has one design decision ever fucked a whole genre as hard as automated group finders have fucked MMOs?
>>318145724
WoW ruined the whole genre in so many more ways than just that.
black desert save us
Haven't played WoW since Cata but is it really the group-finder? Isn't it more the trivialization of content difficulty that came after it?
ironsights
>>318146506
He creates, he ruines. Behold, Blizzard!
>>318145724
The existence of theme park MMOs did more to damage it than that ever will.
>>318146638
Trivialization of five mans is an effect of group finder.
group finder ruined
>five man difficulty
>Class identity
>five man layout
>server community
>open world
>>318146860
Now I'm interested. Post your face
Group finders save the day.
Way better than sitting outside of the entrance to a dungeon spamming LFG.
>>318146860
I've told you before, Kyle, I'm not interested.
It's honestly getting creepy how you keep telling people we're dating.
>>318147012
they are convenient at the cost of cutting the MMO out of the MMORPG
>>318147012
You're supposed to meet people and adventure with them, anon. That detachment from the community and outright refusal to engage them outside of "@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@LFG 90 WARRIOR" is part of the problem. Instead of finding a group you are isolated permanently even with a party.
>>318146529
I don't know anything about this game from what I see it looks like Risk Your Life.
>>318147120
Fine with me.
Get some people that have the same goal as me, sweet, let's get in there, get the shit done, and part ways. They're not needed for anything else.
>>318146529
didn't black desert go back on some core design choices people liked, and now people hate it?
>>318147263
Why play an MMO then? Maybe a different genre is for you.
>>318146638
>>318145724
Group finder or more so CROSS REALM group finder did destroy WoW in every way. It's run-on effect caused all of the other issues people have with WoW today.
It's just incredible that intelligent game designers that had been working on MMOs for years would think group finder would do anything but destroy the games community, challenge, sense of world and gameplay.
>>318147120
>>318147148
not everyone have the whole day to play the game. You sound like the people who's criticizing the legendary items and raids divided into partsç
>>318147386
Cross realm makes it worse, but even single realm group finder is a fucking disaster.
>>318147328
Why should I be locked out of a whole genre of game just because I don't want to talk with people? I just want to play the game and enjoy the story, which MMOs have as well.
>>318145724
Group finder was horrible but raid finder is even worse, how anyone would think that was a good idea is beyond me.
>>318145724
Crouch & aim tactics in fps games started by counter shit.
>>318147263
>goal
http://mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm
According to Bartle, a game's playerbase will always shrink when one of the four main player goals are removed or damaged. If you hadn't noticed, pretty much every MMO to come out in the last five years has instantly dropped into free fall. They can attract players but they can't keep them for very long.
>>318147386
From what I've heard, WoW's development team is mostly made up of people who earned their credentials making derivative games. They aren't intelligent game designers.
>>31814750
>why should I be locked out of a whole genre just because i dont like to shoot guns? I just want to explore the world and enjoy the story, which FPSs have as well.
>>318147501
This entitlement is honestly what killed mmos.
>>318146638
>trivialization of content difficulty that came after it
Content was never hard in Vanilla outside of the retarded prerequisites to get to Naxx. Content has been getting progressively more complex. What put WoW in the place it is in was Cata the stinker expansion, MoP the best expansion with the worst possible sin (not being le grimdark pandering shit for people that take the game too seriously) and then WoD was straight ass. Legion looks good, so bad, good, bad, good might be the pattern.
>>318147541
>WoW's development team is mostly made up of people who earned their credentials making derivative games.
You just described Blizzard.
>>318147501
The entitlement here is amazing. Not every game in the world has to pander to you.
MMOs are social games, if you don't want to talk to people then you don't fucking play an MMO.
>>318145724
People keep saying that dungeon finder ruined the game, but wasn't it the fucking community who ruined it instead?
No one forced you to use dungeon/raid finder, you could still use the traditional LFG chat system to make premade groups for dungeons and raids. They even still have summoning stones near instances. Eventually, people started crying for nerfs to said instances on the forums and Blizzard obliged since they are the paying customers.
>>318147653
>mop the best expansion
>legion looks good
thats some fucking awful taste you got there my man
>>318147550
Sorry for your lots.
>>318147386
As unfortunate as it was, and as much as i agree, it was a change that was necessary. Right around the time that the RDF was introduced, I was actually gearing up a Prot Warrior. It was fucking IMPOSSIBLE to find people to run heroics with outside of 2-3 hours on saturday afternoons. Unless you had a raiding guild who could carry you to gear you up, you were basically fucked.
With that being said, making it group you randomly was a mistake. Cross realm could have been fine if it was implemented like Mythic dungeons currently are in WoD. That is, there is a group finder, but you have to form the group manually and communicate with them effectively. Couple that with increased difficulty, and I don't think it would have caused half the problems it did.
Essentially, cross-realm was not the problem. Randomization was, by virtue of forcing Blizzard to turn down difficulty in order to make it usable.
>>318147739
You can't refute it though.
>>318147501
It's a world to explore and learn about in many different ways. Looking back at the older MMOs like Everquest, Runescape, UO, Ragnarok, or even vanilla WoW, you can tell that they expected you to wander around not advancing for a while. They were not expecting you to know where to go or consciously grind to the end in an efficient manner.
This eventually changed but the games themselves didn't, so it's more like a grind without a goal. You could say that the developers just aren't enjoying themselves like they used to.
>>318147667
Yes... I did.
>>318147701
And I know they don't have to pander to me.
I'm going to play it anyway. This is what I'm saying.
If the game type doesn't appeal to me, I'm not going to play it. If it does, I will.
Because I fucking love video games.
>>318147770
MOP
>FOUR RAID MODES
>LFD/LFR existed
>over a year of SOO
>pvp so bad the majority of the high end PVP community jumped ship
Legion
>ability prune 2.0
>garrisons 2.0
>scaling zones
>U R THE SPECIALIST SNOWFLAKE for every one of the 5million players
>>318147728
The argument that people should just not use it doesn't make sense, why would people go to the effort of doing that when they can just click a button. Putting challenges and forced interaction into mmos is a good thing because it promotes player interaction but if you remove that forced interaction players will just take the easiest route possible.
>>318147903
>>ability prune 2.0
Literally what? Have you even seen how many new abilities are being added? I don't think there's a single class that's ended up with less abilities than it started with, even BEFORE you account for the stuff tied to artifacts.
>>318147903
>LFD/LFR existed
So?
>four raid modes
So? They were all more indepth than any previous raids.
>over a year of SOO
That's not a fault of the expansion.
>pvp so bad the majority of the high end PVP community jumped ship
>[citation needed]
>ability prune
>by introducing more abilities and traits
>garrisons 2.0
>a function that is not at all related to garrisons whatsoever
>scaling zone
>just stating a thing makes it bad!
>u r the specialist snowflake as if that hasn't literally been the case since TBC when you felled literal demonic god powered supervillains
>>318147940
You do realize the reason LFG was added in the first place was people were struggling to find groups in a reasonable amount of time.
Waiting is not really worthwhile effort.
>>318145724
Dungeon finder made things easier, no longer people have to spam chat looking for a group as they afk in a town.
Now people can alt+tab and shitpost on the internet or watch anime until they hear the ding noise that signals that their instance is ready.
>>318148018
>>318148031
>it isnt ability prune 2.0!
Ret paladin, taking EVERY SINGLE active talent in legion, including artifact talents, has less than 20 active abilities.
Ret paladin in WOD, taking the absolute minimum of active talents, has 34.
No ability prune here boss!
>>318148119
Well personally I didn't have any issues finding groups but even if this was the case the group finder system is an inelegant solution to said problem.
>>318148315
20 active abilities you'll actually use as opposed to 34 that have ones that are literally just worse versions of preexisting ones isn't a bad thing, though.
LFM VoA 5.5k GEARSCORE REQUIRED LINK ACHIEVEMENT NO MORE HUNTERS!!
>>318145724
Bloodelves ruined WoW much more than anything else.
>>318148352
I suppose it depends on how saturated your playstyle is, but group finders don't do much to help with that either.
>>318148383
Name a single one of the current 34 active ret abilites that is "just a worse version of something else"
>>318147501
>Why should I be locked out of a whole genre of game just because I don't want to shoot people? I just want to play the game and enjoy the story, which FPSs have as well.
>>318148315
Ret is a 4 button spec in WoD unless you're counting cooldowns (You shouldn't be). Nobody gives a fuck about buttons you press so rarely you don't even bother keybinding them.
revealing ilevels, achi linking and gearscores ruined WoW and any other MMO that copies it is equally gimped.
Before dungeon finder you actually had to build people in your friend list and make friends with your guild members to efficiently get to dungeons.
After the LFG it became another threadmill to collect arbitrary points until you have enough to buy whatever gear you were looking for. They could as well be bots and you probably wouldn't notice difference because you would never talk to them or ever seen them again. It's more like singleplayer game than MMO.
>>318148165
So it is worse we already get it.
Pugs were just there for casuals, for players with no guild who not really cared to much to be like raiders until blizshit give them the option and know is all fucked up. is ok to have this option is diferent realms for example one with the system and other kind with just the normal way it used to be.
>>318148507
Which buttons does ret have so rarely they arent worth keybinding senpai? I cant think of a single one
>>318148421
nostalgia.
>Instanced zones
>Dungeons
Yeah nah
>>318148563
King, Mount, and Seals. That's 5 right there, and I don't even play a Paladin.
>>318148507
>ret
>4 button spec
Even just counting the absolute minimum rotation
>CS
>TV
>Judge
>DS
>exo
>HoW
>>318148532
>before you had to collect friends to get arbitrary gear
>now you don't but still have the option to
?
>>318148641
>king
Someone dies and is bressed, needs rebuff. Why do you not have this keybound?
>mount
im not counting that as one of the active spells, but should probably be keybound for convenience anyway
>seals
A bunch of AOE shit has spawned. You need to switch from truth to righteousness. Why do you not have these keybound?
Are you a shitter perchance?
>>318145724
They should have just copied FFXIV's party finder system
>>318148661
I dont get it either.
Just resubbed for a month to grab the challenge mode golds before Legion and I've been running the mythic dungeons with some buddies.
I mean, I could pug them ,but why would I?
And its not like shit was unpuggable back then either.
I pugged all 5man content in vanilla and TBC.
>>318148735
>>318147653
The difficulty of vanilla is often greatly exaggerated but in comparison to modern WoW (particularly in regards to world content and 5man dungeons/entry level raids) it is absolutely much harder.
The difficulty curve of modern wow is pretty fucked up right now; everything up to normal mode raiding is a total faceroll
(just try to die in any 5man dungeon) I joined a private server after leveling 1-100 on wod and it's a night and day difference.
>>318145724
UO's split between Trammel and Felucca had larger consequences in my opinion.
>>318148824
That was all 100% true senpai. Why you would not have any of the stuff you mentioned except MAYBE mount is beyond me.
>>318148850
>it is absolutely much harder
Nah, Mythic HFC is the hardest content the game has ever seen. The only thing that remotely comes close is release Sunwell.
>>318148750
FFXIV has the queue, and WoW has a similar group creator, since at least MoP.
It doesn't change the problem both games have, and that's retards who make groups to be carried.
>>318148824
he's right though
maybe you really are just terrible (but seeing as you play paladin, that was already obvious)
>>318148957
FFXIV doesn't let you queue for everything through duty finder though, you still need to PuG shit like Thordan Extreme and Savage content. Also, good luck trying to PuG anything past Coil.
>>318148661
>>318148785
Maybe people appreciate different shit in their MMOs. As for me most of the good friends I had in WoW were the people I used to run dungeons and group guest with while leveling up and gearing up.
Now it's like, solo level up, solo gear up, solo grind shit. Might as well be playing a single player.
>>318146870
Server community and open world were already ruined with cross realm BGs. But, yeah, group finder was the final nail in that coffin.
>>318148850
Everything up to the harder Heroic bosses is absolute Faceroll. That's why WoD dropped subs so fast, anyone who couldn't field a full 20 man Mythic team was completely coldcocked if they wanted to do difficult content. "Heroic" is too easy (It's literally balanced to be Normal mode relative to other expansion), Mythic is gated by numbers. Pretty much every middle-of-the-road guild on my server died for exactly that reason, including my own. A huge number of average players were just straight up locked out of challenge.
>>318149024
I said in my previous post that I didn't play a Paladin. Well I do have a Paladin at 100, but it's Prot, and I have every tank at 100.
>>318149071
You choose to do it all solo.
You are to blame here.
>>318148850
>(just try to die in any 5man dungeon)
Definitely possible in Mythic dungeons.
>>318149196
You try and find a group for a dungeon whilst leveling, all the people who would be wanting to do said dungeon are in it using groupfinder!
>>318145724
What really killed WoW was the cross realm bullshit they started implementing.
Servers lost all sense of community once you started seeing random people who weren't even on your server. It got so bad that Alliance and Horde now share the same AH.
>>318149346
Join a guild.
I have leveled with buddies plenty of times, either through RAF or the regular way.
A premade Healer/Tank combo blows everything out of the water.
The less random mouthbreathers you got in your party the better.
>>318149196
>Be that one dude in trade chat who tries to find group and end up partying with 3 dps for 3 hours.
The fact that there is easier option makes a lot of people less likely do it the other way around and even harder for people who would like to do so. So you just end up doing it the easy way. It just kills the community feel.
>>318148905
Yeah too bad it got nerfed 2-3 weeks into existence by rings. And now by ilvl buff.
We did not raid enough, we got to archi a week before the ilvl buff. We progressed on him a bit, and we could have totally killed before it, but it's bullshit.Blackhand myth was the best boss this expac
>Blizzard remove Seals and Presences
>M-MUH PRUNING DEAD GAME
>Add tons of active, procs and passives to the talent tree
>Even more shit on the artifact weapons
>>318149487
Sounds like an excuse.
I do dungeons with buddies all the time and I never have an issue with that.
Antisocial spergs bitching about not being able to socialize unless they are being forced to.
I think its really silly and I will never get those complaints.
>>318149460
Alliance and Horde are pretty much best friends now
>>318149575
>tfw DK
>Unholy is literally turning into Heavy Metal: the Spec
>Frost is turning into Virgil from Devil May Cry
>Blood looks fucking incredible
Crystalline Swords (Rank 1) - As you attack, icy copies of Icebringer and Frostreaper begin to float beside you. When you trigger Soulblade, the icy blades are unleased and pierce their foe.
>>318148480
>There is an FPS based on the world of WoW
>>318149717
The world of world of warcraft.
>>318148905
>>318149250
>hurr durr mythic is hard so the whole game is hard!!!!!!!!
>nothing else matters!!
This is a horrible attitude towards a genre that works best when there is a social hierarchy among the players. The content should be challenging from the bottom rung up.
>>318149705
Unholy is becoming the Necromancer I always wanted in WoW
>Passively summoning tons of weak, disposable minions
>A suicidal explosive charging zombie
>Lmao 2pet
>group finder is bad guys!!!!1!
>lf tank WC
>2 hours later
>lf tank WC and g2g
>30 minutes later
>lf tank WC and g2g
>healer bails on you
I know some nostalgaic faggot is going to respond and say it's part of the difficulty. Standing in fucking crossroads for hours spamming a sentence in general is not difficult.
>>318149575
>add tons of active procs and passives to the talent tree
do you not know what "add" means? The talent tree is still the the same size, and since you named all three kinds of talents they didnt "add" anything.
>only removed seals/presences
Removed from ret:
>seals
>blessings
>HoW
>exorcism
>taunt
>righteous fury
>divine protection
>cleanse
>turn evil
>sac
>used to be able to take an active talent in every row
>now you cant
youre a retard bud
>>318149624
Sound like excuse too. Not everyone has a ton of buddies to go dungeons with and with the new system you are not likely make any either.
>>318149816
>the content is easy!
>what difficulty are you playing
>uh duh, normal!
>there's a harder difficulty though
>WOW WHY DOES THAT MATTER
LFR and Normal is difficult to retards, which is exactly why those tiers exist.
Abused wife.
>Cata will f-fix everything
>MoP will f-fix everything
>WoD will f-fix everything if even they are openly announcing they're cutting half the content
>LEGION. WILL. FIX. EEEEEEEEEVERYTHIIIIIIING.
Y-YOU'LL SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Just keep chanting that mantra, maybe Buddha will fly down from the skies and strike down Metzen or something
People still care about WoW?
I thought we all unanimously agreed that WoW died when the Lich King died. Wrath of the Lich King was the peak of WoW in terms of subscribers and the game's design.
>>318149847
before LFG finding a group fucking sucked, so you were forced to talk to people and form communities. This is led to strong server communities and fun.
after LFG, finding a group was a single button. People talked less and less. Now servers might as well not exist outside of your guild.
>>318149895
funny thing is Diablo 3 apologists do the same with every patch
>>318148632
I often forget that public dungeons ever existed. Man.
>>318149983
people talked less even before LFG was a thing
people would just circlejerk post in their guild chat or private chat channel and only communicate outside of those if it's really necessary.
>>318150007
Blizzard fanboys man.
They were put in WoW because it took forever to form groups after 2 expansions and a base game worth of dungeons existed. There's no excuse for any MMO with only 1 expansion or less to do it.
>>318145724
> standing for three hours in Org
> LF UBRS
> LF Tank (healers leave)
> Tank joins
> LF Healers
> Keyholder DPS leaves
> LF Healers/Key
> Finally get group
> On Zep to Grom'Gol
> Someone has to go
> 4 hours wasted
Ahhh yeah the LFG experience
>>318150043
>people talked less before LFG was a thing
Did you not play during WOTLK? Do you think the whole gearscore debacle was playing out in guild chats?
>>318149858
>and with the new system you are not likely make any either.
As far as I know they havent removed guilds from the game yet.
People just choose to go solo and then they bitch about going solo.
You get no sympathy from me.
>>318149983
>talk to people and form communities
>"hey you want to tank for WC?
>"sure"
>never talk again unless the group whipes and somebody starts raging and calling people noobs
The only actual communication in vanilla WoW was coordinating with your guild during raids. You could do all of the leveling content without talking to anybody save for inviting them to groups, lad.
>>318150054
>having no guildmate to do that in vanilla
>choosing low pop servers
>>318149853
>Seals
literally a passive
>Blessings
see above
>HoW
trying to de-homogenize the classes since they gave pretty much every spec an execute
>Exorcism
you got me there
And then you go on to list a bunch of situational shit that you maybe use once a week, good job.
>>318150110
>hi
>my gearscore is X
>lol
and then they just stay silent in public/party chat unless someone calls them out
>>318150203
You didnt even need to run dungeons to level up in vanilla.
And grouping up for quests would actually slow things down because you'd compete with party members for bear ass drops.
>>318150054
oh god its all coming back
>>318150236
>taunt is used once a week
>DP is used once a week
>fucking SAC is used once a week
how fucking awful are you at this game? DP and sac should be used multiple times an attempt on nearly every boss and taunt on ret paladin is a raid saver tier ability.
>>318149895
MoP did fix everything though.
>>318150369
I want this meme to end.
>>318150369
im afraid the numbers dont agree with you.
see the huge fucking spike for WOD? Thats because MOP was so bad that people wanted ANYTHING that wasnt MOP
>>318149853
>Righteous Fury and Cleanse
>rotational abilities for ret
Holy shit are you fucking serious right now
There's a lot of rose tinted nostalgia in this thread.
WoW's community has been ass since it got popular with the normies (around the time TBC was happening and Blizzard went crazy with those celebrity ads on television/southpark episode). LFG only confirmed that the game's community was indeed ass.
>>318150054
I'm sorry that you have severe cognitive problems. Retards like you are the reason why the whole genre got dumbed down.
The correct way to get a group was:
>ask if anyone in your guild wants to go
>form a group and starting combing through /who lists for participants,
>maybe throw a few messages in the chat channels if needed, usually not
>>318150473
I love how only in WoW threads argument ad populum is actually something people think is valid.
>>318150480
Did anyone say the word rotation but you, you mongoloid retard?
Wait a fucking minute.
Ret wont have exorcism in legion?
>>318150203
>vanilla dungeons didn't require communication between group members
>>318150473
"Eat shit, millions of flies can't be wrong" - the post
congrats
>>318150761
negative
>legion is a chance for them to bring back anti demon shit to up that "class fantasy" they are pushing so hard
>instead they remove exorcism and turn evil
bravo blizzard
>>318150842
What the fuck. Doesn't exorcism fit the paladin stereotype insanely well across all the specs? Holy, prot AND ret? I can understand prot not having it now, but why should ret lose it? Exorcism is quite literally taking an aggressive stance against a fuckign demon and purging it. Isn't that was ret is all about? If anything, ret should be the only one to NOT lose it in the worst case scenario for paladin pruning.
>>318150761
>>318151009
It's literally been nameswapped to Blade of Justice, so they didn't lose anything really.. Maybe they felt like Ret should be more about melee and less about casting spells in melee range.
>>318151009
Blizzard doesn't give a shit anymore.
Have fun doing the same content in Patch 6.2 until Q3 2016, also have some $25 cash shop mounts released every month until then.
>>318151107
How is that a name swap? Blade of justice is a completely different ability.
>>318151009
Blizzard are replacing a lot of spells with melee abilities for melee classes. Excorcism is being turned into a melee attack called Blade of Justice, which is functionally identical aside from being melee.
Only Death Knights are really keeping the full blown 50/50 spell/melee design.
>>318151197
Blade of justice is a medium cooldown holy power generator that can be used from a moderate range.
Exorcism is a medium cooldown holy power generator that can be used from a slightly higher range.
You're right man, completely different.
>pre dungeon finder
>everyone goes for the most optimal questing path trying to reach max lvl
>grind through 7-10 lvls with outlvl'd gear until you reach the next big weapon upgrade via quests
>get boosted through attunement for T1 raid
>boosted through raid tiers by overgeared guildmates
>post dungeon finder
>free to do some fun dungeons in between boring questing
>get great loot to make questing faster and more fun
>look like a sauve mofo with dungeon blues
>really affluent in your role when reaching max lvl
>keep on doing a great variety of max lvl dungeons until you are ready for LFR
>>318151197
>functionally identical
>deals a different amount of damage from a different range on a different cooldown, generating a different amount of holy power
>doesnt have a proc to reset the CD
I'm not saying this is good or bad, a button is a button. But calling them functionally identical is dishonest.
>>318146506
To be fair, if not for WoW, MMO wouldnt have had such a gargantuan population boon and many MMO wouldn't have got made period.
More than likely they would have just pettered out and become a hyper niche genre with a really small consumer base. Like 4x games.
>>318150007
Diablo 3 fanboys said it just for the expansion, and were right.
Meme spouters are the ones who say it every patch since "New patch fixes everything!" has become a meme for diablo.
>>318151427
>It's has slightly altered numbers, so it's completely different!
Judgement no longer generates holy power (and instead gives the target a big damage taken debuff with 50% uptime before you cry P-P-PRUNING!) and the extra HP was moved over to E̶x̶o̶r̶c̶i̶s̶m̶ Blade of Justice.
IS THERE ANY NORTH AMERICAN WOW SERVER THAT ISN'T DEAD? It seems like only EU bros, chinks, and bots play this game now.
>>318151680
I didnt say it was completely different, it just isnt identical
The judgement change is good, a rare thing in modern wow.
>>318151778
Ret lost a bunch of situational and ultility shit (and they aren't the only ones, so they might be going with something here) but gained a much better rotation.
I'd say it's a fair tradeoff.
>>318151704
People from all cross the world play Nostalrius even though it's based in france, lad. i've seen amerifats, yuropoors, strayans, and chinks play there 24/7
>>318150187
I don't need your sympathy. I just pointed out why I disliked the system and what was a major factor in losing interest to the game that I used to love. I have since quit the game and not really looking for going back since the game no longer provides what I consider essential for an MMO. I can just play a single player RPG and I get everything I'd get from WoW in it's current state, without a lot of grinding and bullshit. If you like it, so be it, be happy about it.
>>318151435
>More than likely they would have just pettered out and become a hyper niche genre with a really small consumer base.
Bullshit
>>318151704
I mean you could always just check the realm list and sort by population.
There's always a few servers that everybody wants to play on.
Blizzard insisting on making so many new extra servers back then and them allowing people to transfer easily left many servers empty.
>>318152308
Game is still a multiplayer game that should be played like that.
>let's trade substance for convenience
>because that's worked for people in the past right?
BLIZZARD YOU FUCKING RETARDS
>>318152398
Did you not play MMO prior to WoW? Incredibly small but tight nit communities that were always losing in numbers.
It was the least popular of any genre and way to expensive to warrent making new ones. Hard to sell a product with the tagline "Its going to be really expensive and not many people will play it" blizz took a hell of a risk making WoW in the first place. They set out to make an MMO that was more accessible to the masses and they succeeded. Dont blame them if everyone else started copying them: even other MMO franchises like EQ.
>group finder killed the game
are you serious?
I agree with >>318150203. Unless you had voice chat, you wouldn't really be talking during the dungeon, specially if everyone knew what to do. Not to mention the lack of exploration when playing with others.
>Hey, let's go see what's in there
>"Nope, there's no mob/gear, come this way"
I usually played solo, firstly because I always had my own pace, like stop to READ quests, appreciate the view, kill more mobs than necessary, explore around, secondly because I liked the challenge. I started in BC, and played up until the tournament in WotLK. I always played a resto druid, and I didn't respec - I started leveling as a resto and finished as mostly one (except when dual specs were introduced, but I still had no specific feral gear). So it was amazingly satisfying to kill rares, elites and finish stuff by myself. Whereas if I had a group, I would have to be in the same pace as them, and the challenge would mostly be gone. In WotLK, I would enter old instances/raids and try completing them by myself. It took me like 1h to kill Ragnaros, IIRC, and the damage was mostly from Thorns.
So, to sum this up. I like the idea of interacting with others, but the idea of rushing through stuff (like most players did) is not fun for me.Before someone else says so, I could ask people from my group to go slower/to cater to me, but that would be selfish as fuck.
>>318148661
The option to make friends for running dungeons is practically non-existent since other people have very little incentive to do so.
>BLIZZARD BRING BACK THE OLD TALENT TREES THEY WERE SO MUCH BETTER!
>Artifact Weapons are an attempt at a compromise, they are pretty much exactly like the old talent trees with a ton of boring passives and 2-3 cool abilities and they don't replace the new talent system
>THERE ARE TOO MANY BORING PASSIVES!
Being Blizzard must be suffering. They actually come up with a perfect compromise and people still complain.
I mean I'm sure they can wipe away their tears with their billions of dollars, but it still must suck to try to come up with a way to make both parties happy, and then people still complain.
Do people just think this isn't what the old talent tree was? Are these the same kind of people who harp on about how Vanilla was the best when they started in Cata?
>>318153503
The problem with artifact trees is they arent trees. There are no choices to make. They can be 100% unlocked.
>>318150541
Thats not how it works you stupid retard, first of all even when theres 60 people online in guild, they are all farming mats for raids, doing BG's for ranks or just chillin, no one wants to do fucking dungeons unless they have to, you are forced to spam world chat and trade chat, you will sit in org for 2 hours minimum looking for group
Dungeon finder was the absolute best thing that happened to wow, they only needed to it server restrict
Themepark mmos are trash and permenantly ruined the entire genre.
>>318153603
Over the course of the entire expansion, yeah.
We have no idea how fast we'll get artifact power, if there will be some sort of weekly cap (lol of course there will be). It might take 2 days after hitting level 110 to get one of the major talents and then another 2 months to get the other two. Or you might not be able to fill out the tree until the final patch.
I'm confident there will be some choice involved, moreso with which path you go down first because it will be heavily time gated after hitting a certain point.
>>318153837
>muh sandbox mmos
if they were so good, they wouldn't be dead right now.
>>318146638
I blame it on the easiness. In MoP it was possible to 2 man all the normal-difficulty dungeons using standard gear at the normal level. It's retarded.
>>318148824
You must be like that hunter we had to kick on garrosh, who didn't have Binding Shot bound because "But it's a PvP talent!"
kek
>>318152828
>Standing around for hours waiting
>Substance
>>318153503
Blizzard definitely shouldnt listen to nostalgiababbies anymore.
They dont play the game. They dont want to play the game anymore and you wont convince them either way because they will always find an excuse to bitch.
If you completely cave into their demands you will get something like Wildstar.
I'm personally not the biggest fan of them because just like you said, they are like the old talents and they werent that amazing.
I am looking forward to the shit they unlock though. There's some good stuff in there for some classes, and Im one of the few who can appreciate some good passives.
>>318153890
Lets look at the possibilities
>option 1: no limit on the amount you can get a week
Seeing as this is a modern blizzard game, this has to be balanced so that a soccer mom playing a few hours a week can fully unlock their artifact in a few months. This means that people who actually play the game will finish their artifact in a few weeks. Choice doesnt matter.
>option 2: can only get so much a week/day
Hurray, timegated progression! Werent the mop/WOD legendary chains fun?!
Either way the system is shit.
>>318153942
Not binding Aspect of the Monkey would be a more apt comparison.
>>318154163
Whatever it is, the point stands. You should have *everything* bound as a matter of principle, it shows you're comfortable with your entire toolkit holistically, and not the kind of player that only knows his dummy turret rotation and spills his spaghetti the moment anything remotely unusual happens.
>itt people who are mad that the next big patch introduces wellfare epics better than their heroic raider gear
I remember everyone being mad when sunwell patch added badge pants that were better than T5.
>>318154105
>Option 2
>You will have to chose
>BUT THAT DOESN'T MATTER!
I'm not defending timegated content, I'm just saying there will be some degree of choice so they are an apt subsitute for the old talent trees.
And the point wasn't about how much choice there is, the point is that people are complaining about how many "boring" talents there are, this is exactly what the classic trees were like.
Played WoW for the first time just after WoD and I honestly can't imagine just sitting outside a dungeon entrance and waiting for enough people to show up so you can do it. Much easier to just use matchmaking and playing healer and tank with a friend meant it took barely a minute to find a raid.
>>318154024
I'm just not happy with how they're basically made a habit of ripping up their major systems every patch.
In WoD we had invisible draenor perks that modify talents that aren't listed anywhere at all, in Legion presumably those are going away and now there's a whole new talent tree on your artifact weapon instead.
I can only bet that after Legion that artifact tree is going to go away too, and they'll have to find yet another way to bake our existing toolkit into yet another new system.
There's no stability and persistence at all, as much as innovation is good for the genre I hate every expansion being basically a one-trick pony with no persistence.
It was nice being something like 31/0/20 in vanilla and being able to project into the future like "Hey cool, once BC comes out I'll get to try out 41/0/20".
>>318154376
So I should be keybinding Death Gate? What about mage Portals? Out of Combat res? Should a ret Paladin bind Righteous Fury?
No, you're just autistic. You're just wasting keybinds which could be used for more important things if you bind everything.
>>318154562
There were some small merits to the old system, because the servers were all isolated you could meet friends and play with them again and just recognize people, it felt like more of a community.
But yes, sitting around for 2 hours trying to find a healer for Scholomance and then your tank had to leave so you had to look for someone else and then you went in and the tank was awful and you wiped a bunch so the healer left and then you just wasted like 5 hours doing nothing.
LFG didn't fuck shit up because it was still restricted to your server initially. It's when they made everything cross realm.
>>318154816
>Should a ret Paladin bind Righteous Fury?
It's funny you should mention that, because the big shitpost that started this debate had Righteous Fury listed as one of the "Active" abilities that Ret Paladin lost.
>>318154562
You wouldn't because half your group would be filled from your friend list or guild. Only needed to look for couple of more people and there was a LFG channel (so you wouldn't need to sit at the entrance). If they performed well / were nice chances are they'd end up in your friend list too, making it even easier to find groups next time.
This usually wasn't the case for level up dungeon tho (you'd have someone boost you through, again from your friend list). There was no need for so many randoms, whereas now all you play with is randoms.
>>318154895
Why did making LFG cross realm fuck up everything? (serious question, new player)
>>318154816
If you keybind things the proper way - that is to say, having the same binds across different bars and using shift-# to switch to the right bar between gcds - you shouldn't run out of ergonomic hotkeys at all.
Just put your portals and non combat stuff on something far back like the 4th hotbar you'd never switch to in combat.
If you're one of those people that aren't dexterous enough for the above and need a unique hotkey for everything, and end up having shift/alt/ctrl modifiers out the wazoo, then yeah you're out of luck. But then again you're using an inferior framework in the first place.
>>318154776
I dont think its too much of an issue.
Some systems will stay, some wont.
I'd rather have them change things up rather than keeping flawed shit just because.
It all depends though.
In this specific case it is a little bit lame because as you said its already clear that we wont keep artifacts the way they work in the future.
What matters more to me is the actual changes that come with it though.
Like, I dont give too much of a shit how I get those passives, be it leveling perks or weapon perks.
As long as I get them and they are interesting I'm fine with it.
>>318155041
Well, there was no more reason to even try to interact with people. Why would you be nice to people when you'll probably never see them again in your entire time of playing WoW? Why not ninja loot off of them? Not like it'll matter.
And it's not just LFG, it's EVERYTHING. They made PvP and even fucking leveling zones cross realm now. 99% of the people you see, you'll never interact with again.
In Vanilla if you were a huge cunt to people or stole loot, word would spread. Nobody would want you in their groups. Some people actually had to fucking move servers their reputation was so bad, no joke.
And in PvP you'd form rivalries with enemies and maybe even make friends with the opposite faction and log over to an alt and talk to them.
None of that shit happens anymore. And it's fuck all to do with MUH LFG KILLED THE GAME!!!!!, it's because everything is cross realm now.
>>318145724
The problem wasn't LFG, the problem was the fucking community who stopped bothering with LFG chat channels.
This is why I didn't get very far in Final Fantasy XIV. I like the series played every game to completion (FFXI I count as completed because of the last update)
I could get so much more done in a game in the time I waited in a queue as a DPS, also the fact that these guys I'm playing with I'll probably never see again so they may as well be NPC's. Even the game in cutscenes makes it out like it's referring to your "friends" as NPC's who come and go.
>>318155413
>Waiting in queue as a DPS
I'm so sorry that you never experienced instant queues with a tank or healer buddy. The great thing about XIV is that they don't do this cross realm bullshit that WoW does, so server communities are still a thing.
Pet battles is the best thing that happened to WoW.
>>318149057
Hey, guess what JP's are already pugging Alexander Savage and even calls out NA's on their shittiness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPlInJNc1Vc
>>318147012
I agree with this and im one of those classic EQ veteran that wasted afternoons on a waiting list to get in a group...
>>318155496
>The great thing about XIV is that they don't do this cross realm bullshit that WoW does, so server communities are still a thing
The DF totally draws from a collection of servers though
>>318155736
That's duty finder, party finder is still a thing and not everything can be queued for in duty finder.
>>318155496
I know about cross classing
But I wanted to play as a DPS.
Anyway dropped the game around 2.1 wont be coming back. From the looks of the forum the new patch sounds really shitty so I'll stick to the single player FF's from now on unless XI ever got a new patch after the finale a few weeks ago.
>>318155496
>FF14
>communities
Good one.
Nobody ever talks in 4man dungeons and there's very little reason to actually socialize outside of the 8man endgame raids anyways.
>>318155792
Not everything can be queued for in dungeon finder in WoW either.
>>318155862
I'm sorry you played on a shitty datacenter
I think the worst thing to happen to MMOs is when the story entirely revolves around your character, as we're seeing now with the latest WoW expansions, and a slew of deadgames where "YOU R THE CHOSEN 1."
Can't be a coincidence that being a small part of a larger puzzle (both the game itself and evident still with smaller guild ecosystems) spawned the largest and most populated MMO of all time.
I hate to jump on the 'entitled' train, but what the fuck happened to gamers where they needed to be patted on the head and get a complementary blow job for doing the most basic shit.
>>318150338
If your Ret of all things has to taunt then your tanks fucking suck. At least Warrior's have Die by the Sword and DK's have Frost Presence/Purgatory, Ret's have no way of surviving a boss melee attack so why the hell should they taunt
>>318155591
On the topic of XIV, not that its raids are much better, but playing it really hammered home to me how much of the difficulty in WoW is artificial due to large raid sizes giving you more chances to fuckup.
Goddamn I got sick of learning a fight in a handful of tries and then twiddling my thumbs for the next 100 attempts for the shitters to catch up.
At least in XIV's 8m raids you can curate your raid a lot better. Churn is a huge issue in 20m mythics and I got fed up of constantly carrying deadweight.
>>318156118
Ret is actually getting an ability that both taunts everything nearby and makes them invulnerable for 8 seconds. The people whining are literally whining about nothing.
>>318147701
>MMOs are social games.
Only seems so because graphical MMO ruined exploration. You can play a lone explorer just fine in muds. In fact this type of player was often the most knowledgeable.
>>318145724
Datamining fucked MMOs harder than anything else brah.
>>318156183
I thought that was Prot only? Or is that Divine Shield talent just something for all specs?
>>318155862
>Not everything can be queued for in dungeon finder in WoW either
true, but with everything being cross realm now and garrisons/lfr killing communities what's the point?
>>318156218
MUDs aren't true MMOs you shit.
WoW was a social game and now it's a themepark.
>>318145724
Yes.
Raid Finder.
"Let's offer the super casual players a fast-track to Ultra Easy Mode! ...Wait, why are they quitting in droves? They only cleared the raid once! Why aren't they farming to work towards Normal or Heroic Modes?!"
>>318156335
What was ever the point?
Kill dragons with buddies.
Stop being a LFR bottomfeeder retard.
>>318155963
I'm sorry that you actually think that FF14 is anything but shit.
>>318156298
I just checked. It's either changed or I'm remembering wrong. Prot gets something similar, but it doesn't make you invulnerable, but instead reduces the remaining cooldown on Divine Shield. Ret doesn't have it.
I could have sworn.
>>318156423
>Muds aren't MMO
>But instancing splintered world like WOW is
>>318156423
WoW has never not been a themepark.
Retards dont even know what the term means.
>>318151435
>if it wasn't for WoW all those hot air MMOs that were destined to fail would have never been made
>if it wasn't for WoW we wouldn't have 857395 samey titles and actually be able to build a community in one out of 5 games or something
Yeah, truly a shame
It's always great when a genre gets stagnated to shit, great post anon
>>318155963
What is a good Datacenter? I've been taking my time leveling various Jobs before I look into any raiding in FFXIV, but what's a solid one? Currently on Exodus.
>people on /v/ are now unironically arguing that MMOs being less social is a good thing
I didn't mind LFG when the content was fun. You never knew how a Halls of Reflection with a handful of retards was gonna go. That lasted through most of Cata, with opening heroics that actually required attention, and after they were nerfed due to outcry they were immediately replaced with the Troll raid remakes that people hated even more. The first couple weeks of Jin'do the Pugbreaker were glorious. I had a blast during these periods because the content was at least engaging and random people meant it was always different.
I think the real downfall was appealing to the people who only wanted 15-minute guaranteed no-wipe runs to get what they needed and never do dungeons ever again. Eventually LFG was completely replaced with LFR, which only resulted in the end-game becoming that much more stale when you only run raids to get gear to do the non-retard version of that raid to get gear to do the same raid again but actually challenging. I miss doing dungeons in my spare time just for the fun of playing the game, in the same way many do random battlegrounds for fun with no desire to do rated. Mythic dungeons and the time-trials are good content for organized groups, but the game really needs a form of casual PVE entertainment that isn't completely braindead.
They've pushed more and more for raids being the only content that actually matters, when the fact is during the game's most successful times most players never even saw a raid. The fact is they've spent so much time making entry easier for a facet of the game that most people never really cared about entering, simply because it's easier to make 3 number-swaps of the same raid than to make additional worthwhile content a large amount of people can enjoy.
>>318156534
I remember seeing that too but that was an early list of datamined shit, which everyone at Blizz said "yeah a lot of that has been scrapped so don't get too crazy". If that went live that would trivialize about every tank mechanic I can think off.
Oddly enough, that "Ret gains 100% Damage when someone dies" spell is still apparently there though.
>>318156720
That post is 100% right though.
Gameplay wise, Vanilla was fucking garbage compared to WoW now.
The social aspect was fucking incredible and I'd love to have it back, but it was a pretty poor game when compared to even WoD.
5 man bosses have harder mechanics than the entirety of MC these days.
>>318156664
Aether
Gilgamesh is the most PvE focused NA server
Balmung is the most RP focused NA server
>>318156920
>Oddly enough, that "Ret gains 100% Damage when someone dies" spell is still apparently there though.
I'm fine with that. It's only for like 6 seconds, and ret is getting a 1.5 sec GCD before Haste, so in reality it's not that different than them getting 6 seconds of Bloodlust when some dickhead stands in the fire.
It's a neat clutch ability that works well with Shadow Priests' Insanity.
>>318156920
>Oddly enough, that "Ret gains 100% Damage when someone dies" spell is still apparently there though.
This could potentially lead to the most retarded class stacking.
Imagine if there's a boss that has a really tough execute phase on a strict timer.
Could bring 10 ret Paladins and then make a healer go suicidal and effectively turn the 10 rets into 20 for that phase.
>>318157065
>>318157131
It'll be changed into like 25% or something, no way it's gonna go live like that now.
>>318157131
Not a healer. Shadow Priest.
"Surrender to Madness : Surrender to the Old Gods, sacrificing your soul for ultimate power. All your Insanity-generating abilities generate 300% more Insanity, until you exit Voidform, then you die. Requires Voidform."
![FKldPSE[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/TKwQ0Mx.png "FKldPSE[1].png")
A lot of legion shit looks cool but most of it is gonna get cut anyway
>>318157379
A Shadow Priest will want to time it so that he dies exactly the second the boss goes down. Otherwise you just waste DPS.
At best you could pair it with a battleres on the Shadowpriest.
>>318157457
And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Our Dead (Rank 1) - Your attacks have a chance to summon an Army of the Dead.
yeaaaahhhh
>>318156890
God WoW really needs more meaningful small group content. Early Cataclysm was the best with actually hard heroics and blue gear that was relevant (at least in that short, pre-first tier of raids period of time).
I'll never understand their fascination with large sized raids, they were shitting on 10mans all the way when the 10m/25m split was a thing, and now they've doubled down on 20m mythic.
>>318157539
>>318157562
>they were shitting on 10mans all the way when the 10m/25m split was a thing, and now they've doubled down on 20m mythic.
You can blame the players for that.
Blizzard were trying to keep 10 and 25man going but everybody kept on bitching about how X is harder or easier on 25/10 man.
That shit has been a constant topic ever since they added them and now blizzard simply made it one size and now everything is ass.
I really dont like it when they cave into community demands too much because more often than not the community is shit and retarded.
Just look at the zombie event.
>>318157946
I hate the sound of that. A 3 minute cooldown with a 3 minute duration is garbage, if you ever have to move away from it you lose a huge chunk of DPS.
>>318157457
>>318157539
People who are saying Legion is pruning obviously haven't checked out some of the artifact shit.
This is gonna be an absolutely cuhrazy expansion. Artifacts are turning it up to 11.
Blood DKs get two dancing rune weapons that also last 3 times longer, Fire Mages get Flamestrikes that 5x Multicast, Elemental Shaman can summon THORIM BECAUSE HE REMEMBERED THEM IN THE MOUNTAINS.
It's all cool shit.
>>318158226
It's a PvP talent anyway. It'll be godlike for holding points in certain BGs.
>>318158226it's a pvp talent
>>318158226
All depends on how long the range is.
![br7s6nx[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/SASU61D.png "br7s6nx[1].png")
is this vanilla
To be fair, some dungeons were impossible to find a group for on a single realm.
>>318158526
no blizzard just sucks the cock of RNG too much look at Shillstone.
Flying mounts in mmos.
>People claim people talk in dungeon finders
>If they do talk it's "nyaaan heyaaa how are you XD"
>people want this
No, that isn't better than not talking at all.
It's far worse.
Not to mention you're not going to have any "real" conversation about anything during the course of a dungeon, which lasts at most 30 minutes usually.
"hahaha funny glitch!!!!" isn't conversation.
And neither is running into the same person, that you know nothing about, several times, and going hey bro I saw you in x dungeon before.
tl;dr, you still have to develop friendships unless you want the equivalent of normie small talk about the weather in an MMO, dungeon finder or no.
>>318148905
>Nah, Mythic HFC is the hardest content the game has ever seen. The only thing that remotely comes close is release Sunwell.
Said by someone who either didn't raid in Vanilla/TBC before nerfs. You don't know what you're fucking talking about.
Shits retarded easy, its why everyone fucking quit.
>>318158320
>>People who are saying Legion is pruning obviously haven't checked out some of the artifact shit.
>
>This is gonna be an absolutely cuhrazy expansion. Artifacts are turning it up to 11.
>
>Blood DKs get two dancing rune weapons that also last 3 times longer, Fire Mages get Flamestrikes that 5x Multicast, Elemental Shaman can summon THORIM BECAUSE HE REMEMBERED THEM IN THE MOUNTAINS.
>
>It's all cool shit.
Now before you get all excited I have a few words : Path of the Titans.
>>318145724
>m-muh community!!!
Fuck off, when I'm playing a game I don't want to interact. I want the MMORPG without the MMO.
If I wanted to be social I'd go out and attempt to be a normalfag.
>>318161871
They already said nothing is gonna be cut. They never spoke a word about ANYTHING post gamescom, cause they said they weren't going to announce anything that might not make it into the game.
Pretty much 99% chance of anything announced at Blizzcon making it into the final game.
>>318162075
>Pretty much 99% chance of anything announced at Blizzcon making it into the final game.
Yeah tell that the dance studio and pvp flight combat, and path of the titans and some of the raids they've announced like azjol nerub or they abyssal sea.
This your first blizzard expansion?
>>318162235
None of those things ever made it out of Alpha though. Artifacts have.
>youll never go back 10 years and play a fun community oriented mmo again for the first time
>>318162419
>None of those things ever made it out of Alpha though. Artifacts have.
Lots of things make it out of alpha, the state they end up in is the key point you're dancing around trying to pretend this hasn' all happened before.
Welcome to the stable time loop sucker.
>>318162661
After the disaster that was WoD, they went completely silent on Legion till Blizzcon. Instead of saying THE GAME IS GONNA HAVE THIS AND THIS AND THIS AND THIS AND THIS like a kid listing off which anime characters should be in Smash Bros, they never mentioned anything that wasn't already in Beta.
Being pessimistic is fair enough, countless times they've promised features and then dropped them because they never even made it off the drawing board. But artifact Weapons are in the beta right now, they're not suddenly just gonna cut them because they all just sit around in dimly lit rooms twirling their mustaches cackling at the prospect of cutting more features you jaded cunt.
>>318163172
>Being pessimistic is fair enough, countless times they've promised features and then dropped them because they never even made it off the drawing board. But artifact Weapons are in the beta right now, they're not suddenly just gonna cut them because they all just sit around in dimly lit rooms twirling their mustaches cackling at the prospect of cutting more features you jaded cunt.
Whoa whoa haaaaaaaaaarsh. Its not about whether or not it makes it live, because its coming to live. Its about whether its a fun interesting gameplay mechanic or total shit.
Just because they promise and it makes it live means absolutely fucking nothing if it doesn't make it live in a way that's fun to play.
>>318161017
>people who quit claiming that others are talking about content they havent done
Too hilarious.
>>318162235
>still being hung up on the shitty dance studio
>>318163495
Again, you're making it out as if they are going to purposely sabotage what they already have.
Even if they cut out raining infernals or whatever doesn't change the fact the new talent and the artifact system are already made. They're not just gonna scrap what they already have because ???, obviously they already said a bunch of talents and datamined stuff have already been changed or replaced on the latest build, the core thing is there, with entirely PvE trees and Artifact trees.
>>318164084
>Again, you're making it out as if they are going to purposely sabotage what they already have.
They do actually all in the name of balancing because after the abomination that was arena got released the pvpers never shut the fuck up again.
>>318147148
>You're supposed to meet people and adventure with them, anon.
Maybe you were, but we all know that it's really only possible in controllable environment, where community either governs itself or has a much deeper connection with the dev that controls the meta. In either case it would mean much smaller samples, which would not satisfy post-wow devs.
I can only thing of 2 possibilities to fix that: you can either base your game around filters, that would discard most of the casuals who would want to try your game OR MMOs need to become much MUCH more skill-based and unfair. By unfair I don't mean the difficulty, but balance itself, where you have to actually dedicate yourself to get a better loot, communicate, band together. Guilds should have actual influence in the world, like corporations and alliances in EVE, not just be an expanded friend list for raiding dungeons.
>>318164208
Which is why they are adding PVP talents to seperate PVE from PVP balance.
>>318164208
And now they're getting PvP talent trees, which is one of the things I'm happy about. Because it means pure PvE talent trees where PvP balance doesn't fuck everything up.
>>318156465
Those same players would have quit after wiping to the first boss of a normal mode raid a bunch anyway
Good riddance
>>318164368
Come to think of it, what happens when a PvE guy and a PvP guy get into a fight in the open world?
Do PvE talents not work on player characters (idk how that works), or do PvP talents work/not work in the open world? Little bit of both?
How do the PvE and PvP talent trees interact with each other anyway, are they both active at the same time or do you have to swap to a 'PvP spec' to activate it?
>>318164884
PvE talents (and artifacts) are always on, even in PvP. PvP talents, obviously we don't know yet but I'd imagine they'd only work in BGs/Arenas and the big PvP zone if there is one in legion.
>>318164884
They might only set in in PVP environments, like arenas and BGs.
No clue though.
Chances are you set up one "loadout" for PVE and one for PVP.
Thats a good question.
>>318156939
It depends. Certain classes/specs were far better in Vanilla/BC WoW.
Affliction Warlocks, Arms Warriors, Hunters, Prot Paladins, Priests, and Rogues.
WoD pretty much fucked the interactivity of all the classes. Everything today is just Spam 1 button, hit 2 button off cooldown, hit 3 button when you get the proc your class has, burn cooldowns during specific time during boss encounter.
Classes have very little budge room and utility outside of this.
Paladins are losing everything come Legion, with their only offensive skill from Classic being Judgement, and it doesn't even do what Judgement did back then.
>>318158320
>A bunch of passive +X% talents with 1-2 procs that probably won't even work in PvP.
>cuhrazy.
Yeah, let's just ignore that every class is being gutted down to a 3 button rotation with huge holes in it.
>>318165581
>WoD pretty much fucked the interactivity of all the classes. Everything today is just Spam 1 button, hit 2 button off cooldown, hit 3 button when you get the proc your class has, burn cooldowns during specific time during boss encounter.
Correct morons don't understand the idea of illusion of choice. Its no better now than it ever was before, they just like to pretend.
>>318162419
Nigga you retarded.
WoD was literally World of Warcraft: Cut Content and Broken Promises.
>>318165581
>prot paladin in Vanilla
like most of your other shit was already stupid, but prot paladin? Really?
>>318165581
>Everything today is just Spam 1 button, hit 2 button off cooldown, hit 3 button when you get the proc your class has, burn cooldowns during specific time during boss encounter.
As compared to sacc succubus, spam shadow bolt for an entire raid?
>>318165735
They already said that artifacts will work in PvP.
Why don't you share with the class what specs are being turned into a 3 Button Rotation?WW Monk muh Tigereye Brew muh serenity still in the tree even though it's confirmed removed
>>318165876
Yeah, none of the "cut" shit ever made it out of Alpha, what's your point? WoD was nothing but broken promises, things that never even got off the drawing board let alone out of Alpha.
>>318145724
honestly i dont think i mind it, i started playing wow a good couple months before they added this in and remember having to spend hours trying to get people to run low level dungeons
>>318165813
It's more fun to follow a priority list than to follow a rigid rotation.
>>318166119
No it's not. Rotation combined with priority is the funnest thing I've ever played on a MMO.
>>318165887
>Can't read.
It says Vanilla/BC right there you blind fuck.
>>318165990
You're going to compare a single raid tier during 9 months of game time to 3 years.
Sure.
>>318166053
>Why don't you share with the class what specs are being turned into a 3 Button Rotation?
All of them.
>>318166310
>All of them
Cool so you're just shitposting and relying on people to just believe you cause you're talking shit.
Cool glad we had this talk.
>>318166306
Wrong.
A Dragoon rotation is doesn't exist because they die instantly because all dragoons are shitters.
>>318166479
Feel free to give an example, you clearly haven't read anything on Legion's massive class gutting.
