty low quality gameplay that relies on hallway design so that it's a challenge, always forcing the player in to tight spaces instead of actually having fluid and creative potential. Maybe that's just because they could barely get the game at 30 FPS; and even on a platform that can get 60, the physics are tied to framerate.
>>319426907
>that describes pretty much every open world game released so far,
No, it doesn't. Take the liberty of playing some.
>>319427691
>Protip: TLoU's MP seems some of the most unique, especially for an exclusive.
wow third person shooter gameplay is so unique
>>319427083
> no one gave a shit when CnC came out
You're dating yourself faggot. Don't talk about things you don't understand.
>>319427803
>wow, an overly reductive post on /v/
>>319415389
It's almost like Japan is in the middle of a culture/economic crisis
Though I sympathize with PTSD I don't know what the fuck he's on about with bayonetta.
I used to play a few japanese games when I was younger, I don't tend to touch them anymore though since it just makes me cringe.
>>319427691
>Bound by Flame
Yikes
Is that seriously the best thing you could come up with? Were you betting on the fact that no one played this hunk of shit? Because I don't think anyone did.
>>319428040
Some of us did, and we know it's shit.
>>319425401
This.
"JRPG" is a blanket term for paedophile bait. Developers don't even need to implement good gameplay, as long as cel-shaded cartoon underage breasts are on the screen people here will empty their banks.
Yet the same people who purchase these games call "dude-bro" or "normie" purchases like Halo or Fallout "shit".
>>319427638
>I still think the general transition for Japanese games from 2D to 3D has been terrible.
With what examples? The only real argument you would have is Sonic, besides that what else is there?
>>319427691
>vastly outplays other puzzle games.
Opinion. For its style of gameplay, it's great. As a puzzle game it's lacking.
>TLoU's MP seems some of the most unique, especially for an exclusive.
How unique could a TPS be? Especially with that game's shit mechanics? I'll call bullshit. You seem to have shit taste to begin with.
>>319427919
No one gave a shit, and still no one gives a shit. It's not anything important in modern gaming. It will never rival the iconic games of its time. It's a hidden gem at best, but nothing worth talking about.
Get asshurt, fag.
>>319427691
>portal
>vastly outplays other puzzle games
The portals are a really fun hook, but it's incredibly under-utilized. The games are way too short and most of the puzzles end up being kinda easy and predictable. User-made puzzles might make do it better, but the vanilla game is pretty mediocre.
>>319428040
>>319428136
Great soundtrack though.
>>319415559
Interesting.
I mean, I'm not really surprised that frenchies and spaniards are filthy fucks, but dutch?
The golden age of japanese games was the PS1 generation, when SquareSoft was alive.
>>319427919
People are still playing mgs1 for the first time every day. No one goes back and plays CnC. No one talks about it on /v/ or anywhere. It failed the test of time.
>>319428232
>CnC
>one of the most definitive RTS games of its era
>one of the most well-known RTS games today
>hidden gem
Not even that other faggot, but he's right. You're a little young to act like you know what you're talking about.
>>319427774
unfortunately it does
>gta
pedestrians and vehicles going around are irrilevant, 5 changed that with some templated events that are still very localized and have no repercussions on anything else
>tes games
aside from some handplaced npcs the wilderness is completely empty and more of a grafix showcase than anything else
>stalker
npc aimlessly walking to another destination for no reason other than showing the player "something" he's not the only charaters everything reacts to, sometimes allows some different approaches to the objective but nothing just a big map centered on where the acton takes place couldn't do
in all of those games you could replace the open world with some hub maps and maps where the action actually takes place like deus ex/dank souls do and it would change fucking nothing in how you play the game
>>319428232
>It will never rival the iconic games of its time
cnc WAS the iconic game of its time and the one all rts released so far had always been compared to
>>319428989
>>319429381
The argument is about cinematic games hitting the scene and defining the mold of which every western developer strives for currently.
CnC does not mean shit in defining that aspect. It was a shitty point brought up for no reason other than to detract from the argument at hand.
>>319429381
Maybe if StarCraft didn't exist you would be right
>>319428040
>I can't git gud
Have you watched a reviewer play it? Absolutely awful. Brad from GiantBomb couldn't even figure out how to riposte.
>citing metacritic
Yeah, OK.
>that non-argument
Granted, I just started playing it. Yet, the combat is much more interesting than DaS -- and that's the point. It's also fully voice acted, has a legitimate story, and has challenging gameplay through gameplay mechanics instead of being a repetitive slog through low quality, repetitive, overly restrictive game design. Oh yeah, BbF has crafting as well.
>first boss fight of DaS
>aren't even supposed to win it
>first boss fight of BbF
>sets up a boss -- yet also archers and other minions that make the slightly shallow boss abilities not only more challenging, but also with a dynamic where the character can bait the boss in to taking the extras out
>>319428232
>>vastly outplays other puzzle games.
>Opinion. For its style of gameplay, it's great. As a puzzle game it's lacking.
Except, it's fresh and unique, while also including interesting story and voice acting. Feel free to list better puzzle games.
>
>TLoU's MP seems some of the most unique, especially for an exclusive.
>How unique could a TPS be? Especially with that game's shit mechanics? I'll call bullshit. You seem to have shit taste to begin with.
>another non-argument
How critical.
>>319415389
no, most western games this generation are bastardized advertisements. not to say the east isnt guilty of this too, but at least when they make pure cash grabs they slap tits on them instead of pandering to progressive fuckheads
Western devs are much faster to streamline and attempt to maximize profits with needless dlc expansions and fuck every fan in the ass
>>319429661
I don't think the cinematic games trend was inspired by mgs or any game. It was inspired by Hollywood. Let's be honest, kojima storytelling style, pacing, and cinematography is way too raw and unpolished for Hollywood standards. By contrast, western cinematic games all just try to crib Nolan shots and do that annoying Nolan thing where the movie starts in the middle to trick you into thinking you already care.
>ITT Weaboos on full damage control create fake responses to themselves so that their waifus will love them.
>>319427083
>Sorry to break it to you, but no one gave a shit when CnC came out.
But that's wrong. CnC put fucking RTS with Hollywood appeal on the fucking market with actual fucking actors in cutscenes and in the fucking game. In fact, it's fair to say Westwood did it with nearly all of their fucking games past CnC and they managed to achieve it before Kojima.
>Go play God Hand, then go play DMC/GoW/MGR:R
You misunderstand. Beat em up/hack and slashes are perfectly interchangable terms. They are not totally different genres.
>GoW1 was inspired solely by DMC1
You are literally bullshitting at this point. If you said Rygar I would have agreed with you in terms of mechanics. Level design lol no.
>I take it you've never been to a desert.
Yeah, they chose a rather shitty environment for MGSV. Especially when all the other MGS games had better levels and settings.
>The gameplay takes the backseat in TLoU, in MGSV it's at least part of the main focus.
You got those mixed around there. TLoU on its hardest difficulty is harder than MGSV with reflex off. The toughest enemies weren't fucking clickers. There was bloats that would literally kill you in one hit if you got close to them while sneaking and explosive AoE attacks. Then Stalkers (or lurkers I think they were called) had a FOV and could find you more easily. So, TLOU had a stealth aspect. It fact was the choice to take avoid some rather difficult encounters. Clearly, they weren't thinking of mechanics to be good in MGSV when they added fucking the pokemon catching in to distract the player with petty tasks.
>>319429934
Eastern devs are much faster to release an 'X' or 'ULTRA' version of the game half a year later that's literally the same game but with a few updates, 1 new weapon, and a thousand nerfs that kill all the fun shit because they don't even understand what's fun about their own game.
>>319429858
> Feel free to list better puzzle games.
Catherine. Professor Layton games.
Voice acting is constant one liners and shitty jokes. It detracts from the atmosphere portal 1 had and misses the entire point of what portal 1 represented. It's a fan service game, that's it.
>another non-argument
How critical.
Is it not a TPS? The game suffers from the fact the characters are meant to walk and run slowly so you can "take in the visuals of this artistic art that's so arty". It's a fucking joke. The game literally leaves you plodding through a swamp, even when there is no swamp. The MP is the same mechanics wrapped up in player vs player action. How fucking exciting! Bullet sponges here I come!
You're actually retarded if you don't understand the mechanical flaws of TLoU.
>>319430090
>I don't think the cinematic games trend was inspired by mgs or any game.
Literally look at what reviews and people's opinions of when that game came out. It might raw and unpolished for Hollywood, but Kojima is the first to do it. He's the first to even introduce that concept into the market. You could argue that Kojima was inspired by his 80s action flicks to do such a thing, but if it weren't for him to do it in the first place, such a trend never would have followed afterward.
>>319430410
>You misunderstand. Beat em up/hack and slashes are perfectly interchangable terms. They are not totally different genres.
Double dragon is not the same as DMC. They are not interchangeable, your underage is showing. They are two different terms for two different genres.
>If you said Rygar I would have agreed with you in terms of mechanics. Level design lol no.
If you could read I never said level design, I said gameplay. You're retarded.
>Yeah, they chose a rather shitty environment for MGSV.
I take it you know nothing about history either.
>>319430410
The guy is bit wrong about the DMC/GOW
Here's the actual quote from the Director of GOW
> “I was going for Zelda in terms of depth of combat. I was looking for the presentation of DMC, but I wasn’t interested in doing a deep system. To me, the combat, the spatial challenges, the exploration: they were all pieces of the adventure, and all of these came together to push the player along. The actual game loop in GOW is very simple. ... If this had been the kind of game that didn’t have much money, it would have been an absolute failure, because if it wasn’t for new things to do around every corner, you might feel the core mechanics are actually quite shallow. They’re intentionally shallow, because we didn’t want them to overpower the experience. ... Our combat’s not deep, but thanks to great animators, it is fluid.” >— David Jaffe, God of War Game Director
Basically a combination of DMC presentation and Zelda combat was the inspiration behind GoW. I don't see the Zelda inspiration personally, as I think its more DMC.
>>319415389
>Arkham City and Portal 2
Casualfags words should not be taken seriously.
>>319430759
>The MP is the same mechanics wrapped up in player vs player action. How fucking exciting! Bullet sponges here I come!
>as if Gears isn't popular
>or great
>>319430759
>>319430410
>TLoU on its hardest difficulty is harder than MGSV with reflex off.
Subjective, doesn't mean shit.
> The toughest enemies weren't fucking clickers. There was bloats that would literally kill you in one hit if you got close to them while sneaking and explosive AoE attacks.
Clickers also kill you in one hit.
Bloats while being a hard enemy are in no supply like clickers are. The segments that are meant to be entirely stealth are dominated by rooms filled with clickers and 2-3 runners. The clickers don't even respond when you bump into them.
>Clearly, they weren't thinking of mechanics to be good in MGSV when they added fucking the pokemon catching in to distract the player with petty tasks.
Here's why you don't know why you're talking about.
You talk shit about a bland open world, but here you are given tasks to do in a game to enrich the experience and make the landscape more than what it is. Open world games are filled the brim with sidequest shit, just look at the number of lazily crafted dungeons in Skyrim to enhance that point.
>>319431097
>Subjective
>>319431023
>>as if Gears isn't popular
>>or great
So what you're saying is I have a point, but you're going to deflect to a game no one is talking about, that is mechanically different from TLoU and does MP much better because of it to prove that you're actually retarded.
Thanks for outing yourself.
>>319431183
To say X is harder than Y is completely subjective. There is no such thing as objective hardness.
Let's say you play RTS games all day and you're amazing at them. An RTS game at the hardest difficulty would be of no issue to you. An RTS game to me (let's say I've never really played one) would be ball-bustingly hard for me.
Now let's flip it around, and I've been playing hack 'n' slash games for my entire life, and I can beat DMC3 on DMD with no problem. When you do it, you're going to wet your pants because you don't play hack 'n' slash games that much. I'll tell you that DMC3 isn't that hard, and you'll tell me otherwise. The same way I'll tell you that RTS game was really hard and you'll tell me otherwise.
There is subjective difficulty and it comes down to player experience. There is no one true definition of hard and what defines "hardness" of a difficulty setting.
>>319430729
>Double dragon is not the same as DMC.
No shit. When I did ever say they were? You people insist on separating the terms as if they were separate genres. Based on fucking what? Because you have a sword primarily in those games?
> I said gameplay.
But you're completely fucking wrong about that like I already addressed. GoW isn't similar to DMC. It's similar to Rygar.
>I take it you know nothing about history either.
The setting is still completely unappealing. If they took the approach of what they showed in Ground Zeroes in level design. I'm sure the open world approach would have been more appealing.
>>319431183
>>319431484
You're also missing the point of that image. The idea is to say that you can't say one game is objectively better than another, and it's all subjective. I never made such a claim. Some games are objectively better than other games.
That being said because someone said subjective doesn't mean it's a boogeyman word for you to drop your shitty screencap to monger your own fear and strengthen what little argument you present.
As said in the post first responding the image what is "hard" for one person might not be hard for another depending on experience and skill level. "Hardness" is a subjective quality, and what makes one game harder than another is completely up to the player's own experience and skill level.
Actually read what the argument is about before posting up "le ebin pictures of truth" so you look less like a fool.
>>319430759
So first you say that Kojima was the first to do a cinematic game and that's the only thing that matters, and when you're corrected and told that C&C did it a year earlier you say that that doesn't matter because Kojima was the one to popularize it, but now you're going back and saying that Kojima was the first to do it again.
Make up your fucking mind.
>>319428174
This faggot managed to list the worst games from both sides, that is quite an accomplishment.
As for the rest of the thread:
>Only people is this arbitrarily defined land mass can make good games, people from elsewhere can only make shit games
>>319431912
>No shit. When I did ever say they were?
Here, cunt
>>319430410
>Beat em up/hack and slashes are perfectly interchangable terms. They are not totally different genres.
>But you're completely fucking wrong about that like I already addressed. GoW isn't similar to DMC. It's similar to Rygar.
Also wrong
>>319430786
>The setting is still completely unappealing.
It is one of the only settings available for them to exploit that fits in the cannon.
>>319432082
C&C is a flat fucking RTS. It's not a 3D game like this thread started with. The fact that it was even brought up is pointless because it does not represent what the market is saturated with. No one is making cinematic RTS games in the same quantity as cinematic 3D corridor/openworld games. Kojima is the first to do it. Prove me wrong, protip: you can't.
>>319432494
If you're talking about camera angles, mate, MGS1 has the exact same camera angle as C&C.
>>319432942
So because two games have the same camera angle they're the same types of game and represent the same ideas!
I knew I was dealing with retards, I just didn't know how retarded, until this post came along.
What the fuck does a camera angle have to do with anything? How are you even going to sit there and compare the two and their cultural influences? Holy fuck you're retarded.
>>319428870
Every RTS game since CnC has drawn from it and been compared to it. Its influence is still felt in MOBAs. It 'failed the test of time' the same way Latin did.
>>319431097
>Subjective, doesn't mean shit.
Much like you adding your own personal feelings on how the game operates.
TLoU has better operating stealth when line of sight matters heavily for human enemies to see and engage you. In MGSV, one spot means they all know where you are at. Which is a downgrade over the previous games.
>You talk shit about a bland open world
It's a bland open world because games like Far Cry offered similar mechanics with less tedium and more and better mechanics. Shit like fultoning everything distracts from the game with a skinnerbox mechanic that barely adds to the game much like FO4's settlements. STALKER had a better open world with better sidequests, mobs, and mechanics plus setting.
Enrich the experience lol. The experience is fucking mediocre.
>>319433186
If you want to mention the fact that the game is flat and 2D and that MGS is 3D, camera angle is kind of a big deal considering that MGS1 is functionally 2D except for (surprise) cutscenes, which it fucking shares with C&C. The gameplay style of the first two MGS games are also completely unlike the gameplay styles of the modern cinematic games you're talking about, so you don't really have a whole lot on your side.
>>319433798
>adding your own personal feelings on how the game operates.
>Objective ways of how the game operates? Nah that's all subjective.
Gameplay is an objective measurement of the quality of the game, if there is something wrong with the gameplay that could have done better, that would be a flaw. Because you didn't mind it doesn't mean it's not a flaw. That's as objective as one can be about a game.
> when line of sight matters heavily for human enemies to see and engage you.
Not like there are actual listening mechanics.
Not like you can set up decoys to throw off enemies.
Not like you can accidentally make too much noise.
> one spot means they all know where you are at.
Yes, these military people have these things called "walkie talkies" that are meant to inform everyone in the area where an enemy is. Believe it or not, they work as a group, not as individual parties!
>Which is a downgrade over the previous games.
How? It's present in every single game, even MGS1. At least in MGSV you don't have to worry about onslaught of never ending enemies like in MGS1.
> Far Cry offered similar mechanics with less tedium and more and better mechanics
Like what? Skin animal X 3 more times to get cool new bag?
>Shit like fultoning everything distracts from the game with a skinnerbox mechanic that barely adds to the game much like FO4's settlements.
Subjective.
>Enrich the experience lol. The experience is fucking mediocre.
Subjective.
The goal was meant to add, if you didn't like it that's your own issue. State why it was a problem and what's mechanically wrong with it other than "wah wah i dun like it :((("
>>319433872
>I never pressed the triangle button while playing MGS1. Just call me DSP.
>>319433872
What influenced the last of us more, c&c or metal gear solid?
>>319415559
How can there be an N/A answer? Do they not have soap or water in some parts of Europe?
>>319434637
Being able to press triangle to look through the eyes of the character while completely stationary and not performing any actions sure is important and a big deal for gameplay in which you move and perform actions, you're right. I apologize.
>>319432494
They are still completely interchangeable terms. Nobody has laid down any mechanical differences in the genres. In fact, the term hack and slash is completely fucking pointless when beat em ups perfectly groups the games together.
>Also wrong
Not convinced even if he says it. Rygar came out three years earlier so they had plenty of time to copy of it. Of course he wouldn't mention ripping it off.
>It is one of the only settings available for them to exploit that fits in the cannon.
True. But it's objectively inferior to other offerings in mechanics while being a shitty setting itself.
>>319415559
Why bother with soap? Water works just fine.
>>319415884
Reminds him of the bayonet on his rifle during that time in normandy beach.
>>319415389
>PTSD
So, I... guess he was bumraped by a tall, black haired, glasses wearing shemale or something?
I suspect that experience may not be typical for the average bayonetta player.
>>319431484
>>319431915
>this thing can be subject to experience
>thus there is no objective measure of it
>>319431484
>So what you're saying is I have a point, but you're going to deflect to a game no one is talking about, that is mechanically different from TLoU and does MP much better because of it to prove that you're actually retarded.
>Thanks for outing yourself.
Nope.
Here:
>>>319428232
>How unique could a TPS be?
Then, instead of discussing the original point, the reply line brings up singleplayer as if it's relevant. Yet, the only problem listed with multiplayer is that it's swampy and bullet sponge-y. That's where Gears comes up. Maybe if you would've provided a criticism about how the game's actually unplayable or uninteresting -- but it's critically acclaimed, and you're trying to critique it with a few vague words.
>>319435109
>while completely stationary
Except for the fact that you need that to fight Psycho Mantis and you can use it to change the direction Snake faces to effectively aim at someone.
Fuck you're a dumb cunt. At least play these games before you talk shit.
>>319435147
>They are still completely interchangeable terms. Nobody has laid down any mechanical differences in the genres. In fact, the term hack and slash is completely fucking pointless when beat em ups perfectly groups the games together.
Okay you've never played either genre before and you're talking out your ass.
This
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNY0aNYBWXA
is the same as
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI-zQTQCfXo
Okay, if you don't think you're wrong than you're clinically retarded.
>Not convinced even if he says it.
I didn't know your name was Matt Patt. What the developer says goes, not what you think is the case.
> But it's objectively inferior to other offerings in mechanics while being a shitty setting itself.
What level of objectivity? What are its flaws?
This is my problem with the way you argue. You offer up this concept of objectivity, but it's only a fucking buzzword. You don't state what's wrong with the game and why it's something that needs to be pointed out and how it's a shortcoming of the game, instead you just lay your blanket "le objective badness :^)))" and feel no need to explain yourself.
>>319426181
>>319426301
Just because a game lets you raise stats, does not make it an RPG. The Souls games are Action games.
>>319415559
I'd like to see a map about honesty. I bet the Dutch would be on top. while turkey etc on the bottom
>>319435752
Difficulty =/= mechanics
Nice reading comprehension, faggot.
> few vague words.
I explained why it feels like you're trudging through a swamp.
A bullet sponge is self explanatory, an enemy that takes bullet after bullet without seemingly being damaged.
Just because something is critically acclaimed doesn't mean it's free from bad criticism.
Learn to fucking read. It's hard to argue with someone when I've already made the point and you refuse to read it.
>>319415559
>portugal at 85%
doubt.jpg
>>319415559
Nope, only when I poop because urine is sterile -> waste of water and soap to wash my hands.
>PTSD trigger
i got keked
>>319415884
Bad experience with a femdom gunplay.
>>319436247
Urine isn't sterile son, why would you think that?
>>319436136
>Difficulty =/= mechanics
>relevance
>>319436136
>A bullet sponge is self explanatory, an enemy that takes bullet after bullet without seemingly being damaged.
The multiplayer is like 3-4 shots. Again, the points might seem worth replying more deeply to, but they're just shallow and inaccurate, if not just blatantly misinformed.
As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter where a game comes frombecause it's probably shit.
>>319426181
>Demon Souls and Dragon's Dogma are just WRPGs made in Japan.
heheheheh
Here's a (YOU) for, you can guess... for you.. hehe
>>319436505
urine IS sterile when it comes out but quickly becames full of bacteria because it contains a lot of stuff that some kind of bacteria likes this is the reason why when you pee your piss doesn't smell but leave it for a few minutes and it starts to smell horribly
>>319415559
Non-shopped version.
>>319436525
>>Difficulty =/= mechanics
>>relevance
So then why bother quoting it? If it has no relevance to the point at hand why even fucking bother talking about it?
>but they're just shallow and inaccurate, if not just blatantly misinformed
>I don't want to argue about it because I can't.
Okay don't reply. If you have nothing worth talking about, don't talk.
>>319436967
I did reply, and you completely overlooked the points and potential discussion because you have some imaginary contest to win.
Protip: great discussion comes from an actual interest in the topic.
>>319435821
Using first person in the Psycho Mantis fight was unnecessary and only useful for telling which corner of the room he's moving to, which is more of an easter egg than anything considering that only dedicated fans of the series that have read a lot about it know that you can do that. Using first person for aiming, however, is entirely inefficient and downright dumb when you can perform the same function top-down without having to stop, change views, slowly turn, change views again, then shoot. The absolute only time where first person is legitimately a part of gameplay is when you're fighting sniper wolf, which is also a different style of gameplay from the rest of the game.
>>319436832
>Pootugal does it again
>>319437096
>overlooked the points
1 point about how many shots it takes to kill a player.
>>319437193
It's not an easter egg if the game literally tells you that it exists.
> only dedicated fans of the series that have read a lot about it know that you can do that
I did it when playing it my first try because the game told me I could do it.
> Using first person for aiming, however, is entirely inefficient and downright dumb when you can perform the same function top-down without having to stop, change views, slowly turn, change views again, then shoot
If it exists you can still do it. It's still something that has a purpose, even if that purpose isn't one worth talking about.
> The absolute only time where first person is legitimately a part of gameplay is when you're fighting sniper wolf, which is also a different style of gameplay from the rest of the game.
So then you further rectify the purpose. You have argued a point which you conceded yourself in the argument.
>>319437612
You called Naomi when you were fighting Psycho Mantis? I find that somewhat hard to believe.
And my argument was that MGS was functionally two-dimensional, and when throughout the entire course of the game you see maybe two minutes of first-person action, saying that my point doesn't stand is pure nitpicking.
>>319438615
I didn't call Naomi.
If you take the time to pay attention as you're getting to the part where you're walking into the boss room to fight psycho mantis the perspective changes to show the player something is different.
On top of that you can press the triangle button before Meryl turns on you to actually see the camera changes. I did all of that literally without anyone, other than the game telling me that the perspective was changed with that demonstration.
MGS isn't functionally two dimensional either because there are differences in height that attribute to the fact that enemies on a different level of Y will not notice you. This also applies to security cameras because some of them are placed right next to stairs. There are even parts where you're in a complete safe zone because the stairs are so tall/make up for a large difference in height between the first and second floors that you could stay on the stairs to wait out enemies without fearing of being caught from enemies below/above. It is not functionally 2D, to say so is a gross underestimation of the level of gameplay height plays a part in the game. You do not understand the game.
>le nitpicking
Okay back to neofag.
>>319415389
for me it's the opposite. I used to only play western games and ignore japanese games completley, thinking that the anime style was childish. Then this year I had enough of these broken western games that all look and play the same with "cinematic" stories, I was also intrigued by the Persona 5 trailer, so I played through Persona 3 and 4, along with several other JRPGs, I then moved on to games like DMC3 and Bayonetta. I now think that japanese games are superior to western ones, except for a select few(that are almost always european) western games are the same grey garbage, they all look like the Zack Snyder superman movie.
>>319415559
Fun site
>>319439635
Saying that the cutscene cutting between Meryl being taken over and Psycho Mantis's distorted view is telling you that you can look through Mantis's eyes in first person is akin to saying that the camera hovering over Vulcan Raven's tank after you leave is telling you you can press first person to see the destroyed tank after the fight's over and you're gone. It was clearly just a part of the cinematography showing you that something is fucking with Meryl. If you happened to press first person when you were in the two seconds it takes to walk through that hallway when there was absolutely no incentive to do so, then congratulations I guess, you happened to discover an easter egg.
You're finally actually getting somewhere talking about different Z levels, so congratulations on finding an argument that holds water.Funny seeing an MGS dickrider accusing someone else of being from neogaf.
>>319443405
>i have no point and wish to reply
This thread is filled with the disingenuous. Fuck this.
>>319415389
>Bayonetta triggers a guy's PTSD
>Gears of War, in which you play as a guy who is sent off to eviserate dozens of enemy soldiers, with the very real chance of getting curb stomped by them, doesn't.
>>319427691
>It's still a series that vastly outplays other puzzle games.
How so? Compared to the puzzle games of old it is casual babby garbage. It is only popular due to the characters and mechanics. The puzzle elements themselves are a joke. The 80's and 90's were the golden age of puzzle/adventure games.
>>319443703
Serious question though, do you have autism or schizophrenia? I can't think of anyone normal that would be so obsessive, angry, nitpicky, and self-righteous about something of such little consequence.
>>319426181
>Monster Hunter is single player grindy MMO shit with mediocre combat
found the kid that died to barroth
