What's the fundamental flaw of RTS games?
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What's the fundamental flaw of RTS games?
>>316572772
gotta click things
no controller support
Thinking ahead is for fags
>>316572772
too focused on multiplayer
>>316572772
You need to do too many things at the same time, so it becomes stressful fast, unless you're some super autistic nerd.
>>316572772
>aligment
that shit always triggers my inner autism
One single way to win, rush to do the single winning thing.
>>316572901
This is why MOBAs exist now, and even then retards still think it is to much.
>>316572965
This, rushing is the best strat in most all RTS games. The winner is basically who spammed an army first rather then a long, drawn out fight.
>>316573005
MOBAs aren't even remotely comparable to RTS games. You must be fucking garbage at both.
>>316572965
Rushing only wins if the other side is completely oblivious to it.
>>316572772
>What's the fundamental flaw of RTS games?
up to a very high level APM are more important than strategic brilliance
They're boring.
>>316573045
Then you both rush and no one has fun.
The skill is based on autistic levels of hand-to-keyboard APM rather than the intelligence of the player
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHcl6Cs1FAM
>>316572772
Creating them with PvP, balance and tournaments in mind instead of having fucking fun while playing them. Starcraft 2 is boring as fuck so are more and more newer RTS games.
>>316573045
>Rushing only wins if the other side is completely oblivious to it.
this is the only thing RTS actually do well
Scouting is vitally important. If you have more information than your enemy chances are high your are going to win.
>>316573005
>>316573024
Screw RTS and Mobas, give me turn based strategy games.
>>316573116
How many games have you actually watched/played?
In multiplayer, there's not much strategy. The person or group that wins is the one that gets the resources to build their army the quickest.
Not sure how much it applies to other RTS game since I didn't really play online with them, but SC2's build orders were the worst thing ever. I fucking hate how rigid the first 10 minutes of the game was.
>>316572772
Depends.
In my case certain mechanics get too repetitive (like worker units taking up a large part of your population limit and are needed to extract resources instead of simply building an automated mine).
At least games like Warlords: Battlecry (send them to the mine and they'll free space for the pop-limit) or Dawn of War (strategic points) do it better. Not to mention Total Annihilation or SupCom. Thus this allows you to focus on the good part that is advancing and conquering.
>>316572971
And they never had the Stukov missions for the PC. Had to bloody download a re-made version of them...
>>316572772
AI is often too dumb to be a challange.
PvP often comes down to only having 3 strategies per race and the one who can click faster wins. Starcraft 2 is the best example for that.
>>316572965
This is false
Part of competitive RTS is to scout your enemy, if you don't see a rush coming, it's your fault for not preparing for it
Defending off a rush generally means you're going to be ahead economically
>>316573095
You can perform well in the top200 of sc2 with 100apm.
That is not particularly fast. People can type at 100WPM
>>316572772
They're boring as fuck
>>316572772
Not being MOBAs.
>>316573184
This does it for me, too. It feels too much like rock paper scissors.
>start build order
>send some shit to scout while doing that
>scout them doing a build order that counters yours
>lose
>>316573005
mfw have some friend who plays lel and thinks it's complicated
Reminder that AI is moddable in Age of Empires II. And it will kick your ass and make a good opponent. I suggest downloading 7 unique ones and having a big free for all.
>>316572861
Fucking kill yourself
>>316573024
MOBAs are successful because they took the "strategy" aspect that RTS were always supposed to be about, and actually implemented it in a way that doesn't require the player to multitask 500 things at once.
The greatest flaw of the RTS genre is a focus on micro over macro. Whenever most players play something like Starcraft, they feel like they're playing like shit. They realize all the things they're forgetting and all the mistakes they've made because the game throws them in your face. Other games with extremely high skill floors have this problem as well (like Rocket League). Players don't like feeling like they suck, even if they do.
MOBAs might be far simpler than most RTS games, but they're also far easier to play.
>>316572965
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I56BVEFaPOM
>>316572772
Shhh-ah!
>>316573180
>The person or group that wins is the one that gets the resources to build their army the quickest.
Isn't the strategy denying their attempts at more resources, while getting youro wn and scouting their tech and countering whatever units they're building?
How do you have fun with RTS games anyway?
It all seems like the same chore and everyone is trying to do the same chore but faster than anyone else.
>>316573193
>Not to mention Total Annihilation or SupCom
they were buildings and buildings counted towards your unit cap too
>>316573364
HAAAH
WAAAW
>MOBAS
>STRATEGY
HAAAAAAHHHHHH
I have 1200 hours in Dota 2 and I can safely state that it's fuckall about strategy.
There is no strategy
>>316573364
"strategy aspect"
What are you even talking about? The strategies used in your typical game of Dota can't even be remotely compared to your typical game of starcraft. The only similarities these games share is a fucking camera viewpoint. They are entirely different genres.
>>316572901
>the game pushes me to my limits
>i can't handle it
>waaah waaah
>abloobloobloo
just stick to campaigns then you crybaby
>>316573364
>mobas
>strategy
do i press R to instakill someone now or later?
>>316572772
>What's the fundamental flaw of RTS games?
They're bad at communicating the objective of the game to the players.
They lack developer support (i.e. someone to try and fix this) as Blizzard doesn't have a competent dev team anymore and no one else is actually out there.
>>316572772
The "real time" part. Time shouldn't be a constraint in a strategy game.
>>316573459
If you aren't 5k you aren't actually playing dota, so take your worthless opinion and shove it up your ass.
AoE 2 is the perfect strategy game, the only issue it has is that the netplay is laggy when you have many people.
What's the fundamental flaw of FPS games?
The problem is most people are shit at them, get stomped by a veteran in multiplayer, and thus give up after the campaign.
They boring as hell like for real
For me is that there always seems to be an optimal startegy to follow, and if youre good at it you win.
I think a good RTS should be about adapting to situations and not knowing what to expect, just being good at using different tools for different situations.
>>316572772
The only good thing about RTS' is the story. Gameplay by itself is a snoozefest since it's pretty slow.
>>316573364
>MOBAs are successful because they took the "strategy" aspect that RTS were always supposed to be about, and actually implemented it in a way that doesn't require the player to multitask 500 things at once.
RTT like World in Conflict did that arguably a million times better while keeping more in touch with the roots of the genre rather than relying on hamfisted RPG mechanics.
I have never played a RTS game with other players.
>>316573551
They're only as slow as you are.
>>316573420
No! It's only strategy if you're allowed to sit in your base for 30 minutes building the highest tier army and researching upgrades before moving out.
>>316573180
there is strategy, it's called real time strategy because you be strategic on the go
if you see someone getting a lot of resources then you kill their workers or the important buildings so they can't tech
i bet you don't even scout
>>316573578
epic
Tell me your username so I could send you gold for that sick burn.
>>316573552
>hamfisted RPG mechanics
Blame WC3 for that.
>>316573474
>>316573464
>>316573459
Strategy is not a relative term. Since there is a lower barrier for entry for MOBAs compared to RTS games, the player can focus on the macro aspects rather than figuring out how to play their character. Objectives, vision, itemization etc... This is the gameplay that most people want to get out of RTS games without having to go through all the bullshit to get there.
MOBAs being simple from a strategic standpoint has absolutely nothing to do with my original point.
>ABLOO ABLOO 30+ MIN NO RUSH ABLOO NOOBS ONLY ABLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>>316573358
These graphics are SHIT
>>316573523
The "first person" part removing the "shooting" part by making me (a non-tryhard) who just wants to have some fun and shoot pellets at others being killed by nigger retard try-hards that only care about winning (unlike me). LET ME WIN FOR ONCE!!!!111
What happened to the days of playing RTS with a friend against multiple NPC enemies on the highest difficulty and playing one game for hours?
It's just complete it as fast as possible these days.
I think the best RTS I've played was American Conquest or Cossacks because of how big it was.
>>316573474
>>316573459
>>316573464
Shit son watch out we've got the RTS purists in here. And I thought the days were long gone
>>316573516
rmm is just a measurement on how well you can handle 4 other randoms on your team
while it's not a completely irrelevant value, it shouldn't be seen as a true measurement of skill
>>316573364
they feel like they're playing like shit because they don't understand the game properly
>>316573516
5.2k thanks to following CLQ religiously.Party queue, but hey, why would you play Dota 2 with randoms anyway?
The concept of CPM is what bothers me about strategy. I don't play multiplayer for those types of games because everyone who plays has been playing for years and their CPM is often well over 100.
Is anyone still playing aoe3?
Games like SC2 are too rigid, making for like three different build orders that are just optimal and everyone follows
It's not as bad for games like AoE2 since you have to adapt to the map and the enemy players but still, that would probably be the biggest fundamental problem with the genre
>>316572772
Slow paced RTS is boring and fast paced is too difficult for casuals. Even in the genre's heyday only a small minority actually played the games correctly.
define strategy
>>316573180
>tfw not very good at strategy games
>tfw like to build my base and level up my shit and get ready for a nice foot slog
>tfw playing a six player match online
>tfw everyone too busy fighting each other to even look at me
>tfw playing as imperial guard
Hope you like tanks eldar motherfuckers. ahh that was a good day.
>>316573698
Isn't 2 superior to 3 though?
>the player can focus on the macro aspects rather than figuring out how to play their character
Still, RTS macro aspects =/= ASSFAGGOTS macro aspects. They simplified everything.
>>316572772
Cheating AI.
>>316573624
Yeah your post makes it pretty obvious you played Dota for a few weeks at most.
>>316573698
More people playing AoE 2 than 3, bruv.
>>316572772
RTT is more fun for a stupid shitter like me.
>>316573631
it's a meta screenshot out of several
pretty sure that it was just cropped badly at that particular location
>>316573716
letting me sit in my base for ten minutes and build a pretty castle
>>316573682
Anons point was that real coordination doesn't happen below a mmr barrier, so people flailing around in 3k aren't really playing the game and can't comment about its strategies
>>316573735
Yes, but I still prefer 3 over 2
>>316573678
don't worry, you'll always have hordes of plebs like you to shield you from evil try-hards.
>>316573624
>itemization is the gameplay that most people want to get out of RTS games
what the fuck am I reading?
>>316573738
meant for >>316573624
>>316572772
GOD I FUCKING HATES THOSE GRANARIES
WHY ISN'T THEIR SIZE THE SAME AS A FIELD
THAT LOOKS LIKE SHIT
GODDAMNIT
Whenever I play RTS I like to build up my base and units before even thinking about attacking. This means I'll do upgrades and more buildings before troops so if you're a rusher you'll always beat me..
>>316573696
CPM?
>>316573768
>10 min castle
shit son you'd be best in the world
They're shit?
Anyone here still play Generals Zero Hour occasionally? Playing all stealth general FFA with friends was one of the most fun experiences I've had in RTS.
>>316573696
>100
>a high number
>CPM instead of APM
tattoo "i dont know what i'm talking about" on your forehead
>>316573520
How do I fix that shit
I just want to have 500 pop battles with my friends without the game running at 1 fps or flat out crashing
>>316572821
>>316572861
Wrong.
>>316572896
Partially true.
>>316572901
>>316572965
Wrong.
>>316572965
Depends on how expansion works.
WC3 is still ork centric to this day, because Blademaster can do a early rush to strain the enemy economy.
Star Craft is rush centric because the stronger units are not that much stronger.
Age of Empires is rush heavy if resource gathering has to be spread out on that map
It doesn't have to be that way either.
>>316572772
not enough hotkeys
>>316572772
micromanagement
>>316573624
I've had the same problems trying to break into the RTS genre for the same reasons you're describing. The repetition of micromanagement isn't nearly what I would expect from a game that requires strategy to defeat an opponent. Dota allows me to break away from things like unit build orders which is relaxing.
>>316573658
No idea. SC2 has BGH maps too but it just doesn't feel the same because the battles end so fast even at 300 supply. In BW you'd have epic big battles that could last up to multiple minutes.
>>316573658
American Conquest and Cossacks are awesome. I'm looking forward to the new Cossacks, it looks like they've taken the refined shooting mechanics from Conquest and updated the engine to full 3d but other than that it's all the same Cossacks. Hopefully it won't be shit but I still have a bad feeling.
>like RTSs
>suck at them
>tfw
I just want an RTS where I can stop time to give commands in the middle of battle, like party based RPG games but on a bigger scale. I know that RTS stands for "Real Time" but still...
The AI in RTS games is either a cheating fuck or a drooling retard. Playing on normal, the AI sends 5 units to attack your impregnable fortress of doom. Playing on hard, the AI bum rushes you with units because they have unlimited money.
>>316573828
Cocks per minute.
>>316573624
>Objectives, vision, itemization
Uh what? Most people like base building and army management and freedom of development. Fucking everyone and their grandmom's dog that played RTS games probably had at least a few games where they built fuckhuge fortifications and duked it out for hours, building organized farms and making city structures against the meta. A significant portion of people play exclusively like this, especially in games like OP's pic.
>>316573827
>Whenever I play RTS I like to build up my base and units before even thinking about attacking.
thank you for your contribution you special snowflake never-been-thought-of-before strategic mastermind
>This means I'll do upgrades and more buildings before troops
what about making troopsand sitting them in your base to defend you from evil rushers?
>>316572772
>WAAHHHH I WANT TO BEAT PEOPLE BUT I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO ACTUALLY DO THINGS TO BEAT THEM WAAHHHHHH
>>316573837
I never claimed to, and nitpicking on those facts doesn't affect my argument.
>>316573596
>there is strategy, it's called real time strategy because you be strategic on the go
Not really.
Just like Fighting games aren't the only games about actual conflict, RTS games are simply named as such because "virtual wargames" sounds bad (VW is a car company, wargames are just toys and games had to not be toys abck in the day).
The only remotely strategic games are the grand strategy games and those have an infinite pause to invalidate the real time statement.
>>316573840
Thanks anon everyone likes the guy who goes in to say true or wrong without explaining his thoughts because we're all great at mind reading
>>316573690
Because the games require too much of an investment in order to properly understand. Here's what goes through the head of a typical Starcraft player:
>oh fuck I'm supply capped I forgot to keep building pylons
>shit I forgot to keep making probes
>goddamnit I forgot the forward pylon for reinforcements
>uhh are my warpgates off cooldown...where's that hotkey...
>where's my fucking forge I need upgrades
>oh shit I'm getting harassed at my natural
>fuck my main ran out I need another nexus
>shit my nexus is full on energy I need to keep using chrono
>need canons in my main
etc... it's not fun for players and it takes an unreasonably high amount of practice to get to the point where those things aren't a concern and you get to the actual strategy aspects.
>>316573748
Have anything substantial to say or just shitposting?
>>316573809
You misunderstood. Strategy is the gameplay people want to get out of RTS games. Itemization is part of the strategy in MOBAs.
>>316573738
I never said otherwise. I get it, you want to show everyone how much you hate MOBAs. Can we move past that?
>>316573364
>Rocket League
>high skill floor
>>316573827
you know you can build up your base and attack at the same time, right
AoE/AoM master race, none of that 'APM' shit and whatnot, just quick thinking and observation.
>>316573879
Me and a friend used to play it and because the AI difficulty was crazy we had to put the peace time on like 2 hours in order to prepare. Good times.
>>316573776
m8 I have only the deepest respect for the people that actually put up with the APM shitfest that is Starcraft, I never got beyond plat in 1v1. I just find it hilarous how these guys are trying to deny that MOBA is a direct successor to RTS
>>316573938
Rocket league is quite difficult to play. Even mediocre players completely miss the ball frequently and have difficulties controlling their movement.
>>316573829
Thanks senpai, you're pretty good too
>>316573948
Don't have the micro I guess
>>316573931
Pleased to be of service to uneducated plebs and children.
>>316573938
Maybe he meant skill ceiling
He didn't but it would make sense, RL really does have a high skill ceiling
But you can start playing it within like half a minute so you can't exactly talk about a high skill floor
>>316573934
And MOBA's have hundreds of characters and items that all interact with each other and counter each other with communtiies that often harshly criticize players who don't perfectly build the most perfect thing every time, down to the last ward. MOBA's require a ridiculous amount of time to understand, it's simply a massively wide pond that at first appears only a few inches deep because of the mechanical simplicity.
I want another Rise of Nations game. Or hell even an entire genre, that franchise did RTS perfectly.
>>316573992
What's best for Rocket League? Gamepad or M+KB?
>>316573952
Except both of those still take high APM to macro if you don't want to get wrecked
>IT'S THE GAME'S FAULT, NOT ME
we've had this discussion a million times already
>>316574037
>I don't know what skill floor is!
Yea, you can start playing it in half a minute and not even be able to hit the fucking ball.
>>316573424
Goddammit, don't remind me of this.
At least the limit could be taken to 1000 in SupCom.
>>316573489
That's like saying that open world games are bad at presenting the path that player should take.
in RTS games, you set the objective.
>>316573992
Yeah, racing games ain't that popular so very few players have any skills that carry from other games. This is actually why some of my friends don't want to play the game as it doesn't help them to play other games so the time invested into rocket league is wasted.
>>316573358
I think one of your workers is a weeaboo
>>316574043
Never played that, isn't it where you go from stone age to space age? I wonder if an army of cave men can beat an advanced enemy?
>>316574040
>mechanical simplicity
Yes, we're discussing mechanical simplicity. This isn't a difficult concept, I'm not sure why you're having trouble understanding it. MOBAs make the player feel like they are playing decently, even if they aren't. How simple or complex they are at the top level is completely irrelevant.
>>316572772
It's not really strategy, all you're doing is spamming units taht slowly drain the health of the other guy's units.
Also no matter what you do your base will never be comfy, it'll always be a cluttered mess.
For this reason, TBS is the superior genre.
>>316573364
>MOBAs are successful because they took the
And then you fell of the train.
Moba is good because its PVP multiplayer, in a RPG game. With lots of objectives and lots of action.
So you get to
1. Pick a hero
2. Level up the hero
3. Buy gear for the hero
4. Kill lots of cool stuff
5. Kill other players
6. Rage in All Chat
7. Kill objectives
8. Win games
9. Do teamwork
Not that Dota or LoL matchmaking gives you any of those
RTS games are so god damn intensive when it comes down to it, just you and your opponent trying to out-think and out-skill each other for a pretty large period of time. Many people aren't cut out for such.
ASSFAGGOTS are easy, it's no longer 1v1, it's 5v5 and just that fundamental change alleviates a lot of the pressure, you're no longer gauging the opponent as much as just trying to work together with the team.Casuals
>>316574043
Rise of legends 2 when?
>>316574073
Anon within half a minute I probably made the first goal of my game
Skill floor is how easy it is to get started. Rocket League has simple controls and a simple goal, pushing the ball in the enemy goal. It's skill floor is really low. Its skillc eiling however, describing how good you can get and how much you can improve from your beginner ways, is pretty high
>>316572772
too hard for normies
>>316574068
And we'll have it another million times more because people are stubborn flawless little snowflakes.
>>316573732
Eldar in DoW1 is ridiculous if the player using it has any degree of skill. Which is why I'm giving you kudos for playing as IG masterrace.
>>316573934
>I never said otherwise. I get it, you want to show everyone how much you hate MOBAs. Can we move past that?
Why is /v/ full of filthy casuals?
>>316574040
Cookie cutter builds that and strategies that leave no space for innovation.
>>316574134
It goes from stone to information age.
Endgame upgrades include instant unit creation and some other shit I don't remember. It got crazy.
Most of modern RTS games end up being an action game about who can click the fastest, micro and manuvering. You just follow a flowchart for the strategy part "I'm doing X rush, I'm going Y+Z with upgrade W". Starcraft is the posterboy for the genre and for these problems.
>>316573364
>Whenever most players play something like Starcraft, they feel like they're playing like shit
That's because they ARE playing like shit and it's impossible to make a game that won't make them feel like shit while also having a high enough skill ceiling to be worth playing for any period of time.
>>316573358
that farm placement is so fucking shit holy fuck
>>316574215
>Cookie cutter builds that and strategies that leave no space for innovation.
This is't true for the good contenders of the genre though, being doto2 and HoN
>>316574134
You create a nation, expand your boarders and advance through stages of civilization in real time. Units advanced with the era but the only major difference was stat benefits. You could easily beat a unit of gunpowder infantry with bows but lose more units.
>>316574151
>out-think and out-skill each other
They are both trying to do the exact same thing, just one faster than the other.
>>316574146
Then why mention meta aspects of gameplay? it doesn't take long for players in an RTS game to learn how to group units and place buildings. People can easily play an RTS game without knowing much of what they're doing and still feel like they're accomplishing something, especially against AI. The fact of the matter is that MOBA's have matchmaking systems that keep the shitters paired with shitters while many RTS games often throw extremly skilled players at noobies. It has nothing to do with the mechanical aspects of the game, it's the nature of the communities.
>>316572772
The idea that the general would have total control over each and every unit.
>>316573193
>And they never had the Stukov missions for the PC
>get n64 version
>get to last half of last campaign, saved game corrupted have to start over.
>get to last campaign again,
>brother accidentally deletes all data. get to last level again
>finally beat it
>get to stukov level
>well, this is garbage, i hope they dont expand on this in starcraft 2 it would be retarded if kerrigan got cured after everything.
>mfw playing sc2
>>316572772
build fast
scout
counter
wow so fun
>>316574205
Everything about them is completely broken. There is a list of how all their shit is broken. Luckily two of them were fighting each other, space marines and necrons at the same time. Finding those fucking webways though.
>>316572772
Build orders and all that bollocks.
'strategy' turns into MASH EVERY BUTTON AS FAST AS POSSIBLE AND CLICK EVERYWHERE
Also most RTS games have about 5 units which is shit.
>>316574043
My nigga. This game was the best.
>>316572965
>>316573005
Just because your enemy builds units faster than you and attack sooner doesn't mean it's a "rush".
>>316574303
It's a race to the early stages of arthritis.
>>316574339
>Run fast
>Kick ball hard
Wow football is so fun.
>>316574378
You mean soccer.
>>316574378
Football is fun though tbf
>>316574149
>mobas are successful because
>not that Dota or LoL matchmaking gives you any of those
Did you intend to undermine your own argument immediately after you made it?
>>316574165
>Skill floor is how easy it is to get started
No, skill floor is the minimum amount of effort required to play the game at an effective level. Simply, it's a measure of how long the player feels like they suck at the game.
>>316574275
>That's because they ARE playing like shit
Obviously. This isn't about how good they are, it's about how good they feel like they are.
>>316574312
>it doesn't take long for players in an RTS game to learn how to group units and place buildings.
There's a lot more to micro than simply grouping units and placing buildings. It doesn't help that the game constantly reminds you of your fuckups. Human brains aren't particularly good at multitasking, and games that require a large degree of it often make players feel more stressed and frustrated than anything.
>>316574378
One is a sport.
The other is a dying genre of vidya only koreans can get good at.
Leave it to /v/ to get confused about this.
>>316572965
That's what keeps me away from RTS most of the time - it's much less about strategy than it is about speed and I don't like that at all.
I'd love a really slow-paced and strategic RTS with multiple viable strategies, all of which differ in more than just clicking a different button to get a different unit or building, but it seems like that's generally not a thing.
Oh well, I guess TBS are fine too.
>>316573465
the problem is the whole population of people who were pushed to their limits years ahead of you and overcame them. But I only tried Bnet for SC1, not 2. Maybe the system with leagues help a bit with this
>>316574407
Shouldn't you be asleep yank?
>>316573929
Sounds to me like you're basing your entire idea of strategy on games like chess. Choosing builds (economy vs aggression), working to counter your enemy's chosen tech, etc is strategy and exist in RTS games. A better argument would be whether the word 'strategy' is even a good descriptor of a genre since strategy exists virtually anywhere you have human vs human confrontation.
>>316574456
Fuck responsibility, I've got shitposting to do.
>>316574427
Because solo matchmaking in neither game is truely good.
>>316574407
Anon your shit just doesn't make any sense. You constantly kick a ball with a foot, it's football. You sometimes kick an egg-formed thing and carry it around with your hands most of the time, it's 'something' but doesn't get the terminology spot over the actual 'kick ball with foot' game.
>>316574339
BUT THAT REQUIREZ ZKIILLLL
PLEB PLEB PELB
>>316574438
What you fail to understand is that RTS at its core IS about speed. You need to stop and ask yourself why you'd ever play an RTS over a turn based game. The only difference between the two is the speed at which you play, so it makes sense that RTS would have a heavy focus on speed.
>>316574335
Well Kerrigan's case was radically different from Stukov's.
The cure intended for Stukov wore off and the infestation re-emerged.
>>316574506
That's what I call taste the rainbow.
>>316574438
you might enjoy Warcraft 3 if you haven't played it already
>>316573162
I wonder how fun EU4 would be in competitive multiplayer. Problem, I bet, would be that only one build would be viable and that would kill all the charm in the game. Maybe that's what's wrong with RTS: excessive competition stream-lines away all the charm of playing them
>>316574303
I think you're oversimplifying, sure, they're both trying to 'beat' each other.
I don't really like Starcraft as it feels really samey every match, but AoE 2 has wonderful things in it that make it great.
>Should I build more units now or save gold and try to boom
>What if he's going for a knight rush? Better scout that out
>I need to allocate my defenses and tactics based on the current raw resource placement.
Etc etc.
It's a juggle of mindgames between the players where you have to make assumptions based on observations of the other player and then capitalize on what you think the enemy is going to do.
Starcraft 2 has a lot of unnecessary fluff there to keep it 'micro-intensive', like the fucking zerg queens, protoss buff and that terran call down. Can't really remember the names anymore. Maps are always the same with the only differences being enemy placement which is scouted out early anyway.
>>316574438
>>316574520
Turn based strategy is all about rushing too.
Only difference is you have to rush by making intelligent purchases and gathering the proper resources and technlogies before the other guy.
Casual multiplayer is flawed when one guy googles a building ordernstrategy and sreamrolls everyone else
Pro multiplayer is too complicated and fast paced to be apprwciated by anyone but the pros
>>316574427
>Simply, it's a measure of how long the player feels like they suck at the game.
Yes, and it's minutes for RL because at that point you'll be able to drive around and dribble the ball into the enemy goal. You wo't do any fancy tricks, you won't fly around a lot, but you'll hit the goal. Compare that to something like doto where you don't know what the fuck is going on for the first few hours and you might see the difference. RL is like the definition of a low skill-floor, high skill-ceiling game. Accessible controls, clear-cut goal and way to get there, but lots of room for skill and improvement.
What are the no-rush settings in real life?
>>316574205
>get Dark Crusade
>never played a 40k game before
>pick Necrons
>roflstomp everything with zero effort
>until I meet IG
>kill a hundred guardsmen
>kill a thousand guardsmen
>THEY DON'T STOP COMING
>the top ground layer is literally composed of dead guardsmen and the occasional Necron
>suddenly Baneblade shows up and blasts half my army into oblivion
>teleport the awakened monolith in
>they pulverize it and rape my Necron Lord for the fifth time
>>316573886
supreme commander lets you do exactly this
not online mind you but that shouldn't be a problem as the singleplayer campaign is excellent
>>316574292
>You could easily beat a unit of gunpowder infantry with bows but lose more units
Nope, difference between age of gunpowder and middle age is one of the biggest in the game, primitive gun wileding grunts are simply effective against all infantry types, outside of cavalry charges they're pretty rapey against everything else, although for some odd reason archer boats are better that caravella ships.
>>316574549
>you might enjoy Warcraft 3 if you haven't played it already
>multiple viable strategies
Warcraft 3 has a single viable strategy, that being the Blademaster strat.
And the other issue about the fact every strategy is essentially the same still rings true for him.
>>316572772
The market
the main flaw of RTS is that gamers have become casaul shitters that don't want to improve, they just want to feel overpowered, and that just doesn't work in RTS
>>316574215
>Cookie cutter builds that and strategies that leave no space for innovation.
Every single game that gets competitive will have people figuring the best way to play.
Being innovative is something that is only allowed to the people that actually mastered the standard way to play, and this is true in any game that it's worth a damn.
You're not being innovative for doing weird things and it's not the fault of the game that you're losing to standard builds, you're just doing dumb shit and losing because you're doing suboptimal dumb shit.
If you don't understand and master the rules you can't break them.
>>316574554
Multiplayer and social media focus is the cancer killing videogames. Since the beginning of times, there have been games better suited to play with friends and others better suited to play them on your own.
I've never enjoyed PvP RTSs, nor any Mobas.
>>316574664
>x game lets you..
>just not in multiplayer
so like very other game
>>316574618
>at that point you'll be able to drive around and dribble the ball into the enemy goal
Sure, if you're playing against no one. Otherwise you'll watch the ball soar overhead while you miss it by a hundred feet. Then you'll watch it zip past you because you're going too slow, then you'll fly by it on the go around because you were going too fast.
The experience for a new player in Rocket League is knowing exactly what you want to do in a given situation, but being unable to make your car actually do it. The skill floor is very high, which is why most players fucked around for a few hours and never bothered with it again.
>>316574601
So basically it's the same as RTS. And chess. And REAL LIFE.
Not enough skellingtons.
>>316574632
>having sex: HA I came in 10 seconds gg no re
>bar fight: throw a gorillion punches per minute with no power behind them because SPEEEEED
>work: sprint into building, trip, fall, break your dick, become millionaire
It kind of works I guess.
>>316574632
Getting degree in medicine, most late game strategy that there is.
>>316574634
FOR EVERYONE OF US THAT FALLS, TEN MORE WILL TAKE HIS PLACE!
>>316573716
Risk management for one, knowing when to trade with people etc. knowing when to defend your base and when to let it get wrecked while you use your main army to do more damage to his base. knowing when/how to scout. having sentries, knowing how to move your units.
I have had a few games when a persons macro was better than mine, and their micro was better than mine, but i managed the map in a more clever way so i won anyways.
Do you realize that you're complaining about having to press buttons in order to play a videogame?
No strawmanning, no simplification of arguments, you ARE complaining about having to press buttons.
>>316574342
>There is a list of how all their shit is broken
I am aware. Which is why I hate the fuck out of anyone who uses them in a match and go after them with intense prejudice.
>>316574768
Naw, not the same as chess.
I was just thinking to myself that the only time you get real strategy is when you remove base building and make that a pregame setup kind of thing like chess or blood bowl.
>>316574695
the blademaster strategy is easy to beat if you can micro and macro decently
>playing human? build arcane towers then grab mountain kings hammer out
>playing orc? hex him with the shadow hunter
>playing undead? put him to sleep with dreadlord
>playing night elf? mana burn with demon hunter
if all else fails you can just macro properly so he cant get into your base
>>316574837
Then you don't understand chess. Chess is all about rushing to control the middle of the board. Once you're there you've basically won.
>>316574714
yeah, starcraft multiplayer with friends was fun before people started watching koreans for cues and measuring out the space between their leg and the bottom of the desk for optimal hand coordination. I gotta get a good group of geek friends together now that we're too old to git gud, we could have fun now.
>>316572772
control interface
too challenging for even the best players in the world to do what they want with units.
>>316574750
But anon, I played against my friends and after a few minutes of warm-up we were already having engaging matches, with goals going back and front, people crashing into each other, using rocket boosts to go fast and goal-keep and so on. We weren't playing anywhere close to perfectly and anyone slightly decent would have raped us, but we still played the basic game in all its functionality, just with less skill. Because we surpassed th skill floor, but weren't even close to seeing the skill ceiling.
You still keep mistaking skill-floor for ceiling. Switching your car mid-air through boosting to hit the ball in a specific angle is something I can think of, but not actually do in practice, because I'm not skilled enough to do so. But doing that is not somehow a base-requirement for playing the game- it's an advanced strategy, something covered in the gap between skill floor and ceiling, not between '0 minutes played beginner' and skill floor.
>>316574883
Fair enough, I am a shitty chess player so you're probably right.
However I'm pretty good at blood bowl, I'd say it's a good example of a pure strategy game with no rushing faggotry. Too bad there's never been a half way decent vidya adaptation.
>>316574714
Good thing that doesn't apply here since RTS have been focused on multiplayer since WC2.
>>316572772
Poor balance between strategizing and >>316572901
I'm not whining about it being too hard to do shit, but the outcome depends a bit too much on how good you are at clicking a lot of things very fast rather than strategy.
>>316574704
>Every single game that gets competitive will have people figuring the best way to play.
The good games don't allow that.
Go is simply unsolvable with our technology, thus you can only rely on your skills (developed tactics) and a proper strategy.
Chess is only solved to a certain move, so past that, you're on your own and back to thinking it all out on the move.
This is all in stark contrast to competitive RTS games, all of which are already solved and you simply have to execute them correctly.
They're more akin to a fighting game where all the moves are obvious, you just need to have better execution than your opponent.
>>316574973
Why do you think the term skill floor exists if it only refers to the minimum amount of time where you can *literally* begin to play the game? What kind of games could you possibly be referring to?
>>316574704
Unless you introduce some kind of variables that change the game with every round. It's hard to think of something liket hat without making it annoying for the player, though. Like, you play in stormy weather, reducing effectiveness of bow weapons by x%, forcing players who intended to spam ranged units to switch their setup. Hell, maybe even introduce that mid-round and have people adapt.
>>316574995
What about FUMBBL Or however you spell it?
>issued three warnings in a row
lol mods
>>316574995
what's fun about chess is it has had time to develop strategically over more than a century, and ideas are still being refined or refuted. it's cool, but it's very hard to become a part of
RTSes suck because I suck at them and have no interest nor time to git gud
>>316574520
The main reasons I'd rather play RTS than TBS are the limits implied by turns.
Speeding things up or slowing them down, for example - something that usually takes three turns might be sped up to take two turns instead, meaning you can only speed up the process by at least 33%. On the other hand, something that usually takes one turn can only be delayed by at least one turn, making it take 100% more time.
What I'm trying to say is that turns are severly limiting your design options if you don't want to break the system entirely. This could be mitigated by making everything take a lot of turns, but that would make the game way too slow, not in terms of gameplay, but rather in terms of time it takes to process turns.
The grid system most TBS use also annoys me greatly and totally breaks the immersion in many cases.
It's just too "rough" in many ways when compared to the elegance of RTS.
RTS games are a timesink, and no timesink video games are worth getting into in the long run of life.
>>316575101
It's definitely better than that abortion cyanide spewed forth from their dirty french whore hole but idk I never got into it.
Blood Bowl should really be played with people you know imo.
>>316575057
No, extremely random games don't have that, but any game that has a semblance of stability in the variables of every game will be eventually studied by competitive people to figure out if there are ways to materialize your game understanding into more optimal play.
That is not something bad, that is not something that "hinders innovation", that is something natural, and it means the game has enough depth that studying it grants you an advantage over people that plays it blindly.
I'm not talking about "solving" the game, no RTS has been solved ever, you're just being terribly ignorant, you're probably thinking of Starcraft since it's the game everyone flocks to when they hear the word "autistic gookclick" but BW kept seeing new strategies 9 years after it's release, the same goes for SC2.
>>316574826
I want to command an army of marines anon, not play the fucking piano.
>>316575061
Dwarf Fortress has a high skill floor, because to start playing most people need to play with a guide, and to get your first self-sufficient fort you need a few hours of learning the ropes
Dota has a high skill floor, because its goals, mechanics, meta, everything is obstuse and can only be learned through guides, or being in the live situation and watching others do it right. The very least a player has to know is going to a lane, what items to buy at the beginning, the fact that you don't autoattack enemy creeps, that you don't use your skills randomly, and so on.
Of course you can now argue about when a skill transists for some elemental requirement to an advanced strategy. But my point still stands- A game that anyone can play to some minimum standard, without any exterior help, within a few minutes of starting the game, has a low skill floor.
>>316575057
>They're more akin to a fighting game where all the moves are obvious
Nigga do you even oki
>>316575260
Some people don't know anyone who likes blood bowl. Or table top games for that matter.
>>316575065
>Unless you introduce some kind of variables that change the game with every round. It's hard to think of something liket hat without making it annoying for the player, though. Like, you play in stormy weather, reducing effectiveness of bow weapons by x%, forcing players who intended to spam ranged units to switch their setup. Hell, maybe even introduce that mid-round and have people adapt.
THIS
There needs to be some random factor happening at some interval (fixed or not) to have some fun with them.
Otherwise it becomes this>>316572965
>>316575335
Yep, kind of sucks that the best IRL mutliplayer activity aside from orgies is practiced mostly by the antisocial.
>>316575296
>Dota has a high skill floor
Nonsense. You could take the exact same thing you said about Rocket League and apply it to DOTA, almost word for word.
>A game that anyone can play to some minimum standard, without any exterior help, within a few minutes of starting the game, has a low skill floor.
That would constitute nearly every game ever made then.
Which civilization is the most annoying to fight against in AoE2?
>>316573732
>Playing on 2v2 mountain map
>Both me and my friend is IG
>Spam sentry turret and the HB squads for IG
>Entire path is blocked by 40+ turrets and both of our enemies are Orkz
>They get free sluggas and hundreds of Squiggoths and Orkz run to their deaths
>Bombing the fuck out of their base with Basilisks
>Checked how many units they lost in that game
>55k
IG doesn't fucking play around.
>What's the fundamental flaw of RTS games?
1. Many fast-paced RTS games boil down to heavy micro-management, meaning that instead of the victor being decided by actual strategizing it's usually more about who is the fastest clicker and has memorized the meta build orders and other hotkey combinations by heart.
2. Despite most RTS games making the player oversee base building, scouting, resource gathering and actual fighting (possibly on multiple fronts) all at the same time, for some reason many games severely limit the max zoom out possibility, forcing players to use control groups, unreliable tiny mini-map or other hotkeys to constantly shift between all those aspects instead of being able to control everything on one screen. I have no fucking idea why devs do this since LoS already works to limit the player's visibility.
One reason I loved RUSE is because everything could be done with simple mouse clicks and control groups. The build screen was constantly visible, the build screen allowed you to stack units before actually ordering them and designate their waypoints, after which the nearest appropriate bases automatically started building those units. Bases themselves were built the same way: click where you want the base built and your HQ automatically sends out a building truck that could be intercepted by enemy forces (in which case the player loses the invested resources) or called back to HQ for refund. On top of those you could see the whole map at all times, making it easy to push multiple fronts at the same time and co-ordinate with your teammates.
>>316575372
there is a random interval
its called min max
>>316575442
Mongol
My time is more valuable than the time it takes to git gud at an RTS game.
>>316575514
Just like real life.
>>316575065
Have you ever heard of those things called "maps", anon?
>>316575556
SHUT THE FUCK OFF YOU NIGGER
>>316575461
IG and necrons are the most fun when you are playing defensively I think.
>>316575296
Needing to read a guide doesn't necessarily make DF have a high skill floor anon. I mean seriously all you need is a few hours and some reading competency, past that it's all basic organization skills.
>>316575431
Sure, these terms are hard to define. But why even use skill floor then, when it says absolutely nothing when applied to something like RL?
No seriousy, I really don't see how you can claim that RL has a high skill floor in any sense of the word. Can you give me an example of a low skill floor game, in your opinion?
>>316573516
>if you aren't a football player in a world champion team you aren't playing football
no you fucking idiot
people in these threads always seem like they just don't like videogames in general, at their very concept
they seem more interested in having an Interactive Explosion Simulator than an actual game, you know, with goals and rules and stuff
>>316573213
No it isn't.
>>316575604
Jesus man. I didn't know the mongols even had an internet defense force.
>>316575582
Not random enough
Your basic strategy is not going to change most of the time, you're going to be a little slower if your resource node is far away, or you'll have to wall it off if the enemy can easily harrass it, or something. You're still going to spam x unit with y faction with z build order, unless you see enemy doing a in which case you'll spam b unit with c BO
What the hell is a game's "meta"?
>>316575698
Nah he's obviously Russian or Chinese
They're not all like AI War: Fleet Command, which is the absolute pinnacle of strategy games bar none.
>>316575620
It does have a high skill floor for a single player management game, though. I mean these terms are all relative anyhow. You're not competing with anyone, so defining how skilled you are is pretty difficult. But compare DF to like Sim City- there you can immediately start building your first little town and it will slowly grow, albeit not at top efficiency.
>>316573630
>>316573465
>>316573837
holy shit this autist
>>316572772
>What's the fundamental flaw of RTS games?
Too difficult for the average console shitter.
>>316574634
Before I mained IG, I mained Necrons. Those guys were fucking OP for some time.
>>316575461
Did those Orks even send Nobs with Doks at you? Those can be really fucking hard to kill.
>>316573364
Do you even know what micro is? Games like LoL and DotA take out every aspect other than the micromanagement of units.
Strategy is a thing in every game, regardless of genre.
>>316572772
It isn't really flawed in my opinion, it just hasn't moved past the get stuff build stuff spawn stuff kill stuff formula, which isn't inherently bad but it's just too stale at this point.
>>316575787
Meta means how the game is played in general. What strategies are dominating, how you can expect others to play and how you should play in order to compete with them. Even though you might have a open toolbox of different units and stuff, only a certain number of them are used in a specific way.
>>316575472
/thread
>>316576008
But the same logic could be applied to every single game
Shooters: Hasn't moved past moving and shooting stuff
Racing: Hasn't moved past driving in cars
You're asking genres to stop being what they are, which is fucking stupid.
>>316572772
Lack of creativity
Its a stagnant as fuck genre that has failed to modernize.
Leave it to /v/ to blame the genre for being "stale" and "focused on speed" when the truth is they're just shit at it.
5 years ago this board wasn't as casual, what happened?
The only "real" RTS game I play regularly is Empire at War, and even then I mostly do space battles because land battles in that game are awful compared to the only other RTS game I can tolerate which is Company of Heroes.
They just move too damn fast for me. Age of Empires I can stand playing against AI with some friends but stuff like Starcraft just ends in frustration.
>>316576071
>Modernize
Explain "modernizing" to me, tell me how it would make strategy games as they are now better.
Take AI War: Fleet Command for example. How would you make it.. better? And don't use shit like "better graphics", you wouldn't be able to run AI War: Fleet Command if it had actual 3D graphics.
>>316576071
This.
Only a few games that are not like AoE, SC or C&C are played to this day due to being unique enough to not be forgotten.
stupid units that you HAVE to micromanage
>>316575472
Wargame was an improvement over ruse imo, but overall I agree this series fixed everything wrong with RTS.
Too bad the new Eugen game is more like a traditional RTS.
I really like RTS's
But the one thing I HATE about most of them is the whole "gotta rush in 5 minutes before anything else even happens HAHA I WIN!" and it just takes the fun out of it. It takes the fun out of long term management, building, economy, etc.. It just becomes an APM e-sport fuck fest otherwise.
>>316576053
Are you implying Shooters and Racing aren't stale?
Also some RTS avoid this formula like Wargame and they are the better for it.
>>316576159
>AI War: Fleet Command
Is that game goodeven if I suck at RTS?
I know it's basically impossible to beat on the higher difficulties, but is is possible to beat the AI with better strategy instead of needing 300 APM?
>>316576243
The meta goes as follows
Shitters: Build pretty towns, build random units, clash after an hour
Slightly less shitters: Learn first quick BO, shit all over shitters with your rush which they're not prepared for
Intermediate: Expect rush, beat off the slightly less shitter rush, win economic advantge
Pro: Use everything from super-rush to rush to mid-game to end-game, have to scout to figure out what the enemy is doing
Most people never go beyond shitter, because they get beaten by rush and that's very frustrating at the beginning
>>316576347
AI War: Fleet Command has a lot of things going to it that make it so you don't need StarCraft level APM, not even fucking close. You can automate most things in the game like production, patrolling.
Definitely possible to beat the AI on the lower levels, just do the tutorials.
>>316572861
Age of Empires 2 had it though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOEY2i6qfQU
>>316576159
How about basic physics? The only RTS that has ever gotten it right was MoW and even then they really didnt take it to the next level.
RTS games are so far behind in every technical aspect its just depressing. AI is still in the 90s, nearly all of them are blob vs blob, very few give you any real choice over the same upgrade systems we have had since the first RTS games, they all follow nearly identical rock paper scissors gameplay within their respective sub groups. Planetary annihilation got so much support early on because it actually looked like it was going to do something new with its planets based warfare, it dropped the ball but that was the developers fault not the idea itself.
The reason why we keep playing the same old RTS games over and over is because ever single new one is an old one in a different paint.
I like to think of RTS game as a 250+ 10aa longjump in counter strike 1.6 ~ It's fucking impossible to do it unless you spend GODLY amounts of gametime into it.
>>316576386
That's reversed for Wargame though.
>>316576446
>Basic physics
Do you have any fucking idea how taxing it would be for your CPU to calculate over a hundred men each running their own physics simulation? Games already lag with 100 players on the screen, now imagine what would happen if they all had realistic physics, you wouldn't be able to run that.
You can't ask that much from video games because the computers to run it are only found in places like the NSA.
How about a custom map that forces you to go through many high lvl enemy-to-all monsters before reaching one of the potential enemy bases?
They'd be unbeatable except with a high level army, so rushing is not possible.
>>316576507
>CPU to calculate over a hundred men each running their own physics simulation?
Wow, okay. You have absolutely no idea how games work.
Go actually learn something about video games before you make pretentious posts.
they aren't pharoh.
they're boring
>>316576582
I dont care much about rushing or whatever but that does sound fun. Could easily end up with people winning by just leading a bunch of monsters into the enemy base though.
>>316576683
not if there are, let's say, 4-5 monster encounters on the way to the enemy.
by kiting the 3rd, you'll be dead between the 4th-5th
>>316574285
>implying
>>316576582
Who the fuck would want to play a game that doesn't allow you any interaction with the enemy until you're almost maxed out.
Do you even like RTS or just building good-looking cities?
>>316576582
I don't know why but I see that kind of map working in a game like Tiberian Sun.
>>316576728
Just got to kite harder.
>>316576053
You're being too reductionist in your examples, I used reductionism because you really can boil RTS games down to that without leaving much out besides game specific balancing, the only RTS games that tried to deviate as far as I know were AoE3 and RoN and even those were just slight changes that could even be considered gimmicks, most just stuck to the formula religiously, legacy of the void was the latest major release and it's more of the same.
>Hasn't moved past moving and shooting stuff
shooters have either added elements from other genres or slipped into other genres, If just moving and shooting isn't your thing there are still games like portal, fallout, etc.
>Racing: Hasn't moved past driving in cars
rocket league comes to mind, but I'm sure there are better examples.
>>316576446
>How about basic physics?
I think they tried this in supcom, the problem being that after you get enough units in a single map the engine starts shaking apart.
>>316572772
>pic
Just how.
>>316576582
This actually sounds fun as fuck desu senpai
>>316576884
Isnt rocket league a football game, not a racing game?
>>316576683
There is actually a AoE2 map where one strategy is to lure neutral wolves into your enemy's base. It takes skill to execute and can backfire hard as the enemy can try and lure those wolves back into your base.
>>316576884
>the only RTS games that tried to deviate as far as I know were AoE3 and RoN
Seriously m8, try Wargame.
The whole series was a breath of fresh air and there's still people playing Red Dragon.
>>316576628
Nor Cleopatra, Zeus, Poseidon, Emperor...
>people on /v/ complain about SJWs demanding games to cater to them
>meanwhile, people on /v/ about RTS
>"I don't like this genre, they should change it to cater to my tastes"
>>316572772
Unstable equilibrium.
If the player is doing well, he can use his advantage to bully the opponent, win fights with fewer economies, or power his economy while the opponent plays catch-up, therefore getting further ahead.
If the player is doing poorly, he can be pushed off his resources, forced to lose units in engagements, or neglect his economy while he builds defenses, thereby getting further behind.
It's present in every game, but RTS have it harder because of how economy and military interplay - shit econ means shit military, and shit military means your econ gets harassed, but good military shuts down your opponent's econ, and good econ shits out deathballs.
>>316573364
I think the word you are looking for is tactics.
>>316576994
literally no one said that
no genre is without flaws, what's wrong with improvement?
why even bring SJWs into this?
>>316576961
I'll give it try, thanks.
>>316573290
or alternatively
>scout the enemy
>adjust your build on the go
I'm guessing you're one of those guys who just copy-pastes a build order from the internet
>>316577019
You just have to fight your way past that. I was playing some 2v2 300 custom map for battle for middle earth 2 and my partner got wiped the fuck out because he didn't watch the little passage like an idiot. I took over his side of the base and played to the strengths of my faction and the geography and managed to fight evenly with the other two guys until I had to leave the game. They probably would have beaten me but I thought it was surprisingly fair.
>>316576994
SJWs don't play games tho, they just actively search for something to complain about
When will you people learn this?
>>316576834
Most people in the thread complain that RTS don't let them go macro and build bases, but focus on fast clicking and micro rushes at the beginning. I proposed a way to counter that.
>>316574634
a couple of provinces really are harder than actual stronghold missions because the ai gets 2 bases and shitload of space to spam you to death with
Punishes the player for his mistakes.
That's a grave flaw.
>>316574781
what game?
>>316576582
boring after 10 hour mark>implying people complaining about evil APM even passed that value
>>316577657
Heroes of Annihilated Empires.
>>316577260
Neither people in this thread are playing RTSes.
>>316577272
when will you learn
you don't pander to casuals because casuals are not a lasting fanbase by definition, they'll jump ship to another massively marketed game flavor of the month shit
ITT:
>why can't i fly a jet just because i can't even ride a bike?! bugged flying mechanics! make the air less falling-y
>>316577880
who cares about a lasting fan base, you already pocketed their money
they'll come back after you release the shinier version one year later.
>>316577272
Because you won't avoid the problem with that, just misplace it.
If rushes become unviable, it will be a race of who can be the greediest motherfucker.
In the end, you'll still get stomped by people that know how to play greedy because they'll come with a maxed army minutes before you have one.
Just stop making these threads OP.
.
/v/ is incapable of coming to a sensible conclusion in this matter and never will be.
The place gets filled with RTS players who come in two distinct groups.
People who don't know how to play the current RTS games and want a change and those who adapted to a flawed genre and want to maintain the abomination alive.
Neither side will ever convince the other and a compromise is also impossible.
Let the former play what they have, let the latter enjoy Starcraft 2 in peace and leave the genre as it is.
There is enough games to satisfy both groups and that's where it ends.
There's no money or fame to be gained, just disappointment and misery, to say nothing of shitposting.
>>316576582
That sounds like a surefire way to ensure eternal stalemates.
>oh, you dug through to me? how nice of you, i'll now beat you without breaking a sweat thanks to my fresh army vs your army that has sustained losses
and so, nobody wins
>>316577880
I don't think it's a casual vs no casual question, in this particular instance.
I'm not talking about reaching worst korea's top player in SC2 levels, but in terms of learning how to rush and win a simple rts match online, it's usually doable and easy.
The problem is, for a lot of people , it's not fun. Not because it's hard to master or perform, but because it's conceptually unattractive. Playing with a couple of units and a small base and finish in a few minutes, in a game that in theory allows for big ass cities and huge armies is just bland.
Also
>lasting fanbase
RTS are , for the most part, dying-dead, so by definition the way they were handled in the past -which was rush focused- did not lead to a lasting fanbase. It led to genre death. So no, your point is wrong.
>>316578364
When people say the genre is dead is because it doesn't have mass crowd appeal.
But there's a hardcore focus of players that still play it precisely because the way it is.
In this very moment there are 27k SC2 matches, that is at least 50k players actively playing the game right now.
It's small? It's fucking laughable compared to games like LoL but it's there and it's not going anywhere anytime soon.
>>316578364
>dying-dead
how can something that's not an organism die?i want neo/v/ to leave
>so by definition the way they were handled in the past -which was rush focused-
it's impossible to create something without rushes because something has to happen eventually and those events which are conductive to happen the earliest are to be called "rushes"
besides, the time before the first possible rush is essentially playing PvE, and as such irrelevant
You really only need stong, cheap towers to make rushing unattractive. Then it'd be more about establishing strongholds on vital resources and it'd probably still lead to early aggression, but you can't be wiped out as early.
>>316572772
They are all the same
Autistic fanbase hates innovation
Muh esports
RTSes flop because gamers get frustrated when their failure is contingent on which part of the map they focus their attention.
Learning build orders is also tedious as shit.
Ideally, RTSes would be more complicated, but played in teams of two, on 100 inch displays that show the whole map at once.
>>316578596
Ender's game when
>>316572772
CHIECHIECHIECHIEEE! CHIECHIECHIECHIEEE! CHIECHIECHIECHIEEE!
>>316578596
>team games
ME OOGA
TEAM BOOGA
>on 100 inch displays that show the whole map at once
Strategic Zoom already exists anon.
>>316578550
*unsheathes tower rushes*
>>316578496
>It's small? It's fucking laughable compared to games like LoL
It's not the comparison with LoL that stings m8, it's the comparison with the past.
>>316578496
>t's there and it's not going anywhere anytime soon.
Once the generation that was there for the RTS Golden Age dies out, you're fucked.
Starcraft 2 is the biggest retainer, but once Activision Blizzard pulls the plug on the servers, they're all toast.
>>316578870
Melee matches in BW were never popular.
Most of the fanbase of WC3 and BW was custom games, not the actual game.
RTS games were never massively popular, custom games were.
And SC2 is fucking shit at custom games.
>>316578887
>but once Activision Blizzard pulls the plug on the servers, they're all toast.
So what?
They still haven't pulled the plug on SC1 or D2.
>>316578887
>Once the generation that was there for the RTS Golden Age dies out
Yeah, we see how conductive they are to actually playing RTS games instead of BadCityBuilders.
tourneyfags ruin the genre
>>316578496
>In this very moment there are 27k SC2 matches
might have something to do with that expansion that just came out but it's just a wild guess.
>>316579007
>I'm shit: the post
RTS is very multiplayer-focused (because multiplayer is where the smartest players are, and will be in the forseeable future until the AI programmers really get off their asses), but the problems with multiplayer are numerous. Equality for one, all players start off relatively equal which limits the number of strategical scenario that can exist. Example: a small free citystate controls a vital bridge you need for your war, will you bribe them, raze the city in a potentially expensive assault and alienate other free cities, or ignore it and lose a vital advantage? It coul never happen in a multiplayer game, the city player would not want to play as an inferior force, and even if he wanted to his objective would be like all the others(victory, not survival). And the focus on multiplayer makes the singleplayer only use multiplayer pieces, which is why its so common to have tech trees which you could complete in 15 minutes limited for each mission, instead of having expansive tech trees which naturally took a campaigns worth of gameplay time to complete, with pieces not tailored around fragile multiplayer balance.
>>316574151
This got me thinking. What if there was a more "team-focused" RTS where one force is controlled by several people at once? E.g instead of having one player controlling everything, you have one player who focuses mainly on economy-based things like gathering resources and building troops, and that player in turn has a few subordinate players who focuses on moving around the troops themselves? It would alleviate the pressure of one player having to manage everything at once, and encourage more teamwork and general strategy instead of having supreme micro skills.
>>316575698
There is a Mongolian in the system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZUB0kLLBUA
>>316579135
>triggered fighterfag
>>316579345
AoE2 can be played that way. Anno games, too.
>>316579345
>team games
me ooga
team booga
also no one would want to be the economy guy, everyone would want to be the ebin a-mover
>>316579345
Archon mode in SC2.
>>316572896
Corecto friends.
I wanna take time and build a base,not rush some Korean with 10 weak cheap soldiers.
Like>>316572953 says
>>316578596
There are some team based RTS games around and Day9 part of a team developing one. He seems to be excited about it so I hope it will be a good one.
>>316572772
There's a lot more focus on 'real time' than 'strategy'
I'm not saying that the latter isn't present at all, but APM is practically one of the most defining factors. However if you tried to take it away to close the gap between skill levels you'd probably have a shit game
>>316573952
Nah there's still tons of micro, especially with so many resource gatherers. Granted, Mythology is much easier but also faster.
You can get a ton of value out of even three Skirmishers if your micro is good, if the Green player was of lesser skill the villagers would have gotten to taking them out without too many casualties
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suzm0kFgT70
>>316579746
NO SHIT SHERLOCK
IT'S NOT THE SAME
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Im seeing a whole lot of posts which actually are "I dont like RTSs because of this" rather than real criticism.
People seriously dont even understand how plenty of shit works
>>316579345
This has been done to death in RTS games and the fact LotV advertises it as a new concept should give you sufficient idea of its prior success.
Make no mistake, the problem of the excessive management in RTS games has been studied since before 2000 but people simply dropped it and now no one gives a fuck any more as no one is making them any more.
The only advance was the SupCom zoom from 2007 but most "serious" people hate it.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1839/too_many_clicks_unitbased_.php?print=1
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3515/the_future_of_the_realtime_.php?print=1
>>316579345
AoE 2 has a feature where more than one player can control the same civilization. It's pretty shitty.
Otherwise some people pick booming civs in team games and sling resources for their allies' military production
>>316572772
>What's the fundamental flaw of RTS games?
Tiny scale. In two thousand-fucking-fifteen we only have a handful of RTS that are even close to scale.
>>316572772
RTS lately? too much focus on pizazz and zerg tactics, less on economics
>>316579843
imho that's actually a neat pattern
>>316580025
What game anon?
>>316574632
Inheritance of family establishment.
Lucking out over hobby, earns fortune
Medicine looks lategame oriented until you realize you have to get to med school, pass med school, and job isn't garanteed compared to other bachelor degrees in good technical trade.
>tfw you can't discuss AoE 2 anymore without nigger jokes popping up every time
>>316580025
I bet even that game has a map which is just a fraction of the "real" war, yet treats the map borders like invisible forcefeilds that completely cut off the scenario from the outside world
>>316580232
Heroes of Annihilated Empires I think
>>316578829
Can't rush when your builders get annihilated by the other sides towers
>>316580430
Best option would be to give the TC equivalent some long-range anti-building cannon
>>316574292
The 2nd tier of gunpowder units scales against WW1 and WW2 troops.
The early AA guns has no problems killing all but the later space age planes.
>>316580430
you're implying the other side set them up, which might not be true in case of the gigashitters
also setting them up outside of their range still denies map control easily, encircle the dude and you're set
fuck [\spoiler]
With the modern focus on competitive RTS like Starcraft, there's too much about skirmishing and constant combat. This is just an inherent problem with the genre though, since an optimal strategy will always arise and thus the whole strategy portion of RTS tends to start leaning towards the micro of unit management.
I want to spend ages building bases and then take them to war with massive sieges. Overall, I just wish the genre was more focused on macro decisions instead.
>>316580251
w-what?
>>316572772
me sucking at macro management.
when i play rts games its just feels tedious and not fun.
campaigns are cool though.
>>316580583
>you're implying the other side set them up
Well yeah that was kind of the baseline of my post, with towers being cheap and strong
And for the secod part, there could be a way to rather cheaply get rid of them, but without this also making rushing too strong again. Maybe build rams in your town center, and they're very slow? Then you could defend your perimeter and slowly advance with them, but can't effectively rush with them
Or some anti-building artillery in TC like >>316580565 suggested
>>316580690
African Kingdoms expansion came out for AoE II HD
Going by the name of it alone the threads become /pol/ bait and shitposters actually doubt anything of interest actually happened there. Even though they might turn into interesting history lessons, practically speaking the threads go fucking nowhere and you can't really discuss the expansion or even AoE II itself properly anymore.
>>316580805
>Well yeah that was kind of the baseline of my post, with towers being cheap and strong
don't ever underestimate the badness of people
hell, there are people out there who lose to fucking worker rushes
>but can't effectively rush with them
just because they're slow doesn't mean it's not a rush
>>316578596
The entire idea of build orders is a detriment to the genre. Where is the strategy when you can barely deviate from a build order except to rush or counter the enemy's rush?
>>316574378
>soccer
>fun
fucking pansies
>>316580340
Thanks bro
>>316581005
DIED
>>316580860
Now it's the time anon.
Most /pol/shitters are busy shitposting about France and the refugees, you could try to have a thinly veiled AoE 2 thread.
>>316580939
Yeah but if the take 10 minutes to reach the enemy base you got plents of time to prepare against them
You could make the individual ram expensive but basically invincible against arrows, that way they can eat up towers, but can still be beaten by the appropriate counterforce
I keep seeing the opinion that MOBAs killed RTS, but that just seems to be part of the MOBA hate meme. What killed RTS are RTT, Company of Heroes and Dawn of War 2 being the games that drove the last nail in the coffin. With a push for realism in games macro was sacrificed as an unneeded abstraction and the ADHD mountain dew crowd just wants to drop some units on the map for them "epic plays" instead of bothering with actual strategy and "too many clicks!!1".
MOBAs always attracted a different type of player, they're closer to competitive shooters than anything.
>>316580958
>The entire idea of people figuring optimal ways to play is a detriment to the genre
Gee I guess every game is shit then.
>>316580958
something has to be an optimal choice anon
>Where is the strategy
build order IS a pinnacle of strategy, no one said strategy has to be fun
They lack the ability to create formations for your units like Cossacks did.
It felt so great to select formations and send your units in those pre-set formations to the battlefield.
>Set line formation for canons, pikemen and musket
>set square formation for mortars
>use canons to deal with attackers that are comming in
>put pikemen in front when they are close
>put musket user behind them
>set pikemen on defend
>rush in with your horsemen from the sides
>watch the massacre unfold
>watch every you have get killed because theenemy had the highest level ships that have ridiculous range
>>316573403
LET LOOSE THE JOOSE
I want an RTS where you can fight, but it's not the main focus. I much prefer working on the city and doing technology-stuff.
Any suggestions ?
>>316572896
This desu.
>>316580958
Pre-planned openers are unavoidable in games with consistent opening states, theres nothing you can do about it except counter it with strategic thinking
>>316581105
>Yeah but if the take 10 minutes to reach the enemy base you got plents of time to prepare against them
Still a rush.
>but can still be beaten by the appropriate counterforce
Anything less but automatically spawning that counterforce and we'll still have threads about "waah rams op where's my strategy and epic armies clashing"
>>316581261
Sounds like you should play a city builder like Cesar.
>>316581278
Random elements can stop cookie-cutter skillbuilds from being viable
>>316581132
>instead of bothering with actual strategy
Oh, you mean...
>>316581149
>build order IS a pinnacle of strategy, no one said strategy has to be fun
...this?
I mean, all the power to you but the strategy was never there in the first pace past the first week when the players are still figuring things out.
>>316581261
It's called 4X genre.
>>316572772
Not good for casuals
>>316572772
>What's the fundamental flaw of RTS games?
1. Hard to balance or boring. The designer basically chooses one of those at the start.
2. Easy to solve. The playerbase will have the best way to play figured out quickly, and people who dont use it will be crushed.
3. If you arent very good, its hard to get better. In other games you can enter a multiplayer match, be bad, and still get SOMETHING done. RTS have the DOTA2/LoL problem of bad players being unable to play until they get good.
4. It doesnt work well on consoles, or with a controller, or with a touch screen. This is a big deal nowadays.
5. Improving visual fidelity isnt that big of a selling point, at a time when visuals are what ships games often.
6. Its hard to have persistent element between games, and thats a selling point right now. AoE 3 tried, and everyone hated it.
7. On a high level play, it can devolve into twitchy action combat, and that puts off 99% of players.
8. Most games play out the same way. In fact if you are playing differently, you probably are playing wrong.
9. The genre is dominated by one powerful game, SC2, and everything is compared to it and dismissed.
10. RTS AI is notoriously hard to do right, and thus often its either bad, or cheats, or both.
I think this list is about right. Also I'd list AoE, Cossacks, Red Alert and Starcraft among my favorite games/series. I like RTS, despite all of the "flaws" I listed.
>>316581360
Yeah because bullshit random elements are fun right?
>>316572901
>autists are born multitaskers
/v/ always knows the meaning of words :^)
>>316580125
it is inefficient tho. farmers not directly adjacent to the mill would have to walk more for nothing
>>316581457
But they don't have to be bullshit, just elements that affect both players equally and force them to change their strategy
>>316581456
>2. Easy to solve. The playerbase will have the best way to play figured out quickly, and people who dont use it will be crushed.
Objectively false.
The genre doesn't fit the casual market so it will always be a niche. It takes long to play most matches, there is no one to blame but yourself if you lose, and you will not advance until you take the time to recognize what you did wrong.
The RTS genre is built on the player feeling good after improving, but most players don't do that. See the most recent starcraft 2 expansion, even the singleplayer is difficult enough on brutal difficulty where I need to reload and refine my strategy and reload several times until I get it. This is essentially what it's like when laddering, but most people don't see it that way for some reason.
>>316581457
That's why you have the bullshit random elements be consistent across both sides. Forces them both to adapt, but gives no one an unfair advantage.
>>316581563
Are you saying that the cookie cutter build/tech orders arent discovered quickly, or that people who dont use them are competitive?
>>316581360
>RNG
curing cancer with ebola infested aids i see
besides, it'll just change into "case A do X, case B do Y, case C do Z..."
>>316581361
Just because it's not your special snowflake original donut steel never known before idea doesn't make it not strategy.
Besides, it's not like you people are original, you somehow always converge on the idea of making epic bases for hours and clashing population cap armies against eachother for another 3 hours.
Can someone tell me how to start out in AoE2HD? I used to be a little better than average in AoE3 but in AoE2 you only start with 3 villagers and it throws me off so badly for some reason. For sure you need to build at least one house right away because you hit 5/5 very quickly, so I have one villager building a house and the two others gathering. Should I be prioritizing sheep first? How many villagers should I have before I leave the Dark Age?
>>316581360
Yeah but they can also make the game bullshit
Like if your starting resource patch is hidden somewhere unexpected youll just get a dumb disadvantage
Random maps are the future though, with a random selection of randomly generated obstacles like cliffs or rivers or other noteable positions scattered about
>>316581456
>SC2
>dominating anything
LMAO
>>316573364
I completely agree. I used to play a fair amount of AoE2 online and always felt like trash, even when I won games. ASSFAGGOTS give the same feeling of highly competitive strategy without sweating like a pig because my economy management is slightly off optimal.
>>316581613
protip, they can be countered too
>>316581563
>Objectively false.
You're just a shitter if you don't know this.
The optimal strategy is found very quickly and upsets happen relatively rarely.
Once an upset happens, the meta adjusts in a matter of a few deys and it's back to months or years of the same thing over and over.
Even Brood War had this as the viability of Z in TvZ wasn't proven until some 2007 but once it was, the current state got achieved in less than a month and that's the game everyone's been playing since then.
>>316573146
but that's not true, its having the apm to execute and react based on "intelligence" (game-knowledge). Higher apm just delays the time it takes to react
>>316581724
If they can be countered, and the counter is good, then the counter will just be the next cookie cutter build.
>>316581619
>Besides, it's not like you people are original, you somehow always converge on the idea of making epic bases for hours and clashing population cap armies against eachother for another 3 hours.
You're assuming bullshit here, anon.
I do know how to play RTS games, been doing so since I first got online and got taught how to find the build orders and replays for any game.
But I still recognize it as bullshit that most people dislike.
I always wanted something like anno 1440, but with a bit more combat.
>>316581371
I've only played like that enchantress shit, civ and galactic civs.
Any good ones?
>>316581349
Is cesar good?
>>316581681
>getting sweaty from pushing buttons at a somewhat rapid pace
LM@O
>>316581641
Sure, finding the balance is hard. It could be map-wide effects that stop a perfect BO from working out. Hell, it could be random fluctuations in unit- or building prices. Suddenly you need to assign more workers to that resource instead of that, or decide to go for another build entirely.
>>316581657
The only RTS right now with a player base, to be fair.
>>316574020
Well, you would know about those groups better than the rest of us, being a member of both.
>>316581629
Here's how you get started on AOE2HD
1) Uninstall that laggy piece of shit
2) Install classic AoE 2 + userpatch
3) You need that house built before the new villager is trained. For this i think you need to send 2 to build a house while the other gathers sheep. Mayans and Chinese are the exception to this due to their bonuses
>>316581629
>Have ~28 vils when going to feudal
>Build 2 houses right from the start, get loom if pop blocked
>Try to find all of your boars and use them.
>Keep creating vils, DO NOT UNDERMINE THIS, DO NOT LEAVE YOUR TC IDLE, EVER until you hit around 100-120 vils
You should be set with these.
>>316581856
>You're assuming bullshit here, anon.
I guess I just dreamed up the rest of this thread, right?
>>316581841
and the counter to that strategy, and counter to the counter, and another counter
that's how meta works, anon
>>316576423
>mouse mapped to analogue stick
JUST
>>316581074
>implying the "nigger speak" posters aren't from /tv/
I'm pretty sure that whole "hol up" pasta originated from there.
>>316581935
>120 vils
>tfw friends always want to play with 200 pop cap
>>316582275
>play with 500 cap
>get 400 villagers
>industrialize the whole map
>>316581862
P-pls no bully
>>316581921
Fuck off geek
>>316572772
Very high skill floor.
No, really, RTS games don't really become fun until you're decent at them, which can take months.
>>316581902
>what is coh2
>>316581629
21-23 villager start before you hit Feudal, build houses when your pop cap is two spots away from capping out.
>http://www.cysion.be/aocbox/?p=1318
The guy who wrote these also worked on The Forgotten and African Kingdoms
>>316581921
>he can't play the new expansion
laughingman-at-arms.jpg
>>316572772
They require thinking and good memory skills. Most people can't handle that.
>>316582557
>3500 players per day
Dead.
>>316582557
m8, thats like saying dominions 4 has a playerbase. SC2 is a giant compared to coh2.
>>316581613
I'm saying that there are no cookie cutter builds.
The notion that there are superior build orders that you can blindly follow like a shopping list every game is ridiculous and false.
Build orders are merely a logical progression to achieve a goal with maximum efficacy.
If you want to get an army fast you study BO for that, same for economy or security.
You choose your BO basing on how you want to play a game, if you play every game the same way, people will eventually pick up and will dismantle your build order with another one that specifically target your weaknesses.
There is no perfect, cookie-cutter build order, high level players know a plethora of bos and also know that they are not a blind list that you must follow independently of what's happening, you must scout always and adapt according to what you see because if the game is not complete shit you always have exploitable weak points.
Games that get decided because someone blindly picked a "superior" BO are called BO wins and are very rare, usually stuff like 6pool vs 14cc.
the "strategy" part almost always translates to APM/Micro
>>316579483
>the ebin a mover
That made me laugh way more than i should have
>>316582706
I played 2v2, and we always did the same thing - early economy for my mate, early rush for me. When I am done rushing, I do economy, while my mate builds a force. Then we push together with the upgrades completed.
And whenever we played against competent opponents, they did the same thing.
>>316582717
The strategy part almost always translates to build and gameplan, anon.
Micro is tactics, and APM simply determines how quickly you can execute your gameplan, and how well you can multitask.
People are so obsessed with APM, I don't get why. Pic related, this guy dominated Korean competitive StarCraft for so long that he was declared Bonjwa (a player so dominant that nobody can compare, anywhere, for so long that he completely breaks the game and changes his race forever). He had roughly 200 APM.
His basic Zerg theory STILL applies, in sc2, a different game.
>>316582986
I could get really rude with your post right now, but I'll merely say that your personal experiences are not indicative of anything but that.
What would be the equivalent of FPS's iron sights (and implied slowing down during aiming that way) for the RTS genre?
>>316583202
I could and will tell you that if you think RTS dont get solved and everybody doesnt play the very few optimal ways, you are a noobie playing with noobies.
>>316583248
Doesn't iron sights essentially exist to faciliate aiming on controllers, since it lets you be more precise with the shitty-ass analog sticks?
I don't think there's an equivalent for rts, since the genre would have to first become really popular on consoles, and then those consolized rts would have to be ported to PC again, and I don't think that has happened
>RTS thread
since my greenman credit was expiring i bought supreme commander gold on impulse
anything i should know?, im kinda new to RTS
>>316583302
Yeah mate fuck off.
>>316583401
I always thought it was supposed to immitate actual aiming in games that are striving to be ''authentic''
Oldest game I played that had ADS was the first OP flashpoint, that one certainly tried to be realistic, doesn't mean it actually succeeded, not in all departments anyway
>>316573520
>>316573839
Not fixable. Same problem as Red Alert 2.
Game uses a star-model diagram for netplay.
What this means is that they all keep the state of the game synced, so that if the host dies, the game can still continue.
At least, by design anyway. Doesn't always work.
>>316583707
>What this means is that they all keep the state of the game synced, so that if the host dies, the game can still continue.
Yeah this has basically never worked for our group of friends, if the game died you'd be able to resume in theory, but in practice it'd just crash and you could trash the savefile
>>316582650
But i can play, that's why i now hd is a laggy piece of shit
The games are too complex for your average casual to understand
See: This entire thread
Too many people complaining about mechanics that just want to play fucking sim city for some reason
>>316577609
Fucking tell me about it. I got trapped in my base by two IG and couldn't get my relic. I held off for like 2 hours before I finally was able to teleport my Lord out and backdoor their bases with Flayed Ones.
>>316572772
Micromanagement
Max zoom level for no reason
Drawing boxes
APM
Devs all still making games like it's the 90s.
Build orders
>>316584115
the funniest thing is when these fucks go play turn based games where speed is no longer a factor and they get completely rekt because they just do stupid shit
biggest example: dominioons 4
>>316572772
You can't infiltrate the enemy and attack from the inside
>>316583974
how is it laggy retard?
maybe you should stop playing games on your shitty toaster
>>316573823
>that thread
Fucking scorpions
>>316582702
Yes, its niche, and not well known.
but it is certainly not dead.
>>316582698
yeah, and how many gook click 2 players actually play melee?
>>316579483
>also no one would want to be the economy guy
Bitch nigger, imma build you a base; bitches love bases.
>>316584364
The worst ones are the one who complain about build orders
By that logic I guess Chess isn't a strategy game either. Some opening moves are clearly better than others, guess there's no strategy here, nope, none whatsoever
>>316583816
Pretty much, I've never had any luck with it either.
It was a nice concept, but I think most people don't have much fucks to give if the game host dies...they'll just restart a match.
>>316584407
maybe you should stop playing shitty crashgrab "hd" remakes
1. There are a lot of fine RTS's outside StarCraft, Warcraft and CoH/DoW that are just simply forgotten and unpopular. SC isn't the best or the most "pure" RTS so stop picking it as a example.
2. Not popular are they now just because they are hard and to constantly loose after 30 min putting effort in a kind of intellectual game is simply shameful. That's why CS is more popular than Quake and why MOBAs have taken their place.
3. Th e rushing problem is only a problem for inexperienced, it is a natural thing and can't be artificially driven away. As the game has expansion and evolution elements there will exist rush tactics. It's not the fault of the genre its only a fault of balance, made by developers.
>>316572772
The name of the genre doesn't match what it is.
RTS the genre is about designing an optimal build order around a focused strategy, and doing it as quickly as possible.
But that's not really "real time strategy." In a strategic game, like a war game, you can't create new units in brief real time.
Games like the Total War games solved much of that dissonance, which is why they flourished and traditional RTS games died in the mid 2000s. They utilized turn based processes to generate units, and then the real time combat elements involved a fixed number of available troops based on the state of your operational strategy.
RTS games in their final form are closer related to "diner dash" style time management sims than they are to war games.
too much to learn
>>316584914
I think you're confusing strategy and tactics, anon.
Having a gameplan and a build in mind is exactly what strategy is.
>>316584407
No you are right, HD is perfect. That must be the reason why pros refuse to play it and everyone except steamkiddies who probably are playing aoe2 for the first time stick to classic+userpatch on Voobly
>>316573850
Have you ever played Company of Heroes, cause these problems are "fixed" there.
>>316584717
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>316584914
And within minutes another one of these retards show up
You literally don't understand what strategy is
How the fuck can you seriously claim that going into the game with a predetermined plan of action is not strategy
What the fuck do you think strategy is?
Do you think professional chess players just sit down at the board and wing it for the first few moves?
>>316584914
>Games like the Total War games solved much of that dissonance, which is why they flourished and traditional RTS games died in the mid 2000s
kek
>>316572772
I'm not good at them
>>316585047
Well yes, there's confusion in my post there. I meant more in the gaming understanding of military strategy at the time which meant big games like Operational Art of War and such.
By definition, almost all games have strategy.
The general point I was making is that RTS games tried to identify themselves as Big Strategy war games, but they're not. They're mostly time management sims.
That's not to say that's a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with time management games if that's a genre you find fulfilling. But for those of us who played in the early golden age of RTS games, they sold them as war games, but that's not really what they were.
Whenever I play a RTS I always try and make it realistically and try to have a good fair battle. But obviously people are faggots and will rush to find the cheap exploit in any game genre.
They're too hard to get into.
People try them, they suck at them because everyone sucks at rts at first because of how advanced the genre is.
Then they refuse to accept that they're crap and instead blame it on "muh apm" or something similar.
>>316585313
Anon, the RTS genre have not pretended to be big war sims since the late 90s/early 00s.
They're exactly what the lid says now, real time games with an emphasis on strategy.
>>316585291
What are you kekking at? Tactical games thrived, RTS that wasn't blizzard died.
>>316585219
You're right, I misspoke.
My intended meaning was "Strategy" as a genre definer from a war game perspective, which is how RTS games were marketed in the early days.. I was more describing cultural definitions than general strategy.
Obviously almost all games have strategy.
>>316572772
Mass unit management and AI, basically way too much micromanagement.
Please have the bases be self-sustainable and self-repairable once you get to a certain point.
the flaw is not enough development and interest balance.
not enough people get interested, development is slow, sales are low, updates die out, the player base dies out.
how many legendary RTS can you name that continue to be expanded upon? when C&C died, i think RTS died for me. SupCom doesn't scratch the itch because it is too soulless, nothing has character. Ashes of the Singularity = Supcom, Sins of a Solar Empire = every space RTS, not bad, but not expanded upon.
where is the golden age of RTS? RTS is what got me here in the first place god damnit, it's why these threads hit 300 replies everytime.
nigger asses.i'm just injected 4 marijuana's
>>316585442
>real time games with an emphasis on strategy.
Except the emphasis is on plate-balancing rather than strategy.
>>316572901
start pushing your limits you little fucker.
also, watch how the good players play and start mimicking them, you will get good very fast this way
>>316585442
>Anon, the RTS genre have not pretended to be big war sims since the late 90s/early 00s.
OP literally posted a screenshot of AoE which game out in 1997.
Why am I supposed to infer he's not talking about that era?
>>316585591
If you're trying to punch above your weight, yes.
That's another problem with RTS, people look at the pro players, the people who play the game for 8-12 hours a day or more, and try to emulate them.
You failing to micro a drop while managing 4 bases, taking care of a harass run and fighting in the middle of a map doesn't mean the game is shit, it means you're trying to play bach when you're at the skill level of twinkle twinkle little star.
>>316585650
>watch how the good players play and start mimicking them
By watching 30 single-frame images of multiple places in the battlefield every second?
>>316573630
>focusing primarily winning instead of having fun
Every LAN party has that one retard.
>>316585684
Because he asked what the fundamental flaw of RTS games is, implying current time.
Your point wasn't even a flaw at the time because it was the closest we had to war sims back then.
>>316585818
No matter what level you're at you will be expected to micromanage multiple things though an interface not designed for that. APM and micromanagement are functions of bad game design.
>>316585835
If you want to get good at say AoE2, you can first read a bunch of guides telling you the basics and general git gud strategies like always building villagers, and then watch commentated pro games that show you macro strategies and micro tactics as well as meta stuff
>>316586186
>APM and micromanagement are functions of bad game design.
>pressing buttons and controlling units are functions of bad game design.
>>316572772
Are there any RTS where you can largely just ignore military? Often I feel like just having fun developing my city and shit but then I'm forced into military by the shitty COM
>>316584914
I always thought that the name "real time strategy" was just a play on its literal sense of the phrase.
As in, rather than it being a turn based game of chess at the park where one day you might walk by with your dog, make one move, and then walk off and then another day your opponent is in the park doing the next move...
You're all playing at the same time, in real-time.
I think the name was coined in a literal sense of how you physically attend to the game, not on a technical sense of how the strategy is executed.
>>316586216
AFPS isn't that deep. Learn how to add 25, camp the red, press S and fire rockets at floor when you're in trouble, well done you're now the Quake god. Good players have reached the skill cap of movement and aim anyway so you rarely see a great play.
>>316586415
A strategist in a war shouldn't need to tell each unit individually what to do, nor should he have to balance plates but instead think of the bigger picture. RTS games bog you down with gruntwork to disguise how stale the gameplay is.
>>316586415
He is not exactly wrongnot 100% right eitherLook at Starcraft and BW, half the reason for the APM and micro is because the pathfinding is dogshit.
>>316586186
You'll have to do several things in very quick succession, yes, but it isn't as much of a problem if you play at your level rather than trying to be Flash.
APM is overrated and overstated, it's not really a problem. You probably type at 60wpm, likely more, your hands are capable of moving at the speed of progamers, what is lacking is your understanding of the game, your experience and your ability to plan ahead. As that improves, so does the APM.
Your frustration stems from trying to do more than someone of your level should be doing, stop that, and the frustration will disappear. You don't need to be able to handle four battles at once while expanding and teching while in bronze league. Depending on your playstyle, you may never have to. Look at sAviOr from SC: Brood War.
Amassing is always a good idea.
That's why there are arbitrary population caps. If there weren't, people just would amass more and more.
The only drawback it has is that you have temporally hindered your technology.
But in my opinion it's not enough.
Maybe an upkeep, like in Dungeon Keeper?
>>316586424
AoE 2 HD with unit limit capped out.
Most people will voluntarily spend ages building their base, just because.
>>316586415
Pressing too many buttons is a sign of bad game design.
It is equivalent to an FPS where all the AI players aim and hit the head the moment they notice you.
Every FPS game has had measures that threw their aim off so as to make the games playable.
>>316586630
Whether you have four battles at once should be a strategic decision, not dependent on how good you are with the keys. RTS half the time makes you feel like the UI is the real opponent.
>>316586623
BW found an interesting balance in that, though. Macro and micro became equally important because of it, so two main archetypes of players emerged, those who focus on having a bigger army than their opponent, and those who focus on having a more efficient army than their opponent. Without the need to micro units to make them great, everyone would be a macro player like in sc2.
>>316586619
No, a strategist in a war is expected to give orders in real time in different fronts.
>>316586623
That's not game design tho, technical limitations.
>>316586693
Not really, you press the buttons you need to press to do whatever you want.
Automation is just cancer that shouldn't happen.
>>316586641
>Maybe an upkeep, like in Dungeon Keeper?
Warcraft 3 had that and it served no real purpose.
The genre and the people who play it by and large refuse any QoL improvements on this basis that it makes it more casual.
These threads are always a brilliant indication of that point.
>>316586630
That's not what the shitter argument against APM is about
He's complaining that he has to click too fast in order to become good at the game
He would rather play a strategy game where he only needs to click every few seconds and can't seem to wrap his head around why that would be a shit game
>>316572772
People like you play them.
>>316586763
>That's not game design tho, technical limitations.
It's totally game design, Total War doesn't require you to do ebin clickety-click to get off more shots while moving.
>>316586652
What does unit limit being capped out essentially mean? 0 military units? So high cap the AI never bothers to attack? Or what?
>>316586763
>No, a strategist in a war is expected to give orders in real time in different fronts
Yes, he gives an order, he doesn't follow them around making sure they blink the correct number of times a minute.
>>316586829
No, pathfinding AI being awful isn't game design.
They didn't design it in BW to be intentionally shitty, there's even a blog by the lead designer talking about how most problems arised because they traslated a top-down 2D engine into an isometric view and they didn't have enough time to make it good.
>>316586693
It is equivalent to an FPS where movement requires a complex and precise pattern rather than just pressing forward.
It is equivalent to a fighting game where doing an uppercut requires a complex and precise pattern rather than just pressing a button.
These are defended by competitive players. Same for RTS controls.
You could argue that it doesn't make sense in RTS because it has nothing to do with strategy, but you have to realize the name of the genre is irrelevant, and most competitive players would rather have those paradigms rather than an intuitive one, as it adds another layer of depth to the game, even if unrelated to the core challenge.
Basically more = better.
>>316586781
Same with AFPS players who shit a brick when a game comes out and isn't a Quake/UT clone. And when it is they don't play it anyway because it's a clone. And they don't play Quake/UT either, they just talk about how everyone is casual because they don't play them.
>>316586763
>Automation is just cancer that shouldn't happen.
I'm not saying the game should literally play itself bar simple commands the likes of "Now build up," "Now attack!" which is roughly the RTS equivalent of Rising Thunder's approach.
However, if I don't explicitly communicate certain facts to people, I better make them as painless as possible.
Viz. economy in up-front RTS games.
People like to amass stuff by nature, the game never tells you not using every penny at your disposal is wrong and it absolutely is.
So instead of making them suffer not knowing why, use an intelligent queue system that only takes the cash once the new unit starts getting built (instead of taking all the cash the moment you add the unit to the queue, thus wasting those resources).
>>316586989
>It is equivalent to an FPS where movement requires a complex and precise pattern rather than just pressing forward.
That's only the case in Quake which is dead because no-one likes playing QWOP in their FPS.
The only reason Starcraft survives is because the RTS hasn't had equivalents to CS/Halo which take out all the dumb shit from a genre so non-autists want to play it.
>>316587025
rip in peace shootmania
you were a good game
>>316587074
What you're asking for is automation though
>>316586830
Just a fuck-load of units really.
But yes, AI waits too long to attack, usually once all the human players have destroyed each other a lot.
Last time I played against 4 others with a unity cap of 500, the AI basically sat around with boats and nothing else.
>>316586738
If you feel the UI is the real opponent, you are punching above your weight. It's this simple.
Four fronts will always be harder to manage than one front, in every game. Even in turn-based war simulators like Gary Grigsby games it's harder because you have to properly balance your forces. It can never be an effortless choice. It's amplified in real time games because well, they're real time.
Instead recognize that you're not good enough to handle four battles at once without just attack moving your army, and set it as a goal. Work your way up, start with one battle and one drop.
>>316586989
>Basically more = better.
That's absolutely not the case.
Ever since the dawn of mankind, competitive players shat upon anything even a slightly bit complicated.
Games that add additional layers are simply not kosher in their minds.
The reason is simple, once there's too many variables to keep track of, you can't easily solve the game and thus can't perfect the solution, which is what they actually want to do.
>>316586947
I still don't see how having to control your units is bad game design, instead of game design you don't like.
>>316587263
No, the UI is the opponent because the UI gets in the way of decision making.
The difficulty in managing four fronts should be in the decision making, not the UI.
>>316572772
ressource gathering and base building, static maps and fog of war
>>316586764
I was thinking more of a periodic pay. Actually DK also had individual unit experience levels that would passively increase their performance but also increase their upkeep. It could be interesting.
Then again maybe it doesn't fit into traditional RTS, I don't know.
I think big armies should be a proper way to go but also have bigger drawbacks, I'm not sure how.
>>316587232
An automation of a repetitive task that has no real impact upon the game.
You don't need to turn the safeguard off before shooting in an FPS, neither do you have a separate button to remove the spent magazine before adding the new one... you just reload.
>>316572772
RTSs are very complex games, to the point where the people who designed them are probably not going to be very good at them compared to an average player. At the same time, all the cheap, obvious improvements have already been done. So in order to make a groundbreaking new RTS you have to make risky changes in a very complex environment, and you have to make use of outside expertise or you'll end up with some barely functioning shit like SoaSE. the trouble is, the genre has been stagnant and outright dead for so long that the only significant demographic remaining in it are bitter ultra-veterans who think you are a blind granny if you can't do two actions per second while simultaneously scouting, expanding, skirmishing and building up, so any feedback from them is going to be lousy with opinions that will repulse casuals and discourage new players.
Basically, as it stands now, you need to be a genius to make a good new RTS, and the genre is not worth the effort for anyone who isn't a rabid fan or resigned to eternal compstomping offline.
>>316586764
Of course it served purpose, it forced you to move with your army because you'd lose resources if you had too high upkeep.
>>316587375
How do you propose to change the interface to allow this without making the game play itself
You seem to not understand that the player's attention is a finite resource, and making moves with the intent of disrupting and exploiting your opponent's attention is a fundamental tenet of RTS strategy
You're clearly just a newbie, you tunnel too much on the surface of the game and don't understand what makes a good player in the first place
>>316587547
It never really factored into anything.
The armies across the board were equal to one another and once a wipe happened, the higher upkeep on the winner's side hasn't saved a single ass.
Most people never even realized it was a thing, much less remember it or god forbid actually factored it into their tactics.
>>316587593
>How do you propose to change the interface to allow this without making the game play itself
He'll probably say something like increasing the distance you see the map, without knowing that there was a BW mod for that, and it was uneffective because you couldn't effectively micro units that were barely 2 pixels wide.
>>316587232
And? SupCom has a shitload of automation, it actually encourages you to automate things like production, non-combat transport and aerial surveillance, but you'll still die like like a bitch if you are too passive or inattentive.
>>316587375
It gets in the way of decision making because you're punching above your weight.
The game is real time, opening up more areas where you have to make hard decisions will increase the amount of shit you have to do in the allocated time, that will happen with every real time game. Once you're experienced enough with the game to actually be able to make those decisions fast enough, you will be able to handle four fronts, and the difficulty will be decisionmaking. It's not about your hands, it's about your experience. You're simply trying to achieve something you're not experienced enough to do yet.
The problem with RTS for you is not the UI, it's the fact that it's a REAL TIME strategy game.
>>316587454
Again you really don't understand why the repetitive task is part of the game
First off there are things you can do to distract your opponent and throw him off of completing his tasks on time
The games are designed in such a way to reward players for doing things on schedule, and sometimes you sacrifice getting things done on time in order to do damage to your opponent and force reactions out of him
>>316587367
Because it's a strategy game not a tactical game.
>>316587827
Why are you bringing up a shit game that never really got off the ground
>>316588020
Every game that has you controlling units has tactics in it.
>>316587547
Not really. If you worked two mines at that point it didn't matter, if you worked only one mine or had no upkeep you were about to lose.
>>316587887
>Again you really don't understand why the repetitive task is part of the game
It's a part of some games, not all of them.
Games with continuous economy model or those lacking in builder units never had it in the first place and they still work and are great fun in multiplayer.
C&C 3 or CoH... both great and fun games that people loved.
RTS is a massive genre and there isn't a single correct way of doing things.
But you can remove some of the complexity to give a fighting chance to newcomers.
Or at least give them a proper tutorial worth shit 'ala Skullgirls that forces them to not drop a single queue or get supply blocked while engaging in battle.
You can't just expect the people to come in and know how to play a game that is built around non-intuitive principles.
remake HD WC3 with arcon mode.
there everyone happy including me
>>316588495
SC2 does that. It's surprising that more games don't.
>>316588171
Because it's the only good RTS ever made, other than TA and a tiny number of Westwood games.
>>316587741
Micro shouldn't be a thing. A strategist gives orders and has to hope that they're carried out well.
>>316588601
How do you propose an RTS with no tactical factor what so ever would work?
Even turn-based strategy games feature tactics.
>>316588565
>SC2 does that.
It surely does not.
I haven't heard a single person recommend the game to people saying "Whatever you do, play the tutorial first, it's necessary and amazing!" unlike with Skullgirls, which gets recognized for it across the whole fighting game community.
>>316588601
But micro is fun.
What do you have against fun things?
>>316588720
You think about strategy. You give orders to units and they carry them out. You don't control them other than to give them new orders. Like a general rather than a field officer.
>>316581857
>I've only played like that enchantress shit, civ and galactic civs.
>Any good ones?
I'd suggest Sword of the Stars and Aurora.
The microing has always bothered me in strategy games, and is one of the reasons I stopped playing them.
I mean shit like having a siege unit shoot slow splashing projectiles are your soldiers and them just standing still waiting to be hit, so you have to manually tell each one to spread.
I understand people liking it, and it can certainly be challenging if there are dozens of things going on at the same time, but it is not the kind of stuff you should be focusing on a strategy game imo.
>>316588583
Oh man
The second anyone brings up TA it's time to ignore everything they have to say
TA players were just like lolbabbies back in the day. They try to play an actual game, get their ass beat, then go crying back to their own shit game
Everyone who can play an RTS worth a damn got the fuck out of that game and moved on to either BW or AOK
C&C games had no balance whatsoever and came down to "mass one tank and a click"
You are beyond clueless and yet you keep going on and on and on as if you know how to play the genre
>>316588725
It actually does. The campaign is one form of tutorial, easing you into the game very slowly, starting you on 1base and telling you how to make an SCV, but they've also implemented an actual tutorial.
It locks you out of the vast majority of units your race has access to, starts the game on slow speed and guides you every step of the way while explaining the basic mechanics. Then it gradually speeds up and gets more complex as you advance.
>>316588859
Being a general is not about fighting, anon.
Strategy is about charts.
Eve Online gets enough flak and GSGs are already seen as complicated.
A game about being a general is not a game... no one wants to be a general of an army.
They just want to play with their toy tanks and have them bow shit up.
Alternatively, they want to build sand castles, or spin as many plates as they can manage.
But absolutely no one wants to do strategy because it's boring.
>>316588970
Care to back those claims up?
>>316589156
What use is a tutorial if no one plays it?
I had no fucking idea there even is one and I've been playing the game since summer 2010.
>>316589231
Correction, you don't want to.
RTS is simply too fast for you due to the real time factor, you're not the target audience.
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