Ye Olde Threade: >>2025005
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Look at that majesty. Look at it, I say!
Homura did nothing wrong.
I want to believe these two will be going at it like rabbits in the next work.
A ballet is fine too.
Fargo finally finished. I'm months behind, but apparently it got some kind of happy ending?
>>2037088
I want to believe that Sayaka willget hit by a train.
Silver is the artist we deserve.
>>2037100
Maybe you shouldn't talk about it, friend.
>>2037103
And also the one we need right now.
>>2037106
>>2037109
>>2037110
Homu Homu? More likeHomo Homo.
Wraith Arc 6 translation when?
>>2037095
I think we can be friends, nee-san.
>>2037146
There's no way Homu wouldn't be the one tied up if they wanted to do BDSM stuff.
>>2037144
But no one said the Silver art was crack?
>>2037151
I think it works nicely both ways.
>>2037110
I was hoping that Homura will kiss Nagisa...
>>2037167
Would have been a funny alternative to breaking the cup at the end of rebellion.
Sitting at the table diddling Nagisa when Mami walked by.
I need subby homucifer.
>>2037078
>shipping
Never really liked using this word. Too tumblr, prefer pairing.
Post yukata.
Other kinds of kimono are okay too.
>>2037179
It's a semi-healthy way for Homu to work out her self-loathing issues and to learn giving someone else control can be fun.
>>2037211
Hell even when Homura gets over her self loathing, she's still probably going to be Madoka's bitch.
>>2037216
As she should be. Pussy whipped Homura is the best.
>>2037217
Pretty much.
>Homura subbing
You guys officially have shitty opinions
>>2037219
You seriously think a person like Homura would be dominating Madoka, or even want to? Unless your trying to say that neither of them dominate and it's a completely equal sexual relationship, which is a better choice.
>>2037219
Guess this is more your cup of tea then.
>>2037222
More like this desu
>>2037219
Homura doesn't have a dominant or assertive bone in her body, and her track record of trying is utterly abysmal. Even the one time she really did assert herself and take charge is something she utterly hates herself for.
I'm glad that most of /u/ agrees that Homura is as subby as it gets. Top Homura can be fun, but it's hard to take seriously. The girl's whipped and hates herself. She's destined to be a masochist.
>>2037179
I'm a firm supporter of Akuma in the streets, Moemura in the sheets, but I'm pretty sure Madoka enjoys trading off from time to time. You can't tell me Madoka doesn't enjoy what's going on in >>2037223
>>2037224
While Homu is an insecure and hurt child on the inside, we can't pretend she doesn't have the potential to dominate. Homura subs for Madoka and Madoka only.
>>2037182
Shipping (the term) has been about waaay before Tumblr. I first heard the word in 2006-2007 on some old forums I used to plod around on.
>>2037243
>Madoka doesn't enjoy what's going on
You don't date many women aren't you?
>>2037182
And thus, tumblr ceases meaning anything at all.
>>2037285
It comes from the mid-90s X-Files fandom. Originally, a shipper was someone who wanted a romance between Mulder and Scully. It was only later applied to fans of other pairings.
>>2037243
>Moemura in the sheets
I'm fine with that as long as it doesn't involve her actually wearing glasses and putting her hair into braids again. That getup served its purpose fine in the show, showing how meek she used to be before she set out on her path, but I just can't see Madoka asking her to look like that again because it somehow excites her.
>>2037240
Where is this from onee-chan? Goggles didn't turn up anything.
>>2037305
http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=55720039
>>2037290
>You can't tell me
Though awkwardly worded, anon meant Madoka was enjoying it.
>>2037310
It's a pretty frequently used phrase.
>>2037311
I was pointing out that they'd cut off the beginning of the sentence.
>You can't tell me Madoka doesn't enjoy what's going on in >>2037223
is a bit awkwardly worded to me. I would have said "You can't tell me Madoka isn't enjoying what's going on in >>2037223"
Of course,
>You don't date many women aren't you?
also sounds ESL as fuck.Or maybe that was the point and I missed it.
>>2037285
>>2037293
I'm aware of that, I didn't imply it originated from tumblr; I was actually implying it sounds too tumblr.
Plus there are people who mistakenly use the term for canon couples.
The term implies shipping individuals to canon. Once canon, the term is not of use any longer.
Prefer "pairing", that's that.
>>2037446
I don't see why it can't be used for canon couples. You're expressing a specific interest in the portrayal of characters' relationship rather than in general interest in the work in which their relationship is featured.
"I like that pairing" isn't the same to me as "I ship x and y".
>>2037302
>I just can't see Madoka asking her to look like that again because it somehow excites her.
Madoka's glasses fetish is semi-canon. There are several one-shots and a 2012 expo that made reference to it. She's braiding her hair in Rebellion. Moemura is specifically called Madoka's favorite Homura. She'd definitely want those braids and glasses on.
>>2037088
I expect a confession.
>>2037095
Rude.
>>2037182
"I ship these two characters together" is easier to say than "I pair up these two characters together" and the term is way, way older than dumblr. It also goes well with the term "canon"
>>2037446
And I'm implying you're branding things "tumblr" in a completely arbitrary way.
Not either nee-sans but:
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_(fandom)
>A ship that has been confirmed by its series and is true is called a canon ship. Canon means "true to the series". A canon ship might be a romantic couple actively portrayed, or only understood as canon due to the creators of the media confirming it as true.
>Shipping can involve any kind of romantic relationship between any character. A pairing between characters who rarely or never interact with each other, including those from different series, is called a crack pairing. A character paired with an inanimate object is called a cargo ship.
>OTP stands for one true pairing, and generally refers to an individual fan's particularly heartfelt love for a pairing. Other variations occur, such a OT3 which usually applies to poly relationships (especially love triangles in canon).
>Shipping usually refers to romantic relationships. Applied outside if romance, the term is controversial. Some fans apply can also refer to simple friendships; this subset is sometimes known as a "BrOTP" (a portmanteau of the terms bromance and one true pairing). Shipping in fanfiction between a same-sex couple is also known as slash fiction, an older term and concept that dates to the late 1970s.
>In anime/manga communities, shipping is more commonly referred to as pairing(s);[citation needed] in Filipino pop culture, it is frequently called loveteam(s). In East Asian contexts, the practice is also referred to as coupling or CP.
MadoHomu is my one true loveteam.
>>2037446
That's because you want to make it sound that way.
I never heard of shipping not applying to canon pairings.
>>2037577
I have actually come across this argument before, but only ever on 4chan.
>>2037569
>I've been looking at CP all along
FBI have mercy
>>2037626
It is a stupid argument, but I kinda prefer pairing myself, at least for this series. Ignoring official art, the ships are made pretty blatant on who the production team wants to be together episode 8 onward and Rebellion just brushed away most of the ambiguity. Using the term shipping makes it seem like it's in question when really the only question is will MadoHomu and KyouSaya live through the next project to fully canonize their relationships.
tl;dr Autistic nitpicking
>>2037636
It's forbidden love, in more ways than one.
>>2037657
I hesitate to use shipping as a term in Madoka threads because it's often like a red flag to an autistic bull, but I'd say personally that I ship MadoHomu and NagiMami because I'm actively interested in fanworks for both pairings and, honestly, originally became interested in the franchise exclusively because I was told MadoHomu were practically canon. I'm ambivalent about KyouSaya so I don't 'ship' them, but I acknowledge that they're a pairing that's going to happen/is happening.
All Madoka threads are just autistic nitpicking by now, we may as well have fun with it.
>>2037669
>I'd say personally that I ship MadoHomu and NagiMami because I'm actively interested in fanworks for both pairings and, honestly, originally became interested in the franchise exclusively because I was told MadoHomu were practically canon.
I am with agreement there. A friend recommended the series to me a month or so after Rebellion came out not telling me about the yuri undertones. If by some insanity MadoHomu is just platonic love and a romantic friendship, I will be shocked because it's one of the more believable relationships I've seen in animu. I'm glad to see another MamiNagi fan!
>I'm ambivalent about KyouSaya so I don't 'ship' them, but I acknowledge that they're a pairing that's going to happen/is happening.
Same. I'm meh on it mostly because the series makes Sayaka seem like the most awful type of person and that still carried over to Rebellion for me and pairing her with my second fav just adds to that. I really don't expect too much more out of KyouSaya. Maybe a scene or two at most. In the same way MadoHomu in episode 10 stole much of KyouSaya in episode 9's thunder, I feel a sequel will do the same.
>>2037725
I have this weird relationship with Sayaka where when I watch the show/movies I sympathise greatly with her as a character. She's in an impossible situation, just like all of them. But as soon as the tv turns off and I'm online my brain goes WORST GIRL. MUST SHITPOST.
I think it's because I really didn't like her the first time I watched the show and my lizard brain refuses to forget that.
>>2037732
Yeah, I feel this way too. I love her arc and it's not that I get off on mocking the suffering of a middle school girl, but as a member of the "team" she stands out so much because she's the weakest link. I guess it doesn't help that anyone so wet for justice in a seinen work, let alone an Urobuchi work, might as well be yelling "Just fuck my shit up, karma."
>>2037732
I used to feel this way about Sayaka too. But then I gave the TV show and the movies several rewatchs and I realized that she's a massively misunderstood character. Most of the people that hate her do so because they don't try to put themselves in her shoes. They just think she's an annoying girl that always makes the wrong choices and that that's all there is to her. To me, she's the most realistic character of all. If you were to put a young girl her age in her situation, I think that's how 90% of the girls would react after receiving knowledge of the reality of their situation.
I also like how she just doesn't buy into all the bullshit that Homura brings forward. She serves as a nice counter balance to Homura's extreme choices. And I also feel for her; the plot goes out of its way to prove that Homura can never do wrong despite the stark contradictions to that statement, as opposed to Sayaka, whom the writers love to walk all over. You just can't help but keep rooting for this kind of character. She fucks up, and there's always the feeling of anticipation for her to grow as a character from those mistakes. Truly, she's amazing.
I suppose my love for Kyouko and KyouSaya also helped in making me appreciate her more as a character.
>>2037750
See, even in the trailer for the concept movie she's already completely been fucked over. Urobuchi loves to make her suffer. And my desire to keep rooting for her keeps growing stronger.
>>2037776
I think she's a flawed character who was deliberately created that way to help the narrative, and I like that. It's annoying to hear others shit talk about her because I get the feeling that they judge every character based on whether they'd want her as a girlfriend/wife, instead of as characters in a story.
>>2037776
No, see, I get all that when I watch it. And then I see you post and I just want to shitpost you into oblivion. Lizard brain.
And I would hesitate to say that the show implies Homura can do no wrong. What's worse, in the end it doesn't matter what she did anyway, since Madoka literally deus ex machinas them out of it all.
>>2037776
>I also like how she just doesn't buy into all the bullshit that Homura brings forward. She serves as a nice counter balance to Homura's extreme choices.
How so? She does such a bad job counterbalancing Homura because she's almost always wrong, save the last 20 minutes of Rebellion. Even then it was preceded by an hour and forty minute explanation for Homura's mental collapse and more a summation of the current situation. All of dialogue with Homura comes from her not fully grasping the situation despite being told multiple time that things can only get worse.
It's her interaction with Kyouko on the other hand where Sayaka shined. Lewd pink is the only one who is regularly able to call out Urobuchi's embodiment of cynicism without being wrong.
>>2037825
>>2037776
I'd say Homu can't be wrong only because it's easy to be right when you think everything is wrong. I think Homura is right about how hopeless their situation (in series at least), but the plot makes it clear her world view is shaped by nothing ever going right in the first place. One could make a decent argument that Moemura is not really any less cynical than Devil Homura, rather a life time of failure just cemented the position.
>>2037776
Have this
>>2037886
>>2037776
Sayaka is a good character because she means well but is so wrong and pays dearly for it. She isn't really more realistic because an actual 14 year old girl would have run away after episode 3. Rather she plays the typical mahou shoujo role to a tee in a world that utterly rejects that sort of heroism. She is a honto baka fated to die and is largely inconsequential to the universe and yet ironically she is the only character at the end of life that is able to say she is fully satisfied with the outcome of her wish. Nagisa, Mami, Kyouko, Homura, and even Madoka to an extent are not able to say this. She's possibly the only character that gets actual closure in the series. Homura and Kyouko certainly don't. Mami is firmly shipped with lonliness and Madoka is "condemed" to an eternity of fighting witches by herself.
While I expect her to get completey BTFOd by virtue of being Sayaka and fighting with the series deuteragonist, I also expect for her to ultimately be satisfied with whatever the outcome of said conflict is. I personally hope Homura and Sayaka can put their natural animosity aside for Madoka's sake.
>>2037886
>Lucina selfcest
You had better get a Palutena figure if they ever make one
>>2037924
>Sayaka is a good character because she means well but is so wrong and pays dearly for it. She isn't really more realistic because an actual 14 year old girl would have run away after episode 3. Rather she plays the typical mahou shoujo role to a tee in a world that utterly rejects that sort of heroism
She's a tragic character in the classical sense, really - her greatest strength (her heroism, her belief in justice, her selfless wish) resulted in her downfall (that heroism and belief in justice became despair and hopelessness, and the realization that her wish was more selfish than she thought certainly added to things).
One can only hope that her and Homu reach even a grudging acceptance of one another (as they were kind of doing in Homu's Hellscape) but I wouldn't hold my breath; the two are more or less polar opposites - Justice for all vs. a single-minded, single target protection, heroism vs. morally questionable pragmatism and so on.
They're pretty good foils, really.
>>2037776
Just because she's realistic doesn't mean she's likeable.
Poor people acting like a thug is realistic (cf. Kyouko), but that doesn't mean I find them likeable.
>>2037944
>I wouldn't hold my breath; the two are more or less polar opposites - Justice for all vs. a single-minded, single target protection, heroism vs. morally questionable pragmatism and so on.
They have a major difference that makes their conflict uninteresting. Sayaka isn't really committed to her ideals. Homura is.
>>2037950
Sayaka was written to be the slightly unlikable, annoying best friend who is often wrong about everything. Anon says we missed the point of her character, but that's pretty much the purpose of her existence.
While I get some people don't like Homura and she has her issues, this does not really stand to make Sayaka more likabke. Homura is an Urobuchian protagonist in the vein of Kiritsugu Emiya, though I don't know what direction she's headed in post-Rebellion. Sayaka continues to be Kariya Matou.
>>2037223
I know /u/ likes Submura and I'm a fan myself, but this is probably more accurate. Homura does have masochistic tendencies that I'm she would like Madoka to indulge, but her wish can translate as "I want to be dominant enough to top Madoka". Considering Madoka told her to live up to her name and Rebellion had Madoka telling her that she wanted to be there to support Homura even if she wasn't strong enough to do anything, I think Madoka wants Homura to wear the pants in the relationship.
>>2038026
Her wish was about protecting Madoka. Guardians that are utterly submissive to their charge are not uncommon. Madoka I think is flexible enough to be willing to take charge when she realizes that Homura needs her to do so.
This is the conversation that I want to see next project desu
>>2038026
>Homura does have masochistic tendencies that I'm she would like Madoka to indulge
Considering her extremely obvious, life-threatening self esteem issues and mental problems, I'm not so sure she's willing to take the dom spot.
I imagine she'd be apprehensive and fearful about fucking up the whole time, even if it was just about initiating some action.
>>2038034
I kinda do want to see how Madoka's family reacts to the full story of Madoka and Homura's relationship. Madoka introducing Homura as her girlfriend would probably go by rather easily, but Madoka doesn't strike me as the sort to not come out about the whole story about how they ended up together.
>>2038040
>Hey Mama, this is my girlfriend, who I met in a previous universe, several timeline loops ago, before I transcended humanity and became a god...
>>2038044
Well at least Junko has an awesome reason the drink now.
>>2038034
>wings on momoka and dadoka.
>>2037776
>the plot goes out of its way to prove that Homura can never do wrong despite the stark contradictions to that statement, as opposed to Sayaka, whom the writers love to walk all over
I agree with you about Sayaka, but how does the plot go out of the way to justify Homura? She's arguably the most flawed character in the entire series. The entirety of Rebellion is Homura losing it due to being unable to survive without Madoka around to protect, proceeding to want to kill herself and then fucking up the entire universe and ultimately herself more miserable than everyone else.
Even in the TV series for the majority of the show Homura is set up to look like a huge asshole. She threatens to literally kill Sayaka and the show ends with her failing her only purpose in life. I do think a lot of people romanticize Homura and her wish and brush over these things, but it's pretty obvious that Homura is incredibly messed up and not a good person.
>>2038060
I wouldn't go as far as to say that Homura is a bad person. A really sick/broken/hurt one sure, but not bad.
>>2038060
>Homura is not a good person.
No anon. Homura is indeed flawed, hurt and and broken, but she is never one with ill will. Her threatening to kill Sayaka is not so much because of hating her or want to be get rid of her, but more so because she is desensitized to death already and she knew Sayaka is always beyond help. Homura's threat is most of the time empty, and even in her battle with Mami in rebellion you can see she is never one who shoot to kill.
She is messed up and her definition of happiness is kinda fucked over, but she is not a bad person, anon.
OHGOD
>>2038075
>>2038076
That does not look like a very healthy Homura.
>>2038074
All this, more or less.
Is Homura flawed? Yes.
Does she make mistakes? Absolutely
Is she troubled by all the shit she went through? That's an understatement.
But she's not a bad person. Damaged and flawed, but ultimately and (in her own way) intentionally good.
>>2038077
This is fine.
>>2038083
Madoka wouldn't love her if she was a bad person
>>2038086
That's probably the best way of looking at it.Side-ponytail Madoka is wonderful
>>2038083
It is telling that her idea of going full Satan involves giving happy lives to everyone she knows.
>>2038060
>Even in the TV series for the majority of the show Homura is set up to look like a huge asshole. She threatens to literally kill Sayaka and the show ends with her failing her only purpose in life.
She threatens to kill Sayaka right after Sayaka insults her and throws away the grief seed she offered. She's set up as the "antagonist" up until the climax of episode 8 and becomes the co-protagonist from 10 onward. There is a reason episode 10 occurs after the majority of the story ends has unfolded and it changes everything about Homura.
>I do think a lot of people romanticize Homura and her wish and brush over these things, but it's pretty obvious that Homura is incredibly messed up and not a good person.
Maybe because that's the way the narrative presents it? Madoka literally thanked her for everything she did. She may not be the nicest and she has deep emotional and psychological wounds, but she is definitely a good person at heart.
>>2038086
This.
>>2038092
Keep in mind she doesn't even know Nagisa.
>>2038060
The plot does make it a point to show that Homura is sad and pitiful and that thinking that she did anything wrong is the wrong course of thoughts. The after credits scene is the best example of that.
>>2038157
You are not alone after credits or dancing on Kyubey's corpse after credits?
>>2038044
>Did I mention she's the devil?
>>2037866
>How so?
From a viewer's point of view we are aware of Homura's situation, that's why we're more inclined to take Homura's side on the matter. But is her reaction to Homura really that unbelievable? What if somebody approached you all of a sudden and told you that they came from the future and that the creature that grants everyone's wishes is the real bad guy? It's the kind of information that's hard to swallow. And een Mami, who's the more intelligent one of the bunch, is always sceptical about Homura.
>Even then it was preceded by an hour and forty minute explanation for Homura's mental collapse and more a summation of the current situation
And as always, my point of Homura not being able to do any wrong according to how the plot plays out is emphasised even more here.
Think of how Rebellion ended. Everyone is happy (or so it is shown), Kyuubey is defeated and suffering like never before and Madoka is back and reunited with her family-and this conveniently happened right after a scene where Madoka admits that she would be very lonely if she'd have to abandon all of those dear to her; yet another way to prove that what Homura did wasn't wrong, despite of how twisted it all really is.
>>2037924
>She isn't really more realistic because an actual 14 year old girl would have run away after episode 3
She and Madoka had no way to run away as they were both still trapped in the witch's labyrinth. And despite of how easy Sayaka gets off compared to the other girls, she's still the character with the least emotional strength. See, losing a boy you love is way less tragic than losing your parents. But the other girls had the fortitude of overcoming all these obstacles, somehow they managed to "get over it"- and that is the kind of emotional strength that is not easily found in girls at such age. It's truly amazing how Kyouko dealt with the tragedy of what happened, but I don't see many young girls having that kind of strength. Homura, too, is very similar to Kyouko, though in the final timeline even her soul gem is starting to get tainted.
Judging from the pic in the trailer where Sayaka seems to be help captive in Homura's room, I assume the conflict already took place and Homura had to be forced to keep her restrained. I do hope that the two of them come to an understanding eventually since the two of them have Madoka's best will as a common goal.
come to think of it, I can see Sayaka becoming really close to Homura during the course of these events. Sayaka has shown the capability of being able to understand Homura (though only after learning of her struggles), I'm sure Sayaka can do it again.
>>2037950
>>2038022
I did mention in my post that if I met her in real life, that I'd probably not get along with her. And to be fair, most of my understanding and appreciation for the character was caused by her character development in Rebellion. Really, it's like she went back to how she was before the Kyousuke bsusiness, but this time with the added experience of all the previous timelines, meaning that she became aware of her own flaws and even went as far as feeling compassionate towards Homura during two major plot instances.
>>2038160
Latter.
>>2038162
I love Ayane. Is this up online?
>>2038168
It's on danbooru, no translations yet.
>>2038169
I'll go look at the pictures anyway. Thanks!
>>2038167
>Judging from the pic in the trailer where Sayaka seems to be help captive in Homura's room, I assume the conflict already took place and Homura had to be forced to keep her restrained.
I think that clip is more symbolic than anything, In essence, Homura already has had her restrained since the end of Rebellion. I viewed that more her trying to regain her memories/connection to the LoC. Even though Homura means well, she has effectively trapped the heavenly trio.
>I can see Sayaka becoming really close to Homura during the course of these events. Sayaka has shown the capability of being able to understand Homura (though only after learning of her struggles), I'm sure Sayaka can do it again.
I'm confident Kyubey will rise from the ashes and give Sayaka and Homura a reason to work together. Madoka doesn't want them to fight, and I think they can find common ground with their drive to serve Madoka.
>>2038173
I doubt it's just meant to be symbolic seeing as it's preceded by a scene of Sayaka's unconscious body lying in a pool of purple water with Oktavia in the background. It's evidence that Sayaka went all out again and Homura defeated her without doing as much as lifting a finger. Since Sayaka is bound to become an obstacle despite having her memories overwritten over and over again, Homura would find it more convenient to keep her shut away in her appartment room. My guess is that Mami and Kyouko will eventually try to rescue her and that's where the Mami vs. Homura clash will come in as Mami and Kyouko slowly start to regain their own memories.
>I'm confident Kyubey will rise from the ashes and give Sayaka and Homura a reason to work together. Madoka doesn't want them to fight, and I think they can find common ground with their drive to serve Madoka.
A bunch of dead cats that also walk around, zombie cats. I wonder if Kyouko was referring to the Incubators when she said this? I agree that Kyuubey and Madoka's interference will likely be the reasons they will end up joining forces.
>>2038179
I'm just not sold on her keeping her sealed up in the apartment. I do agree though that a Sayaka defeat and capture would result in both Kyouko and Mami confronting Homura
>A bunch of dead cats that also walk around, zombie cats. I wonder if Kyouko was referring to the Incubators when she said this? I agree that Kyuubey and Madoka's interference will likely be the reasons they will end up joining forces
Madoka asks an unnamed individual and the yosei collective for help. I'm split between this being Mami and Kyubey or Homura and her familiars. Considering her familiars fill all the roles of traditional yonsei (tricksters that resembke 5 year old children) it's possible that the dead cats are legitimately being revived, as this is another trait of yosei.
>>2038188
I do have to wonder what Homura's intentions are with Sayaka in her apartment like that. Judging from how she looks and how her soul gem is resting on Sayaka's forehead I can only guess that a process of brain washing is probably taking place. Like she's trying to turn Sayaka into a completely different person with a different personality and all.
That does make sense. I suppose it will work against her judging from the fact that she's being chased by Homura's familiars during one of the scenes.
>>2038222
The idea of Sayaka in a Rinzler-ish role intrigues me.
Rikugo is relentless
>It's prostitution!
>I wonder if she knows about my affair with the wraith
>>2038166
>What if somebody approached you all of a sudden and told you that they came from the future and that the creature that grants everyone's wishes is the real bad guy?
If that person was also a magical girl, had thorough knowledge that they shouldn't have about me and my fellow magical girl friends, the powers we use, our fighting tactics, the general mechanics of being a magical girl, etc. And that person could also easily demonstrate, on demand, that she had the ability to control time... I'm gonna say I'd at least consider what she's saying and think about the entire magical girl system and what incubators are getting out of it, instead of brushing her off to whine about how her explosions make fighting a pain.
>People genuinely liking Sayaka
I will never understand it.
>>2038246
>People genuinely liking Sayaka
>I will never understand it.
One nee-san's trash is another nee-san's waifu. What I will never understand is people genuinely thinking Sayaka is heroic.
>>2038264
>sayaka
>trash
Also don't bring up waifu fagatory in here.
>>2038264
From these threads I get that the vast majority of you hate Sayaka but to me she's the best.
>>2038339
I love me some Cheeky Miki too.
>>2038339
I like everybody.
Except Kyuubey, screw him.
>>2038166
>But is her reaction to Homura really that unbelievable? What if somebody approached you all of a sudden and told you that they came from the future and that the creature that grants everyone's wishes is the real bad guy? It's the kind of information that's hard to swallow. And een Mami, who's the more intelligent one of the bunch, is always sceptical about Homura.
I don't think you're really helping to prove your point here.
It's definitely more logical that she wouldn't be believed easily in-universe, but this doesn't prove that she's in the wrong - more that, as the dueteragonist, we can't have her easily succeed, or else she'll have achieved her goal too easily, or lost at it based on something other than herself.
Part of her problem is her weird social issues too; people forget that Moemura is base Homu. She's a shy, lonely, un-confident girl even in the best of times. Trying to get across that the little alien granting wishes is evil, or that she knows the future, is much harder with those issues on top of it.
>>2038267
>putting an autistic spin on a very old saying
Yeah, waifufaggotry. That's what I was bringing up...
>>2038339
See >>2037825. This is exactly how I feel. Sayaka does not deserve the shit she gets, but whenever I see that name, I am compelled to shit on it.
>>2037825
Are you the same anon who posts Bern/Lambda all the time, or is it that picture of Homura that's giving me that vibe?
>>2038348
>Part of her problem is her weird social issues too
This is very true. Homura has a base charisma score of like 3. As adorable as she is, she's too afraid to even say Madoka's first name. She has no hope of convincing a strong personality like Mami that her only companion is evil or hard headed personalities like Kyouko and Sayaka.
>>2038352
Not me anon, I just happened to have a lizard Homu handy.
>>2038339
Its a very loud minority. At least it is not as bad here as it is elsewhere.
Sayaka is one of my least favorite characters (I like all of them) but I still feel compelled to defend her now and then, just because of how extremely hostile people who don't like her seem to be.
>>2038362
I actually think it's just that one faggot on /a/ who utterly spoiled Sayaka on me. I cry evertim for her when I watch the show, but get so triggeredand there's honestly no better term. It's like a sudden rage boils deep within methe moment I see her name in writing.
>>2038363
I feel kind of the same about Homu, though mostly because the "Homura did nothing wrong" crowd is so utterly dumb.
>>2038367
I generally feel like they're trolling though. Homura certainly did some things wrong.
>>2038367
Homura is basically a more benevolent, and well-mentioned, Lucifer, from Paradise Lost.
She should be applauded for intentions, not her methods.
And Homura is a thousand times less annoying. At least Homura can acknowledged what she did is wrong, and isn't a stuck up, arrogant, bitch like Sayka.
So long as we're complaining about which girls we don't like all that much, I'll have to put in my vote for Mami.
I don't hate her, but I find that I like every other girl much more. Mami just felt like she had too much love despite her only being in a quarter of the show, and having a memorable death. She always felt like the odd one out too, considering the main and beta coupes.
Rebellion definitely fixed that, and also gave her some object of affection (be it romantic or parental - everyone has their opinion) in Nagisa, but Mami still just seems a bit over-liked, in a way I can't really explain.
Hatedom in general is pretty retarded, though.Homu is best girl and I think Sayaka is fine.
>>2038372
Who doesn't love a reliable senpai who turns out to be completely unreliable? I think it's the gap moe.
And also the breasts.
>>2038373
>Who doesn't love a reliable senpai who turns out to be completely unreliable? I think it's the gap moe.
She was a bit insidious with her reasons for winning over Madoka and Sayaka.
>And also the breasts.
They are some nice breasts, I'll give you that.
Maybe I hate Sayaka because I saw the dub first.
>>2038381
>watching a dub, ever
>>2038381
What the fuck.
>>2038246
What if that girl was a nervous wreck who could barely string two sentences together and didn't seem very confident in her assertions, and failed to put up a decent argument? What if there is another Magical Girl who you already knew, and respected, far more than this other one, and this more respectable girl believes the exact opposite of what this new one is saying, but is able to make her own case much more confidently?
Can you see how the scales start to waver in the other direction?
As an added bonus, indeed this other girl just set a bunch of explosions off in your face, and you are a tad annoyed with her about that to begin with and not really in the mood to listen to what she has to say.
>>2038410
It is worth noting that not even Madoka seems to believe Homura in that scene, though she's much more diplomatic about it.
>>2038411
>Say me from my stupid self. Don't let Kyubey fool me.
Bitch should have listened to the meganekko.
>>2038372
I'd have to go for either Mami for the reasons you mentioned or Madoka. Madoka is pretty much the sole reason I can't bring myself to ship Madohomu.
>>2038410
>What if that girl was a nervous wreck who could barely string two sentences together and didn't seem very confident in her assertions
That would probably fit pretty well with the horrible thing she is claiming. I'd be more concerned if she was just casually talking about it. Either way I'd least bother to think about it for a minute instead of simply dismissing it.
>>2038410
>>2038411
Also, please. In what universe is Sayaka some ultra respected magical girl? She has never not been the weakest of all of them. And she is not "able to make her own case much more confidently" she asks what Kyuubey would gain from lying and then makes a baseless claim about Homura trying to turn them against each other and working with Kyouko. And Madoka then outright points out that Sayaka is the one who is starting a fight between comrades.
>>2038370
>and isn't a stuck up, arrogant, bitch like Sayaka.
When she was arrogant? I don't remember she being like that -__-
>>2038498
Anon meant Mami.
>>2038588
Not even a hater, but arrogance is definitely one of Sayaka's attributes.
She is excessively confident that her way is the right way, and that her judgements are the right ones.
Kyouko is a bit more arrogant, I think, but Sayaka is up there.
>>2038410
>>2038411
>>2038498
An important thing to consider is that they simply do not want to believe what Homura says as this will both against their world and it would be an admission that they have been deceived and are essentially doomed. And usually the moment that there is incontestable evidence means that the situation is already out of control.
>>2038593
Like almost all people on this planet...
>>2038625
That's a good point.
We get a good look at one timeline where they did believe her, and that's the one where Mami goes full "taking you out for your own good" with her despair.
Although I always wondered how Mami hadn't reached her despair limit and witched out then and there. I'm certain just seeing what happened would've driven her over the edge, let alone deciding that she needed to kill her friends.
>>2038593
I think trying to pass off her selfishness as selflessness is probably Sayaka's main flaw.
>>2038636
Considering Madoka Portable on Route Homura is if Sayaka turns into witch the player has the choice to confirm that she actually turned into witch and solve kill her alone, in this case occurs fight and when it ends Kyouko essentially cut ties with Homura and Mami will commit suicide the next day with a letter noting that she dies as a human being and that can at least be remembered. This similar in The Different Story where at the end after the Kyouko dies in order to save her she commits suicide with a similar letter. In route Mami she only becomes witch when feelings of failure, isolation and guilt for not having saved parents are out of control. Basically if she knows she can turn into witch, she maintain enough composure to her suicide.
>>2038591
Does Mami argue against Homura? As far as I remember she is silent and then after Sayaka complains about the bombs, she asks if Homura has any alternatives to explosives.
>>2038643
Thing is, she truly believes herself that her selfishness is actually selfishness - I don't think Sayaka really ever understands that until she reaches the end point of her despair.
>>2038695
No, but the whole point of the scene is that none of the other girls believe Homura and we know Mami has a high opinion of Kyubey. Sayaka's just the only one brash enough to tell Homura to go fuck herself.
>>2038381
Dub Sayaka sounds almost identical to sub Sayaka. The "for realz" nonsense is stupid, though.
>>2038884
And the one that ruins Homura's chances of getting them to believe her, by turning the conversation to an unimportant topic.
>>2038392
Homura's dub is great both in series and Rebellion.
>>2038991
As a dubfag I will admit that Chiwa Saito knocked it out of the park in Rebellion where Cristina Vee didn't quite get to the same level in regards to the witch suicide part, but the dub really isn't too shabby.
If any of you want to watch the dub, I recommend ignoring the series and watching the movies. The VAs were too green or out of practice in the series proper but they're in the full swing of it when it comes to the movies.
my absolute favourite
>>2038925
If Mami and Madoka had the smallest inclination to believe Homura, they wouldn't have let Sayaka change the subject.
>>2038996
Or you could do the proper thing and skip the dub.
Literally there's not a single reason to watch the dub
>>2039246
>Girls can't love girls
That's one.
>>2039246
What if I want to try the dub since I have already watched with subs 12 times?
It's not a bad dub at least. It is just not as good as the japanese dub.
>>2039246
>Literally there's not a single reason to watch the dub
My BDs are duap audio. Why pay for the blurays if you only use half of the product?
>>2039342
Just because you own a knife doesn't mean you must stab yourself with it.
>>2039377
That is a really really horrible comparison.
>>2039472
It's appropriate because listening to English dubs of anime is like getting stabbed in the ear.
>>2039477
That's not fair, the Madoka dub is decent.
I watched it after I watched the subs, it's not a negative experience to watch something in a language you understand, if the dub is acceptable.
Please, let's not have a subs vs dubs fight in here.
Is posting fics still kosher? I shared one of mine last summer and a few people here liked it. Thinking about posting it again since the 'finished' project keeps growing new chapters.
>>2039482
Regardless of whether the dub is good or not, in the vast majority of cases, the original dub of a product will be superior. Their are a variety of reasons why, but the main one being that the original voice director knew exactly what the characters are supposed to sound like and how they're supposed to act.
Most English dubbing companies don't care and know that people who are too lazy to read the subtitles aren't the sort of people to care about the quality of the voice acting. Then you have companies like Disney who do very good jobs at dubbing anime because they already know how to do good voice acting for their own products.
Now, I don't know what the Madoka Eng dub sounds like and I don't care to find out. I'm just saying that most dubs are dog shit.
>>2039489
I'm always looking for good fics for the series that I enjoy, because they're so rare.
So sure, go ahead.
>>2039489
sharing OC is always cool if it's on topic. Sharing other people's shit is also cool.
>>2039492
We all know most dubs suck. Those reasons don't matter when a dub is decent.
Complaining about a dub you have not seen/heard is also really strange.
>>2039246
There are some people in this world who can't split their focus between subs and the action on screen. I show some anime to people like that. Sometimes I have to insist on subs but dubs usually won't murder us in our sleep.
>>2039659
>There are some people in this world who can't split their focus between subs and the action on screen.
Over here pretty much anything that's not animated or for children gets subbed. The notion that some people can't concentrate on subtitles is just bizarre to me.
Funnily enough, the first time I watched PMMM was dubbed. The person who streamed it for me hadn't asked for my preference.
>>2038593
I wouldn't really call it arrogance. I can understand where she's coming from. For example, how she thinks that saving people over using them as just cattle, doesn't seem really that arrogant to me, let alone selfish. It's "common sense" that humans life shouldn't be treated in the way that Kyouko does.
>>2039691
She's incredibly prideful, which includes arrogant. The fact is that she consistently refused help and advice from more experienced meguca and assumed everything would work out in the end because she was fighting for the city. When it became apparent she was actually the weakest and that the way to solve this was to collect grief seeds, she instead got angry and refused to even use them.
Even at the mere suggestion that she try to find common ground with Homura and Kyouko, Sayaka has a panic attack. She refuses the grief seed from Homura solely because it's from Homura. Arrogance is probably the wrong word, but her pride is very much responsible for her death.
>>2039691
As another anon said, her excessive pride and self-confidence can certainly be seen as arrogant.
Sayaka spends a good part of the series
>Lording her morals over others
>Refusing to listen to reason
>Denying her own weaknesses and being blind to important issues
Among other things.
>For example, how she thinks that saving people over using them as just cattle, doesn't seem really that arrogant to me, let alone selfish. It's "common sense" that humans life shouldn't be treated in the way that Kyouko does.
Sure, and the only person in the show that sees it differently is Kyouko (which ends up being something of a self-deception for her own emotional protection after what happened in her past). Madoka cries over the thought, Mami enjoys saving people, and Homu takes down witches in order to save Madoka, but she doesn't seem to hate others, or wait for them to kill more people as witches.
>>2039780
>Sure, and the only person in the show that sees it differently is Kyouko (which ends up being something of a self-deception for her own emotional protection after what happened in her past)
Kyouko isn't necessarily wrong either. While she is wrong for purposely letting familiars eat humans, it's counter productive to actively hunt familiars.
>>2039785
I actually almost sided with Kyouko - waiting is definitely the better move on the Magical Girl side of things; you waste less energy overall, and you get a bigger prize at the end.
From the human side of the equation, though, it's ass. And for a big part of the series - especially near the beginning of her tenure as an MG, Sayaka still saw herself as a "human". It's why she really got fucked up when she realized she was nothing more than a "zombie"
>>2039766
>>2039780
Pride is indeed the fitting word here. Arrogance applies more to Kyouko's morals before she had her personality change. I'd add that she's incredibly stubborn too, however, that stubbornness was also brought forward by the revelation of the nature of being a magical girl + having lost Kyousuke to Hitomi. She had given up on living on so why would she accept the grief seeds of others?
While I agree that she acted unfairly towards Homura, in Sayaka's eyes, Kyouko is the definition of all that's wrong with mankind. She refuses to stoop as low as Kyouko. The beautiful thing about this is that it's Kyouko who changes her point of view thanks to Sayaka's perseverance.
>>2039780
>but she doesn't seem to hate others, or wait for them to kill more people as witches
I'd argue that Homura views anyone that isn't Madoka as her pawns. She herself states several times that she isn't human anymore which is why she's incapable of feeling emotions towards anything that isn't related to her one goal. In the end, she even admits that it wasn't her intention at all to bring Sayaka, Mami, Kyouko and Nagisa back to life, they were simply sucked in unintentionally (this is an argument I see being used a lot in Homura's defense).
>>2039785
>Kyouko isn't necessarily wrong either
From a humane point of view she is entirely wrong. Kyouko isn't even doing things for the greater good where the end justifies the means, she's acing all out on her own selfish desires where only she has something to gain from it.
It's a matter of being a weapon for humanity and die knowing that no one even acknowledged you as a hero, or being master of your own fate and everyone else be damned.
>>2039805
>she even admits that it wasn't her intention at all to bring Sayaka, Mami, Kyouko and Nagisa back to life, they were simply sucked in unintentionally
Got a screenshot? I don't remember her saying this.
>She herself states several times that she isn't human anymore which is why she's incapable of feeling emotions towards anything that isn't related to her one goal.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I took that as a lie. She's very capable of feeling emotion - rewatching the series, or even reviewing it after episode 10 shows this pretty well. It's only that she blocks herself off, or holds back her emotions, because those feelings get in the way.
>While I agree that she acted unfairly towards Homura, in Sayaka's eyes, Kyouko is the definition of all that's wrong with mankind. She refuses to stoop as low as Kyouko. The beautiful thing about this is that it's Kyouko who changes her point of view thanks to Sayaka's perseverance.
>>2039805
>In the end, she even admits that it wasn't her intention at all to bring Sayaka, Mami, Kyouko and Nagisa back to life, they were simply sucked in unintentionally (this is an argument I see being used a lot in Homura's defense).
This falls into the part where Homura is intentionally playing herself up as a villain. The fact that as a witch she subconsciously chose everyone above (except Nagisa?) and dragged them into her barrier before giving everyone an ideal typical magical girl life strengthens this if it was not already apparent enough.
>>2039809
>she's acing all out on her own selfish desires where only she has something to gain from it.
While Kyouko certainly is a bitch early on, keep in mind that the only thing she gains from it is basically not dying. It would be comparable to a street rat stealing food (which Kyouko also is and does) except the food only exists in the first place if people die for it and preventing that requires hunting eldritch horrors (which expends energy, making you require more 'food' while also not gaining any).
One exception to this is that grief seeds also double as basically MP pots, allowing you to go all out in fights against either witches or other girls without worry. In this way they could be seen as power that can be stockpiled, but it is still power required to avoid dying.
You don't really master anything with Kyouko's ideals, you just have the best odds of survival in any scenario since you have more 'food' to live off of and more power to draw upon against tough enemies and rivals holding territory.
![Rebellion.mkv_snapshot_01.42.27_[2016.04.27_19.17.37].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/JmrMuOL.jpg "Rebellion.mkv_snapshot_01.42.27_[2016.04.27_19.17.37].jpg")
>>2039814
>Maybe I'm wrong, but I took that as a lie. She's very capable of feeling emotion - rewatching the series, or even reviewing it after episode 10 shows this pretty well. It's only that she blocks herself off, or holds back her emotions, because those feelings get in the way.
This may be true, but even going as far as blocking those emotions makes her come to the conclusion that she stopped being human, because really, nothing else matters to her except Madoka.
>>2039821
>This falls into the part where Homura is intentionally playing herself up as a villain. The fact that as a witch she subconsciously chose everyone above (except Nagisa?) and dragged them into her barrier before giving everyone an ideal typical magical girl life strengthens this if it was not already apparent enough.
And this is where I become sceptical. She did not intentionally drag them in and put them in the place they ended up in. It all happened without her consent, similar to what happened in the dream world, she subconsciously dragged in Kyouko, Mami, Kyousuke and Hitomi.
>>2039821
Her life alone is already enough for her to gain something from how she's acting. Yes, it requires witches to eat humans but Kyouko "is" technically a human as well, even if she doesn't view herself as human anymore, so that's why from a humane point of view she's wrong.
>You don't really master anything with Kyouko's ideals, you just have the best odds of survival in any scenario since you have more 'food' to live off of and more power to draw upon against tough enemies and rivals holding territory.
She becomes a master of her own life. Whereas other girls live for the sakes of other people that don't even acknowledge the efforts that they're making. Kyouko gets to decide how to store up her magical energy without worrying about saving people or having to die herself because of having used up all her magical energy.
>>2039827
>It all happened without her consent, similar to what happened in the dream world, she subconsciously dragged in Kyouko, Mami, Kyousuke and Hitomi.
Consent or not, her subconscious is still a part of her - there's a part of her, as it shows, that still cares about these people, and/or about making them happy. Homu has a canon track record of denying her emotions, of being insanely hard on herself and on others too.
In Rebellion the Clara Dolls literally act on this, and on her subconscious desires.
If the other girls (and Kyousuke) got dragged in without her "choosing" them, it's because there's still a part of her that wants them happy, or at the very least a part of her that believes them being there will make Madoka happy - and a happy Madoka is ultimately a happy Homu. It's not like she hadn't tried to save them in previous timelines.
>>2039805
>bring Sayaka, Mami, Kyouko and Nagisa back to life
Kyouko and Mami aren't dead. She didn't intend to bring Sayaka and Nagisa back from the dead, but she still gave them happy lives anyways. She could have easily just killed them.
>Kyouko isn't even doing things for the greater good where the end justifies the means, she's acing all out on her own selfish desires where only she has something to gain from it.
Did you miss the part where there is no greater good? The only "greater good" is preserving the universe through the cycle of hope and despair.
>She herself states several times that she isn't human anymore which is why she's incapable of feeling emotions towards anything that isn't related to her one goal.
I dunno, after 12 years, I'd stop caring too. She doesn't make excuses for acting like a bitch. This is her most admirable trait desu. Did you miss the part where she will literally die if she at any point begins to question the point of her mission?
>>2039827
>Taking anything Homura says in that scene at face value
It's pay back for the earlier scene in the alley.
>>2039827
>She did not intentionally drag them in and put them in the place they ended up in. It all happened without her consent, similar to what happened in the dream world, she subconsciously dragged in Kyouko, Mami, Kyousuke and Hitomi.
The point is that since she did it subconsciously it is what she wanted even if she did not know it. It 100% for sure was subconscious the first time, but I find it unlikely that it would be for the second as well due to her control of the new world and her knowledge of the barrier. She understands that the witch world was ideal and constructed to make people happy, so if you wanted to argue that she did not give everyone happy lives out of simply wishing them well the best you could do is argue that she gave everyone happy lives simply to prevent from from trying to rebel. Having it happen on accident doesn't make sense when she has both the motivation and the power to do it herself, in addition to having a very recent example she learned from.
The sum of this is that Homura telling Sayaka she did not do it on purpose is about as truthful as everything else she said in that conversation.
![Rebellion.mkv_snapshot_01.43.10_[2016.04.27_19.58.45].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/j70ct9b.jpg "Rebellion.mkv_snapshot_01.43.10_[2016.04.27_19.58.45].jpg")
>>2039852
Her way of caring for these people is having their memories erased? Or telling others how they should and should not be like?
>>2039864
>Kyouko and Mami aren't dead. She didn't intend to bring Sayaka and Nagisa back from the dead, but she still gave them happy lives anyways. She could have easily just killed them.
Yeah I actually worded that the wrong way. What I meant is that she didn't intent to drag in Kyouko, Mami, Sayaka or Nagisa into the her newly created world.
>Did you miss the part where there is no greater good? The only "greater good" is preserving the universe through the cycle of hope and despair.
The greater good from a human's point of view is to preserve the species in a so efficient way possible- e.g. killing 100.000 to save millions.
>>2039868
This sounds like damage control to me. Homura is literally fucked in the head.
>>2039872
>Her way of caring for these people is having their memories erased? Or telling others how they should and should not be like?
Her way of caring for them is putting them in the happiest situation they can possibly be in. For example Sayaka is alive and happy, and Kyousuke has his arm healed. Those things were incapable of existing for more than a very brief period of time before despair and death until Homura forced them.
>>2039827
Not that nee-san, but
>she subconsciously dragged in Kyouko, Mami, Kyousuke and Hitomi.
Which means that it was intentional on a subconscious level. She wanted them around and made a happy, safe space for them to live within the Labyrinth when she could have just left them out or killed them after pulling them in. The part of her that was aware of being a witch still feels favorably towards them.
>>2039872
>Her way of caring for these people is having their memories erased? Or telling others how they should and should not be like?
>Homura being a control freak is something new
Also, have you never read anything from those 1984/Brave New World/"utopian" kind of books? Taking their memories and replacing them with happy ones does make someone happy, unless they manage to escape from the system - literally what happened previously in her Labyrinth, and probably a foreshadowing of what will happen again.
Also, regardless of their memories being stolen, all of the characters are given something that would truly make them happy otherwise.
>Mami gets to not be dead
>Nagisa gets to not be a witch, and to be with Mami
>Kyouko is given food, a chance to go to school, and a chance to be with Sayaka
>Sayaka gets to be alive and see her friends again. Kyousuke is also healed
>Madoka doesn't have to be a lonely goddess anymore.
The ends might justify the means here.
>>2039870
I find it curious how the main argument used against "Homura isn't really" evil is that she's merely acting out the role of being evil. She herself admits that she became evil due to the fact that she brought down a god- that alone is the definition of evil, therefore she "is" evil. How she acts towards Sayaka and Madoka is how she truly felt all along. She explains to Kyuubey that nobody in the entirety of history would understand her because only she alone can understand the feeling of "love". This showcases the selfish nature of her wish.
>>2039870
>The sum of this is that Homura telling Sayaka she did not do it on purpose is about as truthful as everything else she said in that conversation.
Again, damage control.
>>2039875
She already said that it wasn't her intention to put them in that world. Nothing of how everything turned out is how she desired it, except for the fact that Madoka is back in her human form.
>>2039876
>nee-san
What's with /u/ and using this?
Until they start getting in her way, like Sayaka and to a certain extent, Godoka, so she has to manipulate them into believing that everything is alright.
>>2039877
>Also, have you never read anything from those 1984/Brave New World/"utopian" kind of books?
I have.
>Taking their memories and replacing them with happy ones does make someone happy, unless they manage to escape from the system - literally what happened previously in her Labyrinth, and probably a foreshadowing of what will happen again.
One thing is to take their memories so they can lead happy lives, another is is to take their memories so they don't get in the way of what "she" thinks is a happy life for them. What makes Homura believe that she's in the right? That nullifying Madoka's wish is in the right? And please don't come up with the talk during the flower scene because the Madoka there is like talking to a Madoka that never made her wish.
Also, what makes you think that Madoka and Sayaka weren't alredy happy in heaven? Sayaka was happily acting as Madoka's arch angel. Madoka was happily acting as the savior of magical girls, and waiting for her and Homura to reunite and live happily ever after. As well as Kyouko and Mami, sure they were left behind without the others, but they were still happy in a way.
>>2039878
>I find it curious how the main argument used against "Homura isn't really" evil is that she's merely acting out the role of being evil. She herself admits that she became evil due to the fact that she brought down a god- that alone is the definition of evil, therefore she "is" evil.
She also admits that she is so beyond help that this is the only thing she can do to save the person she loves. She didn't become a devil because she was evil. She became a devil because it was the only way she could see to make someone - Madoka - happy. Even if it meant becoming her opposite. She spells this out entirely.
>She explains to Kyuubey that nobody in the entirety of history would understand her because only she alone can understand the feeling of "love". This showcases the selfish nature of her wish.
>Homu is shown to be mindbroken from despair, to the point of suicide
>Feels like she's the only person who can feel like she does.
It's actually pretty realistic. Self-loathing on her level really does make one have tunnel vision. She's not selfish out of actual evil desire.
>>2039878
>She herself admits that she became evil due to the fact that she brought down a god- that alone is the definition of evil
What. No. Especially not in Shinto. How the hell is that a definition anywhere. Under that logic since Homura is now a god-like deity it is inherently evil to resist her.
If your argument is "Homura really meant what she said" then everything you state afterwards falls apart when someone takes half a look at the subtext in that scene. Any examination of Homura's character makes it pretty clear what was happening.
>>2039880
>What makes Homura believe that she's in the right?
About 12 years of time loops
>That nullifying Madoka's wish is in the right? And please don't come up with the talk during the flower scene because the Madoka there is like talking to a Madoka that never made her wish.
Homura acting on the flower scene is entirely in character, though. Homurs is not perfect. A good character never is. She was mislead - by herself, unintentionally - and this lead to her decision. Regardless, it was still in-character for her to act on that. Neither her nor Madoka really had the full story in that scene (Madoka had no memories, and Homura didn't know the extent of that). She took the information she was given and made the choice to tear Madoka from godhood, but it really was what she thought was the best decision.
>Also, what makes you think that Madoka and Sayaka weren't alredy happy in heaven? Sayaka was happily acting as Madoka's arch angel. Madoka was happily acting as the savior of magical girls, and waiting for her and Homura to reunite and live happily ever after.
It's implied that Mahou Shoujo heaven is lonely, and Madoka literally has to spend every instance of time all at once saving magical girls.
>>2039880
>What makes Homura believe that she's in the right? That nullifying Madoka's wish is in the right?
What is 'right' does not matter and heavily debatable anyway. Homura made her friends happy, is the point here. There is no such thing as fake happiness. Homura did what she did to make Madoka happy, and in the process also made everyone else happy. If you think that is wrong somehow then fine, but she did not do it out of hostile intent either of the times she did it.
>Sayaka was happily acting as Madoka's arch angel.
>Madoka was happily acting as the savior of magical girls
We don't know this at all. In fact the concept movie makes it seem very much like the opposite.
>As well as Kyouko and Mami, sure they were left behind without the others, but they were still happy in a way.
I'm sure they would very much prefer if their loved ones were still alive and did not have to fight.
>>2039881
So she, in fact, admits that she became evil because of the nature of her actions. Moreover, she also acknowledges the fact that she will end up facing against Madoka even with the knowledge that what she's doing is wrong, and all this because she wants Madoka to be happy. Or does she really? I find it more believable that what she actually wants is to have Madoka nearby her, since her wish of protecting Madoka never came to a fulfillment, all she can do to make it happen, is by doing what she did during those last 20 minutes of Rebellion. Looking at it this way, Madoka is merely a tool to her.
>She's not selfish out of actual evil desire.
But she is selfish.
>>2039882
Why are you suddenly bringing up Shinto when that part has more Christian symbolism that anything else? By this definition, Homura became some sort of Satan figure.
>Any examination of Homura's character makes it pretty clear what was happening.
You mean, reaching at straws.
>>2039872
>The greater good from a human's point of view is to preserve the species in a so efficient way possible- e.g. killing 100.000 to save millions.
She doesn't view herself as human. She specifically says witches eat humans, magical girls "eat" witches.
>Homura is literally fucked in the head.
Nobody argues against that.
>This sounds like damage control to me.
The point is that scene is meant to reference back to that point where Sayaka was condescending to an emotionally distressed Homura. Now we have Homura condescend to an emotionally distressed Sayaka.
>>2039892
>Sayaka was happily acting as Madoka's arch angel.
>Madoka was happily acting as the savior of magical girls
>We don't know this at all. In fact the concept movie makes it seem very much like the opposite.
This is the problem with all the fucking yuri valhalla fan fiction in the face of actual canon that comes up in these discussions. Madoka's fate was described as worse than death. It's a fate that Urobuchi and Shinbo agreed she should be saved from.
>>2039893
Remember that time Satan took all his friends and family and brought them to life and made them all live together happily? Twice? Me neither.
And if you are trying to say the Christian god is 100% good therefor resisting him and/or Madoka is the definition of evil then I don't think I can help you understand anything.
>You mean, reaching at straws.
Not even close. You should probably watch Rebellion again, or at least glance at the material for it. Her own familiars include representations of her dishonesty, self hatred, and love for christ's sake.
>>2039893
I don't believe your baiting anyone, but it really seems like you lack an understanding of Homura's character - despite just about every part of the series developing it.
>Moreover, she also acknowledges the fact that she will end up facing against Madoka even with the knowledge that what she's doing is wrong, and all this because she wants Madoka to be happy. Or does she really?
Yes. She really does. That's pretty much her entire purpose in life, and the end goal to "protecting Madoka" wish.
>So she, in fact, admits that she became evil because of the nature of her actions.
Her actions might be "evil" but her intentions are good. At the very least that just balances out.
>You mean, reaching at straws.
>I don't understand subtext, parallelism in plot, or character development that isn't expressly spelled out to me
>>2039893
>Why are you suddenly bringing up Shinto when that part has more Christian symbolism that anything else? By this definition, Homura became some sort of Satan figure.
Not that anon, but I guess you missed the entire Taoist undertones of the series? Balance between light and dark? The neurotic obsession with contrasting ideologies, color choices, and personalities? Every relationship in this series can be broken down to "opposites attract".
Anon, you can believe Homura did somethings wrong and even most things wrong, but I don't know how in the face of existing content that you can believe she is actually evil.
>>2039892
This, so much.
Fanon isn't canon, idiots.
>>2039892
>There is no such thing as fake happiness.
Sure there is. As one of my political science professors was fond of pointing out, the truly successful totalitarian regime is that in which its victims are unaware of their own oppression.
>>2039917
>>/out/
>>2039917
>Political Science professor
You're just as bad as armchair philosophers who take Philosophy 101 and think they know everything.
>is that in which its victims are unaware of their own oppression.
A case can still be made that happiness is happiness plain and simple. What they lack in free will they make up for in joy
>>2039917
You can be happy and be not free just like how you can be unhappy and free. They are not directly related.
>>2039917
They are happy. It's just that Madoka would willingly sacrifice her own happiness for the sake of others every time. It's not that she wasn't okay with making her wish, it's that it was a wish that Homura, after knowing Madoka for 12 years and having the conversation in the garden, knew would be incredibly painful for her. You can't tell me giving up her family and friends made her happy.
>>2039917
I am sure you wrote a report about it last week and got an A, as well as a pat on the head.
I'm sure your professor is proud of you.
>>2039917
> political science professors was fond of pointing out, the truly successful totalitarian regime is that in which its victims are unaware of their own oppression.
So Homura's new world is literally Amerikkka?
>>2039928
>You can't tell me giving up her family and friends made her happy.
Wouldn't dream of it. Right from the beginning, it was made clear that her wish came with a hefty price tag. I wouldn't fault her if she came to regret that, but the next step is something she needs to be able to decide for herself with all the facts in hand.
>>2037199
I really LOVE that pic.
>>2039951
I agree. And as of this moment, we don't have enough information to make a call either way. Madoka also wants all magical girls wishes to come true. If this is the case, that needs to be taken into account when looking at Homura's action.
>>2039955
But doesn't that just bring up the main problem?
>Madoka wants to be selfless and give up her existence so other magical girls get their wishes
>Homura knows Madoka may not be happy despite selflessly wanting to sacrifice herself
>>2038076
This fanart is ironic in hindsight.
>>2038162
>This again
>>2040193
>Look up that doujin just now
>armpit fetishist
Hoo boy.
>>2040175
Yes. But it's a problem that was effectively only brought up in final 2 minutes of the movie and never explored beyond that. We legitimately don't know how Madoka feels about anything, minus an answer to an extremely vague question asked by Homura.
>>2040193
It says "deja vu" when she's vomiting.
>>2038162
>/v/ keeps clicking the wrong board
>>2040262
>people actually think like this
>>2040262
>This is what Sayakafags actually believe
>>2040282
>>2040320
If you ever hear any of the following:
>Homura doesn't deserve forgiveness
>Homura doesn't deserve Madoka
>Madoka doesn't love Homura
>Homura does not have a single good thing about her
>Homura doesn't care if Madoka is happy
It is just Homura trying to troll 4chan again. Report and ignore.
>>2040416
>>2040428
Madoka should really monitor Homura's internet access.
>>2040451
I don't know if Madoka would be comfortable bringing up Homu's femdom addiction yet. She might want to stay away from Homu's internet usage in general
>>2040452
She has to maintain her image as a pure maiden goddess. Even if she's a lewd pervert behind the scenes.
>>2040465
Can we all agree that this barrel felt bad for Moemura and let her win?
>>2040487
Who wouldn't let a qt glasses girl win?
>>2040487
Barrel-chan is a yuri fag just like us and lost on purpose so she could let Homura impress Madoka. The last thing she saw before slipping into the void was Madoka hugging Homura and she knew she had lived her life well.
>>2040282
In a world where people choose to not vaccinate their children, is it really much of a surprise?
1/2
Mitakihara Anti-Materials
>>2040718
2/2
Did they just make a scissoring joke?
>>2039878
>She already said that it wasn't her intention to put them in that world. Nothing of how everything turned out is how she desired it, except for the fact that Madoka is back in her human form.
Why are you so insistent on this? Did you forget entirely about the scene with Kyubey? It said that not just anyone could enter her labyrinth, and in order for someone to do so Homura had to extend an 'invitation' or lure them in. It is true that this all was done subconsciously, but Homura's subconscious still reflects her beliefs and desires. She--at some level--wanted those specific people in her labyrinth.
It is true she said otherwise, but that entire scene was her fucking with Sayaka, so I wouldn't take anything she says there too seriously. Besides, while Kyubey often neglects to mention important information it has consistently been totally willing to disclose plenty of it if it is asked up front, making it a pretty reliable narrator. Personally, in this case, I would take it's word over Homura's.
>>2040847
>that entire scene was her fucking with Sayaka
If it weren't clear enough in the movie, the manga acts as a pretty solid "Idiots Guide to Rebellion".
>>2040855
Man, Homura is cool when she has confidence.
>>2040859
She melts two pages later, but her cool, sexy persona is great here.
