If I want to start making basic games and gradually make my way up, which programming language should I start learning first? I've borrowed this book from a library(if the book is shit please tell me) and I'm trying to decide between C++, C and C#.
It depends if you want to use an engine or if are you starting form scratch.
I recommend you use an engine and learn the language(s) that engine uses.
I would recommend you learn basic HTML/CSS & JavaScript first to break you into coding. Then Puthon since its EZ
I'm making a game with Java, and Java has kind of a reputation for being shit, but I'm still having fun
Use whatever language you want, if it's a simple game
Any language will give you the basic tools needed to adapt to other languages quickly, so it doesn't really matter.
I'd start with C++ because its industry standard and will make more modern languages you learn later seem less bullshit in comparison.
>>316835692
>any kind of C
Dude, use D.
>>316835692
Ruby is an amazing Language,
Also Visual Basic.
>>316836557
Why is Java shit? Is it because of garbage collection? C# has that too and doesn't have a reputation for being shit.
>>316835692
Get Flash and learn Actionscript 3.0, fairly easy compared to other languages will lots of in build classes, it will teach the basics of oop, variables, if, else, switches, etc. Give it a month and you'll be on your way towards your very own asteroids, frogger, or whatever clone.
Of course I'll be in Flash so no one will ever play it, but it'll give you a firm grasp of a lot of basic stuff that is universal to a lot of languages.
>>316836874
I personally don't think it's all that bad, but I've been told by people much more knowledgeable than me that it's not very good
be a true professional and use C/C++
it's easy
It literally doesn't matter what you start with unless it's meme tier like haskell
I started with C++ and adapting to others was no trouble
I learned ActionScript3, how fucked am I?
If you're not really that interested in programming and computer science in general, you'll probably want to just use gamemaker or unity or something.
C++ is the most widely used language though so if you're interested in programming it's a good one to learn
>>316835692
assembly or machinecode
seriously though, python (java works too)
use mit ocw to learn
>>316835692
Might as well learn C++, you're going to learn the fundamentals first regardless, and you might as well learn good (read: C++11, possibly C++14) practices now
Just understand that at first you're going to learn a lot of console window shit, and it's going to seem tedious and useless, but just hold on; what you're really learning is the "under the hood" aspect of a game engine and the console window is like working with a program that has no graphical interface or input
Sounds obvious reading it here, but when you're neck deep in it for weeks or months, it feels pretty far away from vidya.
Best book: Stroustrup Principles and Practices using C++
http://www.stroustrup.com/programming.html
It even eventually has you work with a (simplified) GUI library to make a game with, and (having fooled around with SFML and SDL) I can tell you that what you'll learn there is nearly identical to what you'll be using with SFML (though at that point you may just want to dive into an SFML or SDL tutorial series)
>>316835692
This isn't /g/.
If you have never done programming before, then DO NOT start with C++ or similar. Start with Java, Ruby or Python first, then gradually get up to the C++ level.
If you jump into C++ right away, you'll be fucked over with confusion.
>>316837791
Not the OP, but I was about to ask for a good book, and seeing how the creator of C++ himself made a book I'll go with that. The only thing bothering me is the price
>€55
That's a bit much. And on top of that PDFs just don't read as well as a proper physical book
>>316837875
Well then, I've dabbled in C# for 3 years on school and know the principles of OOP. However it's been about 5 years since I actually programmed anything. Can I jump into C++ or would you advise otherwise?
>>316837875
If you take Comp Sci in university they will start you with C++. That's how I started anyway.
OP clearly said he wants to "work his way up". If someone just wanted to make a simple game and quit I'd have them use something simpler, but if you are going to keep at it and branch out, it's a good starting point since it front-loads all the most complex stuff and you'll have to learn it anyway.
>>316838213
>The only thing bothering me is the price
Anon don't fucking buy it, Bjarne has plenty of money (probably)
You can LITERALLY type in the name of the book along with "epub" or "download" and get a copy of it.
>>316835692
Learn how to use Maya/Blender and Photoshop/Gimp to make game assets, and then bash your head against C# enough to get something going with Unity.
C++ isn't necessary unless you want to work on engines or new tech. However, it does give you access to really low-level procedural programming, which is a lot easier IMO to grasp since there's a comparatively less complex foundation to work off of.
Build towards using C++ as your primary specialty, but focus on the actual development process without having to worry about the overly technical details. The biggest favor you can do for yourself is to learn to build off other people's work, rather than starting from the ground up. You still need enough general knowledge to know what you're doing, though.
You learn programming if you want to be a programmer.
You pick up unity, gamemaker, or about any framework if you want to make games. Making games is a lot more than just programming, so cut yourself some slack and don't spend the next 5 years trying to figure out how to code in the lower levels.
C++ is for AAA devs and turbo nerds anyways.
>>316838434
>unity
i'm so sorry
>>316836557
optimization problems. it's a cost you pay for the whole "code once, run anywhere" approach that the early designers of the language had.
>>316838608
>C++ is for AAA devs
it's literally babbies first language
>>316836910
don't ever touch a dying language. your time is too expensive to waste like this. Flash is dead.
>>316838675
Sorry for what? Our daddy told us not to be ashamed of our scripts
Why not a beginners tool like Gamemaker? It won't teach you to code well but you'll gain experience in all the other aspects of making a game and you'll actually be able to finish games in a reasonable amount of time, so you stay motivated.
>>316838415
Well I wasn't planning to anyways. I'm just saying PDFs on a PC just don't read comfortable at all. And I'm not in possession of an e-reader either. But I assume I'm cleared for C++ usage?
>>316838434
Blenderfag here: Don't try to randomly do things in Blender without opening up a tutorial, or you'll be immediately frustrated and close the program.
This series is really fucking good in terms of getting you introduced to things in Blender and showing off the kind of shit you can do (don't worry if you get lost, you're going to have to pause at times, sometimes this guy turns on a million modifiers and types in a bunch of magic numbers, it's the price of learning from a master)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCghBIUZyuM
If your computer can't handle hair, do the coffe cup tutorial instead, and then do the rest.
/3/ bitches about Blender's UI and rightly so, but you'll learn how to change all of it and set it up so that you aren't deleting the default cube and lamp and clicking "Cycles Renderer" every time
>>316836910
I thought all the flash devs were moving/have moved to HTML5 and HaxeFlixel.
>>316835692
>>316838213
As someone who's been where you are right now OP, get "Jumping into C++". Stroutsoup may be a good programmer, but he's not a good teacher.
Also prepare for depression.
>>316838308
I started with python and later c++
I feel working with a high level language first gives makes it easier to see the big picture rather than language semantics. My school is ranked top 10 for cs.
Learn programming and do Software Engineering for money while you make passion project games on the side.
If you just learn enough programming to do games you will end up being a cog in a mobile F2P game sweatshop most likely.
>>316838897
Just use EPUB Reader add-on for Firefox or whatever.
Any engine recommendation that isn't Unity, GML or Unreal?
>>316838993
Does it cover OOP, polymorphism, inheritance, etc?
>>316838714
Its also much easier to pick up something higher level if your only goal is to make games.
Who the fuck has the time for C++'s bullshit and "gotchas" when you can just pick up something else. Especially if you're at this solo.
>>316837875
OP said that he wanted to go from ground up, the only language "easy" enough that you mention is Python.
Learning C++ over java will give him a huge leap forward, while the other way around, he'd still have problems with the industry standards.
>>316839062
Your own
>>316839062
gamebryo
>>316838714
>babbies first language
That's Python
>>316838993
Don't worry bro, I'm already dead inside. Studying system & network engineering where they're trying to force Java on me, saying something about how it's the language of the future, while all I want to do is make videogames and work with C++
What's a decent engine for a 2d vidya.
I want to make a 2drun n gun.
>>316839110
It does, but obviously not as in depth as someone who's been doing C# for 3 years would require.
Book assumes you start from 0.
>>316839292
Not unity.
Anyone can learn simple languages and become a code monkey for a huge enterprise.
Learn C++ and create customized engines, libraries, and stuff that code monkeys will use in their daily routines at the company.
...IF you're in it for a career, for money.
If it's for a hobby, or indie development, just learn Python and evolve into C#.
>>316839292
GameMaker or Godot
How long would it take me from scratch to make a simple 2d sidescrolling engine, assuming I have very basic notions of C++?
>>316839292
Learn GML, it's probably the easiest language out there but it's all you will ever need for anything 2D.
>>316836805
can i just use /d/?
>>316839252
So I am not the only one here suffering through comp sci for another 2 years when it's becoming clearer and clearer that the only thing I want is to make vidya in the hope of making someone happy?
>>316835692
I feel like you need to grow up programming to be able to program well enough to make things desu
C++ is one of the more powerful languages in terms of what you can do with it, but it's not really the best thing to learn as a first language. Go with something like Python or Java until you have the basics down, then switching to C++ is a fairly easy thing.
If you wanna make basic games, the easiest thing is just to make something in Unreal or Unity an learn using their languages. That'll allow you to learn the basics and actually make interesting shit at the same time.
If you don't want to use an existing engine, just remember coding a window on which to draw something completely from scratch (using OpenGL or DX) can be a massive ballache.
>>316836187
>HTML/CSS
waste of time, only good for web pages and doesn't teach you shit about actual coding
>javascript
not a waste of time but still dumb. it's a real language but so much of it is weird and hacky, the way they implement object orientation is so ass-backwards that it will taint your experience with other languages.
C++ is a good language because it is used all over the place. C# would be a little easier, though, plus it's used for Unity which is one of the most popular game engines right now.
>>316839618
>but it's all you will ever need for anything 2D
Unless you want to make something serious.
GML is just for fun.
>>316839569
The answer to this depends entirely on you anon. We don't know if for you "working on the engine" means 1 hour a day, or 4 hours every weekend or 4 hours a day.
Also depends on how simple, and on how skilled you are. Personally I'm not particularly good and I'd reckon I could make a Mario engine in 1-3 months.
>>316839701
nope.
I'm with you friend. I remember growing up in awe, spending days getting lost in worlds like Morrowind, Hyrule and Zanarkand, and I just want to provide that sense of adventure and wonder to whoever is looking for it.
>>316838714
He's right though. Many AAA Devs use C++ since it's a pretty powerful language, performance-wise.
>>316840076
And then you realize that programming is quarter of the battle, and you also need art assets and good audio for a nice atmosphere. (And willpower to actually keep working on your game even if it looks like total shit to you)
Fuck this gay earth.
>>316840076
Damn.
No matter how I look at it, I feel like society as a whole is going head first into a wall, and the only thing that matters to me is forgetting about it while playing a game. I feel like art and entertainment are the only things that might remain once our whole world is changed.
I cannot bring myself to change to a specialized game programming school though. You know, just in case I regret it.
>>316839701
>>316840076
creating a big world like that is really just a product of slapping together a shitload of art assets which costs an assload of money.
programming produces the framework to hang all that on, but you're just responsible for the filesystem that loads in chunks of the field at a reasonable pace, not the one who designs and creates those fields.
>>316839953
More like 4 hours a day.
I just don't want to spend a year and realize I've gone nowhere.
>>316839701
Sure feels like it. I'll be running an internship soon but I don't even know what it'll teach me, considering I've already done about 5 internships on other schools before this one.
Currently I've been working on my drawing skills while on public transit using the /ic/ guide and during school hours I just slap code into C++. I'll make it eventually.
>>316840269
>since it's a pretty powerful language, performance-wise.
no, they use it because that's what runs on consoles. you don't have a choice.
90% of real programming work doesn't give you a choice of languages, you use what they use because it costs a fuckload of money to migrate everything.
>>316836187
>webcode as a starter "language"
Nope ayyy. OOP is the best for beginners.
Java or C++ is what OP should learn if he wants to code, i don't know about making games though
>>316839856
>The way you implement object orientation...
ES6 syntax is thus
class Person extends Humanoid {
constructor(name, age) {
super(name, age);
}
}
Sure it's prototypical underneath but it's a nice syntactic sugar.
>>316840420
>slapping a shitload of art assets together
wrong anon. One of my favourite games ever was really simple. Knytt was a perfect package, although a small one.
>>316840297
I'm trying to keep my ideas simple for now. At least till I have time to do things outside of school. I've had an idea kicking around in my head for a few months.Think Sunset Riders. You're a bounty hunter in the 1930's hired by the govt to kill the remaining cryptids. See the earlier post about a 2d run and gun. Mothman, skinchangers, the jersey devil, etc.Bonus costumes:mulder and scully
>>316840417
This is exactly why I love vidya so much. I don't play multiplayer games much, but singleplayer games are the perfect form of escapism.
>>316836874
Garbage collection as well as calls on calls on calls. Most everything you might need is already built, so it can be limited in what you can do.
Started with C++. Took formal classes up to data structures and intro OOP. Decided to major in something else. Found I didnt like what that major turned into in upper division. I daydream about programming and design but am out of practice and have no motivation to get back into it.
Ugh.
>learn to code
>learn to draw
pick one. We all know you can't get good at both unless you already are a good artist.
>>316836874
Java doesn't run on your OS. It runs on a Java emulator.
Does anything you make by yourself affected by this?
No, not really.
Java is a perfect language to code in for games. C++ is great too, but you'll need to learn more to use it properly.
>>316840297
I hate this mentality (the one showed in the pic).
So many schools forget to teach you that you must practice and persist to achieve your goals.
They should show kids that they are not alone when they fail at their first try.
>>316841070
Is that a challenge? "Talent" only takes you so far in drawing, no matter what people say. There's no trick to it other than investing a lot of time into it and coming to terms with the fact that you'll never reach perfection.
>>316840297
I know that feel all too well. I do have a couple friends who are into game art, so there's that. But we still need the long term motivation.
>>316840420
Not if you work with a couple people on a small game so you get to actually design the game.
I may be naive, but I'm someone who belives in small, creative indie titles. Recently I started dreaming about a life where I have a part time simple job (ie math lessons, translator or something) and I make the game I want on my spare time.
The fact anyone making a piece of art/entertainment has to make it worth in terms of money is killing any form of creativity. This feeling is terrible.
Just imagine the crazy shit that could happen if you put a hundred of the most creative persons in a room, and told them they could do anything without thinking about money.
What is a game engine, exactly?
Is directx a game engine? Is C++ a game engine?
What are the qualifications? When does something become a game engine?
What should I use if I want to make a game that needs to be optimized? Hundreds, maybe even thousands of objects or monsters running around doing their thing. Gamemaker isn't good for this, and I'm pretty sure Unity isn't either.
Is there a "game engine" that is simple enough for me to do that?
I mean, if you don't use the Box2D or whatever physics engine, gamemaker just allows you to make rooms and objects.
You can define events for objects, (like what the object does if it collides with something), and make your own scripts.
It handles collision, allowing you to choose to make collision masks or just use the sprites as masks.
So as far as I can see, Classes have event handlers, right? So if you make your own collision dealy, that's all you need isn't it?
someone tell me where I'm wrong
>>316841070
Maybe for a lazy anon like you, but if you put enough work into it you could easily become great in both.
>>316840845
>Knytt
never heard of it but
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knytt_Underground
>The main world is divided into 47 rooms across by 29 rooms down, for a total of at least 1,363 rooms. However, there are many secret areas that exist off the in-game map, leading to over 1,800 total locations in all.[1] Each region of the world has a distinct visual theme and some areas are analogous to the levels in Within a Deep Forest.
>1800 total locations
It also says that the game was announced July 2012 and released October 2013, so they guy worked on it for more than a year after announcing it, he probably had worked for about the same amount of time before he announced it, too.
probably 98% of the work for that game was designing all that shit, programming it was important but took a trivial amount of time.
>>316841167
Schools do, i've been in them for parents evenings and posters about not giving up are every whereIn bongland anyway
>>316841167
>They should show kids that they are not alone when they fail at their first try.
That's exactly what the comic conveys though you donut.
>>316841397
good luck, anon. I believe in you.
>>316840548
And why is C++ is a preferred language for consoles?
>>316841380
C++ is a programming language. I believe directx is rendering libraries than tell your computer how to draw things. From what i understand a game engine is just a structure with which programmers can basically plug things into it to make it easier to create a game.
>>316841273
Then don't use "Hyrule, Zanarkand, and Morrowind" as your fucking examples because those games cost millions of dollars to make.
>>316841398
>>316841398
http://nifflas.ni2.se/?page=Knytt
go play it. It's an hour of your time, and if you like comfy, you won't regret it.
I'm not saying that design isn't important, or that there isn't a fair amount of assets involved, but a well designed, small world will beat out a large one that's just been slapped together by a lazy developer.
>>316839252
So what is the best way to approach programming games? Is taking Computer Science a good idea?
Currently learning a bunch of math, but I'm not sure about approaching a CS degree. I just want to make video games.
>>316835692
Want to make games in a week?
Flash and AS2.
Want to have something a bit more substantive? C# and Python.
Want to waste years of your life?
C++
>>316841687
>taking inspiration from big budget games means you can't make your own small budget titles.
ok buddy
>>316835692
>C#
I happen to do game development for a living. You'll want to learn this language because its very easy for beginners and you don't need to worrier about memory management..
Which is a fucking pain in the ass, it's that or use unreal engine 4 blueprints most of the core stuff is exposed to blueprints now.
>>316841687
I'm not the same guy.
I do think these examples are correct though. As much as I love indie games, nothing will beat a 3D world with a shitton of content to get you immersed. However it's not really realistic to think you will make this kind of game, and even if you do, publishers will kill any sort of creativity unless you are some sort of japanese genius.
I also love indie games. But these ones are much more about the short but intense experience. You remember them fondly, but cannot sink a lot of time in it.
I just want to make one someday and see one of my players smile while playing it. That would make me happy.
>>316841770
If you can handle the math, the CS degree will be useful if you ever decide that you don't actually want to make games after all.
Everything you need to know about making games can be self-learned though.
Really though your biggest obstacle will be doing everything ELSE, being a one man army is hard.(Cave Story took years to make) But either programming or drawing are very good starts, much better than idea guy or music guy.
>>316840297
There are like 100 wannabe game artists for every programmer. If you can actually make a functioning game you'll have no trouble finding people to contribute art and music.
always start with c#
>>316841380
C++ is a programming language, you write instructions for the computer to follow
DirectX is for graphics rendering, packages that tell the computer how to render stuff. You would import packages into your program and run commands people way smarter than you have written to make things render on the screen
Unity is a game engine, like with directx you would import a package so that you can use c++ commands written by people way smarter than you about how a game works.
>>316842224
Good luck making the artist stick around and not suddenly stop answering your e-mails. And good luck finding artists with absolutely no ideas of their own who are willing to work for free for someone else's ideas.
If it was that easy, AGDG would dish out a lot more games m8. The only notable game to come out of there (Risk of Rain) had both the art and programming done by the same person.
>>316842131
I know how to draw, but not very well. Taking up some online courses to brush up my art skills.
As for programming, I know very little outside of C (very, very little), but I did do a lot of Math in college.
So making games can be self taught, eh? I haven't read too much into this thread, but where can I begin self teaching?
>>316841770
I'm in 4th year of comp sci right now.
I think it's a valid way if you want to make games in the end. The only thing that REALLY matters is what games you have done or tried doing, and what you can show to employers in the game industry. Not so much what your diploma is (unless it's from a crazy good school)
The downside of CS is that you will learn a LOT of boring things, but it's great to know about them for general knowledge. Upside is you can easily change your mind and choose the easy path of non-game programming.
>>316842224
You'd be surprised. So many of those "artists" are lazy fucks.
You wuldnt believe me if I told you how many projects I've put on hold to wait for artists to make a single fucking sprite sheet for 4 dirctional movement.
My advice is make your own shit. Even if it looks awful, you could always replace it if yu find someone who isn't a piece of shit to do art
>>316842224
this is what codemonkeys actually believe
>>316841610
because that's what consoles run
they are made such that they can run compiled c++ code so that it's standardized.
>>316841380
>What should I use if I want to make a game that needs to be optimized? Hundreds, maybe even thousands of objects or monsters running around doing their thing. Gamemaker isn't good for this, and I'm pretty sure Unity isn't either.
Don't blame the engine for poor optimization, blame the programmer. You can do a lot for optimization yourself. If you're having slowdowns in your game, 99% of the time, it's your fault.
>>316841770
If you want to make some little indie game filled with your own ideas, then you probably want to go with computer science and web development, get a real job making web pages, and then work on your game in your free time.
if you want to actually work in the industry you may want to look into a game development school like digipen or something.
>>316842557
>The downside of CS is that you will learn a LOT of boring things, but it's great to know about them for general knowledge
Fundamentals being boring is nothing new and something I can put up with. Sounds great. I basically want to do something "realistic" and just do 2D side scroller. Obviously, everyone and their mom does this, but I'd like to attempt it and see how far I can get with it.
Currently under going animation classes and taking Math. But yeah, if most of these things can be self taught, I'd like to know more.
>>316842503
Here is my opinion after having talked to a couple people from game industry:
Unity has a HUGE community, tons of tutorials, and it is the goto engine for indie games.
Unreal Engine is for bigger projects.
You do not need in depth programming knowledge. That used to be true, but not anymore due to the great tools we have nowadays.
>>316842280
>start by sucking microsoft cock
fuck no, this mentality produces the worst programmers who can't do shit without the awkward behemoth of visual studio and a ton of intellisense as a crutch.
>tfw don't have the motivation of time management skills to become good at anything.
>>316842503
Depends on what you'd like to start with 2D or 3D?
If 2D you can either learn C++ and use SFML at the beginning, or learn GameMaker's language. Don't underestimate it, the thing is capable of a lot of things, and its language is OOP-lite.
If 3D then either C# and go with Unity, or C++ and go with UE4.
A good rule of thumb is to start with lesser games though. Learn GameMaker/C++ and make pong. Then make tetris. Then make a platformer. Then make a shitty roguelike , etc.
It's better to make small extremely short games than long unfinished ones. Every single game will teach you some basic things you'll need in bigger games.
Pong = Collision,2D movement, acceleration.
Platformer = Advanced 2D Movement, Gravity, Camera Work.
Roguelike = AI, Pathfinding, Procedural Dungeon Generation
etc.
If you can handle shitposting you can always check out AGDG in /vg/, either the OP or asking questions. Be careful not to take their language/engine wars too seriously.
>>316838928
Would make sense, though there's a few options around to convert .swf to .js, and I think Autodesk has something that can turn it into an .exe. Pretty sure there's more people using Flash than HaxeFlixel though. Wouldn't want to start out trying to learn something without a decent knowledge base. Despite Adobe's flaws, their api and support base is second to none.
>>316842774
Then I would go for CS. My state of mind right now is that you cannot regret going for CS, but you can regret going for game programming only.
If you really want to put your hands in the code, you could try SFML for C++. Made a tetris with this last summer, it's a very simple library.
But like I said >>316842875
Unity is really looking like the goto engine. That's where most of the job demand is, at least from what I heard.
>linear algebra
i've been in my CS course for about a year now and we haven't even talked about videogames. all we do are programs for (fake)entreprises and problem solving. but there's so much fucking maths in all we do. honestly, are there as much maths when you develop games
>>316843442
>linear algebra
fundamental in 3d video games.
Video games are essentially all numbers. Be prepared for more math if you want to make them
>>316842875
Are these really the only options?
Unity isn't good for bigger profile projects and Unreal has ridiculous draconian fees.
>>316843442
As I understand it, yes but most of it is already done for you.
>>316842596
The Xbone, Vita and PS4 all have tools for C# too.
And anything that compiles to the architecture the consoles use can run there, which means there is nothing that says C++ is the only language.
The real reason C++ is used is because it's the only language with widespread library support that provides good abstractions while still allowing the programmer to manually manage memory.
>>316843442
Second year here, hardly any video game except for some custom projects made by a few teachers who know nothing about vidya.
I love maths however, especially algebra. I'd argue that it's absolutely fantastic for general knowledge and abstraction capacity.
Most likely your games will not include advanced math, unless you make your own 3D engine or some sort of very specific algorithm for procedural generation or some shit.
>>316843442
Depends on
1.Whether your game is 2D and not 3D
2.Whether you're using an engine and not making your own
3.Whether your game does not rely on physics
4.Whether your game has simple mechanics and not complex ones
If the answer to all questions are Yes, then you basically just need 1+1. For every "no" increase the required math by 10 times.
>>316835692
>C++
It's like you want to fail
>>316843442
Linear algebra is pretty important in video games, probably moreso at the engine level but also in scripting, but in the course I took on it the parts that were relevant to video games took maybe 10% of the course and the rest was just muh gauss elimination which I've yet to find a use for in vidya.
You don't want to program your games.
That shit takes for ever. Believe me.
Learn the basics of programming and get on some engine and start creating.
Gamemake was used for Undertale and for Holine miami.
Visit the general on /vg/ for better advice than any you can get here.
>>>/vg/AGDG
>>316843442
>and we haven't even talked about videogames
don't expect to
video games are a media industry
CS is a mix of tech and business with a little math (if you go for pure algorithm analysis)
>>316843647
>Unreal has ridiculous draconian fees
>5% of your profit IF you ever make a game that sells for more than 3k dollars
Calm down Goldstein, nobody's taking your shekels.
>>316843442
linear algebra is fun as hell and also one of the most important forms of mathematics, especially for 3d animation.
>>316843993
Why?
The only waste of time is GML.
>>316844035
Anything sells more than 3K dude.
Specially a serious project.
That's why Unreal fees are draconian.
>start with C# three weeks ago
>still don't know enough to make a simple IRC bot
I feel like a failure. It also doesn't help that the animal books only have in chapter examples and don't have exercises
>>316843647
There are a shitton of options, I'm only giving you the most useful ones.
Unity is used for an incredible proportion of indie games. Sure it's not good for big projects, but really, you will probably never go for such a big project, unless you have been making games for quite a while, in which case you will know a lot more than you do now.
My opinion may be biased by the last two people from the game industry who told me the same thing, but really I feel like it's a great beginner choice.
>engines that use their own shitty Python/Lua/Javascript ripoff instead of just embedding a real Lua interpreter or fucking ANY programming language that people actually know already
It's like they want worse performance and to give people another reason to drop their engine
>>316843639
>>316843709
>>316843859
well i guess there's no escaping it, but still fuck vectors and summations in particular
>>316844284
IRC is a super easy protocol to learn
>>316844284
>3 weeks ago
>3 weeks
>a failure
u wot m8
I've been learning Python and Java for 2 years and I couldn't make an IRC bot without considerable amounts of Googling. I've published an Android app and I still couldn't. You think that YOU'RE a failure after 3 weeks? I'd barely have the basics down after three weeks.
>>316836874
>forced GC
>interpreted
>verbose as fuck
>>316844389
Those are the easiest and most important concepts of linear algebra. You are a fucking moron.
>>316844123
the only waste here is the air you are breathing, you can do amazing things with GML like you can make garbage with C++, it's seems like you think programming languages are made of magic or something
>>316844284
It's normal to struggle. Programming is a pain to learn if you do not have someone experienced who is available to answer your questions.
There is a point where you know very well about basic programming (variables, functions), and you feel lost because there are very few help between that and end level knowledge.
Things like best practice, common ressource location on the internet, ways to think about your program...
>>316844245
Nah man, nah.
If you just started learning how to make games and have never shipped a finished product but your only worry is "b-but what if my game sells for 1 billion and I'll have to give Epic 5 million dollars?!" then you're never going to make it.
You're also vastly overestimating how much indie games sell. (And how many indie games die before being finished) I usually hang around those sort of communities and it's a real doggy dog world out there.
I'M AN IDEAS GUY
ALSO HOW THE FUCK DO I USE BLENDER WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS INTERFACE
>>316844983
A post in this thread links to a recommended video series. I ain't copy-pasting it for you. whore.
If you're committing to this, I'm sorry. You'll probably feel like shit when you try to sell your game on desura or indiegala and nobody buys it, then you try to give it away for free and nobody wants it.
>>316845158
DON'T CALL ME A WHORE YOU FLUID DRUID
ALSO FOUND THE VID SO THX BBY
>>316842725
but I hear that things running on a virtual machine, like Java and Gamemaker, aren't as good and are slower.
I mean I know you can do work to optimize, but still.
>>316846020
Computers are so fast nowadays that the overhead is negligible for a small indie game. If you're seriously having issues, then you fucked up.
>>316844596
OP here, thanks for all of the suggestions anons!
Right now, I'm thinking of learning Python first to get the hang of coding, then going over to C++.
I'm currently in a college studying Game Design , where I'm supposed to be doing some VB.NET/Javascript work later on in the year, and I need to choose between Comp Science and more of the Game Design for a Uni course next year, should be fun...Probably won't.
>>316846020
At the scale of game you make with a small team (1-20 developers or so) you're basically never going to be limited by the engine unless there is some serious flaw in the engine. If you have problems it's almost certainly your scripts doing something retarded like iterating over a bunch of shit on each component or something.
Using virtual machines to prevent games from crashing has been around for ages. I think Quake 1 or 2 came with a VM and a special C compiler for the scripting parts of the game to isolate it from crashing the entire game if there was some weirdness in the script, and those games are obviously often praised for being performant.
>>316846621
You have made relatively sound decisions that should lead to good things if you follow through on them.
Game Design is a difficult business to break into but you should be able to adapt your skills to similar dev work if that falls through.
>>316846621
Good luck anon. Your thread ended up well and had some interesting discussions.
Any of you done a software engineering degree or similarly focused compsci degree? Was it everything you hoped?
>>316846182
>>316846778
Let's say I want a room with 1 million enemies in it.
That's an exaggeration, sure, but I don't have to be talented to make a room with a million enemies.
And let's say each of those enemies is gravitationally attracted to every other enemy, for some reason.
So this is O = n^2 or something horrible, and the game will run slowly. Obviously I need to do something about it, like not have them gravitationally attracted to each other.
But the point of all this is, won't gamemaker run this much, much more slowly than some custom thing in C++?
Because the game I'm thinking of won't have individual rooms in the normal sense. So the load will be bigger.
also, does gamemaker support multithreading?
Because if not, that's a serious reason to not do it if you're cool and can use multithreading (which I as of yet am not).
>>316847212
I'm in a middle level school. It's okay. I feel like I do not learn as much as I would like, but the more I advance the more I realise that your life begins after the studies. That's where you will really decide on your future and fully specialise in something.
CS is a generally safe path. I have trouble imagining people regretting this choice, unless what they want is something completely different.
>>316847212
I'm just about done with my BS in CS and honestly there's been a lot of courses that have just been completely shit because the professor gives zero fucks so all the materials are out of date or contain no information and you just end up grinding through them.
There's been some real high points too though, the course on hardware where we learned MIPS assembly and C and programmed microcontrollers is probably the best course I've taken in my entire life. But for every one of those you get a course like "Sustainable Development for Computer Science and Engineering" that makes you seriously wonder what the fuck you're doing with your life.
I would rather have picked individual courses than a programme because of that but by now it's too late to fix that so I might as well get my diploma. And obviously individual courses don't give you any diplomas to show to employers, but I'm sure you can substitute that with your Github profile these days anyway.
>>316846621
Go with more CS, specializing in game design limits your future opportunities, especially if you're just a freshman.
>>316847582
You know, every programmer wants to reinvent the wheel. An incredible amount of time is lost due to people thinking they can do better than something that already exists.
It always ends up being worse.
I want to make a2D platformerwhat would be a good place for someone who doesn't know anything about making games to start?
>freshman CompSci student
>only games I can make thus far are text-based Etrian Odyssey rip-offs
>>316846621
Oh, and if you immediately want to start fucking with games, learn Java/C# after getting the basics of Python down. Java's useful for making RuneScape bots, where I was able to apply the concepts I learned in classes to actual applications, while C# is good for making general MMO bots, where those same concepts can also be applied.
>>316847582
Yes, I don't think a lot of engines support having every object have their own gravitational pull by default. However, what exactly would a custom engine solve? You would have to rewrite so many other parts of the engine that are much more pimped out than you're going to be able to make them to make one part better, and at the end of the day you're probably going to lose the performance you gain in other areas.
For that problem you would probably use some approximation method and only iterate over objects within a certain distance anyway (using something like octrees maybe?) which you could implement in any existing engine. The majority of the speedup comes from improving the algorithm to not be O(n^2).
>>316848224
>freshman
>making anything at all that isn't "Make a Class with these fields!"
nbd desu senpai
Posting "games" I made back in 90s
>>316847582
It doesnt fucking matter what language you use, you can still use the barnes-hutt algorithm and get down to nlog(n) (assuming it isnt such a piece of shit that you can't implement basic data structures). The only difference is going to be a constant multiplier.
![OF-5e-cover[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/sZrO5Li.jpg "OF-5e-cover[1].jpg")
>>316848341
>CS101 course uses this book
>majority of students can't create an executable JAR file by the end of the year because they just use BlueJ to instantiate objects and run methods
thanks obama
>>316848201
learn how to
>>316848550
like what's a good language/engine
>>316848201
Stencyl is easy.
Unity is best for long term.
Game Maker is a good in between.
>>316848512
>in sophomore programming class
>spent half the semester going over shit from the freshmen classes
>because of this won't be getting to every topic on the syllabus
thanks unions for tenuring shit professors that don't teach enough material
>>316848341
Actually, once my class learned about if statements, loops, and switches, and I gained basic knowledge about class and method calls. I could make a labyrinth with turn-based random encounters. The code is an abomination, but it works.
>>316848224
At least you didn't make the mistake of enrolling into aliberal arts school. Taking Comp Sci there as a freshman, but it feels like I'm way behind the curve.
>>316835692
>read C: the complete reference by Herbert Schild
>read a better C programming book
>understand who the bad programmers are
>eliminate the bad programmers
Don't be a faggot, learn C and OpenGL.
>>316849061
>understand who the bad programmers are
>eliminate the bad programmers
C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do *nothing* but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.
>>316839856
>C# would be a little easier
I started with C#. Trust me, it is not an easy language to understand. The fact that you can cast an int to object still confuses me.
>>316847582
>won't gamemaker run this much, much more slowly than some custom thing in C++?
it should run it at the same Big-O and probably run it MUCH more efficiently than you could think of how to implement it UNLESS YOU SPEND YEARS OF YOUR LIFE CREATING AN ENGINE SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED AROUND WHAT YOU WANT.
As an example, Mike Z's engine is pretty much the best engine for 2D fighting games and he made it himself, but he also spent years of his life working on it and built it SPECIFICALLY for 2D fighting games. The first iteration of the thing was on a Dreamcast for chrissake. Every iteration he learned new things about 2d sprites and how to load them efficiently into memory so it could get to the point where Skullgirls could load sprite data fast enough to have both players switch between and call assists from up to 3 characters apiece (and in the beginning it had to resort to only displaying hitboxes because it couldn't load the data fast enough)
>>316849229
>>316849251
I've only ever used c
what's the difference between C and C++/C#
>>316849135
okay
how
>>316849601
C - Kernighan&Ritchie
OpenGL - SuperBible
>>316849597
C++ adds a much larger standard library, classes, generics, and a lot of other abstractions, but it's still mostly compatible with C (so you can write C code and it will usually also be valid C++ code).
C# is a completely different language, it's basically Microsoft's version of Java. It's garbage collected and runs in a VM.
>>316849229
my point was that C: the complete reference by Herbert Schildt teaches you who the bad programmers are because the book is garbage.
I learned a lot from the excerpts I've seen from it.
As far as C goes, C++ programmers often think they know how to program C, which is very dangerous.
>want desperately to start making sports simulators
>no idea where to start
Say I want to be like that shitty dog, Toby Fox. What should I be learning and doing? I know he apparently made the whole game himself with some side help from his girlfriend(?). But what's the broad picture? Drawing, Music, Writing, making the game. It's all important, so with so many tasks ahead of me, where should I even begin?
>>316849597
C++ was designed as a superset of C so any C code will run perfectly in a C++ compiler. They just added object oriented stuff so you can make classes and things, and also added libraries of classes to give you a lot of helpful packages
C# is microsoft's own programming language meant to be like C++ but easier to program in due to weaker typing and stuff.
>>316849597
C++ adds classes, which allows the compiler to autogenerate v-tables. They also add in polymorphism, which is a strange concept.
It also has templates, which are basically compiler generated macro functions to handle different data types.
C# adds a whole new insane layer where everything is a class now. Primitive types are classes too. Main has to be in a class too.
>>316849976
Pong is the most basic sport simulator
start at pong
>>316850052
>C++ was designed as a superset of C so any C code will run perfectly in a C++ compiler
oh my god that is so wrong it makes me feel sick reading it.
int new = malloc(234);
>>316849768
>>316850052
>>316850076
So its just standard c with a lot more bells and whistles?
How would this differentiate a good or bad programmer? I'm pretty sure I'm mediocre at best, but I can make C work.
>>316849976
Start with numbers. Abstract everything you can think of out to equations and data.
>>316850052
I get to be that guy that points out that C++ is no longer a superset of C
>>316850176
>int new = malloc(234);
Can you explain please? (I'm not really C or C++ programmer but curious)
>>316838997
bottom-up > top-down learning
>>316850041
Whatever you do, just don't be one of those idiots that think you can only make something good by working from scratch.
Grab a framework or engine that has done the heavy lifting, learn some coding, and just get to work. We're all standing on the shoulders of giants here.
Go to codeacademy, learn the basics of programming, then grab unity or gamemaker.
>>316849754
thanks friend i'll give it a read
>>316850319
iirc malloc is Memory ALLOCation, and 234 is the number of bytes allocated?
Someone will have to correct me on this, I'm probably wrong.
>>316850076
>Main has to be in a class too.
>first learned java in high school before we knew what objects really were
>then went to college and learned OOP with C/C++
>then learned Python after dropping out
>then had to learn C# for work
can someone explain to me the benefits of making your language need main to be in a class like C# and Java do? because it just seems like needless bullshit.
>>316850319
In C, the return type of a memory allocation is void*, but since C is loosely typed, it doesn't have to be cast to an int*.
>C
int *a = malloc(4);
>C++
int *a = (int*)malloc(4);
>>316850501
Java just does it because its the conventional 'everythings an object!' standard that java has.
>>316850439
>starting completely from scratch as a beginner
I might be browsing 4chan for 9 years now but even I'm not that stupid. I know games like risk of rain, Hotline miami and Undertale are made using game maker. I wouldn't even dare working on my own engine without any experience
>>316850203
No, it's very different from C because of classes and inheritance. In C++ nowadays you usually don't even use pointers because it has "smart pointers" that handle freeing automatically and such.
What I think quotes like >>316849229 refer to is that C++ is incredibly complex compared to C. You can learn pretty much all the syntax of C in a very short time, while C++ is HUGE. This means if you don't have any coding standards people can use features that no one has a clue about. It's also very easy to drink the koolaid and start complicating things needlessly using inheritance, operator overloading and such, when keeping things simple is one of the most important parts of programming.
>>316850565
I think I get it, thanks!
C#
>>316850041
Just use GameMaker, so you can start putting together something. Toby just put some simple established gameplay things together in interesting ways. So practice some music and art I guess if you really wanna do it all on your own. Toby is a music guy more than anything, and writing is something that will depend on your personal sensibilities and humor most of all. Most importantly though: just make something.
Just start with an interesting idea and stick to it until completion.
>>316850565
Not to mention that naming a variable "new" in C++ wouldn't work since it's a keyword there.
>>316850565
>C is loosely type
it's not. It just doesn't throw an error when you're doing dangerous implicit conversions. Most compilers will warn if you're doing anything dangerous though.
implicitly converting void* to another pointer type without a cast is not dangerous though. It makes no sense to cast it, other than c++ requires it for some reason.
>>316850319
>I forgot the * in the declarator
>it should be int *new = malloc(234);
it assigns an integer pointer called 'new' to some newly allocated memory.
new is a reserved keyword in c++ and you can't assign void* to int* in c++ without a cast, so this will compile in a c compiler, but not a c++ compiler.
>>316850501
>it just seems like needless bullshit.
Arrogance is a good way to be a shitty programmer. Nothing "needs" to be the way it is in any language.
Where else are you going to put it? How are you going to refer to it, and how will the compiler know where to find it? Might as well ask "why does main() have to be a .c file" for C. Classes are the syntax of .java files.
>>316850721
This is beautiful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX0ItVEVjHc
this is the holy grail of vidya-related programming talks desu
![quote-programming-in-basic-causes-brain-damage-edsger-dijkstra-84-72-83[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/8bxxmZc.jpg "quote-programming-in-basic-causes-brain-damage-edsger-dijkstra-84-72-83[1].jpg")
>>316837226
except basic
>>316850948
"everything's a class!" doesn't seem like a useful attribute
99% of the time, main is something you run once when the program runs
philosophically, that fulfills the definition of a function, not an object.
I suppose if I worked hard, I could imagine a situation where having main be part of an object would make sense, so having that as an option would make sense, but needing to do that because "Now EVERYTHING is a class!" seems like the realm of LOLCODE and other esoteric programming languages. Making your language prove a point isn't actually valuable to people who actually are trying to get shit done.
>>316837226
I started with INTERCAL and I am a great programmer now. It's hard to get used to how impolite most code is, though.
>>316851623
baka
>>316840690
>java or C++
>Java or c#
fixed that for you asshole, c# is clearly the better OOP language.
>>316851530
>"everything's a class!" doesn't seem like a useful attribute
It is a useful attribute... it's just that there's nothing that can do that couldn't be done better in a different way.
whatever {
};
or
whatever
{
};
?
>>316851884
the second unless your ide doesn't automatically close your brackets for you
>>316851884bottom
How exactly did you guys learn? Self taught, school, or both?
Also, is it worth transferring to a more STEM oriented school if I want to learn CS?
>>316851884
If your tab size is set to 2, do the second one. If your tab size is 4 or larger, do whatever. It's not a big deal.
I usually use k&r style brackets and 8 size tabs.
I plan on getting into game programming by making simplish engines from scratch (using an API that offers input detection and will render a window from a provided 2d array), because that interests me. More sophisticated games/programs later will probably use an existing engine or at least a higher level API.
I'm not a fool, am I?
>>316839856
I don't really agree. HTML5 games (coded mostly in JavaScript taking advantage of HTML5 features) and Javascript games are both fine. You can make games from the ground up or use something like Phaser (which has plenty of tutorials/examples - and look into game mechanics explorer as well). You can also make phone apps using things like Ionic, Cordova, and Phonegap - granted, these won't be as efficient as native apps, but that is the price to pay for multiplatform solutions.
Obviously, this isn't the route to go for hefty games. It also isn't the route to go for learning about algorithms, ASM/architecture, debugging, OOP, and APIs either, but for a small first game it isn't the worst idea. People have successfully made games on weak platforms like Game Maker Studio, so it isn't like game development is only coding.
>>316851884
>not whatever { };
Honestly OP, just download either the free version of Unreal or Unity and follow tutorials to get you going making games there.
You'll learn some coding as you go and have a lot more fun with a lot more to show for it.
If you really want to get into the nitty gritty then look into OpenGL etc.
>>316851530
>main be part of an object
Just because something is in a class doesn't make it in an object. You say you know OOP but are you sure you know what a class is? It's really just an abstract collection, a way of organizing, at minimum. Main is a function/method, yes, but you can have a class that is nothing BUT methods for other classes to use.
Putting main inside a class is consistent and makes just as much sense as putting utility functions in some other class. It's merely an organizing principle.
Another way to think about it is, each separate .java file is already a "class" whether you like it or not--it's its own little collection of fields and methods, separated from the rest. Java just makes you wrap the file contents in class syntax so it's explicit and easier for the compiler.
>>316851884
second, it is so much easier to read it isn't funny.
>>316852102
Do it. The world needs more people doing more technical stuff.
>>316852102
Welcome, Carmack!
>>316851884
The first one causes trouble when your lines start wrapping because your names are becoming enterprise and you're not full screening your editor.
It's usually fine for if/for/while statements to use the first one since they can only get so long but when you have a class with multiple inheritances and such the second one is the only real choice, so for consistency you might as well use it all the time.
>tfw too stupid to learn vim
});
is this the worst part of javascript?
>>316853136
The worst part of Javascript is Javascript.
>>316853127
try emacs u bb
>>316853127
learning hjkl movement has been a godsend to me
RTS/ASSFAGGOTS gamers should realize how great it is to bind your camera to asdf and be able to move quickly and efficiently while having access to more hotkeys.
What IDE do you use? MS pulled express so I only have it on my laptop, which I don't want to be chained to because its an old hot piece of shit. I gotta have that step-wise debugging, though, and managing everything in notepad++ would be suffering. Had a hell of a time even trying to install mingw because "It's still in development!" and I don't have enough experience with linux-like installation to tolerate wading through their bullshit.
>>316853337
What does hjkl movement do?
>>316853691
https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/products/visual-studio-community-vs.aspx
>>316853714
h left
j down
k up
l right
another way to think of it is like a ddr screen
it's weird at first but it works so well once you're used to it. I moved it to asdf for playing my favorite ASSFAGGOTS
>>316853127
No you're not. You're just too lazy to crunch through a tutorial and practice.
There is nothing to "get," there is only familiarity with the interface and commands. Buckle down and do it.
>>316851154
"Holy grail" means something really rare and hard to find, not just anything that's good.
>>316851884
Whatever you and your dev team have decided on as a coding standard.
I assume nearly all of you are working solo and will never show their code to anyone else who will actually work on it, in which case who cares? You've probably got worse issues.
>>316855451
>in which case who cares?
because even if this project is never seen by another human being, it's good practice for when you make something that is.
even if you're the only one who looks at it, you probably still benefit from having more readable code unless you have photographic memory for everything you've ever touched.
>>316847949
I don't want to reinvent the wheel.
I just don't know where to find the wheel that already exists that does what I want without bells and whistles that slow it down.
Also, sometimes programmers do need to make their own stuff. The whole "everything has already been invented" thing has never been true. That mentality stifles creativity.
That being said I'm not closed to the idea of using something that already exists, I just don't know where it is. So if I don't know where it is, and no one can find it, then I'll just have to make it, rather than not do anything.
>>316848474
>>316849372
you misunderstand
I don't doubt gamemaker would run at the same Big-O
I'm saying gamemaker is slower, because it's on a virtual machine.
Also I'm not talking about ME necessarily making something in C++. I'm saying any engine compiled in C++ ought to be better than a virtual machine. I know gamemaker has a "compiler" option, but I don't know if that's as efficient as it could be.
>>316848326
I don't need an engine that supports gravitational whatever. That was just an example to show how anyone can make a game that runs a heavy load.
>>316850716
woah woah woah
what's wrong with inheritance and operator overloading
>>316836805
Why not just go for D+?
>>316856482
Yes, GameMaker is slower in that one specific use case. But ask yourself this: when are you actually going to run into that? Would it be worth rewriting everything just to make that one thing better?
>>316841529
This image speaks a lot of truth. The worst thing that can happen to you is be put off by someone who's obviously had more experience. I used to be like that.
