Are gray villains better than black/white villains?
>>319288837
Yes they are. But not kreia because she is a bitch that says youre wrong no matter what you do.
>>319288837
No, they are not, over the top cartoony villains done right are charismatic and iconic, edgelords such as Kreia don't exist in real life.
Kreia is propably one of the worst characters in video game history. If I wanted to constantly hear what am I doing wrong now I'd live with my parents
Not necessarily.
Villains with depth are best, but those just tend to end up morally grey.
>>319289685
>says youre wrong no matter what you do
nahKREIA DID NOTHING WRONG
>>319288837
>everybody fucking loves Kreia and muh "deep" obsidian writing deconstructing star wars!!!
> hm that sounds interesting, lets play KOTOR2
>kreia is just looks like a whiny old bitch who flip flops all the time and is salty as fuck
Well, I did enjoy KOTOR2 in the end, but Kreia was such a hassle.
>>319288837
Depends on the game.
If the story isn't important I'd rather have a crazy villain with all sorts of evil powers with little to no explanation.
![270[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/43qkzIF.jpg "270[1].jpg")
Post good villains lads
>villain has good intentions and is arguably doing a good thing
then the villain isn't a villain
this discussion is retarded
>>319290114
I think this case the OP means "antagonist".
Calm your autism.
>>319290046
>kreia is just looks like a whiny old bitch who flip flops all the time and is salty as fuck
Kreia works as an antagonist decently enough, but she doesn't fit in the Star Wars universe where everyone's alignment should be light/dark.
>>319290335
This sadly. Kreia is a well done character, but Star Wars as a universe is cartoonishly black and white, and doesn't evoke a whole lot of philosophical thought. She stood out like a sore thumb in kotor.
>>319288837
Besides this and that one other bioware game where your master was rusing you all along, are there any good games where you have a mentor type figure who guides you through the game and praises you when you do good.
I really like that because it satisfies a need deep in my soul that I cannot get in real life.
>>319290530
Virtuous Mission of MGS3.
I'm sick of gray zone villains at this point. Everyone and their god doing them.
A simple, evil villain would be a a breath of fresh air.
What matters is:
The villain has clear and concise motivations. These can remain unclear until the ending, but they must then reveal themselves.
The villain acts to advance their motivations, and these actions make sense within the framework of their motivations.
The villain is capable of explaining why their motivations led to their actions. This doesn't mean every villain has to be the "DID NOTHING WRONG" type, it just means you must be able to understand how/why someone would reach the decisions the villain has. You wouldn't murder a puppy, but if the villain's family was raped to death by puppies, you can understand why they would.
And, finally, the villain makes sense and resonates within the theme of the story, and with the protagonist. The villain can't just be incidental, they have to oppose the protagonist in both action and ideology. They both have to be a product of the world they live in.
>>319289685
>>319289861
>muh feelings.
The issue was not with the character but with the medium and dialog options. It was essential that you say and do stupid things so she could explain why your thinking is wrong, but this was achieved in two ways.
1)by having Kreia berate you for acting like you're playing a video game,
2)by not giving you any dialog options that aren't stupid.
Both of which boils down to you being lectured for doing the only thing the game allows you to do. You HAVE to do stupid sidequests to get gear and XP. You HAVE to fly around with a group of retarded tagalongs and win their trust to get at the content gated behind it. You HAVE to pick column A or column B. In the end, you gimp yourself mechanically if you try to stay in the greys.
But that's the problem with the game. I really can't have issue with an ex-Jedi ex-Sith who criticizes dogmatism, zealotry and willful ignorance and asks you why do you care about getting a lightsaber.
>>319288837
no because they can easily dye their hair either way
>>319290917
I chuckled sensibly. Thanks Anon.
>>319290824
I thought the point wasn't to get Kreia's approval but rather to let you be aware that the gray area exists within SW universe. It was more of disproving the dichotomy of the sides of the force so you can make a choice of choosing for yourself what you want to be instead of being boxed into "lolgoodandevil".
Also Kreia being gray made it possible to have a LS/DS character and not make it seem out of place in the story.
obligatory
>>319290483
>>319290778
>>319290824
these exiles has it right
>>319288837
First, Kreia is not a grey villain. There is not a single good bone in her, there is not a single legitimate motive behind her actions, and she only tries to pretend otherwise to make you into a weapon against Nihilus or to fuck with you after you've kicked her teeth in.
Senod, no. All the most memorable villains in games are pitch-black. Of course, a black villain who convincingly pretends to have good motives (perhaps even to himself) can be awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EtByaOxiwE
>>319291232
>There is a whole fucking trilogy of movies dedicated to showing how Jedi human flaws and fallibility allowed their sworn foe to get an upper hand and fuck over the whole Galaxy.
>Both trilogies are ultimately built around the moral struggle in human heart.
>"making Jedi very flawed, human characters" is somehow something new in ST universe.
Obsididrones, ladies and gentlemen. Pretending that their favorite company had invented the wheel for the last 12 years.
>>319291237
Shallow villains like Shodan are more memorable because they combine a familiar stereotype with excellent presentation. They make for good entertainment but nothing beyond that. And if presentation fails they look like a cardboard cutout. Kreia was an out-of-place character in a buggy unfinished game that's effectively been declared heretical by SW fandom yet we're still arguing about whether she was right or wrong.
>>319288837
Only when done well.
>>319291889
He aimed most of his guns at wrong targets, but you're still a moron.
The force echoes trough the echoing echos of space!
ECHO!
>>319288837
they definitely make you think more because when it's just black and white the guys just being bad for a bad reason
>>319290108
>>319290778
I disagree. You are clearly working from the assumption that everybody comes into life in an equally mentally competent and rational blank slate and is then solely shaped by external factors of their life experience, that people who do terrible things are just "good people turned bad".
Bull. Shit. This is Naruto-level (gateway anime of the worst kind, etc, etc) moral simplicity, which has nothing to do with the real life and is not a good recipe for making memorable villains too.
Speaking of the original subject of the thread, Kreia was not corrupted by anything. She simply took a nosedive off the slippery slope because after every one of her apprentices fell to the Dark Side she simply could not conceive the idea that maybe, just maybe, she was the one at fault. The problem clearly was on the Jedi Order, the Force, and the whole damn universe, except for herself!
And let's look at other memorable Bioware villains, just to narrow the circle. Irenicus had no one but himself to blame for his condition, and not even Irenicus himself can provide any justification for the acts that let to his original punishment. The certain Glorious Strategist was a heartless asshole, who could have used his ability to fix the world, but instead was interested only in power for himself. Sure, you could understand why they have reached their decisions. Because they were egocentric dipshits who thought that everyone else in the world exists for their convenience.
>>319291232
But that's wrong. The Jedi are the peacekeepers, they are level headed, and they do make the right decisions.
Portraying them in any other way isn't good writing, it's inconsistent writing.
It's like writing an original superman story where he abused his power and killed people and then ranting about how superman is evil because he's in it for the thrill of killing bad guys. It just makes no sense.
It's not even an opinion when a Jedi turns to the dark side. It's a fact. The Jedi can literally sense the evil and hatred in people when they do. The only exception is when the person in question is incredibly powerful and can disrupt their opponents senses and mask their power.
>>319293241
>Kreia was not corrupted by anything. She simply took a nosedive off the slippery slope because after every one of her apprentices fell to the Dark Side she simply could not conceive the idea that maybe, just maybe, she was the one at fault. The problem clearly was on the Jedi Order, the Force, and the whole damn universe, except for herself!
Exactly. That's why Kreia was desperate to find a student to justify her perspective.
>>319292210
>And if presentation fails they look like a cardboard cutout.
If presentation fails, no attempt at moral depth will help a villain. While vidjagames naturally tend to have shallow villains, due to limitations of the medium, and more complex ones tend to stand out primarily because overcoming said limitations tend to involve unusual effort, I can raise you mountains of terrible anime, which tried to give its villains deeper motives.
>Kreia was an out-of-place character in a buggy unfinished game that's effectively been declared heretical by SW fandom yet we're still arguing about whether she was right or wrong.
The Illusive Man still sparks the same discussions (or at least sparked until everybody preferred to forget there ever were Mass Effect games), and he was a card-carrying villain from a game with shit plot, so I don't think this is a big achievement.
![ammonjerro[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/K3oJTd4.jpg "ammonjerro[1].jpg")
>>319290108
Best villain, best companion.
>>319293258
>But that's wrong
>it's inconsistent writing
as based off the movies, yes
however, the writers of kotor2 dared break tradition and try something more thought provocative by challengng the idea of black-and-white evil-and-good
at the end of the day you can call it shit because it didn't conform to old star wars standards or appreciate it for what it tried to do
>It's like writing an original superman story where he abused his power and killed people
no, that'd be the jedi being the evil butchers and the sith being the good guys, which is not the case in the game
